NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/05/10/exit.exam.lawsuit.ap/index.html

So, essentially, these people want to block graduation tests because they have crappy schools. Apparently, instead of trying to fix the schools, they think it's a better idea to have people with high school diplomas that aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

I've taken a graduation test. They're ususally on about an 8th grade level. Writing tests usually involve nothing more than stringing several complete sentences together into a paragraph to pass. Math doesn't get past basic geometry and algebra. If someone cannot pass these tests, they should not have a high school diploma, no matter how crappy their school was. If their school doesn't properly teach these things, then the school needs to be fixed.

It would be like someone complaining that their teacher didn't actually teach them algebra, but they should get credit for the class anyways, just for showing up.

And in my state: MORE DUMBASSES (http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/mcas/articles/2006/05/10/state_warns_new_bedford_not_to_relax_mcas_rule/)!

On the other hand, their argument makes sense, at least based on what they've been taught of logic and reasoning ;)

They should be allowed to repeat the year or something. I am familiar with the situation that can result from a tutor being a friend of Jim Beam or just plain not showing up week after week, month after month and not replying to e-mail. If the system fails you, there should definitely be a second chance, but not a pass card.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/05/10/exit.exam.lawsuit.ap/index.html

So, essentially, these people want to block graduation tests because they have crappy schools. Apparently, instead of trying to fix the schools, they think it's a better idea to have people with high school diplomas that aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

I've taken a graduation test. They're ususally on about an 8th grade level. Writing tests usually involve nothing more than stringing several complete sentences together into a paragraph to pass. Math doesn't get past basic geometry and algebra. If someone cannot pass these tests, they should not have a high school diploma, no matter how crappy their school was. If their school doesn't properly teach these things, then the school needs to be fixed.

It would be like someone complaining that their teacher didn't actually teach them algebra, but they should get credit for the class anyways, just for showing up.
In Texas we take grad test in 11th, and yes it is easy.
I think the way to fix education is having the money go with the kid so not just rich kids can go to better privet schools, this will create competition (the basis of our entire nation) and wages will improve drawing starter people to the teaching work force. Also standardized testing bonuses are not a bad idea to a point.

Exit exams? Meh!

It would require a redesign of our system. We have gutted it to no end(speaking of California) and yet we say "Hey you are supposed to know these things!

There should be a yearly test and remedial courses set up to cover what was missed.

On the other hand, their argument makes sense, at least based on what they've been taught of logic and reasoning ;)
that is an idea but most people know even less of that then strait facts.

STFU jest passing rawks skool sucks so fuk U

STFU jest passing rawks skool sucks so fuk U
impressive.

It made me laugh

Yea, the education system in California is not all that great. My boyfriend is going to be a teacher, is student teaching at what is supposedly one of the best schools in the state, and the things he tells me about his students... it's just appalling.

impressive.


I think were seeing results of the process in dicussion here.

.

Yea, the education system in California is not all that great. My boyfriend is going to be a teacher, is student teaching at what is supposedly one of the best schools in the state, and the things he tells me about his students... it's just appalling.

Either he is a hell of a guy or he can't do anything else :p

What city is he in?

What did he mention?

I think were seeing results of the process in dicussion here.

Either that or a very funny joke. :D

I think were seeing results of the process in dicussion here.


Ease up on pollastro, he spelled "impressive" correctly.

They should be allowed to repeat the year or something. I am familiar with the situation that can result from a tutor being a friend of Jim Beam or just plain not showing up week after week, month after month and not replying to e-mail. If the system fails you, there should definitely be a second chance, but not a pass card.

Exactly! You aren't going to fix any problems by saying, "Yeah, we know you didn't learn anything in high school, but here's a diploma anyways."

Exit exams? Meh!

It would require a redesign of our system. We have gutted it to no end(speaking of California) and yet we say "Hey you are supposed to know these things!

There should be a yearly test and remedial courses set up to cover what was missed.

Has the system been gutted to the point that basic math and English aren't even taught? If so, I hate to say it, but none of these kids should have high school diplomas. It may not be their fault, but that is rather beside the point.

Eventually it will only require a grade school education to get a job. And we'll have a fun world full of little dee dee-dee's running around and going into political office

oh wait thats already happening now! :eek:

Has the system been gutted to the point that basic math and English aren't even taught? If so, I hate to say it, but none of these kids should have high school diplomas. It may not be their fault, but that is rather beside the point.

That is why yearly with remedial is far better then the final. The system was never designed for a passing test.

After you clean up the mess, the yearly with remedial can be phased out once students are ingrained with passing the test.

That is why yearly with remedial is far better then the final. The system was never designed for a passing test.

After you clean up the mess, the yearly with remedial can be phased out once students are ingrained with passing the test.

It doesn't address the problem. What you're saying is basically, "If they can pass a test on what they learned this particular year, they're ok."

The problem with that is that a graduation test isn't designed to see just what you learned this year. Hell, everything on the graduation test was information and mathematics I had learned years previous. If a person cannot pass a basic math test, then under no circumstances should they be granted a normal high school diploma.

Yearly tests may help them make that goal, but cannot replace it, especially when you think about how many tests do nothing but measure memorization, which quickly fades.

Edit: Meanwhile, the system shouldn't be designed towards the test. That would basically cut out all actual teaching. But the test should be designed towards the minimum a person needs to come out of high school knowing.

Edit: Meanwhile, the system shouldn't be designed towards the test. That would basically cut out all actual teaching. But the test should be designed towards the minimum a person needs to come out of high school knowing.

We are on the same side on that actually. Teaching to the test will be the norm. One of the local primary schools boasts that they have art once a week and are talking about having a music program maybe in the 6th grade. :rolleyes:

Either he is a hell of a guy or he can't do anything else :p

What city is he in?

What did he mention?
I like to think he's a hell of a guy. :p He's plenty smart, but he's wanted to be a teacher since he was in the eighth grade or something equally ridiculous. Right now he student teaches 8th and 9th graders at a charter school in Natomas (Sacramento area); last semester he was at a high school in Natomas.

These kids... wow. He teaches general science to his 8th graders, and biology to the freshmen. His 8th graders barely have a grasp of basic math, which made teaching them elementary physics... well, difficult. He gave a test a month ago or so, and on test day asked the students if they had any last minute questions they wanted to ask. One girl actually said, "Could you explain it to me?" When he asked what she needed to have explained, she said, "everything". Right now he's covering basic astronomy, and he had to take an entire lesson to get it into his kids' heads that our sun is a star. One student still thinks he's lying about that. He recently asked his freshmen for a short essay (2 or 3 pages) on the life of a prominent biologist. He had me check them, and I'd say fully half of them were entirely plagiarized (in many cases, word for word from websites). They can barely read at a 6th grade level - he can't give them newspaper articles to read, because they don't understand them. He gave his students last semester a test that was fairly easy - I looked at it, and having never taken a biology class in my life, I'm confident I could have passed it if I'd taken maybe 45 minutes to read a textbook. A whopping 70% of his students failed it. One of my favourite stories is from one of his fellow credential students, who is going to be an English teacher. Gave a test in class on something they'd been reading, and caught a student cheating. How did he know the student was cheating? Because student A, who was fully fluent in English, had copied answers from student B, who was Hispanic. Wouldn't be too remarkable, except that student A copied student B's work verbatim, down to the spelling errors.

It doesn't address the problem. What you're saying is basically, "If they can pass a test on what they learned this particular year, they're ok."

The problem with that is that a graduation test isn't designed to see just what you learned this year. Hell, everything on the graduation test was information and mathematics I had learned years previous. If a person cannot pass a basic math test, then under no circumstances should they be granted a normal high school diploma.

Yearly tests may help them make that goal, but cannot replace it, especially when you think about how many tests do nothing but measure memorization, which quickly fades.

Edit: Meanwhile, the system shouldn't be designed towards the test. That would basically cut out all actual teaching. But the test should be designed towards the minimum a person needs to come out of high school knowing.

I'd want a few addendums or modifiers attached for ESL students and people who just moved into the district, but otherwise I agree. I diploma signifies you comprehend the material, and believe me, it isn't hard to comprehend the material in high school.

I'd want a few addendums or modifiers attached for ESL students and people who just moved into the district, but otherwise I agree. I diploma signifies you comprehend the material, and believe me, it isn't hard to comprehend the material in high school.

ESL is, what again?

And I don't think that "students who just moved into the district" should get a free pass to graduate, either. If they went to a school that didn't teach them the basics, then they should have to go through more classes before graduating.

As for it not being hard to comprehend the material, I agree, especially since most graduation tests don't get far into high school material anyways. The only part of the Georgia high school graduation test that I couldn't have passed in 8th grade was the science part, because I simply hadn't yet been introduced to some of the material.

No one should get special dispensation. If you can't pass the test, you don't graduate. End of story.

And the test should be hard. I won't object if 20% of the students fail it every year.

You know, the title of this thread was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but that really is what these people are saying - and they seem to be proud of it!

http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/clickability/index.html?url=/video/education/2006/05/10/bienick.ca.exit.exams.kcra

Apparently, holding everyone to the same standard is somehow removing the right to equal educational opportunities. Never mind that, logically, what the student is saying is, "We should get the same recognition for a lesser education."

And, apparently, we should just hand out diplomas for effort, instead of actual learning. The lawyer is right that it isn't the kids' fault if they don't get a proper education, but that doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas like candy to people who can't even perform basic math skills.

3 main problems I can see with the education system that could be relatively easy to fix.

1. Sever lack of parental involvement. Parents send their kids to school, expect someone to cram information into their heads, but don't want to know what is being taught, or even seem to care.

2. Lack of application. Math is taught, but students aren't shown how to apply it. The theory needs to be shown how it applies in the real world.

3. Remove the tradition of indoctrination. Too many teachers want students to only repeat what they say. Those who dare to question or challenge a teachers assumptions are too often punished.

ESL is, what again?

And I don't think that "students who just moved into the district" should get a free pass to graduate, either. If they went to a school that didn't teach them the basics, then they should have to go through more classes before graduating.

As for it not being hard to comprehend the material, I agree, especially since most graduation tests don't get far into high school material anyways. The only part of the Georgia high school graduation test that I couldn't have passed in 8th grade was the science part, because I simply hadn't yet been introduced to some of the material.

English as Second Language. Put simply, if the only reason you're failing is because you come from a poor district, because you don't have any books in the house and going to the library means dodging bullets, or because you just moved here last year from El Salvador, I'm willing to cut you some slack on the test.

English as Second Language. Put simply, if the only reason you're failing is because you come from a poor district, because you don't have any books in the house and going to the library means dodging bullets, or because you just moved here last year from El Salvador, I'm willing to cut you some slack on the test.

Well, I hate to say it, but I'm not. I don't think you should get a high school diploma without meeting the requirements, no matter how crappy your situation is. If it means that it takes you an extra year to get one, so be it.

As far as I'm concerned, if these situations are keeping kids from their studies, its the situations that have to be addressed. Handing out high school diplomas like candy isn't going to improve anything - and will, in fact, do nothing more than devalue the diploma, so that the fact that the student got one won't mean a damn thing for them.

Note: Obviously, this means that the requirements themselves have to be reasonable, but I don't think basic math and English skills are unreasonable.