NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195445,00.html

President to call for thousands of National Guard troops along Mexico border, White House official says

All I can say is,

ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME

It took long enough, didn't it?

Immigration is the lifeblood of the USA, but illegal immigration is a poison. I say, keep the National Guard on the border and cut down the red tape that ties up legal immigrants from entering the country for twenty years.

So how soon till the draft? And can I get out of it if my eye sight is really really bad?

Kidding, but America's soldiers seem to be a little too spread out. I don't know the exact numbers, but soldiers are a limited resource, and we don't want a national disaster happening and not have enough Gaurdsmen nearby to help.

good good

So how soon till the draft? And can I get out of it if my eye sight is really really bad?

Kidding, but America's soldiers seem to be a little too spread out. I don't know the exact numbers, but soldiers are a limited resource, and we don't want a national disaster happening and not have enough Gaurdsmen nearby to help.

Well we are really only talking about 4 states. California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. These are the 4 states on the border with Mexico.

Tomorrow, he is supposed to be giving a speech at 800 P.M. Hopefully we get more information.

So--signed up for the Guard yet, Corny? You're always so ready to send other people to do dirty work, but never quite ready to do it yourself.

Besides, where exactly are all these Guardsmen going to come from? Are they going to be the ones who currently have PTSD from their time in Iraq? Can't be them, because they're being sent back to the front lines. Maybe it'll be those guys between tours in Iraq. Or maybe it'll be a group of autistic kids who don't know what they're signing up for.

But one thing's for certain--it won't be you, Corny, because you have other things to do. :rolleyes:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195445,00.html
All I can say is,
ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME

just warning you in advance be prepared for some flak for posting a foxnews story link

seeing how the majority of the people on this forum are socialist/democrats/liberals/ what ever else they call themself these days, im guessing they are not so into fox news

This is the first thing Bush has done that I approve of.

So how soon till the draft? And can I get out of it if my eye sight is really really bad?

Kidding, but America's soldiers seem to be a little too spread out. I don't know the exact numbers, but soldiers are a limited resource, and we don't want a national disaster happening and not have enough Gaurdsmen nearby to help.

We have rougly 2.5 million men we could call up to commit to combat operations (meaning if we were to mobilize the reserves and guard, and leave skeleton crews on our installations throughout the world). Basically, we could probably take on the entire middle east at once if need be.

just warning you in advance be prepared for some flak for posting a foxnews story link

seeing how the majority of the people on this forum are socialist/democrats/liberals/ what ever else they call themself these days, im guessing they are not so into fox news
Nah--the FoxNews link isn't what'll do it. Hell, the story is old news. It's the reaction by some of you chickenhawks as though this is some sort of brave and necessary action when the vast majority of you would shit your pants if you ever were called on to serve in the military.

just warning you in advance be prepared for some flak for posting a foxnews story link

seeing how the majority of the people on this forum are socialist/democrats/liberals/ what ever else they call themself these days, im guessing they are not so into fox news

OH I already know that.

And the Nazz....try commenting on the story. Not all the guardsmen have PTSD. It isn't going to be that hard either. Why don't you try commenting on a story instead of lowering yourself to a character attack. Frankly, it really is getting quite annoying and I expect better of you. I did have respect for you Nazz but that is slowly eroding.

Its ok though, I forgive you.

Nah--the FoxNews link isn't what'll do it. Hell, the story is old news. It's the reaction by some of you chickenhawks as though this is some sort of brave and necessary action when the vast majority of you would shit your pants if you ever were called on to serve in the military.

Ironically.. it hasn't been reported on here at all. Also, this is what most of us Bush Supporters have been hammering away at for the last several years.

We have rougly 2.5 million men we could call up to commit to combat operations (meaning if we were to mobilize the reserves and guard, and leave skeleton crews on our installations throughout the world). Basically, we could probably take on the entire middle east at once if need be.Don't say "we" unless you're in the military. You don't have the right. You won't be going to those wars. Other people will.

Don't say "we" unless you're in the military. You don't have the right. You won't be going to those wars. Other people will.

In the military or not... he is using WE as in the United States. meaning he has full right to say we as an American. Why don't you cool your jets Nazz.

We have rougly 2.5 million men we could call up to commit to combat operations (meaning if we were to mobilize the reserves and guard, and leave skeleton crews on our installations throughout the world). Basically, we could probably take on the entire middle east at once if need be.
Lol keep dreaming ...

Numbers on paper do not reflect what happens in reality when you put people into the equation

Fuck look at what happened in vietnam

OH I already know that.

And the Nazz....try commenting on the story. Not all the guardsmen have PTSD. It isn't going to be that hard either. Why don't you try commenting on a story instead of lowering yourself to a character attack. Frankly, it really is getting quite annoying and I expect better of you. I did have respect for you Nazz but that is slowly eroding.

Its ok though, I forgive you.
Forgive my nuts, Corny. I don't want your forgiveness. I want you to saddle up if you're going to talk shit about where troops ought to go. I'm tired of your faux-patriotism and the way you talk tough like sending troops to the border is no big deal. You'll be asking parents to leave their kids, spouses to leave their significant others, all for what? Another fucking photo-op? You want to say "about damn time," then mount up, boy. You're of age.

In the military or not... he is using WE as in the United States. meaning he has full right to say we as an American. Why don't you cool your jets Nazz.
No, not until a mod tells me I've gone over the line. You all talk smack like this is come kind of a damn game. This isn't a game. Nationstates is a game. What those people will be asked to do is real fucking life, Corny, and it's about damn time that people started calling you on the carpet whenever you and your reactionary buddies start talking tough about what the military should and shouldn't do.

Forgive my nuts, Corny. I don't want your forgiveness. I want you to saddle up if you're going to talk shit about where troops ought to go. I'm tired of your faux-patriotism and the way you talk tough like sending troops to the border is no big deal. You'll be asking parents to leave their kids, spouses to leave their significant others, all for what? Another fucking photo-op? You want to say "about damn time," then mount up, boy. You're of age.

More character attacks is going to get you into trouble. As to your 4th statement, I already know what that is like. Welcome to life in the military. I know what it is like to have loved ones go off to war. And this is no photo-op. You are not happy because Bush is actually thinking about sending troops to the border. I just wish he do it already.

No, not until a mod tells me I've gone over the line. You all talk smack like this is come kind of a damn game. This isn't a game. Nationstates is a game. What those people will be asked to do is real fucking life, Corny, and it's about damn time that people started calling you on the carpet whenever you and your reactionary buddies start talking tough about what the military should and shouldn't do.

Oh Nazz Nazz Nazz. I already know life is not a game. I already know war is not a game. So why don't you start paying attention to the real world instead of insulting people. I have a right to talk about what the military should and shouldn't do. I have loved ones in uniform and I know what they go through.

More character attacks is going to get you into trouble. As to your 4th statement, I already know what that is like. Welcome to life in the military. I know what it is like to have loved ones go off to war. And this is no photo-op. You are not happy because Bush is actually thinking about sending troops to the border. I just wish he do it already.
I can't attack your character, Corny--there's nothing to attack. But go ahead--report me. I don't believe I've said anything here that crosses over the line into flaming. Hell, I've barely insulted you.

And yes, Corny, this is a photo-op, just like every other domestic policy initiative Bush has run. It's all smoke and mirrors. It's all bullshit. Take a sniff. You can smell it. And here's the proof (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/02/09/MNGOKB837T1.DTL).

Why would Bush need to send troops to the border if he hadn't cut nearly 10,000 Border Patrol Agents? If he really gave two shits about the border, then why cut those agents in the first place? This is the USS Abraham Lincoln, Mission Accomplished shit all over again. Give it up, Corny.

Thats not an insult, thats calling you on a fault. if you are so pro-troops on the border then join up so you can go to the border and leave youre loved ones behind. I personally hate most everything associated with the current administration but I want to join the Air Force so that I can get that DISCIPLINE and RESPECT for those in the armed forces. You want to toss them around like their robots with no human attatchments and deploy troops for every little quip against the current regime yet you have no idea how the troops actually feel to be away from home and family just so another dirty mexican(who, btw, does jobs that no one will take so they aintr stealing shit) wont cross the border.

I can't attack your character, Corny--there's nothing to attack. But go ahead--report me. I don't believe I've said anything here that crosses over the line into flaming. Hell, I've barely insulted you.

Nazz... you have done nothing but character assassinate in this thread. However, I am not going to go to the Mods for I have forgiven you for your comments. No sense in bothering them when i have already forgiven you.

And yes, Corny, this is a photo-op, just like every other domestic policy initiative Bush has run. It's all smoke and mirrors. It's all bullshit. Take a sniff. You can smell it. And here's the proof (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/02/09/MNGOKB837T1.DTL).

Using the San Francisco newspaper does not do you well for everyone knows that SF is the liberal capital of the United States.

Why would Bush need to send troops to the border if he hadn't cut nearly 10,000 Border Patrol Agents? If he really gave two shits about the border, then why cut those agents in the first place? This is the USS Abraham Lincoln, Mission Accomplished shit all over again. Give it up, Corny.

Why don't you actually grow up and see the real world.

Thats not an insult, thats calling you on a fault. if you are so pro-troops on the border then join up so you can go to the border and leave youre loved ones behind.

I'm Medically ineligible for a variety of reasons with the medical paperwork to prove it.

I personally hate most everything associated with the current administration but I want to join the Air Force so that I can get that DISCIPLINE and RESPECT for those in the armed forces.

The Air Force is a wonderful branch of service. Unlike the Army, Navy, and Marines, they do a better job of taking care of their people. As a son of a USAF officer and the brother-in-law of another, I wish you luck in your career choice.

You want to toss them around like their robots with no human attatchments and deploy troops for every little quip against the current regime yet you have no idea how the troops actually feel to be away from home and family just so another dirty mexican(who, btw, does jobs that no one will take so they aintr stealing shit) wont cross the border.

Oh I actually do know what it is like to have a love one away from home.

Nazz... you have done nothing but character assassinate in this thread. However, I am not going to go to the Mods for I have forgiven you for your comments. No sense in bothering them when i have already forgiven you.



Using the San Francisco newspaper does not do you well for everyone knows that SF is the liberal capital of the United States.



Why don't you actually grow up and see the real world.
You use fox news as a sorce and bregrudge him using a san francisco newspaper

LOL now that IS silly

Using the San Francisco newspaper does not do you well for everyone knows that SF is the liberal capital of the United States.

Why don't you actually grow up and see the real world.
Corny, I've seen more of the real world than you will ever even begin to imagine, because I actually look at it.

Unlike you, who, had you actually clicked on the link, would have noticed that the article was picked up by the San Francisco paper from the Houston Fucking Chronicle.

I believe the term is pwned. :rolleyes:

You use fox news as a sorce and bregrudge him using a san francisco newspaper

LOL now that IS silly

At least Fox News is a tad more fair and Balanced than the SF Gate

At least Fox News is a tad more fair and Balanced than the SF Gate
Lol just because they call it fair and balanced does not make it so lol

At least Fox News is a tad more fair and Balanced than the SF Gate
I'm waiting for your Doh! moment. Any second now.

Corny, I've seen more of the real world than you will ever even begin to imagine, because I actually look at it.

I look at it every day as well. Of course I also look beyond what the press is reporting for what isn't reported is just as newsworthy as those that are reported.

Unlike you, who, had you actually clicked on the link, would have noticed that the article was picked up by the San Francisco paper from the Houston Fucking Chronicle.

And this makes your point how?

To get this thread back on track.....

I am glad Bush is thinking about doing this. Hopefully he'll tell us what he is going to do tomorrow night at 800 PM. I know I will be tuned in.

And this makes your point how?
You can't really be that dense. Not really. You bitch that the story is from the San Francisco paper, and when I point out that it's from the Houston paper (not exactly a bastion of liberalism), you say "huh?" And you say I don't look at the world. :rolleyes:

Using the San Francisco newspaper does not do you well for everyone knows that SF is the liberal capital of the United States.


Not to burst your bubble there pal, but just saying that because its from a paper in a liberal area it doesn't count, isn't refuting cited evidence.

And anyway, if you actually took a moment to look instead of seeing "SAN FRAN CHRONICLE OMFG LIBERALS!!!!!"

You would have noticed that the article was actually written by Michael Hedges of the Houston Chronicle. It was merely reposted to the SF Chronicles website.

And just FYI, lots of major papers share stories of national importance this way. Just because you see it on one paper's site doesn't mean it was written by that paper.

But then again, all the media is totally liberal, can't trust it right?

Those who want to talk off topic, start your own thread. I am not going to respond to off topic posts here. This is about Bush calling up the guard, or thinking about it, and not the press.

What those people will be asked to do is real fucking life, Corny, and it's about damn time that people started calling you on the carpet whenever you and your reactionary buddies start talking tough about what the military should and shouldn't do.
When they signed that little bit of paper to get whatever perks come from being a National Guardsman, they agreed to tolerate this shit. If you want to blame someone, blame them for joining a system that would abuse them and helping to continue perpetrating those abuses.
I have no sympathy for people who join the military willingly and are then expected to be Bush's bitch, that's the work they signed up for and its what they collect pay checks to do.

Those who want to talk off topic, start your own thread. I am not going to respond to off topic posts here. This is about Bush calling up the guard, or thinking about it, and not the press.
Lol why does this remind me of a “nothing to see here” phrase spouted by someone trying to cover up a mistake

Those who want to talk off topic, start your own thread. I am not going to respond to off topic posts here. This is about Bush calling up the guard, or thinking about it, and not the press.
You brought the press into it, and now you're running because it's bitten you in the ass.

But the press was never my point. The main point you have failed to address was that this is a photo-op and nothing more, and that the proof is in the fact that Bush's budget failed to fund nearly 10,000 Border Patrol agents, 80% of whom were supposed to go to that very border. Explain that, Corny. Explain why anyone with a brain should believe that this is anything other than a photo-op to get his approval ratings out of the toilet. If he wanted to actually do the job, he'd have made sure the appropriations were there to get the job done.

You brought the press into it, and now you're running because it's bitten you in the ass.

But the press was never my point. The main point you have failed to address was that this is a photo-op and nothing more, and that the proof is in the fact that Bush's budget failed to fund nearly 10,000 Border Patrol agents, 80% of whom were supposed to go to that very border. Explain that, Corny. Explain why anyone with a brain should believe that this is anything other than a photo-op to get his approval ratings out of the toilet. If he wanted to actually do the job, he'd have made sure the appropriations were there to get the job done.

So you object to placing Guardsmen on the border?

So you object to placing Guardsmen on the border?
I think it was more objecting to doing it half assed if he was going to do it.

We may think there are better ways to spend the public money but it is even more laughable when the does it half assed just to boost polls.

So you object to placing Guardsmen on the border?
At this point, yes. We ought to put those Border Patrol agents we were supposed to hire in the first place there. They'd be trained for the job and it wouldn't be a temporary, bullshit, photo-op. Using the Guard is never meant to be more than a temporary solution for any problem, and this issue of immigration across the Mexican border has existed for as long as there's been a border. But it's typical, photo-op thinking from the Bush administration.

At this point, yes. We ought to put those Border Patrol agents we were supposed to hire in the first place there. They'd be trained for the job and it wouldn't be a temporary, bullshit, photo-op. Using the Guard is never meant to be more than a temporary solution for any problem, and this issue of immigration across the Mexican border has existed for as long as there's been a border. But it's typical, photo-op thinking from the Bush administration.

The border patrol also wanted this done awhile ago. Now they are getting their wish. It took Bush long enough to get to this point. Hopefully he'll do the right thing and issue the order to place them on the border.

The border patrol also wanted this done awhile ago. Now they are getting their wish. It took Bush long enough to get to this point. Hopefully he'll do the right thing and issue the order to place them on the border.
I guarantee you the Border Patrol wanted those full time agents, not National Guardsmen. If you can prove otherwise, go right ahead. But putting Guardsmen because you failed to put agents there is not the right thing to do no matter how much you try to spin it that way, Corny. It's a show. It's a goddamn farce, and it's pathetic that you refuse to see it.

All I can say is,

ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME
ditto

The Border patrol people wanted a permanent solution, not some half-assed media ploy. I can only hope that people see it for what it really is, rather than joining the ranks of the kool-aid drinkers and snatching at any reason to 'HAIL THE GREAT AND WONDROUS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES GEORDE W. BUSH.'

A.K.A. the retard elect.

Using the San Francisco newspaper does not do you well for everyone knows that SF is the liberal capital of the United States.


Wow Corne, that is probably the dumbest thing you have ever said. But don't worry I forgive you.

Oh and to correct your thinking. Berkeley is far more liberal then San Francisco.

I'm Medically ineligible for a variety of reasons with the medical paperwork to prove it.


Really? What are the reasons? Just curiosity mind you.....

Really? What are the reasons? Just curiosity mind you.....
If I remember right it was ADHD or ADD (or both) … if I also remember right it had been pointed out that it absolutely does not disqualify a person from voluntary service.

Also if I remember right last time it came up there was no “paperwork” just what he said a recruiter told him.

If I remember right it was ADHD or ADD (or both) … if I also remember right it had been pointed out that it absolutely does not disqualify a person from voluntary service.

Also if I remember right last time it came up there was no “paperwork” just what he said a recruiter told him.
And before that it was because his father was active duty and he was the only child and born of a virgin under a star from the west or something like that.

Does fireman count as somehow serving your country? And the biggest problem I have with illegals is that they do not pay into any system, yet draw benefits from it, especially in the medical realm. Why are so many other minority communites against granting amnesty in any form? That and the state militias could have been called up to secure the border at any point, though i'm guessing the governers will not do that.

I'm Medically ineligible for a variety of reasons with the medical paperwork to prove it.

Prove it. You gave me that same line before Cornster, but never showed it when I demanded proof. Show me those documents. Type them up if you have to. Whatever it is, prove that you're something other than hot air and excuses.

Does fireman count as somehow serving your country? And the biggest problem I have with illegals is that they do not pay into any system, yet draw benefits from it, especially in the medical realm. Why are so many other minority communites against granting amnesty in any form? That and the state militias could have been called up to secure the border at any point, though i'm guessing the governers will not do that.

I have mixed reviews on this. My granddad was an imigrant.

Yet, I understand why shrubby wants to do this. He needs to free up those jobs for the Americans as his economy rolls on.

I have mixed reviews on this. My granddad was in imigrant.

Yet, I understand why shrubby wants to do this. He needs to free up those jobs for the Americans as his economy rolls on.

oh, i'm 3rd generation (i think) and I'm polish, and I do still experience a light amount of discrimination from irishmen. However, my great grand daddy and his family came over legally and paid their dues. They learned english in addition to polish, paid taxes, worked legitimatly, etc. I have no problem with anyone willing to go through the process, but those who aren't I don't.

I think it's a good idea to have the Guard on the border. If nothing else, it's actually closer to their job description than fighting in Iraq. Afterall, the are the NATIONAL GUARD, and should be GUARDING THE NATION, not fighting foreign wars. Foreign wars fall under just about any other branch of the military except the Coast Guard. The regular Army and Marines should be the first called for those duties (the Air Force and Navy to a more limited area), then the reservists, and THEN if more rotations are needed, call on the Guard to fill in.

As for them being too far away to help with natural disasters, more natural disasters strike Texas and California than just about any other states. At least they'll be in the general proxemity of the hurricane areas as we approach hurricane season, too.

And many of my family are Marines, my cousin being deployed for active duty as soon as his schooling in his field is finished (he beleives it will be Iraq). My older cousin was in Bosnia with the UN peacekeepers. My father was a Marine, but he encouraged all his daughters NOT to follow in his footsteps. As a female, I also don't have to worry about the draft anytime soon.

At least Fox News is a tad more fair and Balanced than the SF Gate

Heh, you've been had, kid. FOX wants you to think they're "fair and balanced" so that you actually believe their BS. And it works too - when you look at the facts, far more people trust FOX than they really should be. And why should you not trust fox? Because they make you believe more lies than any other national news source.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/102.php?nid=&id=&pnt=102&lb=brusc

So you object to placing Guardsmen on the border?

No, his point is that BUSH did. Maybe read his post?

This entire thread is a BS bait fest du jour a la Corny. Let me ask this, Cornster. Don't you have better things to do with your time and effort? Like leading prayer circles, or shouting at pregnant 15 year old girls headed for the local abortion clinic, or (and don't try to lie your way out of this one) jerking off to pictures of Anne Coulter?

Get over yourself. Even my most conservative reletives (including my multi-millionare uncle who doesn't even help out his own children) are beginning to come around on the idea that president smug is somewhere between crappy and pernitious as a leader, and that this feeble dick-waving gesture is nothing more than a repo think-tank idea to attempt to get at least some of that 71% back on his back on his side.

All in all, I must quote William S. Burroughs...

"I am not paid to listen to this drivel. You are a terminal fool."

No, his point is that BUSH did. Maybe read his post?
So he doesn't object to putting guardsman on the boarder... but that Bush did it.
Talk about cutting off your own nose to spite your face.

So he doesn't object to putting guardsman on the boarder... but that Bush did it.
Talk about cutting off your own nose to spite your face.

No, he was talking about how this action is a cloying piece of PR BS. If you want real protection on the southern border, funding the border patrol and the INS is a galactically better idea than the retarded chest thumping that this move, more than obviously, is.

So he doesn't object to putting guardsman on the boarder... but that Bush did it.
Talk about cutting off your own nose to spite your face.

No, no, no. The point is that putting the guardsmen is nothing more than a face saving gesture compared to the fact that if he had actually put the money where it was needed, say in the actual border patrol, we wouldn't need the guardsmen there.

It's like not hiring a professional security service to guard a bank and getting the clerks to go around with guns and saying "See? We do think about security"

I'm Medically ineligible for a variety of reasons with the medical paperwork to prove it.
So instead of accepting that you are deemed not good enough, you talk shit about it on the internet instead. :rolleyes:

And the media thing, yeah, pwned. The usual denial of the patently obvious that I have come to expect from you. Heh, you'd be attacking the liberal bias of an article a SF newspaper quoted from FOX because you don't bother reading to the end. I doubt many people would feel comfortable serving with a guy with that kind of attention to detail to weapons manuals.

No, no, no. The point is that putting the guardsmen is nothing more than a face saving gesture compared to the fact that if he had actually put the money where it was needed, say in the actual border patrol, we wouldn't need the guardsmen there.

It's like not hiring a professional security service to guard a bank and getting the clerks to go around with guns and saying "See? We do think about security"
Yup. And I like your analogy ;)

I doubt many people would feel comfortable serving with a guy with that kind of attention to detail to weapons manuals.

I can see it now.

Corny: Duh....noht....DONUTS! *presses red button labelled DO NOT PRESS*

I wonder how many people can get the reference.

Oh, I see BUsh's plan now (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12796688/from/RS.1/). 8,000 Border Patrol agents were too many to do the job (the 80% of the 10,000 who were supposed to be hired to patrol the southern border), so instead Bush is going to send 5,000 National Guardsmen from outside those border states, men and women who will have little no idea of the area, the terrain, the local people, the situation, not to mention little to no training on what to do, and have them do the work (temporarily, he says) of what was supposed to be 8,000 full-time professional Border Patrol agents.

Anyone still not convinced this is a anything but a PR stunt?

Oh, I see BUsh's plan now (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12796688/from/RS.1/). 8,000 Border Patrol agents were too many to do the job (the 80% of the 10,000 who were supposed to be hired to patrol the southern border), so instead Bush is going to send 5,000 National Guardsmen from outside those border states, men and women who will have little no idea of the area, the terrain, the local people, the situation, not to mention little to no training on what to do, and have them do the work (temporarily, he says) of what was supposed to be 8,000 full-time professional Border Patrol agents.

Anyone still not convinced this is a anything but a PR stunt?

Nope. I don't see any plugs for taxbreaks or marriage ammendments.
COME ON! You know Karl Rove would never allow a PR stunt without 'em.

It's ironic Bush is using the National Guard on the Mexican Border to keep out illegal immigrants while most of the troops who can do the job properly are deployed to countries thousands of miles away.

So, instead of taking the long-term solution of more INS and Border Patrol agents, and talking to the Mexican government to help root out the long-term economic problems that cause the Mexican immigrants to actually cross the border, Bush instead takes the easy, flag-waving and extremely short-term solution of putting the National Guard on the borders.


Sheer brilliance. So, the immigrants stop going across the border and go via boat along the coast, until such time as the NG are withdrawn and then they continue. Brilliant...

It won't last. It isn't in corporate interest to close the border. Just as it isn't in their interest to make legal immigration easier. And Bush always thinks of his corporate buddies first. :p

THis is just to make him look like he's doing something.

We have rougly 2.5 million men we could call up to commit to combat operations (meaning if we were to mobilize the reserves and guard, and leave skeleton crews on our installations throughout the world). Basically, we could probably take on the entire middle east at once if need be.

You'd be rather gutted if anyone decided to invade. Like those evil Canadians or whatever.

This entire thread is a BS bait fest du jour a la Corny. Let me ask this, Cornster. Don't you have better things to do with your time and effort? Like leading prayer circles, or shouting at pregnant 15 year old girls headed for the local abortion clinic, or (and don't try to lie your way out of this one) jerking off to pictures of Anne Coulter?

Though this is off topic, I'm going to respond.

1) Yes. Its called talking to my gf.
2) I pray on my own or at bible study at campus and b) I do not shout for shouting doesn't work and I have never been to an abortion clinic and never will.
3) I hate Anne Coulter.

So instead of accepting that you are deemed not good enough, you talk shit about it on the internet instead. :rolleyes:

This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard outside of a politician from either party.

You'd be rather gutted if anyone decided to invade. Like those evil Canadians or whatever.

Oh I like this. Anyone decides to invade, they're going to have one nasty blood bath on their hands...their own.

Oh I like this. Anyone decides to invade, they're going to have one nasty blood bath on their hands...their own.
Not if we were tied up millitarily trying to take on the entire middle east. (which is what the person was addressing)

Not if we were tied up millitarily trying to take on the entire middle east. (which is what the person was addressing)

I would love to see them trying to shoot there way inside a city. Those gangs will not like having soldiers inside their city.

I would love to see them trying to shoot there way inside a city. Those gangs will not like having soldiers inside their city.
i did not say it would be easy but there is hardly enough evidence to call it a blood bath

Specialy if someone not so nice desides to invade ... if they dont feel like fooling around with ground troops for a while and decide to bomb a few cities

No matter how many troops of theirs we decide to kill I have a feeling civilian death toll will be gigantic

I would love to see them trying to shoot there way inside a city. Those gangs will not like having soldiers inside their city.

The Canadians are fairly hard-bitten :P

Or a less ridiculous situation - what if the Chinese decided to attack when the whole of the USA was out in the Middle East?

You'd be buggered royally.

It's all Bush's falt!
Leave the mexicans alone! (Thay are only going to land that was taken from the U.S.M.)
If the U.S.A. stoped being so evil it wouldn't have this problem. I would love to see the world ruled by my nation, the U.S.A., but not the way Bush is doing things. If only we united the Americas the way the E.U. is uniteing Eurup.

The Canadians are fairly hard-bitten :P

Or a less ridiculous situation - what if the Chinese decided to attack when the whole of the USA was out in the Middle East?

You'd be buggered royally.

How would they get here?

How would they get here?

By boat/plane, obviously. Or Zeppelin, for the extra scariness factor. You'd be worried if the air was clouded by Zeppelins bearing the PLA's colours, right?

And then about a million paratroopers all jump out at once.

I can imagine it now, and it's both quite scary and quite beautiful. It's happening at dusk, obviously.

How would they get here?
I assume through a variety of ways, from air transport to ship.

With a large percentage of our military tied up in over seas operations we would not have much of an ability to ward off a sustained attack

..., and that the proof is in the fact that Bush's budget failed to fund nearly 10,000 Border Patrol agents, 80% of whom were supposed to go to that very border....
I don't quite follow what the problem here is... is the budget that "failed to fund nearly 10k BP agents" a yearly budget? or over the term of the 5 years he's supposed to take to get the 10k BP agents in place....
Officially approved by Bush on Dec. 17 after extensive bickering in Congress, the National Intelligence Reform Act included the requirement to add 10,000 border patrol agents in the five years beginning with 2006
...
But Bush's proposed 2006 budget, revealed Monday, funds only 210 new border agents.
yep... only 1 year... He's got 4 more to get up to the 10k :P

this is anything other than a photo-op to get his approval ratings out of the toilet. If he wanted to actually do the job, he'd have made sure the appropriations were there to get the job done.
i don't necessarily disagree w/ this that it may be a "photo op" session. However, w/ your pro illegal immigration stance, i don't think anything he would do to protect the border would meet your approval.

I assume through a variety of ways, from air transport to ship.

With a large percentage of our military tied up in over seas operations we would not have much of an ability to ward off a sustained attack

The Chinese Sea/Airlift capacity isn't large enough to maintain a sustained long-distance invasion.

Hence my question, how would they get here.

The Chinese Sea/Airlift capacity isn't large enough to maintain a sustained long-distance invasion.

Hence my question, how would they get here.
Against an essentialy unarmed target?

If I remember right it was ADHD or ADD (or both) … if I also remember right it had been pointed out that it absolutely does not disqualify a person from voluntary service.

Also if I remember right last time it came up there was no “paperwork” just what he said a recruiter told him.

and i now also remember him trying to state that he can't serve because his father was serving... and when he was disproved of that theory, he came up w/ the medical one.

Against an essentialy unarmed target?

Who's "essentially unarmed". There are still hundreds of thousands of US troops still in CONUS.

The Chinese Sea/Airlift capacity isn't large enough to maintain a sustained long-distance invasion.

Hence my question, how would they get here.

Are you, for some reason, of the assumption that the Chinese government couldn't require its workers to change production to making ships and aircraft?

Because you'd be quite wrong.

Think about it. Half a billion people producing ships and aircraft, non-stop for a month or so. After this month or so, you'd have a world-class transport capability.

Good luck doing that without someone noticing. We also do have the little thing known as nuclear missles. Sure, it would kill us too, but the threat means that an invasion is highly ulikely

Who's "essentially unarmed". There are still hundreds of thousands of US troops still in CONUS.
We were dealing under the hypothetical of an almost complete deployment to the middle east. (and our suposed ability to take on the entire middle east at the same time)

I was not talking about the situation as it currently exists.

By boat/plane, obviously. Or Zeppelin, for the extra scariness factor. You'd be worried if the air was clouded by Zeppelins bearing the PLA's colours, right?

And then about a million paratroopers all jump out at once.

I can imagine it now, and it's both quite scary and quite beautiful. It's happening at dusk, obviously.
lol! that wouldent work at all, by the time the Navy and Air Force are done with the fraighters and comercal air liners they would have no chice but to use the California National guard could take the few fishing boats and 4 man planes that manage to slip through, asuming they get radar proof somthing by then.

Are you, for some reason, of the assumption that the Chinese government couldn't require its workers to change production to making ships and aircraft?

Because you'd be quite wrong.

Think about it. Half a billion people producing ships and aircraft, non-stop for a month or so. After this month or so, you'd have a world-class transport capability.

As the "less ridiculous situation" now becomes more ridiculous.

Good luck doing that without someone noticing. We also do have the little thing known as nuclear missles. Sure, it would kill us too, but the threat means that an invasion is highly ulikely

MAD. If the USA tried it on at this period in time, then you can kiss goodbye to the world's population as the various nuclear powers of the world fight it out.

And I think that if the USA was stuck in the Middle East, it might have more to worry about than whether China was building cruise ships (which would be the perfect front) or not.

i don't necessarily disagree w/ this that it may be a "photo op" session. However, w/ your pro illegal immigration stance, i don't think anything he would do to protect the border would meet your approval.
So calling a photo-op a photo-op necessarily makes me pro-illegal immigration, huh? Wow--I'd hate to see your grades in a logic and rhetoric class.

We were dealing under the hypothetical of an almost complete deployment to the middle east. (and our suposed ability to take on the entire middle east at the same time)

I was not talking about the situation as it currently exists.

Ah, OK.

They'ld still have to deal w/ the Crypts, Bloods, and any other gang that doesn't want the Triad invading their territories. :)

Who's "essentially unarmed". There are still hundreds of thousands of US troops still in CONUS.
between state and national guards we can hold out against what troop they could get across, and the Air Force would make it a bitch to get any supplies in.

It takes more than just workers to make world class ships and planes. You might have the labor force, but I highly doubt that China has the industrial tooling capacity to churn out hundreds of ships a month.

It would take time to re-key their industry to do so, and then there is the acquisition of fuel, supplies, etc. Plus, keep in mind that no nation has ever attempted to transport a million troops all at once across an ocean. The transport capacity needed would be a damn logistical nightmare.

Plus I think the US might just notice a fleet that size, given our rather hefty satellite capacity.

between state and national guards we can hold out against what troop they could get across, and the Air Force would make it a bitch to get any supplies in.

We're talking about a full military deployment in the Middle East here, including all of the US reservist etc.

The general population of the USA is pretty foolish if it thinks it can stand up to the PLA.

Ah, OK.

They'ld still have to deal w/ the Crypts, Bloods, and any other gang that doesn't want the Triad invading their territories. :)
Corni brought that up ... while I am sure they would be hard as hell to dig out ... the fight would for the most part be fairly one sided

Either way I am sure that the potential damage would be frigging enormous ...

Anyways just using it as an example of why it would not be a good idea to be cocky and try to take on the entire middle east at the same time

So calling a photo-op a photo-op necessarily makes me pro-illegal immigration, huh? Wow--I'd hate to see your grades in a logic and rhetoric class.
no, the other thread about mexican immigration does.

It takes more than just workers to make world class ships and planes. You might have the labor force, but I highly doubt that China has the industrial tooling capacity to churn out hundreds of ships a month.

It would take time to re-key their industry to do so, and then there is the acquisition of fuel, supplies, etc. Plus, keep in mind that no nation has ever attempted to transport a million troops all at once across an ocean. The transport capacity needed would be a damn logistical nightmare.

Plus I think the US might just notice a fleet that size, given our rather hefty satellite capacity.

It's not like the Chinese lack the capability to shoot down satellites.

And yeah, it would be a logistical nightmare, but as has been stated, this is an entirely hypothetical situation.

We were dealing under the hypothetical of an almost complete deployment to the middle east. (and our suposed ability to take on the entire middle east at the same time)

I was not talking about the situation as it currently exists.
In open combat the good money is on the United States, we couldent police the entire middle east but the persian gulf war (and we are even better now) showed what a platoon of M1A1s can do to a division of former russian armor.

We're talking about a full military deployment in the Middle East here, including all of the US reservist etc.

The general population of the USA is pretty foolish if it thinks it can stand up to the PLA.

Oh we have our ways Yootopia. We can make what's going on in Iraq look like a spring picnick. Of course, we wouldn't be going after civilians intentionally like they are doing in Iraq.

In open combat the good money is on the United States, we couldent police the entire middle east but the persian gulf war (and we are even better now) showed what a platoon of M1A1s can do to a division of former russian armor.
Again I am not saying we probably could not pull it off in the end ... but we would be exposing ourselfs in doing so

In open combat the good money is on the United States, we couldent police the entire middle east but the persian gulf war (and we are even better now) showed what a platoon of M1A1s can do to a division of former russian armor.

Yeah... but that's not really the issue. The US Army would be stuck in the Middle East fighting off the "insurgents" or whatever. An M1A1 is not indestructable, several have been knocked out by RPG-7s. Hardly the most advanced weapon, and I'm sure that the Persians and Syrians have thought about good ways to take out M1A1 tanks before.

We're talking about a full military deployment in the Middle East here, including all of the US reservist etc.

The general population of the USA is pretty foolish if it thinks it can stand up to the PLA.
is that hypathetical? because a majority of US forces are over there but we maintain thousends of men in the US, I'm not saying it would not be a problem but they wouldent get past the rockies I can assure you. But resupplying them would be very hard and every day 10 of their tanks is killed by a M1A2 is more battle hardened men who are already ready to fight recalled from Iraq. In event of war between the PLA and the US nither side could invade the other succesfully.

Oh we have our ways Yootopia. We can make what's going on in Iraq look like a spring picnick. Of course, we wouldn't be going after civilians intentionally like they are doing in Iraq.

Yeah, but on the other hand, the USA is being a bit tactful about what it's doing in Iraq, as most of the world's waiting for it to slip up and give them a reason to declare war. The Chinese, on the other hand, probably don't care what happens to US cities, where most people are armed and hence considered military targets.

no, the other thread about mexican immigration does.
I don't believe I've ever come out in favor of illegal immigration. I have noted that if you want to stop it, the only really effective way is to go after the people hiring illegals, seize some assets, and throw some CEOs and Human Resources people in jail, but that's hardly the same as saying I'm in favor of illegal immigration. What I'm opposed to is the retarded demogoguing of this issue by politicians, especially by the racists on the right who want to make this a question of brown people coming across the southern border.

But if you can pull up a quote where I've said I'm in favor of illegal immigration, by all means link it and I'll see what the hell I was thinking at the time.

*sighs*

In this situation basically ALL of the US' military forces are over in the Middle East. Even the reservists, the National Guard, whatever.

A few thousand troops being left in the USA would pose little problem to the PLA, which is probably now the best (other than the Swiss) army in the world.

*sighs*

In this situation basically ALL of the US' military forces are over in the Middle East. Even the reservists, the National Guard, whatever.

A few thousand troops being left in the USA would pose little problem to the PLA, which is probably now the best (other than the Swiss) army in the world.

WHat about the Coast Guard? Police? Wacko Montana Militiamen? I mean, if we're going to assume an impossible scenario like a full U.S. Military deployment, let's assume that some gung-ho rednecks are itching to try out some of the military toys that got left behind on an invading force. :)

Yeah, but on the other hand, the USA is being a bit tactful about what it's doing in Iraq, as most of the world's waiting for it to slip up and give them a reason to declare war. The Chinese, on the other hand, probably don't care what happens to US cities, where most people are armed and hence considered military targets.

They'll have to get through the Air Force first.

I don't believe I've ever come out in favor of illegal immigration. I have noted that if you want to stop it, the only really effective way is to go after the people hiring illegals, seize some assets, and throw some CEOs and Human Resources people in jail, but that's hardly the same as saying I'm in favor of illegal immigration. What I'm opposed to is the retarded demogoguing of this issue by politicians, especially by the racists on the right who want to make this a question of brown people coming across the southern border.

But if you can pull up a quote where I've said I'm in favor of illegal immigration, by all means link it and I'll see what the hell I was thinking at the time.
my apologies. I must have mixed you up w/ someone else. Went through the thread and reread your comments, didn't find what i thought you had said about the issue of illegal immigration. as far as this thread topic, boy has it gotten way off base.

i don't mind the national guardsmen so much as going down there, as a temporary solution. But i think he needs to redo his budget to where he can get more full time border patrol agents.

The guardsmen may be a bandaid fix... but a bandaid is better than nothing as long as you replace it w/ a long term solution.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195445,00.html



All I can say is,

ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME

I thought we had laws against using the military to enforce the law in this country?

Police state here we come!

WHat about the Coast Guard? Police? Wacko Montana Militiamen? I mean, if we're going to assume an impossible scenario like a full U.S. Military deployment, let's assume that some gung-ho rednecks are itching to try out some of the military toys that got left behind on an invading force. :)

Not to mention the gun toting south :D

I thought we had laws against using the military to enforce the law in this country?

Police state here we come!

The military is going there to defend the border. That isn't against the law.

my apologies. I must have mixed you up w/ someone else. Went through the thread and reread your comments, didn't find what i thought you had said about the issue of illegal immigration. as far as this thread topic, boy has it gotten way off base.

i don't mind the national guardsmen so much as going down there, as a temporary solution. But i think he needs to redo his budget to where he can get more full time border patrol agents.

The guardsmen may be a bandaid fix... but a bandaid is better than nothing as long as you replace it w/ a long term solution.
And when has Bush ever done anything that would make you think this situation would be any different?

my apologies. I must have mixed you up w/ someone else. Went through the thread and reread your comments, didn't find what i thought you had said about the issue of illegal immigration. as far as this thread topic, boy has it gotten way off base.

i don't mind the national guardsmen so much as going down there, as a temporary solution. But i think he needs to redo his budget to where he can get more full time border patrol agents.

The guardsmen may be a bandaid fix... but a bandaid is better than nothing as long as you replace it w/ a long term solution.

The real solution isnt hard. It's easy and obvious. But the corporations would never let their stooges in government do it.

So calling a photo-op a photo-op necessarily makes me pro-illegal immigration, huh? Wow--I'd hate to see your grades in a logic and rhetoric class.

Ah, but you should see the grade he got in Political Rhetoric class.

WHat about the Coast Guard? Police? Wacko Montana Militiamen? I mean, if we're going to assume an impossible scenario like a full U.S. Military deployment, let's assume that some gung-ho rednecks are itching to try out some of the military toys that got left behind on an invading force. :)
All great and fine if they decide a ground occupation

Not really a factor if they decide to not play so nice (such as bombing)

Not to mention buckshot has little effect on a tank

They may not be able to occupy and hold us but they can deffinatly do enough damage to make the idea of a full deployment beyond concideration

All great and fine if they decide a ground occupation

Not really a factor if they decide to not play so nice (such as bombing)

Not to mention buckshot has little effect on a tank

They may not be able to occupy and hold us but they can deffinatly do enough damage to make the idea of a full deployment beyond concideration

A full deployment is already beyond consideration. They don't need to consider that particular 'what if' to rule it out.

Yeah... but that's not really the issue. The US Army would be stuck in the Middle East fighting off the "insurgents" or whatever. An M1A1 is not indestructable, several have been knocked out by RPG-7s. Hardly the most advanced weapon, and I'm sure that the Persians and Syrians have thought about good ways to take out M1A1 tanks before.
in the 1st Iraq war 6 got taken out (no crew died). that is ridiculasly one sided.

A full deployment is already beyond consideration. They don't need to consider that particular 'what if' to rule it out.
We were not the one that made that peticular hypothetical some "America rulZ!) pro invasion person did

We were just pointing out one of the many reasons he was wrong at thinking we could freely walk all over the middle east

The military is going there to defend the border. That isn't against the law.

If it was defending from an invading enemy force it would be defending the border. It's going there to enforce a law against crossing the border. That's why the INS isn't part of the Dept. of Defense.

Seriously Corny, do you use that sense of logic to remove the corks from bottles of French Wine that you pour down the drain?

This is just a bullshit political maneuver. Nothing else.

This is just a bullshit political maneuver. Nothing else.

I take exception to that remark. To claim that this is nothing other than a "bullshit political maneuver," is a gross distortion and omission.

It's also a flip-flop.

And when has Bush ever done anything that would make you think this situation would be any different?
unfortunately never.... i kinda hope we get rid of him before his 2nd term is up ;P

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195445,00.html



All I can say is,

ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME
Isn't it? I've dreamt of this, you see. Thousands of armed troops, patrolling the border, keeping those filthy spics in line. How dare they find their situation sub-par. How dare they not qualify for legal immigration. Yes sir, a nice, large armed presence should put a stop to all that, all this leeching off the economy.

But you see, armed troop on the southern border are just the beginning! I have a vision of a massive black wall, not only on our mexican border but on our canadian border as well. Wouldn't that be a patriotic solution to the problem? Keep all non-americans out! Keep them away from our economy. Who knows? Perhaps illegal immigrants could become the next terrorist-like threat. Shall we go to war once more against them?

I'm a writer of fiction. My job is to come up with things that haven't happened yet. I've been writing a book briefly touching on the downfall of the united states, and the scary and frustrating part is that this is how it begins. Blocking the borders. Paranoia. Finger-pointing. All of this illegal immigrant crap is just that. "They kill our economy." No, no, they are but a small nuisance to our economy, and by no means the reason ours is sucking.

You actually encourage troop presence on the border? What the hell is wrong with you?

Isn't it? I've dreamt of this, you see. Thousands of armed troops, patrolling the border, keeping those filthy spics in line. How dare they find their situation sub-par. How dare they not qualify for legal immigration. Yes sir, a nice, large armed presence should put a stop to all that, all this leeching off the economy.

But you see, armed troop on the southern border are just the beginning! I have a vision of a massive black wall, not only on our mexican border but on our canadian border as well. Wouldn't that be a patriotic solution to the problem? Keep all non-americans out! Keep them away from our economy. Who knows? Perhaps illegal immigrants could become the next terrorist-like threat. Shall we go to war once more against them?

I'm a writer of fiction. My job is to come up with things that haven't yet. I've been writing a book briefly touching on the downfall of the united states, and the scary part is that this is how it begins. Blocking the borders. Paranoia. Finger-pointing. All of this illegal immigrant crap is just that. "They kill our economy." No, no, they are but a small nuisance to our economy, and by no means the reason ours is sucking.

You actually encourage troop presence on the border? What the hell is wrong with you?


And the fact that Mexico has a wall across thier southern border doesn't matter at all.

If it was defending from an invading enemy force it would be defending the border. It's going there to enforce a law against crossing the border. That's why the INS isn't part of the Dept. of Defense.

The duty of the military is to defend our borders. I am hoping that they will be used to patrol our borders and to keep these idiots out of our country.

Seriously Corny, do you use that sense of logic to remove the corks from bottles of French Wine that you pour down the drain?

I do not drink French wine. :D

We were not the one that made that peticular hypothetical some "America rulZ!) pro invasion person did

We were just pointing out one of the many reasons he was wrong at thinking we could freely walk all over the middle east

The first and most obvious reason it's impossible is expense. even if the United States could fund such an operation, the effect of that kind of shift on our economy would be lethal. We literally can't afford a full deployment.

I suspect that the original suggester of this idea was an NS roleplayer. :p

And the fact that Mexico has a wall across thier southern border doesn't matter at all.
I don't recall saying that. I don't even recall overly supporting Mexico as an ideal government.

snip

I do not drink French wine. :D
Hence the remark about pouring them down the drain

I think that is what he was alluding to

You actually encourage troop presence on the border? What the hell is wrong with you?

A concerned citizen who demands that the government do what they can to defend our borders and to protect the security of the United States. Nothing is wrong with me.

A concerned citizen who demands that the government do what they can to defend our borders and to protect the security of the United States. Nothing is wrong with me.
I don’t know you seem to suffer from the wish that the military control more and more aspects of our lives in the name of “Security”

I find that rather wrong from my pov

A concerned citizen who demands that the government do what they can to defend our borders and to protect the security of the United States. Nothing is wrong with me.
You have to be awefully paranoid to consider a bunch of penniless drifters a threat to our security.

I don't recall saying that. I don't even recall overly supporting Mexico as an ideal government.

Ok, howabout the fact that 75% of outstanding murder warrants in CA are on illegal immigrants.

Or the fact that 10% of the ones that INS catches crossing have prior US criminal convictions.

Or the fact that they have found smuggling of illegal automatic/heavy weapons

A concerned citizen who demands that the government do what they can to defend our borders and to protect the security of the United States. Nothing is wrong with me.

What good is it to protect the United States if the process turns us into a country not worth protecting?

You have to be awefully paranoid to consider a bunch of penniless drifters a threat to our security.

Tell that to the people who had thei lives shattered because of the illegal immigrants. There are plenty of stories of this happening. You being an author and all should be able to do the research.

Ok, howabout the fact that 75% of outstanding murder warrants in CA are on illegal immigrants.

Or the fact that 10% of the ones that INS catches crossing have prior US criminal convictions.

Or the fact that they have found smuggling of illegal automatic/heavy weapons
As far as the 10%, it's most likely because we send them back across the border. If the 75% were a national average, then i would agree with you. If we spent more time actually granting some kind of citizenship to these immigrants, issuing them social security cards and such, they would be easier to find, and the warrants wouldn't be outstanding.

Tell that to the people who had thei lives shattered because of the illegal immigrants. There are plenty of stories of this happening. You being an author and all should be able to do the research.
Would their lives be less shattered if it weren't illegal immigrants?

Tell that to the people who had thei lives shattered because of the illegal immigrants. There are plenty of stories of this happening. You being an author and all should be able to do the research.

You're the one making the assertions. Burden of proof falls to you.

On topic, unless the National Guard is there until the Border Patrol can gain enough personnel replace them, this is just a temporary measure designed to placate public fears until Bush's numbers go up or the elections are over.

The duty of the military is to defend our borders. I am hoping that they will be used to patrol our borders and to keep these idiots out of our country.

No. It is the duty of the military to protect our country from invasion or insurection. It is the duty of federal law enforcement officials to protect our borders. That's why the border checkpoints aren't manned by the military.

By your logic, we should have the military patrolling our streets looking for illegal immigrants. Soldiers demanding ID from anyone they suspect of not belonging here. IOW a police state.

I do not drink French wine. :D

I'm referring to the "boycott" of your fellow con-men in which French wine was purchased and then poured down the drain. That's why I said the "wine that you pour down the drain."

As far as the 10%, it's most likely because we send them back across the border. If the 75% were a national average, then i would agree with you. If we spent more time actually granting some kind of citizenship to these immigrants, issuing them social security cards and such, they would be easier to find, and the warrants wouldn't be outstanding.

We should not be giving citizenships to law breakers. Crossing illegally into the United States is a crime and they should be punished. Those who help illegal immigrants should also be punished and I do not care who they are.

Would their lives be less shattered if it weren't illegal immigrants?
Would their lives have been shattered in the first place if the illegal immigrants weren't there?

You know, it's great that we're going to be putting National Guard servicemen on the border. So fuckin' great. I JUST LOVE IT!!

I'm with Caravale.

Look, we'd have to bring about 40% of the soilders in Iraq and Afghanistan back to get the whole National Guard back. I doubt they wanna bring more people home from Iraq, which totally isn't nation building (by the way), because Bush said he wouldn't be a nation builder. He does like ruining them though.

How can all these Reagan-republicans support a wall? We want the wall on the border. We want the wall in Isreal. But of course, we're gonna show all the love in the world to this guy who is famous for tearing down a wall and ending those damn commies from ruling the world.

WAKE UP! Reagan sucked! Reagan didn't end communism. Firstly, that wasn't even really communism. Secondly, they were gonna fail anyway. They were running out of money, and they were running out of money fast. Their people were about to have another revolution. Trust me, they would've be thrown out of power. Gorbachev knew that. He would've done the same thing no matter who was in office *well, almost anyone*. And remember, George H. W. Bush was the Vice-President during this time. Which means he most like controlled it all, especially in the last years when Reagan couldn't do anything due to illness. The whole Iran-Contra thing. I don't think Reagan knew because I don't think Reagan had control. He was dumb. George W. Bush isn't. Nixon ended the Vietnam war and the draft. To bad he was a crook. George W. Bush is a crook, and he started a war that will last longer than Vietnam. He wants to bring back the draft.

So, to be back on topic, fuck this border shit. How about we fix the problems we got ourselves into and that are much more dangerous to our soilders before we focus on the problems we should've started talking about twenty years ago.

We should not be giving citizenships to law breakers. Crossing illegally into the United States is a crime and they should be punished. Those who help illegal immigrants should also be punished and I do not care who they are.
Ah, but were the above plan to be put into action, crossing the border would no longer be illegal, and they would not be guilty of breaking any laws. Also, i think you should reconsider the possibilities and implications of your stance on those that aid illegals.

Ok, howabout the fact that 75% of outstanding murder warrants in CA are on illegal immigrants.


No shit, sherlock! One of the reason why they're outstanding is because the suspects are hard to find. What you're saying is that illegal immgrants are hard to keep track of. Duh. :rolleyes:

But tell me this: What percentage of TOTAL murder warrants are on illegal immigrants?

Would their lives have been shattered in the first place if the illegal immigrants weren't there?
Bad things happen. Stopping immigration by force will not change that.

Ah, but were the above plan to be put into action, crossing the border would no longer be illegal, and they would not be guilty of breaking any laws. Also, i think you should reconsider the possibilities and implications of your stance on those that aid illegals.

What plan would that be? I know of several plans and one that makes me shake my head on and that's the one bush supports. Frankly, I'm glad theirs a fight in Congress over it. Its about time they get off their butts and actually do something constructive for America. Hopefully they'll keep crossing into our nation illegal and pose stiffer penalties on them and to those who help them.

What plan would that be? I know of several plans and one that makes me shake my head on and that's the one bush supports. Frankly, I'm glad theirs a fight in Congress over it. Its about time they get off their butts and actually do something constructive for America. Hopefully they'll keep crossing into our nation illegal and pose stiffer penalties on them and to those who help them.
The plan about granting all immigrants some kind of citizenship. You know, the one you were commenting on. Also, there are most likely better things congress can do to be constructive.

As far as the 10%, it's most likely because we send them back across the border. If the 75% were a national average, then i would agree with you. If we spent more time actually granting some kind of citizenship to these immigrants, issuing them social security cards and such, they would be easier to find, and the warrants wouldn't be outstanding.

Sure they would. And maybe the fact that special interest groups have passed "sanctuary laws" preventing the police from doing their jobs and the larger portion of illegal immigrants are along the borders of the country they come from have nothing to do w/ the numbers.

http://www.predatoryaliens.com/pr/04/nov/02/2_aliens_wanted.htm

Apparently you haven't read about the various gangs of illegal immigrants that operate in this country or that an increased number aren't from Mexico.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-02-22-border-patrol_x.htm

It's easier just to cry racism.

The plan about granting all immigrants some kind of citizenship. You know, the one you were commenting on. Also, there are most likely better things congress can do to be constructive.

Tell that to the border states who are hurting economically because of these illegal immigrants.

Bad things happen. Stopping immigration by force will not change that.
sure bad things happen, but bad things are also preventable (such as crime by illegals)... What other methods of stopping the flow of illegals do you propose?

Tell that to the border states who are hurting economically because of these illegal immigrants.
I think that even they would agree that not sending troops to die for an overall-stupid reason is more constructive than sending troops to the border.

What plan would that be? I know of several plans and one that makes me shake my head on and that's the one bush supports. Frankly, I'm glad theirs a fight in Congress over it. Its about time they get off their butts and actually do something constructive for America. Hopefully they'll keep crossing into our nation illegal and pose stiffer penalties on them and to those who help them.

You want a plan? Simple: Every employer that doesn't fill out a W-4 form properly for each employee is charged with a count of Tax Fraud per untaxed employee.

Simple. Easy. ANd will solve ALL illegal immigration problems. Done. Next?

No shit, sherlock! One of the reason why they're outstanding is because the suspects are hard to find. What you're saying is that illegal immgrants are hard to keep track of. Duh. :rolleyes:

But tell me this: What percentage of TOTAL murder warrants are on illegal immigrants?

For total felonies, about 66%

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

So when are we going to put troops on the northern border too? Im tired of all the god damn canadians comming down here.

Sure they would. And maybe the fact that special interest groups have passed "sanctuary laws" preventing the police from doing their jobs and the larger portion of illegal immigrants are along the borders of the country they come from have nothing to do w/ the numbers.

http://www.predatoryaliens.com/pr/04/nov/02/2_aliens_wanted.htm

Apparently you haven't read about the various gangs of illegal immigrants that operate in this country or that an increased number aren't from Mexico.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-02-22-border-patrol_x.htm

It's easier just to cry racism.
I don't recall crying racism. If you refer to my use of the word 'spic', i was using flavored context. I'm also aware that Mexico doesn't have a monopoly on illegal immigrants; please, have evidence before assuming i'm retarded. You should also realize that illegal immigrants do not have a monopoly on gangs, either.

sure bad things happen, but bad things are also preventable (such as crime by illegals)... What other methods of stopping the flow of illegals do you propose?
SOME bad things are preventable, yes. Occasionally, people die from amusement park rides. Should we then ban all park rides?

slightly off topic :P

but it'd be funny to see a war on gangs... y'know, kinda like the war on terror :P

... Next?
Possible corruption/conspiracy involving the Catholic Church and vending machine manufacturers.

I don't recall crying racism. If you refer to my use of the word 'spic', i was using flavored context. I'm also aware that Mexico doesn't have a monopoly on illegal immigrants; please, have evidence before assuming i'm retarded. You should also realize that illegal immigrants do not have a monopoly on gangs, either.

Being that I'm the one presenting evidence and your "flavored context" implied racism on the part of those opposed to criminal activities, your arguement is weak.

When illegal immigrants are committing crimes out of proportion to their numbers and make up significant portions of violent gangs, giving out more green cards is not the answer.

SOME bad things are preventable, yes. Occasionally, people die from amusement park rides. Should we then ban all park rides?
ok, you're making an over generalization here. I know you're a writer, but c'mon, stop w/ the flair for dramatics.

No we shouldn't ban all park rides, however we should do regular maintenance to try and prevent accidents (i.e. use force to stop illegals).

For total felonies, about 66%

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

You're saying the same thing! That illegal aliens are among the hardest people to find. I want to know how many VIOLENT CRIMES are committed by illegal immigrants as opposed to american citizens. I will then compare that number to the estimates of illegal immigrants to discern if immigrants are MORE likely to be violent or less.

All your figures are telling me is that violent illegals are harder to find than violent citizens. That's obvious.

SOME bad things are preventable, yes. Occasionally, people die from amusement park rides. Should we then ban all park rides?


STOP THE RIDES!!!! dey tuk er lives!(instead of jobs)

Possible corruption/conspiracy involving the Catholic Church and vending machine manufacturers.

I'll have a special task force of ninja clowns look into the allegations. :)

Being that I'm the one presenting evidence and your "flavored context" implied racism on the part of those opposed to criminal activities, your arguement is weak.

When illegal immigrants are committing crimes out of proportion to their numbers and make up significant portions of violent gangs, giving out more green cards is not the answer.
I don't believe handing out green cards will stop cime at all. I also don't think posting guards along the border will help either. So the percentages of illegal immigrant involvement will drop, ok. Gangs will still exist. The murders done by illegal immigrants will instead be done my legal citizens, which is so much better, isn't it?

ok, you're making an over generalization here. I know you're a writer, but c'mon, stop w/ the flair for dramatics.

No we shouldn't ban all park rides, however we should do regular maintenance to try and prevent accidents (i.e. use force to stop illegals).
I understand, but posting national guard troops along the border and calling them 'maintenance' is a gross understatement. It's a lot closer to 'ban' than maintenance in my opinion.

I'll have a special task force of ninja clowns look into the allegations. :)
I preffer nun clowns

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d74/eric-rogge/Halloween%202005/DSC03535.jpg

You're saying the same thing! That illegal aliens are among the hardest people to find. I want to know how many VIOLENT CRIMES are committed by illegal immigrants as opposed to american citizens. I will then compare that number to the estimates of illegal immigrants to discern if immigrants are MORE likely to be violent or less.

All your figures are telling me is that violent illegals are harder to find than violent citizens. That's obvious.

LG. IT says 2/3s of felony warrants. Not outstanding warrants.

I preffer nun clowns

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d74/eric-rogge/Halloween%202005/DSC03535.jpg
I must concur; nun clowns would be more effective.

LG. IT says 2/3s of felony warrants. Not outstanding warrants.

FUGITIVE felony warrants. Different word, same meaning.

I don't believe handing out green cards will stop cime at all. I also don't think posting guards along the border will help either. So the percentages of illegal immigrant involvement will drop, ok. Gangs will still exist. The murders done by illegal immigrants will instead be done my legal citizens, which is so much better, isn't it?

So you're saying that crime would stay exaclty the same? You don't think preventing prior criminals from entering the country will reduce the number of crimes? Care to provide any evidence for that hypothesis?

I preffer nun clowns

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d74/eric-rogge/Halloween%202005/DSC03535.jpg

Clearly a ninja clown in disguise and considering the allegations, an excelent one. :)

So you're saying that crime would stay exaclty the same? You don't think preventing prior criminals from entering the country will reduce the number of crimes? Care to provide any evidence for that hypothesis?
I'm saying that crime will still exist. You cannot say that all illegal immigrants are criminals outside of laws broken crossing the border. Armed troops on the border will stop some criminals, yes, but how long do you think it will be effective? They will find other ways into the country. I know my previous statement was vague and mildly stupid, forgive me.

Clearly a ninja clown in disguise and considering the allegations, an excelent one. :)
If you wanted to get better efficiency, a ninja nun, or better yet, a ninja nun clown.

FUGITIVE felony warrants. Different word, same meaning.

http://www.usbc.org/usbc/info/2004/nov/criminals.htm

In October 2004, nearly 2,500 illegals arrested had criminal records or warrants for their arrests. The breakdown for October's arrests of illegal immigrants with criminal records or warrants are:

* Homicide - 9
* Dangerous drugs - 244
* Sex offenses - 38
* Robbery, burglary or larceny - 189
* Immigration offenses - 1,293
* Other, to include kidnapping, arson, extortion, fraud, bribery and weapon charges - 608
* Outstanding warrants - 126
* Attempted murder - 1

We should have Border Guards. The USSR had Border Guards. An actual service branch dedicated to keeping people from entering. Of course it was really more to keep people from leaving. While we're taking cues from the USSR, though, we should try to make our country so bad more people will want to leave than come in. That would solve the illegal immigration problem.

http://www.usbc.org/usbc/info/2004/nov/criminals.htm

In October 2004, nearly 2,500 illegals arrested had criminal records or warrants for their arrests. The breakdown for October's arrests of illegal immigrants with criminal records or warrants are:

* Homicide - 9
* Dangerous drugs - 244
* Sex offenses - 38
* Robbery, burglary or larceny - 189
* Immigration offenses - 1,293
* Other, to include kidnapping, arson, extortion, fraud, bribery and weapon charges - 608
* Outstanding warrants - 126
* Attempted murder - 1
Immigration offenses are a given, so no point including those. You've managed to find arrest numbers, but no overall numbers to compare them too. Also, it is no surprise that some criminals arrested will have warrants for their arrest.

I'm saying that crime will still exist. You cannote say that all illegal immigrants are criminals outside of laws broken crossing the border. Armed troops on the border will stop some criminals, yes, but how long do you think it will be effective? They will find other ways into the country. I know my previous statement was vague and mildly stupid, forgive me.

I never said it would stop crime completely. You said the difference would be made up by US citizens. I also didn't say that "all" illegal immigrants were violent criminals. I said a disproportionate number.

I have no problem w/ fixing the system to make it easier for those actually looking for work to get "worker visas" but still support a tougher stand on illegal immigration and on those already here. Something like a short amnesty to apply for one/register. If they have a non-immigration offense, deportation. If they don't apply during the amnesty, deportation.

I never said it would stop crime completely. You said the difference would be made up by US citizens. I also didn't say that "all" illegal immigrants were violent criminals. I said a disproportionate number.

I have no problem w/ fixing the system to make it easier for those actually looking for work to get "worker visas" but still support a tougher stand on illegal immigration and on those already here. Something like a short amnesty to apply for one/register. If they have a non-immigration offense, deportation. If they don't apply during the amnesty, deportation.
Okay, agreed. All i'm really trying to say is that i sincerely doubt that troop presence on the border is going to help much.

Immigration offenses are a given, so no point including those. You've managed to find arrest numbers, but no overall numbers to compare them too. Also, it is no surprise that some criminals arrested will have warrants for their arrest.

Even if you just extrapolate the arrest numbers, the homicide offense rate is 360/100K. The non-immigration offense rate is about 50%. Even a tenth of that is twice as high as US citizen offense rates (about 2.5%)

Okay, agreed. All i'm really trying to say is that i sincerely doubt that troop presence on the border is going to help much.
we can only wait and see..

http://www.usbc.org/usbc/info/2004/nov/criminals.htm

In October 2004, nearly 2,500 illegals arrested had criminal records or warrants for their arrests. The breakdown for October's arrests of illegal immigrants with criminal records or warrants are:

* Homicide - 9
* Dangerous drugs - 244
* Sex offenses - 38
* Robbery, burglary or larceny - 189
* Immigration offenses - 1,293
* Other, to include kidnapping, arson, extortion, fraud, bribery and weapon charges - 608
* Outstanding warrants - 126
* Attempted murder - 1

What I am wondering if the sample was 2500 ILLIGALS how they only have 1293 Immigrations offences

One would figure if they were illegal they would automaticly have an "immigration offence"

http://www.usbc.org/usbc/info/2004/nov/criminals.htm

In October 2004, nearly 2,500 illegals arrested had criminal records or warrants for their arrests. The breakdown for October's arrests of illegal immigrants with criminal records or warrants are:

* Homicide - 9
* Dangerous drugs - 244
* Sex offenses - 38
* Robbery, burglary or larceny - 189
* Immigration offenses - 1,293
* Other, to include kidnapping, arson, extortion, fraud, bribery and weapon charges - 608
* Outstanding warrants - 126
* Attempted murder - 1

THese are illegals arrested that already had been arrested before. WHich means this doesn't include first-time arrests of illegals.

Unfortunately, you are going to have a hard time finding raw statistics that haven't been manipulated to the advantage of a specific agenda.

What I want is either: A percentage of how many suspects in violent crimes were illegal immigrants.

or

THe number of suspects in violent crimes that were illegan immigrants(as finding the number of suspects in violent crimes shouldn't be too hard for me to find on my own).

I haven't been able to find these statistics. I suspect they are too close to the truth: The majority of illegal immigrants keep a low profile and their noses clean to stay out of the way of police.

I suspect that if you compared the percentage of violent crimes commited by illegals to the estimated percentage of the population consisting of illegal immigrants, you would find that illegals are LESS likely to be violent than american citizens.

But as I said, unbiased data is impossible to find.

I'm all for border security, but this sounds like a circumventing of the Constitution under the posse comitatus provisions. States have not issued formal requests for aid yet.

What I am wondering if the sample was 2500 ILLIGALS how they only have 1293 Immigrations offences

One would figure if they were illegal they would automaticly have an "immigration offence"

because these are arrests of previously convicted or accused illegals.

In other words, these people were already criminals before they were arrested. These numbers don't help.

We should have Border Guards. The USSR had Border Guards. An actual service branch dedicated to keeping people from entering. Of course it was really more to keep people from leaving. While we're taking cues from the USSR, though, we should try to make our country so bad more people will want to leave than come in. That would solve the illegal immigration problem.

The USSR also had houses....

What are you trying to say, that just because we have something in common with another nation means that its automatically evil and makes us evil?

because these are arrests of [/i]previously convicted[/i] or accused illegals.

In other words, these people were already criminals before they were arrested. These numbers don't help.
Ahhh I see so 1200 of them had already been caught for immigration stuff before.

Makes sense now, but this data does not really suport the claim that illigals cause more crime then the general population does it?

http://www.usbc.org/usbc/info/2004/nov/criminals.htm

In October 2004, nearly 2,500 illegals arrested had criminal records or warrants for their arrests. The breakdown for October's arrests of illegal immigrants with criminal records or warrants are:

* Homicide - 9
* Dangerous drugs - 244
* Sex offenses - 38
* Robbery, burglary or larceny - 189
* Immigration offenses - 1,293
* Other, to include kidnapping, arson, extortion, fraud, bribery and weapon charges - 608
* Outstanding warrants - 126
* Attempted murder - 1
Might you come up with a source that doesn't come with a hard right tilt? City Journal is run by a hard right editor named Myron Magnet and one of the contributors is Victor Davis Hanson. USBC.org proudly displays kudos from Dana Rohrabacher and Tom Tancredo. They wouldn't have an agenda, huh? They wouldn't be above massaging statistics to make the situation seem worse than it is, would they? Find some data without an agenda, if you please.

I Don't care what you think about this issue but really, before I'm going to listen to you your going to need some sources to back up what you're saying!!!

Might you come up with a source that doesn't come with a hard right tilt? City Journal is run by a hard right editor named Myron Magnet and one of the contributors is Victor Davis Hanson. USBC.org proudly displays kudos from Dana Rohrabacher and Tom Tancredo. They wouldn't have an agenda, huh? They wouldn't be above massaging statistics to make the situation seem worse than it is, would they? Find some data without an agenda, if you please.

Care to find anything that contradicts it? If you please.

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/2000ExecSumm.pdf

The proper solution to this is the work visa idea. It answers all of those people who say things like "we need illegals to do all the dirty jobs that we do not want to" cause they are still here to do them. However, it is done in a way that the government can control the aspects of it that are neccesary. None of the border states have good public education (or at least California, which is ranked 48th or so). Why? Because so many illegals are in the system without paying taxes. Work visas lets them get these taxes, and frankly everyone can win. Also, the drug trafficing will go down, as those Hollywood dealers demonstrate (if illegals are their primary labor source, connect the dots). Also, they are more easily prosecuted for the crimes they commit (i do not have the source, but will find it, but it said that on the day of the giant immigration rights rally, shoplifting went down 68%). And all illegals get deported after this has been implemented. Give all of the illegals currently here a chance to apply for a year long visa, as opposed to a five year normal one, the kick them out and let them try to re-apply later. After the time given for registration is up, illegal means deport. And then you have people guarding the borders, because, despite the rediculousness of many of Bush's actions regarding them, terrorists can obviously get across a border that is this porous. This solution seems to give the potential for everyone to be happy, while accomplishing what actually needs to be done

Care to find anything that contradicts it? If you please.

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/2000ExecSumm.pdf
Nothing in that document about crime. Did you mean that one or perhaps another one?

Look, I'm not saying that the stats given by those groups are necessarily bogus or even that they've been massaged (though I expect they have been, given the history of the debate). I'm just asking for some statistics outside any agenda driven context.

Care to find anything that contradicts it? If you please.

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/2000ExecSumm.pdf
Why bother? From what I can tell it does not correctly address or support the hypothesis that you seemed to put forth … that illegals cause more crime then the general population.

If I am confused at what you were trying to prove with those statistics by all means correct me

So--signed up for the Guard yet, Corny? You're always so ready to send other people to do dirty work, but never quite ready to do it yourself.

Besides, where exactly are all these Guardsmen going to come from? Are they going to be the ones who currently have PTSD from their time in Iraq? Can't be them, because they're being sent back to the front lines. Maybe it'll be those guys between tours in Iraq. Or maybe it'll be a group of autistic kids who don't know what they're signing up for.

But one thing's for certain--it won't be you, Corny, because you have other things to do. :rolleyes:
Actually the number of Guard troops in Iraq has decreased by several tens of thousands. I believe at the high point the total number of Guard troops over there was something like fifty-five thousand. Now the total number of guard troops over there is about twenty-two thousand.

Ahhh I see so 1200 of them had already been caught for immigration stuff before.

Makes sense now, but this data does not really suport the claim that illigals cause more crime then the general population does it?

Nope.

The closest I can find is:

Accorting to the UsDoJ(Department of Justice) bureau of statistics, 60.9% of violent crimes are committed by whites and 36.9 by blacks. That leaves 2.2% by others.

Considering that as much as 5% of the population of the United states consists of illegal immigrants, that means that they are less than half as likely to commit violent crimes.

...IF you consider mexicans(hispanic) to be a race. If they have been sorted by ethnicity into the 'white' race category, then that figure is useless. I wish I coud tell you for certain. But I'm thinking that it's probably sorted by race.

Oh, and that 2.2% also includes asians, indians, etc. :p

Nope.

The closest I can find is:

Accorting to the UsDoJ(Department of Justice) bureau of statistics, 60.9% of violent crimes are committed by whites and 36.9 by blacks. That leaves 2.2% by others.

Considering that as much as 5% of the population of the United states consists of illegal immigrants, that means that they are less than half as likely to commit violent crimes.

...IF you consider mexicans(hispanic) to be a race. If they have been sorted by ethnicity into the 'white' race category, then that figure is useless. I wish I coud tell you for certain. But I'm thinking that it's probably sorted by race.

Oh, and that 2.2% also includes asians, indians, etc. :pThose stats make no sense. Look at any jail or prison in the Southwest US and you'll find a majority Hispanic population. They must be rolling Hispanics into the white catagorie.

This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard outside of a politician from either party.
You said it yourself. Right here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10959800&postcount=23), your top line. Deemed not good enough. That's an accurate description. Unless your medical paperwork says you are far too good.

Those stats make no sense. Look at any jail or prison in the Southwest US and you'll find a majority Hispanic population. They must be rolling Hispanics into the white catagorie.
They are--White Not Hispanic is a relatively new category and I don't know if it's been picked up on by everyone yet. It came to light as an issue two years ago in Florida when Jebbie tried to keep knocking brown people off the voter rolls and the press discovered that there were few, if any, Hispanic names on the list to be struck (they'd been lumped in with the white folk).

They are--White Not Hispanic is a relatively new category and I don't know if it's been picked up on by everyone yet. It came to light as an issue two years ago in Florida when Jebbie tried to keep knocking brown people off the voter rolls and the press discovered that there were few, if any, Hispanic names on the list to be struck (they'd been lumped in with the white folk).
Okay, because I did a 13 day stint in Los Angeles County Central Jail a few years ago and I was a trustee. My job as a trustee was to empty trash bins. Some of the bins I had to empty were on what is called the "High Power Block" where they kept all teh violent, gang related offenders and though I obviously wasn't allowed to do a demographic study, I feel completely justified in saying more than half were Hispanic. The largest gangs in Southern California, maybe even the US, are Hispanic gangs. 18th Street, Mara Salvatrucha, White Fence, San Fer Locos, Pacoima Flats, these are huge gangs and they are all Hispanic.

Those stats make no sense. Look at any jail or prison in the Southwest US and you'll find a majority Hispanic population. They must be rolling Hispanics into the white catagorie.

'Majority' is a bit strong,

but of 1,237,500 sentenced prisoners in state prisons in 2002, 250,000 of them were hispanic. 112,500 of them committed a violent crime.
ABout 9%.

You are right, though. That doesn't jibe with the 2.2% arrest rate... unless you consider the difference between arrests and convictions. But I can't figure that out.

Okay, because I did a 13 day stint in Los Angeles County Central Jail a few years ago and I was a trustee. My job as a trustee was to empty trash bins. Some of the bins I had to empty were on what is called the "High Power Block" where they kept all teh violent, gang related offenders and though I obviously wasn't allowed to do a demographic study, I feel completely justified in saying more than half were Hispanic. The largest gangs in Southern California, maybe even the US, are Hispanic gangs. 18th Street, Mara Salvatrucha, White Fence, San Fer Locos, Pacoima Flats, these are huge gangs and they are all Hispanic.
So there are more Hispanics in a jail from what is probably primarily a Hispanic area … go figure.

To make this data mean something you really have to compare it to the population in general of the area it is responsible for

For all we know it could be as stupid as saying “prisons in china contain 90 percent Chinese inmates” Well duh!

So there are more Hispanics in a jail from what is probably primarily a Hispanic area … go figure.

To make this data mean something you really have to compare it to the population in general of the area it is responsible for

For all we know it could be as stupid as saying “prisons in china contain 90 percent Chinese inmates” Well duh!
I'm not making that argument. I was just calling BS on the 2% stat for hispanics.

So when are we going to put troops on the northern border too? Im tired of all the god damn canadians comming down here.

Goddamn right!

Alan Thicke, k.d. Lang, Celine Dion... Get 'em the hell out! :p

Okay, because I did a 13 day stint in Los Angeles County Central Jail a few years ago and I was a trustee. My job as a trustee was to empty trash bins. Some of the bins I had to empty were on what is called the "High Power Block" where they kept all teh violent, gang related offenders and though I obviously wasn't allowed to do a demographic study, I feel completely justified in saying more than half were Hispanic. The largest gangs in Southern California, maybe even the US, are Hispanic gangs. 18th Street, Mara Salvatrucha, White Fence, San Fer Locos, Pacoima Flats, these are huge gangs and they are all Hispanic.

Good post.

Very informing.

No, he was talking about how this action is a cloying piece of PR BS. If you want real protection on the southern border, funding the border patrol and the INS is a galactically better idea than the retarded chest thumping that this move, more than obviously, is.

The funding is second to the mission. And their current mission is not to prevent illegal immigration.

Last time they tried that, the word came down to stop rounding up illegals.

There is a prison for illegals a few miles from my home in Southern California. And I wish they would fill it up...

Good post.

Very informing.

Please let this be sarcasm. :p

They are--White Not Hispanic is a relatively new category and I don't know if it's been picked up on by everyone yet. It came to light as an issue two years ago in Florida when Jebbie tried to keep knocking brown people off the voter rolls and the press discovered that there were few, if any, Hispanic names on the list to be struck (they'd been lumped in with the white folk).

Yes, I mentioned that possibility in the post. I wish there had been a way to be certain, but there was no definition provided. Even in the appendices.

Please let this be sarcasm. :p
Why? What was wrong with my post? It said exactly what I wanted it to say:

"While I don't have the demographic evidence to prove it, my personal experince leads me to believe that the percentage of Hispanic offenders is much higher than 2%."

If you really believe that Hispanics make up 2% or less of violent offenders I'd like your phone number so I can sell you some stock option contracts. :)

Why? What was wrong with my post? It said exactly what I wanted it to say:

"While I don't have the demographic evidence to prove it, my personal experince leads me to believe that the percentage of Hispanic offenders is much higher than 2%."

If you really believe that Hispanics make up 2% or less of violent offenders I'd like your phone number so I can sell you some stock option contracts. :)

Sorry, all my money is tied up in my new bridge in New York and the florida swampland I recently purchased. I love real estate. :)

I did express my doubt in that 2.2% figure in the post itself as well as my desire for more pertinent numbers. What I really want is to find out the percentage of violent crimes committed by illegal immigrants.

My 'I hope that's sarcasm' comment wasn't directed at the quality ofthe post, but merely to Atlantian Island's reaction to the anecdotal account as if it was some sort of revelation.

Sorry, all my money is tied up in my new bridge in New York and the florida swampland I recently purchased. I love real estate. :)

I did express my doubt in that 2.2% figure in the post itself as well as my desire for more pertinent numbers. What I really want is to find out the percentage of violent crimes committed by illegal immigrants.

My 'I hope that's sarcasm' comment wasn't directed at the quality ofthe post, but merely to Atlantian Island's reaction to the anecdotal account as if it was some sort of revelation.
Fair enough.

This isn't exactly what you were looking for, but it is headed in that direction.

Inmate Demographics

1,343,164 men were under the jurisdiction of state or federal prison authorities on Dec. 31, 2002, an increase of 2.4 percent from Dec. 31, 2001, to Dec. 31, 2002.
97,491 women were under the jurisdiction of state or federal prison authorities on Dec. 31, 2002, an increase of 4.9 percent from Dec. 31, 2001, to Dec. 31, 2002.
Black and Hispanic inmates together make up 62 percent of the prison population
Approximately 46 percent of all prison inmates (excluding those whose race was not reported) were black; 36 percent, white; 16 percent, Hispanic; 1 percent, American Indian or Alaska Native; and 1 percent, Asian or Pacific Islander
46 percent of inmates were incarcerated for a violent offence
http://www.aca.org/government/population.asp

Please let this be sarcasm. :p

No, its not.

I said good post because I'm glad someone called out Nazz on the bullshit he was talking about.

Dont look to deep into it.:D

iss time a kep them mexicuns off ur bardur!


goblessuh murka

No, its not.

I said good post because I'm glad someone called out Nazz on the bullshit he was talking about.

Dont look to deep into it.:D

See, maybe I'm the wacko here, but I thought Dan was agreeing with Nazz. :p

No, its not.

I said good post because I'm glad someone called out Nazz on the bullshit he was talking about.

Dont look to deep into it.:DThen you need to go back and look at the posts in context, because Psychotic Dan didn't call me out on anything.

Then you need to go back and look at the posts in context, because Psychotic Dan didn't call me out on anything.
I didn't think I did, either. But okay!

Screw you, asshole!!!! :mad:

I didn't think I did, either. But okay!

Screw you, asshole!!!! :mad:

YAY! :D

I didn't think I did, either. But okay!

Screw you, asshole!!!! :mad:
I wonder, is The Atlantian islands like Corneliu in training? He seems to be following the same posting career path.

I wonder, is The Atlantian islands like Corneliu in training? He seems to be following the same posting career path.

Atlantian Islands is a closet white supremacist.

Corneliu is at worst a closet closet white supremacist. THough, as not to accuse someone of being racist when they're not, I suspect he is merely a young angry conservative. It can be hard to tell the difference sometimes. :p

Atlantian Islands is a closet white supremacist.

Corneliu is at worst a closet closet white supremacist. THough, as not to accuse someone of being racist when they're not, I suspect he is merely a young angry conservative. It can be hard to tell the difference sometimes. :p

Good thing you are not accusing me of being racist because I am not. As to being a young angry conservative, I'm not that either.

Atlantian Islands is a closet white supremacist.

Corneliu is at worst a closet closet white supremacist. THough, as not to accuse someone of being racist when they're not, I suspect he is merely a young angry conservative. It can be hard to tell the difference sometimes. :p
I was thinking more of their apparent inabilities to hold onto even the simplest thread of a conversation.

I was thinking more of their apparent inabilities to hold onto even the simplest thread of a conversation.

That's merely a symptom. :)

As to being a young angry conservative, I'm not that either.
It's OK. I went through that phase too. ;)

I was thinking more of their apparent inabilities to hold onto even the simplest thread of a conversation.

Oh I can hold a conversation however I do not hold to a conversation with those who decide to debase themselves by attacking someone's character.

Oh I can hold a conversation however I do not hold to a conversation with those who decide to debase themselves by attacking someone's character.


You never cast aspersions on Mr Schiavo's character did you?

Oh I can hold a conversation however I do not hold to a conversation with those who decide to debase themselves by attacking someone's character.No talking to yourself, then?

It's OK. I went through that phase too. ;)
I did as well ... with my family I deffinatly started out to the right ... thank god I moved down and to the center lol

Good thing you are not accusing me of being racist because I am not. As to being a young angry conservative, I'm not that either.

I don't assume racism of people lightly.

But I don't understand how it's so easy to focus on the actions of desperate people and not on those feeding that desperation. I wonder if people would feel differently if illegal immigrants were a bit paler and spoke better english. I suspect they might. :(

I don't assume racism of people lightly.

But I don't understand how it's so easy to focus on the actions of desperate people and not on those feeding that desperation. I wonder if people would feel differently if illegal immigrants were a bit paler and spoke better english. I suspect they might. :(
Like, for instance, the Irish who pop up in Boston and south Florida all the time?

I don't assume racism of people lightly.

But I don't understand how it's so easy to focus on the actions of desperate people and not on those feeding that desperation. I wonder if people would feel differently if illegal immigrants were a bit paler and spoke better english. I suspect they might. :(



When immigrants were white people from europe the motto was "give us your tired, your poor, &c."

You never cast aspersions on Mr Schiavo's character did you?

For which I have apologized for.

When immigrants were white people from europe the motto was "give us your tired, your poor, &c."

They were fairly pale, weren't they?

They were fairly pale, weren't they?
White's alright. Brown's going down. That's the right-wing motto, it seems.

White's alright. Brown's going down. That's the right-wing motto, it seems.

Ah, yes...cuz all Right Wingers are racist against brown people...:rolleyes:

Man....this, right after you just cried about my joke of stereotyping arabs.

But, wait...it's ok for you to do it right, just not me?

Isnt that the motto of the liberal left?

It took long enough, didn't it?

Immigration is the lifeblood of the USA, but illegal immigration is a poison. I say, keep the National Guard on the border and cut down the red tape that ties up legal immigrants from entering the country for twenty years.

+1

I am not an American, but amen to Corneliu's OP. :)

Ah, yes...cuz all Right Wingers are racist against brown people...:rolleyes:

Man....this, right after you just cried about my joke of stereotyping arabs.

But, wait...it's ok for you to do it right, just not me?

Isnt that the motto of the liberal left?
My apologies. I should have said "the far-right-wing motto."

We're talking about a full military deployment in the Middle East here, including all of the US reservist etc.

The general population of the USA is pretty foolish if it thinks it can stand up to the PLA.

One interesting thing about the US military is that we have what are called the State Defence Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Guard). In WWII these were mobilized by the various state governors, especially the coastal states. By law these troops are not allowed to operate outside the territory (or territorial waters in the case of the Naval Militias) of the state that owns them. Also, during a proper war the states are allowed to raise armies if they need to.

Of course these troops wouldn't stand very long against the PLA, but it's just interesting to note that there is no time in which the US wouldn't have some form of defence force. But with the right equipment and a bit of luck these forces could possibly succeed in hampering an invasion.

My apologies. I should have said "the far-right-wing motto."

While the far-left-wing motto would be that they are racist against all minorities, but even more so blacks!

Because according to you guys, blacks/other sorted minorities are just too damn stupid and backward to compete with Whites so they need all sorts of help from the government to give them money, get them into school, fill up commercials with them..ect.

I am not an American, but amen to Corneliu's OP. :)

Yeah, it's about damn time.

So how soon till the draft? And can I get out of it if my eye sight is really really bad?

Kidding, but America's soldiers seem to be a little too spread out. I don't know the exact numbers, but soldiers are a limited resource, and we don't want a national disaster happening and not have enough Gaurdsmen nearby to help.

Minuteman.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of guys who aren't physically fit enough for the military who would make good enough border patrol guys.

Oh, and a WALL doesn't require any troops. Neither do MINEFIELDS.

I don't assume racism of people lightly.

But I don't understand how it's so easy to focus on the actions of desperate people and not on those feeding that desperation. I wonder if people would feel differently if illegal immigrants were a bit paler and spoke better english. I suspect they might. :(


i could easily assume that comment was rascist...presuming if they were paler one would feel differently...pot calling the kettle black?

When immigrants were white people from europe the motto was "give us your tired, your poor, &c."


They obeyed the laws. Border jumpers don't.

Don't see a problem with this at all. When we trained for desert combat we trained in Yakima, Washington. Was a desert enviroment against a phantom force. The area in question on the border resembles Iraq and Afghanistan. Alot of training that was done was communication and deployment processes. Now I can see this as being a golden opportunity to deploy in a real world situation. Without the shooting of course. But this would be a great exercise in communication and deployment. The troops most likely will not be on the front lines of this. As I have heard basically logistical support for the border patrol. So don't see any reason not do this. Just replace part of the desert warfare training currently being done by Guard units and transfer them to the border. This is a no brainer. Plus it will help immensely with the current circus at the border.

i could easily assume that comment was rascist...presuming if they were paler one would feel differently...pot calling the kettle black?

I like you. YOu're silly. :)

P.S.: And I'm hispanic. :p

i could easily assume that comment was rascist...presuming if they were paler one would feel differently...pot calling the kettle black?
You know what happens when you assume ...

Not only is he hispanic but pointing out how the public may be acting on racist motivations is not being racist in of itself

Is it REALLY that hard to understand?