NationStates Jolt Archive

how long till china become the single superpower. it seems only a matter of time. it seems eventually they will be in the position the u.s. are in in being able to say do what i say or else. hey, maybe the united nations will move to beijing.;)

I see China as a superpower, but not the superpower. Nowadays communications are now cheap and almost instantaneous. National boundries are less important when it comes to work and trade. It is easier to form coilitions of "sensible" nations. The goals of the first world nations are all the same, peace and stability and economic cooperation. If anyone upsets the apple cart they will soon find themselves on their own and exposed. See the United States today. With the Bushtards out of the Whitehouse the U.S.A. will be able to form coilitions with Europe, Japan, India etc. to contain any country that wants to make trouble. China will be a big power but won't be free to engage in imperialistic behaviour.

Indeed there seems to be recognition that millitary power is not the key to success in China and that economic power is the way to go. Invading China would next to impossible, but they have not concentrated on building offensive capabilities.

The Chinese economy is supposed to be as large as the U.S.'s in about 2040 and should gradually pull ahead after that date. This is a good thing. By 2040 China's population will be old and well off. They won't be spoiling for a fight. We just want to avoid anything stupid happening until then and strengthen international cooperation and law. So that by the time China is a massive superpower they will feel a comfortable part of the world community and not out for payback for the opium wars.

China will never be a "lone" superpower.

Too many other regional influences (India, Japan, the Koreas), along with the rising influence of the EU, will ensure that even if the U.S. somehow falls and falls hard, there will still be a little company for China at the top. :)

The US is in decline now, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing when you consider the alternatives.

It's a slow decline, but inevitable.

For the US to survive this century, it needs to change pretty significantly. It can't expect to continue its hegemony on basis of military or economic might alone - it needs to have the idealistic edge as well.
"War on Terror" destroys that, and many in the government don't seem to realise that America's moral high ground always was its core asset (and I realise all the crap that happened during the Cold War, which was arguably what started this process - but today it's even more public).

So, I don't think the decline won't be immediate, it'll take many years. China is certainly a powerful contender, a unified (in purpose as well as politics) Europe could be too. India also comes to mind, perhaps even Brazil.

But I foresee more and more chaos - no more superpowers, but financial centres and international cash flows as the rulers of the planet.

I don't think that China will take away the seat of global hegemony from America and replace it. Why? Given the fact that there are several other powers rising, I don't think that America has been losing power. It still is strong as ever despite negative international opinion - it's just that there are more powerful nations appearing on the scene. America will probably hold onto it's influence for quite a while, but it will be challenged by the lesser international titans so that it cannot always have it's way.

China has at least 50 years. They're going to have to overthrow Communism first I think, and go for a hardline Democracy before their people can flourish economically on the individual scale. Then they need to stop building a military designed for local policing and start building one that actually has the ability to project power outside of places like Taiwan and Tibet. -Then- they will be a superpower.

China as a 1/6th of the worlds population is already a superpower and has been for years. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

China as a 1/6th of the worlds population is already a superpower and has been for years. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

India also has 1/6 global population and nuclear weapons, yet no one is calling them a superpower.

China as a 1/6th of the worlds population is already a superpower and has been for years. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/.../2119rank.html

Well, if people voted on who was a superpower, they would definitely be one. However, most people speak of their only being one superpower at the moment, the U.S. which is the largest single economy, has the most powerful millitary, and has a (diminishing) technical edge. Despite it's huge population, in many ways China has less weight than France in the world scene. This won't (hopefully won't) last forever.

The world is going to go through changes over the next fifty years that are far more complicated to predict than 'China will be the sole power and America won't be'. Things happen in life that you would never expect, or don't happen when you think they will.

Had you asked a similar question in 1900 no one would have thought that in 50 years Empire would be all but over; ask it in 1950 and no one would have been able to predict the world we live in today.

Well, if people voted on who was a superpower, they would definitely be one. However, most people speak of their only being one superpower at the moment, the U.S. which is the largest single economy, has the most powerful millitary, and has a (diminishing) technical edge. Despite it's huge population, in many ways China has less weight than France in the world scene. This won't (hopefully won't) last forever.

I hope the only reason China becomes greater than France is:
a) France's decline
b) A fundamental change from a society that runs students over w/ tanks

India also has 1/6 global population and nuclear weapons, yet no one is calling them a superpower.Actually, I've heard it referred to as that a lot.

I hope the only reason China becomes greater than France is:
a) France's decline
b) A fundamental change from a society that runs students over w/ tanks

If China doesn't become a superpower it will probably be because it has gotten into a habit of running over its own people with tanks, fallen into civil war, turned facist, etc.

An economically powerful, prosperous China will be much less of a danger than a China that falls apart.

With prosperity invariably comes calls for liberty, history has taught us that a dozen times, so to that end I see China's economic raise linked to a program of increasing its' citizens' civil rights.

But this does not neccessarily mean the end of Communist rule, as, firstly, few mainland Chinese actually want that (it is of course, the only government they know), and secondly, the CCP could control the path to liberty so that their hegemony remains: for example, they could introduce a system to what Saudi Arabia says it is introducing whereby democracy is contained on a local level or adopt Iran's system whereby potential candidates must be vetted by, in this case, the Communist party. Afterall, if you give people control of what happens in their neighbourhood they start to care a lot less about what happens on a wider (much wider in China) scale.

China could eventually become a liberal one-party democracy, where decentralised constituencies elect a member of the Party to represent them, and a constitution that protects human rights and a fair judiciary system keeps everyone, including the Party, happy.

This is what I view happening over the next 50 years or so, unless someone in China makes a huge backwards step pretty soon, but a simple comparison between China under Deng and Hu and China under Mao should encourage anyone not to do this.

India will get there first.

Lets take a look at world:
Europa Union is old and weak. No population, raising racisim against shaking the roots of EU. half their industries are now working in china. They dont control energy resources(gas, oil etc) in fact Russia has recently made a show of power by raising gas prices ridiciluously and EU just obeyed them. EU countries like italy produce mines that terrorists use in middle east. Northern Eu countries allow terrorist propaganda satellite TV channels, terrorist safe houses and organisations. They compete with Usa in international arms market but doesnt have the advantages of Usa retains from cold war(secret pacts covering arms dealing lasting as long as 50 years)

Russia is currently working on retransferring power to the goverment from maffia, fighting on many fronts in its borders against people didnt got their freedom at the end of Ussr because their land had too many valuable natural reserves. They are strong in military and not afraid to use it, developing new and widely usable tactic nuclear weapons. yet they lost in afghanistan and many other fronts.they have to focus on other problems at hand like infastructure and renewing their industries.

U.S.A. is like always using its people as fodder in distant wars commanded by weak minded politicians not real generals. usa claims war against terror but in the middle east, afghanistan, and asia they are pouring billions of dollars into growing terrorist organisations since cold war. Why? to break power of russia and emergence of any regional stabile power. İts just like Vietnam on the opposite side, anyone who studies some history of İndo-china knows that the main force USA fought against there was undercover china red army posing as terrorists.
Usa's new neocon regime is highly dictatorial, racist, bragging about christianism but infact ruled by İsrael. Fighting for not american people but fat İsrael politicians which are acting like a bunch of nazis. Meanwhile they are growing in debt to all world as they spend ridicilousy amounts like 300 Billion dollars(only the extra part) on military budget. Racism against middle easterns, islam etc growing as the frustration of people grow as their problems are ignored by goverment, which they begin to realise they no longer have control on.
China has its own problems, uncountable problems of integrity which they oppres by bloodshed. like the oppression of their at least 200 million non chinese population. Which america contributes by sending elite Cia agents and soldiers of fortune who are all highly experianced in islamic terrorist creation.
China has goverment control over everything with goals to provide its citizens their basic needs. So they can adjust everything to their needs. They are a ever growing endustry giant which replicates and produces everything cheaper than everyone else, destroying world industries and economies to feed itself, using globalization and free trade. They are smart, disciplined, have a huge population, army, culture and history, wast resources and land. They have the oppurtunity to become next america but to their advantage they are not interested in spending time and energy in all the countries of world. So they wont become a nuisiance in world politics like america but everyones life standarts around the world are sure to fall because a large portion of what other countries gained from world markets are now going to feed china.

Errinundera']India will get there first.

I think we will be seeing a lot more Sino-Indian co-operation than Sino-Indian competition. It makes sense, they are neighbours, have similar concerns, similar problems (like Nepal at the moment), and it would be within both of their interests to co-operate rather than have the West pull them apart to destabilise the region's economy.

Have a look at table B-18 on page 33 of the pdf document in the following link:

http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/other_books/appendix_B.pdf

China and India shared #1 and #2 spots for national GDP until as recently as 1870.

The industrialization of the west in the 19th century and its ensuing colonial dominance screwed the two nations utterly.

Since the late 1940s (the Chinese revolution and Indian independence) the two have been climbing back towards their historical positions.

Lets take a look at world:
Europa Union is old and weak. No population, raising racisim against shaking the roots of EU. half their industries are now working in china. They dont control energy resources(gas, oil etc) in fact Russia has recently made a show of power by raising gas prices ridiciluously and EU just obeyed them. EU countries like italy produce mines that terrorists use in middle east. Northern Eu countries allow terrorist propaganda satellite TV channels, terrorist safe houses and organisations. They compete with Usa in international arms market but doesnt have the advantages of Usa retains from cold war(secret pacts covering arms dealing lasting as long as 50 years)Thanks for opening my eyes. I never realized that all of this was taking place, that there aren't incredibly large coal deposits in Germany, that Gazprom raised prices for the EU and not the Ukraine, that terrorists managed to set together a satellite channel, etc.

I think we will be seeing a lot more Sino-Indian co-operation than Sino-Indian competition. It makes sense, they are neighbours, have similar concerns, similar problems (like Nepal at the moment), and it would be within both of their interests to co-operate rather than have the West pull them apart to destabilise the region's economy.

Maybe, but they have a history of emnity. Don't forget the war in the 1960's.

I think we will be seeing a lot more Sino-Indian co-operation than Sino-Indian competition. It makes sense, they are neighbours, have similar concerns, similar problems (like Nepal at the moment), and it would be within both of their interests to co-operate rather than have the West pull them apart to destabilise the region's economy.

If they do co-operate the rest of the world will surely be playing second fiddle (or should that be third) to them. The future will be very interesting indeed.

Maybe, but they have a history of emnity. Don't forget the war in the 1960's.
So do the Indians and the US, but they got over it, at least on a "now working together"-type basis.

Follow the money. Europe may have an ageing population but they are still rich and continue to have economic growth generally comparable to the U.S.. Russia's bloated millitary means little without without funds, modern equipment and a cause. Look to the mess that is Chechneya. Both sides lost and the occupation is Russia's own little Iraq. Without improving economic growth Russia is out of the superpower game.

China's economy will continue to grow but it will be unable to maintain the 10% growth rates it had in the past. Growth rates will slow. It has a head start on India, but it remains to see how India's democracy will help its economic development and avoid internal dissent causing problems.

Once the U.S. gets out of the twin pinchers of Middle-Eastern entanglement and massive budget deficits, they could recover their from their recent loss of pestige and influence and become a more positive influence upon the world. Even if America fails to recover economically due to incompetant management, they could still become like Europe comfortable and rich and less millitaristic.

Even if America fails to recover economically due to incompetant management, they could still become like Europe comfortable and rich and less millitaristic.

What a sweet thought.

So do the Indians and the US, but they got over it, at least on a "now working together"-type basis.
Do you mean the Chinese? Because I was unaware of there actually being any level of hostility between India and the USA - I know India were part of the non-aligned movement and all that, but I don't think they were ever seen as an enemy. (especially considering their cordial relations with much of Europe)

Fair point though, but it could go either way.

Maybe, but they have a history of emnity. Don't forget the war in the 1960's.

They did indeed. But this is, as you say, history. Both countries were led by much more... aggressive people back then, and now there are solid economic ties between them (the McDonalds' principle applies). I read a news article on the BBC website a while back where a reporter went to the contested Sino-Indian border that had been the cause of that war, today soldiers from both sides are able to pass freely, and the article described how they'd often meet eachother in no-man's land for a game of footie, send eachother cards on special occassions or invite eachother round for meals.

Because I was unaware of there actually being any level of hostility between India and the USA...
The US has sponsored Pakistan almost since Day One (to the point of Nixon condoning what amounted to something like genocide (http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001786.html) in today's Bangladesh).
Why do you think India flies Sukhois, and Pakistan F-16s...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=472279

There is a theory, the name of which I forget, which suggests that global hegemony can only exist for a certain amount of time before a new superpower comes around to bring back balance (or until the lone superpower collapses and falls back into the ranks of the major powers). I personally disagree that a state of hegemony currently exists, but it is certainly unarguable that there is only one superpower at present. The three powers which are cited to be capable of bringing about this balance are the European Union, India and, of course, China. Of the three I believe that India has the best chance of achieving this, though a Sino-Indian coalition does seem likely also. The EU is too fragmented and unstable to be capable of becoming a single, unified power for a long time, although some suggest that if it were to unite today it would already be a superpower.

i think the chatam islands will be the next lone superpower, with their proud moriori past and all the muttonbirds they will certainly rule the world with an iron fist. i just wanted to see if anyone was aware of them all the way down there.;)

The EU is too fragmented and unstable to be capable of becoming a single, unified power for a long time, although some suggest that if it were to unite today it would already be a superpower.

Last I heard its total GDP exceeds the US's. Also, surprisingly, economic mobility is greater in western Europe than the US due to better educational opportunities.

Thanks for opening my eyes. I never realized that all of this was taking place, that there aren't incredibly large coal deposits in Germany, that Gazprom raised prices for the EU and not the Ukraine, that terrorists managed to set together a satellite channel, etc.

np opening your eyes, have fun kicking the sh.t out of immigrants with racism meanwhile supporting terrorism which will eventually turn back and haunt you like it did to america.(which terrorists? you should know better)
I wonder where people will work when more factories like wolksvagens move to china for cheaper energy and work force.
Ah lets not forget the culture too, have fun as your native language degenerates and gets replaced by english in scientific texts as your publishers demand more english books less deutsch. Finally Catholic Rome is bringing Protestans Germans on their knees by penetrating them with anglosaxon culture eh? :p

I dont hate you or something, only despise your general blindness to your weaknessess. you are in trouble just the same as the rest of the world, and since Germany is backbone of EU, Eu is not going anywhere with this much internal problems.

-snip-
So...how would you define your political leanings?

Todays Lucky Number posted some things.

Where are you from?

türkiye, the country in the center of middle east and neighbor to Irak iran etc.

(inserting data: since cold war ally of Usa, member of nato, no we dont ride camels, no we dont have to marry, and no 4 wives thats arabs, no we have women rights actually we had women prime minister(blonde cutie but sucks at governing a country) had first female fighter pilot of world etc. short of it we are a country full of white, almond eyed, far east oriented Turks. Since most Usa residents here will jump to conclusion of imagining a brown skinned arabic shouting terorrist in their minds and automatically mark me to shoot :sniper: :mp5: )

My political leanings:
Balance in all things.
Enforcement of freedom or no freedom at all only causes destruction. Full fascism or liberalism is disaster. Capitalism and communism are equally worthless as to all religion and no religion or all racism or no knowlegde of nationalism. No questions should be asked as yes or no, there must always be a third option out of things. Thesiss- antithessis, I believe in synthesis.


I am for peace in my country and in all world, Patriotism for peace. The solution of problems must be diplomacy. This is a have to in modern age, we cannot afford any more cihats (jihad) or crusades because in modern economic system there is no place for pillage! and plunder! Every country has to work and produce and trade.
Economically: goverment planning and control in large nation endustries crutial for survival but full freedom of free market products( consumer goods) and peoples right to trade and get rich. China kinda uses it.
No racism but nationalism, preservation of culture and literature and improvation of it, not getting stuck at preserving and becoming a dinosaur. Kinda like japanese, they no longer wear kimonos except for sexual fantasies ı believe but developed manga (lol)
İt goes on and on and on like this in every subject.

türkiye, the country in the center of middle east and neighbor to Irak iran etc.

There's a lot of Turkish people here in Melbourne so I am quite familiar with them. In fact, I sit next to a Turkish woman at work (Ayten Ozbek). Turkish food is very popular here - you blokes make the world's best coffee!

Politically, Turkey and Indonesia are, imho, the 2 shining examples of secular governments with very large Islamic populations.

Cofee is the most preciousssss natural resource world has, I wonder when will people realise that the whole economy and the civilisation as we know of it would cease to exist without cofee!!!!!!!!! lol :p Its nice to see some people know about your culture because todays world people are as ignorant as they were hundreds of years ago and ignorance is the tool that evıl uses to sway peoples minds for endless war. To create hate etc. Especially as an ex empire its my dumbass nations fault that we came to be forgotten now, from the point of being envied as an multicultural empire of peace...hmm does that remind you something? And we are not just forgotten, the people that formed our empire turned against us with racial hate and weapons handed them by our neighbors. So now we are just a nation state. But even with their accumulated land they are not happy and like Armenians who control channels like Nbc are waging propaganda against turks. So they gain sympathy and funds. There are other examples but Im sorry to divert the thread from its point. Let me connect to the subject again:
I believe in the future America has the possibility of being divided into races and religions just as we did if the central goverment losess its grip. Just Like Ottoman empire did. Today it may seen distant and all sub groups forming america loyal, but so it did seemed in the past.
Cheap factory products from eurpoe replaced expensive handmade products of ottoman and in time its economic power declined with some lost wars at far corners of empire.
America rose to power with its endustrial potential being tapped by 2.WW.Then by trade embargos to England Usa pushed U.K. to economic decline.
In time Japan as a trade partner took over some of Usa's economy but as a partner. They bought things too. But in time things turned to japanese technology+ asian endustry+american marketing. NOw China is copying japanese and korean technology and marketing by himself. There is no place for anyone else in this except being the market thats buying products. And industrial decline.
So in 20 years time China will have its word being obeyed in world politics just by its economy and its army protecting it from any interference Usa or any others may try.

Never.

China is communist, as such it's run by a bunch of corrupt local-govenors who take from the poor and give to... themselves.

It's a social model that's been tried before and everytime the outcome is the same, decline followed by revolution.

Perhaps a neo-China will emerge with a democratic government and begin the process of reform but it would take at least 100 years to bring China up to the standard of a nation like the US or Great Britain.

Why do people keep calling China communist? Ach, wait, that's not why I'm here. Right, people think of China as a potential power because? It has major economic growth -from a low base- but so do loads of other nations, and nobody thinks of them as powers. So it's the population, which seems obvious. Right, but look at that, relative to, say Europe. Europe has hundreds of millions of people, but an aging population. Well, China's going the same way. How is China going to be a superpower a generation from now if it's a market-oriented nation supporting half a billion economically inactive old people? Every day's growth is answered by another city-worth of retirements or illnesses. Like other miracles, this one will fizzle-out before it amounts to much.

Why do people keep calling China communist?

Mostly because China calls itself communist.

http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~dee/MODCHINA/COMM.HTM

Of course by "communist" I mean any corrupt government run by incompetent buereaucrats who do their best to steal from the poor and give to themselves in which most of the industry happens to be owned by the government and not a utopian state in which property doesn't exist and all people share the means of production equally.

China fits the first definition to a tee.


Ach, wait, that's not why I'm here. Right, people think of China as a potential power because? It has major economic growth -from a low base- but so do loads of other nations, and nobody thinks of them as powers. So it's the population, which seems obvious. Right, but look at that, relative to, say Europe. Europe has hundreds of millions of people, but an aging population. Well, China's going the same way. How is China going to be a superpower a generation from now if it's a market-oriented nation supporting half a billion economically inactive old people? Every day's growth is answered by another city-worth of retirements or illnesses. Like other miracles, this one will fizzle-out before it amounts to much.

A good point, although I think corruption is a bigger deal than aging at least for the moment.

np opening your eyes, have fun kicking the sh.t out of immigrants with racism meanwhile supporting terrorism which will eventually turn back and haunt you like it did to america.(which terrorists? you should know better)
I wonder where people will work when more factories like wolksvagens move to china for cheaper energy and work force.
Ah lets not forget the culture too, have fun as your native language degenerates and gets replaced by english in scientific texts as your publishers demand more english books less deutsch. Finally Catholic Rome is bringing Protestans Germans on their knees by penetrating them with anglosaxon culture eh? :p

I dont hate you or something, only despise your general blindness to your weaknessess. you are in trouble just the same as the rest of the world, and since Germany is backbone of EU, Eu is not going anywhere with this much internal problems.Don't worry. I don't take advice from people that haven't got a clue what they're talking abut. ;)

Never.

China is communist, as such it's run by a bunch of corrupt local-govenors who take from the poor and give to... themselves.

It's a social model that's been tried before and everytime the outcome is the same, decline followed by revolution.

Perhaps a neo-China will emerge with a democratic government and begin the process of reform but it would take at least 100 years to bring China up to the standard of a nation like the US or Great Britain.
So sayed the russians about USA, a bunch of corrupt capitalist etc. I dont think it matters what a country claims to be, it is what it really is matters. A country may name itself democratic and capitalist and still can be run as a dictatorship. People living in the urban areas of russia are not happy for example and they openly express that their wish to return to old times. Some miss Stalin! Stalin I say! Some people in russia( and not that small so can be avoided) want someone like stalin back. those want someone like him and goverment control over economy Simply want it because they had a better life by then.
China goverment as opressive as it may be is putting food into plate of its many citizens who otherwise would starve. As long as a goverment does its duty right to govern its people its good. As long as a goverment doesnt do its job and officials neglect their duties that goverment is corrupt.

We those who live a life of luxury compared to the rest of world can hardly understand hunger. So think wice before claiming that china must be democratic etc before becoming a superpower. İts just cosmetic.

Mostly because China calls itself communist.And by that definition the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea would be democratic.

And by that definition the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea would be democratic.

Heh, thanks.

And by that definition the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea would be democratic.

No, I usually call them communist too, because I'm using the definition I mentioned before.

No, I usually call them communist too, because I'm using the definition I mentioned before.But you said that China is communist mostly because they call themselves so. By that standard, North Korea MUST be democratic!

Of course, if we go by your definition, then any dictatorship would be communist. Heck, Czarist Russia would have been communist.

No, I usually call them communist too, because I'm using the definition I mentioned before.
Because it suits you to ignore your contradiction, there, right?

If A calls itself a C, it must be true. However, if B calls itself a D, it cannot be, because E is also a D. Therefore B is C.

So sayed the russians about USA, a bunch of corrupt capitalist etc. I dont think it matters what a country claims to be, it is what it really is matters. A country may name itself democratic and capitalist and still can be run as a dictatorship. People living in the urban areas of russia are not happy for example and they openly express that their wish to return to old times. Some miss Stalin! Stalin I say! Some people in russia( and not that small so can be avoided) want someone like stalin back. those want someone like him and goverment control over economy Simply want it because they had a better life by then.
China goverment as opressive as it may be is putting food into plate of its many citizens who otherwise would starve. As long as a goverment does its duty right to govern its people its good. As long as a goverment doesnt do its job and officials neglect their duties that goverment is corrupt.

No, the US is not as corrupt as China

(see map)
http://www.answers.com/topic/political-corruption

We those who live a life of luxury compared to the rest of world can hardly understand hunger. So think wice before claiming that china must be democratic etc before becoming a superpower. İts just cosmetic.

See above.

I don't think that China will take away the seat of global hegemony from America and replace it. Why? Given the fact that there are several other powers rising, I don't think that America has been losing power. It still is strong as ever despite negative international opinion - it's just that there are more powerful nations appearing on the scene. America will probably hold onto it's influence for quite a while, but it will be challenged by the lesser international titans so that it cannot always have it's way.

USA will be a superpower for a long time but #1 will go to China. Simple demographics. USA would be like 2nd or 3rd (assuming EU integration will continue and they can reverse demographic trends.) superpower in like 50 years time, if current trends continue...

Firstly, I would like to congratulate myself for correctly guessing Today's Lucky Number's nationality as being Turkish, lol, it was the dotted 'I' in Israel that gave it away for me. I'd also like to add that I, as a citizen of Europe, have a lot of respect for his country and its liberal, secular, and democratic principles and that I support its entry into the EU.

Which brings me onto the EU. A lot of people like to spout doom and gloom about the EU, claiming that its aging population is leading to a potential economic and demographic collapse. And, although I agree that this is a serious danger, I believe that Europe has the capacity to survive as a power. Partly using the dynamism of its youth (as evidenced by the protests in France, if this emotion could be focused towards bettering Europe rather than petty labour protectionism), the innovative economies of New Europe, (especially Estonia, the only country for which perestroika did any kind of good) and of course the ability Europe has to attract freedom-loving immigrants from around the world who may be able to soften the demographic crisis.

However, I am not a hopeless optimist, I recognise that Europe will not be shooting to hyperpower status in the near future and that we should prepare for a very multi-polar world when America loses its position as top dog.

We those who live a life of luxury compared to the rest of world can hardly understand hunger. So think wice before claiming that china must be democratic etc before becoming a superpower. İts just cosmetic.
Where did that come from?

np opening your eyes, have fun kicking the sh.t out of immigrants with racism meanwhile supporting terrorism which will eventually turn back and haunt you like it did to america.(which terrorists? you should know better)
I wonder where people will work when more factories like wolksvagens move to china for cheaper energy and work force.
Ah lets not forget the culture too, have fun as your native language degenerates and gets replaced by english in scientific texts as your publishers demand more english books less deutsch. Finally Catholic Rome is bringing Protestans Germans on their knees by penetrating them with anglosaxon culture eh? :p

I dont hate you or something, only despise your general blindness to your weaknessess. you are in trouble just the same as the rest of the world, and since Germany is backbone of EU, Eu is not going anywhere with this much internal problems.

Maybe it'd be better if immigrants just leave. It is universal human manners afterall not to be where you arent wanted!
And if you think EU is so bad, I hope you will vote no if your country holds a referendum if they finish negotiations. Actually I hope you start a no campaign or something, tell all your friends to vote no, etc...

Firstly, I would like to congratulate myself for correctly guessing Today's Lucky Number's nationality as being Turkish, lol, it was the dotted 'I' in Israel that gave it away for me. I'd also like to add that I, as a citizen of Europe, have a lot of respect for his country and its liberal, secular, and democratic principles and that I support its entry into the EU.

Which brings me onto the EU. A lot of people like to spout doom and gloom about the EU, claiming that its aging population is leading to a potential economic and demographic collapse. And, although I agree that this is a serious danger, I believe that Europe has the capacity to survive as a power. Partly using the dynamism of its youth (as evidenced by the protests in France, if this emotion could be focused towards bettering Europe rather than petty labour protectionism), the innovative economies of New Europe, (especially Estonia, the only country for which perestroika did any kind of good) and of course the ability Europe has to attract freedom-loving immigrants from around the world who may be able to soften the demographic crisis.

However, I am not a hopeless optimist, I recognise that Europe will not be shooting to hyperpower status in the near future and that we should prepare for a very multi-polar world when America loses its position as top dog.


Freedom loving immigrants? HAHA. Are you american or something? EU's goal shouldnt be to become a superpower but simply to offer its citizens a good life and protect european heritage(s).

EU's goal shouldnt be to become a superpower but simply to offer its citizens a good life and protect european heritage(s).Nah, we've had enough of war.

Maybe it'd be better if immigrants just leave. It is universal human manners afterall not to be where you arent wanted!

It's universal human manners to welcome people to your home and to make friends with newcomers...

Nah, we've had enough of war.

How did you deduct this from my comment?

It's universal human manners to welcome people to your home and to make friends with newcomers...

They are welcome as tourists or students or etc...But you dont have to take
strangers to your home.

How did you deduct this from my comment?Europeans have a very rich heritage in killing eachother in the many wars they fought. It's heritage I don't miss very much.

...
People living in the urban areas of russia are not happy for example and they openly express that their wish to return to old times. Some miss Stalin! Stalin I say! Some people in russia( and not that small so can be avoided) want someone like stalin back. those want someone like him and goverment control over economy Simply want it because they had a better life by then.
...
I have to say that your example is patently wrong. I am living in Moscow. I know a lot of people from the other Russian cities. There is no strong current of public opinion in favour of returning to USSR-1984.

It is undeniable that a certain level of nostalgia for Stalin exists in Russia, but pro-Stalinist parties poll in the single digits.

Freedom loving immigrants? HAHA. Are you american or something? EU's goal shouldnt be to become a superpower but simply to offer its citizens a good life and protect european heritage(s).

As much as you wouldn't like to believe it Adolf, immigrants _do_ come to Europe seeking liberty. I am a Briton, and as such I understand that European heritage _is_ immigration and a belief in liberty and the rights of man. The Europe you are seeking is the Third Reich, and the immigrants and I will fight you if you attempt to bring it about.

But you said that China is communist mostly because they call themselves so. By that standard, North Korea MUST be democratic!

Of course, if we go by your definition, then any dictatorship would be communist. Heck, Czarist Russia would have been communist.

No, I mentioned that China was communist and then gave a definition of communism as
any corrupt government run by incompetent buereaucrats who do their best to steal from the poor and give to themselves in which most of the industry happens to be owned by the government.

I believe it is government ownership of industry and lack of democratic freedoms that define "communism" in today's world.

Czarist Russia is traditionally reffered to as some form of a monarchy because the means of production belongs to the king, not to the state.

Europeans have a very rich heritage in killing eachother in the many wars they fought. It's heritage I don't miss very much.

Me neither. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt be preserving "anything.".

As much as you wouldn't like to believe it Adolf, immigrants _do_ come to Europe seeking liberty. I am a Briton, and as such I understand that European heritage _is_ immigration and a belief in liberty and the rights of man. The Europe you are seeking is the Third Reich, and the immigrants and I will fight you if you attempt to bring it about.

Dont assume things. Makes you look funny. Anti-immigration =/= Adolf. Or do you call japaneese nazis? :rolleyes:
Most immigrants come here because of the money. They can earn here better. And it's not noble to dump all dirty jobs to immigrants and abuse them as cheap workers as it usually happens but people like you ignore...

No, I mentioned that China was communist and then gave a definition of communism as


I believe it is government ownership of industry and lack of democratic freedoms that define "communism" in today's world.

Czarist Russia is traditionally reffered to as some form of a monarchy because the means of production belongs to the king, not to the state.Your definition is flawed. It refers to a totalitarian state, and not a communist one. Government ownership of industry coupled with a lack of democratic freedoms are by no means a sufficient definition of communism. By your definition, one could argue that Chile became a communist state after the coup against the socialist government of Allende, and that's absolute bullshit.

Your definition comes closer to feudalism than communism.

Me neither. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt be preserving "anything.".It does mean that we shouldn't be preserving everything. Or do you have a computer that allows you to read in runes instead of a Roman alphabet? Or do you use a fork? Jeez, the Döner Kebap is a traditional Berliner food by now, just as the croissant became French.

...

Czarist Russia is traditionally reffered to as some form of a monarchy because the means of production belongs to the king, not to the state.
That's incorrect -- there was a separate Ministry of State Properties in Russia, and the plants etc. weren't regarded as the Tsar's private property at all.

Your definition is flawed. It refers to a totalitarian state, and not a communist one. Government ownership of industry coupled with a lack of democratic freedoms are by no means a sufficient definition of communism. By your definition, one could argue that Chile became a communist state after the coup against the socialist government of Allende, and that's absolute bullshit.

Your definition comes closer to feudalism than communism.

what definition would you prefer?

hint: if under your definition neither China nor Russia are or ever have been communist, I'm not buying it.

hint: if under your definition neither China nor Russia are or ever have been communist, I'm not buying it.

Ask yourself; Are/were the workers in post-revolution China and Russia ever empowered?

If not, they can't be communist, i'm afraid.

Ask yourself; Are/were the workers in post-revolution China and Russia ever empowered?

If not, they can't be communist, i'm afraid.

*shakes fist*

You beat me to it. Why, WHY did I have to go to the bathroom!?

what definition would you prefer?

hint: if under your definition neither China nor Russia are or ever have been communist, I'm not buying it.Technically, they weren't. But if you go by the USSR's standard, then China currently most certainly isn't. They were totalitarian states, no doubt, and China is still pretty bad on the civil liberties record, but that doesn't make you communist. China has become more of a state corporation and completely lacks a planned economy. And there is certainly such a thing as privately owned companies. The big ones just tend to be in government control.

Dont assume things. Makes you look funny. Anti-immigration =/= Adolf. Or do you call japaneese nazis? :rolleyes:
Most immigrants come here because of the money. They can earn here better. And it's not noble to dump all dirty jobs to immigrants and abuse them as cheap workers as it usually happens but people like you ignore...

I'm not assuming anything, I am equating your ideal Europe to the Third Reich based on attitudes expressed in your previous posts. I called you Adolf as a cheap insult that I am not even particularly ashamed of.

The 'dirty jobs' that immigrants do are no worse than the jobs our grandparents did, and thus I object to the labelling of the work as being somehow dehumanising or degrading, it is honest work. What I am saying is dehumanising and degrading is the xenophobic attitude held by the ruling echelons of European society that legislates against the immigrants' freedom to work, a freedom that was as old as paid labour itself, untill the raise of nationalism since the 19th century removed it.

And yes, I am critical of the racist attitude the Japanese state, and to a large extent, the Japanese people, take towards foreigners and immigrants. I am no hypocrit.

many in the government don't seem to realise that America's moral high ground always was its core asset

True. I remember growing up thinking that America is good (meaning always good, stands for goodness and all that warm and fuzzy stuff...). That soft power is being eroded fast.

Reg the OP, China will not be a lone superpower. They have lots of challenges on the way. The huge non-performing loans problems and the poor fiscal structure, the poor IP rights situation etc. I can identify three problems that are going to be big challenges for them.

1. The "One China" theory of the CPC. By making this theory as the ideology of the country, the commies have effectively painted themselves into a corner. They CANNOT compromise on Taiwan without a loss of legitimacy and this gives other countries enormous leverage.

2. The inevitable increase of aspirations for political freedoms of the economically free Chinese. The CPC is giving a tradeoff of economic freedom for political freedom and it is currently all hunky dory, but for how long. Can Hu Jintao crackdown on protestors like Deng did, if a Tianenmen were to occur? Last time it was just the students, what if the workers join in this time, tired of all the restrictions that the CPC imposes on them ?

3. Demographics pressure. They are greying faster (in absolute numbers) than any other country. They will become old before they become rich and this will impose severe costs on the social structure with a big pyramid where one Chinese man supporting lots of elders in his family. The change in demographics to older people should also hopefully mellow down the hegemonistic and uber nationalistic streak in the Chinese citizens that we can see now.

Reg the larger picture, the future will be multi-polar with a dominating country in each region, the US-EU combo overall, Brazil in South America, India in the subcontinent, China in the far east, Russia in central Asia etc everybody plugged in firmly to the global system so much so that conflicts will be counter productive to all parties involved.

I actually have hopes for peace and harmony :p

I'm not assuming anything, I am equating your ideal Europe to the Third Reich based on attitudes expressed in your previous posts. I called you Adolf as a cheap insult that I am not even particularly ashamed of.

The 'dirty jobs' that immigrants do are no worse than the jobs our grandparents did, and thus I object to the labelling of the work as being somehow dehumanising or degrading, it is honest work. What I am saying is dehumanising and degrading is the xenophobic attitude held by the ruling echelons of European society that legislates against the immigrants' freedom to work, a freedom that was as old as paid labour itself, untill the raise of nationalism since the 19th century removed it.

And yes, I am critical of the racist attitude the Japanese state, and to a large extent, the Japanese people, take towards foreigners and immigrants. I am no hypocrit.

3rd reich was violent, believed in racial supremacy, killed jews, gays etc etc. I DONT support any of these. You are assuming too much. And cheap insults only show your lack of debating skills.
There is always a line when you are like someone. You might equate my anti-immigration views to Adolf Hitler, but that's just as stupid as equating yourself to Hitler as well, because you both breath.

3rd reich... believed in racial supremacy

Ah, much like yourself.

Do you mean the Chinese? Because I was unaware of there actually being any level of hostility between India and the USA - I know India were part of the non-aligned movement and all that, but I don't think they were ever seen as an enemy. (especially considering their cordial relations with much of Europe)


Relationship of US and India before 9-11 have been mostly cold with some very bitter moments and some high points.

The lowest of the low points would be in 1971, when US sent its seventh fleet to the Bay of Bengal in a hostile move, ostensibly to intimidate India from pressing on with the Bangladesh liberation war to its logical conclusion (decisive defeat of Pakistani army in west Pakistan). Declassified official documents tell us even more frightening stuff like Kissinger asking China to open another front to save Paki army in Bangladesh and assuring Zhou En Lai that US will support China if Soviets attack China for attacking India.

In short, US under Nixon and Kissinger was willing to go to war against India to save Pakistan. If that is not hostile, then what is?

The continous propping up of Pakistan by the US would always be a sore point. Many in India think that it is part of the containment strategy - a legacy of the British imperialists who thought they needed a pliant client state in the subcontinent.

Well, I strongly suspect it will be the next superpower, and when it does, things will get much worse. I probably won't survive long in such a future.

I wrote never since India has just as great a chance as becoming a superpower as China.

I can't believe people think that somehow India and China are already superpowers because of their immense population and relatively robust economies. Let me tell you something, it takes a bit more than that to be considered a superpower.

And whoever said India was closer to being a superpower because they have the bomb...

Only 60% of the Indian population can read. That means 350 million Indians are illiterate. 25% (250 000 000) of Indians live below the poverty line. They spend $19 billion annually on their military. Their relative strength for projecting military power outside of their region? Zip.

Let's look at China. China has a 90% literacy rate and only has 150 million people living below the poverty line. Its GDP per capita is nearly double that of India and it's growing at a faster rate. Their reported military budget is $81.48 billion - most of which is aimed at maintaining and paying the wages of a large troop-based army (although they are finally investing more into their navy, giving them more projection).

But does any of that equate to being a superpower?

99% of the United Kingdom population can read. Their GDP per capita is nearly $30,900, although growing at a much slower rate than China or India (likely due to the balanced division of wealth, whereas in both China and India it is just beginnng to balance). And they spend $42 billion dollars on their military annually - not to maintain a large number of troops but to maintain a diverse military aimed at being capable of projecting strength overseas.

Likewise, 99% of the United States can read. They've got a GDP of $42,000 with a faster rate of growth than the UK (though still smaller than India). Their military spending is $518 billion dollars a year.

These nations are not superpowers. They are populous and their economies are growing, but that's about it.

ın northern european countries like Norway racism is rising and thats not good for anyone. That raises counter racism in there and in here which makes it hard to put some sense in those hard heads.
And I suggest that if you want to preserve your culture and your race you first put a stop at incest! Thats a humanity crime.
As for immigrants, what do you expect them to be? Most of those people have low education to no education and willingly do worst jobs, some those returned after a few years quickly died of cancer because their bosses used them to clean waste tanks with just their daily clothes on, fully knowing results! At least giving them the cheapest protection would be humane!
As for the highly trained Turkish immigrants, those who do computer programming and industrial desing etc you dont even notice them because they are no different than you or the next guy!
The problem is if you dont want immigrants dont let them come, but you let them come because you need them and then treat them like sh.t! I have a friend who is a computer programmer called to finland to work with good numbers on paycheck and people at immigrant breau tried to treat him like they tried to treat other immigrants. Which of course ended in the humiliation of official by my friend for being a racist sob. another more human offical came and apologised and all was set right. What I mean is to a degree people always look down on those who do chore jobs all around the world. but why would you try to look down on someone with elite skills and culture if you are not racist?
whatever, Im not saying that you are a racist of nazi etc. but even Hitlar wast a nazi once and he became one. He was a silent wanna be artist who didnt got accepted to art school. The next could easily be you or someone you hate. In other case you are in trouble if other side is stronger. DO NOT CREATE ENEMIES, ADD THEM TO YOURSELF! and grow stronger! Forget the european heritage of ''kill them to the last man' WEst instists on hitting its head to rock wheras east avoids it. I accept that sometimes rock gives in first, but not always.:headbang: :D Any north european that doesnt like turkiye, listen to mezarkabul(pentagram) a turkish heavy metal band and have some headbang.

As for Turkiye EU relationships, I believe that Eu has to grow and become a superpower 'just to survive' the hardships future will bring. Eu nations have been seeing us as enemy for a good 1000 years.Its hard to think otherwise with different religions etc. But I wonder, werent all europeans nations fighting for same time? same religion? no catholics and protestants kill each other even this day. Paganism on the rise, and dead sea scrolls deny any religious instution. And denying them is denying Christ. I personally believe that Christ preached peace and love, not Vatican sytle crusades as I believe Muhammed did preach peace and love, not politics and war. All muslims accept Christ as the one before Muhammed but are enraged to Vatican and Roman empire for turning a One God only religion into reincarnation of old pagan beliefs like mithra and raising Christ to godhood.
One thing Im angry about Eu membership appliance of Turkiye is that our leaders are a bunch of spineless ..zfvsdbhf's and spend huge amounts of money in propaganda that going into Eu will make us rich in one day and everyone will be having holiday in capital cities of europe having all day sex. LOL !!! But thankfully not all population is that stupid, just many of them are =(

These nations are not superpowers. They are populous and their economies are growing, but that's about it.
So was America. Being the industry giant of world makes you 'the' superpower. Not being democratic etc. that was just what USA made its propaganda on 'we are the good guys not communist dogs!' they said ''choose us and be free, buy and sell as you like'' they said and assasinated or couped those countries didnt liked or believed those things. So did USSR, they poured a force of 300.000+whatever you can dream+nukes on our (turkiye) border and asked 'nicely' if we would consider becoming comrades :p Our leaders of time chickened and ran to Us of a for help and accepted many bad contracts. So I dont like either and by telling this I want to come to this:
By then America's selling point as superpower was market freedom, but now China is using the system against the system. Everything walmart sales in america is made in china. walmart gets a cut from your pocket and sends the rests to china. So it is in the rest of the world. They are dominating all markets, europa and usa had to wage war just to enter new markets in past years but now china enters them freely!!!
America had a counter choice that made people chose it over the other bad guy, the USSR. China doesnt. They are by themselves in this second generation. ı mean of course they will have opponents but they dont have a opposite 'IDEOLOGY' because practically they are trading freely.

And by the way we are speaking about superpowers but what the hell is a superpower? I mean of course everyone knows what it is but are we talking about the same thing? Whats your description of it people? a big economy? high income? high tech? market domiantion? political effect? world policing =PP ?

I say 'never' because I believe we're shifting from a world with a singular superpower to a multi-polar international system where we have more than one major power and a balance of power not skewed towards any one major nation.

I have a lot of friends who are Chinese nationals and having spent a good amount of time in both the cities and the countryside, I can say that the things I've seen don't impress me as much as they do others, simply because the raw energy of the Chinese economy is not backed up by the institutions that can make it work in the long-run.

In the 1900s, both Japan and Argentina were up-and-comers. One (Japan) continued to grow, the other (Argentina) faltered because it lacked the sort of institutional legitimacy to keep things going.

Nobody doubt's China's potential, but are we looking at a potential Japan or a potential Argentina?

As for Turkiye EU relationships, I believe that Eu has to grow and become a superpower 'just to survive' the hardships future will bring.
The EU can go at its own pace with this. And there need to be three conditions met:
1) No more of this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4325347.stm).
2) No more of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301).
3) No more of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy) (although that's up to the EU, and not Turkey).

So was America. Being the industry giant of world makes you 'the' superpower. Not being democratic etc. that was just what USA made its propaganda on 'we are the good guys not communist dogs!' they said ''choose us and be free, buy and sell as you like'' they said and assasinated or couped those countries didnt liked or believed those things. So did USSR, they poured a force of 300.000+whatever you can dream+nukes on our (turkiye) border and asked 'nicely' if we would consider becoming comrades :p Our leaders of time chickened and ran to Us of a for help and accepted many bad contracts. So I dont like either and by telling this I want to come to this:
By then America's selling point as superpower was market freedom, but now China is using the system against the system. Everything walmart sales in america is made in china. walmart gets a cut from your pocket and sends the rests to china. So it is in the rest of the world. They are dominating all markets, europa and usa had to wage war just to enter new markets in past years but now china enters them freely!!!
America had a counter choice that made people chose it over the other bad guy, the USSR. China doesnt. They are by themselves in this second generation. ı mean of course they will have opponents but they dont have a opposite 'IDEOLOGY' because practically they are trading freely.

And by the way we are speaking about superpowers but what the hell is a superpower? I mean of course everyone knows what it is but are we talking about the same thing? Whats your description of it people? a big economy? high income? high tech? market domiantion? political effect? world policing =PP ?
Not once did I mention democracy in my statement. I mentioned economics and welfare. I'm talking about the actual people of these places, and whether or not the population befits a superpower. Sure, being an industrial power makes you an economic superpower - but a "superpower" is a mix of economics, politics, and military. And their population pretty much has to reflect it for a government to become a superpower because a disorderly/stupid/poor population -never- benefits a government in the long run.

These places are NOT superpowers because they cannot DO anything. Their militaries are entirely devoted to putting down revolts and maintaining order. Being a Superpower means you are an economic, military, and political giant. China may be an economic giant, but its military and political prowess fall short of expectations for a country with so much potential. Same with Russia - they may be a political giant, but militarily and economically they are failures.

In half a century, maybe they will be. But I expect they'll have to undergo massive government reforms so that they can free their militaries up to project power rather than hold it, until they are respected in the International community at large as leaders, and (this is the most important) they need to become influential in the RIGHT countries - the ones where the money and power is.

Cool.... its about time someone else stepped up to the plate....it gets boring being a "super power" all the time speaking of plates I gotta order some super power specials from my dim sum buddy . Maybe gas prices will go down . lets go China ..stop slackin off !

The EU can go at its own pace with this. And there need to be three conditions met:
1) No more of this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4325347.stm).
2) No more of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301).
3) No more of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy) (although that's up to the EU, and not Turkey).


France would have to move to Mars or something..then maybe the EU has a chance..:D

It won't be. The nature of the world economy guarantees that the world will be primarily dominated by the US, China, India, and the EU with lesser powers like Brazil, Russia, and Indonesia following closely behind.

However, in the even that there is one superpower India has major advantages over China that would place it in a better position to become a superpower, and in the event that the two are in direct competition a la the Cold War India will ultimately win. If anything, India would be the most powerful nation followed by the US and then China. China cannot be dominant with its current form of government, and it especially needs to take drastic action to correct the abuses of limitless growth and the displacement caused by industrialization.

However, in the even that there is one superpower India has major advantages over China that would place it in a better position to become a superpower, and in the event that the two are in direct competition a la the Cold War India will ultimately win. If anything, India would be the most powerful nation followed by the US and then China. China cannot be dominant with its current form of government, and it especially needs to take drastic action to correct the abuses of limitless growth and the displacement caused by industrialization.
The form of government that India has does not matter. India's government cannot provide the infrastructure for having India ever come above where it's at. Its people are poor and are staying that way because the government keeps them stupid. All of the wealth is kept in key families. That's not a superpower. India is a modern feudal society. Yes, they have made a lot of advancements, but the country as a whole is crippled by the disadvantages the government has let take hold. It's America, but thousands of times worse.

The Chinese need to give up territory and stay communist but work on the proper division of wealth and labour. They can survive as a communist country, but they need to let go of their imperialist tendancies - it works for the States cause their territories don't mind being American. It doesn't work so well when they rebel. Then they need to practice diplomacy and basically dominate the Eastern hemisphere as a friendly giant.

The form of government that India has does not matter.

Whut ? Are you actually saying that a functioning representative liberal (by Indian standards) democracy does not matter (as opposed to a theocracy or totalitarian states) ?


India's government cannot provide the infrastructure for having India ever come above where it's at.

Infrastructure can be built.

Its people are poor

Lol.

Poverty is a recent phenomenon. 200 years of poverty against two millenia otherwise. As growth is sustained, poverty will eventually be eradicated as it has been the case since independance.

1947 - more than 50 % poor. 1980s - 40% and now it is about 25% and reducing fast inspite of a tripling of population since 1947.

and are staying that way because the government keeps them stupid.
On one hand the govt is incompetent to even provide infrastructure but on the other hand it is this super efficient in "keeping people stupid"...lol..

Do you even know of the amount of newspaper circulation in India. There is absolutely no censorship and the press is the free-est in the region and would even compare favorably with many developed nations.

All of the wealth is kept in key families. That's not a superpower.

It is like that in every friggin country. In fact, amongst developing countries, India has a better GINI coefficient, but I suspect you would not be knowing what a GINI coeff is and I am not about to spoon feed you. You can look it up yourselves.

India is a modern feudal society.

Lol..have you even been to India recently ?

Nobody doubt's China's potential, but are we looking at a potential Japan or a potential Argentina?

This is a very good point. Argentina should have been able to follow an economic course similar to Australia with a powerful labour movement and strong primary production, but failed. Personally I think it's likely that China will sustain decent economic growth, but there is no way we can be certain.

India is a modern feudal society.

Well I've heard of Japan described as a modern feudal society, so it can't be all bad.

The EU can go at its own pace with this. And there need to be three conditions met:
1) No more of this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4325347.stm).
2) No more of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301).
3) No more of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy) (although that's up to the EU, and not Turkey).

We watched here in our homes that european police beat the sh.t out of european women, people burning cars in france (the same france thats brags about democracy and human rights) and other events. With a degree of smirk in our faces. Why? because you are always sublminally saying that we are brown skinned arabic(by the way arabians are whiter in skin than europeans) mindless animals that must be controlled by our european white anglos saxon christian masters :p Im so fed off. You say you know whats best for us just as you did at the end of WW1, dividing ottoman into tiny tiny states formed of religion and race and wanted us to sign treaties accepting slavery. What did we do? Recreated whole armies from ashes and defeated anyone dared to invade us. Losing most of our land but retaining anatolia and giving all the crushed nations of the world hope and will to fight for freedom against any imperalistic war machine that may wish to enslave them.

even 600 years ago all people living in these lands were treated equally. whenever europe says to tr about democracy and human rights thats a message to enemies of the state to act and nothing more. those enemies send in provacateurs into non violent protests and destroy shops and harm civillian property to pull the police forces into action and turn it into chaos. They are parts of highly organised, drug money and international black money fed terrorist organizations. Those organizations have connections to bureaus in england under such names as ''xyz human rights project etc'' and connected to other organisations that train and organise terror in urban areas of country under the cover of humanitarian aid. it goes on like this but last journalists spoke of those things as ım telling you were assasinated. As for Orhan Pamuk he is a puppet, he was created by sell-pen organisations and used as found necessary to further the cause to destabilize turkiye. In turkiye people are not treated by their race, sex, language, beliefs etc. and it is in our anayasa 'motherlaw' that cannot be changed. not just in law but in practice too, in turkiye armenians live in peace and prosperity as any other citizen, and when economy suffers they suffer the same.
So what really harms democracy and human rights in turkiye is terrorism. It has to be destroyed. When Eu politicians say that we should stop anti teror operatios they mean let terror grow and when they say seek peaceful negotiations they mean sit down to the table with terrorist and give them your land peacefully, dont make it any harder for them to divide your country!!!
Turkiye was never racist, we were the ones that saved Jews from Spain when europeans massacred them and yet again in 2. WW we saved as much as we can, because we treat all humans equally. In turkiye gypsies live too, in turkiye each year some of europeans that came for holiday decide to settle down and live and they become citizens. There is a german village at the south of country ! but they live like we do and mix with us. We have arabic and persian citizens who love to speak turkish and cannot be seperated form others. We have half russian citizens, setteld down scottish world body building champions (scottish people love turks and turkiye) settled down japanese proffessors who chose to become turk and musluman (some of the best mathematicians of world) we have some new immigrants from africa that live freely. In africa there are black people(with eloborate moustaches :D kinda like ottoman trademark) claiming their turkish heritage that comes to them from old time turkish sailors and when I see them on tv my heart feels warm over such friendship even from long distance. There are turkish americans at america, there are those who accept indians as of turkish nomad culture and blood (even if its not)A few months ago I was laughing hard to see a english couple wawing turkish flag on their jetski ! Tom Hanks and many hollywood artist spend most of their free time here and mixing and talking with local populace.

So what the fu...k are europeans talking about racism and oppression against kürts in turkiye???? in 1990 our prime minister was a kürt! and we have terorism problem for well 40 years. Its roots are in english planes dropping propaganda papers calling people in urban areas to rise up and take arms agains turkiye republic because they are faithless heretics and enemy of islam! Just because we seperated religion and business of state. Turkiyes problem is terrorism and Eu and USA is backing terorists up! terror organisations killed businessman for 40 years that tried to set up any kind of industry at the far east of turkiye. They destroyed entire villages and killed turkish population to take their place. Mined vast farmlands and shot any doctor and teacher goverment sent there but accepted foreign agents. The locals were forced to part with their 14 year old girls who were taken to thee mountains and raped then given drugs and a kalashnikof and sent guns blazing down on turkish civillian and soldiers. YOu have no idea about terror we faced and on many fronts defeated. And all this time our politicians did nothing to stop it, stopping army to take any action against their growth. Eu's public is given false images and fed with anti turk, anti- musluman propaganda. Like they dont know the human rights violations were made by the hands of our own police was controlled by corrupt officials that served to america in the cold war. In the name of communist hunting everything else was left to decay. To what end? today we have a communist party acting freely (to no effect because people no longer care about communism but they are allowed to exist) so everything was about USa and USsr having some cold war. I wished those two nuked each other long time ago and left world alone.

Any who does so has to face us in the field of war to get it from our cold dead hands. And I assure you we will never lose a battle thats fought for right causes, for freedom and peace in our lands. This will never change we will never be destroyed or bow to anyone. So either accept this of face humiliation by defeat again.
Today when we offer our hand as allies and mean it you better take it because best deals are made when both sides are on their feet. And when someone falls they no longer have friends. believe eventually all human race must become as one and for this we must overcome our differances and ages of dogmas.
Those insist on staying same, not growing up will wither and die in the future of world. My country has many options laying before it, we can become allies with anyone,USA(we are still allies but today people are asking to what cost?we are the ones always giving and US always taking) Israel, EU, Russia,China(china has an estimated 200 million turks in its population although this number is officially below 100 millon), japan(we have cultural ties), Korea(we are partners in defence contracts), turkish countries(nearly all ex USSR countries are turkish even with efforts of Russia to make them slavs) and we have cultural ties with other asian nations such as mongols, Hindistan, Pakistan, persians, arabs, Brazil and any south american country, African countries, anyone imaginable.
What I mean is dont be surprised if you see a mixed coalition of asian-african-south american and middle eastern nations forming their own superpower(kinda) to take their place in the multipolar world. Because against the popular belief there is much untapped and unrecognised power in th world .

In the end I believe if there would be no single superpower but many powers the human race will progress faster because it will be harder to crush and hold small nations under control with their vast resources because there will be others in action against superpowers. Heeh heh heh :D My nation is not small, only lazy after being with america so long and leaving political ropes to them in cold war. When we destroy terror and fully grasp it back it would be good to see that they raise their butts like I do and start working on a bigger better civilization instead of taking pride in what we already did :p

Alright then Turkey, if you're so big, don't bother calling us for the next world war. :P *I am joking btw*

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, the USA could have been a Superpower for the next 50 years, but can't now because they've lost thier "Superman" image (blame that on Vietnam films and there being no WMDs in Iraq).

China won't be a superpower either- there are too many problems for it to have a Massively Global Influence.

No, I dont think there will be any real Superpowers, we'll just find ourseleves back to 1914.

Shame. (WERE ALL GOING TO DIE!)

Regardless of whether the US needs to change, China will not become the world superpower. Firstly, it can't support its own rate of growth. The cost for maintaining its current infrastructure and building more at an incredible rate is going to tax its economy very heavily indeed, and possibly wreck it. It has to feed its massive demand for oil as well, and oil is a finite resource. Unless it begins switching to nuclear or hydrogen power, its economy will cease to exist as soon as oil runs low. Secondly, its population support is not very high in the countryside. It is a repressive state; that is the truth, and thus its days are numbered. I cannot immediately bring to mind a society that gained superpower status WHILE being repressive.

dont worry we will protect human race in 3.rd WW when aliens and canadians try to invade and steal all cows O_o'!
lets just nuke earth till its crust melts and colonize moon(in correct order, I mean if we nuke it before we clonize moon? oh my...)

dont worry we will protect human race in 3.rd WW when aliens and canadians try to invade and steal all cows O_o'!
lets just nuke earth till its crust melts and colonize moon(in correct order, I mean if we nuke it before we clonize moon? oh my...)

Incorrect, Canada is already ready to take Turkey over.
They're gonna rename it Chicken.
Its true.

ın northern european countries like Norway racism is rising and thats not good for anyone. That raises counter racism in there and in here which makes it hard to put some sense in those hard heads.
And I suggest that if you want to preserve your culture and your race you first put a stop at incest! Thats a humanity crime.
As for immigrants, what do you expect them to be? Most of those people have low education to no education and willingly do worst jobs, some those returned after a few years quickly died of cancer because their bosses used them to clean waste tanks with just their daily clothes on, fully knowing results! At least giving them the cheapest protection would be humane!
As for the highly trained Turkish immigrants, those who do computer programming and industrial desing etc you dont even notice them because they are no different than you or the next guy!
The problem is if you dont want immigrants dont let them come, but you let them come because you need them and then treat them like sh.t! I have a friend who is a computer programmer called to finland to work with good numbers on paycheck and people at immigrant breau tried to treat him like they tried to treat other immigrants. Which of course ended in the humiliation of official by my friend for being a racist sob. another more human offical came and apologised and all was set right. What I mean is to a degree people always look down on those who do chore jobs all around the world. but why would you try to look down on someone with elite skills and culture if you are not racist?
whatever, Im not saying that you are a racist of nazi etc. but even Hitlar wast a nazi once and he became one. He was a silent wanna be artist who didnt got accepted to art school. The next could easily be you or someone you hate. In other case you are in trouble if other side is stronger. DO NOT CREATE ENEMIES, ADD THEM TO YOURSELF! and grow stronger! Forget the european heritage of ''kill them to the last man' WEst instists on hitting its head to rock wheras east avoids it. I accept that sometimes rock gives in first, but not always.:headbang: :D Any north european that doesnt like turkiye, listen to mezarkabul(pentagram) a turkish heavy metal band and have some headbang.

As for Turkiye EU relationships, I believe that Eu has to grow and become a superpower 'just to survive' the hardships future will bring. Eu nations have been seeing us as enemy for a good 1000 years.Its hard to think otherwise with different religions etc. But I wonder, werent all europeans nations fighting for same time? same religion? no catholics and protestants kill each other even this day. Paganism on the rise, and dead sea scrolls deny any religious instution. And denying them is denying Christ. I personally believe that Christ preached peace and love, not Vatican sytle crusades as I believe Muhammed did preach peace and love, not politics and war. All muslims accept Christ as the one before Muhammed but are enraged to Vatican and Roman empire for turning a One God only religion into reincarnation of old pagan beliefs like mithra and raising Christ to godhood.
One thing Im angry about Eu membership appliance of Turkiye is that our leaders are a bunch of spineless ..zfvsdbhf's and spend huge amounts of money in propaganda that going into Eu will make us rich in one day and everyone will be having holiday in capital cities of europe having all day sex. LOL !!! But thankfully not all population is that stupid, just many of them are =(


Put a stop to incest? Huh? Do you know what incest means? I think it's very very rare here and illegal in most cases.
And I agree with you, we shouldnt let immigrants in the 1st place.

We watched here in our homes that european police beat the sh.t out of european women, people burning cars in france (the same france thats brags about democracy and human rights) and other events. With a degree of smirk in our faces. Why? because you are always sublminally saying that we are brown skinned arabic(by the way arabians are whiter in skin than europeans) mindless animals that must be controlled by our european white anglos saxon christian masters :p Im so fed off. You say you know whats best for us just as you did at the end of WW1, dividing ottoman into tiny tiny states formed of religion and race and wanted us to sign treaties accepting slavery. What did we do? Recreated whole armies from ashes and defeated anyone dared to invade us. Losing most of our land but retaining anatolia and giving all the crushed nations of the world hope and will to fight for freedom against any imperalistic war machine that may wish to enslave them.

even 600 years ago all people living in these lands were treated equally. whenever europe says to tr about democracy and human rights thats a message to enemies of the state to act and nothing more. those enemies send in provacateurs into non violent protests and destroy shops and harm civillian property to pull the police forces into action and turn it into chaos. They are parts of highly organised, drug money and international black money fed terrorist organizations. Those organizations have connections to bureaus in england under such names as ''xyz human rights project etc'' and connected to other organisations that train and organise terror in urban areas of country under the cover of humanitarian aid. it goes on like this but last journalists spoke of those things as ım telling you were assasinated. As for Orhan Pamuk he is a puppet, he was created by sell-pen organisations and used as found necessary to further the cause to destabilize turkiye. In turkiye people are not treated by their race, sex, language, beliefs etc. and it is in our anayasa 'motherlaw' that cannot be changed. not just in law but in practice too, in turkiye armenians live in peace and prosperity as any other citizen, and when economy suffers they suffer the same.
So what really harms democracy and human rights in turkiye is terrorism. It has to be destroyed. When Eu politicians say that we should stop anti teror operatios they mean let terror grow and when they say seek peaceful negotiations they mean sit down to the table with terrorist and give them your land peacefully, dont make it any harder for them to divide your country!!!
Turkiye was never racist, we were the ones that saved Jews from Spain when europeans massacred them and yet again in 2. WW we saved as much as we can, because we treat all humans equally. In turkiye gypsies live too, in turkiye each year some of europeans that came for holiday decide to settle down and live and they become citizens. There is a german village at the south of country ! but they live like we do and mix with us. We have arabic and persian citizens who love to speak turkish and cannot be seperated form others. We have half russian citizens, setteld down scottish world body building champions (scottish people love turks and turkiye) settled down japanese proffessors who chose to become turk and musluman (some of the best mathematicians of world) we have some new immigrants from africa that live freely. In africa there are black people(with eloborate moustaches :D kinda like ottoman trademark) claiming their turkish heritage that comes to them from old time turkish sailors and when I see them on tv my heart feels warm over such friendship even from long distance. There are turkish americans at america, there are those who accept indians as of turkish nomad culture and blood (even if its not)A few months ago I was laughing hard to see a english couple wawing turkish flag on their jetski ! Tom Hanks and many hollywood artist spend most of their free time here and mixing and talking with local populace.

So what the fu...k are europeans talking about racism and oppression against kürts in turkiye???? in 1990 our prime minister was a kürt! and we have terorism problem for well 40 years. Its roots are in english planes dropping propaganda papers calling people in urban areas to rise up and take arms agains turkiye republic because they are faithless heretics and enemy of islam! Just because we seperated religion and business of state. Turkiyes problem is terrorism and Eu and USA is backing terorists up! terror organisations killed businessman for 40 years that tried to set up any kind of industry at the far east of turkiye. They destroyed entire villages and killed turkish population to take their place. Mined vast farmlands and shot any doctor and teacher goverment sent there but accepted foreign agents. The locals were forced to part with their 14 year old girls who were taken to thee mountains and raped then given drugs and a kalashnikof and sent guns blazing down on turkish civillian and soldiers. YOu have no idea about terror we faced and on many fronts defeated. And all this time our politicians did nothing to stop it, stopping army to take any action against their growth. Eu's public is given false images and fed with anti turk, anti- musluman propaganda. Like they dont know the human rights violations were made by the hands of our own police was controlled by corrupt officials that served to america in the cold war. In the name of communist hunting everything else was left to decay. To what end? today we have a communist party acting freely (to no effect because people no longer care about communism but they are allowed to exist) so everything was about USa and USsr having some cold war. I wished those two nuked each other long time ago and left world alone.

Any who does so has to face us in the field of war to get it from our cold dead hands. And I assure you we will never lose a battle thats fought for right causes, for freedom and peace in our lands. This will never change we will never be destroyed or bow to anyone. So either accept this of face humiliation by defeat again.
Today when we offer our hand as allies and mean it you better take it because best deals are made when both sides are on their feet. And when someone falls they no longer have friends. believe eventually all human race must become as one and for this we must overcome our differances and ages of dogmas.
Those insist on staying same, not growing up will wither and die in the future of world. My country has many options laying before it, we can become allies with anyone,USA(we are still allies but today people are asking to what cost?we are the ones always giving and US always taking) Israel, EU, Russia,China(china has an estimated 200 million turks in its population although this number is officially below 100 millon), japan(we have cultural ties), Korea(we are partners in defence contracts), turkish countries(nearly all ex USSR countries are turkish even with efforts of Russia to make them slavs) and we have cultural ties with other asian nations such as mongols, Hindistan, Pakistan, persians, arabs, Brazil and any south american country, African countries, anyone imaginable.
What I mean is dont be surprised if you see a mixed coalition of asian-african-south american and middle eastern nations forming their own superpower(kinda) to take their place in the multipolar world. Because against the popular belief there is much untapped and unrecognised power in th world .

In the end I believe if there would be no single superpower but many powers the human race will progress faster because it will be harder to crush and hold small nations under control with their vast resources because there will be others in action against superpowers. Heeh heh heh :D My nation is not small, only lazy after being with america so long and leaving political ropes to them in cold war. When we destroy terror and fully grasp it back it would be good to see that they raise their butts like I do and start working on a bigger better civilization instead of taking pride in what we already did :p

Arabians are whiter than Europeans? LMAO. Which arabs? The arabs in real life or the ones in your parrallel universe? Do they also got low levels of birth rate in your parrallel universe instead of breeding like rabbits?
And I see that you are very hypocritical. So it's ok for Ottomans to invade european countries as they please and take the right of them to exist (hence saying whats best for them, as in ottomans should rule them) but it's not ok for European countries to liberate opressed balkan states under Ottoman rule? :rolleyes:
About modern times, if you dont want EU to criticize your human rights records, you shouldnt have applied for membership. Noone wants a non-european nation with 70 million population in EU, especially the one with bad human rights records...

Arabians are whiter than Europeans? LMAO. Which arabs? The arabs in real life or the ones in your parrallel universe? Do they also got low levels of birth rate in your parrallel universe instead of breeding like rabbits?
And I see that you are very hypocritical. So it's ok for Ottomans to invade european countries as they please and take the right of them to exist (hence saying whats best for them, as in ottomans should rule them) but it's not ok for European countries to liberate opressed balkan states under Ottoman rule? :rolleyes:
About modern times, if you dont want EU to criticize your human rights records, you shouldnt have applied for membership. Noone wants a non-european nation with 70 million population in EU, especially the one with bad human rights records...

I don't see why the Ottoman Empire OR Turkey applying to the EU has any relavance to whether China will be the next Superpower. Only saying.

I don't see why the Ottoman Empire OR Turkey applying to the EU has any relavance to whether China will be the next Superpower. Only saying.

China will be a stronger superpower if EU splits or something. And as the EU constitution man said, Turkish membership would be the end of EU.

We watched here in our homes that european police beat the sh.t out of european women, people burning cars in france (the same france thats brags about democracy and human rights) and other events.
There is just a slight difference between a riot in which riot police fight back, and a peaceful women's rights protest that is brutally cracked down upon.

because you are always sublminally saying that we are brown skinned arabic(by the way arabians are whiter in skin than europeans) mindless animals that must be controlled by our european white anglos saxon christian masters :p Im so fed off.
I'm from Hamburg, Germany. I probably know more Turkish people than you do. :p
Fact is that political violence, torture in prisons and Holocaust Denial to not meet EU standards for joining.

You say you know whats best for us just as you did at the end of WW1, dividing ottoman into tiny tiny states formed of religion and race and wanted us to sign treaties accepting slavery. What did we do? Recreated whole armies from ashes and defeated anyone dared to invade us. Losing most of our land but retaining anatolia and giving all the crushed nations of the world hope and will to fight for freedom against any imperalistic war machine that may wish to enslave them.
Yeah right. You know, I'm from Germany. Our imperialism was pro-Turkey.
Surely you remember Gallipoli? The battle that you would have lost without Germans creating a proper army in your country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Liman_von_Sanders

They are parts of highly organised, drug money and international black money fed terrorist organizations. Those organizations have connections to bureaus in england under such names as ''xyz human rights project etc'' and connected to other organisations that train and organise terror in urban areas of country under the cover of humanitarian aid.
Prove it. Prove that these evil women with their "rights" are Islamic Terrorists.

As for Orhan Pamuk he is a puppet, he was created by sell-pen organisations and used as found necessary to further the cause to destabilize turkiye.
He also publicly admitted that Turkey murdered hundreds of thousands of Armenian civilians. Which, I believe, can get you a jail term in Turkey.

There is a german village at the south of country ! but they live like we do and mix with us.
I could say the same thing about the Turks.

There are turkish americans at america, there are those who accept indians as of turkish nomad culture and blood (even if its not)A few months ago I was laughing hard to see a english couple wawing turkish flag on their jetski !
I wonder whether they saw that great Turkish blockbuster movie (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4700154.stm)...

So what the fu...k are europeans talking about racism and oppression against kürts in turkiye???? in 1990 our prime minister was a kürt!
So...is Kurdish no longer illegal in schools then? And are Kurds represented by 20 percent of politicians in parliament?

They destroyed entire villages and killed turkish population to take their place.
Unlike of course the Turkish army, which would never destroy Kurdish villages and displace its inhabitants.

Eu's public is given false images and fed with anti turk, anti- musluman propaganda.
That's utterly ridiculous. The EU demands that the Turkish government behave like civilised people before joining it, and you call that Anti-Muslim? Hell, I thought you said the place was secular?

So either accept this of face humiliation by defeat again.
I've got a better idea. You don't join the EU and remain an unimportant, semi-developed country, but at least you won't have to deal with any of that anti-Turkish propaganda.

believe eventually all human race must become as one and for this we must overcome our differances and ages of dogmas.
Exactly. So you need to give up those laws punishing "anti-Turkish" activities, you must accept the Armenian genocide, and you must make peace with, and grant proper political representation to, the Kurds.
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k2/europe19.html

how long till china become the single superpower. it seems only a matter of time. it seems eventually they will be in the position the u.s. are in in being able to say do what i say or else. hey, maybe the united nations will move to beijing.;)

Well, it will never be a lone superpower with other nations arising. I don't see the US letting China over grow it too easily, with some "alliances" in the Western Pacific arising with the US, against China. (That can be debated.)
If the US were to fall, there are still many other countries who would also hold a large amount of power. (South Korea, India, Japan, EU.)
And China's tight control of their currency can't last much longer with global pressure, which could also slow it's economy.
+ the Communist government can't keep its controls on civil and political freedoms without protesters, and more intl pressure.

Conclusion: Could be a superpower(butnotalone), but it also has problems in it's path, (It = China)

[QUOTE=Neu Leonstein]

'''Yeah right. You know, I'm from Germany. Our imperialism was pro-Turkey.
Surely you remember Gallipoli? The battle that you would have lost without Germans creating a proper army in your country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Liman_von_Sanders '''''
German generals left their armies to die in deserts before young low ranked ottoman officers took them back in command. I have read from rare journals of 1.WW the incapabilities of german commanders in first world war, to them entire armies were cannon fodder and they were like kids playing before table with plastic soldiers. They destroyed our entire armies in such strategicgames and won no victories. I dont blame them, I blame the Ottoman crown for letting them take command of armies in first place. After the war we exiled the sultan, and ended khalifateship. And when Hitler asked and promised us many things in WW2 we remained natural till the end. We had took the bitter taste of figthing with Germans against the rest of the entire world ( if we succeeded in 1.st then ı wouldnt mind)
Those soldiers who won gallipoli won by command of Mustafa Kemal, when they had nothing left at their hands except their rifle knifes, their turkis commander ordered them to march and die and openly said so ''I am ordering you to march and die because in that time our reinforcements will arrive and win the war'' so they marched and died and reinforcements arrived and we won. He was there under the sharapnel fire and standing between blasts as he commanded his soldiers to die, thats why they obeyed him.

'''''Prove it. Prove that these evil women with their "rights" are Islamic Terrorists.''''
Those women are not terrorists, terrorist provekateurs got into the crowd and opened flags shouting racist slogans, started to burn crash and destroy civillian property. So our single minded police was ordered to move and they did move crushing all in their path'!''! Dumb bastards, I dont like or approve them or their actions but I am trying to tell you that this one incident just poured out all EU's fears and prejudices against us. We dont beat women, and I promise we wont beat europeans in any case so dont fear.


''He also publicly admitted that Turkey murdered hundreds of thousands of Armenian civilians. Which, I believe, can get you a jail term in Turkey.''
hahahahahhaH'!H!HH!h! get a jail term aahh ı have tears in my eyes, laughing so hard. Our goverment doesnt even put caught terrorists, murderers, thieves, drug dealers etc to jail!!! In turkiye there was a time where they did put you into jail because of your political choice, that was the cold war time especially 1970's and 80's. By Americas hand and help our politicians of those times put all communists and left activists to jails. Beated them, killed them etc. So the the democracy was setback and there was nothing that anyone could do. Because capitalist wests agents assasinated any who opposed them back in those days to protect 'freedom' in world :p So nice isnt it? From that day to this day there was a very small and ever lessening number of cops continuing the ways of cold war and beating univercity students. Today I doubt you can find one to put into museum.
Armenians living in turkiye deny it and Orhan Pamuk accepts it huh? very good very convincing! You wont get into jail for saynig such things in turkiye but soon in europe saying the opposite will put you in jail. He was pressed charges because he said it with no apperent reason, he didnt get deeper into it explaining why when where and how? Shedding some light into matter, proving things. You cannot just 'say' something and accuse someone then stop talking about it. PEople asked him to tell but he had nothing to say more. He said what he was paid to say and thats all. Today in europe if someone comes up and says '' EU has killed 100 million turks, 20 millon penguins and 3 camels'' will no one ask him questions what the hell is he talking about? And wont people get angry when he denies to talk after picking their curiosity?
Let me tell you something, armenians burned city of Van three times and many other places and killed hundreds of thousands of turks even when Russians they worked for said them to stop! And did they only kill turks? no, they killed other armenians, raped their daughters and sons, stole their treasures because they didnt wanted to betray their empire! There are handful of armenians who fought in our national war and continued to live i turkiye. There are photos, survivors who told what they seen in international courts with witnessess, old documents (genuine documents) etc. did you know when armanians were moved to southern lands there were hospitals, railroads, and etc. were built as mcuh as resources allowed for them along the way and to the locations they were arrive to. I dont believe anyone else in history fighting a world war on all fronts would care to build hospitals for people who raised arms against the empire. But we did because they were our people, citizens and we planned to keep them after we defeated russians.
'''''But no one is interested in historical facts''' because they want to see some cheap blood only. You cannot accept that we are better than you in human values and never did any genocide and you wont accept us unless we have sins to confess.


'''So...is Kurdish no longer illegal in schools then? And are Kurds represented by 20 percent of politicians in parliament?'''

''Unlike of course the Turkish army, which would never destroy Kurdish villages and displace its inhabitants.''

We are not americans in vietnam, those movies have really effected your minds. Our army is made of conscripts from each and every village of country. Numbering a million soldiers which were previously a unmobile infantry force but now agile mechanized force supported by super cobras, elite air force, sturdy and modern tank squadrons. Wherever our army may go there our people go, every village they enter they already have conscripts from. No one burns his own village. Out in the mountains Pkk forced people to move out of their villages and displaced their inhabitants, put a few old guys to surface and tunneled down. Army came, asked for terrorists, then posed as gone away leaving scouts. after they leave they detect terrorists moving out, they radio back, army comes back and destroys the terorist camp. After that of usually after the massacre by terorists to a village foreign agents come, take photos and leave in black helicopters. our military intelligance has photos showing american flag on some of those black hawks. But to avert international crisis its not led into public. of course most conscripts are not that able to shut up about seeing european arms dealers in the region and being ordered to march away wwith big orders coming from capital city or to not shoot Usa agents in the area and leave alone training camps. These things go public over time. Generals that hit organisations big time money ways are held from progresssing forward in their careers by politicians. Kürts are replacing population in the area with massacres to take over petrol reserves. Asking for rights is just a cover story, their bosses are getting rich from drug trade. They are forcing persian tribes like Zaza or Kirmanç to accept being kurdish to show bigger numbers. And accepting their languages as different kurdish accents (which are entirely different) and kill any kürd,zaza, kirmanç, persian, arabian or any immigrant that opposes them. Those who do this are no more then 5 percent of kürdish population who took outside training, funds and help. I want to add that when they took political power by americas help in Irak their first job was a genocide against turks as much as they could manage it which is chosen to be not seen by world media. those kinds of terorists will get only bullets as their right, because thats what they give to others. Those who live by the sword die by the sword.
******We had more than 20 percent kürds in parlement many times but I dont think we ever thought of seperating people with their race huh? Thank you o kind democratic european brother so that from now on I will treat kürts as kürts and türks as türks.And everyday I will remind everyone I see of their race as a first job and congratulate myself for being such a democrat to respect them****** what I mean if you still dont get it we dont treat people different so we dont realize the need to acknowlegde any other race or culture in the country in a seperate way. All those who live in turkiye contributes to common culture and lives it. If we divide it we become racist and poor in culture. And you are insisting that we divide our country into races and cultures, Im sorry but we are having a hard time deciding which of our customs belong to who? Like a divorcing couple, fighting over who will get the pet.


'''That's utterly ridiculous. The EU demands that the Turkish government behave like civilised people before joining it, and you call that Anti-Muslim? Hell, I thought you said the place was secular?'''
I understand that we truly have friends and neutral people over europe that only asks turkiye to become a better place. You are right in this but you are trying to dictate us the details and things about inner workings which you have no idea about. That leads to disaster, just be there for us come here once in a while an be with us and in time we ourselves will pick things up. Thats the democratic way. I dont want to think that there are europeans who wont like a strong and more democratic turkiye as their neighbour but I cannot stop suspecting that some of you want us to be enemies forever! Like americans wanting russians to be their communist dog enemies forever. Get over it!


''''I've got a better idea. You don't join the EU and remain an unimportant, semi-developed country, but at least you won't have to deal with any of that anti-Turkish propaganda.''''
getting angry at each other is easy, but not profitable. Especially for turkiye, but europe must understand that they are not dictaors of turkiye and cant just point and click and make everything right. You are not doing us good because of your soft good heart, we are business partners in this and have to be respectful to both sides. Your attitude is what cost you all of your colonies. We are not a colony, we are a 'possible' ally, a force that you will want to have on your side if you help it first today. 70 million people may be scary but as much as scary its still a power added to body of Eu will turn it into a monstrosity, stop being a wimp over aesthetics. Strenght is good :cool: and we are not alone or unimportant, we already have south korea as a partner and ally, we are not fully parted with america too if they find some sense turkish people will calm down and know whats adventegous for them. Look how miserably they failed over Irak, if they did not chose to feed some kürt terorists with irsaels orders then turks could have easily stopped 'any'bloodshed over Irak, secure the whole area and create the perfect oppurtunity to reshape Irak. Why? because turkish soldier is not like american soldier, wherever it gose it gains the sympathy of locals and mantains order. over afghanistan afghan people love turkish soldiers whereas they hate dumb american soldiers. Why? because americans look down on them, despise them and see their job as a chore, hate it. But our army is made from our people and they look at every human as their equals. Thats humanity, thats what lets you keep your land after the fight.
If Usa doesnt start to act like an ally instead of boss against turkiye then tr becomes allies with russia. I dont thin Eu would like to be surrounded by an russian turkish pact, controlling most of acces to both asia and middle east. Putin came over turkiye and won peoples hearts by kind words, subtlely made promises and created more connections. If he wins turkiye then he has a good chance to use turkiye to negotiate with chechenya etc turkish rebels and save face giving them some rights and making a good deal stabilizing area. And not only that most of ex USSR countries see turkiye as a potential hope to rise to power. and havin tr as ally means having not only those ex USSR countries as allies in time with some work but possible ways to control uygurs(uighurs) over china to their means.

For those dont give a damn about turkiye or turks and wish to just discuss widely known things in world media, Im sorry. But these things ım telling are not just about my country but about middle east and asia too. And I get excited over the possibilites I see my country in the events to come so speak a lot :) . I hope it ,our role in next wave of superpowers will be better that stocking up nukes for america against USSR.

German generals left their armies to die in deserts before young low ranked ottoman officers took them back in command.
The only useful thing Turkey did in WWI was defending themselves against the Allies in Gallipoli. And as I posted in the link, Liman von Sanders was the one who taught Atatürk how to run an army properly.

And when Hitler asked and promised us many things in WW2 we remained natural till the end. We had took the bitter taste of figthing with Germans against the rest of the entire world
Yeah, I think Germany made a mistake allying itself with the wrong nations in the past. In WWI it was Austria and Turkey, in WWII it was Italy.

Those women are not terrorists, terrorist provekateurs got into the crowd and opened flags shouting racist slogans, started to burn crash and destroy civillian property.
Dude, I've seen the footage. They were beating everything in range.
Quite apart from that being the same excuse used by regimes throughout the centuries. I believe in Uzbekistan it was also "Islamist Terrorists" which made the army shoot into the crowds demonstrating against the government...

hahahahahhaH'!H!HH!h! get a jail term aahh ı have tears in my eyes, laughing so hard.
Well, why is Orham Pamuk in jail then? And what does Article 301 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301) say?

He was pressed charges because he said it with no apperent reason, he didnt get deeper into it explaining why when where and how? Shedding some light into matter, proving things. You cannot just 'say' something and accuse someone then stop talking about it.
Oh, and that gets you a three-year jail term, does it?

As for proof...you're aware that you just have to visit any given history museum, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Does the Turkish Government admit anything? No. Instead they have propaganda at school, outlaw Kurdish language and culture, even celebrating Kurdish holidays.

Today in europe if someone comes up and says '' EU has killed 100 million turks, 20 millon penguins and 3 camels'' will no one ask him questions what the hell is he talking about? And wont people get angry when he denies to talk after picking their curiosity?
He won't go to jail, so much is certain.

I dont believe anyone else in history fighting a world war on all fronts would care to build hospitals for people who raised arms against the empire. But we did because they were our people, citizens and we planned to keep them after we defeated russians.
Damn ungrateful Armenians, hey?

Our army is made of conscripts from each and every village of country. Numbering a million soldiers which were previously a unmobile infantry force but now agile mechanized force supported by super cobras, elite air force, sturdy and modern tank squadrons. Wherever our army may go there our people go, every village they enter they already have conscripts from. No one burns his own village.
Ridiculous. How many Kurds serve in the Turkish Army?
http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=ma99mckiernan

Out in the mountains...
Sounds like a conspiracy theory. Care to prove anything?

We had more than 20 percent kürds in parlement many times but I dont think we ever thought of seperating people with their race huh?
So, tell me - is Kurdish allowed to be taught in Turkish schools?

It is not. 20% of Turkey's population is Kurdish, yet their language and culture is effectively outlawed. And you're telling me there is no problem?

All those who live in turkiye contributes to common culture and lives it. If we divide it we become racist and poor in culture. And you are insisting that we divide our country into races and cultures, Im sorry but we are having a hard time deciding which of our customs belong to who? Like a divorcing couple, fighting over who will get the pet.
You know what that sounds like? Fascism, that's what.

A country is not an organism. It's just a collection of individuals, who need to be allowed to speak their language and celebrate their holidays if they want to.

You are right in this but you are trying to dictate us the details and things about inner workings which you have no idea about.
No, the EU has admission criteria. States must be free and democratic, and they must respect human rights if they are to enter. If Turkey doesn't manage that, they're not getting in. No dictating.

And by the way....what about Cyprus?

The only useful thing Turkey did in WWI was defending themselves against the Allies in Gallipoli. And as I posted in the link, Liman von Sanders was the one who taught Atatürk how to run an army properly.
Yeah, I think Germany made a mistake allying itself with the wrong nations in the past. In WWI it was Austria and Turkey, in WWII it was Italy.
Like we didn't fought England in the Canal War and WHOLE Damn Russia at our eastern front at the same time we fought at Trablusgarp against Italy etc. We practically fought over hundreds and hundreds of kilometers lines with most of it on cold ice deserts, hot sand deserts and other enviromental harships. We lost a great part of our population in that war.
And yet holded our lines till Russia dropped out of war, defeated English navy on bosphorus then stopped their invasion force on land on gallipoli. With new turkish strategy changing the face of warfare. M. Kemal stopped standart line war where soldiers held the line and fell back when line was penetrated. But instead they stood their ground with fresh forces coming from behind and stoping attackers from easily moving. Using fire control tactics he achieved machine gun effect out of simple one shot rifles and won gallipoli.
We even won partial victory over canal war but down in Arabic lands it had kinda turned into a bribe war to buy arabic cheiftains and Ottoman ran out of gold before english did :p What is not nice that arabians knifed our wounded soldiers lying in hospitals (so today someone talks about them as our religion brothers I laugh)
Whatever, WW1 was painful for all world I believe. Not even victors found it pleasing because it didnt go as they dreamed of it. Its just not that easy to overrun two empires even with one being sick. It was not those old glorious days you won victory over the field and took an entire country.
Short of it: germans had spent time and resources in ottoman armys modernisation yes, but history show that their in use old tactics didnt them any good than it did to us and we saved our butts with new tactics. And after the WW1 all armies of Ottoman were disbanded, in our fight for freedom whole new armies out of a war tired population was created and used with extraordinary effectiveness.

Europeans always play to wrong horse, Balkan nations, Greeks, armenians etc and now kürds. Thousand years before we stoped balkaniaans crusades, then defeated them on field. We then ruled them as people, not as slaves, they tradedes and talked and prayed freely. But when empires power diminished because of bad management they become unhappy like the rest. They shed civliian blood needlessly as ordered them by their church (and their church was controlled by russia, they were orthodoxs with panslavism politica) to change demographic appearance of land for bigger lands.
Then they won their own countries but to what end? they are incredibly small and ineffective countries which today continues ottoman culture! Look at Greeks, visit Athens and then Istanbul you will find the culture and people same! In those days you were saying the exact same things you said today about kürds. It caused them to burn our cities kill our people instead of living in peace in the greatest empire of world. By that day too high up goverment officals had armenians and rums among them. Not a little bit percent too most of them were raised in goverment schools fot their jobs and of minority origin.


Now as for kürds, after you use them to further harm us you will have to find a outside land for them and pay them with your tax money to keep them alive, in order to use them again. Ups pardon, USa already did that in Irak'! BEcause they failed to get our land from us in armed conflict. Its just an international chess and kürds are a peon to force us open our defence. No one cares about their culture including them but they are proving useful for our enemies. I have a few kurdish relatives added to family by marriage and they are no different than next man in dining, wining, talking etc. There is no culture that ist already part of turkish lifesytle that kürds have. As for language I already explained they are oppressing two other persian(persian arabian) tribes into accepting that they are kürd. While they themselves are opprressing others in order to become a country of their own why should we let them flourish in doing so? And I want to add that if there are 20 percent kürds as stated most of them dont care.Because terrorists are marksist lenininst in origin but rely on racial supremacy theories. Each year many kürds forcefully taken into arms in teror organisations escape and apply for rehabilitation. We are granting them that. And only 5 percent of entire population which consists of Irak immigrants have any kind of connection with terror and wish to be treated seperately, find their own counry etc. ***Most minorities in turkiye are not comfortable with being reminded that they are minorities***


They are practically always showing us like the bad guys to world with your medias help but actually they are national socialist and made huge massacres to us. Not us to them. We were imperialistic but a pro endustrial revolution imperialistic. People were our resource too, we didnt get the resources and shot the people lived there like you did.Our old economy was based on 'tax' income, and keeping everyone alive was well to our benefit.


Orhan Pamuk is not in jail, never been. people in turkiye just ignore him now and with the selling of his books dropped and when he didnt get all the awards in europe he hoped for. HE crawled back and started telling he was misunderstood sorry etc. Bah! spineless coward and sell-pen.


You know what that sounds like? Fascism, that's what.

A country is not an organism. It's just a collection of individuals, who need to be allowed to speak their language and celebrate their holidays if they want to.
Every goverment is in different degrees of fascism. **Because no fascism equals anarchism**. While being like Stalin and hitler or mussolini wont do country good, at least defending your borders, punishing criminals is what is accepted to be a countries right (and only way to survive). Thats democracy that gives me right to choose how much power I want to invest in the goverment. If I give too much and goverment abuses it its my problem, you can not dictate me to be liberal. That makes you fascist.because you are telling me whats good for me because it was good for you. It gives me right to do the same, which I dont care or want.
**
They have one holiday they see as national and ''we'' have been already celebrationg it for 10k years now O_o'! Its spring entrance, we celebrate it since shaman days, people kinda like it going out into nature and having picnic, having some fun. Normal turks and kurds celebrate it that way but terorist make is a showoff by opening fire in random and burning half a city each time they are able to :p As I said I have kurdish friends, had business partners etc. And what they want is what I want, lower taxes, less corruption in goverment, cheaper electricty to strenghten our industry. More bank credits etc. You would be surprised to see how fake and poorly built at last moment kurdish culture is. It is engineered and a fake made by borrowing from persian language. Because kurds doesnt have anything to seperate them from other turkish locals. ANd fascist puppetmasters found this no good and for the last 40 years in the mountains starting with russians kurds are taken into camps and taught and brainwshed. Syria and Irak let them build camps on their side but when it got out of control in ırak and Saddam use poison gas to make them obey again. Later Usa took their control with israel and england helping them after russians left kurdish project. because Russians had to deal with afghanistan, which they later lost. Nowadays kurds are starting to claim that they are jewish in religion ( at least some of them) and a lost tribe of jews O_o!''!, some of them claim they are older civilization than turks( and they have bigger penises), writing books that are mant to humiliate turkish history and nearly putting turks in being guilt of genociding Jews over europe with nazis too!!! ***They are getting a wee little bit crazy nowadays and let me remind you Abdullah Öcalan was declaring himself a Greek*** I swear this is true and Im sure that Eu press never told ya this :p This even takes place in kurdish books and Pkk propaganda papers LOL.

We have economic problems here, our education system sucks and nearly all goverment instutions needs reform. Yes we need reforms, Eu is right in most of its admission criterias but you are not asking us to do it. You are asking us to forget to govern the population as one and start kinda two goverments and spend money and time which we dont have over to specifically kurds!' You want us to choose one of our children above other while their problems are the same! This makes other child jealous because other one is treated better. As far as I have discovered EU is spending enormous amounts to kurds in different named funds. You are raising kurd poors over turk poors wheras they were before equal in their suffering. Now your racist approach will cause poor turks to stand and shout to hell with kurds we want same rights i
s it our fault to become turk and not kurd we dont recieve help and attention!
You are causing hate, before Eu poked its nose most people in turkiye said that '' Its the dumb politicians fault that not all places in country gets equal attention and we must right it'' and now they see it as an outside inside combo attack against them threathening to divide country. Because each terrorist act raises fear and hate. TERROR HAS ONE GOAL, MAKING PEOPLE FEAR AND HATE. The goal is to poke turks until they decide to kill all kurds. Tehn perhaps EU will be happy, we make a genocide and confess saying that we are sorry, putting a few statues :p


And by the way....what about Cyprus?

BAck in the day racist fascist Rums( what you call greek now) decided to destroy the goverment of Cyorus and start methodical genocide of turks. We interfered and pushed them back protecting our people. What would you do if your neighbors next door decided in their racial background and decided that you and your kind dont fit in, in your country formed mobs and started to cut you down?Show up with guns at you house. Wouldnt you call in the army to protect your ass? For interfering with their plans our 'allies' put us an embargo back in those days which caused death of many turks and your beloved pet kurds with lack of many medicines we didnt produce and bought from outside. ***I dont get it, when hitler does it to jews world cries over it and rums, armenians, kurds do it to turks no fu.king one believes it! F..kincredible!' Give us a break before we start seeking racial purity of sh.t like that, we wont be european that way. Let me reming you another genocide that happened close by, Serbians massacred bosnians and no one did anything in the Europe, they were practically your next door and they were 'in' europe! Rich people paid a few hundred dollars and got to the top of buildings in bosnia and hunted down small children with a sniper gun as serbians waited and guarded them. Human hunting was a sport performed there! God damn us United nations didnt let us interfere, I wish we took the risk of new embargos like in Cyprus and saved those innocent souls :(

Look, I am not explaining those things to win a debate over you or something. Even if your ideas about Turkiye doesnt change a bit please understand that there is too much going on you dont know or care about but effecting the future of entire middle east, europe and russia. And even america because they chose kurds over turks in Irak and now understanding that If they invade Iran it will be of no help to them. Iran is no Irak and they failed to hold the land in even Irak so they have no chance of controlling area without turkiye. But If they mean to nuke entire area thats another story folks :D Whatever they do when they act it will provoke russia and we might be on their side when it happens. If things about kurds go on too long Usa will lose its bases in Turkiye too. They have good bases to further south yes and english are well founded at there but still they are fighting a war too far away. Israel has huge tank armies which can defeat Iran, but not the population to hold over land, so I fear they will make great massacres over there because they cannot hold them. We will see much bloodshed.

*** Let me remind everyone one thing, wars are not cheap. Meanwhile Usa fights it gets poorer. China stays its hand from far wars, Russia may or may not stay its hand from middle east war. Whatever happens those who doesnt get involve directly in war will be in gain because they dont spend their resources on war and continue to grow up in economic strenght. *** unlike popular belief throwing nukes doesnt make one rich, investing in economy does.

The US is in decline now, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing when you consider the alternatives.

It's a slow decline, but inevitable.

thats right. The US will be out of oil soon, and I expect they will do something similar to Japan in the 1930's. Seizing recources probably in Latin America or the Middle East

I don't think that China will take away the seat of global hegemony from America and replace it. Why? Given the fact that there are several other powers rising, I don't think that America has been losing power. It still is strong as ever despite negative international opinion - it's just that there are more powerful nations appearing on the scene. America will probably hold onto it's influence for quite a while, but it will be challenged by the lesser international titans so that it cannot always have it's way.
I thought China owned America? as they hold over 50% of American debt?

I thought China owned America? as they hold over 50% of American debt?

China doesn't exactly own America. Owe the bank a million dollars and you got a problem. Owe the bank a trillion dollars and the bank's got a problem.

Of course the U.S. is foolish to run up so much debt.

To Todays Lucky Number

Are you dilusional??? or have you had the Turkish states take on history shoved so far up your backside that you no longer know whats real!! i would be eager for you to provide links in regards to evidence that Armenians slaughtered turks during the genocide. While its true that the Dashnak (armenian nationalists) were trying to organize resistance they were poorly armed and the general sithuation was of chaos in that part of Anatolia with Turkish troops backed by Kurdish irregulars striking not only the Armenians, but the Pontic Greeks and the Syrian christians (suriani), surely they cannot have all been killing turks. And i am very amused by your statement about Armenians who fought for the Turks, no doubt these people were Hemsimli (islamic armenians) rather than christians - if i am wrong on this please provide evidence.

In regard to the Kurds our quote about 'no one cares about there culture even them' is simply preposterous, the Kurds are among the most ancient of races in the middle east, they were even mentioned by Xenophon (a long long time ago), there culture is vibrant and DISTINCT! or am i wrong are they simply 'mtn turks'.
I suppose your turko centric view will no doubt be telling us that Homer was a turk! and that his real name was Omer!

As regards the first world war no one can doubt the Turkish Armies bravery, a trait they showed over many wars but lets not delude ourselves, without Prussian training and German arms the Ottoman army would have remained in the doldrums of the mid 1800's, as for tactics i think you will find that Ataturk utilized mass infantry and heavy artillery support, hardly sophistacated and in keeping with what the europeans were doing anyhow (ala Marne, Verdun, etc)

And your qoute on the continuation of Ottoman culture in the balkans, sure buddy, if drinking Black coffee and eating Kofte's constitutes culture then fine but lets not forget the culture the ottomans themselves absorbed into turkish culture such as medieval greek (byzantine), Anatolians (galatians, etc) and caucasian (Circassians, Ajarians, etc) not to mention Persian culture which had a masive effect on the turks as they pushed into anatolia under the Seljuk shepard kings.

A word of advice, try to seek other sources of history to look up not just turko centric ones.

I find to many Turks espousing views like yours highly annoying and most of them tend to be politicians (the most annoying is the turkish ambassador in london, what a cock) and because of that i will never be happy with a turkey within the EU.

China will certainly be a major power and possibly a super-power. As will India. I can't see India getting to "super-power" status before China. India has just as many, if not more problems then China has at the moment. Fortunatly they can both be solved in both countries.

The U.S.A. will likely remain a super-power for the forseable future.

China will certainly be a major power and possibly a super-power. As will India. I can't see India getting to "super-power" status before China. India has just as many, if not more problems then China has at the moment. Fortunatly they can both be solved in both countries.

The U.S.A. will likely remain a super-power for the forseable future.

DO you not think that the internal divisions in India will prevent them? what about the possibility of the Jihad reaching India and causing the simmering Hindu-Muslim divide to finally boil over? I can see India facing big challenges ahead. India just does not seem as united in the way China does.

India just does not seem as united in the way China does.

On the contrary, India is too diverse to divide.

If you can understand that, you can understand India.

Btw, "One China" is BS. There are ethnic tensions inside China too. Significant Tibetans and Uighurs want out and censorship of the CPC makes it look all goody-goody. When political freedom reaches all Chinese, we will know how united China is.

On the contrary, India is too diverse to divide.

If you can understand that, you can understand India.

Btw, "One China" is BS. There are ethnic tensions inside China too. Significant Tibetans and Uighurs want out and censorship of the CPC makes it look all goody-goody. When political freedom reaches all Chinese, we will know how united China is.


ok point taken however i cannot see the Uighurs and tibetans taking on China in the same way the Naga have taken on india, can you?

The form of government that India has does not matter. India's government cannot provide the infrastructure for having India ever come above where it's at. Its people are poor and are staying that way because the government keeps them stupid. All of the wealth is kept in key families. That's not a superpower. India is a modern feudal society. Yes, they have made a lot of advancements, but the country as a whole is crippled by the disadvantages the government has let take hold. It's America, but thousands of times worse.

China has much worse income inequality than India, and lacks the freedoms and protections necessary to maintain sustainable growth. India is making massive investments in high tech and education, and is attracting foreign investment in its infrastructure to modernize it.

Already, India has a GDP equal to 42% that of China, and has much more sustainable growth with greater emphasis on efficiency and less energy intensity than China; it also possesses much healthier demographics and an economy still far from transitioned to China's level. China's short term growth is going to be stronger but India has the long term upper hand.

Also, the government means more than anything; without a solid, free government backed by the people all of the infrastructure in the world will not matter. China already has massive problems with civil unrest, and that is worsening more and more as the government ignores the will of the people. Unless China opens up, it will not be able to keep itself stable enough to keep growth high and beneficial to all. Nothing scares investment away more than instability. Their repressive regime is ruining the environment and displacing millions, and that will have serious implications in the future.

India's growing at 8% per year, lifting millions in to the middle class, and building an economy focused on education, technology, and advanced manufacturing for the domestic as well as the international economy. China is heavily leveraged towards exports, and that can collapse easily because there is massive overcapacity in many sectors and the labor force is shrinking.

The Chinese need to give up territory and stay communist but work on the proper division of wealth and labour. They can survive as a communist country, but they need to let go of their imperialist tendancies - it works for the States cause their territories don't mind being American. It doesn't work so well when they rebel. Then they need to practice diplomacy and basically dominate the Eastern hemisphere as a friendly giant.[/QUOTE]

ok point taken however i cannot see the Uighurs and tibetans taking on China in the same way the Naga have taken on india, can you?

Do you even know what the Naga rebels are fighting for?

The Naga rebels (a minority amongst the Nagas, btw) seek to establish a greater Naga state over neighboring states due to what they see as historical legacy of some Naga kingdom in the past.

The seperatists of some strength are the ULFA (Assam). Even they are a spent force. The Khalistani seperatists are gone. Even Kashmir is over its worst phase.

The democratic system allows for venting of grievances which do not build up and threaten to blow up in an bigger way.

China's short term growth is going to be stronger but India has the long term upper hand.

As I like to say, the Chinese may have won the sprint, but the marathon is still on.;)


http://online.wsj.com/google_login.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB114703871143746089.html%3Fmod%3Dgoog lenews_wsj
India is rapidly evolving into Asia's innovation center, leaving China in the dust. Its secret weapon? Intellectual property-rights protection. In recent years, New Delhi has taken big steps to protect these rights, and the results have been dramatic. It may appear as if India's recent economic rise is solely due to its low-cost outsourcing opportunities for foreign businesses. But this is only part of the story.

Thanks to international treaties such as the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property (TRIPS) of the World Trade Organization, Indian IP laws were significantly revamped starting in the mid-1990s. In 1994, the Indian Copyright Act was amended to clearly explain the rights of a copyright holder and the penalties for infringement of copyrighted software. The law has been called one of the "toughest in the world."

These changes, which significantly ramped up enforcement provisions, will undoubtedly prove the most important for copyright protection on the subcontinent -- far ahead of other countries in Asia. The Indian courts have risen to the challenge. They have taken a broad approach to the applying new laws -- especially to protect intellectual property in emerging fields such as information technology.

This trend continued last year when India put in place a new patent law that brought it further into line with international norms. For example, this law included new provisions that extended patent protection to computer software and pharmaceutical products. The changes provided new and powerful incentives for investment, both foreign and domestic, in the creation of new products in those fields. New Delhi has also improved the operation of its Patent Office, which handles patent applications. Today, a patent can be granted in less than three years, as opposed to only a few years ago, where it took up to an average of five to seven years.

As a result, copyright-based industries such as the Indian IT sector have enjoyed rapid growth. The annual average rate of growth of Indian software exports from 1994 to 2002 was 48%, marking a drastic surge from the preceding five years, when the average annual growth was about 35%. If New Delhi keeps up its commitment to rights protection, the numbers will continue to grow. Within the next few years, annual revenues from Indian software exports are expected to reach $50 billion.

Furthermore, Indian entrepreneurs, business and government labs are filing for patents at rapidly increasing rates. The number of Indian patent applications filed has increased 400% over the past 15 years. Nearly 800 Indian companies submitted international patent applications to the World Intellectual Property Organization in 2004. This number may be fairly small by international standards, but is still more than double the number of Indian patents applied for in 2000. Now, even the local pharmaceutical companies, traditionally manufacturers of generic versions of brand-name drugs, are embracing innovation-based business models and seeking patent protection for their inventions.

New Delhi's actions are a stark contrast to those of others nations like China and Brazil. When it comes to reigning in the rampant piracy of music, movies and software, these governments are lagging behind India. But to truly reach their potential for creativity and innovation, other emerging economic powers could take a few pointers from New Delhi. As recent history has shown, IPR protection is the secret to success.

Cataduanes ask yourself how much do you know about armenian genocide? What are the details and what really happened? Most of things you think you know are just what you mind fills in with imagination about barbaric turks mass killing christians.
Armenians will and can only tell you that there was a genoclde, shouting and oppressing any other view and research. Did you know how many times theydenied to show up with their legitimate evidance on an international court? Their offical thesis is found on a book written by a character named Aram Andoyan. When we ask them to show us original pictures and writings that they claim are the orders for mass killing they dont because if they do their validity can be tested. They are only raising a fuss, getting extra rights and funds from you and thats all they care about. And high ups in your goverments know this but why let a weapon against turkiye they should just let go? Politics is about deals and its a ice thing to add to the table when you are making deals.
A few evidances are official letters sent to ottoman officers, orders given in war are recorded and whats written in them states that armenians are taken out of hot combat zone to south provinces and officers are charged with their well being.
There were a good number of armenians in ottoman goverment, and after the war all courts held on ottoman, and by english on malta(all with armenians) found that there is no evidance of any genocide.

I know a good deal of armenian jewelers in Istanbul and talk with them, they are christian and they know no genocide and are angry to other armenians.
These are pictures of turks killed by armenians, only a part of it. We have originals in goverment archives and called any armenian to come and have a look and work on them. No one was interested, and why they should be? They are christians after all and they dont need any 'real evidance'.
http://www.pehlivan1.blogspot.com/ and those are told on this blog are excrepts from real survivors, telling horrific events that took place.
And take a look at Englısh goverments archives too No.05043 E 1714 ministry of foreign affairs archive. Russians have lots of archives too showing hundreds of thousand of dead turkish women and children, defenceless because their man are at war and cut down by armenians.
These are some of survivors :Muhammed Reşit Güleşer
Şeyh Cemal Talay -Salih Taşçı-Bekir Yörük-İbrahim Sargın-Ayşe Sevimli-Hacı Zekeriya KOÇ-Hikmet Saylık-Mehmet Şaar-Kadriye Duran-Abdülbari Barlas-
Sait Kaya-Yamin Tosun
some pictures that are in our archives and internationally approved real.
http://www.kultur.gov.tr/TR/BelgeGoster.aspx?F6E10F8892433CFFAAF6AA849816B2EF8C0C1EF3BB3C9381
those weapons in first page are weapons armenians got from russians. They were superriorly armed.
Those old man and women are survivors, those bones are turkish bones.
There are some paintigns about skull mountains which armenians claim as evidance =P and they were painted far before 1. WW lol some pictures are of women killed by armanians by crushing their heads with stones, others are of women their genitals cut off, pregnant women that their stomachs cut open and their babies taken out. Prisoners of war shot, but armenians mostly like cutting people rather than shooting. And when they are tired they use grenades in a wagon full of women.
Good job on helping armenians, next time I will personally bind my peoples hands and feet so their jobs will be easier...
bah, Im tired of you. next time I will speak about armenian genocide to a european I hope I wont be have to add kurdish massacres over turks too. But by the way things are going its the future.


About culture, I take as much pleasure as making research over ancient greeks, china, india, reading arabian and persian poems and thinking over zen buddhism or spending some with listening Russian choirs. But those things are already widely known by any a little bit intellectual so its important to talk about unknown things, uncovering truth. Of course I am going to be turkocentric, we were the superpower for 600 years before now and defined the worlds rotation until industrial revolution turned europe into a giant and we spent all our money on trinkets :p

Europeans are continously cocky and annoying about being european, so why not we turks should not be if we wish to enter EU :p
I understand its annoying to find a turk, firm about his history, knowing truth instead of believing in widespread propaganda,standing tall instead of groveling at your feet. I dont like weakness, even my enemies must be strong so that I may be stronger is our ancient motto. Lets not interfere under this thread shall we? As for those who may skip reading lots of stuff and wonder what is this doing under this thread... one thing followed other and here we are.

I may be a bit turkocentric again, but since most turks are living in asia and there is a great number of them in CHina, any alliance with turkiye would affect their loyalties. And If china turns into a more democratic place they can have a big effect too. Even the little numbers of turks in europe, england and america are having effects on elections.

I don't believe China will ever be the lone superpower but the could be equal with America and Nigeria inside the next 7 years.