NationStates Jolt Archive

Breaking news, CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Video showing a plane crashing into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, was released publicly for the first time Tuesday, a judicial watchdog group said.

The Justice Department has handed over tapes showing American Airlines Flight 77 striking the building outside Washington to Judicial Watch, a public interest group that requested the video, the group said.

The video is available on the group's Web site, according to a news release from Judicial Watch.

At least two tapes were released, from different security cameras. The two cameras, from the same Pentagon checkpoint, show the building from different angles. (Watch as the plane slams into the Pentagon -- 3:03)

Previously released still photographs from those cameras show the Pentagon on fire, but no images of the Boeing 757 striking the building have ever been made public.

The video released Tuesday was the source of those still photos.

In one clip, a police car passes in front of the security camera before a ball of flame and smoke erupts from the Pentagon in the background.

"We fought hard to obtain this video because we felt that it was very important to complete the public record with respect to the terrorist attacks of September 11," said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.

"Finally, we hope that this video will put to rest the conspiracy theories involving American Airlines Flight 77. As always, our prayers remain with all those who suffered as a result of those murderous attacks."

The Pentagon attack killed 184 people: Fifty-three passengers and six crew members on board American Airlines Flight 77, and 125 military and civilian personnel inside the building.

Some conspiracy theorists have maintained the aircraft was shot down in flight, and that the Pentagon was struck by a missile. (Watch fireballs engulf ruined parts of the Pentagon -- 0:55)

Judicial Watch filed a Freedom of Information Act request, but the government refused to release the video until after the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the convicted al Qaeda conspirator who was sentenced earlier this month to life in prison.

Sources said in 2002 that the FBI confiscated a hotel security camera video that showed the attack on the Pentagon. It's not known if that tape is being released.

Judicial Watch is "a conservative, non-partisan educational foundation, promotes transparency, accountability and integrity in government, politics and the law," according to its Web site.

The group filed a lawsuit this year, arguing that there was "no legal basis" for the Pentagon's refusal to release the tape.

The video requested by Judicial Watch was taken from security cameras at the Pentagon, the Sheraton National Hotel, the Nexcomm/Citgo gas station, and Virginia Department of Transportation traffic cameras.

Jill Farrell, Judicial Watch's director of media affairs, said she would not know which video will be released "until we see it."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/16/pentagon.video/index.html

Yes, we can stop. We all know the aliens did it.

Yes, we can stop. We all know the aliens did it.

That's exactly what the Molemen want you to believe.

It's got to be a hell of a video if it took the government 4 years to put it together. :D

well, considering you never actually see a plane hit the pentagon in the video i don't think its release is going to put a halt to conspiracy theories.

It's got to be a hell of a video if it took the government 4 years to put it together. :D
the time consuming part was upgrading the old moonlanding sets in arizona.

well, considering you never actually see a plane hit the pentagon in the video i don't think its release is going to put a halt to conspiracy theories.
We're looking at a very low res, internet reproduction. Apparently analysis on the orginal clearly show a plane hit the building.

We're looking at a very low res, internet reproduction. Apparently analysis on the orginal clearly show a plane hit the building.
Sure.:rolleyes:

We're looking at a very low res, internet reproduction. Apparently analysis on the orginal clearly show a plane hit the building.
Analysis - as in "in this frame we see the plane, and in the next frame we see a ball of fire at the Pentagon."

This is like the Zapruder-film all over again, there is too much space between the frames! Get better cameras, people!

But I'm glad it's been released now.

Sure.:rolleyes:
well, the Judicial Watch people who watched the original say it does! :mad:

Anyway, watch your TV news tonight and I'm sure you'll see better repro of the orginal as well as little pointer arrows and analysis and taht cool thing they do when it looks like they're drawing on your TV screen. ;)

Analysis - as in "in this frame we see the plane, and in the next frame we see a ball of fire at the Pentagon."

This is like the Zapruder-film all over again, there is too much space between the frames! Get better cameras, people!

But I'm glad it's been released now.
It's very expensive to run survelience cameras at 24p.

This one time.. at band camp.. I blew up a banana.

Jeez, come on! The plane is moving at what, 400mph? 500? The average analog security camera sacrifices frame rate for storage space. It's not recording at the 25 frames per second we're used to seeing as "real time". So at 450mph (compromise), it's moving at 7.5 miles per minute, which is .125 miles, or 660 feet every second (2.2 football fields every second). How long is a 757? 155 feet. Only variable left: how many frames per second is that security camera filming?

Point is, it's gonna look like a blur...just like it did. The only thing that proves is that the layman can't tell what it is. Does that mean it was a missile (*gasp!*)? No.

This one time.. at band camp.. I blew up a banana.

Come on man... we all know it was an apple :D

Ok in all seriousness... we all know it was a plane. This is proof that it was a plane and we have eyewitness acounts who knows it was a plane so logic dictates that it was a plane.

This should end the conspiracy theory threads but I will face reality and say that it probablly won't as there will be those who will believe the conspiracies and will want to spout them regardless how many times they are debunked.

This one time.. at band camp.. I blew up a banana.
... Um.... ok?

The other thing it does show is that there was a security guard (you can actually see him walk into frame in the first video) and a cop car right there. In other words, at least those people actually saw it happen. In actuality there were dozens of people who watched it happen.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/legos911

The government IS trying to fool us.

Jeez, come on! The plane is moving at what, 400mph? 500? The average analog security camera sacrifices frame rate for storage space. It's not recording at the 25 frames per second we're used to seeing as "real time". So at 450mph (compromise), it's moving at 7.5 miles per minute, which is .125 miles, or 660 feet every second (2.2 football fields every second). How long is a 757? 155 feet. Only variable left: how many frames per second is that security camera filming?

Point is, it's gonna look like a blur...just like it did. The only thing that proves is that the layman can't tell what it is. Does that mean it was a missile (*gasp!*)? No.
Ah, but Intangelon, my dear, that would be common sense! And if there is one thing people never possess, it is common sense.

That is the exact same video I saw on the 9/11 loose change version 2 movie. :rolleyes:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=In+Plane+Site+%26+Loose+Change

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/legos911

The government IS trying to fool us.

Goes to show no matter how much truth one puts out, there will be those who'll believe conspiracies.

Thats sad

That is the exact same video I saw on the 9/11 loose change version 2 movie. :rolleyes:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=In+Plane+Site+%26+Loose+Change
You watched that shit? Frankly, I can't stand to watch any conspiracy theory video. As I can sometimes be too naive for my own good, they could potentially fool me into believing them for a while. I therefore stay clear of them at all costs, in acknowledgement of this flaw of mine.

Thats sad

Sad that you don't believe the truth? yep that's sad.

Sad that you don't believe the truth? yep that's sad.

I thought you said people would believe that the legos thing actually happened

I thought you said people would believe that the lgos thing actually happened

Do you believe it?

beleive what? That Bush declared war on legos? :confused:

You watched that shit? Frankly, I can't stand to watch any conspiracy theory video. As I can sometimes be too naive for my own good, they could potentially fool me into believing them for a while. I therefore stay clear of them at all costs, in acknowledgement of this flaw of mine.
Yes I watched it. I have a more open mind than some people on this planet. :rolleyes:

Terrorists attacked on 9/11.
Oswald killed Kennedy.
We landed on the Moon.
Aliens are real.
These are all truths. Deal with it.

That is the exact same video I saw on the 9/11 loose change version 2 movie. :rolleyes:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=In+Plane+Site+%26+Loose+Change

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

Yes I watched it. I have a more open mind than some people on this planet. :rolleyes:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

There's also one final nail in the coffin of all of these theories: the number of people necessary to impliment this is staggering. Considering the bumbling idiocy of this administration and its inability to keep quiet a lot of things, do you really think that over--let's say 5000 people as just a random estimate--could keep quiet on this? Could they all manage not to give into their conscience or what-have-you and stay shut up? Really. It's absurd. I am against this administration and find most of its policies flawed(one of the few things I do agree with after examining all factors of it are their tax cuts) but that doesn't mean I'm going to be an idiot and pass on that dislike to an emotional hatred to where I see them as a hugely evil piece of crap trying to destroy all of America or whatever.


Ahem. You were saying?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html



Ahem. You were saying?
You win. :p

Good article.

These


videos


show



NOTHING.

You win. :p

Good article.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or sincere. I have removed your belief that 9/11 was a government conspiracy, correct?

...or did I misinterpret you and you never actually thought that?

Oh yay. I've now confused myself.

These


videos


show



NOTHING.

Ahh I was wondering when you were going to show up. Having problems with the truth?

Ahh I was wondering when you were going to show up. Having problems with the truth?


What truth? That these videos dont even show a plane at all?! How can I honestly watch these videos and be 100% sure a plane hit the pentagon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAaP4Z3zls8

Pause it at the 24 second mark and tell me thats a 757. You know what? If you could tell me what the hell it is Id be grateful because I have no idea.

What truth? That these videos dont even show a plane at all?! How can I honestly watch these videos and be 100% sure a plane hit the pentagon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAaP4Z3zls8

Pause it at the 24 second mark and tell me thats a 757. You know what? If you could tell me what the hell it is Id be grateful because I have no idea.

I'll take the eyewitnesses and the rescue personnel that were there over your links anyday of the week. Now tell me why you have having a hard time accepting the truth?

What truth? That these videos dont even show a plane at all?! How can I honestly watch these videos and be 100% sure a plane hit the pentagon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAaP4Z3zls8

Pause it at the 24 second mark and tell me thats a 757. You know what? If you could tell me what the hell it is Id be grateful because I have no idea.
Excuse me, sir, but were you not listening earlier:

Jeez, come on! The plane is moving at what, 400mph? 500? The average analog security camera sacrifices frame rate for storage space. It's not recording at the 25 frames per second we're used to seeing as "real time". So at 450mph (compromise), it's moving at 7.5 miles per minute, which is .125 miles, or 660 feet every second (2.2 football fields every second). How long is a 757? 155 feet. Only variable left: how many frames per second is that security camera filming?

Point is, it's gonna look like a blur...just like it did. The only thing that proves is that the layman can't tell what it is. Does that mean it was a missile (*gasp!*)? No.

Terrorists attacked on 9/11.
Oswald killed Kennedy.
We landed on the Moon.
Aliens are real.
These are all truths. Deal with it.

Take care to note the pyramids are terrestial and any alien race that could get here is not going to be abducting Billy-Bob.

First: enlighten me as to what the object that comes on screen at the 24 second mark is then.

Second, Its kinda hard for anyone flying at 400-500 MPH to fly that low and hit something as short as the pentagon horizontally. And dont give me that bullshit on landing because you are going about 200 mph slower when landing.

I'll take the eyewitnesses and the rescue personnel that were there over your links anyday of the week. Now tell me why you have having a hard time accepting the truth?

Anyone who believes eyewitnesses over ANYTHING has some problems.
Check out some psychology texts on the uselessness of them, and if you can come back and say they serve a useful purpose, I'll be surprised.
As for rescue personnel, if there wasn't anything left of the plane, I don't care if Jesus himself was there and said something, it's impossible to tell from the lack of plane debris. (Well, okay, maybe I'd believe JESUS... but you get the picture)

Truth? Maybe. I don't really like conspiracy theories, especially this one... I mean, we know planes crashed into the Twin Towers. That would be enough for America to mobilize... why would the US attack its own Pentagon with a missile strike or anything else, when they already had what Bush needed to gain popularity, and go to war? I can't think of a good reason. I figure it was PROBABLY actually a plane, but the conspiracy theorists make some good points, too...
And, honestly, this many years after the attack they release a shoddy video? Even if it showed a plane, I'm not going to believe anything after they confiscated all the videos in the area, and only release this piece of crap.

First: enlighten me as to what the object that comes on screen at the 24 second mark is then.

Second, Its kinda hard for anyone flying at 400-500 MPH to fly that low and hit something as short as the pentagon horizontally. And dont give me that bullshit on landing because you are going about 200 mph slower when landing.

Witnesses and debris say otherwise.

Anyone who believes eyewitnesses over ANYTHING has some problems.
Check out some psychology texts on the uselessness of them, and if you can come back and say they serve a useful purpose, I'll be surprised.
As for rescue personnel, if there wasn't anything left of the plane, I don't care if Jesus himself was there and said something, it's impossible to tell from the lack of plane debris. (Well, okay, maybe I'd believe JESUS... but you get the picture)

Did you not read what I said? I said eyewitnesses AND RESCUE PERSONNEL that were there. Meaning they were there on site. They saw it as well as the left overs that were there. They were even interviewed that day so their recollection would still be cleared.

Did you not read what I said? I said eyewitnesses AND RESCUE PERSONNEL that were there. Meaning they were there on site. They saw it as well as the left overs that were there. They were even interviewed that day so their recollection would still be cleared.

"That were there" does not imply timing in any way shape or form, unless maybe you think I'm psychic.... because "they were there" well after the fact, too.

Anyway, I don't care "when" they were interviewed. "When" is irrelevant. If you have the exact questions and such from the interviews handy, I'd like to see those to see if there was bias subtly put into the questions asked of the eyewitnesses. For instance, if you ask two people who saw the same thing "How fast was the car going when it hit the truck?" and "How fast was the car going when it smashed into the truck?" you'll get wildly different answers. I'll try to Google it, but I'm betting they don't put that sort of stuff online. I already heard about how eyewitness testimony from that day was torn to shreds because of physical impossibilities, so I'm not convinced by it, either way.

well, considering you never actually see a plane hit the pentagon in the video i don't think its release is going to put a halt to conspiracy theories.
Yeah, funny that. Nothing - nothing - nothing - fireball - nothing... this does exactly jack shit to dissuade the ongoing conspiracy theories.

Ah, but Intangelon, my dear, that would be common sense! And if there is one thing people never possess, it is common sense.
Ain't it the truth? And here comes Kazus to make your point....

What puzzles me is why it took 4 1/2 years to get this released?
*scratches head*

That is the kinda stuff that bothers me, not the ''it was a missile!!''

What puzzles me is why it took 4 1/2 years to get this released?
*scratches head*

That is the kinda stuff that bothers me, not the ''it was a missile!!''
As I recall, it was something about the Moussaoui trial and not being able to make them public for legal reasons having to do with due process or some complicated jurisprudence doohickey. I'm not sure that this kind of excuse isn't like Geordi LaForge always making up some ship's component or futuristic particle that he can manipulate or reconfigure to save the Enterprise's ass.

Christ, 4 years to come up with a phoney, and that was the best they could do? It's sort of the "less-is-more" school of motion-graphics, I suppose. Leave 'em wanting more. Meh. Sometimes that works, but mostly it doesn't. Personally, I could've whipped together something more persuasive over an afternoon with my copy of After Effects.

What puzzles me is why it took 4 1/2 years to get this released?
*scratches head*

That is the kinda stuff that bothers me, not the ''it was a missile!!''

Yeah... after that period of time, it could show Ronald McDonald with bombs strapped to his chest for all it would matter to conspiracy theorists... it's too little, too late. Even if they brought out every video from all of the surrounding areas, it's been so long that all of the videos could have been doctored to show whatever they want...
It would have been better for them if they hadn't swept through the streets and confiscated everything. At least then some of the video would have been made public immediately, and everyone would know one way or another.
But maybe that's the point? Bah. It's pretty pointless to debate, since there just aren't enough facts for either side to say anything absolutely conclusively.

As I recall, it was something about the Moussaoui trial and not being able to make them public for legal reasons having to do with due process or some complicated jurisprudence doohickey. I'm not sure that this kind of excuse isn't like Geordi LaForge always making up some ship's component or futuristic particle that he can manipulate or reconfigure to save the Enterprise's ass.

Though I don't see the connection with Moussaoui (especially considering he pleaded guilty), it was the years of secrecy and with-holding information like this that bothers me.

I mean, it makes it look like they have something to hide. And it looks like they were trying really hard to stop that tape being released.... even though it tells us nothing new.

Troubling.

As I recall, it was something about the Moussaoui trial and not being able to make them public for legal reasons having to do with due process or some complicated jurisprudence doohickey. I'm not sure that this kind of excuse isn't like Geordi LaForge always making up some ship's component or futuristic particle that he can manipulate or reconfigure to save the Enterprise's ass.

My best friend lovingly refers to his schemes as creating "Geordi beams" to fix every problem. :)

Let's try this again:


Jeez, come on! The plane is moving at what, 400mph? 500? The average analog security camera sacrifices frame rate for storage space. It's not recording at the 25 frames per second we're used to seeing as "real time". So at 450mph (compromise), it's moving at 7.5 miles per minute, which is .125 miles, or 660 feet every second (2.2 football fields every second). How long is a 757? 155 feet. Only variable left: how many frames per second is that security camera filming?

Point is, it's gonna look like a blur...just like it did. The only thing that proves is that the layman can't tell what it is. Does that mean it was a missile (*gasp!*)? No.

Christ, 4 years to come up with a phoney, and that was the best they could do? It's sort of the "less-is-more" school of motion-graphics, I suppose. Leave 'em wanting more. Meh. Sometimes that works, but mostly it doesn't. Personally, I could've whipped together something more persuasive over an afternoon with my copy of After Effects.

So you feel the Government is capable of creating this massive conspiracy but not able to make a simple video that is convincing? Do you see anything wrong with your way of thinking?

So you feel the Government is capable of creating this massive conspiracy but not able to make a simple video that is convincing? Do you see anything wrong with your way of thinking?
It's not that massive a conspiracy. And knowing conservatives, they probably just stiffed their motion-graphics expert (or worse) and didn't know how to 'tween the stills they already had on hand.

I'll tell you though - I see more than one thing wrong with your way of thinking.

Take care to note the pyramids are terrestial and any alien race that could get here is not going to be abducting Billy-Bob.

I never said they showed up here on Earth, now did I?:)

I never said they showed up here on Earth, now did I?:)

Aye, but I had to be sure.

.........Point is, it's gonna look like a blur...just like it did. The only thing that proves is that the layman can't tell what it is. Does that mean it was a missile (*gasp!*)? No.

Does that mean it wasn't?

Does that mean it wasn't?

Well the people that were there were certain they saw a plane so I'm going to go with them on that count.

Does that mean it wasn't?

Does it mean it wasn't a mylar balloon fired from a rail gun by the Space Pope?

Breaking news, CNN



http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/16/pentagon.video/index.html
Breaking news, CNN


Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Video showing a plane crashing into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, was released publicly for the first time Tuesday, a judicial watchdog group said.

The Justice Department has handed over tapes showing American Airlines Flight 77 striking the building outside Washington to Judicial Watch, a public interest group that requested the video, the group said.

The video is available on the group's Web site, according to a news release from Judicial Watch.

At least two tapes were released, from different security cameras. The two cameras, from the same Pentagon checkpoint, show the building from different angles. (Watch as the plane slams into the Pentagon -- 3:03)

Previously released still photographs from those cameras show the Pentagon on fire, but no images of the Boeing 757 striking the building have ever been made public.

The video released Tuesday was the source of those still photos.

In one clip, a police car passes in front of the security camera before a ball of flame and smoke erupts from the Pentagon in the background.

"We fought hard to obtain this video because we felt that it was very important to complete the public record with respect to the terrorist attacks of September 11," said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.

"Finally, we hope that this video will put to rest the conspiracy theories involving American Airlines Flight 77. As always, our prayers remain with all those who suffered as a result of those murderous attacks."

The Pentagon attack killed 184 people: Fifty-three passengers and six crew members on board American Airlines Flight 77, and 125 military and civilian personnel inside the building.

Some conspiracy theorists have maintained the aircraft was shot down in flight, and that the Pentagon was struck by a missile. (Watch fireballs engulf ruined parts of the Pentagon -- 0:55)

Judicial Watch filed a Freedom of Information Act request, but the government refused to release the video until after the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the convicted al Qaeda conspirator who was sentenced earlier this month to life in prison.

Sources said in 2002 that the FBI confiscated a hotel security camera video that showed the attack on the Pentagon. It's not known if that tape is being released.

Judicial Watch is "a conservative, non-partisan educational foundation, promotes transparency, accountability and integrity in government, politics and the law," according to its Web site.

The group filed a lawsuit this year, arguing that there was "no legal basis" for the Pentagon's refusal to release the tape.

The video requested by Judicial Watch was taken from security cameras at the Pentagon, the Sheraton National Hotel, the Nexcomm/Citgo gas station, and Virginia Department of Transportation traffic cameras.

Jill Farrell, Judicial Watch's director of media affairs, said she would not know which video will be released "until we see it."


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/16/pen...deo/index.html

As I keep posting Psychotic Dan, all these persons are so desperate to have all these conspiracy theories be true, they would just love it if President Bush had anything to do with it.

Its sick, really, really sick.

Does it mean it wasn't a mylar balloon fired from a rail gun by the Space Pope?
There are no rail guns, silly.

There are no rail guns, silly.

That's what the Jews who control the media and follow the Space Pope want you to think. You're playing into their hands, open your mind, man.

Terrorists attacked on 9/11.
Oswald killed Kennedy.
We landed on the Moon.
Aliens are real.
These are all truths. Deal with it.


i agree with all of what you state...with the exception of the kennedy asassination.

i am quite an accomplished marksmen,i have a very accurate .270 caliber bolt action rifle,with a state of the art illuminated reticle 6x24x50 scope.

i easily put 5 shots within 2 inches of point of aim at 200 yards.

i could not do what oswald purportedely did on my best day,let alone with an old ass pos carcano and shitty scope.and at a moving target.
also the first shot would be your most accurate(assuming the rifle was ranged and sighted at the correct distance)
it would most definately not be your last shot,the kill shot that hit kennedy.

i have no opinion on all the theories(cubans,russians,mafia,oliver stones movie,corsican hitmen hired by the cia)
but i have zero doubt that there was no f ing way 1 man did it with a pos carcano bolt rifle at a moving target,from an elevated position(yes that factors in as well)

i have other weapons that i may be able to accomplish the shooting if recreated(60-80 yards i believe at a moving target at about 10-20 mph,from an elevated position)but i would need tracers to adjust my fire,and would also have to fire way more then 3 rounds in 6-8 seconds to strike the target!
without tracers,i would say i would need about 5 to 10 shots to insure a kill at a target moving away from me and some visual hits nearby to adjust my fire.this from a semi auto which is far easier to keep on aim then cycling a bolt rifle.

i will admit i punch holes in paper,as i practice sniping,but i have hunted,and hitting a moving target aint very easy,even with semi autos or burst fire weapons.
let alone cycling the bolt and having to reaim as the targets angle changes is quite difficult,almost impossible,not impossible but tough as hell...then again there is luck.

aliens...love to see one myself

the moon landing....i got no clue,pretty big lie to keep secret all these years i would think..i have read some of the naysayers ideas(area 51 was a prop..etc.)but i still believe they did accomplish it.

*snip*

Good point. There's the one thing. I realize how impossible that is, but luckily, I don't think it really matters anymore. He got assassinated, that much we can tell.

i agree with all of what you state...with the exception of the kennedy asassination.

i am quite an accomplished marksmen,i have a very accurate .270 caliber bolt action rifle,with a state of the art illuminated reticle 6x24x50 scope.

i easily put 5 shots within 2 inches of point of aim at 200 yards.

i could not do what oswald purportedely did on my best day,let alone with an old ass pos carcano and shitty scope.and at a moving target.
also the first shot would be your most accurate(assuming the rifle was ranged and sighted at the correct distance)
it would most definately not be your last shot,the kill shot that hit kennedy.

i have no opinion on all the theories(cubans,russians,mafia,oliver stones movie,corsican hitmen hired by the cia)
but i have zero doubt that there was no f ing way 1 man did it with a pos carcano bolt rifle at a moving target,from an elevated position(yes that factors in as well)
I'm not an expert on the shooting, but I've seen enough demonstrations and other things that have convinced me that Oswald did it.

Good point. There's the one thing. I realize how impossible that is, but luckily, I don't think it really matters anymore. He got assassinated, that much we can tell.


true enough..he is dead and thats that.

i tend to believe the most simple explanation is usually the correct assumption...occams razor or something like that?

i dont care for most conspiracy theories...but in jfk's case..just from my own firsthand knowledge...it just jumped out as bullshit.

I'm sure it's all been said in however many pages this thread runs to. Sorry to be repetitive.

Asking whether the conspiracy theorists will give up now that a given piece of evidence has been made available is a question that would only make sense if it was being asked of rational people. The minds of conspiracy theorists don't work like yours or mine. They already know what happened - and they don't need mere material evidence for that. The knowledge is simply there. And because they think it, it's right by definition. The challenge for them is simply rounding up the fragments of material that paint the right kind of picture to try to convince the rest of us. Anything that doesn't fit is simply misinformation and further evidence of conspiracy.

Gods, the credit these people are willing to give the US Government is extraordinary... Still.

Remember, this is the same sort of mindset that's been demanding a closer look at Cydonia on Mars since the first 'Face' picture was shown, because they want evidence of alien structures. When the high-res pictures finally came back showing rocks, they simply wrote them off as fake and demanded an end to the 'cover-up'. These aren't people who're concerned with facts. Facts that contradict their favoured story simply aren't facts. They can't be, because facts would confirm their story, not deny it.

It can be educational for non-fruitcakes to argue with conspiracy nutters on a subject - it means you have to learn a lot about the subject to keep up with their wild fantasies. But don't for one moment think that you, nor governments, nor companies, nor research agencies, nor scientists, nor eyewitnesses, nor gods, could ever persuade these people that they're not Crusaders for the Untold Truth; the only people who know What Really Happened.

Their persistent inability to get murdered - or at least pursued - by government agents in sunglasses and unmarked black helicopters is no doubt a constant annoyance for them.

" Can we stop the 9/11 conspiracy threads now? "

Uhhh.. no. I'm a fucking conservative and I knew from day one.. I mean minute one.. when I saw it on the news for the first time that morning, that the top dogs had done something. No way in hell that shit would've went off in rapid seccession and success, like it did, without first hand knowledge. The FIRST thing in my mind that morning upon waking up and seeing that shit was "What have WE done" Like I said in another post.. all you people that scratch out the fact of our government having ANYTHING to do with it are really putting very little faith in our CIA and every other intelligence agency we have.(I don't know name .. but I'm damn sure we have more than the fucking CIA) I'd be shaking in my fucking boots if I were you. This shit was planned.

Larry Silverstein - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html

Deny his ass had anything to do with it!

9/11 Security Courtesy of Marvin Bush

Prior to the 9/11 attacks, security was halted by Marvin Bush, to replace or someshit the phone. or pc (internent) lines in the building, This was (3)days prior to the attack, was well enough time to rig explosives. See to all you disbelievers that won't even watch the damn "films" made on this, you are left in the dark. You totally dismiss the idea without doing any searching of your own.. what the hell are you afraid of? I mean if you are certain it's all a kook, then why dismiss it out of hand, or dismiss it on account of someone you think is dissecting the issue on a forum when you haven't looked at shit yourself? Are you AFRAID you will be brainwashed into believing some unbelievable false shit? Don't be skeered.... follow the paper trail. My God, it's plain as day. Sheeple.


http://69.28.73.17/thornarticles/powerdown.html

Larry Silverstein - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html

Deny his ass had anything to do with it!

Yeah because everyone admits on public television that they commited a multi-million dollar insurance scandel. "Pull it" is a fireman term by the way, not a demolition term.



Prior to the 9/11 attacks, security was halted by Marvin Bush, to replace or someshit the phone. or pc (internent) lines in the building, This was (3)days prior to the attack, was well enough time to rig explosives. See to all you disbelievers that won't even watch the damn "films" made on this, you are left in the dark. You totally dismiss the idea without doing any searching of your own.. what the hell are you afraid of? I mean if you are certain it's all a kook, then why dismiss it out of hand, or dismiss it on account of someone you think is dissecting the issue on a forum when you haven't looked at shit yourself? Are you AFRAID you will be brainwashed into believing some unbelievable false shit? Don't be skeered.... follow the paper trail. My God, it's plain as day. Sheeple.


Idiot, 3 days is NOT long enough to rig explosives on those buildings.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/14122036.htm


The button to bring down the 30-story office tower at Seventh and Houston streets, one of the tallest buildings ever to be imploded, will be pushed at 8 a.m., said John Angelina president of D.H. Griffin of Texas, a Houston company that has served on the demolition team, which also includes Midwest Wrecking in Fort Worth.

Crews have been working feverishly this week on the final preparations on work that began in November.

"We'll work as hard today as we have in the last four months," Brian Choate, Midwest Wrecking's chief executive, said Thursday.


You lose.

I don't feel that the WTC buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition. I googled "controlled demolition of a building" and found an interesting page about building implosions: http://www.howstuffworks.com/building-implosion.htm

BTW, I don't think the people that worked in the WTC buildings would have been able to miss this, if the towers were brought down with explosives: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/building-implosion-20.jpg

" Can we stop the 9/11 conspiracy threads now? "

Uhhh.. no. I'm a fucking conservative and I knew from day one.. I mean minute one.. when I saw it on the news for the first time that morning, that the top dogs had done something.

And how did you arrive at this conclusion? I knew who did it and it wasn't the government.

No way in hell that shit would've went off in rapid seccession and success, like it did, without first hand knowledge.

Hmm? What's the point of this sentence? Nothing.

The FIRST thing in my mind that morning upon waking up and seeing that shit was "What have WE done" Like I said in another post.. all you people that scratch out the fact of our government having ANYTHING to do with it are really putting very little faith in our CIA and every other intelligence agency we have.(I don't know name .. but I'm damn sure we have more than the fucking CIA) I'd be shaking in my fucking boots if I were you. This shit was planned.

And you lose any and all points due to the swear words and not being intelligent enough to look at all the facts that point to the fact that our government had nothing to do with it. Due try to look at the facts instead of spouting off info that has already been debunked many times in this thread.

Larry Silverstein - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html

Deny his ass had anything to do with it!

Didn't we already debunked this website? Yea I do believe we did.

i agree with all of what you state...with the exception of the kennedy asassination.

i am quite an accomplished marksmen,i have a very accurate .270 caliber bolt action rifle,with a state of the art illuminated reticle 6x24x50 scope.

i easily put 5 shots within 2 inches of point of aim at 200 yards.

i could not do what oswald purportedely did on my best day,let alone with an old ass pos carcano and shitty scope.and at a moving target.
also the first shot would be your most accurate(assuming the rifle was ranged and sighted at the correct distance)
it would most definately not be your last shot,the kill shot that hit kennedy.

i have no opinion on all the theories(cubans,russians,mafia,oliver stones movie,corsican hitmen hired by the cia)
but i have zero doubt that there was no f ing way 1 man did it with a pos carcano bolt rifle at a moving target,from an elevated position(yes that factors in as well)

i have other weapons that i may be able to accomplish the shooting if recreated(60-80 yards i believe at a moving target at about 10-20 mph,from an elevated position)but i would need tracers to adjust my fire,and would also have to fire way more then 3 rounds in 6-8 seconds to strike the target!
without tracers,i would say i would need about 5 to 10 shots to insure a kill at a target moving away from me and some visual hits nearby to adjust my fire.this from a semi auto which is far easier to keep on aim then cycling a bolt rifle.

i will admit i punch holes in paper,as i practice sniping,but i have hunted,and hitting a moving target aint very easy,even with semi autos or burst fire weapons.
let alone cycling the bolt and having to reaim as the targets angle changes is quite difficult,almost impossible,not impossible but tough as hell...then again there is luck.

It was 11mph in Dealy Plaza on Elm Street, and I'm sorry you can't shoot as well as either Oswald OR the marksman who re-created the shots on the Nova episode where I saw it done. Now, you're telling me that PBS has any reason to support the anti-conspiracy side? Please. Oswald acted alone. Now WHY -- THERE's the question, and we'll likely never know.

Moon landing? It happened. Sorry.

9/11? Ordered by the Space Pope. I'm convinced now.

I'm sure it's all been said in however many pages this thread runs to. Sorry to be repetitive.

Asking whether the conspiracy theorists will give up now that a given piece of evidence has been made available is a question that would only make sense if it was being asked of rational people. The minds of conspiracy theorists don't work like yours or mine. They already know what happened - and they don't need mere material evidence for that. The knowledge is simply there. And because they think it, it's right by definition. The challenge for them is simply rounding up the fragments of material that paint the right kind of picture to try to convince the rest of us. Anything that doesn't fit is simply misinformation and further evidence of conspiracy.

Gods, the credit these people are willing to give the US Government is extraordinary... Still.

Remember, this is the same sort of mindset that's been demanding a closer look at Cydonia on Mars since the first 'Face' picture was shown, because they want evidence of alien structures. When the high-res pictures finally came back showing rocks, they simply wrote them off as fake and demanded an end to the 'cover-up'. These aren't people who're concerned with facts. Facts that contradict their favoured story simply aren't facts. They can't be, because facts would confirm their story, not deny it.

It can be educational for non-fruitcakes to argue with conspiracy nutters on a subject - it means you have to learn a lot about the subject to keep up with their wild fantasies. But don't for one moment think that you, nor governments, nor companies, nor research agencies, nor scientists, nor eyewitnesses, nor gods, could ever persuade these people that they're not Crusaders for the Untold Truth; the only people who know What Really Happened.

Their persistent inability to get murdered - or at least pursued - by government agents in sunglasses and unmarked black helicopters is no doubt a constant annoyance for them.
Hilarious and perfectly accurate. Thank you for the breath of fresh air!

" Can we stop the 9/11 conspiracy threads now? "

Uhhh.. no. I'm a fucking conservative and I knew from day one.. I mean minute one.. when I saw it on the news for the first time that morning, that the top dogs had done something. No way in hell that shit would've went off in rapid seccession and success, like it did, without first hand knowledge. The FIRST thing in my mind that morning upon waking up and seeing that shit was "What have WE done" Like I said in another post.. all you people that scratch out the fact of our government having ANYTHING to do with it are really putting very little faith in our CIA and every other intelligence agency we have.(I don't know name .. but I'm damn sure we have more than the fucking CIA) I'd be shaking in my fucking boots if I were you. This shit was planned.
Aaaaand we're back to the horseshit. So much for the fresh air.

. . . Get better cameras, people! . . .

It's reassuring, isn't it, that the security cameras around the Pentagon are of such low-resolution that a 757 doesn't even appear on the film.

It's reassuring, isn't it, that the security cameras around the Pentagon are of such low-resolution that a 757 doesn't even appear on the film.
It's not like a CCTV camera designed to watch a gate right in front of it, is going to have a secondary ability to pick up planes travelling at however fast. Now is it?

It was 11mph in Dealy Plaza on Elm Street, and I'm sorry you can't shoot as well as either Oswald OR the marksman who re-created the shots on the Nova episode where I saw it done. Now, you're telling me that PBS has any reason to support the anti-conspiracy side? Please. Oswald acted alone. Now WHY -- THERE's the question, and we'll likely never know.


Presumeably because he wanted Kennedy dead, thats the usual reason to kill someone.


Now, I beleive that it was a plane and the plane was flown by terrorists, or at least people wanting the utimate roller-coaster ride. But here is a hypothetical situation that has not been considered by either side.


Okay, maybe it was a missile, might it not have been targeted at the pentagon but fired by mistake? Now THAT would be worth a cover up, that the people who run the missiles accidentaly shot the pentagon. :P

Im not neccessarily a beleiver of any side of this debate, because I have a few questions that need to be answered.

1)If the terrorists wanted to inflict as much damage as possible, why didn't they attack the WTC at a later time in the day, as to have more people in the trade towers. Also, why did they attack the pentagon's side that was under construction? Again, wouldn't they want to inflict the most damage possible?

Some conspirators might use that last part to say that the government was involved and thats why they choose to attack early and then hit the pentagon in the reconstruction zone.

2)This whole cell phone mess. From my understanding, around 2001 it was very hard, like a .8% chance, to get reception in the airplanes. The question is raised then, how did all of those calls get through? I read an article last year that the Airlines were only last year applying a new cell phone system to where calls can actaully be made from that high. If i find a link for that I will post it. It was kind of intresting.

3) I also heard a report of an pilot instructor saying that the terrorist that flew the plane into the pentagon was a terrible flyer and consequently did not get his liscense. So how did was he able to fly like 2 ft off the ground at 700 mph?

4) Why didn't bush get immediatly escorted out as soon as all of this began? He continued to be in that classroom for some time after the attacks began.

If anyone can answer these questions, 'twould be grand.

Im not neccessarily a beleiver of any side of this debate, because I have a few questions that need to be answered.

1)If the terrorists wanted to inflict as much damage as possible, why didn't they attack the WTC at a later time in the day, as to have more people in the trade towers. Also, why did they attack the pentagon's side that was under construction? Again, wouldn't they want to inflict the most damage possible?

Some conspirators might use that last part to say that the government was involved and thats why they choose to attack early and then hit the pentagon in the reconstruction zone.
So we've got some conspiracy theorists saying the operation was too complex for mere terrorists to pull off, and now you're saying that it's not complex enough. All I'm saying is that whether it's a complex plan taking everything into account or a simple plan that neglects alot of stuff, someone will say it fits into his or her conspiracy theory.
2)This whole cell phone mess. From my understanding, around 2001 it was very hard, like a .8% chance, to get reception in the airplanes. The question is raised then, how did all of those calls get through? I read an article last year that the Airlines were only last year applying a new cell phone system to where calls can actaully be made from that high. If i find a link for that I will post it. It was kind of intresting. But didn't the relatives of the deceased recognize the voices of their loved ones? Wouldn't the caller ID function on many phones today prove that it was the phones belonging to the deceased that were used? Weren't bodies of the deceased found and IDed?

3) I also heard a report of an pilot instructor saying that the terrorist that flew the plane into the pentagon was a terrible flyer and consequently did not get his liscense. So how did was he able to fly like 2 ft off the ground at 700 mph?
500 MPH. Also he didn't have to stay that low for very long. And since he's resigned to the fact he's going to die stress doesn't really come into the equation. Also I don't think it was only 2 feet.
4) Why didn't bush get immediatly escorted out as soon as all of this began? He continued to be in that classroom for some time after the attacks began.

If anyone can answer these questions, 'twould be grand.
Bush is incompetent.

Im not neccessarily a beleiver of any side of this debate, because I have a few questions that need to be answered.

1)If the terrorists wanted to inflict as much damage as possible, why didn't they attack the WTC at a later time in the day, as to have more people in the trade towers. Also, why did they attack the pentagon's side that was under construction? Again, wouldn't they want to inflict the most damage possible?

Some conspirators might use that last part to say that the government was involved and thats why they choose to attack early and then hit the pentagon in the reconstruction zone.

Well, who but someone who's been to corporate buildings in NYC know that nobody in the city shows up to work before 9, when the rest of the corporate world tends to get in between 8 & 8:30? Who knows why they didn't hit it later? Maybe that was when they could get all the tickets for four different flights for 19 people on 2 different airlines coming from 3 different airports. Besides, mornings are heavy travel times, and with busy airports comes anonymity so as to not arouse any suspicion.

They hit the side of the pentagon that was facing the direction they were coming from. I don't have time right now to hunt for them, but maps of the flightpaths are available that show this fact.

2)This whole cell phone mess. From my understanding, around 2001 it was very hard, like a .8% chance, to get reception in the airplanes. The question is raised then, how did all of those calls get through? I read an article last year that the Airlines were only last year applying a new cell phone system to where calls can actaully be made from that high. If i find a link for that I will post it. It was kind of intresting.

The fact is that the phone calls were made and answered in real-time by people who obviously recognized the voice. Some of the phone calls were made from the in-plane pay phones as well, not by cell.

3) I also heard a report of an pilot instructor saying that the terrorist that flew the plane into the pentagon was a terrible flyer and consequently did not get his liscense. So how did was he able to fly like 2 ft off the ground at 700 mph?

This is one of the weakest, commonly used conspiracy arguments. Do you know anything about flying? Landing is the hardest part of flying, why? Because you're flying so slow and you have to be precise. I personally managed to land the military's C-5 simulator on the runway when I was in junior high or high school, can't remember when exactly. Flying at speed into buildings was pretty easy, and yes I tried to.

Flying farther above stall speed is easier. And just to keep the facts straight, 757's top speed is around 600 mph, and they hit the Pentagon quite a bit slower than that. Not to mention the fact that the guy did come up short. He hit the ground on the lawn before he hit the wall.

4) Why didn't bush get immediatly escorted out as soon as all of this began? He continued to be in that classroom for some time after the attacks began.

If anyone can answer these questions, 'twould be grand.
That's probably a question for the secret service guys that were there. It wasn't the first or last time people in the Bush administration showed a lack in judgement.