NationStates Jolt Archive

I want Christians to explain this alleged free will that I do not understand.

Supposedly, the Christian god provides us with free will. If he would not have provided us with free will, then we'd simply be automatons and there would be no point.

What I question is how this "system" that this god has set up, provides us with free will.

We have the three following choices:

1) Be perfect and be with God
2) Seek salvation with Jesus Christ and be with God
3) Neglect from seeking salvation with Jesus and not be with God

Being with God brings you to heaven and you experience eternal happiness. Not being with god brings you to hell and you experience eternal torment. Being perfect is impossible.

Now Christians claim that we have the choice to either seek salvation with Jesus Christ, or not to. That is the essence of our free will.

I personally do not see how that is free will. He have the choice between eternal salvation and eternal torment, yet I ask you how is that a choice?

God has put a gun in my face and will shoot me (eternally) if I don't choose and obey him, or will put down the gun and give me happiness (eternally) I choose and obey him. Maybe God himself isn't pulling the trigger directly, but that is the essence of the "free will" we have.

So I ask you, Christians, could you explain to me *how* we have free will? Anything I missed that would totally unravel how this system give us free will?

Of course, I'm not addressing this to non-Christians because they're probably as confused as I am.

I want Christians to explain this alleged free will that I do not understand.

Supposedly, the Christian god provides us with free will. If he would not have provided us with free will, then we'd simply be automatons and there would be no point.

What I question is how this "system" that this god has set up, provides us with free will.

We have the three following choices:

1) Be perfect and be with God
2) Seek salvation with Jesus Christ and be with God
3) Neglect from seeking salvation with Jesus and not be with God

Being with God brings you to heaven and you experience eternal happiness. Not being with god brings you to hell and you experience eternal torment. Being perfect is impossible.

Now Christians claim that we have the choice to either seek salvation with Jesus Christ, or not to. That is the essence of our free will.

I personally do not see how that is free will. He have the choice between eternal salvation and eternal torment, yet I ask you how is that a choice?

God has put a gun in my face and will shoot me (eternally) if I don't choose and obey him, or will put down the gun and give me happiness (eternally) I choose and obey him. Maybe God himself isn't pulling the trigger directly, but that is the essence of the "free will" we have.

So I ask you, Christians, could you explain to me *how* we have free will? Anything I missed that would totally unravel how this system give us free will?

Of course, I'm not addressing this to non-Christians because they're probably as confused as I am.

I am an atheist, but feel that free will is pretty silly. Doesn't really work.


Also, I as well have a question for NS Christians...well, two questions, actually.
1) Is God omnipresent?
2) Is God Perfect?

If the answer to those two questions is true, then logically, all of existence is perfect. Also, if, as I have often heard said, a human is only perfect if he has accepted Jesus Christ. However, not everyone has in fact accepted Christ.

This (obviously) poses some problems for Christianity. I dont know the answers to these questions, though, so help me out here.

There are a lot of intelligent points you could have made about problems that free will presents for Christianity, but you seem to have opted out of all of them.

Free will simply means the ability choose between more than one possible course of action. Obviously, the choice to be with God or not is not the only choice you make throughout your life; most everyday choices have very little to do with choices about God. Furthermore you yourself claim that we can choose to follow God or not. You aren't even trying imply that we don't have free will in terms of whether or not we choose God, you are simply complaining that it's too obvious a choice.


(as a disclaimer, the beliefs Defiantland has outlined do not accurately describe the beliefs of many Christians, myself included. I am simply pointing out that his argument does not demonstrate any sort of inconsistency in those beliefs)

What, another one of these? Seriously guys, get a life.:rolleyes:

I am an atheist, but feel that free will is pretty silly. Doesn't really work.


Also, I as well have a question for NS Christians...well, two questions, actually.
1) Is God omnipresent?
2) Is God Perfect?

If the answer to those two questions is true, then logically, all of existence is perfect. Also, if, as I have often heard said, a human is only perfect if he has accepted Jesus Christ. However, not everyone has in fact accepted Christ.

This (obviously) poses some problems for Christianity. I dont know the answers to these questions, though, so help me out here.

These are good questions, but probably belong in a different thread.

These are good questions, but probably belong in a different thread.

Yeah, I suppose you are correct.

Sorry, Defiantland, for maybe-kind of accidentally attempting to hijack the thread.

What does the "NS" in NS christians stand for?:confused:

You'll find that even among Protestant Christians there are different opinions on this. The Arminians would place a higher emphasis on the moral autonomy of mankind, whereas Calvinists would emphasize the absolute but benevolent sovereignty of God. In most cases, both would agree that there is such a thing as free will, but they would define it a bit differently. I'm coming more from the Reformed position, so bear with me, and if you disagree I won't take it personally.

For me, the most important thing to affirm is the absolute goodness of God, and the fact that he can do anything he chooses. It's also important to mention the simplicity of God, which means that he sees plans, and directs all things at all times. Now obviously this sets up some dilemmas. I don't understand why exactly God allowed evil to come into being. We know that as a good God, he cannot cause sin, but where did it come from? This is one of those questions that we're probably not able to get our minds around. These questions have answers in the mind of God, but for us it's kind of like the idea of a fifth dimension - we can understand that it might exist, but we don't have any idea of what it would be like. Our minds aren't made to be able to understand it.

Anyway, the classic Reformed position on free will is basically that at one point humanity had a truly free ability to choose between good and evil, but at the point when our first parents chose to disobey God and sin, our hearts became darkened by sin to the point where we could not do anything good. (By anything good, I mean anything done out of love for God. Obviously people can do morally and ethically good things without knowing God, but their motivation is wrong and so it doesn't count as "good" in the Christian sense.) This free will can be restored through salvation, when the Holy Spirit (the third person of the Trinity - another incomprehensible mystery) changes a sinful heart so it can love God again, which is the basis of a good choice. Suddenly we can actually do good actions again. and once more we have a truly free choice.

This idea is different from the libertarian free choice that many non-Reformed Christians today adhere to, especially in the U.S. I think this assumption carries over in part from our culture of choice, where people are supposed to be completely autonomous. But that's another discussion. ;)

There are a lot of intelligent points you could have made about problems that free will presents for Christianity, but you seem to have opted out of all of them.

Free will simply means the ability choose between more than one possible course of action. Obviously, the choice to be with God or not is not the only choice you make throughout your life; most everyday choices have very little to do with choices about God. Furthermore you yourself claim that we can choose to follow God or not. You aren't even trying imply that we don't have free will in terms of whether or not we choose God, you are simply complaining that it's too obvious a choice.

You are correct in that I neglected to mention that I do not have the very choice to choose God or not, and I am restricted by my logical beliefs, which deny me ever believing in a specific god or gods. I guess I am going at this angle right now.


Yeah, I suppose you are correct.

Sorry, Defiantland, for maybe-kind of accidentally attempting to hijack the thread.

's alright :D

In reply to Thinguria:

I acknowledge your post. (I didn't want to make it seem like I was replying to everyone but you and was ignoring you) It is indeed thought-provoking.

I personally do not see how that is free will. He have the choice between eternal salvation and eternal torment, yet I ask you how is that a choice?

God has put a gun in my face and will shoot me (eternally) if I don't choose and obey him, or will put down the gun and give me happiness (eternally) I choose and obey him. Maybe God himself isn't pulling the trigger directly, but that is the essence of the "free will" we have.

Well, you've got it about right. The choices are definitely not equal. But we still have the choice. You're free to refuse, but ... I dont' recommend it!

But, when you think about it, God didn't have to save anyone. We've all forfeited any Divine favor by our sin. I mean, we've committed cosmic treason. We all deserve eternal hell, and it just shows how merciful God is that he crushed his own Son so that we could have this choice. For us, it's a win-win.

I grant you, this proposition doesn't do much for the self-esteem at first. But as a Christian, let me say from my own experience: I have so much more of a self-identity when I discover it in Christ than when I try to find it in who I am or what I do. The Christian life is not an easy way to live, but it's so full of joy!

I want Christians to explain this alleged free will that I do not understand.

Supposedly, the Christian god provides us with free will. If he would not have provided us with free will, then we'd simply be automatons and there would be no point.

What I question is how this "system" that this god has set up, provides us with free will.

We have the three following choices:

1) Be perfect and be with God
2) Seek salvation with Jesus Christ and be with God
3) Neglect from seeking salvation with Jesus and not be with God

Being with God brings you to heaven and you experience eternal happiness. Not being with god brings you to hell and you experience eternal torment. Being perfect is impossible.

Now Christians claim that we have the choice to either seek salvation with Jesus Christ, or not to. That is the essence of our free will.

I personally do not see how that is free will. He have the choice between eternal salvation and eternal torment, yet I ask you how is that a choice?

God has put a gun in my face and will shoot me (eternally) if I don't choose and obey him, or will put down the gun and give me happiness (eternally) I choose and obey him. Maybe God himself isn't pulling the trigger directly, but that is the essence of the "free will" we have.

So I ask you, Christians, could you explain to me *how* we have free will? Anything I missed that would totally unravel how this system give us free will?

Of course, I'm not addressing this to non-Christians because they're probably as confused as I am.


The answer is simple

Its called "free will" because you can choose to go either way despite the consequences, dipshit.

I mean, what part of "free will" is confusing you? I don't know why I even bother with you people.

atheist please explain me one thing?

what keep you from taking over?

what is it that holds you down?

if your going to die and be nothing anyways why dont you make the most out of your life?

I don't know what I'm supposed to be feeling right now.

Well, you've got it about right. The choices are definitely not equal. But we still have the choice. You're free to refuse, but ... I dont' recommend it!

I don't consider it a "choice".

Having to live under fear of death would not be a life of "free will" (analogy).

Likewise, choosing between eternal happiness and eternal torment is not a choice either. It would be moronic (sorry for my hostilities) to think it as such.

But, when you think about it, God didn't have to save anyone. We've all forfeited any Divine favor by our sin. I mean, we've committed cosmic treason. We all deserve eternal hell, and it just shows how merciful God is that he crushed his own Son so that we could have this choice. For us, it's a win-win.

I have not done anything to deserve eternal torment. NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING that I do in this life deserves eternal damnation. The same applies for eternal happiness, nothing that I do would ever earn me that. Hitler is responsible for the deaths of millions of jews, yet not even he deserves eternal punishment. A finite life does not render an judgement of eternal consequences.

By Christianity, God created us to fail, and we are damned from the moment we are born. God seems a bit diabolical here, for the only way for us to be saved from our hereditary sin is by loving him. He's forcing us to love him by this system he created.

I grant you, this proposition doesn't do much for the self-esteem at first. But as a Christian, let me say from my own experience: I have so much more of a self-identity when I discover it in Christ than when I try to find it in who I am or what I do. The Christian life is not an easy way to live, but it's so full of joy!

I do not have a response to that since I do not share this experience and therefore cannot comment on it.

Likewise, choosing between eternal happiness and eternal torment is not a choice either.


YES IT IS.

Choosing between something with good consequences and something with bad consequences is still choosing. That is the definition of a choice. What you are saying is roughly the same as, "I have the choice to rob this bank or not, but if I rob it I'll go to jail. How is that a choice?"

YES IT IS.

Choosing between something with good consequences and something with bad consequences is still choosing. That is the definition of a choice. What you are saying is roughly the same as, "I have the choice to rob this bank or not, but if I rob it I'll go to jail. How is that a choice?"

There are chances involved.

I have two choices:

Rob the bank
ADVANTAGES:
- obtain large amounts of money
- etc.

DISADVANTAGES:
- risk of being caught and going to jail
- etc.

In here, you're choosing whether you want to RISK going to jail in order to have a lot of money, or whether you're going to risk nothing and continue working for your money.

The choices God gives us are both 100%.

Tell me, if a person were to have a gun pointed at your head and tell you that you have the choice to either get shot in the head, or not get shot in the head, would you consider that a choice?

Christianity, like all other organized religions, came into being as a way for mankind to explain what he did not understand. So, of course, people hijacked it and turned it into something used for power, hence why most religions preach "BELIEVE US OR YOU WILL SUFFER ETERNAL DAMNATION" which is absolute bull honkey.

There is no god. An omniscient creator makes no sense. How would this creator have come into being itself? Does it create itself? No, because that does not make any sense.

There are questions science has yet to answer. Quite a few of them, in fact. But science tells us what reality is, not religion. I personally feel that those who believe in a religion are allowing themselves to be fooled into doctrination to ease their minds rather than using their minds to see what reality truly is.

To answer the question Defiantland proposed: Christian "Free will" does not truly exist. It is hypocritical like any other religiously defined free will.

There are chances involved.

I have two choices:

Rob the bank
ADVANTAGES:
- obtain large amounts of money
- etc.

DISADVANTAGES:
- risk of being caught and going to jail
- etc.

In here, you're choosing whether you want to RISK going to jail in order to have a lot of money, or whether you're going to risk nothing and continue working for your money.

The choices God gives us are both 100%.

Tell me, if a person were to have a gun pointed at your head and tell you that you have the choice to either get shot in the head, or not get shot in the head, would you consider that a choice?

I would consider it a very easy choice.

There is no god. An omniscient creator makes no sense. How would this creator have come into being itself? Does it create itself? No, because that does not make any sense.


Well, I guess that about settles it.

I honestly dont think we have a true, predefined, form of free will. What I do believe in is the fact that it doesnt matter, as long as we think we have free will, isnt it enough? As for the issues on heaven and hell, eternal suffering or bliss, if these exist at all (For I am not christian and dont believe them a definate), then maybe the best way to explain the system is Lutherism. Our destination being predetermined before we were even created. People who were born to go to heaven would always be inclined to do the proper and correct things while people who are destined to go to hell are inclined to make mistakes. When would anyone, even an omnipotent pressence, have the time to watch over the lives of everyone underneath him? Maybe he some form of random chance that decides for him our entire lives; which cells makes us, which sperm and egg, values we gather from those around us, even our sorrows and life changing events. that way the "randomizer wouldnt have to pay attention either, it would just have to pick key events that would meld our psyche. Wouldnt it be interesting to die and find out it was decided the same way as a man in vegas losing his car? Well, anyways, I'm just trying to say that when you think about it, it doesnt really matter-either way, it shouldnt change your life.

Christianity, like all other organized religions, came into being as a way for mankind to explain what he did not understand. So, of course, people hijacked it and turned it into something used for power, hence why most religions preach "BELIEVE US OR YOU WILL SUFFER ETERNAL DAMNATION" which is absolute bull honkey.

There is no god. An omniscient creator makes no sense. How would this creator have come into being itself? Does it create itself? No, because that does not make any sense.

There are questions science has yet to answer. Quite a few of them, in fact. But science tells us what reality is, not religion. I personally feel that those who believe in a religion are allowing themselves to be fooled into doctrination to ease their minds rather than using their minds to see what reality truly is.

To answer the question Defiantland proposed: Christian "Free will" does not truly exist. It is hypocritical like any other religiously defined free will.
I pity you. You have obviously been led to a path of sin by so-called scientists who think they can tell us what reality is. You will suffer in Hell when you die. I hope that before then you come to face the truth and believe in our Lord Jesus Christ.

christianity is the one great curse..

___666___
___666___
___666___
___666___
666666666
666666666
___666___
___666___

hail satan. christian holocaust.

christianity is the one great curse..

___666___
___666___
___666___
___666___
666666666
666666666
___666___
___666___

hail satan. christian holocaust.

....isnt that a little much? And I love how you go into such intacrite detail one this eledged "curse". Please, enlighten us with your opinion on the matter or dont bother.

Well, I guess that about settles it.

well, maybe there was a big bang that created a god and then a god created a universe, or maybe a god lived forever in the past-never originating from anything. Or maybe a god kills the universe every once in a while and then is reborn phoenix style so it can make the next one. those are just answers, but itsnt it at all possible that a creature evovled billions of years before us with a copletely different genetic make up to work off of. there are billions of possibilities. In fact, there are almost as many as there are for the universe creating itself in some natural phenominon that happened as a result of nothing-see? Now that sounds impossible too.

I pity you. You have obviously been led to a path of sin by so-called scientists who think they can tell us what reality is. You will suffer in Hell when you die. I hope that before then you come to face the truth and believe in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Dude, a quick tip: if that's your honest opinion, you're going about putting it across in a very unproductive manner. My guess? The average person looking at your post is, if he's already unimpressed by Christian theology, going to remain that way. He will, however, go away with the distinct impression that Christians (or, at least, certain Christians) are a bunch of judgemental, holier-than-thou gits.

So God is like a dictator? Is that what you're saying? Obey his every word or you'll be severely punished?

According to Christianity, God seems like a Fascist.

Its like taxes, voluntary, but if you dont pay, you go to jail. Hope that clears it up for you!:rolleyes:

Vaguely back on track.... I'm not strictly a Christian, but I might be able to help with the original question.

From the theological standpoint 'free-will' is an absolute must for Christianity, and indeed for most religions. If you didn't have free will then your evil actions would be the fault of God, and because if you are Christian you believe that God is good, this doesn’t fit. On the other hand the Christian God is omniscient and transcends the boundaries of time (was, is, always will be) and thus God, in existence at your judgement, knows your life story, because it happened, However, you had the free will to make those life choices.


To the second set of questions as to omnipresence and God being perfect, probably the best way to explain this is through a look at the presence of Christ in the host and of Christ's sacrifice respectively:

The less technical one is that God was Christ (the whole trinity thing) and that therefore Christ was God. For Christ to represent a suitable sacrifice for all of our sins he had to be without sin i.e. perfect, which is supported by the Bible. If Christ is perfect and Christ is God then God is perfect.

The more technical one involves God's omnipresence. God is omnipresent, yes, this is argued in both the Old and New Testament. At this hour all I can think of is the passage suggesting that wherever people meet in [God's] name, he will be there. That might be Corinthians but don't quote me on it, if you need it I'll find it for you. However, Christ is not, as a man, is not omnipresent, he is limited to the mortal body. This leads to the whole debate over transubstantiation, which Reformed Christians would argue is complete rubbish, but Catholics would say is something you have to take on faith. Transubstantiation assumes that Christ’s flesh can be omnipresent, unless you engage in some interesting philosophical arguments. The reformed view is that Christ is ‘with, in and under, but not the host’ (Luther), or is not present at the Lord ’s Supper (Zwingli) or has a real presence in the host as God (Calvin, Bucer etc.) but not as man. I hope that gives a glimpse of the idea that the deity is omnipresent, but God made man is not (although Christ as a deity is).

Feel free to comment.

Dude, a quick tip: if that's your honest opinion, you're going about putting it across in a very unproductive manner. My guess? The average person looking at your post is, if he's already unimpressed by Christian theology, going to remain that way. He will, however, go away with the distinct impression that Christians (or, at least, certain Christians) are a bunch of judgemental, holier-than-thou gits.

Damn right! The rest of us xtians arent that stuck up! (mostly)

Damn right! The rest of us xtians arent that stuck up! (mostly)

Yes... ignore the dogmatic views and stick to the theology :p

I want Christians to explain this alleged free will that I do not understand.

Supposedly, the Christian god provides us with free will. If he would not have provided us with free will, then we'd simply be automatons and there would be no point.

What I question is how this "system" that this god has set up, provides us with free will.

We have the three following choices:

1) Be perfect and be with God
2) Seek salvation with Jesus Christ and be with God
3) Neglect from seeking salvation with Jesus and not be with God

Being with God brings you to heaven and you experience eternal happiness. Not being with god brings you to hell and you experience eternal torment. Being perfect is impossible.

Now Christians claim that we have the choice to either seek salvation with Jesus Christ, or not to. That is the essence of our free will.

I personally do not see how that is free will. He have the choice between eternal salvation and eternal torment, yet I ask you how is that a choice?

God has put a gun in my face and will shoot me (eternally) if I don't choose and obey him, or will put down the gun and give me happiness (eternally) I choose and obey him. Maybe God himself isn't pulling the trigger directly, but that is the essence of the "free will" we have.

So I ask you, Christians, could you explain to me *how* we have free will? Anything I missed that would totally unravel how this system give us free will?

Of course, I'm not addressing this to non-Christians because they're probably as confused as I am.

Sigh - so much ignorance - so little time. The most obvious? Good works do not lead to salvation, but salvation does lead to good works. You got it all backwards. At the end of the day it is about what is in the heart - and if at the moment of judgement Jesus is found - even if just by a second - then you are saved. Some people would ask then why not wait until the last minute to be saved? The most obvious answer? Why would you want to? Sin does not offer anything comparable to being right with God - it just tries to fool you into thinking it can. It is the sneaky deceiver and fools the mighty and the weak, the holy as well as the ignorant.

If you want to know about free will watch the movie 'Bruce Almighty' and pay close attention to God's answer to Bruce when he asks (about free will) "Can I ask why?"

I pity you. You have obviously been led to a path of sin by so-called scientists who think they can tell us what reality is. You will suffer in Hell when you die. I hope that before then you come to face the truth and believe in our Lord Jesus Christ.

What the fuck?!?!

Bite me bible-boy. You wouldn't know Jesus if he walked across your pool and slapped you with a loaf of bread.

-snip-
There is no god. An omniscient creator makes no sense. How would this creator have come into being itself? Does it create itself? No, because that does not make any sense.
God most likely has existed forever. If something created God, then what created that? And what created the thing before that? etc. The same thing can be said of the big bang theory. What created the dense mass of matter that existed before the big bang (or lead to the formation of that matter)?
There are questions science has yet to answer. Quite a few of them, in fact. But science tells us what reality is, not religion. I personally feel that those who believe in a religion are allowing themselves to be fooled into doctrination to ease their minds rather than using their minds to see what reality truly is.
While the majority of Christians unfortunately fit into what you have said, Christianity is not about easing one's mind. Many scientists have been Christians. The first one that comes to my mind is Gregor Mendel, who was an Austrian monk.

Remember, methodical understanding of the universe is not everyone's goal.
To answer the question Defiantland proposed: Christian "Free will" does not truly exist. It is hypocritical like any other religiously defined free will. Yes, Christian free will exists. It exists in the same way that other life choices exist. You can choose not to go to school, and have fun when you're young, but suffer the consequences when you are older, or you can go to school, do well, and get a good job that will have you comfortable for the rest of your life. A lot of people would say that the latter is the obvious choice, but that is not the case. Many people have chosen the former. Just saying that it is not free will if the choice is too easy oversimplifies the matter.

Good works do not lead to salvation, but salvation does lead to good works.

Oooooo you can't do that with Christian Theology! :eek:

Romans 3:31
'Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law'

Even the hardcore Protestant reformers agree that this passage suggests that works can justify (save). Calvin, for example, uses works as a justifying force, but merely denies that works play any part in the first instance of justification (the leap of faith).

Even this is debatable, though. If you go talk to a Catholic, they are going to direct you here:

James 2:17
'So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead'

It's the same kind of free will the mafia give you. You're either with them and get all kinds of kickbacks... or you're against them and you get a bullet to the brain. Either way, it's your choice, and it's one you can't refuse.

The best choices in life are the ones you can't refuse!

Oooooo you can't do that with Christian Theology! :eek:

Romans 3:31
'Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law'

Even the hardcore Protestant reformers agree that this passage suggests that works can justify (save). Calvin, for example, uses works as a justifying force, but merely denies that works play any part in the first instance of justification (the leap of faith).

Even this is debatable, though. If you go talk to a Catholic, they are going to direct you here:

James 2:17
'So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead'

That just means that it's pointless to believe in God if you aren't acting on that belief. That CONFIRMS B0zzy's comment, which was ironically the only coherent statement in his post.

Oooooo you can't do that with Christian Theology! :eek:

Romans 3:31
'Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law'

Even the hardcore Protestant reformers agree that this passage suggests that works can justify (save). Calvin, for example, uses works as a justifying force, but merely denies that works play any part in the first instance of justification (the leap of faith).

Even this is debatable, though. If you go talk to a Catholic, they are going to direct you here:

James 2:17
'So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead'

1) Salvation is not the only thing that can lead to good works. (which is why good works alone is useless)

2) Faith without good works is really not faith. As I clearly said - salvation leads to good works. If you say you are faithful but do nothing to reflect that then you really are not faithful.

It's the same kind of free will the mafia give you. You're either with them and get all kinds of kickbacks... or you're against them and you get a bullet to the brain. Either way, it's your choice, and it's one you can't refuse.

The best choices in life are the ones you can't refuse!

That is just silly. Christian theologians have always worked thier way around this. Go look at Luther's reply to Erasmus' tracts denying free-will here. (http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/luther/bondage/) If you want to look further into it, go read the debate between Peligans and Augustine of Hippo.

That just means that it's pointless to believe in God if you aren't acting on that belief. That CONFIRMS B0zzy's comment, which was ironically the only coherent statement in his post.
And what, specifically, about my post did you find so difficult to follow , Grasshopper?

1) Salvation is not the only thing that can lead to good works. (which is why good works alone is useless)

2) Faith without good works is really not faith. As I clearly said - salvation leads to good works. If you say you are faithful but do nothing to reflect that then you really are not faithful.

Yup, yup :)

Just wanted to highlight that this is a contentious issue and that its very important to get the specifics right. You have to allow for the power of works, Catholics might do penance, Protestants might do somethign similar, but the point is that without these works man is not saved in Chrisitan theology (unless he dies right after intitial justification!). The main point of divergence would come if you asked a question around your first point, of whether good works without faith can save. In brief, Catholics say yes, Protestants say no. Its debatable.

That is just silly. Christian theologians have always worked thier way around this. Go look at Luther's reply to Erasmus' tracts denying free-will here. (http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/luther/bondage/) If you want to look further into it, go read the debate between Peligans and Augustine of Hippo.

Yeah. And Christian theologians have "proved God" too. If I were to base my opinions on Christian theology solely on the opinions of Christian theologians, I would obviously believe free will is reconcilable with an all-powerful, judgemental deity. Hell, I'd believe in God myself now, wouldn't I? ;)

I want Christians to explain this alleged free will that I do not understand.

Supposedly, the Christian god provides us with free will. If he would not have provided us with free will, then we'd simply be automatons and there would be no point.

What I question is how this "system" that this god has set up, provides us with free will.

We have the three following choices:

1) Be perfect and be with God
2) Seek salvation with Jesus Christ and be with God
3) Neglect from seeking salvation with Jesus and not be with God

Being with God brings you to heaven and you experience eternal happiness. Not being with god brings you to hell and you experience eternal torment. Being perfect is impossible.

Now Christians claim that we have the choice to either seek salvation with Jesus Christ, or not to. That is the essence of our free will.

I personally do not see how that is free will. He have the choice between eternal salvation and eternal torment, yet I ask you how is that a choice?

God has put a gun in my face and will shoot me (eternally) if I don't choose and obey him, or will put down the gun and give me happiness (eternally) I choose and obey him. Maybe God himself isn't pulling the trigger directly, but that is the essence of the "free will" we have.

So I ask you, Christians, could you explain to me *how* we have free will? Anything I missed that would totally unravel how this system give us free will?

Of course, I'm not addressing this to non-Christians because they're probably as confused as I am. wrong analogy. God has to Keys. one key will open the door to the kingdom of heaven where you will spend eternity with Him. the other key will open a door that will separate you from God forever.

you hear all sorts of things from both sides, both Good and Bad for both choices.

God will use you like a puppet, Without God you will burn in Hell, God will love and cherish you, Without God you can be free to do what ever you want... etc.

Make your choice.

Untill the time comes when you cannot change your mind, you will never know what's on the other side of either door.

Yeah. And Christian theologians have "proved God" too. If I were to base my opinions on Christian theology solely on the opinions of Christian theologians, I would obviously believe free will is reconcilable with an all-powerful, judgemental deity. Hell, I'd believe in God myself now, wouldn't I? ;)

Almost no Christian theologian accepts that a viable proof of God's existence has been presented.

Yeah. And Christian theologians have "proved God" too. If I were to base my opinions on Christian theology solely on the opinions of Christian theologians, I would obviously believe free will is reconcilable with an all-powerful, judgemental deity. Hell, I'd believe in God myself now, wouldn't I? ;)

Well I'm not a Christian, I'm just a theologian, and I find the Christian arguments hold up within thier own system, which is after all a self contained entity. The only way that I have found of Christian theologians 'proving God' has been within that system, it necessitates a leap of faith to get into that loop in the first place. Perhaps therefore what you refer to are the efforts of Christian evangelists to convince you that God exists?

Almost no Christian theologian accepts that a viable proof of God's existence has been presented.

And the ones that do? Are they not "real Christians" not "real theologians?"

They are simply in the minority.

And the ones that do? Are they not "real Christians" not "real theologians?"

I'm sure that they quote the Bible. You don't provide any specifics so I can't say. Certainly I have never encountered any who don't. If they use the Bible to prove thier argument, then that works, but only if you accept the Chrisitan message in the first place. Ipso facto, they do not 'prove God' to anybody but the believer, who knows that God cannot be proved, because a fundamental part of the Christian faith is the faith and mystery of it; it kind of leads to the whole point of redemption by that belief system.

They are simply in the minority.

Well, that doesn't make them wrong. So whether the majority disagrees about viable proofs of God or not is irrelevant - the fact is people have - in their mind - proven God. And if I were the sort to just say, "ah, well, Christians have proven God" I'd also be the sort to say, "Ah, well, Christians have shown that free will is perfectly reconcilable with their concept of God and Hell."

In other words, citing these people as a means to refute my assertaion means jack shit to me.

Well, that doesn't make them wrong. So whether the majority disagrees about viable proofs of God or not is irrelevant - the fact is people have - in their mind - proven God. And if I were the sort to just say, "ah, well, Christians have proven God" I'd also be the sort to say, "Ah, well, Christians have shown that free will is perfectly reconcilable with their concept of God and Hell."

In other words, citing these people as a means to refute my assertaion means jack shit to me.

Refute my point?

Refute my point?

What exactly is your point? Christian free will isn't like a mafia "choice" because ______?

Well, that doesn't make them wrong. So whether the majority disagrees about viable proofs of God or not is irrelevant - the fact is people have - in their mind - proven God. And if I were the sort to just say, "ah, well, Christians have proven God" I'd also be the sort to say, "Ah, well, Christians have shown that free will is perfectly reconcilable with their concept of God and Hell."

In other words, citing these people as a means to refute my assertaion means jack shit to me.

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you...it sounds like you're saying that any argument about the logical workability of free will in Christianity doesn't count if it comes from a Christian.

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you...it sounds like you're saying that any argument about the logical workability of free will in Christianity doesn't count if it comes from a Christian.

Well, it certainly bears less weight due to bias, no? Particularly when said Christians also "prove God." Why it's almost as if every argument they make is designed purely to justify their beliefs, isn't it!

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you...it sounds like you're saying that any argument about the logical workability of free will in Christianity doesn't count if it comes from a Christian.

Like I said before, the Christian God is sort of like Mussolini. If you don't obey him, he'll make you suffer.

Well, it certainly bears less weight due to bias, no? Particularly when said Christians also "prove God." Why it's almost as if every argument they make is designed purely to justify their beliefs, isn't it!

If God is supposed to be all-loving, why does he punish people?:confused:

What exactly is your point? Christian free will isn't like a mafia "choice" because ______?

If you cannot take the time to read the earlier discussion in this thread :( let me give you the real basics.

Christianity is a belief system and you can choose to (not) adopt that belief system.
If you do choose you have to believe that you have free will, otherwise it nullifies the Christian belief system. I’ve explained this is far more depth earlier.

Even within Christian theology it is not a 'mafia choice'. Indeed, even under the law (Judaism) that analogy is highly misleading and very unhelpful. The two main types of apologetic theology state that:

1) No man deserves to be saved, we are all under sin, and therefore it’s actually a favour God does to you, completely regardless of works.

2) Sin is in effect dead because with faith (and/or good works) you can always choose to repent; therefore you can effectively sin and be saved, it’s just that you shouldn't set out to do bad things in the first place.

I think Christians would argue that it is an offer you can’t refuse, but only because it seems so good. Not sure the Godfather would have worked with the mafia coming round and telling people they had to be good because if they didn’t they would have to say sorry?

So it's all or nothing, eh? If you believe, then free will magically makes sense. If you don't believe, then it doesn't. Some logic that is.

[quote]
Even within Christian theology it is not a 'mafia choice'. Indeed, even under the law (Judaism) that analogy is highly misleading and very unhelpful. The two main types of apologetic theology state that:

1) No man deserves to be saved, we are all under sin, and therefore it’s actually a favour God does to you, completely regardless of works.

2) Sin is in effect dead because with faith (and/or good works) you can always choose to repent; therefore you can effectively sin and be saved, it’s just that you shouldn't set out to do bad things in the first place.

Har. And of course, no businessman deserves to be able to do business in this mafia don's territory. Therefore it's actually a favour the mafia give!


I think Christians would argue that it is an offer you can’t refuse, but only because it seems so good. Not sure the Godfather would have worked with the mafia coming round and telling people they had to be good because if they didn’t they would have to say sorry?

The punishment in Christianity seems to be burning in Hell, not "saying sorry." And yes, the mafia would argue that it is an offer you can't refuse in their case too - only because it seems so good. You get to live and be happy and wealthy - wow!

It's still the same type of choice.

If God is supposed to be all-loving, why does he punish people?:confused:


The way I see it, it's not that God is punishing you. When you die, if you did not believe, then rather then God sending you down to hell, it's more like Satan takes you and God just watches unhappily.

but that's just the view of someone who is totally ignorant in all ways :D

So it's all or nothing, eh? If you believe, then free will magically makes sense. If you don't believe, then it doesn't. Some logic that is.

Yeah sorry, its a self contained belief system that some people deem to be true. They usually deem it to be true on evidence of personal experience, looking at archaelogical or scientific evidence or such things. That's not my field, but there are plenty of books written to convince you of the truth of Christianity as a belief system. My point is that within that belief system free-will is inherent. The post asked about its exact nature, so I gave an answer, which I hope was helpful.

Har. And of course, no businessman deserves to be able to do business in this mafia don's territory. Therefore it's actually a favour the mafia give!

If you subscribe to the belief system you believe that you were created by God, and that your ancestors entered into a covenant with Him that was to applied through all generations, and therefore you choose to bind yourself to it. However, no man can honestly keep his side of the covenant, so yes it is a favour to be let off so lightly (all you have to do is believe that Christ died for you). Of course if you don't subscribe to Christianity you need not a) be bound or b) be released, so this is a bit silly really.

The punishment in Christianity seems to be burning in Hell, not "saying sorry." And yes, the mafia would argue that it is an offer you can't refuse in their case too - only because it seems so good. You get to live and be happy and wealthy - wow!

Go re-read that lol. If you were carrying forth the analogy it would be that the mafia shoot you if you arent good, God just asks you to say sorry. This is possible up until, and in some cases beyond, death, with no penalty for late repentance.

It's still the same type of choice.

Aparantly... :rolleyes:

The way I see it, it's not that God is punishing you. When you die, if you did not believe, then rather then God sending you down to hell, it's more like Satan takes you and God just watches unhappily.

but that's just the view of someone who is totally ignorant in all ways :D

Yeah that reminds me. Christian hell, guys, its not necesarily devils and scorched bottoms. Christian writing is actually initially very vague on the subject, it just refers to it as a seperation from God, like dying. What the sources point to is the idea that death is kinda inevitable, but if you want you can have a cookie instead ;)

If God is supposed to be all-loving, why does he punish people?:confused:

Well would not good loving parents punish their children if their children did wrong?

If you cannot take the time to read the earlier discussion in this thread :( let me give you the real basics.
I think Christians would argue that it is an offer you can’t refuse, but only because it seems so good. Not sure the Godfather would have worked with the mafia coming round and telling people they had to be good because if they didn’t they would have to say sorry?

Just thought I'd add my two cents seeing as no one else seems to have brought up this fact yet.

the choices aren't simply a will I go to heaven or hell,
To take the analogy of the person furthur up it would be like the choice to have a high paying job which or being stuck in a dead end minimum wage job. This choice seems obviously simple, but the reason people end up in the latter crap job (this is a generalization for illistrative purposes) is because that isn't the choice, it's the result of the choices you made throughout your life. The choice which leads to the high paying job is to go to school, study hard, don't do drugs, eat your vegetables, whatever

So similarly the result of your life choices leads to heaven/hell option.
To "choose" heaven is not simply to believe in Jesus (It really gets to me this statement, the number of times I hear it...). It is to live the life of Jesus, to put it one way. Forgive me for not knowing the verses, paraphased it goes something like - Who ever wants to save his life must lose it, if you want to follow me you must die to yourself, pick up your cross and follow me.
Something like that anyways. So the point is you have to give up all your plans, wants, desires, for your life and hand over control to God.

This, apparently leads to all things so much better than your plans and desires for your life, which if God exists makes sense being that he's supposivly all loving, all knowing. So your giving up your plan made with the knowledge you possess now for one created by a being which has ultimate knowledge and power which wants the best for you (such a fatherly figure). Of coarse this doesn't mean life will be peachy and clean. God will make you work, and may put you in situations where you won't want to do what He wants you too and all that shumozzle. And in these times you probably will screw up, at least once. Thats where the repentance comes in. To repent isn't saying sorry. To repent is to really mean sorry, so much so that you get up off your ass and honestly try never to screwup again.
So you can't just be like all i'll believe, not do anything about it, live how i want still, and say sorry later and all will be good. Theres a passage that says pretty much (once again paraphrased) on judgement day Jesus will be all hey you ignored me all your life so i'll ignore you now. And they get carted off to hell with the rest of the unbelievers.

alternatively you can drop the facade entirly live how you want with no godly influence. Be your own man. Make your own life.

This is free will as I understand it. The ability to lead your life the way you want. It's not about choosing heaven or hell. It's choosing your life, who you want to be, how you want to live your life. To me this is a fairly undisputable claim, because if you don't believe in free will, you can't hold anyone accountable for their actions. Hence no one has any right to punish anyone for any crime they might ever comit. To me this is the escapists view. Someone who can't live in reality.

I appoligise for the badly structured arguement I put forth, this is explicitly my views on the matter and do not represent the views of any race, religion, gender, sexuality, secret society or any other people group. It isn't nessisarily factually accurate though, it is to the best of the authors (my) knowledge. :p

I don’t understand how free will and "good deeds alone wont get you into Heaven", but repenting can. So a child molester who repents and asks for forgiveness is more likely to go to heaven than say Gandhi or the Dalai Lama who have chosen to live good, giving lives. I cant accept this part of Christianity.

I don’t understand how free will and "good deeds alone wont get you into Heaven", but repenting can. So a child molester who repents and asks for forgiveness is more likely to go to heaven than say Gandhi or the Dalai Lama who have chosen to live good, giving lives. I cant accept this part of Christianity.

God forgives all nature of sin. The Dali and Gandhi, if they were never given a fair shake to accept Christ, will still have an opportunity.

Well I'm not a Christian, I'm just a theologian, and I find the Christian arguments hold up within thier own system, which is after all a self contained entity. The only way that I have found of Christian theologians 'proving God' has been within that system, it necessitates a leap of faith to get into that loop in the first place. Perhaps therefore what you refer to are the efforts of Christian evangelists to convince you that God exists?

You're on the right track. You'll never be able to taste with your ears or see with your tongue.

I personally do not see how that is free will. He have the choice between eternal salvation and eternal torment, yet I ask you how is that a choice?

It's a choice exactly as you've described you. You get to pick.

No one said you weren't being coerced. Just that the decision ultimately rests with you.

Oooooo you can't do that with Christian Theology! :eek:

Romans 3:31
'Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law'

Even the hardcore Protestant reformers agree that this passage suggests that works can justify (save). Calvin, for example, uses works as a justifying force, but merely denies that works play any part in the first instance of justification (the leap of faith).

Even this is debatable, though. If you go talk to a Catholic, they are going to direct you here:

James 2:17
'So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead'
I've never in my life met a Christian theologian or pastor who thought you could be saved by works alone. The Catholics think it takes a combination (in response to such verses as you've listed).
Most Protestant denominations that I have any knowledge of (my father's a United Methodist pastor) hold that faith alone is all that's needed, BUT that if that faith is true then the good works will flow from it.

In response to the OP: As many others have said, that's a choice even if it is coerced. Moreover, many theologians (and there's evidence in the Bible, yes) hold that Hell is not the fiery pit so many people think of, but actually the absence of God...which is fitting if you've chosen not to acknowledge him throughout your mortal life.
Of course, then there's the belief alongside that that all love flows from God, which means that in such a world you'd basically be screwed.

atheist please explain me one thing?

what keep you from taking over?

what is it that holds you down?

if your going to die and be nothing anyways why dont you make the most out of your life?

You don't make the most out of your life? Wow, how much are you wasting your one and only.

I hold myself down when I believe it it best to. Either because it will cause some harm to me, or because it violates my moral code. My moral code is not based on some celestial carrot on a stick, it is what I believe is right, no matter what. And to be honest I doubt a person with a concept of heaven (and so a reward to everything) could understand.

What, another one of these? Seriously guys, get a life.:rolleyes:

Indeed, questioning authority and trying to understand beliefs should be ended, nay, insulted. That's how conservatism works.

My moral code is not based on some celestial carrot on a stick, it is what I believe is right, no matter what. And to be honest I doubt a person with a concept of heaven (and so a reward to everything) could understand.
No offense, but I rather suspect that in the end the lessons of that "celestial carrot on a stick" and "what I believe is right" have the same origins.

I want Christians to explain this alleged free will that I do not understand.

Supposedly, the Christian god provides us with free will. If he would not have provided us with free will, then we'd simply be automatons and there would be no point.

What I question is how this "system" that this god has set up, provides us with free will.

We have the three following choices:

1) Be perfect and be with God
2) Seek salvation with Jesus Christ and be with God
3) Neglect from seeking salvation with Jesus and not be with God

Being with God brings you to heaven and you experience eternal happiness. Not being with god brings you to hell and you experience eternal torment. Being perfect is impossible.

Now Christians claim that we have the choice to either seek salvation with Jesus Christ, or not to. That is the essence of our free will.

I personally do not see how that is free will. He have the choice between eternal salvation and eternal torment, yet I ask you how is that a choice?

God has put a gun in my face and will shoot me (eternally) if I don't choose and obey him, or will put down the gun and give me happiness (eternally) I choose and obey him. Maybe God himself isn't pulling the trigger directly, but that is the essence of the "free will" we have.

So I ask you, Christians, could you explain to me *how* we have free will? Anything I missed that would totally unravel how this system give us free will?

Of course, I'm not addressing this to non-Christians because they're probably as confused as I am.

God doesn't send you to Hell. He cannot look upon sin without rage (both suggested and confirmed in many places in the Bible, most notably with the flood, where, by all accounts, He was pretty vexed), therefore to sin against Him is to reject Him utterly.

Therefore, anyone who goes to Hell decided to go there themselves. His very provision of free will to us prevents Him from changing our choices, thus meaning that we end up where we act ourselves into... if that makes sense.

To go deeper than that, one must recall that Lucifer's statement "I will" is the first act of sin, and, that, rather than destroying Him, God grants him his will - despite knowing (being omnipotent and omniscient) that this is a Very Bad Thing. When man chooses will outside of God above being inside the will of God by eating from the tree, he essentially does precisely what Lucifer did. And again, like the greatest of parents, God allows His children their mistakes.

Lucifer's punishment is the pit (ala Hell), where those who follow him (by rejecting God and thus rejecting the promise of the New Kingdom to follow) will also end up. Which is, providing they knew the choice and made it, where they chose to be. Theologically things can get complex here, and there's lots of indecision on what happens to people who never read the Word of God, so, let's avoid that one for now. ;)

Further, God promises perfection in the New Kingdom; therefore He can no more allow an unrepentant sinner into heaven than a decent government could allow an unrepentant sex offender to work with vulnerable people.

He is a God who imposes limits on Himself in the pursuit of our free will; He also states clearly that He loves us all, which must make it horrifically hard to not interfere except in ways which offer us new choices.

Whether our own actions then lead us on the wrong path or not, I think the fact that He always keeps to His promises, no matter how they may harm Him, is pretty incredible.

If any eyes that read this find any shred of wisdom in the words, then you know I'm not the one to thank. :)

You don't make the most out of your life? Wow, how much are you wasting your one and only.

I hold myself down when I believe it it best to. Either because it will cause some harm to me, or because it violates my moral code. My moral code is not based on some celestial carrot on a stick, it is what I believe is right, no matter what. And to be honest I doubt a person with a concept of heaven (and so a reward to everything) could understand.

What's so complex about that that having a concept of heaven is supposed to prevent me from understanding?

God forgives all nature of sin. The Dali and Gandhi, if they were never given a fair shake to accept Christ, will still have an opportunity.

But you are still saying that they have to choose this one faith and its teachings to do anything but burn in hell.

Why are there some of you out there that are under the assumption that with out a god or religious teaching that we are amoral on unethical. I am a long time atheist, I coach Special Olympics, teach children to swim, and volunteer with the big brothers organization. Why you might ask, not because of any spiritual teaching or fear of being damned, but because I believe it is right and enjoy it.

There are a lot of intelligent points you could have made about problems that free will presents for Christianity, but you seem to have opted out of all of them.

Free will simply means the ability choose between more than one possible course of action. Obviously, the choice to be with God or not is not the only choice you make throughout your life; most everyday choices have very little to do with choices about God. Furthermore you yourself claim that we can choose to follow God or not. You aren't even trying imply that we don't have free will in terms of whether or not we choose God, you are simply complaining that it's too obvious a choice.


(as a disclaimer, the beliefs Defiantland has outlined do not accurately describe the beliefs of many Christians, myself included. I am simply pointing out that his argument does not demonstrate any sort of inconsistency in those beliefs)

Man has no free will under this belief.
"God" gives the option for Humans to either indulge in their "Free Will" under eternal punishment or follow what he wants them to do with his rewards.

To Christians, all of us are merely dogs waiting to train ourselves not to piss the carpet.
Guilty until proven innocent and then damnation.

Why are there some of you out there that are under the assumption that with out a god or religious teaching that we are amoral on unethical. I am a long time atheist, I coach Special Olympics, teach children to swim, and volunteer with the big brothers organization. Why you might ask, not because of any spiritual teaching or fear of being damned, but because I believe it is right and enjoy it.


Because we are eternally damned for our disbeliefs. You will rot in hell, no matter what you have accomplished in your life, because you have not taken Jesus into your heart.
Because this gracious God is by far the most judgemental!

What's so complex about that that having a concept of heaven is supposed to prevent me from understanding?


You couldn't understand the freedom of fearlessness from not becoming docile to an unproven dogma.
I understand that there is no heaven, so I make my reality my paradise... instead of hopelessly waiting for it come death. All of this, regardless of what an eternal babysitter might believe.

You're free to believe whatever you want, but try to make sense when you express it.

Because we are eternally damned for our disbeliefs. You will rot in hell, no matter what you have accomplished in your life, because you have not taken Jesus into your heart.
Because this gracious God is by far the most judgemental!

Which is why I can never call myself a Christian. It is an illusion of free will kept in check by fear. I am speaking out of line and want to apologize now. This is the dogma used by the church and not an attack on the ideals of the faith, or the common Christians.

God has put a gun in my face and will shoot me (eternally) if I don't choose and obey him, or will put down the gun and give me happiness (eternally) I choose and obey him. Maybe God himself isn't pulling the trigger directly, but that is the essence of the "free will" we have.

So I ask you, Christians, could you explain to me *how* we have free will? Anything I missed that would totally unravel how this system give us free will?


Hell was not created for humans. If you read the Bible you see that Hell was created for the Devil and his cohorts. The purpose of hell was punishment for those who rebel against God. Its just humans chose to do that as well. God of course doesnt want us to go to hell which is why he sent Jesus. But because of free will, he can't force us to accept Jesus, nor would he want to. Because to accept Jesus is to love God and you cannot force someone to love you. Love has to come through free choice.

Why are there some of you out there that are under the assumption that with out a god or religious teaching that we are amoral on unethical. I am a long time atheist, I coach Special Olympics, teach children to swim, and volunteer with the big brothers organization. Why you might ask, not because of any spiritual teaching or fear of being damned, but because I believe it is right and enjoy it.

I do what is right because it is right and I enjoy it. I do not do things because I believe God will do x or y if I don't. I doubt He'd be very impressed at that, anyway.

Because we are eternally damned for our disbeliefs. You will rot in hell,

We know this already. It's just about the ONLY thing everybody remembers about Christianity. Do we need to ram it down people's throats on every mention of faith?

No, I think not.

ive spent a lot of time studying comparative theology in my own time, so id like to add a few things to this debate.

assuming the bible is telling the truth

1/ the old testament is a transcription of judaic lore, the new testament is the writings of individuals following the birth/death/resurection of christ.

2/ the god of the old testament was vengeful. he stuck down lucifer and the rebellious angels, he punished Adam and eve for disobeying him, he flooded the world, he sent plagues upon the egyptians in the stories of moses, and passover is all his falt.

3/ prior to the birth of christ all humans were subject to the "sins of the father", that is they were all tainted by adam and eve's refusal to honour his wishes.

4/ christ was immaculately conceived, that is, born free of the sins of the father (the concept of "virgin birth" is a mis-translation from the hebrew), with his sacrifice all of humanity ws freed from the taint of original sin (adam and eves actions). humans were no longer born sinful but clean, this heralds in the age of christianity and the new testament, within which god is merciful and good.

5/ because humanity is born clean, the potential for using the new born religion as a means of social control is limited (bare in mind there is a case for the creation of christianity by the roman government as means of slave-control), with this problem comes the advent the catholic church, with its concept of "as on earth shall be on heaven", which means that the catholic church decides who is granted access to paradise, thus purgatory is created as a place of punishment for those that do not follow catholic teachings. therefore god has foresaken the right to choose who enters the kingdom of heaven, leaving the choice of morality up to a mortal institution.

now, assuming this is all true, then we have free will in the sense that we may chose

a/ whether or not to believe, the god of the new testament is not a "jealous god" bu a merciful one.

b/ whether or not to follow catholic dogma, despite the potential that failing to conform may lead to an eternity of purgatory. however, even then we have the chance to repent before god of all our sins, meaning we can live our lives as we choose, and ensuring our penitance is heartfelt we will still be granted entrance into paradise.

now for the real kicker.

the entire of the new testament cannot be in any logical way the "literal word of god" as every passage is presaged by such titles as "the gospel of christ according to saint (insert name here)" and "letters from paul to the corinthians" and "the revelation of St john the divine". everything has come through at least 1 layer of interpretation. then add in the idea that the gospels were not written for several decades following christs death, meaning there is afair chance that the gospels were not written by their alledged authors, with the recurring problems of interpretations via a ghost writer, or by implementing i written form an oral history. then add in the layer of interpretation that is translation from hebrew into latin. then the translation from latin into english under the command of King James, with all the possibilities for corruption that occurs.

as you can see, even if the original message was the literal word of god, the bible will have been corrupted and mutilated (intentionally or not) by the people that wrote or translated it. thus any attempt to discuss the ramifications for free will based on biblical examples is relatively futile. however the merits of the document can be appreciated if a sufficiently open-minded yet cynical reader absorbs it.

from a christian perspective, i personally feel that God granted us total free will, creating a universe where we can do things that it might not approve of, and set us free within it. god did not kill adam and eve for their betrayal, he banished them from the garden of eden. i then believe that purgatory is a social control tool, and upon death i will either pass into heaven, or be granted oblivion, in which case there is no difference from a atheistic point of view.

darkside

p.s. i should not that i am not a christian believer, but have been exposed to christian theology throughout my life, and have taken the time to study it personally, however, do not make the mistake of thinking me atheistic.

How can the Christian heaven be perfect when the first sin (Satan makes civil war with God) occured there?

I don’t understand how free will and "good deeds alone wont get you into Heaven", but repenting can. So a child molester who repents and asks for forgiveness is more likely to go to heaven than say Gandhi or the Dalai Lama who have chosen to live good, giving lives. I cant accept this part of Christianity.
you dont have to believe that.

you can believe anything that is covered by the apostles creed and be a good christian.


I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.



http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm

doesnt say anything in there about who gets to go to heaven, just that jesus will make the decision when the times comes. it doesnt even say that he will send anyone to hell.

seems to me that you are free to believe that your salvation is your own business and that god will judge the rest of humanity as he sees fit.

the entire of the new testament cannot be in any logical way the "literal word of god" as every passage is presaged by such titles as "the gospel of christ according to saint (insert name here)" and "letters from paul to the corinthians" and "the revelation of St john the divine". everything has come through at least 1 layer of interpretation. then add in the idea that the gospels were not written for several decades following christs death, meaning there is afair chance that the gospels were not written by their alledged authors, with the recurring problems of interpretations via a ghost writer, or by implementing i written form an oral history. then add in the layer of interpretation that is translation from hebrew into latin. then the translation from latin into english under the command of King James, with all the possibilities for corruption that occurs.

as you can see, even if the original message was the literal word of god, the bible will have been corrupted and mutilated (intentionally or not) by the people that wrote or translated it. thus any attempt to discuss the ramifications for free will based on biblical examples is relatively futile. however the merits of the document can be appreciated if a sufficiently open-minded yet cynical reader absorbs it.

These are all valid points from the human perspective, I will grant without equivocation.

However, it all depends on depth of faith. Are you (not you personally necessarily) strong enough in faith to believe that no mere human could truly alter the Word of God, or are you strongly rooted enough in the physical to believe that only what is touched and tangible is real?

The Bible in it's current form, and in every form that preceded, has it's truth. Even the most corrupted form whispers of the wisdom of the Lord. But it is only through prayer and communion with He, the Writer, the one who's very Word is Creation, that we may discover which is truth... and which is not.

No amount of debate resolves.

The written word of God is great, but the spoken word of God is greater.

(Even if psychologists want to lock you up for saying so.)

These are all valid points from the human perspective, I will grant without equivocation.

However, it all depends on depth of faith. Are you (not you personally necessarily) strong enough in faith to believe that no mere human could truly alter the Word of God, or are you strongly rooted enough in the physical to believe that only what is touched and tangible is real?

The Bible in it's current form, and in every form that preceded, has it's truth. Even the most corrupted form whispers of the wisdom of the Lord. But it is only through prayer and communion with He, the Writer, the one who's very Word is Creation, that we may discover which is truth... and which is not.

No amount of debate resolves.

The written word of God is great, but the spoken word of God is greater.

(Even if psychologists want to lock you up for saying so.)

i had to read and re-read this to quite understand what you were saying, now, i appreciate that my persepctive was human-centric, as i said, im not a christian believer. the rational-christian perspective could be as you have postulated, that the bible has been corrupted, but by communion with god can be truly understood. my problem is via the use of the bible as justification for acts on the basis of it being "literal".

darkside

http://www.carm.org/open/God_know.htm

A very good explaination of free will and God

What, another one of these? Seriously guys, get a life.:rolleyes:

It's traditional on NS General to post on the same subjects and argue them endlessly.

You know:

Belief in God
Guns
Communism
Socialism
The US and how evil it is
War in Iraq (or wherever the US is)
Why the Iranians aren't a threat to anyone
How bad Israel is
Abortion
How Bush Stole Everything
Why Conservatives are Evil