NationStates Jolt Archive

i think so, therefore he sinned the sin of greed making all the christians wrong and lucifer very hard done by.

Well you might think that, but you'd be wrong :p

Nah, God is just being a hypocrite. He can forgive any human of their sins on Earth. However, when it comes to sin commited by one of his angels in heaven, well that's just too close to home for him and so he changes his tune and kicks some butt. Either that or he was jealous of Lucifer's good looks. I mean he is a jealous god after all.

He could have made another universe for Lucifer to be God of. In fact maybe he did. It would explain a lot if we were living in it.

He could have made another universe for Lucifer to be God of.

It's called Hell :D

It's called Hell

Well, according to Thomas Aquinus God made hell in the eternity that existed before he made the universe. I think it says a lot about God's personality that he spent eternity making hell and only seven days making the universe.

Well, according to Thomas Aquinus God made hell in the eternity that existed before he made the universe. I think it says a lot about God's personality that he spent eternity making hell and only seven days making the universe.
It's scare tactics used to control the populace like any other religious doctrine. Pay it no mind.

Well, according to Thomas Aquinus God made hell in the eternity that existed before he made the universe. I think it says a lot about God's personality that he spent eternity making hell and only seven days making the universe.

Well if we're talking Aquinas... :p

Seriously though, what was he smoking when he said that? Because I'm pretty sure it isn't in the Bible.

Seriously though, what was he smoking when he said that? Because I'm pretty sure it isn't in the Bible.

The story goes that Aquinas was asked, "What was God doing in the time before he made the world?"
And Aquinas answered, "Making hell for sinners like you!"

I have to ask, has anyone ever heard of a time when Lucifer sought forgiveness? God can forgive, but the sinner has to accept that forgiveness before the the relationship can be repaired. My thought is, no, God is not being greedy. Afterall, it was God that made the universe and it is God who holds the absolute power. He also gave Lucifer a lot of power before Lucifer rebelled.

Nah, God is just being a hypocrite. He can forgive any human of their sins on Earth. However, when it comes to sin commited by one of his angels in heaven, well that's just too close to home for him and so he changes his tune and kicks some butt. Either that or he was jealous of Lucifer's good looks. I mean he is a jealous god after all.

There is forgiveness and there is justice. God is all loving and all just. Would it have been just of him to say "Oh its ok, I dont mind you attempting to start a rebelion in heaven, I'm just going to ignore it". That isnt justice. Also, like Squirl Brothers said, you have to ask for forgiveness to be forgiven (IE say sorry). There's nothing to suggest Lucifer did that.

i think so, therefore he sinned the sin of greed making all the christians wrong and lucifer very hard done by.
What about the Jews?
Wait... they don't believe in Hell...

Anyways you suck!

There is forgiveness and there is justice. God is all loving and all just. Would it have been just of him to say "Oh its ok, I dont mind you attempting to start a rebelion in heaven, I'm just going to ignore it". That isnt justice. Also, like Squirl Brothers said, you have to ask for forgiveness to be forgiven (IE say sorry). There's nothing to suggest Lucifer did that.

Heh. I just realised Warhammer 40K and the Horus Heresy is based upon that. I wonder how much else is based on Christian themes?

Short answer : prideful, wrathful, and greedy.

The thing is this, when God created the angels, he gave them free will, they could do what they wanted. However, Lucifer went and turned against God, leading 1/3 of the angels in a rebellion. Lucifer, or Satan as he originally was called, was essentially God's left hand man, second only to the Messiah. However, Satan felt that he should be more important than 1/3 of God, and led a Rebellion. This forced St. Michael into the position of the leader of the Angels, and he was the one who forced Satan into Hell, which, according to every Demon and Devil that Fr. Amorth, the Chief Exorcist of Rome, has questioned, was created by Satan the moment he rebelled. Just like with Hitler, there are somethings that while God could forgive you for, he won't.

And as for Jews and Hell, my Orthodox and Reform friends both believe in an Afterlife and that there is a hell, I can't remember what they call it. But, it is based on the phariseeic interpretations of the Torah.

Satan and Christ are two sides of the same coin and both are God.

was god greedy because he wouldnt let lucifer be god as well?

Are you greedy not to let your 3 year-old drive your car?

He could have made another universe for Lucifer to be God of. In fact maybe he did. It would explain a lot if we were living in it.
But what if he did and we don't know... :eek:

i think so, therefore he sinned the sin of greed making all the christians wrong and lucifer very hard done by.
This is the funniest thing I have read all day.

Nah, God is just being a hypocrite. He can forgive any human of their sins on Earth. However, when it comes to sin commited by one of his angels in heaven, well that's just too close to home for him and so he changes his tune and kicks some butt. Either that or he was jealous of Lucifer's good looks. I mean he is a jealous god after all.
He's vain as well. We're talking about a guy who wants everyone to worship him after all.

He's vain as well. We're talking about a guy who wants everyone to worship him after all.

He has low self-esteem.

He has low self-esteem.

Clearly. Throughout creation he has to keep re-assuring himself that he's doing good.

sure, why not.

Clearly. Throughout creation he has to keep re-assuring himself that he's doing good.
Even when his most devout followers beg him to actually be just. Even in the bible.

i think so, therefore he sinned the sin of greed making all the christians wrong and lucifer very hard done by.


lol this is insane what your saying!

This can relate..."A owner hires a few workers for a job, then one of the workers BEING greedy wants the boss' job (or to be both bosses), so then a few other workers fight with the GREEDY worker and kick him out."

Now seriously put yourself in God's shoes, You make a bunch of Angles, and one of them being greedy wants your job, what would you do?

He's vain as well. We're talking about a guy who wants everyone to worship him after all.
Only in the ever-just-so manner, of course.

lol this is insane what your saying!

This can relate..."A owner hires a few workers for a job, then one of the workers BEING greedy wants the boss' job (or to be both bosses), so then a few other workers fight with the GREEDY worker and kick him out."

Now seriously put yourself in God's shoes, You make a bunch of Angles, and one of them being greedy wants your job, what would you do?

Why do anything? It's not as though he could actually take your job.

Now seriously put yourself in God's shoes, You make a bunch of Angles, and one of them being greedy wants your job, what would you do?
Barring a certain passage about not understanding the way of god, you're basically saying that he's compensating for being incompetent as a creator and manufacturer.

i think so, therefore he sinned the sin of greed making all the christians wrong and lucifer very hard done by.


You are crazier than my mom, which means you can suck in your stomach for real. Literally.

Short answer : prideful, wrathful, and greedy.

Which one?

Satan and Christ are two sides of the same coin and both are God.
Which is what makes it so funny when you meet up with practising Satanists - trying to keep a straight face while they pontificate on being non-Christian.

To me, greed and jealousy are negative emotions and I can't believe that God would feel anything negative. He is incapable of negativity. :)

To me, greed and jealousy are negative emotions and I can't believe that God would feel anything negative. He is incapable of negativity. :)

How about sorrow?

I find it interesting that Lucifer and a bunch of other angels who knew God personally and had divine intelligence, grace and intutition decided to rebel against God yet we mortals who are stuck in an imperfect world with lame arse miracles like Mary appearing in a burito are supposed to worship God without question. I mean even the Isrealites, God's chosen people, threw over God for a gold cow the first chance they got. It seems that the better you know God, the more likely you are to want to get rid of him. That is not a good character reference.

has anyone ever read the book "I, Lucifer"? It basically tells the story of the fall and the temptation of Christ through the Devil's perspective. Some of it is brilliantly written.

To paraphrase, since I don't think I can quote exactly from memory:

"A lot of people think I was responsible for the crusifixion, but they don't really think things through too much. Think of it this way, Christ being crusified means the perfect sacrifice. The perfect sacrifice means salvation in the eyes of God. Salvation in the eyes of God means forgiveness of sin. Forgiveness of sin means NOBODY HAS TO GO TO HELL! Why in the world would I want that? I did everything I could to stop it, but when God has your destiny in mind, nothing in Hell is going to stop that."

:headbang: <What reading this conversation ultimately turns out to be.


You need to all come to an agreement. There are far too many ideas and thoughts floating around for my liking. :mad:

I find it interesting that Lucifer and a bunch of other angels who knew God personally and had divine intelligence, grace and intutition decided to rebel against God yet we mortals who are stuck in an imperfect world with lame arse miracles like Mary appearing in a burito are supposed to worship God without question. I mean even the Isrealites, God's chosen people, threw over God for a gold cow the first chance they got. It seems that the better you know God, the more likely you are to want to get rid of him. That is not a good character reference.

And yet, 2/3 of the angels still serve Him. As for the Israelites, read Exodus closer, they buck God because they think that God had led them into the dessert to die, the Golden Calf was meant to be a sign that they where willing to be alive as sklaves than dead and free.

Which one?
They're all, by extension, a degree of greed (disproportionate sense of self).
And he's all of them.

And yet, 2/3 of the angels still serve Him. As for the Israelites, read Exodus closer, they buck God because they think that God had led them into the dessert to die, the Golden Calf was meant to be a sign that they where willing to be alive as sklaves than dead and free.

So you're saying two out of three ain't bad? Let me put it in human perspective. Do you think Saddam Hussein was good because only one third of his people wanted to rebel? When one out of three divine beings not only think God is lousy but actively try to overthrow him, that is not a good sign. In the light of this it seems we can automatically discount any claims about God being perfect. Now personally, I and many other people think our Prime Minister is rather imperfect, but no one at all seems to want to raise up in open rebellion against him. In fact, that could be a good campaign slogan for him next election - John Howard: Not as bad as God.

How about sorrow?
Good question. It would infer that his judgment is incomplete.
Further ... how about beseeching said "god" for justice by mortal? Especially when same "god" doesn't have omniscience?
So a mortal makes the plea to a trigger-happy misanthrope.

KJ:
18:16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

definatly not! Lucifer challenged Gods authority and God threw him out of Heaven because he was defiant to Gods will.:rolleyes:

If some peasants voice an opinion of opposition against a king, he may let them be. But if the general of the King's military doesn't respect his authority then he will most likely defend his throne.

If some peasants voice an opinion of opposition against a king, he may let them be. But if the general of the King's military doesn't respect his authority then he will most likely defend his throne.
Actually, in mortal terms you are correct, so don't take this the wrong way.
God is the *DECIDER* of mortality. The cost is NOT a military summation. Unless he truly has something to lose.

Which is what makes it so funny when you meet up with practising Satanists - trying to keep a straight face while they pontificate on being non-Christian.

I asked a satanist once, "So do the little old ladies at the Church of Satan have bake sales?" Everyone at the table spit beer out their nose.

I crack myself up. LOL =D

Okay, let's get this straight, Lucifer only wanted God to accept equality...but Oh no, mister compassion freaks out totally, Starts a war...(The first case of religion-based war?)and then mr I'm so great I made everything sentences poor old lucifer to forever dwell in hell.....just because lucifer was so beautiful all creation found itself attracted to it....so, basically God was jealous, petty, vindictive, and desperately unkind

Lucifer's very existence is the result of his rebellion. Until he rebelled, that which was part of him was indistinguishable from that which was part of God; it was only through breaking away from the rest of God that it found its identity. I think God would be more than happy to let Lucifer in on the deal, but to do so, he must relinquish his individuality and uniqueness, and the "Prince" is too proud to accept that condition.

Lucifer's very existence is the result of his rebellion. Until he rebelled, that which was part of him was indistinguishable from that which was part of God; it was only through breaking away from the rest of God that it found its identity. I think God would be more than happy to let Lucifer in on the deal, but to do so, he must relinquish his individuality and uniqueness, and the "Prince" is too proud to accept that condition.
Ooh, speaking of the bolded part, perhaps this is a good time to bring up Job.
Should i?

*winces* These arguments are so small-minded that it hurts.

For a start, God is infinitely powerful. He doesn't ask to be worshipped because he has low self-esteem, but because he is omniscient - it's owed to him. Half the problem with all these arguments is that people are trying to put God within a human mindset, and that doesn't work. He goes far above what we can comprehend. For God not to cast Lucifer out of heaven would have been a diminishment of his power, and a corruption of his purity. And Lucifer hasn't asked forgiveness, so he hasn't been forgiven.

As for Abraham begging God not to destroy Sodom, come on. God, for a start, chose to walk on earth in a human form and talk to Abraham. As it turned out, there were no righteous people in Sodom - so God's judgement was fully justified. He still sent two angels to remove Lot from the city, for Abraham's sake. Honestly, I have no idea what Straughn is trying to get at with that.

*winces* These arguments are so small-minded that it hurts.

For a start, God is infinitely powerful. He doesn't ask to be worshipped because he has low self-esteem, but because he is omniscient - it's owed to him. Half the problem with all these arguments is that people are trying to put God within a human mindset, and that doesn't work. He goes far above what we can comprehend. For God not to cast Lucifer out of heaven would have been a diminishment of his power, and a corruption of his purity.
And Lucifer hasn't asked forgiveness, so he hasn't been forgiven.

As for Abraham begging God not to destroy Sodom, come on. God, for a start, chose to walk on earth in a human form and talk to Abraham. As it turned out, there were no righteous people in Sodom - so God's judgement was fully justified. He still sent two angels to remove Lot from the city, for Abraham's sake. Honestly, I have no idea what Straughn is trying to get at with that.
That's the problem. You can't see the difference between the farce of "justice" that is ascribed to "God" and the actual instance of it. Until you risk something personal and spiritual, you may never know, either.
Bolded 2- God didn't know everything than did he?
Bolded 1- the lack of comprehension is based on the myriad plot holes and inconsistencies that the religious expect people to swallow. It's not that we don't get it - it's that the editors were pathetic, and reached out a little too far for credibility.

So he's omnipotent but not omniscient? Explains a Lot.
Oh wait .... omnipotence ...
Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Mark 6:5
And he could there do no mighty work.

Hebrews 6:18
It was impossible for God to lie.
(KJ)

What's that about "God" being a lesser to chariots and elements?
Hmmm?

Half the problem with all these arguments is that people are trying to put God within a human mindset, and that doesn't work. He goes far above what we can comprehend.

I think I read in some book that humans were made in his image.

And if Steven Hawkings starts blowing up cities and turning people into pillars of sodium chloride, it doesn't matter if his intellect is far above what I can comprehend, he's still a bastard.

He doesn't ask to be worshipped because he has low self-esteem, but because he is omniscient - it's owed to him.

Well Q from Star Trek is omniscient. I suppose worship is owed to him too. And I suppose we should lob some prayers towards the world champion of trivial pursuit because she knows a hell of a lot and is pretty omniscient compared to the average person. That is, after I'm done praying to the library of Congress.

As it turned out, there were no righteous people in Sodom - so God's judgement was fully justified.

Children in Sodom were born evil? There is something very Nazish about this idea, that a certain group is entirely evil. Or are you going to tell me that Soddomites didn't have children? In that case the problem would have taken care of itself.

Well Q from Star Trek is omniscient. I suppose worship is owed to him too. And I suppose we should lob some prayers towards the world champion of trivial pursuit because she knows a hell of a lot and is pretty omniscient compared to the average person. That is, after I'm done praying to the library of Congress.

And Wikipedia. *nod*

I asked a satanist once, "So do the little old ladies at the Church of Satan have bake sales?" Everyone at the table spit beer out their nose.

I crack myself up. LOL =D

Yes they do. You probably don't want to know exactly what gets baked into the pies though.:eek:

Christianity needs polytheism. Wait, it already is. Why? Because polytheist religions are those of which consist of more than one diety. God is a diety. Jesus is a diety. Lucifer is a diety. Satan is a diety. Dante is a diety. So techincally, for all their saying that they're "monotheists", they're actually polytheists. But we could use more than one "all powerful gods" in Christianity.

Christianity needs polytheism. Wait, it already is. Why? Because polytheist religions are those of which consist of more than one diety. God is a diety. Jesus is a diety. Lucifer is a diety. Satan is a diety. Dante is a diety. So techincally, for all their saying that they're "monotheists", they're actually polytheists. But we could use more than one "all powerful gods" in Christianity.

Dante was an author, not a diety.

Dante was an author, not a diety.
People tend to commonly refer to him as one of the "Hell" dieties. I wouldn't be suprised if he became on when he died, if hell exists.

This thread is pretty silly.

People tend to commonly refer to him as one of the "Hell" dieties. I wouldn't be suprised if he became on when he died, if hell exists.

The four Crown Princes of Hell:
Satan
Lucifer
Belial
Leviathan.

The four Crown Princes of Hell:
Satan
Lucifer
Belial
Leviathan.
What ever. But it's still multiple dieties.

Supernatural entities and deities aren't quite the same thing.

Supernatural entities and deities aren't quite the same thing.
But the "Crown Princes of Hell" are divine (Ok more Anti-divine, but it's still essentially the same thing), so that makes them gods. (Or anti-gods. Your choice)

What ever. But it's still multiple dieties.

Yes. But I'm not a xtian.;)

But the "Crown Princes of Hell" are divine (Ok more Anti-divine, but it's still essentially the same thing), so that makes them gods. (Or anti-gods. Your choice)

The Crown Princes of Hell have nothing to do with divinity (or anti-divinity). I see you haven't read your Satanic Bible recently.:D

no, There is only One God. He was three parts, and yet is still one God. Much like the shamrock, it has three leaves and and yet it is one plant. As for Satan, he is not a deity. He is a powerful, supernatural entity who rages against God because God chose Jesus, a part of Him, over Satan.