NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I know most of you aren't fussed, but last night was the European Champions League final.

Arsenal 1 - 2 Barcelona :rolleyes:

Arsenal however had their goal keeper sent off in the 20th minute and then proceeded to take the lead. Come the 70th minute there was (imho) the distinct feeling that they were even going to go on to win. Unfortunately that didn't prove to be the case

Anyways, I feel that the best team in europe lost out to barcelona only because they were a man short for 70 mins of the game. and that makes me sad...

so, a couple of questions;

1) Did you see the game? if so, what did you think?
2) Can you think of any other examples of where the better team lost due to sheer force of numbers on the other side? (preferably sporting examples!)
3) Will Thierry Henry leave in the summer?
4) and will he ever be recognised as truly the greatest player in the world or will he keep on losing out to that brazilian performing horse?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482371

1. Of course. Great game. Puyol & company (=defence) were horrible, Ronaldinho was a disappointment (good effort though). Arsenal was great til the 76th minute, after that they just lost it.
2. I don't think Arsenal was clearly better than Barca. It's hard to say which team was better.
3. No idea.
4. He's not the greatest. (nor is Ronaldinho)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482371

doh! thanks for pointing that out

1. Of course. Great game. Puyol & company (=defence) were horrible, Ronaldinho was a disappointment (good effort though). Arsenal was great til the 76th minute, after that they just lost it.
2. I don't think Arsenal was clearly better than Barca. It's hard to say which team was better.
3. No idea.
4. He's not the greatest. (nor is Ronaldinho)

4. then who is?

4. then who is?
I know I should give an answer. I just don't know. I just think that Ronaldinho is overrated.

4. He's not the greatest. (nor is Ronaldinho)

I've heard alot of BS this season but this will not stand sir. He had one game where he didn't even play badly as a striker and pretty much bitchslaped Arsenals midfield when he move into a wider position and you tell us he isn't the best?

Roll on the World Cup is all I can say.

Just like Paraguay at the last world cup down to Slovakia or something... man sent off bring on a replacement except Paraguay were cool enough to win.

I've heard alot of BS this season but this will not stand sir. He had one game where he didn't even play badly as a striker and pretty much bitchslaped Arsenals midfield when he move into a wider position and you tell us he isn't the best?

Roll on the World Cup is all I can say.
well, I would say that's a British point of view.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/Statistics/index.html

(not sir)

1) Good game ruined by a poor ref. Arsenal sat back and defend for their lives, they could do no more, exhuasted they where unable to stop Barca. What a final it could have been 11-11. The ref also likes Van Bommel way too much
2) I think Barca where the better side by a small margin for most of it.
3) No idea. He will make his mind up before the World Cup and has handeled the affair honestly so no complains if he decides to go.
4) No. I hik Henry deserves to win the award someday

1) Did you see the game? if so, what did you think? I did see the game and thought that The Arsenal battled hard and played well but you could tell that the guys were tired towards the end playing a man down against a team of strong passers.

2) Can you think of any other examples of where the better team lost due to sheer force of numbers on the other side? (preferably sporting examples!) I can! But it's my son's youth team and they played against a team who used their own referee and he red carded a player who is the main defender, after the player elbowed a boy who was pulling his shirt and sadly was a good head shorter and so got the elbow in the face...(the red carded player was my son, who spent the rest of the game in the changing room) My sons team became disheartened and lost by 2 goals...the first one scored the moment play started again after he was sent off. Losing a player always affects a team, The Arsenal did fantastically well to score and then hold Barca off for as long as they did.

3) Will Thierry Henry leave in the summer? Yes, I am sure he will, otherwise why not say he was staying during the press conference, he had the perfect opportunity. I know that there were some 'heated' exchanges during the game between him and the Barca players, but I think that he will be joining them in the not too distant future.

4) and will he ever be recognised as truly the greatest player in the world or will he keep on losing out to that Brazilian performing horse? Hmmm I don't want to comment on this as I am not partisan enough and have no favorites between them....I think that there are several players who could be considered the worlds best when viewed in isolation....I think that they both have world best skills at certain times and both can make dumb mistakes at others. I have to say as a lady...Thierry TOTALLY does it for me out of the two...but that's not a very valid football term really is it?

Well done Arsenal, you played a damn good game in the circumstances and the Barca victory is in my opinion slightly tainted by the inequality of players.

Just my two penneth

so, a couple of questions;

1) Did you see the game? if so, what did you think?
2) Can you think of any other examples of where the better team lost due to sheer force of numbers on the other side? (preferably sporting examples!)
3) Will Thierry Henry leave in the summer?
4) and will he ever be recognised as truly the greatest player in the world or will he keep on losing out to that brazilian performing horse?
That's four questions...:p

1. Yeah. Fucking ref. Olegeur was booked after 3 bad tackles, van Bronckhorst and van Bommel managed 2 and 4 bad tackles respectively without a booking. According to the official UEFA stats for the match, Henry was fouled once in the match. Once?! What match was the ref watching?

2. England - Argentina, World Cup 1998. England would've won if Beckham had stayed on. Or if the ref hadn't disallowed Campbell's goal, and given us a penalty in extra time.

3. Hopefully not. He's a moody sod, and doesn't like it when he doesn't get his own way. At Barca he wouldn't have the team built around him, as it is at Arsenal, so that may be a factor in him staying. I guess we'll find out.

4. Ronaldinho is the greater exhibitionist of the two - he'll try all the tricks and flicks in matches, whereas Henry is a much harder worker, while also being a brilliant player. Henry shades it because of his greater contribution to the team. Hopefully he'll win World Player of the Year at some point.

well, I would say that's a British point of view.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/Statistics/index.html

(not sir)

Sorry, my post was unclear, I was refering to Ronaldinho. I believe the link you gave backs me up on this as well.

He's also the third highest scorer in the Spanish league, arguable the best in the world, and he's not even a striker.

Sorry, my post was unclear, I was refering to Ronaldinho. I believe the link you gave backs me up on this as well.

He's also the third highest scorer in the Spanish league, arguable the best in the world, and he's not even a striker.
oh...heh. I'll just shut up then... :)

Sorry, my post was unclear, I was refering to Ronaldinho. I believe the link you gave backs me up on this as well.

He's also the third highest scorer in the Spanish league, arguable the best in the world, and he's not even a striker.
The Spanish league the best league in the world, where a crap Real Madrid side can finish second?

He's not a striker, but he is an attacking midfielder. His job is to support the attack and score goals. Just like Lampard for Chelsea. Henry scored 27 in 30 league appearances this season, for a team that was playing well below itself for the majority of the season. That's the kind of form I'd want from a player of the year.

Well, all I can say is that this bodes well for the German team for the World Cup. Hopefully he'll continue to either not let in any goals, or get out - giving a bit of time to our lowly reserve keeper, Olli Kahn.

1) Did you see the game? if so, what did you think?

What would have been a fantastic game was ruined by an anally rententive, jobsworth wanker of a referee, who instead of just allowing the Barca Goal that could have been allowed as 'advantage played' and given Lehmann a yellow card at the same time, instead ruined a goalkeeper's night and dreams, ruined what was looking to be an excellent match between two great teams, what could have gone down as a classic to both sets of fans and neutrals alike and referenced to for eons to come.

The referee should have had decorum. It was a final, a Champions League Final, and for his tight arseness, he ruined it instead of letting the goal stand and given Lehmann a warning for his erm...excitedness.

I certainly would not have played Campbell (Yes, I know he scored the goal) or Cole, for the reason that these two players had hardly played in the Champions League campaign, and their deputies who did became superior to them in my view, and were part of the team after all, who got us to the final.

I would not have played Pires (He looked like a miserable sod when he came off, and I do sympathise with him, but Wenger would not go beyond a 1 year deal, thus why he is leaving.) I would have played Reyes.

2) Can you think of any other examples of where the better team lost due to sheer force of numbers on the other side?

England V Germany, World Cup '90

England V Argentina, World Cup '98

3) Will Thierry Henry leave in the summer?

I really can't say, Pires leaving may be a factor. We're in Europe again next year, we have a big new stadium....

So do Barca.....

Desailly reckons he will stay at Arsenal....It would be nice if he did, because if he goes, there will be a gap.

What will be will be.

4) and will he ever be recognised as truly the greatest player in the world or will he keep on losing out to that Brazilian performing horse?

He will keep on losing out to that Brazillian performing horse, for the fact that the Brazillian performing horse (who has a passing resemblance to UK Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett) is Brazillian, which always weighs in your favour when you're a footballer in the eyes of FIFA.

The Spanish league the best league in the world, where a crap Real Madrid side can finish second?

He's not a striker, but he is an attacking midfielder. His job is to support the attack and score goals. Just like Lampard for Chelsea. Henry scored 27 in 30 league appearances this season, for a team that was playing well below itself for the majority of the season. That's the kind of form I'd want from a player of the year.

Yea, and Ronaldinho scored 17 from a midfield position, while being the driving and creative force for the best team in the world.

If you score for your team...does it really matter WHAT position you play?

My son has the third highest goal tally in his team and he is in defence....he just has a bloody big kick.

If you score for your team...does it really matter WHAT position you play?

My son has the third highest goal tally in his team and he is in defence....he just has a bloody big kick.

Of course a goal is a goal. It's just useful to be aware of where a player usually plays when comparing them.

I just saw the late night news and...

The ref can 'play advantage' if he chooses.
Wouldn't a Barcelona goal have been more valuble at that stage than sending off the Arse Keeper?

The Arses goal.
Ah hullo can anyone say dive???

The Arse deserved to get done!

Yea, and Ronaldinho scored 17 from a midfield position, while being the driving and creative force for the best team in the world.
So you're saying that players like Iniesta, Messi, Eto'o, Motta, Deco, Giuly, etc, aren't creative? Ronaldinho isn't the sole creative player in Barca's team, nor is he the driving force - that would be Deco, Motta or Iniesta.

Ronaldinho doesn't occupy a typical midfield position, he is most active around the edge of the opposition's box. Your statement is misleading - it should read 'from an attacking midfield position'.

So you're saying that players like Iniesta, Messi, Eto'o, Motta, Deco, Giuly, etc, aren't creative? Ronaldinho isn't the sole creative player in Barca's team, nor is he the driving force - that would be Deco, Motta or Iniesta.

I guess this comes down to a fundamental difference of opinion about the value of Ronaldinho to a team. While I agree that these players are very good, none of them have the vision or the ability of Ronaldinho. Every Barcelona game I've seen this season has had Ronaldinho controlling it. Even last night when he wasn't at his best only one Barca player out performed him (Giuly) and he owned the Arsenal midfield when he moved back from a central attacking position to his more regular midfield role.

Ronaldinho doesn't occupy a typical midfield position, he is most active around the edge of the opposition's box. Your statement is misleading - it should read 'from an attacking midfield position'.

Semantics. He still plays in midfield.

I guess this comes down to a fundamental difference of opinion about the value of Ronaldinho to a team. While I agree that these players are very good, none of them have the vision or the ability of Ronaldinho. Every Barcelona game I've seen this season has had Ronaldinho controlling it. Even last night when he wasn't at his best only one Barca player out performed him (Giuly) and he owned the Arsenal midfield when he moved back from a central attacking position to his more regular midfield role.
I've seen very few Barca games (no Sky :(), but what I have seen Ronaldinho generally has about 20 minutes per match of brilliance and 70 minutes of vague anonymity. Larsson outplayed him yesterday - the match was heading for a 1-0 to Arsenal before Larsson came on.

Semantics. He still plays in midfield.
So does Gilberto Silva. Are you saying that Gilberto should be scoring 17 a season as well?

The Arses goal.
Ah hullo can anyone say dive???

The Arse deserved to get done!


Have you seen the dives by Barca? Besides we where not going to get a free kick by playing fair, our capitain was booked for being kicked by a Barca player.

Nice name you gave the ref, he did deserve to be beaten :p

I've seen very few Barca games (no Sky :(), but what I have seen Ronaldinho generally has about 20 minutes per match of brilliance and 70 minutes of vague anonymity. Larsson outplayed him yesterday - the match was heading for a 1-0 to Arsenal before Larsson came on.

I hear a lot of people say that about Ronaldinho and I don't understand it. Just because he's not sprinting at goal taking on 6 players or scoring 30 yard shots constantly people seem to think he's having a quiet game. If you get chance to watch the game again (or any game he plays in for that matter) take note of the number of times he holds the ball up and waits for a simple pass to release another player or the number of runs he make off the ball without receiving a pass.

The spectacular is good to watch but it's not the only part of his game, it's not even the main part of his game.


So does Gilberto Silva. Are you saying that Gilberto should be scoring 17 a season as well?

Different type of midfield player. Silva get a nose bleed every time he crosses the halfway line.

I hear a lot of people say that about Ronaldinho and I don't understand it. Just because he's not sprinting at goal taking on 6 players or scoring 30 yard shots constantly people seem to think he's having a quiet game. If you get chance to watch the game again (or any game he plays in for that matter) take note of the number of times he holds the ball up and waits for a simple pass to release another player or the number of runs he make off the ball without receiving a pass.

The spectacular is good to watch but it's not the only part of his game, it's not even the main part of his game.
He rarely did that last night. I can think of only one occasion of the top of my head - when he rolled it through to Eto'o who turned and forced a brilliant save from Almunia. He didn't play that well last night.

But his position calls for that. Fabregas does the same - makes runs down the wings to draw defenders out of position, plays quick simple passes to Henry, etc.

Different type of midfield player. Silva get a nose bleed every time he crosses the halfway line.
Semantics. He's still a midfield player. :D

Have you seen the dives by Barca? Besides we where not going to get a free kick by playing fair, our capitain was booked for being kicked by a Barca player.

Nice name you gave the ref, he did deserve to be beaten :p
OK how about we ditch all the prissy Europeans and Latins from Soccer get them making flower bouquets and actually make Football Football opposed to Feather touch WWE Wrestling?

Just found this quote from Henry:

"we must pick up ourselves up and make sure we come back stronger next year"

'We'? He must mean Arsenal...I'm confident he'll stay.

Just found this quote from Henry:

"we must pick up ourselves up and make sure we come back stronger next year"

'We'? He must mean Arsenal...I'm confident he'll stay.
Henry may score goals but i accuse him of greed!
If a team relies on one player too much then they wll eventually suck!
This may or not have been the case today but hmpf!

Ronaldinho isn't the greatest either.

Ronaldinho isn't the greatest either.

Who is then?

1) Did you see the game? if so, what did you think?

Dull, boring, ruined by the ref and generally far more over hyped than the end product...

The ref made a bad error of judgement, but he was still within his rights to make that call, so I for one won't get at him for doing something bad. He just chose one of two perfectly legal options.

Henry missed two chances that could have killed the game off.

Eto'o was anonymous bar the goal and one shot. Still thats all you need when you're a striker of that quality.

Ronaldinho's first touch seemed to elude him for much of the match. I think he was maybe a little nervous. His off the ball wasn't great and for the 'greatest player in the world' (maybe, maybe not) he didn't rise to the occasion like Zidane did a few years ago.


2) Can you think of any other examples of where the better team lost due to sheer force of numbers on the other side? (preferably sporting examples!)

England V Germany, World Cup '90

England V Argentina, World Cup '98

3) Will Thierry Henry leave in the summer?

I think this will make him more determined to try and avenge the loss. He felt so hard done by I think he'll want to fight.

4) and will he ever be recognised as truly the greatest player in the world or will he keep on losing out to that brazilian performing horse?

His off the ball movement is better than Ronadinho and his finishing too. But I think the 'performing horse' is technically far better. Players like Gerrard and Micoud could be classed in the same bracket of those two because of the vaule they are to their team, the goals they score and way they lead.

Personally I hold Henry and Gerrard above Ronaldinho because they are the captains of their teams as well as being inspirational players, not just because they can change a game.

Another reason for Henry perhaps not leaving Arsenal - if he went to Barca they'd be so good it'd be untrue. It wouldn't be much of a challenge for them to win La Liga or the Champions' League. Henry would be far more satisfied winning the CL at Arsenal than he would be at Barca.

No-one has answered my question yet.

If Ronaldinho isn't the best in the world then who is?

No-one has answered my question yet.

If Ronaldinho isn't the best in the world then who is?

Currently, I would say Gerrard.

He means more to his team than Ronaldinho does.

He's the captain of his team.

He doesn't seem to disappear in finals.

He is arguably as good to watch.

Ok, he's not as technical in terms of show boating, but he's easily as effective.

He's scored more goals from midfield than Ronaldinho has is a league which is just as tough as the Spanish.

He's more versatile than Ronaldinho, as in he can play def centre mid, att centre mid, right wing, right back (Argentina vs. England in Geneva in January), as a second striker etc etc... He's even played centre back for liverpool before.

Question answered.

I would like to point out I'm not a fan of Liverpool at this point.

Currently, I would say Gerrard.

He means more to his team than Ronaldinho does.

He's the captain of his team.

He doesn't seem to disappear in finals.

He is arguably as good to watch.

Ok, he's not as technical in terms of show boating, but he's easily as effective.

He's scored more goals from midfield than Ronaldinho has is a league which is just as tough as the Spanish.

He's more versatile than Ronaldinho.

Question answered.

I would like to point out I'm not a fan of Liverpool at this point.
If he has a good World Cup, he'll be in the final 3 for World Player of the Year. Or at least he should be. Won't win it, because that poncey horse-faced Brazilian will get it, but he'd deserve to.

If he has a good World Cup, he'll be in the final 3 for World Player of the Year. Or at least he should be. Won't win it, because that poncey horse-faced Brazilian will get it, but he'd deserve to.

Yeah, FIFA is so bloody annoying.

Yeah, FIFA is so bloody annoying.
So's UEFA. How else do you explain Michael Owen winning European Player of the Year, while Henry's never won it.

At least the Football Writers got it right again this year.

So's UEFA. How else do you explain Michael Owen winning European Player of the Year, while Henry's never won it.

At least the Football Writers got it right again this year.

Yeah, tis a fickle game, esp when all the top organisations are run by men who are as bent as a nine £ note...

Yeah, tis a fickle game, esp when all the top organisations are run by men who are as bent as a ten £ note...
:confused: I thought it was a nine bob note? You do know we actually have £10 notes, yeah? :D

At least it's not the world of chess.

:confused: I thought it was a nine bob note? You do know we actually have £10 notes, yeah? :D

At least it's not the world of chess.

Indeed it is... edited :P

The Final would have been a brilliant evenly matched affair had a certain referee not made an unforgivable error in disallowing the Barcelona goal and sending off Jens Lehman. However, I feel that whilst Aresnal lost, Henry may stay due to his critism of the Barcelona team and the referee after the games conclusion. However, that does not mean that niether Chlsea or Ac milan will sign him, nor does it rule out Barcelona.
Also, if you are looking for the worlds best player based on impact on their teams, look no further than Liverpool's Steven Gerrard.

Currently, I would say Gerrard.

He means more to his team than Ronaldinho does.

So playing in a poor team makes you a better player?

He's the captain of his team.

Gary Neville is captain of his team, does that make him better than Ronaldinho too?

He doesn't seem to disappear in finals.

How many finals have you seen Ronaldinho play in? I seem to remember him doing pretty well in the World Cup final in 2002, a far bigger stage than Gerrard has played on yet.

He is arguably as good to watch.

Fair point.

Ok, he's not as technical in terms of show boating, but he's easily as effective.

Effective, yes.

He's scored more goals from midfield than Ronaldinho has is a league which is just as tough as the Spanish.

No he didn't, 23 for the season, Ronaldinho got 24.

He's more versatile than Ronaldinho, as in he can play def centre mid, att centre mid, right wing, right back (Argentina vs. England in Geneva in January), as a second striker etc etc... He's even played centre back for liverpool before.

So you have to be able to play anywhere on the pitch to be great? Dion Dublin played most positions in his career, as did Phil Neville, I don't hear anyone calling for them to get World Player of the Year. The two greatest players of all time, Pele and Maradona, never played defense in their lives.

Question answered.

Not at all, Gerrard isn't even the best player in the England set-up, Rooney is. If you disagree with that then you'll have to take it up with Gerrard himself as it's what he said on the final day of the season just after Rooney got injured.

So playing in a poor team makes you a better player?

No, but the ability to carry that team to win the CL and the FA cup means that he is obviously an inspiration to his team.

Gary Neville is captain of his team, does that make him better than Ronaldinho too?

No, but being the captain of your team means you have both the respect of your team mates and your manager as well as having the leadership skills required of a great player.

How many finals have you seen Ronaldinho play in? I seem to remember him doing pretty well in the World Cup final in 2002, a far bigger stage than Gerrard has played on yet.

I'd dispute that, he wasn't that good in the final at all, Rivaldo and Ronaldo over shadowed him by a long way.

No he didn't, 23 for the season, Ronaldinho got 24.

Fair enough, but i will point out that playing deeper than Ronaldinho does, thats still a fantastic tally.

The two greatest players of all time, Pele and Maradona, never played defense in their lives.

Maradona maybe not, but Pele played in defense many times on Santos' world tours. He even played 3 times in goal competitively.

And playing well in more than just one position shows both versatility and skill beyond that which Ronaldinho has shown in my opinion. Granted playing just behind the strikers Ronaldinho is probably the best in the world, but over the whole pitch? Gerrard every time.

Not at all, Gerrard isn't even the best player in the England set-up, Rooney is. If you disagree with that then you'll have to take it up with Gerrard himself as it's what he said on the final day of the season just after Rooney got injured.

Fair enough, I will do. Rooney is an exceptional player, granted, but I don't believe he is as good as Gerrard. Gerrard is a pure inspiration to other plays, leading them and showing them by example.

As I said, he breaks up attacks, creates chances, is more versatile, is a better leader and is easily as effective as either Rooney or Ronaldinho. Overall, the best player in the world for me.

1) Yip. Great game. So happy Barcelona came through with the victory.
2) Barcelona is the better side.
3) Yes. Dunno where to though.
4) He's great. Fantastic.. But not the best in the World.