NationStates Jolt Archive

I saw this comment in another thread (the indoctrinate your kids with religion one) and this question popped into my mind. The statement was that kids should grow up with exposure to religion because if they are indoctrinated they will believe only out of fear rather than actual belief.



Here's where my question kicks in

Aren't all religions run off the fear of punishment or displeasure by diety x anyway? Can people really believe through anything but fear?


Lets look at Christianity because that is my favorite case study as well as the majority of the religious types that post here on NSG. Take in mind all of the Christian doctrine/canon/belief systems you can think of. We have the all knowing god, the trinity, the bible, everything. All of it, the belief in doing good, the idea of sin, heaven, hell, how to interact socially, what is acceptable and not, all of it, is based off the fear of going to hell in the afterlife. If every single person went to heaven, if we could never be eternally punished, what would be the point of god? We wouldn't need to believe in him/her/it/whatever because that god could never ever punish us.

So, the only standing ground that god would have is fear of eternal punishment. Hence, the idea that the only way to actual faith is through fear. You worship because you are afraid of the other option.

thoughts?

Eh...fear of punishment has never really played a part in my choice to practice Christianity. I'm quite opposed to using fear to attract converts.

I think the fear was added or at least stressed by the leaders of said churches.

Less of fear in hell (most rational religious people I've met don't see it as evil, more absense of God or something) I think its more of a fear of not knowing what happens in the afterlife.

Eh...fear of punishment has never really played a part in my choice to practice Christianity. I'm quite opposed to using fear to attract converts.

The use of fear is not overt, its implicent. Some people like to walk out with the "Save ourself" signs and speeches of eternal damnation, but they aren't very effective.


So, why did you/do you practice christianity?

Religion appeals to a sense of vulnerability humans face vis-a-vis the unknown (most specifically the afterlife) and the inexplicable. It may sometimes spread by fear as a means of proselytisation, but the reasons for seeking refuge in it are essentially comfort. The only fear involved is the fear of what man cannot know. Therefore I disagree with your thesis.

Oh, and by the way. You operate on the basis of a major fallacy relative to Christian doctrine. God does not punish. Satan tempts and leads more towards him. Distance from God is Hell. Thus, by moving towards Satan and away from God, one grows ever more miserable. God does not actively punish anyone. Furthermore, it is said one day God will end Hell and vanquish (liberate???) Satan.

I think the fear was added or at least stressed by the leaders of said churches.

The Idea is to scare the (natives) pagans into attending your church and contributing money or goods to support said church. Even priests have to eat.

So, why did you/do you practice christianity?

I don't know that it's something that can be explained very clearly. I sense the presence of God in the universe and in my life, and feel that it would be dishonest of me to discount that...knowing that I can never fully grasp all the truths about this entity, I believe Christianity to be the best means by which to approach/comprehend Him and live in accordance with how He would want me to live. That answer probably sucks, but whatever.

I don't know that it's something that can be explained very clearly. I sense the presence of God in the universe and in my life, and feel that it would be dishonest of me to discount that...knowing that I can never fully grasp all the truths about this entity, I believe Christianity to be the best by which to approach/comprehend Him and live in accordance with how He would want me to live. That answer probably sucks, but whatever.
I find it to be perfectly good.

I saw this comment in another thread (the indoctrinate your kids with religion one) and this question popped into my mind. The statement was that kids should grow up with exposure to religion because if they are indoctrinated they will believe only out of fear rather than actual belief.



Here's where my question kicks in

Aren't all religions run off the fear of punishment or displeasure by diety x anyway? Can people really believe through anything but fear?


Lets look at Christianity because that is my favorite case study as well as the majority of the religious types that post here on NSG. Take in mind all of the Christian doctrine/canon/belief systems you can think of. We have the all knowing god, the trinity, the bible, everything. All of it, the belief in doing good, the idea of sin, heaven, hell, how to interact socially, what is acceptable and not, all of it, is based off the fear of going to hell in the afterlife. If every single person went to heaven, if we could never be eternally punished, what would be the point of god? We wouldn't need to believe in him/her/it/whatever because that god could never ever punish us.

So, the only standing ground that god would have is fear of eternal punishment. Hence, the idea that the only way to actual faith is through fear. You worship because you are afraid of the other option.

thoughts?
I follow God's Laws and rules not out of fear but out of love. I don't fear anything from God. If all you were taught was to fear the punnishments, then I suggest you change churches.

I don't fear the punnishments, I look forwards towards the rewards.

Aren't all religions run off the fear of punishment or displeasure by diety x anyway? Can people really believe through anything but fear?
...

So, the only standing ground that god would have is fear of eternal punishment. Hence, the idea that the only way to actual faith is through fear. You worship because you are afraid of the other option.

thoughts?

That may be true for Abrahamic religions, but not for the Indic religions (Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Advaita, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism etc).

There is no such thing as eternal punishment in the above religions (not really sure about Sikhism, but fairly sure about the others).

Eh...fear of punishment has never really played a part in my choice to practice Christianity. I'm quite opposed to using fear to attract converts.
Hear, hear!

True Christianity is not about fearing Hell, it is about wanting a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is indeed wrong to scare people into following this faith.
While Hell is talked about in the Bible a great deal, it is not stressed for WHY you should go into Christianity, merely as a fact of what will happen. Fearing people into religion is wrong, as it is distorting their view.

Hear, hear!

While Hell is talked about in the Bible a great deal, it is not stressed for WHY you should go into Christianity, merely as a fact of what will happen.


Sadly, this is often not the case.

Lets look at Christianity because that is my favorite case study as well as the majority of the religious types that post here on NSG. Take in mind all of the Christian doctrine/canon/belief systems you can think of. We have the all knowing god, the trinity, the bible, everything. All of it, the belief in doing good, the idea of sin, heaven, hell, how to interact socially, what is acceptable and not, all of it, is based off the fear of going to hell in the afterlife.

Incorrect. And to characterize it that way is to essentially ignore the entirety of Christ's message.

Worship should be out of love, not out of fear. Faith from fear is not faith at all, nor does it lead to any true understanding of love, goodness, or God.

Religion appeals to a sense of vulnerability humans face vis-a-vis the unknown (most specifically the afterlife) and the inexplicable. It may sometimes spread by fear as a means of proselytisation, but the reasons for seeking refuge in it are essentially comfort. The only fear involved is the fear of what man cannot know. Therefore I disagree with your thesis.

Oh, and by the way. You operate on the basis of a major fallacy relative to Christian doctrine. God does not punish. Satan tempts and leads more towards him. Distance from God is Hell. Thus, by moving towards Satan and away from God, one grows ever more miserable. God does not actively punish anyone. Furthermore, it is said one day God will end Hell and vanquish (liberate???) Satan.

But standing outside the Christian faith things are different. By your standards, I will be sent to hell simply because I don’t accept Jesus as my savior; despite any deeds I do good or bad. Gandhi is damned but a child molester that repents can be saved?

That may be true for Abrahamic religions, but not for the Indic religions (Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Advaita, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism etc).

There is no such thing as eternal punishment in the above religions (not really sure about Sikhism, but fairly sure about the others).
I read somewhere that there is a concept of hell in Hinduism and Buddhism, only it is not eternal and the reasons you are in that place are for reasons somewhat different from the general concepts of sin in the Abrahamic relgion.

Found a website similar to what I read: http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_hells.htm

But standing outside the Christian faith things are different. By your standards, I will be sent to hell simply because I don’t accept Jesus as my savior; despite any deeds I do good or bad. Gandhi is damned but a child molester that repents can be saved?
That depends purely on which Dogma you are following. Essentially though, no. Jesus never said one must follow God to be saved; he said you have the freedom to choose. He did say it would be easier to enter Heaven through God, but also that those who lead virtuous lives would be saved. Likewise, sinful Christians will go to Hell. More liberal Catholics espouse this belief, as do the core Dogmas of certain Christian creeds.

But standing outside the Christian faith things are different. By your standards, I will be sent to hell simply because I don’t accept Jesus as my savior; despite any deeds I do good or bad. Gandhi is damned but a child molester that repents can be saved?

No one is "sent" to Hell. Hell is a separation from God. Only by willfully rejecting God can you end up there.

That depends purely on which Dogma you are following. Essentially though, no. Jesus never said one must follow God to be saved; he said you have the freedom to choose. He did say it would be easier to enter Heaven through God, but also that those who lead virtuous lives would be saved. Likewise, sinful Christians will go to Hell. More liberal Catholics espouse this belief, as do the core Dogmas of certain Christian creeds.

We are not simply discussing Dogma but how it is used by the self proclaimed leaders in said churches

No one is "sent" to Hell. Hell is a separation from God. Only by willfully rejecting God can you end up there.
Rejecting God is a matter of manifest sinfulness, I should add. You may not follow God, but by doing good, you may still reach Heaven.

But standing outside the Christian faith things are different. By your standards, I will be sent to hell simply because I don’t accept Jesus as my savior; despite any deeds I do good or bad. Gandhi is damned but a child molester that repents can be saved?
Ahh that is the primary flaw in Christian doctrines, not in all religions as a whole. Although Jews are considered the chosen people in their religion, non-Jews are not necessarily condemned to damnation.

We are not simply discussing Dogma but how it is used by the self proclaimed leaders in said churches
Who are only part of the faith. A religion is so much more than just the Dogma and the leaders. It is also its followers. That said, its Dogma is of central importance. It is essentially the foundation of its beliefs.

No one is "sent" to Hell. Hell is a separation from God. Only by willfully rejecting God can you end up there.

And statements like these aren’t supposed to cause fear? This is a perfect example of f using fear to keep a mindset.

And statements like these aren’t supposed to cause fear? This is a perfect example of f using fear to keep a mindset.
Rather, I would say, it is a perfect example of misinterpreting what a rejection of God means.

Who are only part of the faith. A religion is so much more than just the Dogma and the leaders. It is also its followers. That said, its Dogma is of central importance. It is essentially the foundation of its beliefs.

I agree, but it is how these leaders and followers use the ideas they choose to control and intimidate others.

I agree, but it is how these leaders and followers use the ideas they choose to control and intimidate others.
Then we are talking purely about means of prosetylisation, and not the entire religion.

Rather, I would say, it is a perfect example of misinterpreting what a rejection of God means.

But giving someone a choice of agree with you mindset or be damned or cast out or what ever you choose is intimidating.

Then we are talking purely about means of prosetylisation, and not the entire religion.

This I agree with the religion is less flawed the messages that are used by the followers.

But giving someone a choice of agree with you mindset or be damned or cast out or what ever you choose is intimidating.
Yes, and in my original post I had specified that this is a tool of converting others. The OP had insinuated that it is the only way religion can survive, other than indoctrination, which is what I disputed.

I read somewhere that there is a concept of hell in Hinduism and Buddhism, only it is not eternal and the reasons you are in that place are for reasons somewhat different from the general concepts of sin in the Abrahamic relgion.

There is no eternal hell or for that matter eternal heaven either. Somebody who is attached to material pleasures will stay in the material world despite being a very good person.

The idea that if you simply believe (or rather proclaim) in some dogma...like saying "I am a muslim and Allah is the only God and Muhammed is his last prophet" or "I am a Christian and I accept Jesus as my saviour" or for that matter me saying "I am a Vaishnavist and Hare Rama Hare Krishna" and then just blindly following some rules and regulation and voila you are in heaven in eternal bliss forever is ridiculous to me.

Only the truly self-realised are liberated and only the liberated stay in spiritual world, and the rest of us will be continuing the life-oldage-disease-death-life-oldage...cycle forever in this material world.

Rejecting God is a matter of manifest sinfulness, I should add. You may not follow God, but by doing good, you may still reach Heaven.

I would say that, by doing good, you *are* following God, even if you don't realize it.


And statements like these aren’t supposed to cause fear? This is a perfect example of f using fear to keep a mindset.

Hardly. Are you afraid of being separated from a being you have chosen to be separated from?

If I *choose* to be separated from John Smith, and never to see him again, and he obliges and I never see him again, is there any fear in that?

This I agree with the religion is less flawed the messages that are used by the followers.
That is the essential problem with religion; the dichotomy between written Dogma and human interpretation, coupled with political motivations, can turn it into a powerful tool for whatever uses one intends to put it to.

That is the essential problem with religion; the dichotomy between written Dogma and human interpretation, coupled with political motivations, can turn it into a powerful tool for whatever uses one intends to put it to.

Well said. I agree.

I would say that, by doing good, you *are* following God, even if you don't realize it.
Exactly. That is the point I've been making all along. :)

I would say that, by doing good, you *are* following God, even if you don't realize it.



Hardly. Are you afraid of being separated from a being you have chosen to be separated from?

If I *choose* to be separated from John Smith, and never to see him again, and he obliges and I never see him again, is there any fear in that?

First can you do good without following god?

Second, I am not speaking of my beliefs as much as I am making a point on what statements like that carry.
If your family and friends or even peers give you messages like that they may carry weight. It is essentially saying our way or no way, and is a strong arm tactic.

First can you do good without following god?
It is generally assumed in the Christian doctrines that God is the source of all good and truth. Thus, if one follows a good life, one indirectly follows God, even if they don't acknowledge it, or openly disavow the deity. Thus, all good flows from God, and cannot exist apart from the deity.

The problem is the Christian doctrines are often twisted around to serve political purposes, so God is used to excuse anything from homophobia to mass warfare. Needless to say, Christianity is not the only religion that suffers from this affliction.

First can you do good without following god?

I don't think you can, no. You may not be consciously following God, but I believe that all good comes from God.

Second, I am not speaking of my beliefs as much as I am making a point on what statements like that carry.

And the particular statement I made was explicit in being without fear. Only those who choose to reject God will be separated from God. I don't see how that can be seen as a fear-based statement any more than, "Those who choose to ride in the car will drive on the freeway."

If your family and friends or even peers give you messages like that they may carry weight. It is essentially saying our way or no way, and is a strong arm tactic.

I didn't say anything about "our way". I didn't define a "way". Once again, I don't see how you can get anything like this out of what I said.

It is generally assumed in the Christian doctrines that God is the source of all good and truth. Thus, if one follows a good life, one indirectly follows God, even if they don't acknowledge it..

Statements like this invalidate all other religions and faith, let alone free will.

Statements like this invalidate all other religions and faith, let alone free will.
If you are following Christianity to the exclusion of other religions, don't you think that is kind of the point? Furthermore, liberal views of God could go as far as saying that we all worship the same God, whether we know it or not. This particularly holds true of the Abrahamic religions.

As for free will, it does nothing of the sort. You can choose to do as you please, and live by the consequences. Very few things distance you from God, usually such things as murder.

If Christianity were objectively true, all other faiths WOULD be invalidated. So, I don't see anything wrong with a Christian (or a member of any religion) believing that the truth of his faith invalidates all others.

If Christianity were objectively true, all other faiths WOULD be invalidated. So, I don't see anything wrong with a Christian (or a member of any religion) believing that the truth of his faith invalidates all others.
Precisely.

I don't think you can, no. You may not be consciously following God, but I believe that all good comes from God.

Statements like this invalidate all other religions and faith, let alone free will.


And the particular statement I made was explicit in being without fear. Only those who choose to reject God will be separated from God. I don't see how that can be seen as a fear-based statement any more than, "Those who choose to ride in the car will drive on the freeway."



But giving the choice of being with god = happiness, and being separated from god = unhappiness is a loaded question.

Statements like this invalidate all other religions and faith, let alone free will.

What religion do you know of that doesn't profess that goodness comes from God (if said religion posits a God at all)? We aren't saying, "We personally know what is right and good and it comes from the version of God we believe in." Instead, we are saying, "All goodness comes from God, and we hope we have the 'version' of that God correct."

How does goodness coming from God invalidate free will?

If Christianity were objectively true, all other faiths WOULD be invalidated. So, I don't see anything wrong with a Christian (or a member of any religion) believing that the truth of his faith invalidates all others.

The moment someone believes that their faith is completely and objectively true, they have already lost faith.

Statements like this invalidate all other religions and faith, let alone free will.

You keep saying that. And yet, they really don't.

It would only invalidate other religions or faith if I said, "MY RELIGION IS 100% TRUE AND ALL YOU OTHER GUYS ARE JUST WRONG!!!!" This is something I have not said.

And a statement that goodness comes from God in no way invalidates the free will to choose good or evil (or, depending on what choices there are, neither).

But giving the choice of being with god = happiness, and being separated from god = unhappiness is a loaded question.

Did I say that separation from God is automatically unhappiness? I'll check, but I don't think I did.

I said that one is separated from God if one chooses to be. As such, why would the person who chose to do so be unhappy about it?

What religion do you know of that doesn't profess that goodness comes from God (if said religion posits a God at all)? We aren't saying, "We personally know what is right and good and it comes from the version of God we believe in." Instead, we are saying, "All goodness comes from God, and we hope we have the 'version' of that God correct."

How does goodness coming from God invalidate free will?

The problem is who defines goodness? Each religion claims it's thier god that it comes from. It is too specific in my mind, I just cant agree.

The moment someone believes that their faith is completely and objectively true, they have already lost faith.

This I do agree with.

Religions are a reaction to fear. Or they were originally. Consider-
Approximately 7:39 PM, 17th November, 4321 BC
Man A:Wow, was that lightning!
Man B:Look, Man C's house is on fire!
Man A: Dude, that sucks. Hey, doesn't lightning come from God A?
Man B:Ya, of course.
Man A: Does that mean that God A sent the lightning to destroy Man C's house?
Man B:I guess He must have. Crap, I hope he doesn't send some to my house, I just painted it.
Man A:We better go ask the Holy Man A how to stop God A from smiting us with lightning.
Holy Man A:What is your Question about God A, my son?
Man B:Wha..where did you come from!?
Man A:Em, yeah. How do we make God A happy so he doesn't own, I mean, smite us with lightning like he did Man C and Woman DD?
Holy Man A:If you live your life according to Holy Book A you will be safe from God A's ownage. Em..I mean eh...smiteage.Yeah, smiteage.
Man B:Sounds good, I just painted my house Colour A. I don't want it getting owned.
Man A:......
Holy Man A:.......
Man B:What? Oh, I mean eh, I don't want it getting smited, eh smitten. Em...:confused: So eh, where can one of these Holy Book As?
Holy Book A:I'm over here.
Man A: What the....
Holy Man A:Sweet God A Above!!!
Man B:Oh crap, kill it! Kill it!
*gunshots*
Man B: Die motherfu...Hang on, where'd I get this gun from?
Rocks fall. They all die.

Did I say that separation from God is automatically unhappiness? I'll check, but I don't think I did.

I said that one is separated from God if one chooses to be. As such, why would the person who chose to do so be unhappy about it?

The context you used separation from god was in response to my statements of going to hell, other than that no you never implied any such thing

lol Ifreann

The problem is who defines goodness?

God. We human beings just try to figure it out.

Each religion claims it's thier god that it comes from.

Is God defined by God's own existence, or by what we, as fallible humans, claim about God?


The context you used separation from god was in response to my statements of going to hell, other than that no you never implied any such thing

Hell is separation from God, no more, no less. For those of us who love God, such a separation would involve unhappiness - torture, even. But what would it be for those who do not love God, or who have chosen not to be with God? I can't answer that question, but I wouldn't jump straight to assuming that it would be unhappy.

Hell is separation from God, no more, no less. For those of us who love God, such a separation would involve unhappiness - torture, even. But what would it be for those who do not love God, or who have chosen not to be with God? I can't answer that question, but I wouldn't jump straight to assuming that it would be unhappy.
That is assuming happiness is actually possible at such distance from God. It's often said Satan is miserable in his loneliness, thus he attempts to bring more to his side.

God. We human beings just try to figure it out.



Is God defined by God's own existence, or by what we, as fallible humans, claim about God?



Hell is separation from God, no more, no less. For those of us who love God, such a separation would involve unhappiness - torture, even. But what would it be for those who do not love God, or who have chosen not to be with God? I can't answer that question, but I wouldn't jump straight to assuming that it would be unhappy.

You admit that we, the fallible humans interrupt what god wants, there by easily flawing all other arguments. So we agree on that.

You keep arguing that separation from god would or should cause pain? Or am I misunderstanding? Is this the argument you would use to convert some one to your faith?

Religions are a reaction to fear. Or they were originally. Consider-
Approximately 7:39 PM, 17th November, 4321 BC
Man A:Wow, was that lightning!
Man B:Look, Man C's house is on fire!
Man A: Dude, that sucks. Hey, doesn't lightning come from God A?
Man B:Ya, of course.
Man A: Does that mean that God A sent the lightning to destroy Man C's house?
Man B:I guess He must have. Crap, I hope he doesn't send some to my house, I just painted it.
Man A:We better go ask the Holy Man A how to stop God A from smiting us with lightning.
Holy Man A:What is your Question about God A, my son?
Man B:Wha..where did you come from!?
Man A:Em, yeah. How do we make God A happy so he doesn't own, I mean, smite us with lightning like he did Man C and Woman DD?
Holy Man A:If you live your life according to Holy Book A you will be safe from God A's ownage. Em..I mean eh...smiteage.Yeah, smiteage.
Man B:Sounds good, I just painted my house Colour A. I don't want it getting owned.
Man A:......
Holy Man A:.......
Man B:What? Oh, I mean eh, I don't want it getting smited, eh smitten. Em...:confused: So eh, where can one of these Holy Book As?
Holy Book A:I'm over here.
Man A: What the....
Holy Man A:Sweet God A Above!!!
Man B:Oh crap, kill it! Kill it!
*gunshots*
Man B: Die motherfu...Hang on, where'd I get this gun from?
Rocks fall. They all die.

Best argument in this thread. All pwned.

Best argument in this thread. All pwned.
Hoorah, recognition!

Oh, and by the way. You operate on the basis of a major fallacy relative to Christian doctrine. God does not punish. Satan tempts and leads more towards him. Distance from God is Hell. Thus, by moving towards Satan and away from God, one grows ever more miserable. God does not actively punish anyone. Furthermore, it is said one day God will end Hell and vanquish (liberate???) Satan.

This is not entirely true, though you do not follow the same doctrine I do, so you may believe that.

I can't answer that question, but I wouldn't jump straight to assuming that it would be unhappy.

Well, of course it would be, considering there wouldn't be much of a point of hell if it was a good thing.

This is not entirely true, though you do not follow the same doctrine I do, so you may believe that.
It's a belief held in the Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches.

That depends purely on which Dogma you are following. Essentially though, no. Jesus never said one must follow God to be saved; he said you have the freedom to choose. He did say it would be easier to enter Heaven through God, but also that those who lead virtuous lives would be saved. Likewise, sinful Christians will go to Hell.

No sinful Christians will not go to hell. Everyone is sinful and not everyone will go to hell. Though i belive that waht Jesus said was more along the lines of saying that somone who is without sin will go to heaven even if you don't belive. Witch is kind of a challenge of sorts because no one can lead a sinless life. Acording to the bible there is the book of life and and the book of deads. If you have chosen to belive Christ then your in the book of life and all your sins in the book of deads are erased becasue Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. " if anyones name does not appear in the book of life they are thrown into the lake of fire."

No sinful Christians will not go to hell. Everyone is sinful and not everyone will go to hell. Though i belive that waht Jesus said was more along the lines of saying that somone who is without sin will go to heaven even if you don't belive. Witch is kind of a challenge of sorts because no one can lead a sinless life. Acording to the bible there is the book of life and and the book of deads. If you have chosen to belive Christ then your in the book of life and all your sins in the book of deads are erased becasue Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. " if anyones name does not appear in the book of life they are thrown into the lake of fire."

Roflmao!

Based on fear of punishment and/or hope of rewards.

It seems to me that religion is based on fear of the unknown, rather than punishment. When it comes down to it we can never really know how the universe began, how life started, when humans becamse sentient. Science can answer these questions to a certain extent, using fossil records and archaeological evidence etc, but we can never be 100% sure of any of it, because it is in the past and cannot be observed. if the earliest evidence of human intelligence is a hundred thousand years ago, that doesnt mean that that is when culture started, it just means that thats what we know so far.

Religion answers all our questions, about life, the universe and everything. People must be afraid of the unknown to believe such absurd things. The sureness of it outweighs the inherrent implausibility. Thats why we believe many things, like UFOs. A flying object that we cant identify? how absurd, its clearly aliens. the idea of not knowing something is too much for people.

Ask a little kid what causes rain or thunder. assuming they dont actually know, they will almost certainly make something up rather than admitting they dont know.

Is it really that hard to believe that someone could hold religious beliefs without being afraid of anything in particular?

That is assuming happiness is actually possible at such distance from God. It's often said Satan is miserable in his loneliness, thus he attempts to bring more to his side.

Actually, it assumes no such thing. Like I said, I don't claim to know what separation from God would be like. It might be inherently unhappy, it might not.


You keep arguing that separation from god would or should cause pain? Or am I misunderstanding? Is this the argument you would use to convert some one to your faith?

It would cause me pain, as I love God and would not want to be separated. I don't know what it would be like for another.

Is God defined by God's own existence, or by what we, as fallible humans, claim about God?

This sounds like a hostile question, but it isn't meant to be.

How much of what is thought, written or said about God falls into the category of "human claims" about God?

It seems to me that if God is not defined by fallible human claims (as I believe it reasonable He/She is not), than at this time, God seems largely undefined (outside of the a priori assumptions of the word itself.

No sinful Christians will not go to hell. Everyone is sinful and not everyone will go to hell. Though i belive that waht Jesus said was more along the lines of saying that somone who is without sin will go to heaven even if you don't belive. Witch is kind of a challenge of sorts because no one can lead a sinless life. Acording to the bible there is the book of life and and the book of deads. If you have chosen to belive Christ then your in the book of life and all your sins in the book of deads are erased becasue Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. " if anyones name does not appear in the book of life they are thrown into the lake of fire."

It's not a challenge, it's an impossibility. Humanity was cursed upon the fall of Adam. No human can live a sinless life, except Jesus, who was all human and all God. After all, "No one can come to the Father except through [Jesus]."

And Europa Maxima, I suppose it depends on your definition of "punish." If you define it one way, then I agree. If you define it another way, then you're wrong. :P


Saint Curie, God is by definition undefinable, as He exists outside the realms of human thought and reality. It's a scientific impossibility for the Trinity to occur, yet it does. (Well, there is some of the particle-wave theories floating around in Quantum physics, but I won't get into that).


And Protagenast, who said anything about Free Will? I'm a Calvinist -- I don't believe true free will exists.

Saint Curie, God is by definition undefinable, as He exists outside the realms of human thought and reality. It's a scientific impossibility for the Trinity to occur, yet it does. (Well, there is some of the particle-wave theories floating around in Quantum physics, but I won't get into that).


Well, it seems He's undefinable and "outside the realms of human thought and reality" when certain questions arise, but when (some) religious people use God to explain how people should think or live, people seem to have a lot of definitions.

As to particle-wave theories in Quantum Physics, please elaborate. I'm honestly very interested in quantum modeling, and I'd like to hear your views.

Judaism is not based on fear. It is based on right and wrong. We don't talk much about the punishment. The Jewish equivalent of Hell, Gehenna, is a place of great SPIRITUAL pain, and the maximum period there is 12 months. After that, you go straight to Olam Haba ("The world to come").

There is also karet, which I translate as the "Divine Death Penalty" - your soul is destroyed and you stop existing altogether.

Judaism also claims that the life of Torah is the best life possible, ie you will have a higher-quality life - in THIS WORLD - if you follow Torah, or at least accept the seven Noachide laws. A quick rundown on those laws:

Prohibited:
Murder
Stealing
Adultery
Blasphemy
Eating something taken from a live animal (like ripping off a sheep's leg and eating it)
Idolatry

Required:
Setting up court systems.

Best part:
You may violate any of these laws to save your own life.

Unfortunately, Jews cannot become Noachides. Once you are a Jew, you stay a Jew.

That was pretty informative.

this really religious (Christian) girl i knew got into an argument with this Jewish girl about religion. It was kinda crazy... eventually, the Xtian basically told everyone they were going to hell if they didn't believe in Christ and got saved...

SAVED... if you weren't afraid, why would you need saving? People fear the divine punishment so they join religions to get saved.

Religion is not based on fear. That is a lie by those who would lead you down the path to Hell. Do not believe the lies of these sinners.

Religion is not based on fear. That is a lie by those who would lead you down the path to Hell. Do not believe the lies of these sinners.
Hell. That's the thing we're supposed to fear, right?

Religion is not based on fear. That is a lie by those who would lead you down the path to Hell. Do not believe the lies of these sinners.

...because otherwise we'll go to Hell?

Precisely an example of how much of religion is based on fear.

This thread is sweet.

This sounds like a hostile question, but it isn't meant to be.

I do apologize if it sounded hostile.

How much of what is thought, written or said about God falls into the category of "human claims" about God?

I would say: All of it. Some of it may be correct, but that doesn't change that, as far as we can actually know, they are simply "human claims".

I read somewhere that there is a concept of hell in Hinduism and Buddhism, only it is not eternal and the reasons you are in that place are for reasons somewhat different from the general concepts of sin in the Abrahamic relgion.

Found a website similar to what I read: http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_hells.htm

As far as Buddhism goes, there are several concepts of hell, actually, in the sutras themselves, several hells, the worst one being the hell of incessant suffering. All that is said about it is that it's just really really bad because if one were to hear a description of just how bad it was, they would cough up blood and die.

Fantastic concepts aside, there is a very real hell that people can experience within their life and it's a state of mind where one wants to destroy themselves and everything around them. There is no hope because hoping is useless and all one can do is groan with the agony. Even in such a state, there is benefit because afterwards, one can recognise a person whose life condition is in hell and exercise compassion to get them out of it.

I do apologize if it sounded hostile.



I would say: All of it. Some of it may be correct, but that doesn't change that, as far as we can actually know, they are simply "human claims".

No, I'm sorry, I meant my question seemed hostile. Yours was not.

Also, I agree with your answer, but I don't preclude the idea of some human claims being correct, or at least an approach to correctness.

Well, it seems He's undefinable and "outside the realms of human thought and reality" when certain questions arise, but when (some) religious people use God to explain how people should think or live, people seem to have a lot of definitions.

True. I never said they're right.

As to particle-wave theories in Quantum Physics, please elaborate. I'm honestly very interested in quantum modeling, and I'd like to hear your views.

Look, I'm just a curious newly-turned 16 year old in an American public high school. I don't know a whole freaking lot. All I remember from what I read was that there's a bunch of theories floating around (no pun intended) about electron's abilities to be in multiple places at once.

Aryavartha brought up non-Abrahamic religions that have different concepts of hell or none at all to show a set of religions that don't emphasize a risk of a bad afterlife to instill/exploit fear (to whatever extent the Abrahamic religions do so; there's so much variation, I don't want to make a blanket statement). I'd like to add that most animistic religions also do not have a concept of heaven and hell and/or do not talk about after-life punishments to get worshippers to conform or obey a set of rules. But that doesn't necessarily mean that followers of such religions are free of supernatural fears.

I actually had a big fight with someone about this in another thread, a while ago. That person thought that animism teaches people to live in fear of evil spirits. As I explained to him, animist religions teach people how to deal with a spiritual world which may be variously beneficent or dangerous. It offers spiritual/ritual/magical control over that world. I think that's a key point. Religion tries to answer questions science can't, and it also tries to give us a sense of understanding of the universe and a sense of control over our lives in it. But it deals directly with things that people do not understand and, therefore, fear.

If people feel driven to or by religion because of fear of spirits/god/satan/whatever, it is to the extent that they are fearful people, imo.

When you really look at religions like Christianity, they all tell people not to fear things -- not even to fear evil -- but people still do. The very thought of such negative things scares them. They can't overcome their fear enough to see the way out of it offered by the religion. Perhaps the great tragedy of organized religion is the number of so-called religious leaders -- popes, preachers, imams, evangelists of all varieties, etc -- who choose to exploit those fears rather than help people get free of them.

True. I never said they're right.



Look, I'm just a curious newly-turned 16 year old in an American public high school. I don't know a whole freaking lot. All I remember from what I read was that there's a bunch of theories floating around (no pun intended) about electron's abilities to be in multiple places at once.

Are you referring to orbitals as probability fields? This is a field that interests me a great deal. Were you reading peer-reviewed scientific journals, or something like Time or Popular Science?

Don't worry about being young. Its very likely that many momentous advances in science will come about in your life; if you are diligent in your studies now, you could very well be part of those discoveries.

Religions are a reaction to fear. Or they were originally. Consider-
Approximately 7:39 PM, 17th November, 4321 BC
Man A:Wow, was that lightning!
Man B:Look, Man C's house is on fire!
Man A: Dude, that sucks. Hey, doesn't lightning come from God A?
Man B:Ya, of course.
Man A: Does that mean that God A sent the lightning to destroy Man C's house?
Man B:I guess He must have. Crap, I hope he doesn't send some to my house, I just painted it....

<snip!>


At least that's actually a decent reason to fear God A. I'll take fear of having your house destroyed by lightning as a reason to placate God A over nebulous ideas of form of the afterlife any day.

I saw this comment in another thread (the indoctrinate your kids with religion one) and this question popped into my mind. The statement was that kids should grow up with exposure to religion because if they are indoctrinated they will believe only out of fear rather than actual belief.



Here's where my question kicks in

Aren't all religions run off the fear of punishment or displeasure by diety x anyway? Can people really believe through anything but fear?


Lets look at Christianity because that is my favorite case study as well as the majority of the religious types that post here on NSG. Take in mind all of the Christian doctrine/canon/belief systems you can think of. We have the all knowing god, the trinity, the bible, everything. All of it, the belief in doing good, the idea of sin, heaven, hell, how to interact socially, what is acceptable and not, all of it, is based off the fear of going to hell in the afterlife. If every single person went to heaven, if we could never be eternally punished, what would be the point of god? We wouldn't need to believe in him/her/it/whatever because that god could never ever punish us.

So, the only standing ground that god would have is fear of eternal punishment. Hence, the idea that the only way to actual faith is through fear. You worship because you are afraid of the other option.

thoughts?
Christianity is not typical of most religions, it's quite unique. Most religions are about understanding --understanding one's self through relationship to deity, understanding our relationship with the world around us. That sort of thing.

Are you referring to orbitals as probability fields? This is a field that interests me a great deal. Were you reading peer-reviewed scientific journals, or something like Time or Popular Science?

Popular Science, Stephen Hawking's book A Brief History of Time (I didn't get all of it), and...there were a few others I read, don't remember what. :confused:

Don't worry about being young. Its very likely that many momentous advances in science will come about in your life; if you are diligent in your studies now, you could very well be part of those discoveries.

I'd rather go into politics and be president and then TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!1111!!1shift+1 :p

"Aren't most religions based upon fear?"

Unfortunately, many religions which start out emphasizing love wind up being preempted by those who see fear as a motivator. Fear can only motivate people to do the minimum to slide by, which is one of the primary reasons so many of those who call themselves "christians" ( for example ) may attend church and make a gesture at reading the Bible and pray when they think it will do them some good, but have no true understanding of the faith they profess.

"Aren't most religions based upon fear?"

Unfortunately, many religions which start out emphasizing love wind up being preempted by those who see fear as a motivator. Fear can only motivate people to do the minimum to slide by, which is one of the primary reasons so many of those who call themselves "christians" ( for example ) may attend church and make a gesture at reading the Bible and pray when they think it will do them some good, but have no true understanding of the faith they profess.

And even less understanding of the religions that they denounce.

And even less understanding of the religions that they denounce.
Probably.

I don't know that it's something that can be explained very clearly. I sense the presence of God in the universe and in my life, and feel that it would be dishonest of me to discount that...knowing that I can never fully grasp all the truths about this entity, I believe Christianity to be the best means by which to approach/comprehend Him and live in accordance with how He would want me to live. That answer probably sucks, but whatever.

As a Buddhist fear of God has not played into my life. The Buddhist tradition, notice I said tradition and not religion, is based on the fact that we ourselves have everything we need to life and survive. We are in the drivers seat so to say.

No I was raised as a christian, but the EGO of said God pushed me away. The fact that I was told several times that if i did not pray and worship God that he would not bless me. That even tho i never cheat on my taxes, or break any laws, I am a good and compasionate person that God is going to judge me unfavoribly because I do not pray and worship him.

That pushed me away.

You see see as a Buddhist, i do feel that if there is a God that I am being the best human I can be. I do not need to feed said Gods EGo because he already knows what he has and can do. I do not need to feed his EGo anymore. But what is a God other then a super-EGO?

Through the Buddhist tradition I have added peace, love compassion and so much to my life. That comes through releasing the attachment to dogma. If God, like the bible says, is all knowing, and will judghe everyone fairly, he will see that I am leading by example. I have not turned my back on him, but only my side.

Fear plays no part in my faith because I have no attachment to fear. You cannot outswim the shark that fear is. But if you turn around and face it down and score that strike in the snout, fear will forget bout you and you will be free of the attachment to fear.

This is no over night thing. This is comes from practice and focus. Mindful thoughts and peace of mind bring s closer to who we truely are.

And isn't who we truely are, what God intended us to be in the first place?

An axim of Buddhism is that you can only be who you are. You are a christian or not. Your fear is suffering, and do you think God wants you to suffer? Wouldn't God want you not to suffer, and if that path is somewhere else, do you think he would punish you?

That would be un-fair, and not true to the charicteristics of the God I have read about.


And on a side note I sometimes pray. But that is to make sure that Gods knows that I have not forgotten about him, but that I have a different path then what he set out for me, if he exists.

And doesn't that happen to even the best of parents plans? You want your son to be the STAR quaterback, but he runs like he has crap in his pants. Just ain't gonna happen. You cannot force that square peg into the triangular hole. You may be able to force it in there, but it will not be good for any of the parties involved.

So in closing what I am saying is that you may be able to find peace, without fear in Buddhism. Many people have found this to be true. And it may or may not be what you think, just like christianity is for some. But you need to not hold onto your attachment to the fear that if you do not pray to God you will go to hell. Then the bag of rocks on your back will be taken away, and your life will be better.

Even to release your fear and remain a christian is fine.

Whatever is best for you and your loved ones. And that is a basic principle of Buddhism.

Tele me if yo want to talk more

As a Buddhist fear of God has not played into my life. The Buddhist tradition, notice I said tradition and not religion, is based on the fact that we ourselves have everything we need to life and survive. We are in the drivers seat so to say.

No I was raised as a christian, but the EGO of said God pushed me away. The fact that I was told several times that if i did not pray and worship God that he would not bless me. That even tho i never cheat on my taxes, or break any laws, I am a good and compasionate person that God is going to judge me unfavoribly because I do not pray and worship him.

That pushed me away.

You see see as a Buddhist, i do feel that if there is a God that I am being the best human I can be. I do not need to feed said Gods EGo because he already knows what he has and can do. I do not need to feed his EGo anymore. But what is a God other then a super-EGO?

Through the Buddhist tradition I have added peace, love compassion and so much to my life. That comes through releasing the attachment to dogma. If God, like the bible says, is all knowing, and will judghe everyone fairly, he will see that I am leading by example. I have not turned my back on him, but only my side.

Fear plays no part in my faith because I have no attachment to fear. You cannot outswim the shark that fear is. But if you turn around and face it down and score that strike in the snout, fear will forget bout you and you will be free of the attachment to fear.

This is no over night thing. This is comes from practice and focus. Mindful thoughts and peace of mind bring s closer to who we truely are.

And isn't who we truely are, what God intended us to be in the first place?

An axim of Buddhism is that you can only be who you are. You are a christian or not. Your fear is suffering, and do you think God wants you to suffer? Wouldn't God want you not to suffer, and if that path is somewhere else, do you think he would punish you?

That would be un-fair, and not true to the charicteristics of the God I have read about.


And on a side note I sometimes pray. But that is to make sure that Gods knows that I have not forgotten about him, but that I have a different path then what he set out for me, if he exists.

And doesn't that happen to even the best of parents plans? You want your son to be the STAR quaterback, but he runs like he has crap in his pants. Just ain't gonna happen. You cannot force that square peg into the triangular hole. You may be able to force it in there, but it will not be good for any of the parties involved.

So in closing what I am saying is that you may be able to find peace, without fear in Buddhism. Many people have found this to be true. And it may or may not be what you think, just like christianity is for some. But you need to not hold onto your attachment to the fear that if you do not pray to God you will go to hell. Then the bag of rocks on your back will be taken away, and your life will be better.

Even to release your fear and remain a christian is fine.

Whatever is best for you and your loved ones. And that is a basic principle of Buddhism.

Tele me if yo want to talk more

Well said. I would like to talk more.

Christianity is not typical of most religions, it's quite unique. Most religions are about understanding --understanding one's self through relationship to deity, understanding our relationship with the world around us. That sort of thing.

Are you suggesting that Christianity is not about understanding oneself through relationship to deity, understanding our relationship with the world around us, etc.?

I'm a pagan who beleives in reincarnation. Reincarnation is not a punishment or a reward, and there is no heaven or hell in my beleifs. Earth is your heaven and your hell, depending on how you live and react in it.

I'm not afraid of my deities, and I know that any wrong I do is of my own doing. My own conscience will be more hellish than anything the Gods could do to me. Our very freewill allows us to create and change our day to day lives. I do good, because that is what my conscience tells me to do, and because I feel happier when I can make the people around me happier. I tell myself this, not my Gods.

I want to remain here in the physical form forever, discovering for myself all the variations of the human spirit and my own soul. This is my paradise, and when I die, I only want to come back and do it all over again.

If this isn't what's ahead of me when I die, would I be fearful of what is there? No. I would just meet what awaits me.

It's love, curiosity, and happiness that brought me to my faith.

Aren't all religions run off the fear of punishment or displeasure by diety x anyway?

Nope. Though I suppose there are particular ways you could define religion to make that the case. I suspect you're doing a little too much generalization based on certain expressions of Christianity here.

Can people really believe through anything but fear?

Sure. Some people believe because they have mystical experiences, or simply because someone told them so, or because they needed to believe in something and it was convenient to go with a certain religion, or because they enjoy the community of believers.

Lets look at Christianity because that is my favorite case study as well as the majority of the religious types that post here on NSG. Take in mind all of the Christian doctrine/canon/belief systems you can think of. We have the all knowing god, the trinity, the bible, everything. All of it, the belief in doing good, the idea of sin, heaven, hell, how to interact socially, what is acceptable and not, all of it, is based off the fear of going to hell in the afterlife. If every single person went to heaven, if we could never be eternally punished, what would be the point of god? We wouldn't need to believe in him/her/it/whatever because that god could never ever punish us.

Actually, it sounds like you're the one with the fear here, interestingly. Why do you question what the point of believing in God is if he can't punish you? I suspect it's because you, like many others, want to do whatever the hell you feel like without fear of punishment.

Other people believe not out of self-interest in the fearful sense of it, but because religion empowers them, or because they see truth in it. Granted, many people are like yourself and see no reason but fear to believe, but that is not the case for all.

So, the only standing ground that god would have is fear of eternal punishment.

You're going to have to do much better to convince me of the validity of that conclusion.

You worship because you are afraid of the other option.

Nah. I worship because the Big Guy's just that cool. ;)

I think the fear was added or at least stressed by the leaders of said churches.
That's why we should all be congregations of one, with no leaders.

That's why we should all be congregations of one, with no leaders.

Commie bastard! :p

Sorry. My religion of McCarthyism compelled me to be afraid of communists. Being afraid of communists punishing me was the only way I could believe in them. ;)

That's why we should all be congregations of one, with no leaders.
I agree (thou this is over simplified) that spirituality should be a deeply personal thing.

As a Buddhist fear of God has not played into my life. The Buddhist tradition, notice I said tradition and not religion, is based on the fact that we ourselves have everything we need to life and survive. We are in the drivers seat so to say.

No I was raised as a christian, but the EGO of said God pushed me away. The fact that I was told several times that if i did not pray and worship God that he would not bless me. That even tho i never cheat on my taxes, or break any laws, I am a good and compasionate person that God is going to judge me unfavoribly because I do not pray and worship him.

That pushed me away.

You see see as a Buddhist, i do feel that if there is a God that I am being the best human I can be. I do not need to feed said Gods EGo because he already knows what he has and can do...

This is no over night thing. This is comes from practice and focus. Mindful thoughts and peace of mind bring s closer to who we truely are...
Well said. Religion is about us, not about god.