NationStates Jolt Archive

what do you think: should Palestine be freed, or continued to remain Zionist state called Israel?

Free Palestine dammit! The Palestinian people deserve their own nation, considering all the bullshit the "Israelis" have inflicted upon them!

what do you think: should Palestine be freed, or continued to remain Zionist state called Israel?
Two state solution, no right of return. That's the only way.

what do you think: should Palestine be freed, or continued to remain Zionist state called Israel?

Stop the Terrorism!

What do you think: should the arabs stop killing innocent civilians, or should they continue to blow themselves up in public squares without any concern over human life?

Free Palestine dammit! The Palestinian people deserve their own nation, considering all the bullshit the "Israelis" have inflicted upon them!
No thanks. I don't want any palestine even if it is free. Hell, you couldn't pay me to take palestine.

Two state solution, no right of return. That's the only way.

Israel has been trying to do this.....pullout of of certain areas and all.

But the arabs wont stop till they get Jerusalem and see to it that not one last Jew remains.

No thanks. I don't want any palestine even if it is free. Hell, you couldn't pay me to take palestine.

lol...pretty good stuff to get wasted though

Stop the Terrorism!

What do you think: should the arabs stop killing innocent civilians, or should they continue to blow themselves up in public squares without any concern over human life?
I think they should continue to blow themselves up in public squares, just not in public squares outside of their own communities.

Stop the Terrorism!

What do you think: should the arabs stop killing innocent civilians, or should they continue to blow themselves up in public squares without any concern over human life?

Should the Zionists back off, or continue to kill innocent Palestinian villagers with their rockets?

Hey, the Zionists used terrorism to get their own state, maybe they should quit bitching so much about the Palestinians.

lol...pretty good stuff to get wasted though
No it's not. It's a mess. Lousy culture full of brainwashed, murderous terrorists who can't stop whining that the international community owes them something.

Israel has been trying to do this.....pullout of of certain areas and all.

But the arabs wont stop till they get Jerusalem and see to it that not one last Jew remains.

Only a few radicals want that...whereas the Zionists, who control "Israel" want a complete Jewish state where all Arabs are good for is providing near-slave labor.

Should the Zionists back off, or continue to kill innocent Palestinian villagers with their rockets?
I say continue to kill and kill more efficiently as long as the palestinians dont' renounce terrorism.

No it's not. It's a mess. Lousy culture full of brainwashed, murderous terrorists who can't stop whining that the international community owes them something.

It does. The international community handed their land over to foreigners.

Hey, why don't we ask the Canaanites?

No it's not. It's a mess. Lousy culture full of brainwashed, murderous terrorists who can't stop whining that the international community owes them something.

That's like what...mayber 10 % of the Palestinians? Most of them just want their country back.

I think they should continue to blow themselves up in public squares, just not in public squares outside of their own communities.

Oh, God...this is GOLD.

DCD, I want to have your babies right in the middle of Oklahoma...so the Christian morality police cant watch us do it.

Israel has been trying to do this.....pullout of of certain areas and all.

But the arabs wont stop till they get Jerusalem and see to it that not one last Jew remains.
Yep. That's their legitimately elected government's official policy. And they wonder why people don't want to give them money.

I say continue to kill and kill more efficiently as long as the palestinians dont' renounce terrorism.

I say that the palestininans should keep blowing themselves up in public places until the israelis apologize for STEALING THEIR COUNTRY!

My problem with the "Free Palestine" camp is that they never address the fact that there are still Jewish people there and that both Jews and non-Jewish Palestinians have a right to live in the Holy Land. They did it for hundreds of years anyway.

And besides that, referring to "Palestine" sort of takes a partisan tone, don't you think?

That's like what...mayber 10 % of the Palestinians? Most of them just want their country back.
That's the official policy of the government that the majority of them elected, so I figure it's at least 51% of them.

I say that the palestininans should keep blowing themselves up in public places until the israelis apologize for STEALING THEIR COUNTRY!

Everyone needs to apologise to the Canaanites. Seriously. It's their land!

It does. The international community handed their land over to foreigners.

Hey, why don't we ask the Canaanites?

Mwhahaha there are NO Canaanites...the warrior Hebrew tribes destroyed their stupid civilization! :D

No thanks. I don't want any palestine even if it is free. Hell, you couldn't pay me to take palestine.


ROLFLMAO :D


You never know you may want a tree stump removed one day.

at any rate I may buy some palestine if they can solve the spontaneous explosion problem the people have over there ..rush hour is murder as it is .

I say that the palestininans should keep blowing themselves up in public places until the israelis apologize for STEALING THEIR COUNTRY!
Well then I say we just let them fight a war of genocide. Palestinians have the numbers, but airpower and cluster bombs will take care of that.

Everyone needs to apologise to the Canaanites. Seriously. It's their land!
Sure thing.

*picks up Ouija board*

Only a few radicals want that...whereas the Zionists, who control "Israel" want a complete Jewish state where all Arabs are good for is providing near-slave labor.

Arabs arnt even good for providng near slave labor...all they're good for is playing Polo on camels.

Well then I say we just let them fight a war of genocide. Palestinians have the numbers, but airpower and cluster bombs will take care of that.

The UN should organise mass-nuking of the area. Kill all of them. Both sides don't deserve the land. Let the Cornish have it.

Um... I'm going to abstain on this one. Let Israel remain Israel, and let the West Bank and Gaza become a free Palestine.

Free Paltestine? Woo hoo! How soon can it be shipped?!

Oh, and Israel should totally take over Palestine. And the rest of the Middle East. After the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Nazis, Stalinist Russians, etc. they deserve it.

Um... I'm going to abstain on this one. Let Israel remain Israel, and let the West Bank and Gaza become a free Palestine.

Thats what Israel has been trying to do.

I'd like to point out that there are plenty of Arab (Mizrahi) Jews, and that there were Palestinian Jews who were absorbed into the Israeli state. This isn't a black and white ethnic issue.

I say that the palestininans should keep blowing themselves up in public places until the israelis apologize for STEALING THEIR COUNTRY!

Fine...just dont complain when arabs are randomly selected for searches and harrasment.

Or sniping.


And by the way, are you advocating terrorism right there, fool?

Thats what Israel has been trying to do.

I said "let the West Bank and Gaza become a free Palestine," not "let Gaza and a cantonized West Bank become an exploited Israeli colony with nominal sovereignty."

Two state solution, no right of return. That's the only way.

I support right of return for those who were born within Israel's boundaries per the UN partition plan (if they still want to go back).

Hey, why don't we (Europeans and Americans) tell the Jewish community to come back, to their homes in our own countries, and give back the land we took away 50 years ago, what is now Israel, to the families that had owned it for centuries?

Er... Maybe not... I suppose our WWII leaders must have had a very good reason for not wanting the Jews back in their own yards? Religious hatred maybe, desguised as charity?

I support right of return for those who were born within Israel's boundaries per the UN partition plan (if they still want to go back).
I think right of return will be a deal breaker. It's not realistic. Israel doesn't want the demographics of their nation to change that radically.

Hey, why don't we (Europeans and Americans) tell the Jewish community to come back, to their homes in our own countries, and give back the land we took away 50 years ago, what is now Israel, to the families that had owned it for centuries?

Er... Maybe not... I suppose our WWII leaders must have had a very good reason for not wanting the Jews back in their own yards? Religious hatred maybe, desguised as charity?

How about no, Scott.

Jews are attached to that land and will not be giving it up any time soon.

Arabs are attached to that land too, but with enough rockets to the finger tips, they will eventually let go.

Peace through superior firepower.

Originally Posted by United O-Zone
I say that the palestininans should keep blowing themselves up in public places until the israelis apologize for STEALING THEIR COUNTRY!

This is a gold rated post if I ever have seen one !

Now being an American Capitist pig ..I say we at least pay them to blow up in areas we need some excavation for a dam or something...maybe do a huge pay per view TV show call it "The biggest blow out of all time ...they really BLOW their minds !! " or something ...I'd have to think on it but I am sure to come up with a nice ad ...or rent them out for tunnels..save a ton of money .

In fact just let them all explode at once and it may solve global warming issues by tilting the Earth a bit off its axis ..

Just stupid wastefull murder of civilians is really getting boring . We need to get motre BANG for the buck .

Just ask an Israeli who has changed his mind about Israel vs. Palestine in a way favorable to a Palestinian because of a suicide bombing...hmmm I cant find any..well who cares ...let me get some pop corn . The news is up .

1) Hamas should recognise the right of Isreal to exist, and call to a halt on attacks on civilian targets.

2)Isreal shuld stop the building of illegal settlements, and remove the ones there already.

3) Negotiations should start up again

4) And it should be finalised as a two state solution along the Green Line. As it should have been nearly 40 fucking years ago.

Oh, and if the two sides cant agree on Jerusalem, make it a UN administered open city. Neither sides control it. Or maybe a joint jurisdiction.

I said "let the West Bank and Gaza become a free Palestine," not "let Gaza and a cantonized West Bank become an exploited Israeli colony with nominal sovereignty."

Oh, jeez we have Mr. Perfectionist over here.

:p

Palestine...what Palestine? Oh you mean the one thats full of those "palestinians" -cough-slash syrians, slash egyptian, slash jordanian-cough- ya that palestine.

How about no, Scott.

Jews are attached to that land and will not be giving it up any time soon.

Arabs are attached to that land too, but with enough rockets to the finger tips, they will eventually let go.

Peace through superior firepower.

You do realise I was being sarcastic?

As to "peace through superior firepower", that will not last very long. The Arabs only need a couple of nuclear weapons to destroy Israel and fundamentalists do not fear nuclear retribution. It's only a matter of time...

tick-tack-tick-tack...

I think right of return will be a deal breaker. It's not realistic. Israel doesn't want the demographics of their nation to change that radically.

I am under the impression that the numbers are not that much to change the demographics drastically. I am talking about the actual refugees and not the people of Gaza and West Bank. Even then those who actually want to return would be a lesser percentage among those who can return, no?

You do realise I was being sarcastic?

As to "peace through superior firepower", that will not last very long. The Arabs only need a couple of nuclear weapons to destroy Israel and fundamentalists do not fear nuclear retribution. It's only a matter of time...

tick-tack-tick-tack...


Which is exactly why we cannot LET countries like Iran get nukes.

Also, its tick-tOck-tick-tOck...you fool. :p

I say we should give the Palestinians back their nation.

Which is exactly why we cannot LET countries like Iran get nukes.

Also, its tick-tOck-tick-tOck...you fool. :p

in Portugal (where I'm from) clocks make different sounds :p

Palestine...what Palestine? Oh you mean the one thats full of those "palestinians" -cough-slash syrians, slash egyptian, slash jordanian-cough- ya that palestine.

Erm... Palestinians are a completely seperate nationality to those. And the surrounding nations dont terribly look after them very well, as they dont want them foisted on them.

Just because they are arabs doesnt make them the same nationality, or are we going to claim all white people are british now?

Palestine should neither be Zionist or Arab! Return it to Christian rule!:mp5:
:sniper:

Oh, jeez we have Mr. Perfectionist over here.

:p

Perfectionist? Who said anything about perfection? Perfection would be the abolition of Israel and the PA and their replacement with a federation of free and egalitarian workers' associations. That, however, is not realistic at the present day; a serious two-state solution might well be, in five or ten years.

Of course, we could return the land to the states that had it snatched from them.

Dont worry Iran is working on solving thatproblem as we sit .


Wow ...mushroom clouds in the future...glad they taught me to duck and cover all those many years ago...and I though we were safe when the cold war ended .


Well at least I'll finally get to use something I learned in school .

Jerusalem should be made a independent zone under the jurisdiction of the United Nations, seeing as it is so harshly fought over.

The rest of the nation should be carved up into two equal pieces, one Palestine, one Israel.

I hope I don't get criticized too badly for this.

Cheers

Erm... Palestinians are a completely seperate nationality to those. And the surrounding nations dont terribly look after them very well, as they dont want them foisted on them.

Just because they are arabs doesnt make them the same nationality, or are we going to claim all white people are british now?
Well since there was never a nation called palestine, it was just a region in Trans-Jordan, your claim is like saying a Texan isn't an American.

Perfectionist? Who said anything about perfection? Perfection would be the abolition of Israel and the PA and their replacement with a federation of free and egalitarian workers' associations. That, however, is not realistic at the present day; a serious two-state solution might well be, in five or ten years.

*sweats*

*shakes*

*blinks*

SOCIALIST OVERLOAD.....SOCIALIST OVERLOAD

*Internally Combusts*

*dies*

seriously though people, as long as the US still has ties to Israel, Isreal will hold the land(at least part of it)- unless some meglomaniac decieds to use nukes on it

Russia is no longer Soviet and doesnt have to be pro Arab as it was in the Cold War, China really doesnt care, and no other country has the slightest chance of defeating the US in a war and living to talk about it;)

Which is exactly why we cannot LET countries like Iran get nukes.

Do we honestly believe we can stop Islamic nations FOREVER from having nuclear technology? You have to be very naive. Trying to stop them is a shot in the foot, because every time we do it they hate us even more. Eventually they'll get them. There is no way we can force Islamic Nations to live without nuclear science forever, unless we nuke the entire middle east, which I do not believe being in anyone's plans.... well, not overtly at least...

As a Christian Palestinian (and American citizen) I'd like to see a two state solution. But if given those two options I'd pick Zionism.

Anything that will check the power of islamic facism long enough for them to catch up to at least the 1800s is a good thing for the world.

*ducks*

As a Christian Palestinian (and American citizen) I'd like to see a two state solution. But if given those two options I'd pick Zionism.

Anything that will check the power of islamic facism long enough for them to catch up to at least the 1800s is a good thing for the world.

*ducks*
*hurls rocks at Somearea*

I am under the impression that the numbers are not that much to change the demographics drastically. I am talking about the actual refugees and not the people of Gaza and West Bank. Even then those who actually want to return would be a lesser percentage among those who can return, no?
The problem is that the UN makes special rules for Palestinian refugees. Their kids and grandkids and so on get refugee status. The UN doesn't grant that to any other refugee group. Now if those rules are used to determine right of return it could have a serious effect on demographics.

Do we honestly believe we can stop Islamic nations FOREVER from having nuclear technology? You have to be very naive. Trying to stop them is a shot in the foot, because every time we do it they hate us even more. Eventually they'll get them. There is no way we can force Islamic Nations to live without nuclear science forever, unless we nuke the entire middle east, which I do not believe being in anyone's plans.... well, not overtly at least...

Well, if you say we cannot nuke the arab countries, they you simply leave me no choice.

*calls up favor*

"Hey Rambo, ya, I'm gonna need you to take care of a couple people for me. You got enough ammo for this job? Wha, oh, sorry, of course you do."

Do we honestly believe we can stop Islamic nations FOREVER from having nuclear technology? You have to be very naive. Trying to stop them is a shot in the foot, because every time we do it they hate us even more. Eventually they'll get them. There is no way we can force Islamic Nations to live without nuclear science forever, unless we nuke the entire middle east, which I do not believe being in anyone's plans.... well, not overtly at least...

very true......however when they do, a new cold war will arise..and I hate to say it(actually i dont) but the US citizens can unite and overpower any nation financialy and/or militarily

Well, if you say we cannot nuke the arab countries, they you simply leave me no choice.

*calls up favor*

"Hey Rambo, ya, I'm gonna need you to take care of a couple people for me. You got enough ammo for this job? Wha, oh, sorry, of course you do."

nice:cool:

Do we honestly believe we can stop Islamic nations FOREVER from having nuclear technology? You have to be very naive. Trying to stop them is a shot in the foot, because every time we do it they hate us even more. Eventually they'll get them. There is no way we can force Islamic Nations to live without nuclear science forever, unless we nuke the entire middle east, which I do not believe being in anyone's plans.... well, not overtly at least...
Maybe the goal is to slow their development of nuclear techonology until their cultural development can at least bring them into our century.

Not even touching this thread with a barge pole.

*walks out door*

Do we honestly believe we can stop Islamic nations FOREVER from having nuclear technology?

Not forever, but possibly long enough. Certainly we should as long as we can.

It would be completely insane or criminally ignorant to not do anything and everything in our power to keep nukes out of the hands of Islamic nations as best we can for as long we can.

But yea, not forever. Something will do us in just as it has for 99.9% of all known species.

I'm gonna die someday, but I paid my power bill just in case it's not too soon.

Not even touching this thread with a barge pole.

*walks out door*
smart one

My new bumper sticker ;

The world needs an enema ! Support free nukes for all !


Its not like giving nukes to those that think being "dead for Allah as long as the infidels die also " . Is a bad thing .

And nuclear energy and nuclear WEAPONS are two different things...one can be a good thing ...the other cant .


countries with peacefull nuclear energy programs and NO NUKES do exist .

They actually allow inspections and cooperate with the NPT...

Cripes ...why do we bother.. Look the great comet is comming in two years to kill you so prepare yourself now by practicing suicide...dont stop until you get it right .

Makes about as much sense as spreading more nukes around .

Not forever, but possibly long enough. Certainly we should as long as we can.

It would be completely insane or criminally ignorant to not do anything and everything in our power to keep nukes out of the hands of Islamic nations as best we can for as long we can.

But yea, not forever. Something will do us in just as it has for 99.9% of all known species.

I'm gonna die someday, but I paid my power bill just in case it's not too soon.
however ther is somthing diff about humans...we can over come insticnt and survive

Nahh I miscalcculated ..the comet is comming on July 2cnd .

When the log rolls over we are all gonna die .

however ther is somthing diff about humans...we can over come insticnt and survive

Yea it seems it's a possibility we may have a long way to go but forever is a mighty long time.

In any case our chances are definately greater the longer we keep nukes out of the hands of the muslim nations. Certainly up to the point where they join modernity and even then they would need to advance to a point where they don't have to be labeled "muslim" but are nations who have secular governments that tollerate diversity and pluralism.

Not even touching this thread with a barge pole.

*walks out door*

Good call, think I'll do the same thing.

The problem is that the UN makes special rules for Palestinian refugees. Their kids and grandkids and so on get refugee status. The UN doesn't grant that to any other refugee group. Now if those rules are used to determine right of return it could have a serious effect on demographics.

Do you know or have any idea of the numbers involved.:)

I concede I am lazy to look up myself.:p

Do you know or have any idea of the numbers involved.:)

For Palestinian refugees? The statistic that comes to mind, give or take a few, is three million today, including their descendants. I have no idea how many of those were originally expelled.

Israel's population is something in the order of 6.5 million.

You know what the West should do?

To pay a HUGE apology for what we have been doing in the past decades, not to speak of centuries, and help the whole Middle East to erradicate the poverty we've helped impose on them for so long (replacing dictators with dictators and so on).

p.s. Obviously, starting with Palestine and Israel would mean to pressure Israel to retreat to the UN borders. Until then it's unfair to expect Palestinians to not be very pissed off. But this is obviously asking too much...

You know what the West should do?

To pay a HUGE apology for what we have been doing in the past decades, not to speak of centuries, and help the whole Middle East to erradicate the poverty we've helped impose on them for so long (replacing dictators with dictators and so on).

p.s. Obviously, starting with Palestine and Israel would mean to pressure Israel to retreat to the UN borders. Until then it's unfair to expect Palestinians to not be very pissed off.

When the Palestinians stop blowing people up I'll have more sympathy. Everytime they kill Israeli civilians they lose any possible support from the bleeding hearts. If they chose non-violent means of resistance against Israeli rule than it would be much more powerful and if the Israelis overreact then world opinion will quickly go to the Palestinians. But know, they use terrorists to push for their freedom. That will never work.

Of course if the Israelis choose never to help the Palestinains to get out of poverty or too stop blowing up Palestinian civilians along with terrorists it is hard to have sympathy for Israel either. It is easy for me to simply wash my hands of that area and just say "let them kill each other", but we should try to help reach a solution that all will agree too.

That's like what...mayber 10 % of the Palestinians? Most of them just want their country back.
More than 90% of Palestinians support suicide bombings aimed at civilians.

Hey, the Zionists used terrorism to get their own state, maybe they should quit bitching so much about the Palestinians.
That's a gross distortion of the facts, and it's totally irrelevent.

Erm... Palestinians are a completely seperate nationality to those. And the surrounding nations dont terribly look after them very well, as they dont want them foisted on them.

Just because they are arabs doesnt make them the same nationality, or are we going to claim all white people are british now?


No i am saying that many "palestinians" are not really from palestine. I am saying that there have been people moving there to do the whole jihad against israel thing. That comming from a palestinian buddy of mine.

The UN should organise mass-nuking of the area. Kill all of them. Both sides don't deserve the land. Let the Cornish have it.

The Cornish? Where the f*ck did that come from? Let the Irish who are still suffering under tyrranical British rule have it. Or give it to China.

You know what the West should do?

To pay a HUGE apology for what we have been doing in the past decades, not to speak of centuries, and help the whole Middle East to erradicate the poverty we've helped impose on them for so long (replacing dictators with dictators and so on).

Uh...no. The people responsible for the continuing poverty throughout the Middle East aren't "foreign imperialist dogs", it's the corrupt Arab leadership -- they've proven fully capable of imposing kleptocratic corruption all on their own.


p.s. Obviously, starting with Palestine and Israel would mean to pressure Israel to retreat to the UN borders. Until then it's unfair to expect Palestinians to not be very pissed off. But this is obviously asking too much...
The 1948 borders, you mean? Yeah, I don't bloody think so. ;)

More than 90% of Palestinians support suicide bombings aimed at civilians.

And 65% of Israeli Jews want the government to "encourage" Arab Israelis to leave. It's ridiculous, it's stupid, it's immoral - but human beings under pressure are like that.

More than 90% of Palestinians support suicide bombings aimed at civilians.


That's a gross distortion of the facts, and it's totally irrelevent.

90% i dont think so

Oh, so the Jews had the land 5,000 years ago so now it all belongs to them.

So, since the Romans had the entire Mediterranean, it all belongs to Italy, right?

If the Zionists want to live in Israel, they should accept the fact they live in a secular Palestinian state.

countries with peacefull nuclear energy programs and NO NUKES do exist ..
Yes, peaceful liberal democracies like Canada, the United States and Lithuania, not genocidal Arab terrorist states.

Yes, peaceful liberal democracies like Canada, the United States and Lithuania, not genocidal Arab terrorist states.

You're saying America has no nukes? hahahahahahaha ur so stupid

90% i dont think so

Oh, so the Jews had the land 5,000 years ago so now it all belongs to them.

So, since the Romans had the entire Mediterranean, it all belongs to Italy, right?

If the Zionists want to live in Israel, they should accept the fact they live in a secular Palestinian state.


or perhaps the palestinians need to quit whining. They are getting a pay back for what their arab brethern have done to oh say...the kurds?if the arabs want there to be a palestine, then I say they have to allow a kurdistan

Yes, peaceful liberal democracies like Canada, the United States and Lithuania, not genocidal Arab terrorist states.

The US doesn't have any nukes? And while I suppose it should be considered a liberal democracy, despite present stresses, it is hardly "peaceful."

Edit: What about the Soviet Union, or China? Hardly "peaceful liberal democracies" there.

Canada has no nukes and is far more civilized than the American barbarians who live south of the border. Long live Canada!

or perhaps the palestinians need to quit whining. They are getting a pay back for what their arab brethern have done to oh say...the kurds?if the arabs want there to be a palestine, then I say they have to allow a kurdistan

I have no problem with Kurdistan. While people are at it, America should give independence to Hawaii, Britain should let Northern Ireland merge with Ireland, and Turkey should let North Cyprus merge with Cyprus.

That's a gross distortion of the facts, and it's totally irrelevent.

Blowing up a hotel is legitimate?

90% i dont think so

So you think Palestinian lie about supporting terrorism in public opinion surveys?


If the Zionists want to live in Israel, they should accept the fact they live in a secular Palestinian state.
No, they live in the free, democratic and sovereign Jewish secular State of Israel -- and, God willing, they always will.

Actually, that came out wrong; the "they" part (and that's your fault for using the perjorative "the Zionists" to refer to Isrealis...apparently, Jew and Arab alike). I'm a Zionist, after all, a Christian Zionist, and I live in Canada.

Blowing up a hotel is legitimate?

Bombing villages with rockets and killing women and children is legitimate?

I have no problem with Kurdistan. While people are at it, America should give independence to Hawaii, Britain should let Northern Ireland merge with Ireland, and Turkey should let North Cyprus merge with Cyprus.


Fine by me.

Should the Zionists back off, or continue to kill innocent Palestinian villagers with their rockets?
They should stand up for their citizens, which unfortunately means some of this :sniper: , rather than just folding to the terrorist's will.

And they have been pulling back, where have you been for the past five years?

So you think Palestinian lie about supporting terrorism in public opinion surveys?


No, they live in the free, democratic and sovereign Jewish secular State of Israel -- and, God willing, they always will.

Actually, that came out wrong; the "they" part (and that's your fault for using the perjorative "the Zionists" to refer to Isrealis...apparently, Jew and Arab alike). I'm a Zionist, after all, a Christian Zionist, and I live in Canada.

"Jewish secular" state? do you listen to yourself? And how can a Canadian be such a zealot?

Canada has no nukes and is far more civilized than the American barbarians who live south of the border. Long live Canada!

We should invaded Canada again after the War of 1812. I think you would all be much happier as Americans.

Bombing villages with rockets and killing women and children is legitimate?
You act like the Terrorists haven't been doing the same thing to Israel.

Blowing up a hotel is legitimate?
Well, even that example points out a huge difference -- whereas the Jews who blew up the hotel in question warned its British occupants ahead of time -- even though the British were staunchly pro-Arab and supplied Arabs with weapons they used to massacre Jews -- whereas Arab terrorists intentionally murder as many Israeli civilians as they possibly can.

But again, what happened 60 years ago is totally irrelevent -- we have to deal in the here and now, and there's nothing acceptable, moral, legal or legitimate about Hamas and other terrorist death cults going around indescriminately murdering Israelis.

They should stand up for their citizens, which unfortunately means some of this :sniper: , rather than just folding to the terrorist's will.

And they have been pulling back, where have you been for the past five years?

In my little emo hole...just kidding

And as long as the Palestinians continue to fight for independence, it's going to mean a lot of this :sniper: , this:mp5: , and this:upyours: .

Israel should withdraw from the occupied parts of palestine. Once they have done that palestine should stop all violence against israel and accept its existence. But intil Israel withdraws they have no business moanding. if you are invading another country then they will fight back. its no use bitching and trying to talk peace while your troops still occupy the other country.

Bombing villages with rockets and killing women and children is legitimate?
No it's not, but Arab terrorists do it anyway, don't they?

"Jewish secular" state? do you listen to yourself? And how can a Canadian be such a zealot?
How do you fling a term like zealot around when you obviously are one. Unless you are congratulating him?

You act like the Terrorists haven't been doing the same thing to Israel.

They have. But didn't the Patriots attack Britigh freighters (trade vessels, think the Boston Tea Party an innocent bystander) during the American revolution?

You're saying America has no nukes? hahahahahahaha ur so stupid
My mistake, I forgot the second part of your sentence. Canada, Japan and Lithuania, then.

No, they live in the free, democratic and sovereign Jewish secular State of Israel -- and, God willing, they always will.

Israel is not secular; it has no separation of church and state. For instance, if you're a Jew wishing to marry another Jew and want to have a non-Orthodox marriage, or if you wish to intermarry with a member of another religion, you have to marry elsewhere in order to get legal recognition.

We should invaded Canada again after the War of 1812. I think you would all be much happier as Americans.

thats by far the smartest thing i Have ever seen you write! :D

They have. But didn't the Patriots attack Britigh freighters (trade vessels, think the Boston Tea Party an innocent bystander) during the American revolution?
Don't even begin to compare the two, they are different and you know it. Not only did we not blow up the tea, but it was freaking tea!!. Seriously dude, get some perspective.

Israel is not secular; it has no separation of church and state. .
And the British monarch is, by virtue of her position, also the head of the Church of England. Greek Orthodox Priests have the salaries paid for by Athens. Even Canada does not have, by law, an absolute seperation of church and state, but Israel, Britain, Greece and Canada are still considered secular countries.

When the Palestinians stop blowing people up I'll have more sympathy.

When they all stop blowing eachother, I'll have more hope of the innocent lives on both sides, because my sympathy is with them.

The problem with comments like these is that they are biased. Hundreds of civillians have died in Palestine. What's Israel excuse? The truth is there is none.

My point is, if you invade someone's land using weapons, they'll respond with the weapons they've got. People that use weapons have little contempt for life.

And how can a Canadian be such a zealot?
Believe it or not, I don't spend all of my time tapping maple syrup, chopping down trees, speaking two languages and waiting in line for "free" medical care.

And the British monarch is, by virtue of her position, also the head of the Church of England. Greek Orthodox Priests have the salaries paid for by Athens. Even Canada does not have, by law, an absolute seperation of church and state, but Israel, Britain, Greece and Canada are still considered secular countries.
Still, Israel would be on a completely different level, none of those countries were specifically set aside as a safe haven for a religion (though it hasn't proved all that safe so far). The closest example would be Britian, but they aren't as devoted to the same beliefs as you would find in Israel.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with having a non-secular state, just that Israel is one.

Believe it or not, I don't spend all of my time tapping maple syrup, chopping down trees, speaking two languages and waiting in line for "free" medical care.
Really?:eek:

Bloody surprise, eh? ;)

And the British monarch is, by virtue of her position, also the head of the Church of England. Greek Orthodox Priests have the salaries paid for by Athens. Even Canada does not have, by law, an absolute seperation of church and state, but Israel, Britain, Greece and Canada are still considered secular countries.

No country without civil marriage can be considered secular.

Bloody surprise, eh? ;)
And to think, I felt safe in my assumptions... this changes everything.

Still, Israel would be on a completely different level, none of those countries were specifically set aside as a safe haven for a religion (though it hasn't proved all that safe so far).

Aye, but there's the rub: the "Jewishness" the founders of Israel were concerned with was not strictly religious, not ethnic/national. For instance, Israel's immigration laws pay no attention to whether a person is a religiously observant Jew, but merely whether they are a Jew or not. That is, someone who was born to a Jewish mother but who does not observe the Sabbath, does not keep kosher, does not attend synagogue -- indeed, does not even believe in God -- is still considered Jewish for immigration purposes.

The closest example would be Britian, but they aren't as devoted to the same beliefs as you would find in Israel.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with having a non-secular state, just that Israel is one.
But even so, Israel certainly isn't a theocracy, and does not restrict any legal benefits to non-Jews. The Druze, who consider themselves a Muslim sect, serve with distinction in the Israeli Defense Forces, Mossad, and other elements of the Israeli Security Forces -- as do some mainline Muslims, as well as Christians. The democratic franchise is not restricted based on religion, nor the right to run for political office.

At the very least, Israel is a de facto (at least mostly) secular state.

To tell the truth, it would be difficult to have a pure theocracy. There would have to some sort of purge, in order to get rid of all the dissenters, and that would surely cause problems for the nation with the rest of the world.

P.S. Though, if you have oil, and don't care about killing off all the dissenters, it makes pulling it off a lot easier.

Aww...United O-Zone is offline :(

Palestine and Israel need to be separate countries, because the conflicts over religion and land are too hot not to have people shooting each other. The Palestinians have the right to their own country, and so do the Israelis, and both sides have been committing atrocities over the ground. Lest I offend anybody, this is my opinion, but religion creates more conflict than morality and comfort in too many parts of the world. Without ethnicism and religious intolerance, this conflict wouldn't really exist. However, as is, the only way to stop it is to separate the two groups with a border. Jerusalem will have to be common ground under heavy international security or something, as both sides claim it.

The separation of church and state would make virtually all middle eastern countries much less violent and extreme, but it probably won't happen..

I have no problem with Kurdistan. While people are at it, America should give independence to Hawaii, Britain should let Northern Ireland merge with Ireland, and Turkey should let North Cyprus merge with Cyprus.

Odd thing about that being that there are people who want to remain tied to us. Or shall we just ignore the minority and let the IRA massacre most of them in a bloody Civil War?

People don't realize that Palestine pretty much is it's own autonomous nation. It as the Palestinian Authority, the government of which Israel has allowed to remain in place even though they don't want Israel to exist. It's about the equivalent of the US electing Osama bin Laden as president and filling Congress with his supporters.The supposed damage caused by the Israeli presence in the Middle East is pretty much nonexistant. Honestly, I want to know why Israel shouldn't exist. The Palestinians deserve a nation, but Israel has already given so much, including the western half of Jerusalem, to the Palestinians.

People don't realize that Palestine pretty much is it's own autonomous nation. It as the Palestinian Authority, the government of which Israel has allowed to remain in place even though they don't want Israel to exist. It's about the equivalent of the US electing Osama bin Laden as president and filling Congress with his supporters.The supposed damage caused by the Israeli presence in the Middle East is pretty much nonexistant. Honestly, I want to know why Israel shouldn't exist. The Palestinians deserve a nation, but Israel has already given so much, including the western half of Jerusalem, to the Palestinians.

Damage caused by Israeli presence is caused by the other side mostly, but still, if they weren't there, the damage wouldn't be there either. Holy land is a horrible thing.

The ultra-Orthodox lobby DOES have too much influence in Israeli politics. That should change.

As for Jerusalem, any proposal to divide Jerusalem, or make it a UN-administered city, is pointless. The Israelis will NOT let Jerusalem be divided, and they will certainly not give it up to the UN.

Oh, and while I am a Zionist, I do think that the Irgun were terrorists.

The Israelis will NOT let Jerusalem be divided, and they will certainly not give it up to the UN.

Sure they will. The Geneva Accord called for Jerusalem's division, and if I recall correctly it had majority support among both Israelis and Palestinians.

Too bad Israel killed it.

The Israelis will NOT let Jerusalem be divided, and they will certainly not give it up to the UN.


That's the problem with religion. But it's the only way to stop the conflict.

Hell, they have given up parts of it. It was a part of the Oslo Accords, which the Palestinians chose to neglect. The Israelis fulfilled their parts of the agreement, making land concessions to the Palestinians. Yasser Arafat, however, did nothing for his own people or the peace process. Money given to him by the Israelis was not put back into social programs (that's why organizations like Hamas put so much into schools and the like), but into a private slush fund. The utter lack of accountability in the Palestinian Authority is disconcerting to me. In the event the Palestinians actually did what they claimed they would do, I would be much more open to the Palestinian cause.

If you really want to understand the situation, you have to see the whole process of the re-creation of Israel in the 20th century, without prejudice.

Until 1947, Israel didn't exist. "Israel" was History book content and memories told by of a spiritual minority. When Israel was created, its population was significantly composed by European nationals who had fled Nazi persecution. This caused land tensions which rose to riots between Arabs and Jews. The Nazis used this in their favour, throwing some wood into the fire.

At the end of a war, the Allied nations could have harboured the Jewish community. Obviously, this wasn't of someone's interest (Jewish, European or likely a bit of both). So then, the Arab population sees new borders being imposed by foreign powers. Thousands of Arabs were forced to leave their ancestral homes, which were bulldozed by the Jewish. They couldn't just live in peace and share the land; they had to possess it.

I hate to simplify things to a metaphor but how would you feel, if someone came to your house, which had been in the family for generations, with a court order saying it was no longer yours? This person claimed some ancestor owned this land thousands of years ago and the UN said: "OK".
How would you feel? Come on...

After this, the people who had been oppressed turned oppressors, invading bordering nations to conquer more land. I despise the use of violence so I don't go looking for it. The local population was pushed and pushed and pushed until they literally started exploding. Since they didn't have access to military targets (or these were too strong), they turned to civilians; the only weapon they had.

Mmm. I think a two-state solution is the only way out, and if the Hamas led government doesn't want to co-operate, retake the Gaza Strip. A group considered a terrorist organisation is running Palestine, that's not a step in the right direction...

Sure they will. The Geneva Accord called for Jerusalem's division, and if I recall correctly it had majority support among both Israelis and Palestinians.

Too bad Israel killed it.
No, the Arabs killed it when they invaded Israel back in 1948.

No, the Arabs killed it when they invaded Israel back in 1948.

Over fifty years before the Geneva Accord existed.

No, the Arabs killed it when they invaded Israel back in 1948.
And in 1967, and 72(?)etc. ...

And in 1967, and 72(?)etc. ...

Not in 1956, not in 1967, and not in 1982.

Both 1948 and 1973 could be construed - more the latter than the former - as attempts to contain Israeli imperialism and aggression.

Not in 1956, not in 1967, and not in 1982.

Both 1948 and 1973 could be construed - more the latter than the former - as attempts to contain Israeli imperialism and aggression.
How imperialist can you call a country that has never expanded its boundries 300 miles from its capital?

Not in 1956, not in 1967, and not in 1982.
Closing the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping in 1956 was an act of war against Israel; Jordan, Syria and Egypt were just days away from invading Israel in 1967.
Operation Peace for the Galilee was necessary to stop terrorists operating out of southern Lebanon, with the blessings of the Syrian and Lebanese governments.


Both 1948 and 1973 could be construed - more the latter than the former - as attempts to contain Israeli imperialism and aggression.
They could be -- assuming the person so doing is a freedom-hating imbecile.


Over fifty years before the Geneva Accord existed.
Exactly my point.

I doubt you're going to solve a 3000+ year old problem this way. Besides, my Cereal box didn't come with a "Free Palestine".

:)

Closing the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping in 1956 was an act of war against Israel;

If I recall correctly, there was no blockade of the Strait of Tiran in 1956.

Jordan, Syria and Egypt were just days away from invading Israel in 1967.

Jordan? Egypt maybe, but diplomatic initiatives were actually encountering some progress before Israel struck. The Soviets told Nasser quite clearly not to strike, and the fact that he did not intend to was proven by how horribly unprepared he was for the war.

Operation Peace for the Galilee was necessary to stop terrorists operating out of southern Lebanon, with the blessings of the Syrian and Lebanese governments.

"Operation Peace for the Galillee" is a ridiculously Orwellian name.

The border conflict between Israel and the PLO involved joint participation; the attack Israel claimed provoked the invasion was itself a response to Israeli provocations.

They could be -- assuming the person so doing is a freedom-hating imbecile.

In 1973, it is unlikely that Egypt and Syria intended to destroy Israel - they knew they had no capability of doing so. They attacked to embarass Israel, to recover the territories seized in 1967, and, in Egypt's case, to attain a resolution by force after peace offers in 1971 had been rebuffed.

In 1948, the Haganah had advanced beyond the UN Partition boundaries, and probably intended to stay. Most of the war was fought on territory that would have gone to the Palestinian state; that is telling.

Exactly my point.

That there is some time travel involved here?

In reference to the post above this one, you do not provide any clear evidence to refute the earlier point, except for the first quote box. After that it is assumption, or opinion, or irrelevant (Who cares what the name of the operation is, the previous poster was properly identifying it).
Does anyone have clear evidence as to whether or not the straight was blockaded or not? EDIT: Like an encyclopedia article or something

In reference to the post above this one, you do not provide any clear evidence to refute the earlier point, except for the first quote box. After that it is assumption, or opinion, or irrelevant (Who cares what the name of the operation is, the previous poster was properly identifying it).

"Assumption, opinion, or irrelevant"?

In 1967, Israel was just as ready to invade Egypt, Jordan, and Syria as the Arab countries were to invade Israel; this is obvious. The only question is whether the Israeli action was a legitimate pre-emptive strike or an act of aggression. I pointed out two things:

1. It is unlikely that the Arabs would have struck;
2. Diplomacy was working with some efficacy to dissolve the situation.

Both points address that issue directly.

I find it absurdly hypocritical that defenders of Israeli aggression talk about "terrorists" attacking Israel when Israel's so-called "reprisals" are as much a part of the conflict as the Palestinian attacks. They also, for what it's worth, tended to involve little more discrimination between military and civilian targets.

INO Valley accusing anyone holding a particular point of view of being a "freedom-hating imbecile" is hardly an argument; as such, I took it as an excuse to elaborate, and did so.

"Assumption, opinion, or irrelevant"?

In 1967, Israel was just as ready to invade Egypt, Jordan, and Syria as the Arab countries were to invade Israel; this is obvious. The only question is whether the Israeli action was a legitimate pre-emptive strike or an act of aggression. I pointed out two things:

1. It is unlikely that the Arabs would have struck;
2. Diplomacy was working with some efficacy to dissolve the situation.

Both points address that issue directly.

I find it absurdly hypocritical that defenders of Israeli aggression talk about "terrorists" attacking Israel when Israel's so-called "reprisals" are as much a part of the conflict as the Palestinian attacks. They also, for what it's worth, tended to involve little more discrimination between military and civilian targets.

INO Valley accusing anyone holding a particular point of view of being a "freedom-hating imbecile" is hardly an argument; as such, I took it as an excuse to elaborate, and did so.
K so this post addresses 1967, though your point is far from watertight. Now, there were a few other situations that you have not addressed. And don't keep spouting the same rhetoric, come with some real facts, please:p

"Jewish secular" state? do you listen to yourself? And how can a Canadian be such a zealot?
Jewish is an ethnicity as well as a religion, so yeah, a Jewish secular state is possible. BTW, was it you that brought up the idea of a Palestinian secular state? Secular? From the people who elected Hamas?

1. It is unlikely that the Arabs would have struck;

It is absolutely certain that they were but days away from doing so.

2. Diplomacy was working with some efficacy to dissolve the situation.

The countries in question didn't even recognize the existence of the sovereign State of Israel. :rolleyes:

Why should I give a hoot about the so-called Palestinians?
Are they my friends?
Have they ever doe anything for me?

For all I care, those Hamas-freaks can rot in Hell.

Why should I give a hoot about the so-called Palestinians?
Are they my friends?
Have they ever doe anything for me?

For all I care, those Hamas-freaks can rot in Hell.

The same goes for the Isrealis in my eyes.

Why should one group that's been there for thousands of years be forced out upon the whims of the British government?

If I recall correctly, there was no blockade of the Strait of Tiran in 1956.

You're right, Egypt did that -- illegally -- in May 1967. They blockaded Eilat and closed the Suez Canal to Israeli shipping in 1956.


Jordan? Egypt maybe, but diplomatic initiatives were actually encountering some progress before Israel struck. The Soviets told Nasser quite clearly not to strike, and the fact that he did not intend to was proven by how horribly unprepared he was for the war.

Nasser demanded U.N. peacekeepers be withdrawn from the border and moved troops to it.



"Operation Peace for the Galillee" is a ridiculously Orwellian name.

That's what it's called.


The border conflict between Israel and the PLO involved joint participation; the attack Israel claimed provoked the invasion was itself a response to Israeli provocations.

Which clearly justifies shelling Israeli villages. :rolleyes:



In 1948, the Haganah had advanced beyond the UN Partition boundaries, and probably intended to stay. Most of the war was fought on territory that would have gone to the Palestinian state; that is telling.

It's telling of how incompetent Israel's enemies have always been.


That there is some time travel involved here?
Claiming that Israel is at fault for refusing to give up to international control the city which has served as its capital for nearly six decades is rediculous, especially when the only reason it wasn't already under U.N. jurisdiction already was because of genocidal Arab intent.

I say continue to kill and kill more efficiently as long as the palestinians dont' renounce terrorism.
Who's the terrorist? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=I9FVL-EwIh8&search=%20rap%20palestine)

If you really want to understand the situation, you have to see the whole process of the re-creation of Israel in the 20th century, without prejudice.

Until 1947, Israel didn't exist. "Israel" was History book content and memories told by of a spiritual minority. When Israel was created, its population was significantly composed by European nationals who had fled Nazi persecution. This caused land tensions which rose to riots between Arabs and Jews. The Nazis used this in their favour, throwing some wood into the fire.

At the end of a war, the Allied nations could have harboured the Jewish community. Obviously, this wasn't of someone's interest (Jewish, European or likely a bit of both). So then, the Arab population sees new borders being imposed by foreign powers. Thousands of Arabs were forced to leave their ancestral homes, which were bulldozed by the Jewish. They couldn't just live in peace and share the land; they had to possess it.

I hate to simplify things to a metaphor but how would you feel, if someone came to your house, which had been in the family for generations, with a court order saying it was no longer yours? This person claimed some ancestor owned this land thousands of years ago and the UN said: "OK".
How would you feel? Come on...

After this, the people who had been oppressed turned oppressors, invading bordering nations to conquer more land. I despise the use of violence so I don't go looking for it. The local population was pushed and pushed and pushed until they literally started exploding. Since they didn't have access to military targets (or these were too strong), they turned to civilians; the only weapon they had.
Unprejudiced? Wow, let's just ignore the fact that the Arabs engaged in violence against the Jews living in Palestine at least as early as the 1920s in order to drive them out. The Palestinians started the war against Jews. The Jews won the war. Also let's just ignore the fact that Palestinians in general and the Mufti of Jerusalem in particular had ties with Hitler and worked to help him exterminate Jews. As I see it, the Palestinians are getting what they deserve.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/riots29.html

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/6-Mein%20Kampf_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm

Who's the terrorist? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=I9FVL-EwIh8&search=%20rap%20palestine)
The terrorists are the scum who deliberately target women and children.

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpalestineterrorism127691.html

The terrorists are the scum who deliberately target women and children.


So that would be both sides a lot of the time then?
I'm suprised at you DCD, stooping to this type of a thread on Israel/Palestine issue.

The thread title is 'Free Palestine!' for Pete's sake.

And innocent Palestinians have been killed as well. There is wrong on both side, but unfortunatley, as always, especially with such long lasting conflicts, neither side see that.

So that would be both sides a lot of the time then?
I'm suprised at you DCD, stooping to this type of a thread on Israel/Palestine issue.

The thread title is 'Free Palestine!' for Pete's sake.
Why are you surprised? I've never hidden the fact that I think most palestinians are terrorists and terrorist sympathizers and highly antisemitic. And I've never forgiven the fuckers for cheering and dancing in the streets on 9/11.

The same goes for the Isrealis in my eyes.

Why should one group that's been there for thousands of years be forced out upon the whims of the British government?

Their God-given land, innit?
( notion that can neither be objectively proved, nor disproved, I know )

Why are you surprised? I've never hidden the fact that I think most palestinians are terrorists and terrorist sympathizers and highly antisemitic. And I've never forgiven the fuckers for cheering and dancing in the streets on 9/11.

I was surprised that you revel in flinging mud like this in flamefest-type threads, surrounding by mind numbingly repetitive arguments.

Maybe I was wrong.

Who's the terrorist? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=I9FVL-EwIh8&search=%20rap%20palestine)That would actually be very meaningful if there were no terror attacks on Israelis.

Why are you surprised? I've never hidden the fact that I think most palestinians are terrorists and terrorist sympathizers and highly antisemitic. And I've never forgiven the fuckers for cheering and dancing in the streets on 9/11.You didn't hear that those videos were faked for the purpose of selling news?

You didn't hear that those videos were faked for the purpose of selling news?

So the Palestinians are 100% pro-west, and 100% against Al Qaeda, and 100% against any form of political islam?

Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders and stop killing Israelis and the Palestinians should stop blowing up Israelis.

There you go, the recipe for peace in the Middle East.

Will it happen? No. Should it happen? Yes.

EDIT: Regarding Palestine, 9/11 and radical Islam... well, what the hell do you expect? They've been shat on from a great height by Israel and the West for donkey's years, hell, since the 1920s in fact, and of course some are going to think it's a good thing that finally someone's bringing downtown Ram'allah to downtown New York. This doesn't invalidate the fact that they need their own country back.

You didn't hear that those videos were faked for the purpose of selling news?
No, they really weren't.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

That wasn't fake footage or old footage. They really did celebrate. Shit, I used to be sympathetic toward them. Now I don't care if they're exterminated.

So the Palestinians are 100% pro-west, and 100% against Al Qaeda, and 100% against any form of political islam?Where'd I say that. All I remember is seeing the shocked face of the woman that had been dancing only a moment before when she saw images of what happened.

Where'd I say that. All I remember is seeing the shocked face of the woman that had been dancing only a moment before when she saw images of what happened.

I ask it because it has become, to me, the key-issue.

For better or for worse ( and I'm sure it is for worse! ) the world is divided in 2 armed camps. And I don't see the need to ever wish the slightest good for anyone in the other camp.

No, they really weren't.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

That wasn't fake footage or old footage. They really did celebrate. Shit, I used to be sympathetic toward them. Now I don't care if they're exterminated.I didn't say it was fake, I said it was faked. Poor wording on my behalf perhaps, but what I meant was that the "dancing" in the streets was blown totally out of proportion and taken out of context.

I didn't say it was fake, I said it was faked. Poor wording on my behalf perhaps, but what I meant was that the "dancing" in the streets was blown totally out of proportion and taken out of context.


Either they thought 911 was just about the worst thing ever, or they were indifferent ( in which case we can be as indifferent as we please ), or they were in agreement ( in which we have enough reason to wish them harm ).

I didn't say it was fake, I said it was faked. Poor wording on my behalf perhaps, but what I meant was that the "dancing" in the streets was blown totally out of proportion and taken out of context.
What context? They hear that my countrymen have been killed and they take it as an excuse to party. Fuck them. I'm just glad that the international community is withholding funds from them. Now they can dance instead of eating. If I sound bitter and angry it's just because I am.

You should separate the two and deliberately call the muslim side "Israel" and the jewish side "Palestine". That'll be fun. =p

Either they thought 911 was just about the worst thing ever, or they were indifferent ( in which case we can be as indifferent as we please ), or they were in agreement ( in which we have enough reason to wish them harm ).

It really wasn't. Thanks for generalising the entire history of the planet into a comparison with 9/11 :rolleyes:

That's like what...mayber 10 % of the Palestinians? Most of them just want their country back.

Study history: Palestine was NEVER a country before 1948! The few years they were a country, they launched a genocidal attack for the sole purpose of wiping out a legitimate country set up by the International community through the U.N. Ever since then, the Palestinian authorities have refused to lift a finger to control the extremist factions who have killed thousands of innoncent civilians.

Until they do, there is no way a Palestinian state can be set up. :gundge:

Study history: Palestine was NEVER a country before 1948! The few years they were a country, they launched a genocidal attack for the sole purpose of wiping out a legitimate country set up by the International community through the U.N.
In 1948.

What context? They hear that my countrymen have been killed and they take it as an excuse to party. Fuck them. I'm just glad that the international community is withholding funds from them. Now they can dance instead of eating. If I sound bitter and angry it's just because I am.How about this context:
We saw images of Palestinians dancing in the streets after the news broke. It needs to be said that they were shameful images. It also needs to be said that the same three pictures were shown again and again, that correspondents on Arab news channels said they were isolated incidents and that the scale of the disaster had not yet become clear.

Next day nobody was dancing; the US consul-general in Jerusalem received a 12-inch stack of faxes and condolences from Palestinians and Palestinian organisations.
Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552381,00.html)

Their God-given land, innit?
( notion that can neither be objectively proved, nor disproved, I know )

*sighs*

So does that mean that if I start a religion that becomes popular, and I get persecuted, do I get rights to a holy land of some variety?

I'd like to have the USA as my holy land, please. And if anyone says that's stupid, I'll call them some kind of Nazi anti-Semite child-eating terrorist fundamentalist Muslim (or whoever was mean to me, followed by anti-Joite, followed by something that infers that they're horrible, followed by "terrorist", followed by whatever religion people don't like for whatever reason in the country I'm appealing to).

It's worked for the Isrealis fo the last sixty-odd years.

Oh and Disciples of the Word - that's an astonishing level of ignorance. HAMAS are in a truce with Isreal at the moment, and are trying to clamp down on people who are trying to attack Isreal.

How about this context:
Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552381,00.html)
Personally I think the next day nobody was dancing because they realized what America might do to them.

a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden This is from the snopes link I posted earlier. Also I've heard Hamas' opinions about Western civilization. I have no doubt that a majority of the Palestinians hate us but don't overtly act against us because they fear what might happen and because they've got their hands full with Israel.

*sighs*

So does that mean that if I start a religion that becomes popular, and I get persecuted, do I get rights to a holy land of some variety?

I'd like to have the USA as my holy land, please. And if anyone says that's stupid, I'll call them some kind of Nazi anti-Semite child-eating terrorist fundamentalist Muslim (or whoever was mean to me, followed by anti-Joite, followed by something that infers that they're horrible, followed by "terrorist", followed by whatever religion people don't like for whatever reason in the country I'm appealing to).

It's worked for the Isrealis fo the last sixty-odd years.

Oh and Disciples of the Word - that's an astonishing level of ignorance. HAMAS are in a truce with Isreal at the moment, and are trying to clamp down on people who are trying to attack Isreal.

Is that why they praised the last suicide bombing by Palestinian Islamic Jihad instead of denouncing it?

Personally I think the next day nobody was dancing because they realized what America might do to them.


Well DCD, you have your opinion, and then there are the facts.
*shrugs*

Well DCD, you have your opinion, and then there are the facts.
*shrugs*
correspondents on Arab news channels said they were isolated incidents and that the scale of the disaster had not yet become clear.

So I should be nice to them because they thought they were celebrating only a few hundred Amercans being killed rather than 3,000? Nope. I still think that they're scum. They just realized that such celebrations made them look bad and might hurt them politically and economically so they cut it out. I have no doubt that they still remember 9/11 as a happy day.

Personally I think the next day nobody was dancing because they realized what America might do to them. And you believe that?
This is from the snopes link I posted earlier. Also I've heard Hamas' opinions about Western civilization. I have no doubt that a majority of the Palestinians hate us but don't overtly act against us because they fear what might happen and because they've got their hands full with Israel.From the article I posted
Later, a correspondent in Jerusalem for the Today radio programme reported with surprise that people seemed able to make a distinction between the American people and their bereavement and the American state that had suffered a "deserved" blow. People in the Middle East have learned to make an automatic distinction between the state and the people.They don't hate "us" they hate "America". They don't hate "Americans", they hate the government that has been supporting the people they believe have been unjustly oppressing them.

Note how your snopes article mentions one Palestinian that said so. If I can find you one American who believes that America and its people deserved 9/11, would that make you worthy of starving too?

Added for relevance: The Mid East quartett is going to start funding the Palestinians again, only they're looking for ways to get it around the Hamas-led government and directly give the funds to aid organizations.

So I should be nice to them because they thought they were celebrating only a few hundred Amercans being killed rather than 3,000? Nope. I still think that they're scum. They just realized that such celebrations made them look bad and might hurt them politically and economically so they cut it out. I have no doubt that they still remember 9/11 as a happy day.

"Hey, the greatest friend of our greatest enemy and oppressor has been attacked!"

"YAY! What happened?"

"Dunno, yet. News is still sketchy....."

No DCD, I don't blame them. Such situations have happened before.

I don't blame people for changing their opinions when the full story is revealed. You do.

To be honest, if I was a Palestinian, and I'd spent the last 19 years of my life (my whole life, in other words) under occupation by an army and state which doesn't hesitate to shoot kids and aid workers, which is propped up by the US, I'd cheer if I thought someone had blown up something in the US and given you lot a taste of what's been happening to us.

EDIT: What Psychotic Mongoose said.

Oh, and if there's never been a Palestine, why does my Grandad have a medal saying: "PALESTINE" on it, stamped 1946? :confused: And why was the Arab Revolt in 1930's in PALESTINE? Etc. And why do pre-1948 maps have this bit of land with 'PALESTINE' written on them?

I used to be sympathetic toward them. Now I don't care if they're exterminated.

Now while I take generally neutral stance on this whole issue I find this very odd.

So, you can understand them while Isreali civilians are dying, but celebrating Americans dying is beyond the pale?

correspondents on Arab news channels said they were isolated incidents and that the scale of the disaster had not yet become clear.
So I should be nice to them because they thought they were celebrating only a few hundred Amercans being killed rather than 3,000? Nope. I still think that they're scum. They just realized that such celebrations made them look bad and might hurt them politically and economically so they cut it out. I have no doubt that they still remember 9/11 as a happy day.
correspondents on Arab news channels said they were isolated incidents and that the scale of the disaster had not yet become clear.Reads different when you bold different parts, doesn't it?

Oh, and if there's never been a Palestine, why does my Grandad have a medal saying: "PALESTINE" on it, stamped 1946? :confused: And why was the Arab Revolt in 1930's in PALESTINE? Etc. And why do pre-1948 maps have this bit of land with 'PALESTINE' written on them?This medal has "Gallipoli" written on it. Does that make Gallipoli a country?
http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/sands_O_gallip/s_o_g_medal.jpg

Reads different when you bold different parts, doesn't it?

Yup. However, it's not surprising that there was celebration. This is like saying that the people who cheered when Hangman Heydrich was assassinated were committing some heinous act.

When your oppressors get attacked, you're going to go: YAY

The fact that it was only isolated incidents is, I think, more important than the fact that there was celebration.

Regardless, this does not change the fact that Palestine should be free.

EDIT:

Gallipoli medal, no, true. But the Palestine medal is for fighting Jewish terrorists in Palestine the country. The one Britain ruled under League of Nations mandate after WWI.

Furthermore, lots of countries that exist now are new countries - most of the African ones, for example - they were tribal kingdoms, then subjects of Empire, then independant nations.

Palestine has been a country for a long time. Palestine, just as Israel does, has a right to exist.

<snip>

Oh, and if there's never been a Palestine, why does my Grandad have a medal saying: "PALESTINE" on it, stamped 1946? :confused: And why was the Arab Revolt in 1930's in PALESTINE? Etc. And why do pre-1948 maps have this bit of land with 'PALESTINE' written on them?
Because palestine was the name of a region. Nobody disputes that, but it wasn't a nation with a separate culture or anything. In fact, it was part of Trans-Jordan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transjordan

Nobody argues that that part of the world wasn't called Palestine, just that it was never an independent or sovereign nation. So called Palestinians are just Jordanians who've been abandoned by their government to live in refugee camps.

DCD, see my edit in my above post.

EDIT: To clarify my point: Trans-Jordan was part of the Ottoman Empire. Thus, when the Ottoman Empire fell and Palestine was given to the British to rule under LoN mandate, it became a country.

Palestine's got just as much of a right to exist as Israel does, if not more, as its claim is based on the fact that it was once an independant nation and isn't "a gift from god."

Now while I take generally neutral stance on this whole issue I find this very odd.

So, you can understand them while Isreali civilians are dying, but celebrating Americans dying is beyond the pale?
I understand that Israel has done some unfair and cruel things to the Palestinians, and the Palestinians have doen alot of cruel things to the Israelis. I supported the idea of rolling back settlements and giving Palestinians more land and water rights to help form a more stable nation. Now I don't give a shit. I consider them enemies.

Erm... your wrong:

The Emirate of Transjordan was an autonomous political division of the British Mandate of Palestine, created as an administrative entity in April 1921 before the Mandate came into effect. It was geographically equivalent to today's Kingdom of Jordan, and remained under the nominal auspices of the League of Nations, until its independence in 1946.

"Transjordan" was a word coined to express the idea that the lands so described were "across the Jordan", i.e. on the far (eastern) side of the Jordan River. On the western side of the Jordan River was Palestine which contained many places of historical and religious significance to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Look at links you post. Palestine was not part of Transjordan, it was next to it. It was a subdivision of the Palestinian mandate.

Split them up... give Israel ancient Israel (or Israel and Judah) -- or most of it anyway -- and make a Palestinian state of the rest.

nice vague answer. hehe

Thank you, Peveski!

I understand that Israel has done some unfair and cruel things to the Palestinians, and the Palestinians have doen alot of cruel things to the Israelis. I supported the idea of rolling back settlements and giving Palestinians more land and water rights to help form a more stable nation. Now I don't give a shit. I consider them enemies.

They hate freeodom so much...

Bah!

all they want is some stinking freedom for themselves and maybe some self determination...

Bah!

freedom hating scum.....

I understand that Israel has done some unfair and cruel things to the Palestinians, and the Palestinians have doen alot of cruel things to the Israelis. I supported the idea of rolling back settlements and giving Palestinians more land and water rights to help form a more stable nation. Now I don't give a shit. I consider them enemies.

Yet, as far as they are concerned, America could be regarded as an enemy of Palestine, almost as much as Isreal is.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Evacuate all residents, then nuke the entire region. Use dirty bombs so that it is completely unlivable for at least a few thousand years. Let the petulant little children go squabble over some other patch of land for a while.

Split them up... give Israel ancient Israel (or Israel and Judah) -- or most of it anyway -- and make a Palestinian state of the rest.

nice vague answer. hehe
Depends on whom you ask:
http://www.nogw.com/images/greater_israel.gif

About Hamas clamping down, and all such things; unless you have been to Israel and spent a fair amount of time there or live there, you cannot know what Hamas is doing in practice, what they actually think, and what their agenda is. Ditto for the Israelis.

The Israelis have proven that they can defend the Holy Land. They can hold it. It has one of the best (if not THE best) military in the world, and as far as I know its government is exceptional as well. Other Arab states have yet to prove that they are better rulers than the Israelis. As far as I'm concerned, Palestine/Israel belongs to the Israelis. If you dispute the UN's right to give that land to the Israeli, you also dispute the legitimate existence of Poland between the world wars. International organizations DO have the power to give land to others and establish borders. I don't think it's a GOOD idea to arbitrarily divide up land, but it does happen, and it's perfectly legal.

The Warmaster:

The UN has given Israel to Israel, to the borders it had in 1967.

It's currently breaking international law by remaining outside the 1967 borders.

Erm... your wrong:



Look at links you post. Palestine was not part of Transjordan, it was next to it. It was a subdivision of the Palestinian mandate.
My bad.

http://i1.tinypic.com/xpoflt.jpg

Still, Jordanians are just palestinians who've abandoned some of their countrymen to live in refugee camps. So there is a Palestinian state, it's just called Jordan and it's already bigger than Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

About Hamas clamping down, and all such things; unless you have been to Israel and spent a fair amount of time there or live there, you cannot know what Hamas is doing in practice, what they actually think, and what their agenda is. Ditto for the Israelis.

The Israelis have proven that they can defend the Holy Land. They can hold it. It has one of the best (if not THE best) military in the world, and as far as I know its government is exceptional as well. Other Arab states have yet to prove that they are better rulers than the Israelis. As far as I'm concerned, Palestine/Israel belongs to the Israelis. If you dispute the UN's right to give that land to the Israeli, you also dispute the legitimate existence of Poland between the world wars. International organizations DO have the power to give land to others and establish borders. I don't think it's a GOOD idea to arbitrarily divide up land, but it does happen, and it's perfectly legal.

But what the UN gave the Isreali's is not the whole of Palestine. The Best Bank and the Gaza strip are areas where isreal have no legal claim over.

Free Palestine? I'll take it!

I don't know if anybody beat me to this, but it felt like the right thing to say.

Yet, as far as they are concerned, America could be regarded as an enemy of Palestine, almost as much as Isreal is.
Well, I'm no Christian and am not required to love my enemies.

Stop the Terrorism!

What do you think: should the arabs stop killing innocent civilians, or should they continue to blow themselves up in public squares without any concern over human life?

Oh gee yeah lets all blame palestine.

Lets see here...Zionists take land thats not theirs, by force, without consent...
Zionist shut off main thoroughfares to palestine, cutting off trade routes, essentially starving the palestinians.
Israelis literally stone, STONE, palestinian children going to school...

Yet when a palestinian blows himself up in a market in Israel its an atrocity? Give me a fucking break.

Oh gee yeah lets all blame palestine.

Lets see here...Zionists take land thats not theirs, by force, without consent...
Zionist shut off main thoroughfares to palestine, cutting off trade routes, essentially starving the palestinians.
Israelis literally stone, STONE, palestinian children going to school...

Yet when a palestinian blows himself up in a market in Israel its an atrocity? Give me a fucking break.I find it interesting that Israel is capable of stopping its radicals from occupying the settlements that were being abandoned, though...

I really think you can play the "who had it first" game forever... and I honestly don't think there ever will be peace in that area of the world, though I'd like to see them prove me wrong.

My solution would be to deport EVERYONE living there to the Australian Outback or the middle of the Sahara, and let them duke it out, and whoever comes out can live there like normal people. Maybe they'd realise that their racial differences were less important than their human similarities, and try to make a go of it together.

Then we can occupy the entire place with Chinese, or Indians, or people from some seriously over-populated area, or some oppressed area of Africa where some warlord is starving them to death through no fault of their own. Not that I think there'd be peace even then, but hey, at least it'd be a nice change of pace.

Still, Jordanians are just palestinians who've abandoned some of their countrymen to live in refugee camps. So there is a Palestinian state, it's just called Jordan and it's already bigger than Israel.



When such a traumatic event occurs to a person (or in this case- events to a people), that it irrevocably changes their psyche, their culture, their history to what they were previously to said trauma, is it not fair to say that they are now different to what they were before?

Are the Palestinians of today not different from Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians- purely because their histories have diverged so much, their culture has changed, their outlook/perspective on life has changed?

In 1948 they might have been the same people- today? No.

Maybe zionest people may remember that their fathers used terrorsim too to create their own country : ISrael. I'm sure that when israelian pressure and invasion into the indepent teritories will stop,an when Palestinians will have their own country too, no one will explose any more bombs into Jewish markets. Don't you think there is enough dead people for this small part of world?:sniper: :mp5:

Maybe zionest people may remember that their fathers used terrorsim too to create their own country : ISrael. I'm sure that when israelian pressure and invasion into the indepent teritories will stop,an when Palestinians will have their own country too, no one will explose any more bombs into Jewish markets. Don't you think there is enough dead people for this small part of world?:sniper: :mp5:

Brilliant first post. Did you even read the thread?

Palestine should neither be Zionist or Arab! Return it to Christian rule!:mp5:
:sniper:

Uhhh...no. Palestine should become a secular nation where Jews, Arabs, and anyone else can live in harmony,

Uhhh...no. Palestine should become a secular nation where Jews, Arabs, and anyone else can live in harmony,

Well, that would be the ideal... but there is too much hate and bitterness on both sides to allow them to live together.

So a viable two state solution should be the option used.

Though, yes, both states should be secular.

Until 1947, Israel didn't exist.

Nor did Palestine. It was Ottoman territory till after WWI, and then the Balfour Declaration of 1917 guaranteed the creation of a Jewish homeland.


After this, the people who had been oppressed turned oppressors, invading bordering nations to conquer more land. I despise the use of violence so I don't go looking for it. The local population was pushed and pushed and pushed until they literally started exploding. Since they didn't have access to military targets (or these were too strong), they turned to civilians; the only weapon they had.

And this is my biggest problem with arguments for Palestinian independence. There are those who act as though the Palestinians have done nothing wrong. The Israelis have never chosen to voluntarily attack civilians. This is where the two differ. Organizations such as the PLO or the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade indiscriminately choose those to kill, whether they be Israeli soldiers at a roadblock or a cafe in Jerusaelm.

This is where the freedom fighting with the PLO differed from the US independence movement. Those in the US didn't kill civilians. Even during the Boston Tea Party, they fixed a broken lock on the ship they boarded and swept the deck clean. It was civil disobedience, but you didn't see colonists killing Tories.

The sacrifices made by the Israelis in the name of a Palestinian state are too great to ignore. The Israelis employ 55,000 Palestinians; the total sum of money donated to the corrupt Palestinian Authority by the Israelis numbered at $1.5 billion in Israeli tax dollars... in 1994. That was 12 years ago. They never even cut funding when the second intafadah was declared. Israel invests an enormous amount of money into the Palestinian infrastructure. This money was given to a government that did nothing to stop terrorism in Israel/Palestine, even though they were bound to by the Oslo Accords. Israel fulfilled their end of the bargain; Palestine now has to step up to the plate.

Don't get me wrong; I am in full support of a Palestinian state. They deserve one just like Israel does. However, I in no way condone the acts of terror endorsed by the current ruling Palestinian Authority. It's been this way since Arafat was in power, and it needs to change.

It is absolutely certain that they were but days away from doing so.

I see that you have no argument. Okay.

The countries in question didn't even recognize the existence of the sovereign State of Israel. :rolleyes:

Irrelevant. They were perfectly willing to negotiate, and did so.

I think the Jews should all come back to Germany. They're not having enough children there, and no one is of good enough mood to kick the country in the butt and make it move again.
It would also help both sides settle their scores with history. And the Jews would get to live in a place without sand and dust everywhere.

Nasser demanded U.N. peacekeepers be withdrawn from the border and moved troops to it.

Yes, there were tensions. You are missing the point. There were diplomatic efforts going on; Israel interrupted them by striking first. In order for it to be a legitimate pre-emptive strike, it would have to be pre-empting an actual strike, not a potential strike if negotiations broke down.

That's what it's called.

By Israeli propaganda.

Which clearly justifies shelling Israeli villages. :rolleyes:

No, it doesn't. Did I say it did?

Would you have supported a PLO invasion of Israel in response to the Israeli attacks, one that killed, say, twenty thousand people and ended in an eighteen-year occupation of northern Israel?

It's telling of how incompetent Israel's enemies have always been.

True, most of the Arab countries had little interest in that war, and coordination was minimal. The biggest losers were the Palestinians, crushed by Israel and betrayed by Jordan.

That is one of many reasons that the oft-repeated argument that Israel was in a desperate struggle for its survival doesn't hold all that much water.

Claiming that Israel is at fault for refusing to give up to international control the city which has served as its capital for nearly six decades is rediculous, especially when the only reason it wasn't already under U.N. jurisdiction already was because of genocidal Arab intent.

The Geneva Accord did not advocate that Israel give up Jerusalem to international control. It advocated the transference of East Jerusalem, minus the Jewish Quarter, to Palestinian sovereignty.

Nor did Palestine. It was Ottoman territory till after WWI, and then the Balfour Declaration of 1917 guaranteed the creation of a Jewish homeland.



And this is my biggest problem with arguments for Palestinian independence. There are those who act as though the Palestinians have done nothing wrong. The Israelis have never chosen to voluntarily attack civilians. This is where the two differ. Organizations such as the PLO or the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade indiscriminately choose those to kill, whether they be Israeli soldiers at a roadblock or a cafe in Jerusaelm.

This is where the freedom fighting with the PLO differed from the US independence movement. Those in the US didn't kill civilians. Even during the Boston Tea Party, they fixed a broken lock on the ship they boarded and swept the deck clean. It was civil disobedience, but you didn't see colonists killing Tories.

The sacrifices made by the Israelis in the name of a Palestinian state are too great to ignore. The Israelis employ 55,000 Palestinians; the total sum of money donated to the corrupt Palestinian Authority by the Israelis numbered at $1.5 billion in Israeli tax dollars... in 1994. That was 12 years ago. They never even cut funding when the second intafadah was declared. Israel invests an enormous amount of money into the Palestinian infrastructure. This money was given to a government that did nothing to stop terrorism in Israel/Palestine, even though they were bound to by the Oslo Accords. Israel fulfilled their end of the bargain; Palestine now has to step up to the plate.

Don't get me wrong; I am in full support of a Palestinian state. They deserve one just like Israel does. However, I in no way condone the acts of terror endorsed by the current ruling Palestinian Authority. It's been this way since Arafat was in power, and it needs to change.

Have you read Stupid White Men? Really good point on Israel situation.

Of course the Palestinians will kill Israelis! When people are mercilessly abused and oppresed, they'll fihgt back! Israel did kill innocent little Palestinian girls first, and the Nation of Israel actually supports terrorism against the Palestinians!

If you're calling the Palestinians terrorrists, you're calling organizations like the African National Congress terrorists too.

Free Palestine dammit! The Palestinian people deserve their own nation, considering all the bullshit the "Israelis" have inflicted upon them!
amen, long live Palestine. Death to Israel!

And this is my biggest problem with arguments for Palestinian independence. There are those who act as though the Palestinians have done nothing wrong.

Well, I stand firmly on the "Both sides are in the wrong" camp. I have never thought Palestinians have never done anything wrong. Killing civilians is wrong. Noone can deny it... oh, well, some might try.

Even so, I can understand why stuff happens on both sides. But people need to understand that "understanding" and "condoning" are not the same thing. That foo fa with Cherie Blair and that Lib Dem MP talking about suicide bombing was totally overblown. They said they understood why what happened happened, not that they thought it was ok. You can understand people you hate, or at least dont agree with. Wish people would get that idea into their head.


Oh, and I am not suggesting you dont realise that... I just got sidetracked into a bit of a rant on the way.

No it's not. It's a mess. Lousy culture full of brainwashed, murderous terrorists who can't stop whining that the international community owes them something.

Bit harsh. Not all Americans take the "if it wasnt for us, you people...." line....


I say continue to kill and kill more efficiently as long as the palestinians dont' renounce terrorism..

But why should they "renounce terrorism" when the peaceful route, via UN sanctions, is blocked by the US,and Israel continues to occupy the area and build settlements? They have a right to resist and seek self determination.


Mwhahaha there are NO Canaanites...the warrior Hebrew tribes destroyed their stupid civilization!

According to the Bible. Archeaology shows no fortification of communities that could be expected from such internicine warfare, or destruction. The real mystery is why such a myth evolved in the absence of such conflict, to be enshrined in the central beliefs of the religon.


Arabs arnt even good for providng near slave labor...all they're good for is playing Polo on camels.!

Does your dripping froth affect the working life of your keyboard?


Fine...just dont complain when arabs are randomly selected for searches and harrasment.

Or sniping..!

Whats far funnier than your remark is the way you kick up when we present real examples of of Israeli killings by sniper.

Arabs are attached to that land too, but with enough rockets to the finger tips, they will eventually let go.
Peace through superior firepower...!

Likewise the way you deny ethnic cleansing when its brought up, but here its all go as far as you're concerned.


Just stupid wastefull murder of civilians is really getting boring . ...!

As Palestinian civillian deaths outnumber Israeli nearly 4 to 1 and children by 750+ to 113 I'd say thats plenty of "bang for the buck".


The problem is that the UN makes special rules for Palestinian refugees. Their kids and grandkids and so on get refugee status. ...

No, thats not a problem. The problem is the near 40 year occupation. The difficulty with the UN is that it prevents America from throwing a cover over the Palestinians and letting the world forget about them.


If they chose non-violent means of resistance against Israeli rule than it would be much more powerful and if the Israelis overreact then world opinion will quickly go to the Palestinians....

Rather unfortunately no. The only thing peaceful protest will get you in the occupied territories is one through the head. No western Journalist who was at the following saw armed groups. No arms were found in the aftermath.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3728681.stm

Tom Hurndall was also unarmed, but when the Israeli government wanted to "send a message" to NGO's, that didnt stop them there either.


That's a gross distortion of the facts, and it's totally irrelevent.....

The "stern gang" or the Irgun wouldn't be described as Terrorists? And its entirely relevant as it shows yesterdays "terrorists" are todays statesmen.



if the arabs want there to be a palestine, then I say they have to allow a kurdistan
.....

The biggest barrier to a Kurdish state is Turkey, and they arent Arabs.


even though the British were staunchly pro-Arab and supplied Arabs with weapons they used to massacre Jews -...whereas Arab terrorists intentionally murder as many Israeli civilians as they possibly can.
..

The british used Jewish auxillary units against the Arabs during the Arab revolt, and disarmed the Arab population in the Aftermath. I suggest you're entirely wrong.

So if the Arabs are out to kill as many civillians as possible, why are the Israelis so well ahead in the "killing civillian" stakes?


The Palestinians deserve a nation, but Israel has already given so much, including the western half of Jerusalem, to the Palestinians...

No they havent given either half, (and the Arab half is the East.)


Unprejudiced? Wow, let's just ignore the fact that the Arabs engaged in violence against the Jews living in Palestine at least as early as the 1920s in order to drive them out. The Palestinians started the war against Jews. The Jews won the war. Also let's just ignore the fact that Palestinians in general and the Mufti of Jerusalem in particular had ties with Hitler and worked to help him exterminate Jews. As I see it, the Palestinians are getting what they deserve....

The Palestinians rioted against the increased immigration which they thought would end with them being driven from their homes. I WONDER WHY THEY THOUGHT THAT.....

The Grand Mufti is the Arab equivalent of Ronnie Raygun. An idiot who will be thrown at his people for centuries to come.


The terrorists are the scum who deliberately target women and children.

If you were to be fair there you'd have linked to an incident that involved Israelis targeting civillians too. Obviously that involves a level of thinking far too complicated and with too many shades of grey for you.


And I've never forgiven the fuckers for cheering and dancing in the streets on 9/11..

I'd say there was a few cold ones cracked open in South-East Asia too.....Why do you think that some did what they did?


What context? They hear that my countrymen have been killed and they take it as an excuse to party. Fuck them...

That tiny sound you hear is a nano-violin playing just for you.


So called Palestinians are just Jordanians who've been abandoned by their government to live in refugee camps....

Yet every Government recognises that they are not Jordanians....including the US.


They hate freeodom so much... ....

And the "American way of life", never forget.

When the Palestinians stop blowing people up I'll have more sympathy. Everytime they kill Israeli civilians they lose any possible support from the bleeding hearts. If they chose non-violent means of resistance against Israeli rule than it would be much more powerful and if the Israelis overreact then world opinion will quickly go to the Palestinians.

Exactly.

I was sympathetic with the Palestinians (MY OWN PEOPLE) untill I saw them danceing in the streets after 9/11. Arafat smartly ordered a stop to it but the damage was done.

What a bunch of idiots. They don't realize that their fate is in the hands of the west? They need to make sure our TV screens are filled with hallmark moments...not seeing the blood of civilians trying to have a drink in a cafe or riding a bus to work.

The worst one I heard of is some asshole blew up an israeli girl's 5 year birthday party (i think it's something special for jews, forgot what it's called)...as if that's not bad enough when the family is burrying their loved ones they attacked the funeral killing more. Sick.

You know the Israelis have done very bad shit...but to kill 100 civilians via colateral damage even with the most irresponsible mission planning doesn't touch the evil of purposefully trageting a little girl's birthday celebration.

Exactly.

I was sympathetic with the Palestinians (MY OWN PEOPLE) untill I saw them danceing in the streets after 9/11. Arafat smartly ordered a stop to it but the damage was done.

What a bunch of idiots. They don't realize that their fate is in the hands of the west? They need to make sure our TV screens are filled with hallmark moments...not seeing the blood of civilians trying to have a drink in a cafe or riding a bus to work.

The worst one I heard of is some asshole blew up an israeli girl's 5 year birthday party (i think it's something special for jews, forgot what it's called)...as if that's not bad enough when the family is burrying their loved ones they attacked the funeral killing more. Sick.

You know the Israelis have done very bad shit...but to kill 100 civilians via colateral damage even with the most irresponsible mission planning doesn't touch the evil of purposefully trageting a little girl's birthday celebration.

Like putting a round through a fvie year olds head as she held her 3 year old sisters hand, for instance....the difference between the two is only this. One side has a superpower bent on convincing the world that their shit somehow is sweeter than the other bunches.

Have you read Stupid White Men? Really good point on Israel situation.

Of course the Palestinians will kill Israelis! When people are mercilessly abused and oppresed, they'll fihgt back! Israel did kill innocent little Palestinian girls first, and the Nation of Israel actually supports terrorism against the Palestinians!

If you're calling the Palestinians terrorrists, you're calling organizations like the African National Congress terrorists too.

You know what? I'm not calling the Palestinians terrorists. I'm calling the PLO or the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade or the PLF or any other organization that indiscriminately kills to further a cause terrorists. And the "killing of innocent little girls" argument is crap propaganda released by the PA after an "incident" at Jenin in Israel. Quoting Natan Sharansky in his book, "The Case for Democracy":


One the evening of March 29, 2002, in the dining hall of the Park HOtel in Israel's costal city of Netanya, scores of Israelis were celebrating the traditional Passover Seder with their families, recounting the Jews' exodus from ancient Egypt that marked their journey from slavery to freedom. A suicide bomber walked into the middle of the dining hall and blew himself up, killing 29 Israelis and wounding dozen more... (previously speaking of being called to a conference in which a military retaliation was planned against the plotters of the attack)

The camp (referring to a Hamas camp in Jenin) was considered a stronghold of Hamas... Our troops knew that a bomb could be hidden underneath any car and that a terrorist could be waiting behidn any door. We also realized that just as the terrorists deliberately target civilians, they also intentially use them as human shields. This exacted a heavy price on much of the Palestinian population who lived in fear of Israeli reprisals for terror attacks, because not even Israel's precision strikes were perfect. In the Jenin refugee camp, the terrorists had hold up in an area where nearly 1,000 Palestinian civilians were living.

(Mentions how other nations, such as Syria and Russia, had simply annihilated towns that harbored terrorists.)

(Mentions death of 13 Israeli soldiers during their mission from house to house finding terrorists)

However, relying on phony information produced by Palestinian sources and claiming that Isael had killed over 500 civilians, leveled a hopital, deliberately shot children, and executed prisoners, almost all the foreign press harsly criticized the Israeli action.

The truth was very different: At the end of the operation, fifty-two Palestinians lay dead, almost all of whom were armed. On the Israeli side, twenty-three soldiers had been killed by Palestinian terrorists. This extremely high casualty ration was a function of Israel's willingness to endanger the lives of their own soldiers in order to save the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, of Palestinian civilians.


So no, they don't heartlessly butcher women and children. Don't try pulling that argument.

And if you think the Israelis support terrorism against the Palestinians, do you have one example of how they do? Because they definitely opposed the action of the Irgun. So there aren't many examples of Israelis committing terrorist acts. I'd like to see them.

And you know who abuses the Palestinians? The PA. Remember Yasser Arafat? He was one of the wealthiest men in the world. Net worth: $4 billion. Why were his people he "truly cared about" languishing in poverty? Because money Israel gave as bound by the Oslo Accord was being put into some private fund for Arafat, not into social programs. Since Arafat came into power, the Palestinian GDP dropped by 70%. And this hasn't improved at all. This is why Fatah was voted out of power. Because things are getting worse. The Palestinians contol their own state, not the Israelis. Even though the Israelis haven't made any motion into Palestine, and have in fact withdrawn from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, don't try telling me that it's the Israelis' fault that Palestine has gone down the economic drain.

I didn't say it was fake, I said it was faked. Poor wording on my behalf perhaps, but what I meant was that the "dancing" in the streets was blown totally out of proportion and taken out of context.
No, it wasn't. More than 90% of Palestinians support terorrism.

Exactly.

I was sympathetic with the Palestinians (MY OWN PEOPLE) untill I saw them danceing in the streets after 9/11. Arafat smartly ordered a stop to it but the damage was done.

What a bunch of idiots. They don't realize that their fate is in the hands of the west? They need to make sure our TV screens are filled with hallmark moments...not seeing the blood of civilians trying to have a drink in a cafe or riding a bus to work.

The worst one I heard of is some asshole blew up an israeli girl's 5 year birthday party (i think it's something special for jews, forgot what it's called)...as if that's not bad enough when the family is burrying their loved ones they attacked the funeral killing more. Sick.

You know the Israelis have done very bad shit...but to kill 100 civilians via colateral damage even with the most irresponsible mission planning doesn't touch the evil of purposefully trageting a little girl's birthday celebration.
:) If the Palestinians are ever going to make democracy work, they'll need a lot more people like you, friend.

Don't you think there is enough dead people for this small part of world?:
Yes. Unfortunately, most Palestinians appear to disagree.

You know what? I'm not calling the Palestinians terrorists. I'm calling the PLO or the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade or the PLF or any other organization that indiscriminately kills to further a cause terrorists. And the "killing of innocent little girls" argument is crap propaganda released by the PA after an "incident" at Jenin in Israel. Quoting Natan Sharansky in his book, "The Case for Democracy":.

I wasn't referring to that particular incursion into Jenin. However your source is trying to say that the same army that responds with live rifle rounds to stone throwing children endangers its soldiers lives to prevent civillian causalties. You can see a bit of a problem with that idea, can't you?



So no, they don't heartlessly butcher women and children. Don't try pulling that argument.":.

There are approximately 5 times the number of Palestinian children dead to Israeli (since 2000) -many killed by sniper fire. Either the skull of a palestinian child attracts Israeli bullets, or theres something more brutal going on. And thats not taking into account the UN workers, the occassional journalist and the odd member of an NGO. By rifle fire, more often than not.

I suppose this is made up too. Even his own squad thought this one went too far, and he still walked.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1643573,00.html


So there aren't many examples of Israelis committing terrorist acts. I'd like to see them..":.

Pre 1948? Or now?


Israel gave as bound by the Oslo Accord was being put into some private fund for Arafat, not into social programs..":.

And they, and the Americans agreed to it, as access to the fund would not be granted to anyone other than Yasser Arafat in the event of his being deposed by any internal rivals. Rather unfortunately this aided the way he ran the place like a fiefdom, but such was not the actual intention. Its also worth noting that despite Arafats flaws, he refused exile in Paris to stay with his people. He could have taken the money and quite literally run, with an Israeli escort out.


Even though the Israelis haven't made any motion into Palestine, and have in fact withdrawn from the West Bank and Gaza Strip,..":.

I'm sorry to inform you that Israel has not withdrawn from the West Bank.

He may be referring to the very limited withdrawel from some settlements in the West Bank... but that doesnt really count as withdrawing from the West Bank, yes.

Nor did Palestine. It was Ottoman territory till after WWI, and then the Balfour Declaration of 1917 guaranteed the creation of a Jewish homeland.

But the people (who we today call Palestinians) lived in the land and they were violently evicted and their houses bulldozed. The birth of Israel was imposed on them by a bunch of people who had just fought the Nazis for freedom and against violent oppression? Did the Allies continuously bulldoze German or Japanese houses after the war? Did they evict hundreds of thousands?

There are those who act as though the Palestinians have done nothing wrong.

And there are those who talk as if they were the only ones doing the wrong things.

The Israelis have never chosen to voluntarily attack civilians. This is where the two differ.

Please don't be naive... do a Google search on "Qibya operation". In 1953, 69 Palestinian civilians, half of which were women and children, were killed by Sharon's Unit 101, in a reprisal attack on a small village. Only 8 years after their suffering under Nazi hands was ended, they were showing the world how well they had learned the lesson.

In 1982, Lebanese militiamen invaded a refugee camp to take out PLO fighters, while the Israeli forces guarded camp exits. Israel argued later there were up to 2.000 fighters in the camp. In a very brave move, they sent 150 militiamen to take them out. The Lebanese militiamen suffered 2 casualties, while the "PLO fighters" suffered somewhere between 700 and 3500. If that isn't GOD-MODE or a blatant lie, then I don't know what it is... No, I'll tell you what it was; it was the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

There is only one law in this war, on both sides, and it's "an eye for an eye", which leaves them ALL blind. The only difference between them is that the Palestinians admit it, while the Israelis don't.

The sacrifices made by the Israelis in the name of a Palestinian state are too great to ignore. The Israelis employ 55,000 Palestinians; the total sum of money donated to the corrupt Palestinian Authority by the Israelis numbered at $1.5 billion in Israeli tax dollars...

If a soldier killed my mother and the state threw 100.000.000 dollars at me, without NEVER issuing an apology and then elected that soldier to be a PM, I would throw the money back at their face. Don't expect me to look at blood money with a smile.

Don't get me wrong; I am in full support of a Palestinian state. They deserve one just like Israel does. However, I in no way condone the acts of terror endorsed by the current ruling Palestinian Authority. It's been this way since Arafat was in power, and it needs to change.

Don't get ME wrong. What I don't condone is the double standards some people insist on using when discussing this issue. Personally, I've stated this before and I'll say it again, I despise the use of violence but don't ask me to expect more from the Palestinians, who've had their lives completely ruined, then you would expect from Israelis who live off in luxury. They have an education, they have water, they have food, they have a lot of things Palestinians don't have, because whenever they build something, Israeli bulldozers, tanks and bombs destroy something else.

I don't condone the Palestinian use of violence but I'm even more appalled by Israel's claim for innocence.

No, it wasn't. More than 90% of Palestinians support terorrism.

Against Israel.

I think Palestine should be freed, but I also think that they're doing it all the wrong way, afaik.

Against Israel.
And if the Palestinians enthusiasticly support the murder of Jews in Israel, why would they feel differently about Jews in New York?