NationStates Jolt Archive

First, keep in mind that I am an atheist and have never had much of anything to do with any religion.

So, I have two questions for NS Christians.
1) Is God omnipresent?
2) Is God Perfect?

If the answer to those two questions is true, then logically, all of existence is perfect. Also, if, as I have often heard said, a human is only perfect if he has accepted Jesus Christ. However, not everyone has in fact accepted Christ.

This (obviously) poses some problems for Christianity. I dont know the answers to these questions, though, so help me out here.

First, keep in mind that I am an atheist and have never had much of anything to do with any religion.

So, I have two questions for NS Christians.
1) Is God omnipresent?
2) Is God Perfect?

If the answer to those two questions is true, then logically, all of existence is perfect. Also, if, as I have often heard said, a human is only perfect if he has accepted Jesus Christ. However, not everyone has in fact accepted Christ.

This (obviously) poses some problems for Christianity. I dont know the answers to these questions, though, so help me out here.
You are making a leap of logic that is incorrect.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.
God is perfect.

God does not have to create perfection. Free will, almost by definition, negates perfection.
To claim God must create perfection (i.e. all his creations are perfect) assumes that God is incapable of choice, that He is some sort of automoton.

A human can become so skilled in something as to achieve near perfection in their performance. Yet that human can chose to, for whatever reason, flub it at will.

I am a Christian, and please don't assume that I have all of the answers or that I represent every Christian with my opinions. Personally, I believe that God is omnipresent in that he is "aware" of all of his creation. It sort of goes along with knowing everything and being generally...God. I don't think he's in everything in the literal sense, but that he's around and available at all times.

God is perfection. God is eternity. But that doesn't mean everything he creates is perfect. As that one e-mail chain letter puts it, evil is the absence of God just as darkness is the absence of light. "Evil" keeps everything from being perfect, whether it manifests as temptation via Satan or human's free will, which includes the choice to pick what God doesn't want us to do.

The argument is also flawed in that assuming that if God is everywhere, that everything must be perfect-- but is that not akin to saying that if you are in the presense of one who has achieved perfection, in, say, the Martial Arts, that you must also be a perfect Martial Artist?

You are making a leap of logic that is incorrect.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.
God is perfect.

God does not have to create perfection. Free will, almost by definition, negates perfection.
To claim God must create perfection (i.e. all his creations are perfect) assumes that God is incapable of choice, that He is some sort of automoton.

A human can become so skilled in something as to achieve near perfection in their performance. Yet that human can chose to, for whatever reason, flub it at will.

Its not that God must create perfection. It is just that, being present in everything means that everything must then have the perfection of God. At least, to me it does. Like I said, maybe Christians see it differently.

The argument is also flawed in that assuming that if God is everywhere, that everything must be perfect-- but is that not akin to saying that if you are in the presense of one who has achieved perfection, in, say, the Martial Arts, that you must also be a perfect Martial Artist?

No, its more akin to saying that if the Martial Arts master was present in every part of my being, I would be a perfect martial artist.

The argument is also flawed in that assuming that if God is everywhere, that everything must be perfect-- but is that not akin to saying that if you are in the presense of one who has achieved perfection, in, say, the Martial Arts, that you must also be a perfect Martial Artist?
There is, though, a difference in a being that is perfect in all ways, and a being who just achieves perfection in one facet of life. God is not human, by any way of thinking. You are equiparating God with a human. The basic assumption is that He (she/it/whatever) is superior. Think more of Him as the Sun and you as a flower absorbing His energy.

Its not that God must create perfection. It is just that, being present in everything means that everything must then have the perfection of God. At least, to me it does. Like I said, maybe Christians see it differently.

I guess I just don't see why that would have to be the case. Being in something isn't the same as being that thing.

I guess I just don't see why that would have to be the case. Being in something isn't the same as being that thing.

I dunno, to me, it seems that something that is in something else at least partially makes that other thing up. Like...I have ceels in my body, and I am made up of cells. I have God in me, therefore I am god. God has Perfection in him, therefore I have Perfection in me.

But it's not like God is physically in anything. I don't see why being spiritually present in a physical object should change the physical object's attributes.

But it's not like God is physically in anything. I don't see why being spiritually present in a physical object should change the physical object's attributes.

I apologize if you interpreted my statements about perfection as talking about physical perfection. I was, in fact, talking about spiritual perfection-indeed, perfection of the soul. And, God being the spiritual being that he is, should also be in people's souls, as a part of his omnipresence, should he not? And therefore, I have, and you have, indeed every human has, within their sould, God's perfection.

I dunno, I just don't see the necessity for God's attributes to be adopted by everything he inhabits. When people say God is "in" them, they mean he is present at the same spiritual coordinates, not that he is literally an ingredient in their soul. I think the problem here is simply a linguistic limitation, not a contradictory set of beliefs.

I dunno, I just don't see the necessity for God's attributes to be adopted by everything he inhabits. When people say God is "in" them, they mean he is present at the same spiritual coordinates, not that he is literally an ingredient in their soul. I think the problem here is simply a linguistic limitation, not a contradictory set of beliefs.

But nevertheless, God exists at the exact same "spiritual coordinates" as your soul, and yet...has nothing to do with it? No interaction with it? Seems a bit odd to me. For instance, say a big rock exists at precisely the same space-time coordinates as...your head. It means that your head and the rock are one and the same. Or you've got a rock in your head. My point is, it interacts.

Although perhaps the analogy would be better if you consider a proton, originally not part of any atom, occupying the same space-time coordinates as the nucleus of an atom of say...helium. Suddenly, with tat extra proton, the atom is now a Lithium ion. It has changed the nature of the atom itself.

I would think the same thing would happen with God and your soul.

Oh, I think God certainly interacts with everything. I just don't think anything inherits perfection through that interaction.

Oh, I think God certainly interacts with everything. I just don't think anything inherits perfection through that interaction.

Ah. I still maintain that as God is a part of everything, everything has many of the aspects of God.

I guess coming from a Christian perspective, the way I look at is that God is in everything and clearly everything isn't perfect, so obviously things don't take on attributes of God. But that isn't going to be satisfactory to everybody, for obvious reasons.

I guess coming from a Christian perspective, the way I look at is that God is in everything and clearly everything isn't perfect, so obviously things don't take on attributes of God. But that isn't going to be satisfactory to everybody, for obvious reasons.

Yeah, alright, I can see your point, but in that case...why not? I mean, after all...God is omnipotent, correct?

Are you asking why, if God is omnipotent, He does not cause everything to be perfect?

First, keep in mind that I am an atheist and have never had much of anything to do with any religion.

So, I have two questions for NS Christians.
1) Is God omnipresent?
2) Is God Perfect?

If the answer to those two questions is true, then logically, all of existence is perfect. Also, if, as I have often heard said, a human is only perfect if he has accepted Jesus Christ. However, not everyone has in fact accepted Christ.

This (obviously) poses some problems for Christianity. I dont know the answers to these questions, though, so help me out here.
First of all stop thinking so hard, you might have a seizure.

You either set yourself a path or take the one god has set you.
It isn't up to anyone to think if they are doing it right just do it right.

Are you asking why, if God is omnipotent, He does not cause everything to be perfect?

Yes, I am indeed.

Tough call. Perhaps the allowance of factors like entropy and free is somehow "better" than a universe in which everything operates perfectly? Like, perhaps only in the face of less-good or imperfect things can anything be considered to be good? I don't know, I'm probably not going to fully understand it during this lifetime.

Tough call. Perhaps the allowance of factors like entropy and free is somehow "better" than a universe in which everything operates perfectly? Like, perhaps only in the face of less-good or imperfect things can anything be considered to be good? I don't know, I'm probably not going to fully understand it during this lifetime.

Yeah, I think you may be right there. At least, I cannot think of any better reason. But why does God feel the need to have people appreciate his "good" at all?

I don't know that that's what He's going for. Maybe it's objectively better for people to be able to choose good over bad than for them to just be programmed to do good.

I apologize if you interpreted my statements about perfection as talking about physical perfection. I was, in fact, talking about spiritual perfection-indeed, perfection of the soul. And, God being the spiritual being that he is, should also be in people's souls, as a part of his omnipresence, should he not? And therefore, I have, and you have, indeed every human has, within their sould, God's perfection.

Though it is spiritual perfection as well, i think it cloud also be physical perfection. Not to our world of sin of course but to him we already are of physical perfection when he created us. He created us in his image so that everything he creates is the upmost picture of beauty. Though what you said about the soul is true to. But though every human had God's perfection in the soul God is not in everyone's soul. Just those who except him

But nevertheless, God exists at the exact same "spiritual coordinates" as your soul, and yet...has nothing to do with it? No interaction with it? Seems a bit odd to me. For instance, say a big rock exists at precisely the same space-time coordinates as...your head. It means that your head and the rock are one and the same. Or you've got a rock in your head. My point is, it interacts.

Although perhaps the analogy would be better if you consider a proton, originally not part of any atom, occupying the same space-time coordinates as the nucleus of an atom of say...helium. Suddenly, with tat extra proton, the atom is now a Lithium ion. It has changed the nature of the atom itself.

I would think the same thing would happen with God and your soul.

ok, how about two people engaged in the act of copulation? is one member of the party not by definition within the other person to some extent? this is to assume that all people who have sexual intercourse must be the same being entirely

and 'you would think' is not reasonable, you still jump in saying that God's hand must result in perfection, surely there is some small measure of God that was forged into our souls at Creation ("in His image") yet we are also sinners and fallen, and since perfection and imperfection are mutually exclusive we cannot be both, since God created us with the capacity for sin, and not the capacity for perfection (on a spiritual basis, "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" "For there are none righteous, no not one") we cannot be perfect, though some of God's being, and Glory was forged into us, that manifested itself in our ability to choose Him, and sadly, also our ability to reject Him.

Yeah, alright, I can see your point, but in that case...why not? I mean, after all...God is omnipotent, correct?

Yes he is, but thats where the free will comes in. In the graden we were all perfect but because of the first sin we have free will and so even though God is omnipotent he choses restraint and lets us use free will.

Though it is spiritual perfection as well, i think it cloud also be physical perfection. Not to our world of sin of course but to him we already are of physical perfection when he created us. He created us in his image so that everything he creates is the upmost picture of beauty. Though what you said about the soul is true to. But though every human had God's perfection in the soul God is not in everyone's soul. Just those who except him

But the fact that they don't have God within them doesn't matter. They are still perfect, correct?

And what, precisely, does having God within you entail? Just out of curiosity.

Tough call. Perhaps the allowance of factors like entropy and free is somehow "better" than a universe in which everything operates perfectly? Like, perhaps only in the face of less-good or imperfect things can anything be considered to be good? I don't know, I'm probably not going to fully understand it during this lifetime.

the idea is that God wanted some creature to worship Him, and give Him glory without forcing it. God created angels, who have no choice in the matter, they are 'hollow' in their servitude, there is no real option

He created us with the capacity for imperfection so that we could just as freely reject Him as choose Him, though He has shown Himself throughout history, and made His persence clear (but not 'proven' so as to preserve choice, while making belief in Him reasonable enough to not be dismissed out of hand)

Does the Bible actually say that God simultaneously exists everywhere at once?

I'm an atheist, but I make a point of never using any of the omni-whatevers to try and attack God, because as far as I know they are not Biblically accurate, just assumed to be true by contemporary Christians and critics of Christianity.

In fact, many Bible passages imply that God is NOT omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. This kind of God is far more believable, and I think that a finite-in-some-respects but still very powerful God may have been more what the inventors of Christianity were aiming for (or be what God actually is, if indeed he does exist).

Yes he is, but thats where the free will comes in. In the graden we were all perfect but because of the first sin we have free will and so even though God is omnipotent he choses restraint and lets us use free will.

But okay, on the subject of free will... God is omniscient, and therefore knows what you will do and whether you will go to heaven or hell before you are born. I don't call that "free will." Your actions are predetermined. So basically, what you do in life doesn't matter, because it's already known that you will do those things, and you are already destined to go to Heaven or Hell.

ok, how about two people engaged in the act of copulation? is one member of the party not by definition within the other person to some extent? this is to assume that all people who have sexual intercourse must be the same being entirely

and 'you would think' is not reasonable, you still jump in saying that God's hand must result in perfection, surely there is some small measure of God that was forged into our souls at Creation ("in His image") yet we are also sinners and fallen, and since perfection and imperfection are mutually exclusive we cannot be both, since God created us with the capacity for sin, and not the capacity for perfection (on a spiritual basis, "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" "For there are none righteous, no not one") we cannot be perfect, though some of God's being, and Glory was forged into us, that manifested itself in our ability to choose Him, and sadly, also our ability to reject Him.

I'm not saying anything about part of God being forged into our souls at Crweation. I'm saying that he is present within us due to omnipresence.

Does the Bible actually say that God simultaneously exists everywhere at once?

I'm an atheist, but I make a point of never using any of the omni-whatevers to try and attack God, because as far as I know they are not Biblically accurate, just assumed to be true by contemporary Christians and critics of Christianity.

In fact, many Bible passages imply that God is NOT omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. This kind of God is far more believable, and I think that a finite-in-some-respects but still very powerful God may have been more what the inventors of Christianity were aiming for (or be what God actually is, if indeed he does exist).

not really the scope of this forum, although there is some evidence for your argument, looking at it logically, God must transcend both time and space, at which point He is infinite to any human way of understanding (as all of our knowledge is inextricably tied to space, and time)

It is True that God is perfect..but we are not.
By accepting Christ you are are not "perfect"...by accpeting him you are granted eternal life.

I made pretty strong argument to a friend once that it is possible for God to be both omniscient and ignorant of certain facts about the future. But, there ARE Christians who would say that you are correct in your assessment that we do not have free will and that our fates are predetermined.

I'm not saying anything about part of God being forged into our souls at Crweation. I'm saying that he is present within us due to omnipresence.

His Omnipresence is not actually being literally everywhere, it is that He exists outside of space, and thence completely removed from physical restrictions (such as being in only one place at one time) God lacks a specified physical existence, and thus is everywhere and no where, the reason He can be 'everywhere' yet still unpalpable

Does the Bible actually say that God simultaneously exists everywhere at once?

I'm an atheist, but I make a point of never using any of the omni-whatevers to try and attack God, because as far as I know they are not Biblically accurate, just assumed to be true by contemporary Christians and critics of Christianity.

In fact, many Bible passages imply that God is NOT omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. This kind of God is far more believable, and I think that a finite-in-some-respects but still very powerful God may have been more what the inventors of Christianity were aiming for (or be what God actually is, if indeed he does exist).

Oh, I don't think the Bible says he is omnipresent. I'm not sure it is part of the official doctrine of any Christian church. It is just assumed to be true. And I am challenging that assumption, nothing else.

And I agree with you that a finite God is much more believable.

His Omnipresence is not actually being literally everywhere, it is that He exists outside of space, and thence completely removed from physical restrictions (such as being in only one place at one time) God lacks a specified physical existence, and thus is everywhere and no where, the reason He can be 'everywhere' yet still unpalpable

I would argue that you need to come up with a better word, then. Because omnipresence is, quite literally, "present everywhere simultaneously." So, if He is Omnipresent, he is indeed everywhere at once. Quite literally.

I made pretty strong argument to a friend once that it is possible for God to be both omniscient and ignorant of certain facts about the future.

Really? How? That doesn't really make sense to me. Explain it to me, please?

But, there ARE Christians who would say that you are correct in your assessment that we do not have free will and that our fates are predetermined.

Yay Calvinists!

I would argue that you need to come up with a better word, then. Because omnipresence is, quite literally, "present everywhere simultaneously." So, if He is Omnipresent, he is indeed everywhere at once. Quite literally.

Omnipresence does not have to use that definition. There are a number of meanings for the word. I can post them if you wish.

Yeah, alright, I can see your point, but in that case...why not? I mean, after all...God is omnipotent, correct?

Speaking hypothetically, one could use the example of the question as to whether God can create a rock which He cannot lift. Now then, if He can then He is omnipotent because He can create it, but He is not omnipotent because He cannot lift it.

However, if God cannot create such a rock, He is not omnipotent. And yet, as He can lift any rock, He is omnipotent.

Either way, God's omnipotence defeats God's omnipotence, meaning that God has to be omnipotent in order to defeat Himself, if you follow me. So, correct.

The original argument was very long-winded and complex, but it boils down to this:

God is omnipotent and omniscient, but there are clearly some laws of logic and reality to which He must adhere...a popular example is that it is logically impossible for God to create a rock so big that He can't lift it. Now, it's debatable whether this is the result an immutable law of reality or just one that God chose to work into the universe (i.e., He could have created a universe in which it WOULD be possible to create a rock so big that He couldn't lift it), but that's beside the point here. The point is, the fact that God can't do certain things doesn't limit His omnipotence in any meaningful way, because He can still do anything that can possibly be done. Anything that you can logically imagine being done, God, by definition, can do.

It makes sense that God's knowledge would work the same way: He must know anything that can be known. What is an example of something God couldn't know? Well, He can't know the name of a non-existent person; He can't know the physical attributes of a fictional literary character; He can't know the color of a non-existent object, etc. This all seems really obvious: clearly, God can't have knowledge about a non-existent state of affairs, because there is no possible knowledge to be had. No one would argue that because God doesn't know how many hairs are on Sherlock Holmes' head, He can't be omnipotent.

I would argue that the future, too, is a non-existent state of affairs. God can obviously have advance knowledge of determinate events, but what about random events and products of free will? God can know every possible action I could make at a certain point in time; He has complete knowledge of every possible consequence of every choice I could make, and of every choice I could be faced with in the future as a result of that choice. Being omnipotent, God must know every single possible iteration of reality that could ever occur at every single point in the future. However, if I truly have free will, then it is up to me (in part) to decide which of those many iterations will occur. Free will is nothing more than the ability to perform actions that God can not predict. Actions that I will perform in the future have no meaningful existence until they come about, so what is there to know about them? If we have free will, then God's inability to know some aspects of the future are merely logical consequences of God's choice to create a universe that is not entirely determinate, and He is no more limited by this than He is limited by his inability to describe Tom Sawyer's wardrobe.

I think that made a lot more sense the first time I explained it, but do you at least kind of get what I'm saying?

Does the Bible actually say that God simultaneously exists everywhere at once?

I'm an atheist, but I make a point of never using any of the omni-whatevers to try and attack God, because as far as I know they are not Biblically accurate, just assumed to be true by contemporary Christians and critics of Christianity.

In fact, many Bible passages imply that God is NOT omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. This kind of God is far more believable, and I think that a finite-in-some-respects but still very powerful God may have been more what the inventors of Christianity were aiming for (or be what God actually is, if indeed he does exist).

Are you sure that there is such a word as this? It most certainly isn't in my dictionary. Is it in yours? Different editions, you know.

God is omnipotent and omniscient, but there are clearly some laws of logic and reality to which He must adhere...a popular example is that it is logically impossible for God to create a rock so big that He can't lift it. Now, it's debatable whether this is the result an immutable law of reality or just one that God chose to work into the universe (i.e., He could have created a universe in which it WOULD be possible to create a rock so big that He couldn't lift it), but that's beside the point here. The point is, the fact that God can't do certain things doesn't limit His omnipotence in any meaningful way, because He can still do anything that can possibly be done. Anything that you can logically imagine being done, God, by definition, can do.


Another such example is the question: can God create a 5 sided square?

Obviously, He cannot, but He is still omnipotent. The limitation is one of language, not His power, as a square by definition must have four sides.

Did God create time? If He did, then He exists outside of it, yes?

If there were no space-time continium thing, then I could be everywhere at once, right? I would be here in my seat. And in China. Why? Because I went there in the future. But, there is no future. So I'm there now.

That's why God is omnipresent. He exists outside of time.

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]If the answer to those two questions is true, then logically, all of existence is perfect. Also, if, as I have often heard said, a human is only perfect if he has accepted Jesus Christ. However, not everyone has in fact accepted Christ.QUOTE]

This is not a Christian belief. I will be made perfect into the likeness of Christ, but I am not perfect simply because I confess Him to be my Lord and Savior. Any perfection is a result of the work of God, not the works of Man.

But nevertheless, God exists at the exact same "spiritual coordinates" as your soul, and yet...has nothing to do with it? No interaction with it? Seems a bit odd to me. For instance, say a big rock exists at precisely the same space-time coordinates as...your head. It means that your head and the rock are one and the same. Or you've got a rock in your head. My point is, it interacts.

Although perhaps the analogy would be better if you consider a proton, originally not part of any atom, occupying the same space-time coordinates as the nucleus of an atom of say...helium. Suddenly, with tat extra proton, the atom is now a Lithium ion. It has changed the nature of the atom itself.

I would think the same thing would happen with God and your soul.

This sounds like a Calvinist talking, though I doubt you are.

You are forgetting that there is a 5th (or 6th, 7th,...) dimension. Some have described it that way, though I dislike that explanation. Our spirits/souls are not in the same sphere as our bodies. If you looked at the sphere in which they do exist, you may see that they are different entities, though in the same place. The spiritual bleeds into the physical at times. But this does not mean that they are the same.

And what if more protons = closer to perfection. The God atom has an infinite number of protons. And He changed the nature of your atom to have more (3?) than it used to: 1. Does that mean you are in any way close to perfection, though you are closer than you were.

The amount of sense that makes is mind-blowingly negligible.

the idea is that God wanted some creature to worship Him, and give Him glory without forcing it. God created angels, who have no choice in the matter, they are 'hollow' in their servitude, there is no real option

He created us with the capacity for imperfection so that we could just as freely reject Him as choose Him, though He has shown Himself throughout history, and made His persence clear (but not 'proven' so as to preserve choice, while making belief in Him reasonable enough to not be dismissed out of hand)

If the angels are hollow in their servitude, how were some able to rebel? Where did the demons come from? Satan/Devil/Lucifer?

Yay Calvinists!

You don't really understand Calvinist theology if you think we believe humans have no free will. Free will (as most define it) is a necessity for humanity. Most Calvinists call this free agency. True free will was lost: your will is always going to be influenced by sin; therefore, you are not totally free in your decisions. But you always have a choice, your free agency.

So, I have two questions for NS Christians.
1) Is God omnipresent?
2) Is God Perfect?

Yes and Yes

If the answer to those two questions is true, then logically, all of existence is perfect. Also, if, as I have often heard said, a human is only perfect if he has accepted Jesus Christ. However, not everyone has in fact accepted Christ.

I do not know where you have heard that quote. I do not think that many Christians or anyone really claims to be perfect.

If God were have to created all people to be perfect than no person could be good because they would not have free will. If a person is automatically perfect than she is forced to do what is right. Part of being a person of faith and or good person (not that they are one in the same) is freely choosing to find God and make decisions that benefit oneself and more importantly others.

We live in a world of mud and muck-- but we can catch a glimpse of the stars.

No one is perfect until they find God--- I think is probably refering to a person finding God in heaven-- but I am not sure

Where did you here that Quote

also why does this only adress Christians?
The majority of religions believe that their God is perfect.

Ah. I still maintain that as God is a part of everything, everything has many of the aspects of God.


That's not a Chrisitan belief.
The common Christian belief you're referencing is that God is in every place, not in everything.
What you're saying is a different concept that has become popular in most New Age beliefs a couple of decades or more ago.

Are you sure that there is such a word as this? It most certainly isn't in my dictionary. Is it in yours? Different editions, you know.

Omnibenevolence (universal/total benevolence) is the property of being infinitely good/loving/forgiving. Though it's probably not in the dictionary, "benevolence" should be, and the omni- prefix usually means "all" or "completely".