NationStates Jolt Archive

Foxes in my eyes are beautiful creatures. They are rare, sly, cunning, majestic and have some of the prettiest markings in the natural world. However, I think people become deluded by the problem of anthropomorphism. 'Townies' seem to think that foxes live in houses, wear knitted jumpers and waistcoats and say comical phrases such as 'Boom Boom!' But what is your opinion on banning fox hunting? I say that it should not be banned but promoted as I can easily remember my days on my farm standing by a heap of dead hens - all killed, none eaten.

Should it be banned or promoted?

Nothing wrong with it. As you say, 'townies' get obsessed by the thought of 'poor Mr Foxy Woxy'. Things die all the time. It's called nature.

Also, hunts generally don't kill foxes very often. The press love to create a hype about this though, as they do with everything else, because they want to sell more papers to trauma-addicted news junkies.

What kind of stupid people live in your towns? Mixing up real foxes (http://pantransit.reptiles.org/images/1998-03-10/close-fox-apr2.jpg) and Basil Brush (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mikejh/Basil%20Brush.jpg)?

Also, hunts generally don't kill foxes very often. The press love to create a hype about this though, as they do with everything else, because they want to sell more papers to trauma-addicted news junkies.
It's an interesting irony, because fox hunting as a method of pest control actually kills fewer foxes than other methods.

In other words:
8 hour hunt - kills one fox.
8 hours out shooting - kills numerous foxes.

What kind of stupid people live in your towns? Mixing up real foxes (http://pantransit.reptiles.org/images/1998-03-10/close-fox-apr2.jpg) and Basil Brush (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mikejh/Basil%20Brush.jpg)?

You got the links and the words the wrong way around.

It should be banned because it is cruel. Just because the animal death industry does other cruel things doesn't mean this cruelty should remain unabated.

Baby steps.

You got the links and the words the wrong way around.
:rolleyes:

It should be banned because it is cruel. Just because the animal death industry does other cruel things doesn't mean this cruelty should remain unabated.

Baby steps.

Why is it cruel?

It should be banned because it is cruel. Just because the animal death industry does other cruel things doesn't mean this cruelty should remain unabated.

Baby steps.

But what about the chickens? *sob* Won't somebody think of the chickens?

:rolleyes:
:p

But what about the chickens? *sob* Won't somebody think of the chickens?
Actually, in all seriousness, if you want to stop 'animal cruelty', chickens would be a much better place to start than fox hunting.

It's not very sporting is it? The hunters have horses, dogs, each other, guns. The fox has itself. It takes a real man to track and kill a fox barehanded.

I support fox hunting, as long as it leaves a viable breeding population for future generations of foxes to continue with high enough populations.

tearing foxes apart it a little different from protecting livestock.

By all means protect your livestock by shooting them.
But dressing up in the ridiculous red suits and going out deliberatly to rip apart an animal is just cruel.

How about if us ignorant smelly "townies" dressed up, went on our self propelled motered machines - like those tractors you sometimes see, except a little different. And chased your horses around and got our dogs to rip its neck off.
You'd be pretty pissed off, eh.

Shoot foxes, fine, its quick, and a relatively humane way of killing them.
Chasing foxes with dogs OR hawks is just plain stupid.

And don't go bringing up its a class war, thats for the Pro/anti communists thread.

but yes i agree, intensive farming is more cruel than killing foxes, the government can focus on banning that before banning hunting of wild animals.

Foxes in my eyes are beautiful creatures. They are rare, sly, cunning, majestic and have some of the prettiest markings in the natural world. However, I think people become deluded by the problem of anthropomorphism. 'Townies' seem to think that foxes live in houses, wear knitted jumpers and waistcoats and say comical phrases such as 'Boom Boom!' But what is your opinion on banning fox hunting? I say that it should not be banned but promoted as I can easily remember my days on my farm standing by a heap of dead hens - all killed, none eaten.

Should it be banned or promoted?

I'm not fond of the hunting of any animal unless you plan to eat it, or the population is booming due to lack of natural predators (generally a result of human interference).

So I'd possibly support a ban on fox hunting. Though I don't see much wrong with shooting a fox if you catch it attacking your property (eg. Chickens).

I'm off now, so before anyone brings these points up, here you are:

Who kills the foxes? The hounds do.

Who keeps the hounds alive? The farmer, who uses the money made by lending the dogs to keep them alive.

What other ways are there to kill the foxes? Shooting, posioning, gasing...

What happens when a hound gets a fox? Does it get torn limb from limb while still alive? Nope, it's a quick bit on the next and thats it.

The hunts(wo)men don't eat the foxes, but the hounds mostly do.

Think of the sheep and chickens killed! Think of the Cows crippled!

Hope that cleared some stuff up.

And remember people: keep drag racing, it's legal, and it makes sure that we don't go down without a fight.

But what about the chickens? *sob* Won't somebody think of the chickens?

"Just because the animal death industry does other cruel things doesn't mean this cruelty should remain unabated."

Why is it cruel?

If you need to ask why it's cruel to have the hounds rip the foxes to shreds at the behest of humans, then I doubt you'll ever get why it is.

What happens when a hound gets a fox? Does it get torn limb from limb while still alive? Nope, it's a quick bit on the next and thats it.

The hunts(wo)men don't eat the foxes, but the hounds mostly do.

You actually put these two points together? So the fox only gets a bite on the neck(?) and that's it. Oh but it gets eaten too.

By all means protect your livestock by shooting them.
But dressing up in the ridiculous red suits and going out deliberatly to rip apart an animal is just cruel.

You don't have to go out deliberatly. If the dogs were hungry, and they got out, they wouldn't need a man in a red suit blow a horn to tell them what to do. It's natural, and the hounds get more out of it than we do.

How about if us ignorant smelly "townies" dressed up, went on our self propelled motered machines - like those tractors you sometimes see, except a little different. And chased your horses around and got our dogs to rip its neck off.
You'd be pretty pissed off, eh.

The horses would out run the tractors, and I doubt you'd be able to get the hounds to take on a fully grown horse, nevermind rip its neck off :p

Shoot foxes, fine, its quick, and a relatively humane way of killing them.

But then again, you'd take much longer trying to hit the thing, and if you buggered it up, then well, daddy foxy woxy just died a painful death.

Chasing foxes with dogs OR hawks is just plain stupid.

Oh really? Why? Arn't those animals preditors natually.

You actually put these two points together? So the fox only gets a bite on the neck(?) and that's it. Oh but it gets eaten too.

After it's death. When it can't feel pain.

If you need to ask why it's cruel to have the hounds rip the foxes to shreds at the behest of humans, then I doubt you'll ever get why it is.

Don't people go shooting for fun. Or eating animals for pleasure?

Hawks eat mice and small rodents, they are trained to eat foxes just like dogs are, its not natural.

So, why do they catch onto the idea then?

I'll sort the quad post tomorrow, sorry about it, i forgot about that little advisement.

Hawks eat mice and small rodents, they are trained to eat foxes just like dogs are, its not natural.

So, why do they catch onto the idea then?


Because hawks are used to kill birds and so the next hunting step after banning four legs, is to use the winged things.

if you mean why do hawks attack the foxes, its because they have been trained.

After it's death. When it can't feel pain.
You assume. One quick bite to the neck does not result in instant death.
You don't have to go out deliberatly. If the dogs were hungry, and they got out, they wouldn't need a man in a red suit blow a horn to tell them what to do. It's natural, and the hounds get more out of it than we do.
So why do you go out? To watch a fox being killed and eaten?
The horses would out run the tractors, and I doubt you'd be able to get the hounds to take on a fully grown horse, nevermind rip its neck off :pHorse gets tired, tractor hits it, dog eats it.
But then again, you'd take much longer trying to hit the thing, and if you buggered it up, then well, daddy foxy woxy just died a painful deathYes, cos being eaten is so much less painful. At least shooting has a chance of instantly killing the fox.
Oh really? Why? Arn't those animals preditors natually.Hawks do not naturally hunt foxes.

Hawks eat mice and small rodents, they are trained to eat foxes just like dogs are, its not natural.
Actually if dogs were not domesticated they might very well eat a fox, if they managed to catch one. Though foxes and dogs would be fairly evenly matched in nature, so it would vary from situation to situation who gets eaten.

Don't people go shooting for fun. Or eating animals for pleasure?

I see neither as a valid excuse.

So, why do they catch onto the idea then?

I'll sort the quad post tomorrow, sorry about it, i forgot about that little advisement.
Dogs are trained to be seeing eyes for the blind. They do not 'catch onto' this because they naturally want to lead blind people around. Similarly hawks do not naturally hunt foxes, but they can be trained to.

I've hunted fox before, but don't not in the way that is tradtional in England.

I've taken fox both on the stalk and by calling. Both require a lot of skill, and require you to have a lot of respect for your prey.

I only use dogs for hunting upland birds. I just can't seem to understand the appeal of tradtional english fox hunting.

I say that it should not be banned but promoted as I can easily remember my days on my farm standing by a heap of dead hens - all killed, none eaten.


Foxes are efficient predators. They kill all the hens and then carry them one at a time to a place where they can be stored to be eaten later. Often they will be disturbed and it will appear that they are just mindless killers, but they are not.

To my mind, killing animals like cows and pigs that are bred specifically for that purpose is ok, as they would not be alive at all if we didnt breed them to eat. With regard to wild animals, we should only hunt them if the environment necessitates it, like if there is no other food, or if we need to wear their skins to stay alive. If a population needs to be controlled, we should do it in the most humane way.

Fox hunting is none of these things. It is a recreational activity. If people want to kill for fun tehn they should kill eachother. Its not murder, they probably enjoy the thrill of the chase. Also, during the foot and mouth crisis when hunting was suspended, fox numbers fell slightly and then remained stable. We dont breed them, we dont eat them, we dont need to wear them and we dont have to control their numbers. there is absolutely no justification for killing them.

Foxes are efficient predators. They kill all the hens and then carry them one at a time to a place where they can be stored to be eaten later. Often they will be disturbed and it will appear that they are just mindless killers, but they are not.


If foxes were unhindered, they'd kill ALL the chickens in the coop. Also, could you give us evidence of that last statement?

To my mind, killing animals like cows and pigs that are bred specifically for that purpose is ok, as they would not be alive at all if we didnt breed them to eat. With regard to wild animals, we should only hunt them if the environment necessitates it, like if there is no other food, or if we need to wear their skins to stay alive. If a population needs to be controlled, we should do it in the most humane way.

So why isn't getting some preditors to kill the foxes not humane? It's not only humane, it's natural

Fox hunting is none of these things. It is a recreational activity. If people want to kill for fun tehn they should kill eachother. Its not murder, they probably enjoy the thrill of the chase. Also, during the foot and mouth crisis when hunting was suspended, fox numbers fell slightly and then remained stable. We dont breed them, we dont eat them, we dont need to wear them and we dont have to control their numbers. there is absolutely no justification for killing them.

But who kills the foxes? Young Jane Bloggs who is suddenly a evil person now that she has a redcoat on? The idiot Sabutors who lead the dogs off the trail? No, the dogs do. People may have fun, but that's nothing to be compaired to what the dogs get out of it. All a hunts(wo)man is doing is making sure the dogs don't lose themselfs.

What your saying is that, if we didn't enjoy it, we hated it, and we did the exact same thing, it would be alright?

[QUOTE=Wakenfield]If foxes were unhindered, they'd kill ALL the chickens in the coop. Also, could you give us evidence of that last statement?



So why isn't getting some preditors to kill the foxes not humane? It's not only humane, it's natural



QUOTE]
The dog part isn't humane, nor is it technicly natural. Dogs are domestic animals BRED by people for many purposes. Many breeds are "naturally" aggressive against certain animals because we've BRED them. Need an example of a dog that is natural? Look at the wolf. Nothing more than an undomesticated dog, a "proto-dog". It rarely kills foxes and when it does, it's usually out of hunger, disease(like rabies), or just a case of catching foxy stealing its food. It's inhumane and unnatural.

Also. if you start raising chickens where foxies roam, don't complain about the foxies. They were there first and you know it. Maybe some fencing anf fence maintainence would solve the problem. Some long term solution would be better than sicking rover of foxies(sometimes slow, pregnant mommy foxes who try in vain to not get killed) or wasting money on ammo.

killing for fun isn't great. It's sick. It's one of the factors that contribute to our modern problem of mass extinction. Usually, MEs happen because of Mr. climatechange or Mrs. Spacerock. Now, it's Mr. Dumbass overusing the environment and going to the next fertile place until nothing is left. If you have to kill to have fun, then come over here before your fun snowballs into something illegal, something punishable by death here in the US.

It should be banned because it is cruel. Just because the animal death industry does other cruel things doesn't mean this cruelty should remain unabated.

Baby steps.
Why is it cruel?

And since it's animals we're talking about, why does it matter?

How do you justify granting sub-human animals legal protections that trump the rights of human beings?

Why is it cruel?

And since it's animals we're talking about, why does it matter?

How do you justify granting sub-human animals legal protections that trump the rights of human beings?
Because many serial killers got their start with their sick fun. If you like to harm creatures, excluding animals unnaturally bred for human consumption, then what's stopping you from slowly making your way up to murdering people? What good comes from animal abuse? nothing. What bad could possibly come from it? The next Jack the Ripper. It has happened before. It can happen again.

Because many serial killers got their start with their sick fun. If you like to harm creatures, excluding animals unnaturally bred for human consumption, then what's stopping you from slowly making your way up to murdering people? What good comes from animal abuse? nothing. What bad could possibly come from it? The next Jack the Ripper. It has happened before. It can happen again.

Erm, so you're saying that fox hunters have a tendency to commit homicide because fox hunting is like the gateway drug of violence?

It's not very sporting is it? The hunters have horses, dogs, each other, guns. The fox has itself. It takes a real man to track and kill a fox barehanded.

Well, they use guns now. Damn statute!

tearing foxes apart it a little different from protecting livestock.

By all means protect your livestock by shooting them.
But dressing up in the ridiculous red suits and going out deliberatly to rip apart an animal is just cruel.

How about if us ignorant smelly "townies" dressed up, went on our self propelled motered machines - like those tractors you sometimes see, except a little different. And chased your horses around and got our dogs to rip its neck off.
You'd be pretty pissed off, eh.

Shoot foxes, fine, its quick, and a relatively humane way of killing them.
Chasing foxes with dogs OR hawks is just plain stupid.

And don't go bringing up its a class war, thats for the Pro/anti communists thread.

but yes i agree, intensive farming is more cruel than killing foxes, the government can focus on banning that before banning hunting of wild animals.

The fox is not torn apart. I know this from personal experience when the Hunt used our bottom paddock on occasion.

By the way, the sorry state of the rural economy is due in a large part to the severe under-investment from Government and business, who's funds are enticed away by the urban environment.

According to the Burns Inquiry, traditional fox hunting in England was the most humane method of killing available. You have no point.

By the way, you are the only person who has mentioned class.

If you need to ask why it's cruel to have the hounds rip the foxes to shreds at the behest of humans, then I doubt you'll ever get why it is.

Again, the fox is not ripped to shreds.

I've hunted fox before, but don't not in the way that is tradtional in England.

I've taken fox both on the stalk and by calling. Both require a lot of skill, and require you to have a lot of respect for your prey.

I only use dogs for hunting upland birds. I just can't seem to understand the appeal of tradtional english fox hunting.

It used to be so exciting! I mostly watched from the Staircase Hall because there was a good view as I'm quite badly affected by hayfever and colds and whatnot at times.

...we should do it in the most humane way.

Fox hunting is none of these things...

Lord Burns's inquiry stated that fox hunting was the most natural and humane method of controlling the fox population and this is backed up by the Royal College of Vetinary Surgeons.

Because many serial killers got their start with their sick fun. If you like to harm creatures, excluding animals unnaturally bred for human consumption, then what's stopping you from slowly making your way up to murdering people? What good comes from animal abuse? nothing. What bad could possibly come from it? The next Jack the Ripper. It has happened before. It can happen again.

The next Jack the Ripper? Surely it would be the first? I was under the impression that any connections between the murders were extremely terse, such as they all happened on the planet Earth.

Nothing wrong with it. As you say, 'townies' get obsessed by the thought of 'poor Mr Foxy Woxy'. Things die all the time. It's called nature.


I wish 'country folk' would stay out of our towns. They don't understand our big city ways and they smell of cow shit.

I wish 'country folk' would stay out of our towns. They don't understand our big city ways and they smell of cow shit.

Have no fears. We'll just stop supplying you with food and then we won't be bothered by you because your system will collapse. It is rather like the dependence that EMDCs have on ELDCs.

If foxes were unhindered, they'd kill ALL the chickens in the coop. Also, could you give us evidence of that last statement?

Well, *you* put the hens there in the first place.

So why isn't getting some preditors to kill the foxes not humane? It's not only humane, it's natural.

So reintroduce wolves to the wild.

Have no fears. We'll just stop supplying you with food and then we won't be bothered by you because your system will collapse. It is rather like the dependence that EMDCs have on ELDCs.

That's ok, we'll stop supplying you with bullets.
And electricity. And healthcare.

That's ok, we'll stop supplying you with bullets.
And electricity. And healthcare.

And tractors. Let's take their tractors away and make them go back to riding pigs.

It takes sick person to enjoy killing things. Hunting should not be a pleasure sport. It should only be done for survival or population control.

As for the murderer thing, I may have exagerated, but my point still stands. Sure, a fox hunter today might not turn on his family. But who knows about the next ten, fifteen years? There are animal-cruelty laws for reasons, and morality only consists of a few of them.

As for the murderer thing, I may have exagerated, but my point still stands. Sure, a fox hunter today might not turn on his family. But who knows about the next ten, fifteen years? There are animal-cruelty laws for reasons, and morality only consists of a few of them.

No, your point doesn't stand. You aren't linking fox hunting to homicide successfully. Anyone can say "who knows about the next 10 years?" regarding some group that one supposes will commit evil crimes. Like illegal immigrants. Sure, they haven't overthrown the US government and enforced genocide on white people now... but who knows, right? ;)

No, your point doesn't stand. You aren't linking fox hunting to homicide successfully. Anyone can say "who knows about the next 10 years?" regarding some group that one supposes will commit evil crimes. Like illegal immigrants. Sure, they haven't overthrown the US government and enforced genocide on white people now... but who knows, right? ;)
Even though some illegals are in fact violent criminals, but there's a difference between a group of people who come here to escape the hellholes they used to call home, sometimes blaming the country they're illegally entering for their hard life, and someone who kills things for pleasure.

"Hey Pa. I killed a bunch of foxes today. Now we won't have to bother fixing our coups."
"That's right, son. Killing animals with teh intelligence of a two year old is perfectly fine. Why don't you kill some more. Isn't killing things fun?"

See the difference?