NationStates Jolt Archive

do you support abortion?

Do I ever.
It's a great way of reducing poverty and crime.

if a mothers life is at stake during a birth of her child, thats nature, we should bot intervene and kill the child

thats saying the childs life is less important than the mothers

Only when a mother's life is at stake(which is like 1% of the cases)

everything else should be illegal

I say abortion should be legal up to the fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, so...until about 6 1/2-7 months along.

I say abortion should be legal up to the fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, so...until about 6 1/2-7 months along.
Why the distinction? Why not allow all abortions?

At all times, yes.

if a mothers life is at stake during a birth of her child, thats nature, we should bot intervene and kill the child

thats saying the childs life is less important than the mothers

But, conversely, by making the mother die during childbirth, that's saying that the mother's life is less important than the child's. How is this any more valid?

But, conversely, by making the mother die during childbirth, that's saying that the mother's life is less important than the child's. How is this any more valid?

whao there is a chance of her dieing, that doesnt mean she will

I do not support abortion, nor do I rally against it. I am for choice. It should be up to the mother and father to make a decision, free of pressures from other groups who have little stake in the outcome.

I do not support abortion, nor do I rally against it. I am for choice. It should be up to the mother and father to make a decision, free of pressures from other groups who have little stake in the outcome.

the freedom to choose if your child dies, that is gross

whao there is a chance of her dieing, that doesnt mean she will

I'm sure that there are cases where it is certain that the mother will die if she gives birth. For the sake of argument, what then?

Why the distinction? Why not allow all abortions?

I used to say that, then got all into a discussion about whether an abortion 3 minutes before labor was still ok. Before the "magic barrier" of brain activity/possible survival outside the womb, I have no problem whatsoever. But after that, the woman has had enough damn time to make up her mind. Somewhere during the third trimester, the fetus becomes self-aware; and it is at that point that I draw the line. Once the fetus becomes conscious, I consider it a living thing independant of it's host. Since that point has not been scientifically discovered yet, I consider the self-survival point a close enough apporximation.

i dont "support" abortion and i would not like my girlfriend to get one

i also wouldnt want my friends or relatives to get one either

but i also dont push for banning it

the freedom to choose if your child dies, that is gross

I think it is gross when some people try to force their values on others. Abortion is far from a clear cut situation, with every person ever confronting this horrible situation doing so for varying reasons and degrees of difficulty. To say that these people shouldn't have choice because you think it is gross is just lame.

I am of course in favor of abortion at any point of anyone's life. I can think of many people whom I would abort if I had my way, e.g. George Bush, Pat Robertson.

J/K

I used to say that, then got all into a discussion about whether an abortion 3 minutes before labor was still ok.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Before the "magic barrier" of brain activity/possible survival outside the womb, I have no problem whatsoever. But after that, the woman has had enough damn time to make up her mind. Somewhere during the third trimester, the fetus becomes self-aware; and it is at that point that I draw the line. Once the fetus becomes conscious, I consider it a living thing independant of it's host.
So then, do you approve of the deaths of brain-dead individuals and the severely retarded?

do you support abortion?

Tsk tsk. You're not using the right buzzword. It should be "Do you support 'choice'?"

So then, do you approve of the deaths of brain-dead individuals and the severely retarded?

Brain-dead, yeah. but severly retarded is still living, assuming they're still functioning through the central nervous system and all...

whao there is a chance of her dieing, that doesnt mean she will


OK, then we should make everyone jump out a window. After all, there's only a chance you'll die.

So then, do you approve of the deaths of brain-dead individuals and the severely retarded?

Brain dead people- absolutely.

As for severely retarded, are we talking Forrest Gump, or someone incapable of surviving without machines? Every conscious simpleton has a right to survive, but if we have to medically "keep someone alive" i.e. artificial respiration, feeding tubes, etc- then I support any family who does not wish their loved ones to live like that. Now, if they wanted to pay the cost to keep someone in a 30 year coma alive on the 1 in a zillion chance they might ever wake up, fine by me too.

Brain dead people- absolutely.

As for severely retarded, are we talking Forrest Gump, or someone incapable of surviving without machines? Every conscious simpleton has a right to survive, but if we have to medically "keep someone alive" i.e. artificial respiration, feeding tubes, etc- then I support any family who does not wish their loved ones to live like that. Now, if they wanted to pay the cost to keep someone in a 30 year coma alive on the 1 in a zillion chance they might ever wake up, fine by me too.
Just checking for consistancy.

do you support abortion?


Yes. But I'm also a Jets fan.

http://www.flagsource.com/2003/nfl/JETS.FLAG3X5.jpg

I think it is gross when some people try to force their values on others. Abortion is far from a clear cut situation, with every person ever confronting this horrible situation doing so for varying reasons and degrees of difficulty. To say that these people shouldn't have choice because you think it is gross is just lame.

ya i also think that going onto the street and picking out a random person THAT HAS DONE NOTHING TO YOU and killing them is moraly wrong. but of course you think everyone has the right to kill someone else, and then you think that it is not gross?

I am 100% for abortion.
If you don't like it, don't do it. I am pro-choice, and I do not see why the hell anyone would be anti-choice.

If you've studied this topic, you'd know that 95% of the people who are against choice are christians. This just pisses me off, since [once again] Christianity is trying to be the father. It's their fucking concern for us whether we burn in hell that leads to them trying to make our decisions. Their concern for whether we burn in hell.

I'm sorry if I'm Christian-bashing, but these two topics are interrelated. Nearly all anti-choice activists are merely worried for us and whether we'll burn in hell. Could you imagine something more contemptous than that? It's as if they think we couldn't handle it.

My God, GO MOTHER'S CHOICE!!!!!!

abortion should be allowed up to, and a few days after, birth. That's how it's always been, since humanity first evolved. If you have a baby you don't want, you get rid of it before it becomes too much of an inconvenience. Just common sense. Sure it's murder, but it's justified murder.

I am 100% for abortion.
If you don't like it, don't do it. I am pro-choice, and I do not see why the hell anyone would be anti-choice.

If you've studied this topic, you'd know that 95% of the people who are against choice are christians. This just pisses me off, since [once again] Christianity is trying to be the father. It's their fucking concern for us whether we burn in hell that leads to them trying to make our decisions. Their concern for whether we burn in hell.

I'm sorry if I'm Christian-bashing, but these two topics are interrelated. Nearly all anti-choice activists are merely worried for us and whether we'll burn in hell. Could you imagine something more contemptous than that? It's as if they think we couldn't handle it.

My God, GO MOTHER'S CHOICE!!!!!!

if you dont like christians, then why do you live in a country that was setup on christian principles? no one forced you to move there, if you dont like it go to holland

*snip*
I can understand the correlation you are making, but can we please not turn this into another Christian bashing thread? :rolleyes:

ya i also think that going onto the street and picking out a random person THAT HAS DONE NOTHING TO YOU and killing them is moraly wrong. but of course you think everyone has the right to kill someone else, and then you think that it is not gross?

That is morally wrong. I have never sanctioned going up to a random person and killing them. I am talking about a mother and father choosing to terminate the pregnancy of someone SPECIFIC, as opposed to RANDOM, who may have invaded the mother's womb through no fault of her own, i.e. rape.

if you dont like christians, then why do you live in a country that was setup on christian principles? no one forced you to move there, if you dont like it go to holland

And how do you know what country (s)he lives in? Perhaps (s)he was born there? And, most importantly, if you are speaking of the supposed "christian principles" of the founding fathers, I invite you to read up on their writings. Most of them were actually deist. Don't buy into the propoganda.

do you support abortion?
No I support choice

-snip-
Christianity is Western Civilization’s greatest burden.

Christianity is Western Civilization’s greatest burden.


Here here! Let my buy you a beer, well said.

That is morally wrong. I have never sanctioned going up to a random person and killing them. I am talking about a mother and father choosing to terminate the pregnancy of someone SPECIFIC, as opposed to RANDOM, who may have invaded the mother's womb through no fault of her own, i.e. rape.

okay a mother and father have the right to kill there own child because they do not want to care for it, that spells lazy right there. our society is lazy, fat, and un traditional

if you dont like christians, then why do you live in a country that was setup on christian principles? no one forced you to move there, if you dont like it go to holland
Lol what make you think this nation was founded on christian principals?
Most of the founding faughters were not christian and they made damn sure to put right in the first amendment a clause seperating the church from the state

Christianity is Western Civilization’s greatest burden.

Yeah...I'm sig'ing that if you don't mind.

Yeah...I'm sig'ing that if you don't mind.
Don't mind at all.

okay a mother and father have the right to kill there own child because they do not want to care for it, that spells lazy right there. our society is lazy, fat, and un traditional

Firstly I think you missed the point. It is not "their" baby, the mother has been raped. Secondly, you spelt "there" wrong. Perhaps I sense a touch of laziness in your English?:D

Christianity is Western Civilization’s greatest burden.

then dont live in the west, u can always go to the middle east

ya i also think that going onto the street and picking out a random person THAT HAS DONE NOTHING TO YOU and killing them is moraly wrong. but of course you think everyone has the right to kill someone else, and then you think that it is not gross?
It may be MORALLY wrong, but there is and there should be a difference between morality and the law. Some "random person" does not depend on your body to exist. A fetus does, and therefore the mother has the right to choose whether or not to give that fetus life at her own expense. Imagine if you had to donate a kidney to a hospital patient to prevent their death; no one can force you to give the kidney, and it would be morally wrong not to donate it. But it is your choice.

then dont live in the west, u can always go to the middle east
Naw we preffer to stay and make the place we already live a better place

Firstly I think you missed the point. It is not "their" baby, the mother has been raped. Secondly, you spelt "there" wrong. Perhaps I sense a touch of laziness in your English?:D

a baby is from a mother and a father, just because a women was raped doesnt make that her baby, she gave birth to it

Christianity is Western Civilization’s greatest burden.

I'd go one further - Western Civilization is an invention of the Christian worldview. In reality "Western Civilization", i.e Europe, is basically an extension of Middle East and Asia culture. The only real Western Civilizations are the native cultures of the Americas, which the Christians raped and murdered. Infact as a European I frequently find myself identifying as Eastern; as opposed to United Statesian.

Naw we preffer to stay and make the place we already live a better place

Exactly- if we don't purge the west of the most destructive cult in the history of the world, who will? :p

Exactly- if we don't purge the west of the most destructive cult in the history of the world, who will? :p
Hey thats the best part of being athiest/agnostic

You dont have to be distracted by an afterlife ... what we have here is all we have so it is to our benifit to make it the best place to live we can

do you support abortion?

What an absolutely ridiculous question. I would have guessed it was yours.

Nobody "supports abortion", but many people support women having the legal right to choose termination of their pregnancy without a lot of moralizing and condemnation from people who should mind their own goddamn business.

Given the crap that a lot of anti-choice people spout, you'd think that we're in the middle of an epidemic of slutty women indulging willy nilly in rampant, unprotected sex with all comers, with the express purpose of getting pregnant just so they can experience the intense pleasure and warm, fuzzy feelings associated with having an abortion. "Oh, it's just like a spa vacation, and I want to have three abortions this year because they feel soooooo good!"

Exactly- if we don't purge the west of the most destructive cult in the history of the world, who will? :p
I find Stalinism and Maoism to be far more dangerous cults.

I'd go one further - Western Civilization is an invention of the Christian worldview. In reality "Western Civilization", i.e Europe, is basically an extension of Middle East and Asia culture. The only real Western Civilizations are the native cultures of the Americas, which the Christians raped and murdered. Infact as a European I frequently find myself identifying as Eastern; as opposed to United Statesian.
Europe is technically in the Eastern hemisphere, and its bases essentially are Greco/roman (which do have certain Middle Eastern influences) and Germanic culture. Christianity itself is an Eastern religion. Though nowadays it possesses traits ascribed to the West, so technicalities are trivial.

a baby is from a mother and a father, just because a women was raped doesnt make that her baby, she gave birth to it

Yes, it is her baby.

What an absolutely ridiculous question. I would have guessed it was yours.

Nobody "supports abortion", but many people support women having the legal right to choose termination of their pregnancy without a lot of moralizing and condemnation from people who should mind their own goddamn business.

SNIP.


I disagree. I support abortion. I support mandatory abortions for every person whenever they become pregnant. Everywhere.

Because I most emphatically do NOT support the human race.

What an absolutely ridiculous question. I would have guessed it was yours.

Nobody "supports abortion", but many people support women having the legal right to choose termination of their pregnancy without a lot of moralizing and condemnation from people who should mind their own goddamn business.

Given the crap that a lot of anti-choice people spout, you'd think that we're in the middle of an epidemic of slutty women indulging willy nilly in rampant, unprotected sex with all comers, with the express purpose of getting pregnant just so they can experience the intense pleasure and warm, fuzzy feelings associated with having an abortion. "Oh, it's just like a spa vacation, and I want to have three abortions this year because they feel soooooo good!"

thats why whores should be jailed, 10 times better than killing there children

Yes, it is her baby.

then dont say it wasent

I don't support it in any case.

thats why whores should be jailed, 10 times better than killing there children
You may want to note that the largest group that has abortions is married women

Europe is technically in the Eastern hemisphere, although its bases essentially are Greco/roman and Germanic culture. Christianity itself is an Eastern religion.

what about the common Indo-European ancestry shared by Greco-Roman/Germanic culture and Iranian/Indian culture? If we go back far enough Europe is just a sister of India and Persia; and the east/west distinction becomes even more meaningless. As for Christianity, I'd consider it basically an unnatural, orphan "religion" (if you can even call it that), from neither "East" nor "West". The people that spawned it, the Jews, refuse to acknowledge it, and most of the other peoples of the Middle East only adopted elements of it through it's later brother, Islam (Jesus is mentioned in the Qu'aran as a prophet). Christianity only found it's place by turning itself into an infection, spreading to Rome and sucking the life out of the Roman Empire. It's not a religion, it's a cultural parasite.

then dont say it wasent

I didn't.

thats why whores should be jailed, 10 times better than killing there children

Your comment makes absolutely no sense, having nothing to do with what I posted. Evidently sarcasm is lost on you.

thats why whores should be jailed, 10 times better than killing there children

Ok, this graduates you from "neo-con propoganda victim" to "troll". Congradulations. Your white sheet...I mean...uh...cap and gown will be ready by the ceremony.

I supprt abortion, but not to the extent that most of the people have indicated by their poll choices. Technically, after 6 or 7 months, the baby can survive out of the womb, as long as it is in proper medical care. Seeing as how this should be more than enough time to decide whether to keep the baby or not, I would not support it after that amount of time has passed. If it is before that, though, they can go right ahead. It doesn't bother me.

I disagree. I support abortion. I support mandatory abortions for every person whenever they become pregnant. Everywhere.

Because I most emphatically do NOT support the human race.

Granted, our species are a bit of a blight on the earth, and very prolific, sort of like mould growing on the outside of an orange.

I'd go one further - Western Civilization is an invention of the Christian worldview. In reality "Western Civilization", i.e Europe, is basically an extension of Middle East and Asia culture. The only real Western Civilizations are the native cultures of the Americas, which the Christians raped and murdered. Infact as a European I frequently find myself identifying as Eastern; as opposed to United Statesian.
Ah, no. There are many ideas which are unequally Western and trace back to Greco-Roman times, not Christianity. The Enlightenment, for example. And Christianity has played little into the reasoning of the West’s greatest philosophers, such as Marx, Rand, Aristotle, Cicero, Hobbes, Nietzsche, need I go on?

Since I've been attacked for using ambiguous language in replying to a similar topic before, I'll try to be as concise as possible.

The unborn child is not a person. It is a human - it has human DNA, human arms, human legs, and a human brain. It is not a person because personhood requires personality. A child cannot have a personality until it has experienced the world.

I therefore have no moral qualms over aborting an unborn child at any stage of pregnancy. Its value should not be judged by its "potential" - we are unable to predict the future, and in general if a woman wishes to abort her child she will have good reasons to.

Conversely, the mother - fully grown, with personality ergo personhood - deserves more rights than anything that is non-person.

I disagree. I support abortion. I support mandatory abortions for every person whenever they become pregnant. Everywhere.

Because I most emphatically do NOT support the human race.

Well, you're in good company:

"I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image." -Stephen Hawking

I find Stalinism and Maoism to be far more dangerous cults.
Christianity has killed far more people in the West.

I support abortions, because I've invented a time machine and have used devious social machinations to ensure that every abortion terminates a future evil dictator. Unfortunately, my time machine only had enough gas to get back to the 1980s or so, so I couldn't do anything about Hitler. Sorry about that, but some moronic political party entering its last throes around this time spent decades preventing any real action on conservation, so there just wasn't enough gas left for aborting Hitler.

If you don't support abortions, then you're supporting the future dictators they'll grow up to be. I had proof, but I left it in the trunk of my time machine and now I forgot where I parked. OH NOES!

Christianity has killed far more people in the West.
In the last century? Or over the last two thousand years?

do you support abortion?

i support a womens right to chose to do with her body as she deems fit...but i myself dont like abortion....that was not in the poll.

i begged my wife to abort my son...and now he is 18 and my best friend,that of coarse is not probably the norm for many,and of coarse it shaded my opinion a bit.
i am ecstatic she refused,but my feelings have zero bearing on a women in a multitude of different circumstances.

i feel it is always the womens choice as it is her body.

one could argue if the women wants an abortion and the father does not..that he has a say,which is a sticky point i agree,but the women has to carry the child at risk for her health and mental health.

1 could also argue,the women should not get pregnant to begin with if she had no intention of having a child....but that is another issue all together.

that said...abortion should not be a form of birth control.

I didn't.

i wish you would not lie

Ah, no. There are many ideas which are unequally Western and trace back to Greco-Roman times, not Christianity. The Enlightenment, for example. And Christianity has played little into the reasoning of the West’s greatest philosophers, such as Marx, Rand, Aristotle, Cicero, Hobbes, Nietzsche, need I go on?

like I said on the last page, the Greco-Roman world, and the rest of Pagan Europe, was a relative of the cultures of India and Persia, due to their common Indo-European heritage. When I read Greek philosophers, or Norse poetry, or Celtic myths, I don't see "the west". I see a cousin of Hinduism - but an embryonic one, a beautiful child that was "aborted" by the coming of Christianity :p (see, still on topic ;)). All that is great in the philosophers of Europe originates in this ancient, Eurasian heritage.

Abortion? I can't get enough of it!

We can use the dead fetusus to feed the starving.

i wish you would not lie
He dident ... you just seem to have problems reading

I support abortions, because I've invented a time machine and have used devious social machinations to ensure that every abortion terminates a future evil dictator. Unfortunately, my time machine only had enough gas to get back to the 1980s or so, so I couldn't do anything about Hitler. Sorry about that, but some moronic political party entering its last throes around this time spent decades preventing any real action on conservation, so there just wasn't enough gas left for aborting Hitler.

If you don't support abortions, then you're supporting the future dictators they'll grow up to be. I had proof, but I left it in the trunk of my time machine and now I forgot where I parked. OH NOES!

ROFL, thanks I needed that

like I said, the Greco-Roman world was itself a relitive of that of India and Persia, due to their common Indo-European heritage. When I read Greek philosophers, or Norse poetry, or Celtic myths, I don't see "the west". I see a distant cousin of Hinduism, but an embryonic one, a beautiful child that was "aborted" by the coming of Christianity :p (see, still on topic ;)). All that is great in the philosophers of Europe originates in this ancient, eurasian heritage.
I don't even think Celts are Indo-European, but that is besides the point. You are correct, the Greco/Roman/Germanic world is a relative. The Western relative. Christianity is an Eastern phenomenon, if you want to be strictly literal.

He dident ... you just seem to have problems reading

i just wish you wouldnt lie so much

Christianity has killed far more people in the West.

abortion has killed more people than all the wars in the west put together

i wish you would not lie

Then why don't you show me where I lied? :rolleyes:

i just wish you wouldnt lie so much
Please show me how I have lied to you

i just wish you wouldnt lie so much
I wish you would stop trolling and calling people liars.

abortion has killed more people than all the wars in the west put together
I wish you would not lie so much

I support abortion and think more people should get them.

Kids suck.

abortion has killed more people than all the wars in the west put together

Not even close.

The Celts absolutely were Indo-European. In fact, the only Europeans who are not of Indo-European heritage are the Maltese...

abortion has killed more people than all the wars in the west put together

Abortion has killed lots of humans. It hasn't killed a single person.

I don't even think Celts are Indo-European, but that is besides the point. You are correct, the Greco/Roman/Germanic world is a relative. The Western relative.

the Celts are definately an IE culture, maybe thats the Basque you're thinking of. Anyway my point was that I personally view Europe, and myself as a European, as being part of an ancient heritage that gives me more links to Asia and the East than to some immaterial "west". We have differences, but they are differences to be celebrated in union with the rest of the Old World, not differences to give us an excuse to keep ourselves seperated.

RTS reminds me of Stockwell Day, a damn Jesusfreak who doesn't believe in dinosaurs.

The Celts absolutely were Indo-European. In fact, the only Europeans who are not of Indo-European heritage are the Maltese...

You forgot the Basque. and the Finns. And the Hungarians. And the Estonians. And the Georgians and Azerbaijani and Chechnyans and Circassians and Turks, if you want to go that far east. But yeh, mostly IE :p.

the Celts are definately an IE culture, maybe thats the Basque you're thinking of. Anyway my point was that I personally view Europe, and myself as a European, as being part of an ancient heritage that gives me more links to Asia and the East than to some immaterial "west". We have differences, but they are differences to be celebrated in union with the rest of the Old World, not differences to give us an excuse to keep ourselves seperated.
Essentially West = wealthy, pro-democratic nations, and anything that is non-West usually lacks either or both of those traits. It's not an excuse for separation, it's a descriptor of a nation's qualities in many ways.

In the last century? Or over the last two thousand years?
The last century.
The last century. I don’t consider Russia part of the West as it benefited very little from the Enlightenment.
I don't even think Celts are Indo-European, but that is besides the point. You are correct, the Greco/Roman/Germanic world is a relative. The Western relative. Christianity is an Eastern phenomenon, if you want to be strictly literal.
Yep. No amount of white-guilt fueled pretension can argue with that.

Essentially West = wealthy, pro-democratic nations, and anything that is non-West usually lacks either or both of those traits. It's not an excuse for separation, it's a descriptor of a nation's qualities in many ways.

pff, democracy and capitalism are current events. Not nearly as interesting as ancient history :p

pff, democracy and capitalism are current events. Not nearly as interesting as ancient history :p
I had no idea the city-state of Athens was recent history.

pff, democracy and capitalism are current events. Not nearly as interesting as ancient history :p
Capitalism is as ancient as time itself. Same with democracy.

I had no idea the city-state of Athens was recent history.

I was thinking older than Athens. And yeh, you can call that democracy, but I think the women and slaves might, you know, have had something to say about that.

The last century.
The last century. I don’t consider Russia part of the West as it benefited very little from the Enlightenment.
Which acts perpetrated by Russia do you refer to specifically? Stalinism?

abortion has killed more people than all the wars in the west put together

Nature has killed more people than all other causes combined. If, as it seems you are, you're going on the 'life begins at conception' fallacy. In the majority of cases where the sperm does successfully penetrate the egg, the fertilized zygote then fails to implant in the uterine lining. This is a 'natural abortion.' Why, oh why, do we never hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth over these 'negligent homicides?' If all women were merely state-mandated to wear specially-designed zygote capture devices at all times (as a precaution, of course), then those hundreds of millions of pre-babies per year could be SAVED (collect the whole set)!

A question for RTS - If you were in a burning building, and in one room was a single baby and in the other room was a whole bottle of fertilized zygotes, which would you save? If a blastocyst is alive, then by sheer numbers you'd better let that baby die screaming, right?

The debate against abortion is pretty damn old, and in all respects people are entitled to an opinion and I'm sure thats why you set up this thread/poll, to have a look at the opinions of other members. People have diferent opinions on abortion, be they the uber neo-conservative views of pro life supporters or the uber neo-liberal views of pro choice supporters, and we must respect them (unless they are completely out of line and support the cremation of all animals held in the pound.:upyours: evil sons of...)

Anywho, to the point. It should be the right of the mother to decide if she is to have her child aborted, and no one else. Not even the government. I believe that the mother knows whats best for her and her baby, and what she does is probably for the best.

And I know I said that We must respect other opinions, but in all-due respect Red Tory States, wtf? "Abortion has killed more people than all the wars in the west put together", Do you know how many wars that is? Even if you were just giving reference to the two great wars, thats still countless millions, I just cannot believe that 200 million+ unborn babies have been aborted, so to speak. Please by all means provide evidence and prove me wrong.

Like others, I support pro-choice. I am not "for" abortion. I believe all babies should grow up in a household where they are wanted and can be supported, not in a household they are thrust upon because others force an incompetent mother to have an unwanted child because of some random religious belief.

If you believe that 'life' begins at conception--that's your perogative--however, you know nothing whatsoever about biology.

In any case, as I said above.. every child deserves to be loved and cared for. The world has too many children that are not taken well enough care of as it is, especially in Africa.

The stark reality is that you can't cannot possibly stop a Mother who wants to abort her baby from doing so. You can pass all the laws you want, but anyone with the will to do so is going to do it regardless of its legality.

That's the way it has been for centuries, and it will never change. However, by legalizing it, you can put the limits we have today--the 24 hour waiting period, informed consent which can help those mothers who aren't thinking clearly to make the right choice.

If you want to save the most babies, legalizing abortion is the right thing to do. By banning it, all you're doing is making the process riskier for the mother's life, which is hardly a noble goal, and increasing the number of households with children they didn't desire.

Nature has killed more people than all other causes combined. If, as it seems you are, you're going on the 'life begins at conception' fallacy. In the majority of cases where the sperm does successfully penetrate the egg, the fertilized zygote then fails to implant in the uterine lining. This is a 'natural abortion.' Why, oh why, do we never hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth over these 'negligent homicides?' If all women were merely state-mandated to wear specially-designed zygote capture devices at all times (as a precaution, of course), then those hundreds of millions of pre-babies per year could be SAVED (collect the whole set)!

if nature destroys life thats a natural proces, and it keaps us in cheque, but when you interveine with natures duiltys like genictic engiernering, stem cell research, pesticides, the moving on animals from different ecosystems... you get a population boom, u get fruit like the banana that will soon not be around, and its a mess

just let nature keap those alive that it wants, and let it kill those whos time it is to go

increasing death of humanness, thats all abortion is

if nature destroys life thats a natural proces, and it keaps us in cheque, but when you interveine with natures duiltys like genictic engiernering, stem cell research, pesticides, the moving on animals from different ecosystems... you get a population boom, u get fruit like the banana that will soon not be around, and its a mess

just let nature keap those alive that it wants, and let it kill those whos time it is to go


So...You are against use of medicine, correct? And war.

I would support Hitler over abortion(Hitler has killed less people)
Somehow, I think you support him anyway.

if nature destroys life thats a natural proces, and it keaps us in cheque, but when you interveine with natures duiltys like genictic engiernering, stem cell research, pesticides, the moving on animals from different ecosystems... you get a population boom, u get fruit like the banana that will soon not be around, and its a mess

just let nature keap those alive that it wants, and let it kill those whos time it is to go

Hmm how about we throw you out into the wild and see if nature wants you to die or not, because we should have no say whatsoever in the matter. Why dont we destroy all our cities roads etc. so we can feel nature more and all live in loin cloths as god intended and get thae maximum effect of nature. Heaven forbid we develop asprin penecilin too.

Which acts perpetrated by Russia do you refer to specifically? Stalinism?
What else?
I wonder why you feel threatened by Moaism and Stalinism. They were never a threat and the entire feud with the West was over ideological, not practical, matters.

You people are disguesting

You support

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%20Murder/aborted_7_month_fetus.jpg

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%20Murder/aborted_by_suction-aspiration.jpg

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%20Murder/aborted_by_salt-poisoning.jpg

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%20Murder/aborted_9_week_fetus.jpg

Perhaps all you bigots should research abortion a little bit more

Children have all organs by 12 weeks, and can even feel pain(its a matter of growing in size)

Abortions should NOT happen at any time

Does that mean if a woman is due to give birth the next day, but decides to have an abortion instead, she can have it? Even if the baby screams while the process is done. You are all sickening. This has NOTHING F***ING to do WITH WOMEN RIGHTS! NOTHING WHATSOEVER! SO WHAT THE F*** IS YOUR PROBLEM! The majority of the people at Pro-life marches are WOMEN, YOUNG WOMEN. I know because I've been to one.

This is the most disguesting thing humanity has ever committed

I would support Hitler over abortion(Hitler has killed less people)

FUCK yeah I support that shit!!!! Thats mad awesome!!!!

And hey, many people do not believe that fetuses are actual people. And shit like that often isn't the normal practice for abortion.

I would support Hitler over abortion(Hitler has killed less people)

Chances are, Hitler would support the killing of all "impure" children anyway. So, what you're saying is that you support mass global murder over abortion? Sounds pretty radical to me.

And I know I said that We must respect other opinions, but in all-due respect Red Tory States, wtf? "Abortion has killed more people than all the wars in the west put together", Do you know how many wars that is? Even if you were just giving reference to the two great wars, thats still countless millions, I just cannot believe that 200 million+ unborn babies have been aborted, so to speak. Please by all means provide evidence and prove me wrong.

Yea you're right, 200 million haven't died

the number is close to 1 billion(much more now)

http://www.htmlbible.com/abortstats.htm

44 million alone in the USA

http://www.thinkandask.com/2005/1004smoke.html

abortion to kill 6.3 billion in future

http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/abortion.htm

55 million a year

http://www.covenantnews.com/russyoung060125.htm

http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/9/26/

What else?
I wonder why you feel threatened by Moaism and Stalinism. They were never a threat and the entire feud with the West was over ideological, not practical, matters.
I don't feel threatened by them. They are simply ideologies whose founders have immense death tolls on their hands.

That said, how would Stalinism be linked to Christianity? Even if it were to be that the perpetrators of the murders were Christian, it was not Christianity itself that led them to commit these murders. This was not a case of the Vatican ordering countless deaths, or the Bible being invoked as their point of reference. Religion is often a tool used to excuse vile actions, but it is by no means the cause.

I just cannot believe that 200 million+ unborn babies have been aborted, so to speak. Please by all means provide evidence and prove me wrong.

http://www.htmlbible.com/abortstats.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

Hmm how about we throw you out into the wild and see if nature wants you to die or not, because we should have no say whatsoever in the matter. Why dont we destroy all our cities roads etc. so we can feel nature more and all live in loin cloths as god intended and get thae maximum effect of nature. Heaven forbid we develop asprin penecilin too.

hippy

Chances are, Hitler would support the killing of all "impure" children anyway. So, what you're saying is that you support mass global murder over abortion? Sounds pretty radical to me.

abortion IS mass-murder if you haven't realized by now

1 billion to 12 million senseless deaths

even all wars + holocaust + communism combined = less deaths than abortion

Yea you're right, 200 million haven't died

the number is close to 1 billion(much more now)

http://www.htmlbible.com/abortstats.htm

44 million alone in the USA

http://www.thinkandask.com/2005/1004smoke.html

abortion to kill 6.3 billion in future

http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/abortion.htm

55 million a year

http://www.covenantnews.com/russyoung060125.htm

http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/9/26/

Good job linking your sources to jesus-based websites.

hippy
You suffer from a severe lack of perception.

Good job linking your sources to jesus-based websites.

good job at being a jackass

hippy
No, silly, a hippy wouldn't use aspirin. Hippies forgo capitalist medicines in favor of natural herbal remedies that worked so well in the times before technology and the evils of industrialization.

abortion IS mass-murder if you haven't realized by now

1 billion to 12 million senseless deaths

even all wars + holocaust + communism combined = less deaths than abortion

WOAH!!!!!! Hold it! 1 billion to 12 million!?!?!? Thats quite the range. And, are you saying all wars in the last century? Even so, though, you are wrong for quite a bit of that range of numbers.

good job at being a jackass
Jealous that he might steal your position?

You suffer from a severe lack of perception.

you have a warped view on society since you are a homosexual that supports harvesting baby parts in abortion clinics (which they do)

you have a warped view on society since you are a homosexual that supports harvesting baby parts in abortion clinics (which they do)
Wow, maybe you are perceptive after all. I am a homosexual. However, it is you, dear sir, who suffers from the warped view.

abortion IS mass-murder if you haven't realized by now


No court of law seems to agree with you.

Your use of the word "murder" is sensationalist garbage.

"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"
-Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

Jealous that he might steal your position?

ya once in a while i like to be jealous, sometimes i wish i was that person killing babies, but then i remembe that i never think that

http://www.htmlbible.com/abortstats.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

Jesus-based web sources are very credible :rolleyes:

hippy

Actually no, I'm not. For one thing, I strongly support the right to bear arms. I was just trying to speak to you in a languge you understand and try to show you how stupid your argument really was. And in case you are truely stupid, I'M NOT A HIPPY

ya once in a while i like to be jealous, sometimes i wish i was that person killing babies, but then i remembe that i never think that
You see what happens when you become a Christian fundamentalist? Where in the Bible did Jesus say capitalization was a sin?

ya once in a while i like to be jealous, sometimes i wish i was that person killing babies, but then i remembe that i never think that
How then, would abortion amount to the death of babies?

Actually no, I'm not. For one thing, I strongly support the right to bear arms. I was just trying to speak to you in a languge you understand and try to show you how stupid your argument really was. And in case you are truely stupid, I'M NOT A HIPPY
http://www.bustedtees.com/shirt/secondamendment/male
:D

you have a warped view on society since you are a homosexual that supports harvesting baby parts in abortion clinics (which they do)Your views on society are quite pre-historic.

This issue is one that people hold so dear to their hearts that they don't listen to logical reasoning, and thus there is no chance of changing other people's opinions.

So..

Stop arguing about it. You are never going to change anybody else's mind.

But what you SHOULD know is that abortions will continue whether or not it is legal, because they are an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of a woman's poor planning, poor judgment or unavoidable, blameless circumstance.

I repeat:

Stop arguing about it. You are never going to change anybody else's mind.

Jesus-based web sources are very credible :rolleyes:

I don't think it's fair to call those "Jesus-based." Conservative American Christians don't really have a monopoly on What Jesus Would Do anymore than anyone else does.

You see what happens when you become a Christian fundamentalist? Where in the Bible did Jesus say capitalization was a sin?

i am not a christian fundementalist, never said i was

heres one for the god-less communists on here

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

http://www.gargaro.com/abortion/alt.html

http://www.gargaro.com/noabort.html

http://www.l4l.org/library/cathchoi.html

http://www.geocities.com/capitolHill/Parliament/8383/atheist.html

http://www.compleatheretic.com/safari/gargaro1999.html

And just for the record, I'm not even that religious. More agnostic than anything. I figured out that it's wrong, perhaps all of you will too. Going to a pro-life parade is what makes all the change

This issue is one that people hold so dear to their hearts that they don't listen to logical reasoning, and thus there is no chance of changing other people's opinions.

So..

Stop arguing about it. You are never going to change anybody else's mind.

But what you SHOULD know is that abortions will continue whether or not it is legal, because they are an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of a woman's poor planning, poor judgment or unavoidable, blameless circumstance.

I repeat:

Stop arguing about it. You are never going to change anybody else's mind.

You are resorting to a thing called "logic", which does not exist in General.

good job at being a jackassCall: 1-800-WAA-AAAH

I don't think it's fair to call those "Jesus-based." Conservative American Christians don't really have a monopoly on What Jesus Would Do anymore than anyone else does.
Too true.

Call: 1-800-WAA-AAAH

call 1-800-EAT-SHIT

Stop arguing about it. You are never going to change anybody else's mind.

Wooh! Thanks for saying that. Otherwise, you know, people might continue to argue about abortion here, there, everywhere. Now, I'm sure people will realize the futility and all arguments and discussion will cease. Thank God for you! ;)

Going to a pro-life parade is what makes all the change

It's called "indoctrination". Propoganda to the point of brainwashing.
Scientologists, Nazis, Pro-Lifer's, Heaven's Gate, etc...they all use the same thing.

I don't think it's fair to call those "Jesus-based." Conservative American Christians don't really have a monopoly on What Jesus Would Do anymore than anyone else does.Hmmm, good point.

call 1-800-EAT-SHIT

OMGLOL UR SO FUNNY.

You're a prime example of how this world has too many people and too many stupid parents are giving birth to too many brain-dead children that shoulda been aborted.

call 1-800-EAT-SHITLOL, are you mad at me or something. :p

Wow, pro-lifers use PROPAGANDA?! Just when I thought left-wingers couldn't get anymore stupid. If there was one abortion in this world I would allow, it would of been yours. Too late for that

I don't support abortion. I support a woman's right to support or not support abortion as she personally chooses without anyone else's support or lack of support interfering with her decision to support or not support it.

I just wanted to see how many times I could fit the word "support" in there.

i am not a christian fundementalist, never said i was

Are you a christian?

Wooh! Thanks for saying that. Otherwise, you know, people might continue to argue about abortion here, there, everywhere. Now, I'm sure people will realize the futility and all arguments and discussion will cease. Thank God for you! ;)

I am just pointing out the obvious. What do you hope to gain by endless arguing back and forth on a stance that will be eternally controversial?

The sad reality is that the "conservatives who oppose Abortion" have no chance of winning, because they can't control 2,600,000,000 women's actions.

The "pro-choice" side automatically wins because fundamentally it is a choice that nobody can stop a woman from making.

You have to accept the limitations of reality and a free society. Part of freedom is the freedom to make careless and stupid decisions. All the "conservative pro-Life" side can do is try to educate people. Not argue with people they can't defeat.

I don't support abortion. I support a woman's right to support or not support abortion as she personally chooses without anyone else's support or lack of support interfering with her decision to support or not support it.

I just wanted to see how many times I could fit the word "support" in there.

same shit

Are you a christian?

none of your busines

heres one for the god-less communists on here
I'm a god-less Buddhist.

nice assumption there ^

because ALL women support abortion! and just when I thought everyone here passed grade 1 and learnt that a small minority doesn't speak for all

the majority of the pro-lifers ARE women, REAL women, REAL mothers

I am just pointing out the obvious. What do you hope to gain by endless arguing back and forth on a stance that will be eternally controversial?

The sad reality is that the "conservatives who oppose Abortion" have no chance of winning, because they can't control 2,600,000,000 women's actions.

The "pro-choice" side automatically wins because fundamentally it is a choice that nobody can stop a woman from making.

You have to accept the limitations of reality and a free society. Part of freedom is the freedom to make careless and stupid decisions. All the "conservative pro-Life" side can do is try to educate people. Not argue with people they can't defeat.
I think that the reason many of the participants in these debates argue is to test their beliefs against logical criticism and evaluate them objectively in response to challenges by their opponents.

Oh, wait. Wrong forum, sorry.

same shit


Do you need a hug? I support hugs.

none of your businesDo you think Earth is 5000 years old?

I am just pointing out the obvious. What do you hope to gain by endless arguing back and forth on a stance that will be eternally controversial?

Most people don't argue to either persuade or (certainly not) to be persuaded. Take you, for example - you've given an argument to stop arguing. Yet you won't gain anything; the argument won't stop. So I have to ask why you bother stating the obvious?

Wow, pro-lifers use PROPAGANDA?! Just when I thought left-wingers couldn't get anymore stupid. If there was one abortion in this world I would allow, it would of been yours. Too late for that

Somebody needs a deprogramming team, STAT!

And watch out, cause you're bordering on flaming. We wouldn't want to get an eloquent debater like you forumbanned. :rolleyes:

I believe the women should have the choice. It's their body, it's their responsibility if they wish to go through with the abortion, or if they wish to bring the child to term. I can only hope that they do not make a decision they regret later on in life.

Do you think Earth is 5000 years old?

NO

nice assumption there ^

because ALL women support abortion! and just when I thought everyone here passed grade 1 and learnt that a small minority doesn't speak for all

the majority of the pro-lifers ARE women, REAL women, REAL mothersProve it. (without linking to christian-based sources)

Most people don't argue to either persuade or (certainly not) to be persuaded. Take you, for example - you've given an argument to stop arguing. Yet you won't gain anything; the argument won't stop. So I have to ask why you bother stating the obvious?

What I'm saying doesn't appear to be obvious, because there's still two dozen people meaninglessly arguing back and forth.

The difference is that I'm trying to persuade at least some of you to stop it. It's true, I won't gain anything from this, however, I'm trying to benefit you all by preventing you from getting yourselves worked up. I don't need a personal benefit, perhaps it's it's altruism. :rolleyes:

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/a/maryb683/marybrown/graphics/head.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/a/maryb683/marybrown/head.htm&h=226&w=303&sz=19&tbnid=b2wjPU_Vg5iDHM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=112&hl=en&start=7&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbaby%2Babortion%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DG
Why do you pro-lifers always resort to petty emotional appeals? Mule fritters, as Disraeliland would say.

NOA blunt answer makes me think you're lying. :D :p

"A woman who was scheduled to have her 22-week-along pregnancy ended at a Florida abortion clinic instead delivered the baby alive in a restroom and says her pleading for help from medical staff went unheeded, even when an employee saw that the tiny boy was moving."

A blunt answer makes me think you're lying. :D :p

the earth was created by the big bang, dumbass

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/a/maryb683/marybrown/graphics/head.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/a/maryb683/marybrown/head.htm&h=226&w=303&sz=19&tbnid=b2wjPU_Vg5iDHM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=112&hl=en&start=7&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbaby%2Babortion%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DG

Hey, do you know where I could get me on of thems? Make a great conversation piece. Also, you know where I could get the body? Wanna eat it. Badly. I think it would be MAD tasty.

And please, don't link to sites with loud shit on them. I was trying to listen to some stuff on my computer when that interrupted me. Very rude, methinks.

none of your busines

i am not a christian fundementalist, never said i was


you have a warped view on society since you are a homosexual that supports harvesting baby parts in abortion clinics (which they do)



if you dont like christians, then why do you live in a country that was setup on christian principles? no one forced you to move there, if you dont like it go to holland


I have yet to see an individual who is not a Christian fundamentalist who holds the above opinions, in addition to your strong anti-abortion, anti-homosexual posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism

What I'm saying doesn't appear to be obvious, because there's still two dozen people meaninglessly arguing back and forth.

And there always will be. Because as I said, persuasion is not the only purpose in argumentation.

You really need to relax and stop trying to control others.

Why do you pro-lifers always resort to petty emotional appeals? Mule fritters, as Disraeliland would say.

considering thats a picture of a abortion, i think it would do well, especially when you support that

HOW DOES IT FEEL??? HOW DOES IT FEEL TO KILL HUMAN LIFE??? must feel good

Personally, I support it only when the mother's life is at stake or up until 3 months and only if there are signs of serious malformation.

However, I do not support jailing women for doing an abortion (in whatever circumstances) although I would like to see some mechanism to prevent any woman to perform over 11 abortions, like some woman did. She was not very educated and quite likely poor and spoke about the whole matter with a shocking naturally. At the time, I did secretly wish some doctor would just castrate her, without her even noticing it...

It's a really tough issue. I agree that banning abortions doesn't stop them happening, just turn the ones that happen anyway into a much more obscure, dirty and dangerous process. I agree that jailing a woman who committed an abortion is wrong. I agree it's really frustrating that a woman can perform 11 abortions, without no one being able to put a stop to it.

Maybe we need some sort of social punishment for people who abuse abortions, like a penalisation on income tax? Maybe create conditions to promote free distribution of contraceptives, e.g. offering tax incentives on corporate sponsorship of these initiatives? A combination of both? Is there any way we can balance out individual freedom and responsibility on this one? Any ideas on how we can not jail women for abortions, but not allow another to commit 11?

considering thats a picture of a abortion, i think it would do well, especially when you support that

HOW DOES IT FEEL??? HOW DOES IT FEEL TO KILL HUMAN LIFE??? must feel good
I feel...nothing. Your point?

That is not human life.

And there always will be. Because as I said, persuasion is not the only purpose in argumentation.

You really need to relax and stop trying to control others.

I am not trying to control anybody else.. I am trying to open the eyes of people who are causing themselves unnecessary grief.

"A woman who was scheduled to have her 22-week-along pregnancy ended at a Florida abortion clinic instead delivered the baby alive in a restroom and says her pleading for help from medical staff went unheeded, even when an employee saw that the tiny boy was moving."

Logical Fallacy. Argumentum ad Misericordiam, to be exact.

For the record, I am agnostic, I haven't decided if I will dedicate my life to something that I'm not entirely convinced truly exists. Many people have different views, like some who believe that "life begins at conception" or "its the mothers right" <(ppl like me) At the risk of coming off as a heartless S.O.B, this all comes down to belief and how you all were brought up. If you were brought up as a Christian, then yes, of course you wont support abortion, as all life is precious and so on. If you were brought up an atheist into this world full of violence and hate and greed and where human lives are wasted every day, then you'll probably see the unborn baby as "just a piece of meat" <(not my quote, got it from other abortion thread) and as that, can be expended for the greater good of the mother, world, etc...

As to the guy to says that its not the mothers right to decide whether her unborn baby be "killed", whos right is it then? The unborn baby cannot speak out for itself, so therefore it seems logical that the mother should decide. No one else has the right to say if you baby lives or dies, as Im damn opposed to the government judging who gets to live or die, and I doubt its God/Allah/Jehovah/Buddha's choice, as they ain't gonna get off there cloud or whatever else they sit on, to make the choice as if the "fetus/zygote/baby" is allowed to live or die.

I have yet to see an individual who is not a Christian fundamentalist who holds the above opinions, in addition to your strong anti-abortion, anti-homosexual posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism

thanks for the link except that i am not a fundememtilist, i am a anglo catholic, there is no protisitant faith more conseervitive than us

For the record, I am agnostic, I haven't decided if I will dedicate my life to something that I'm not entirely convinced truly exists. Many people have different views, like some who believe that "life begins at conception" or "its the mothers right" <(ppl like me) At the risk of coming off as a heartless S.O.B, this all comes down to belief and how you all were brought up. If you were brought up as a Christian, then yes, of course you wont support abortion, as all life is precious and so on. If you were brought up an atheist into this world full of violence and hate and greed and where human lives are wasted every day, then you'll probably see the unborn baby as "just a piece of meat" <(not my quote, got it from other abortion thread) and as that, can be expended for the greater good of the mother, world, etc...
I am Christian, Catholic even, and I am pro-choice.

considering thats a picture of a abortion, i think it would do well, especially when you support that

HOW DOES IT FEEL??? HOW DOES IT FEEL TO KILL HUMAN LIFE??? must feel good

It must feel good, if people do it so often.

I feel...nothing. Your point?

That is not human life.

how not?

I am not trying to control anybody else.. I am trying to open the eyes of people who are causing themselves unnecessary grief.

You were trying to stop the argument completely, that's more or less trying to control other people. Failing, true, but still trying. I think that winds up causing you more grief than benefiting anyone else. People want to argue, let 'em.

how not?
It has neither the consciousness nor the form required. It is an unformed foetus. Nothing more.

I am Christian, Catholic even, and I am pro-choice.

you cant be roman catholic and deny the popes beliefs, LIAR

You were trying to stop the argument completely, that's more or less trying to control other people. Failing, true, but still trying. I think that winds up causing you more grief than benefiting anyone else. People want to argue, let 'em.

Must you sound so condescending? I am not seeking to control, I am seeking to persuade. There is a distinct difference.

If I wanted to control, I'd be trying to use some kind of force, of which I have none. What you seem to think I'm doing and what I am doing are two different things, and have no bearing on one another.

In any case, fine. Want to argue? Do it until you're "blue in the hands."

you cant be roman catholic and deny the popes beliefs, LIAR
Why can I not?

It has neither the consciousness nor the form required. It is an unformed foetus. Nothing more.

after 12 weeks it can feel

you cant be roman catholic and deny the popes beliefs, LIAR

I think that's a matter of personal choice.

It's like saying you can't be American without supporting Bush. It's rediculous.

nice assumption there ^

because ALL women support abortion! and just when I thought everyone here passed grade 1 and learnt that a small minority doesn't speak for all

the majority of the pro-lifers ARE women, REAL women, REAL mothers

Where are you coming up with these numbers?


The sad reality is that the "conservatives who oppose Abortion" have no chance of winning, because they can't control 2,600,000,000 women's actions.

I dont think that Ashliana meant that all the women were choosing abortions. The message was that these women's actions can't be controlled regardless of if they choose abortions or not. What exactly do you mean by REAL women and REAL mothers anyway? I know plenty of REAL women, REAL mothers and REAL damn people who support abortions too. So whats your point? Because I assume that even if ALL women regardless of if they support abortions or not would enjoy some civil rights.... :headbang:

you cant be roman catholic and deny the popes beliefs, LIAROne word:

Secularism

There are exceptions to "brought up christian = no abortion" but Im talking about as its more likely that if u were broght up in a religious household then u would be more likely to be anti abortion than pro abortion.

after 12 weeks it can feel
Aww, that brings a tear to my eye. Sorry. It is not human.

Must you sound so condescending?

Pretty much, yes.

if a mothers life is at stake during a birth of her child, thats nature, we should bot intervene and kill the child

thats saying the childs life is less important than the mothers

You're sacrificing someone. It's a binary proposition: Someone will die. You illegalize it, and you have elected to kill the mother. You legalize it, and you have elected to kill the fetus. I fall on the latter side because a) the mother is a conscious, intelligent, emotion/sensation-feeling person, whereas an embryo is cerebrally only minimally developed even in the latter trimester and in most of the first trimester it doesn't even have enough differentiated tissues to be anything but a lump of generic cells, b) the embryo is effectively a freeloader in the body of a human being who has a right to self-control, and c) the former option is a restriction of the basic right of defensive self-preservation, of volitional action on the part of a conscious actor to sustain its own life, which is equivalent to making it illegal to fight back against someone trying to knife you.

thanks for the link except that i am not a fundememtilist, i am a anglo catholic, there is no protisitant faith more conseervitive than us
Among Christian denominations, conservatism and fundamentalism are directly related. The same with Catholics: some Catholics are more liberal than others, some are more conservative, to the point where they might be considered fundamentalist.

after 12 weeks it can feel

So can cattle. So if you believe that anything that can feel pain must not be killed are you a vegetarian? Personally, until it's higher brain functions start, it is just that, an it, not a person.

I am pro-choice, and I do not see why the hell anyone would be anti-choice.

I am pro-life, and I do not see why the hell anyone would be anti-life. :rolleyes:

Hey guys. Jesus here.

I'd read the entire thread, but I know everything, so it would just be a waste of my eternal time. Plus, I've got souls to save.

Anyway, abortion, huh? It's in the Bible, guys. 11th commandment. "Thou shalt not have an abortion." Pretty straightforward. Can't believe you guys missed that.

Well, thanks for listening. I'm off to go do some more sitting at Dad's right hand. See you later (or sooner, for some of you).

I am pro-life, and I do not see why the hell anyone would be anti-life. :rolleyes:

After one has seen Regis and Kelly one can't help but be anti-life.

you cant be roman catholic and deny the popes beliefs, LIAR
That's Catholic doctrine, not necessarily the Pope's beliefs (although the two are usually the same).

And, speaking of which, I doubt the Pope would approve of your homophobic behavior. According to the Church's teachings, homosexual acts are sins but being homosexual is not.

Hey guys. Jesus here.

I'd read the entire thread, but I know everything, so it would just be a waste of my eternal time. Plus, I've got souls to save.

Anyway, abortion, huh? It's in the Bible, guys. 11th commandment. "Thou shalt not have an abortion." Pretty straightforward. Can't believe you guys missed that.

So, which Bible did you read? The one with the Apostle Phelp's ever so illuminating Gospels?

Hey guys. Jesus here.

I'd read the entire thread, but I know everything, so it would just be a waste of my eternal time. Plus, I've got souls to save.

Anyway, abortion, huh? It's in the Bible, guys. 11th commandment. "Thou shalt not have an abortion." Pretty straightforward. Can't believe you guys missed that.

Well, thanks for listening. I'm off to go do some more sitting at Dad's right hand. See you later (or sooner, for some of you).
At last, the Second Coming.

So can cattle. So if you believe that anything that can feel pain must not be killed are you a vegetarian? Personally, until it's higher brain functions start, it is just that, an it, not a person.
Indeed.

Hey guys. Jesus here.

I'd read the entire thread, but I know everything, so it would just be a waste of my eternal time. Plus, I've got souls to save.

Anyway, abortion, huh? It's in the Bible, guys. 11th commandment. "Thou shalt not have an abortion." Pretty straightforward. Can't believe you guys missed that.

Well, thanks for listening. I'm off to go do some more sitting at Dad's right hand. See you later (or sooner, for some of you).Sorry dude, NS is not Jesusland.

I'm in favor of a variable time when abortions are possible.

For most cases, the cutoff would be five minutes prior to birth.

For the child of fundie christians, termination of the pregancy would be manditory. For those who slip under the radar, if they turn out to be fundies, post-birth abortion would be a viable option up to age seventy. Then it's no longer called an abortion, but "assisted non-voluntary suicide" and will be an option in community service requirements.

Thus, all of the United States' problems would be solved.


And don't bother saying it. I know I'm an asshole. It's my job.

So, which Bible did you read? The one with the Apostle Phelp's ever so illuminating Gospels?
Hey, I picked all the Apostles, and I dont think Phelp was one. Could be wrong though. After all, you're a forum poster, and I'm just Jesus. Whatever you say.

placing responsibilities of another child without first considering adoption is one of the most selfish acts people make

That's Catholic doctrine, not necessarily the Pope's beliefs (although the two are usually the same).

And, speaking of which, I doubt the Pope would approve of your homophobic behavior. According to the Church's teachings, homosexual acts are sins but being homosexual is not.
Nevermind the Pope. Jesus would have a hard time swallowing the crap this guy is preaching as "Christian" doctrine.

Hey, I picked all the Apostles, and I dont think Phelp was one. Could be wrong though. After all, you're a forum poster, and I'm just Jesus. Whatever you say.
So, did Da Vinci have a code or not?!?

Hey, I picked all the Apostles, and I dont think Phelp was one. Could be wrong though. After all, you're a forum poster, and I'm just Jesus. Whatever you say.

Quiet, or I'll convert to Catholicism and eat you.

So, did Da Vinci have a code or not?!?
No, that was the 12th commandment: "Thou shalt not read fiction, nor shalt thou watch any movies based on said fiction." It's really pretty simple. I don't see where the argument is.

Mary Magdalene was hot, though.

Every child has a right to life, even one that was a product of rape or Sexual assault.

I checked the box "Only in the event it's a threat to the mothers life".

Mary Magdalene was hot, though.

Thus the question is... Did you smite that ass?

No, that was the 12th commandment: "Thou shalt not read fiction, nor shalt thou watch any movies based on said fiction." It's really pretty simple. I don't see where the argument is.

Mary Magdalene was hot, though.
Ok, so since you're all knowing, can you give us the lowdown on the possibility of faster than light travel, cold fusion, peace in the middle east, etc?

Indeed.
Ok point.

Now round three.

Do you belive that I shouldn't be allowed to eat meat? And, do you believe that since the expansion if citys and suburbs encroaches on forests and therefore harms animals should we either A) syop further expansion at whatever cost and force the rest of the world to do the same, or B) you believe we should destroy all of our cities so to give the natual wildlife more room.

Lastly, since you misunderstood my sarcasm the first time, I do not support A or B, i like the improvements that civilsation offers and lastly I am not a hippy

*snip*
You had better address the post specifically to him. He is not perceptive enough to realise that.

Ok, so since you're all knowing, can you give us the lowdown on the possibility of faster than light travel, cold fusion, peace in the middle east, etc?
No way! I don't do spoilers. You guys are going to have to invent a time machine if you want to find out... not that I'm saying you WILL invent one... it's possible.

No way! I don't do spoilers. You guys are going to have to invent a time machine if you want to find out... not that I'm saying you WILL invent one... it's possible.
Did you and Mohammed really hang out and play chess on Tuesdays back in the day?

You had better address the post specifically to him. He is not perceptive enough to realise that.
We shall see, he was atleast preceptive enough to notice the last two times. So you have to give him credit for that.

Thus the question is... Did you smite that ass?
And I won't even respond to that one.

good job at being a jackass

You'd better calm down if you don't want to get banned from the forums again.

I don't feel threatened by them. They are simply ideologies whose founders have immense death tolls on their hands.

That said, how would Stalinism be linked to Christianity? Even if it were to be that the perpetrators of the murders were Christian, it was not Christianity itself that led them to commit these murders. This was not a case of the Vatican ordering countless deaths, or the Bible being invoked as their point of reference. Religion is often a tool used to excuse vile actions, but it is by no means the cause.
It doesn’t matter what the Bible says, or the Koran for that matter. It matters what people do.
And I wasn’t linking Christianity to Stalinism; I was saying that Christianity has been more destructive in the West than Stalinism.

Did you and Mohammed really hang out and play chess on Tuesdays back in the day?
At first, but then I stopped. I always started to win, then Mohammed would declare "jihad!" and flip the board. Childish, really.

At first, but then I stopped. I always started to win, then Mohammed would declare "jihad!" and flip the board. Childish, really.
Hahaha, I like you already. Welcome to NS.

And I won't even respond to that one.
You didn't did you?

Ha! You died a virgin! That's so lame, dude!

It doesn’t matter what the Bible says, or the Koran for that matter. It matters what people do.
Then it is those people to blame, not the excuse they go about using or the beliefs that they (purportedly) ascribe to. I as a Christian have absolutely nothing to do with them.

And I wasn’t linking Christianity to Stalinism; I was saying that Christianity has been more destructive in the West than Stalinism.
With that I shall agree. Christianity has had infinitely more time to do so though.

You didn't did you?

Ha! You died a virgin! That's so lame, dude!
You'd best not incur my holy wrath, son; I'll smite your ass in a second. My mom was a virgin. Is she lame, too? Why not just insult Dad and the HS to round off the group. :mad:

I voted at any time.

There is no right answer here, bottom line is something went wrong. No one but the parents or the woman herself is going to pay for it so let her make her choice and deal with it.

In all honesty, it is none of my business what she does with it as I am not the one who will be paying for it.

You'd best not incur my holy wrath, son; I'll smite your ass in a second. My mom was a virgin. Is she lame, too? Why not just insult Dad and the HS to round off the group. :mad:
Ok can someone please explain to me who/what the HS is, why I care, and If he's so important then why is it a faceless usless being that does nothing?

At first, but then I stopped. I always started to win, then Mohammed would declare "jihad!" and flip the board. Childish, really.

You're awesome.

(I mean this when I interpret it as a political joke - not as something against anyone's religion. Just thought I'd clear that up before anyone has a chance to get upset at me.)

Ok can someone please explain to me who/what the HS is, why I care, and If he's so important then why is it a faceless usless being that does nothing?
The Holy Spirit, part of the Triune God.

The Holy Spirit, part of the Triune God.
Ok now why does anone care about it?

Ok now why does anone care about it?
You asked what it is, I answered. If you don't care because you are irreligious, that is not my concern.

You'd best not incur my holy wrath, son; I'll smite your ass in a second. My mom was a virgin. Is she lame, too? Why not just insult Dad and the HS to round off the group. :mad:

Right, a "virgin" when you were born...

Even if that god is your father, would that mean he knocked up a married woman? Kinda ruins the whole "don't sleep with other men's wives" thing, doesn't it?

Which means either that god went behind Joseph's back and impregnated his wife, or someone else gave it to her. Nice.

Right, a "virgin" when you were born...

Even if that god is your father, would that mean he knocked up a married woman? Kinda ruins the whole "don't sleep with other men's wives" thing, doesn't it?

Which means either that god went behind Joseph's back and impregnated his wife, or someone else gave it to her. Nice.
Either you jest, or you take parts of the Bible too literally.

Ok now why does anone care about it?
Ok, I am definitely taking you off the "saved" list.

You asked what it is, I answered. If you don't care because you are irreligious, that is not my concern.
I guess I wasn't clear then sorry. I asked why does anyone care about it? what did ti do that was so special?

Ok, I am definitely taking you off the "saved" list.
Sweet, now i can conquer hell :p

Then it is those people to blame, not the excuse they go about using or the beliefs that they (purportedly) ascribe to. I as a Christian have absolutely nothing to do with them.
Still, the world would be better without Christianity to “inspire” all of these acts. You (I assume) and others would still be "good" people without religion, but would those who perpetrate "evil" acts for their church have done the things they did?

I guess I wasn't clear then sorry. I asked why does anyone care about it? what did ti do that was so special?
It is part of the Deity itself. It is its presence. God is in three parts; all three are equally powerful and equally important. You cannot worship the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit to the exclusion of either of the other two.

I guess I wasn't clear then sorry. I asked why does anyone care about it? what did ti do that was so special?
I was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit. That's "what it did." Want anything else?

Edit: THAT is why I am against abortion.

It is part of the Deity itself. It is its presence. God is in three parts; all three are equally powerful and equally important. You cannot worship the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit to the exclusion of either of the other two.
Then what do the Jews do?

Still, the world would be better without Christianity to “inspire” all of these acts. You (I assume) and others would still be "good" people without religion, but would those who perpetrate "evil" acts for their church have done the things they did?
If it weren't Christianity (or any such religion), it would be something else. The human mind is infinitely creative when it comes to excusing certain behaviours and motivating others to carry out actions they otherwise would not have. That said, some "Christians" hide behind the veil of faith, consciously disguising their actions. In that case, they are "evil" to begin with. That is another matter I suppose though.

Anyway, on topic, I choose to interpret the question from a political standpoint, so I voted for "anytime."

Explanation: I believe that everyone is equal. Consequently, I'm not a greater being who has the right to tell anyone else how to run his/her life. Nor is any member of the government. The government has a right to keep people from harming one another, as that is the purpose of government (according to the US government class that I took a few years ago). Until it can be proven that a person is being harmed (not believed, proven!), the government has no jurisdiction on a person's personal life. And it cannot force a person to give his/her life for someone else's (inalienable rights). Consequently, abortion must remain something that a person can choose until it can be proven that someone is being harmed more than the original person would be.

Following this, my personal standpoint would only qualify for what I would do myself. Consequently, I'm not going to share.

Then what do the Jews do?
Have different beliefs, silly.

Then what do the Jews do?
It's a different religion. They don't believe in the Triune form of God, just like certain Christians don't.

I was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit. That's "what it did." Want anything else?

Edit: THAT is why I am against abortion.

So it was the Holy Spirit that knocked up your mom?

... Was it good for her too?

EDIT: Yeah, yeah, I know. "Smite you."

It's a different religion. They don't believe in the Triune form of God, just like certain Christians don't.
Ah thanks for clearing that up. One last question, if all three are equal why do all the christians I've met only aske Jesus for forgiveness?

Hey, do you know where I could get me on of thems? Make a great conversation piece. Also, you know where I could get the body? Wanna eat it. Badly. I think it would be MAD tasty.

And please, don't link to sites with loud shit on them. I was trying to listen to some stuff on my computer when that interrupted me. Very rude, methinks.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Ah thanks for clearing that up. One last question, if all three are equal why do all the christians I've met only aske Jesus for forgiveness?
Jesus is the one who brought the message of forgiveness. Asking him for it does not mean you ignore the rest of God's aspects. It means you are appealing to one particular one of the three.

Ah thanks for clearing that up. One last question, if all three are equal why do all the christians I've met only aske Jesus for forgiveness?

The same reason why you ask Mom if Dad you know Dad is going to say no, perhaps?

Right, a "virgin" when you were born...

Even if that god is your father, would that mean he knocked up a married woman? Kinda ruins the whole "don't sleep with other men's wives" thing, doesn't it?

Which means either that god went behind Joseph's back and impregnated his wife, or someone else gave it to her. Nice.

No, God impregnated Joseph's fiancee. She wasn't his wife yet. As for the "knocking up" bit, she couldn't have called herself a virgin if that was how He did it. Consequently, God did not sleep with another man's wife in any way, shape, or form. He just impregnated someone else's fiancee. Which could be done by quite a number of clinics nowadays, and that wouldn't involve anyone sleeping with anyone...

So it was the Holy Spirit that knocked up your mom?

... Was it good for her too?
"Knocked up"? "Good for her"?! Friend, my holy rage is approaching it's infinite limit, at which point it intersects the asymptotes, and...
Whatever. Just watch it.

No, God impregnated Joseph's fiancee. She wasn't his wife yet. As for the "knocking up" bit, she couldn't have called herself a virgin if that was how He did it. Consequently, God did not sleep with another man's wife in any way, shape, or form. He just impregnated someone else's fiancee. Which could be done by quite a number of clinics nowadays, and that wouldn't involve anyone sleeping with anyone...
Does that mean we can call the Christian god "the holy gynocologist" now?

"Knocked up"? "Good for her"?! Friend, my holy rage is approaching it's infinite limit, at which point it intersects the asymptotes, and...
Whatever. Just watch it.

Hey, no math in religious debates. :P

Ah thanks for clearing that up. One last question, if all three are equal why do all the christians I've met only aske Jesus for forgiveness?
You can't pray directly to God; you make prayers to ask Jesus to talk to God on your behalf. The Holy Spirit is there somewhere, making it possible, like a divine telephone.

At least, that's my understanding of the Catholic belief.

Still, the world would be better without Christianity to “inspire” all of these acts. You (I assume) and others would still be "good" people without religion, but would those who perpetrate "evil" acts for their church have done the things they did?

There're a lot of things out there that can inspire a variety of acts. Christianity is no different in this respect than any other religion (including atheism).

Would people still be good without religion? Possibly. Neither you nor I know or ever could know for sure. No matter how strong of an atheist a person is, the effect religion has had over the millinia upon the moral and conscience of the human race cannot be undone. We'll never know if rape; for example, would be acceptable had the world never known religion.

Hey, no math in religious debates. :P
I agree. Some think they can disprove the existence of the Triune God by saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, not 1. They forget it is 1/3 x 3 = 1.