NationStates Jolt Archive

They are not genuine. They haven't been recognized by any international court, the american goverment or actually any instance outside the Chávez administration. Even I could fabricate some similar documents easily..

Could you show me where they are discredited? Could you explain why the issue of US funding, revealed through similar documents from other US agencies has been circulated widely amongst the international press and not been exposed as fake.


You seem to be the one "whingeing" when someone contradict your Lord Hero Hugo Rafael...

Actually I came upon the site looking for that specifc documentation rather than an individual, but as the documents are (as far as I know) gfenuine, I have no problem wirh that individual. And its not Hugo that I object to being contradicted, its the truth.


Business people asociated with Carmona, the guy that tried to take advantage of the power void left by the Chávez resign, indeed left our country. They should be in jail for what they did, they tried to violate the constitution and place Venezuela under another unlegitimate regime. I'm not against what you said regarding the Recao brothers and the others, but that's not the point.

"tried to take advantage". Didn't you say earlier that the individual the soldiers left in charge made a mess of things? Surely this implies they were linked. Why was he and his cohorts involved in officers redusing an order? Did they have a sudden wave of psychic urgency to rush to the Palace? Why was the US so quick to recognise the regime, and why do the US documents keep mentioning "Business leaders" and "Business people"?

"Venezuelan coup plotter 'in Miami' by David Adams
In the aftermath of Venezuela's failed coup, the United States faces further potential embarrassment after the discovery that several alleged coup leaders fled to Miami.
They include Isaac Pérez Recao, 32, a reputed arms-dealer and heir to a Venezuelan oil fortune. With a group of armed bodyguards, Señor Pérez Recao played a highly visible role in the April 12-13 coup, according to reports in Caracas. As the coup unraveled, he is said to have jumped into a private helicopter and escaped to the Caribbean island of Aruba.

He and his brother and business partner, Vicente Pérez Recao, were seen later in Miami, where they own properties. They did not return telephone calls to their $500,000 beachfront flat in Key Biscayne, a wealthy island suburb of Miami.

Under US law, the Secretary of State has the power to deny entry visas or revoke their issuance to persons deemed to have "potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States". This power has been used in recent cases against Haitian military officers and civilians alleged to have been involved in plotting a coup. It was also applied to President Chávez after he led an unsuccessful coup attempt in 1992.

The Venezuelan Government has asked the US for clarification of its response to the failed coup, which Washington appeared at first to welcome, but it has yet to make any official comment about the presence of the Pérez Recao family on US soil.

Close advisers to President Chávez have called on the US to take swift action. "They should be taking the same position with these people as they did with us," Lieutenant- Colonel Wilmer Castro, a former air force officer who helped to restore Señor Chávez to power, said.

US officials declined to discuss the involvement of Señor Pérez Recao, saying that they are still investigating what went on during the coup. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-277341,00.html

No mention of Soldiers there. Cushy exile though.



My o my. Righteous aggression of David Perle proportions. The documents are all released under FOIA. Have a read (or deny they're real).

http://www.venezuelafoia.info/ciaa4.html

http://www.venezuelafoia.info/ciab4.html




Even were I a stranger to the phenomena, I feel your posts would awaken my awareness of its existence.



Well, he seems to be correct on that score at least.


1)There are some four hundred people who were to be investigated in Venezuela for their roles in a coup before Chavez signalled there wouldnt be a witchhunt. That NY Times article only has a handful of people...not exactly a mass exodus, and not exactly damning. The US does accept refugees on political basis all the time.

2)The documents of the CIA, are kinda suspicious, but if they are authentic all they prove is that the CIA suspected that a coup was in the works and that through their network of informants and spies it might take place . No where does it say the CIA is supplying guns, or support. If anything the portions that are visable pretty much say all the CIA is doing at that time is watching whats going on and making speculations as to what might happen. Again whats the point here? That we've got an intel network in Venezuela? Thats nothing new. The US has an extensive spy network in South America, its been there for decades and went from cold war esponiage to drug cartel location,observation and destruction, to other things.

3)Are you refuting that Chavez is running a propoganda machine in Venezuela? That laws have been passed which deny the private press the ability to critize the Chavez government and its policies? Are you denying this fact is lockstep in line with how a dictatorship influences the opinion of its people? Or rather the run up to a dictatorship?

1)There are some four hundred people who were to be investigated in Venezuela for their roles in a coup before Chavez signalled there wouldnt be a witchhunt. That NY Times article only has a handful of people...not exactly a mass exodus, and not exactly damning. The US does accept refugees on political basis all the time.?

But as these were responsible for trying to overthrow a lawfully and internationally recognised democratic Government, they don't qualify. Unless, of course, the US doesnt feel like prosecuting them "for some reason".


2)The documents of the CIA, are kinda suspicious, but if they are authentic all they prove is that the CIA suspected that a coup was in the works and that through their network of informants and spies it might take place . No where does it say the CIA is supplying guns, or support. If anything the portions that are visable pretty much say all the CIA is doing at that time is watching whats going on and making speculations as to what might happen. Again whats the point here? That we've got an intel network in Venezuela? Thats nothing new. The US has an extensive spy network in South America, its been there for decades and went from cold war esponiage to drug cartel location,observation and destruction, to other things..?

Actually, the point I was trying to make was that (a) they knew of a coup being planned and (b) there were numerous references to "business leaders" being involved in same. This runs somewhat counter to the claims made that troops refused some order and embarked on a spontaneous revolt "on principle" as it were. As for funds, these are channelled through other organisations, and there is FOIA obtained documentation to show this. Whether covert funds are being currently sent by the CIA is a matter of speculation as they wouldnt be very covert if we knew.


3)Are you refuting that Chavez is running a propoganda machine in Venezuela??

Nope.


That laws have been passed which deny the private press the ability to critize the Chavez government and its policies? ??

Given the ownership of the private press by the oppossition its a hard one to call.


Are you denying this fact is lockstep in line with how a dictatorship influences the opinion of its people? Or rather the run up to a dictatorship?

Yep.

About the documents being false...They haven't been proved false, nor real. That itself makes them not trustworthy. The fact that what I can tell you haven't been denied doesn't make it truth. So, they're not genuine as far as I know, until they are recognized as such.

you're not looking for the truth, try again. Do not desestimate all sources outside the goverment media because "they are payed by the CIA".

Again, the private media in Venezuela is not owned by the opposition, even as they are opposed to the goverment for several measures taken by the administration, but no opposition parties are involved. They invite the president and goverment officials all the time to speak in their channels, the fact is that they never appear. Nor the private media take instructions from CIA or american organisms.

And opposition of a regime it's not supposed to mean censorship. Those same media that now oppose Chávez supported his campaign in 1998, and the goverment of Rafael Caldera back then didn't censured them for that. The media is not meant to support the goverment at all times whatever it happens, unless you are in Cuba.

The officers of the military that asked for the resign of Hugo Chávez denied their own support to the Carmona goverment instaured after April 11th. Those were separate movements. As I said, Carmona and his train tried to take adavantage of the power void after Chávez resigned. If he resigned, that's not a coup, right?.

About the US involvement in the recognition of the new goverment, I guess they were happy to have anyone in power but Chávez, but I have not enough sources in that matter to deny perhaps an involvement of the american administration in the rise of Carmona to power. Perhaps they advised Carmona to seize the opportunity and crown himself. He was extremely wrong, and most of the opposition backed away after his decree dissolving all the public powers, everyone knows that. His mistake caused the return of Chávez, due to the lack of support he received from the same locals that tried to kick Chávez out, and wasted our efforts to have a true democratic goverment. The right decision in that moment would had been a call to elections, including Chávez as candidate. After all, we didn't want a right wing dictator to replace a left wing dictator, that wasn't an improvement.

I'm not working on "implies". I cannot say they were linked because I have arguments to say they weren't. Carmona wasn't implied in the fact that the officers refused an order, I think he just saw through that a way to get the chair.

But as these were responsible for trying to overthrow a lawfully and internationally recognised democratic Government, they don't qualify. Unless, of course, the US doesnt feel like prosecuting them "for some reason".

This doesnt matter, if someone requests asylum its the country thats holding them that has the final say in the matter. If that country just happens to be at odds with the other government then thats too bad really. And examples of this are visable throughout the world even in western nations.


Actually, the point I was trying to make was that (a) they knew of a coup being planned and (b) there were numerous references to "business leaders" being involved in same. This runs somewhat counter to the claims made that troops refused some order and embarked on a spontaneous revolt "on principle" as it were. As for funds, these are channelled through other organisations, and there is FOIA obtained documentation to show this. Whether covert funds are being currently sent by the CIA is a matter of speculation as they wouldnt be very covert if we knew.

General Manuel Rosendo, chief of the National Unified Army Command (CUFAN) at the time, reported that he and others chose to disobey the president when he ordered them to apply Plan Avila, a contingency plan designed to deal with major disturbances. General Rosendo, and others within the chain of command, feared placing heavily armed troops around Miraflores would have given rise to a far worse massacre than the one witnessed

Nope..no mention of soldiers disobeying an order which lead to the coup anywhere...maybe if you looked harder?



Given the ownership of the private press by the oppossition its a hard one to call.
Oh honestly stop throwing up a strawman arguement. Even if they are slightly controlled by the opposition the denial of the freedom of the press is contrary to most democratic beliefs. Which is what makes your denial that this is one step away from a dictatorship so funny. You'll defend and be Chavez's apologist so much simply because you think he's a socialist when in reality his just another dictator who knows how to expliot the people.

I mean lets not forget, Saddam was elected with 100% of the vote. China constantly elects a government as well..they just all happen to be members of the same party and know the same people..

God has spoken to me on the matter of the Chavez regime.

Thus saith the Lord, the only true God who sees all, knows all and above all:
Worry not about Chavez. His system will not long endure for it is based not on love but on hate. God has heard the cries of the persecuted and the prayers of his afflicted children in Venezuela. But he is allowing these things to happen as a test of their faith.
God has said it is not for America to intervene in Venezuela for he has other plans for America.

God has spoken to me on the matter of the Chavez regime.

Thus saith the Lord, the only true God who sees all, knows all and above all:
Worry not about Chavez. His system will not long endure for it is based not on love but on hate. God has heard the cries of the persecuted and the prayers of his afflicted children in Venezuela. But he is allowing these things to happen as a test of their faith.
God has said it is not for America to intervene in Venezuela for he has other plans for America.

Aaaahhhh!!!! It's Pat Robertson. The lunatic pseudo Christian has infiltrated NS. Quick, we must burn it!

I mean lets not forget, Saddam was elected with 100% of the vote. China constantly elects a government as well..they just all happen to be members of the same party and know the same people..

Erm.. You do realise that Saddam rigged the elections, China rigs the elections (or does it even need to? Whens was the last time it had elections?), Wheres proof that the elections were rigged by Chavez.. is there even any MAJOR doubt over the elections being fair?

YES!, there are a LOT of complains about the elections being fair!

Have you been reading the thread?

one and a half weeks and it STILL hasn't been locked? Amazing...

one and a half weeks and it STILL hasn't been locked? Amazing...

People who can't allow democratic socialism to exist will never stop spreading lies on Chavez... such threads will continue again and again, saddly. Either they'll awaken old threads, or start new ones. But after all, who cares ? The Bolivarian Revolution is progressing, life is improving, democracy is improving, and Chavez' popular support is stronger with every day.

People who can't allow democratic socialism to exist will never stop spreading lies on Chavez... such threads will continue again and again, saddly. Either they'll awaken old threads, or start new ones. But after all, who cares ? The Bolivarian Revolution is progressing, life is improving, democracy is improving, and Chavez' popular support is stronger with every day.

Amazing...really amazing, you call it lies, you claim his popular suport and democracy are improving..all the meanwhile he changed the law so he can be essentially President for more than two terms, he has restricted free speech with the passage of the "Law on the Social Responsibility of Radio and Television", is critized by both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch(neither of them right wing or even moderate) and yet we're spreading lies? At what point will you realize Chavez isnt some sort of figure to aspire to? When they film him talking about how he helps fund FARC? In Columbia? Or his wishes to replace Pro-US South American governments with people he can easily manipulate? They already caught him doing the latter attempting to influence other nations elections. Lets be honest now you need to wake up and smell the roses.

http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Chavez/Jun2005ChavezEN.htm

People who can't allow democratic socialism to exist will never stop spreading lies on Chavez... such threads will continue again and again, saddly. Either they'll awaken old threads, or start new ones. But after all, who cares ? The Bolivarian Revolution is progressing, life is improving, democracy is improving, and Chavez' popular support is stronger with every day.

It is impressive to see how ideology can blind people's judgment.

I always discuss a lot about Chávez regime in every thread available because it is my nation and I care about it, different from you, than just join here to protect your views in politics. I always argue to the end because I see how much is the international opinion biased about what happens here in my countr, you being a perfect example.

all that you are talking about are lies, and you do not have a de facto knowledge to defend your positions.

I think that's all about it.

My opinion is that Chavez isn't a good person at all, he's the typical pro-communist dictator but in one thing he's good: he , Cuba and Bolivia are fighting (but not in an armed way) against U.S.A and his imperial old wish of conquer or at least control all of South and Central America (we have the example of Cuba, with Batista in command and Chile with Pinochet, just to name a few cases).
To conclude, yes Chavez is a bastard but all the politicians are. If they weren't they wouldn't be politicians, they would be Mather Theresa :p

Nope..no mention of soldiers disobeying an order which lead to the coup anywhere...maybe if you looked harder?..

In the CIA documents referrint to the existence of a coup lot? And how could they plot if they just objected to an order which had yet to be issued?


. You'll defend and be Chavez's apologist so much simply because you think he's a socialist when in reality his just another dictator who knows how to expliot the people...

Exploit the people into voting for him you mean? Well the West is run by dictators then so.

YES!, there are a LOT of complains about the elections being fair!

Have you been reading the thread?

Yes - all discredited by a range of international bodies. And what did I tell you about whinging?

Amazing...really amazing, you call it lies, you claim his popular suport and democracy are improving..all the meanwhile he changed the law so he can be essentially President for more than two terms, he has restricted free speech with the passage of the "Law on the Social Responsibility of Radio and Television", is critized by both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch(neither of them right wing or even moderate) and yet we're spreading lies? At what point will you realize Chavez isnt some sort of figure to aspire to? When they film him talking about how he helps fund FARC? In Columbia? Or his wishes to replace Pro-US South American governments with people he can easily manipulate? They already caught him doing the latter attempting to influence other nations elections. Lets be honest now you need to wake up and smell the roses.

http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Chavez/Jun2005ChavezEN.htm

Theres less criticism of Chavez than there is the Blair government in Britain. And since when have "Amnesty" not been moderates?

In the CIA documents referrint to the existence of a coup lot? And how could they plot if they just objected to an order which had yet to be issued?

http://www.proveo.org/11A.pdf

God, let me make this easier for you and connect the dots.

General 1: "Lets overthrow Chavez. I think he's a danger."
General 2: "No, lets give him a chance."
General 1: "Fine but I'm not happy."
Month goes by.
Chavez: "Oh no! The people are marching against me! There are shootings and stuff going on! Plan Avila! Plan Avila!"
General 1: "Plan Avila? You're out of your mind. No."
General 2: "Nope, not gonna do it."
General 3: "Maybe its time you left Caracas."
Chavez goes on staterun TV channels, along with an ex army officer and close Chavez associate who announces the Chavez has resigned from the Presidency.
Two days later Chavez is back in power, and the Supreme Court of Venezuela rules that there was no coup attempt, it was a power vaccum that was created by the resignation of Chavez, which led to a confusion in the military shortly after the rejection of Plan Avila. But hey what does the SCOV knows? You have all the answers right?



Exploit the people into voting for him you mean? Well the West is run by dictators then so.

Oh sure, organizing a milita of 1 million of his supporters isnt explioting...I'm sure they're gonna be there for local security. I'm sure Chavez wont use them to intimidate the opposition any more than Human Rights Watch says he does with the Guardia Nacional..yup...I'm sure his jailing of opposition leaders on trumped up charges(which has yet to been dispproved, infact it has been proven on multiple occassions, I shall of course provide a link if the obvious falls flat once again) I mean hey, at what point is he explioting the populace to maintain his power? He's already removed anyone he doesnt think is loyal from the state run oil company, replaced them with cronies in the top level management, which is now a misrun screw up of its former self. But I guess this is normal in your eyes?

God has spoken to me on the matter of the Chavez regime.

Thus saith the Lord, the only true God who sees all, knows all and above all:
Worry not about Chavez. His system will not long endure for it is based not on love but on hate. God has heard the cries of the persecuted and the prayers of his afflicted children in Venezuela. But he is allowing these things to happen as a test of their faith.
God has said it is not for America to intervene in Venezuela for he has other plans for America.
Take a double dose of smack this time, then?

http://www.proveo.org/11A.pdf

God, let me make this easier for you and connect the dots.

Two days later Chavez is back in power, and the Supreme Court of Venezuela rules that there was no coup attempt, it was a power vaccum that was created by the resignation of Chavez, which led to a confusion in the military shortly after the rejection of Plan Avila. But hey what does the SCOV knows? You have all the answers right??

No....but mine are far closer to the mark than yours. And your link there isn't to some independent documentation, but an opinion piece whose veracity is questionable.

The "Law of social responsibility" re the media, though I disagree with it, is far less restrictive than British legislation passed in the last year. And the prosectution of those receiving funds from the states should hardly be suprising. Treason is usually a crime, isn't it? Or do you think its ok to plot against a democratic regime if the US disapproves of same?

The amount of articles directed at Chavez at HRW, compared to the amount on the US page is significant and telling.


[
He's already removed anyone he doesnt think is loyal from the state run oil company, replaced them with cronies in the top level management, which is now a misrun screw up of its former self. But I guess this is normal in your eyes?

Thats called "house cleaning". The alternative is presumably to let it keep enriching a small clique as before. Hes getting rid of the old brigade and brining in a new crew.

And you haven't explained your "moderate" remark re Amnesty.