NationStates Jolt Archive


Down with the watchlist!

Cyrian space
08-05-2006, 07:00
Yes, I am talking about the suspected terrorist watchlist. I was going to post this a while ago, but I just havent found myself in the proper state of outrage until tonight. I am talking about the no fly list, on which the names of Cat Stevens, Senator Ted Kennedy, and 325,000 other American citizens names appear. The criteria for the list is "Being in some way associated with terrorism" which means that you can get put on it for going to the same mosque as a suspected terrorist, joining the same book club, attending the same classes, purchasing a one way ticket, or any other reason. I could get on the list for posting this thread, if someone in the CIA, FBI, or NSA descided that I should. Ted Kennedy is still the only person known to have had his name removed from the list.

If you get put on the list, it means that they won't let you fly on a plane in America. It also means that if you get arrested for anything, you might be detained for months. This whole topic was spurred because while I was in florida, I read a local newspaper that discussed an egyptian club owner who was put on the list, arrested on charges that were lated dropped due to complete lack of evidence, and then detained for eight months while his business floundered, and bills piled up. He was financially ruined by the US govt. and they have the power to do this to anyone.

If your name is similer to that of a suspected terrorist, you are effectively on the list. If you have had any "Suspicious" financial activity, you could be on the list. If you are from, or have ever visited, or have family in, any middle eastern country you could be on the list. You won't know 'til they stop you, and possibly detain you for months.

Also, according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-fly_list) there have already been numerous abuses. * In August 2004, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) revealed to a Senate Judiciary Committee discussing the no-fly list that he had appeared on the list and had been repeatedly delayed at airports. He said it had taken him three weeks of appeals directly to Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to have him removed from the list of potential terrorists. Kennedy said that he was eventually told that the name "T Kennedy" was once used as an alias of a suspected terrorist and thus the name was added to the list. There are estimated to be around 7,000 American men called T Kennedy. Recognising that as a senator he was in a privileged position in being able to contact Ridge, Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens", "How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"
* Jesselyn Radack, a former DoJ ethics advisor who argued that John Walker Lindh was entitled to an attorney, was placed on the no-fly list as part of what many believe to be a reprisal for her whistleblowing.
* James Moore, an Emmy-winning television news correspondent, co-author of Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential, political activist, and outspoken critic of the Bush Administration, was placed on the no-fly list. [3]
* US Representative John Lewis (D-GA), widely known for his civil rights advocacy, has been stopped many times [4]
* In September 2004, former pop singer Cat Stevens (who converted to Islam and changed his name to "Yusuf Islam" in 1978) was denied entry into the U.S. after his name was found on the list. [5]
* US Representative Don Young (R-AK), the 3rd most senior Republican in the House, was flagged in 2004 after he was mistaken by a computer for a "Donald Lee Young" [6]
* Several children, too young to be seriously considered as terrorists, have generated false positives. Among them are a four year old [7] and a 9 month old [8].
* Dr. Robert Johnson, a surgeon and a former lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army, was told in 2006 that he was on the list, although he had had no problem in flying the month before. Johnson was running as a Democrat against U.S. Representative John McHugh, a Republican. Johnson wondered whether he was on the list because of his opposition to the Iraq War. He stated, "This could just be a government screw-up, but I don't know, and they won't tell me." [9]
* James W. Walter and William Rodriguez claim to be on the list [10]. The two are campaigners for a new independent investigation into the events of September 11, 2001, saying the original commission was a cover up.


So I say down with the watchlist, and somebody damn well better start watching the watchmen.
Cyrian space
08-05-2006, 07:34
bump
Peisandros
08-05-2006, 07:53
Mmm.. Indeed, reading all those failures it does seem that there is a pretty major problem. I'm not sure that the whole watchlist should be ditched but it seems it really does need a lot of work.
Svalbardania
08-05-2006, 08:03
Its all the crappy paranoia... but can you really blame them? Perhaps just much tighter control, and much tougher criteria to get on the list.
The Infinite Dunes
08-05-2006, 10:26
How about down with the terror alert system as well. Thay only seems to have been used as a political tool.
Damor
08-05-2006, 10:34
Instead of banning people on the no-fly list, they should just search them for any weapons, then give them a sedative, and bring them back to consciousness when they've arrived at their destination.
There's no reason why you can't be paranoid and not still let people travel wherever they want..
Darwinianmonkeys
08-05-2006, 11:03
I think if a person is planning to fly and they think there may be a possibility their name is on the no-fly watch list they should take the time to be sure there will not be a problem. The following tells you how you can have the least amount of delay at the airport even is your name is on the no-fly list.

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/PIV_Form.pdf

Sure it takes extra time and effort, and needs to be done in advance of flying, but personally I think anyone who wants to fly can take the time. If you don't think it is important then personally I don't think you should fly.

Let's not forget that the no-fly watch list has been around long before 9/11. Yes, it has definately become bigger, but following 9/11 and in this day of rampant identity theft we cannot be too careful, even if that means someone is inconvenienced.
Turquoise Days
08-05-2006, 11:14
I think if a person is planning to fly and they think there may be a possibility their name is on the no-fly watch list they should take the time to be sure there will not be a problem. The following tells you how you can have the least amount of delay at the airport even is your name is on the no-fly list.

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/PIV_Form.pdf

Sure it takes extra time and effort, and needs to be done in advance of flying, but personally I think anyone who wants to fly can take the time. If you don't think it is important then personally I don't think you should fly.


Oh good. Now we have permits for travel. Well that's just great.
Not bad
08-05-2006, 11:24
I think Kennedy should be put back on the list.

His son should certainly be on the no-drive list.
Kyronea
08-05-2006, 11:26
Oh good. Now we have permits for travel. Well that's just great.
Watch. We'll have permits for being a parant next.
Yossarian Lives
08-05-2006, 11:38
So I say down with the watchlist, and somebody damn well better start watching the watchmen.
Your name veel also go on ze leest.
Cyrian space
09-05-2006, 04:16
Your name veel also go on ze leest.
I am honestly afraid of that result. In america I am honestly afraid that my name will be put on a list, which will cause me all kinds of problems. It's not just an airport security issue--people have been detained for months because their name appeared on the list. The man I mentioned in the OP was an American citizen, and hadn't been to egypt in 20 years. Now he can't ever go back, because even though he was cleared of charges in America (well, kind of. They didn't clear him so much as admit that they had no reason to hold him) he believes that the egyption govt. would execute him as a terrorist if he returned.
Muravyets
09-05-2006, 05:54
This is why I believe Americans should have a limited right to sue their government. Fuck ups this bad deserve a good sharp slap.

In the absence of a right sue the government, private citizens need to use the media and go public with tales of injustice. It worked against the IRS, and they are the scariest department in the whole gov. Nowhere near as bad as they used to be, though.
Desperate Measures
09-05-2006, 05:57
How about down with the terror alert system as well. Thay only seems to have been used as a political tool.
I also use it when choosing socks in the morning.
The Five Castes
09-05-2006, 06:09
I don't really have a problem with them keeping lists. Especially when they keep their records so incompotently. That incompotence is really refreshing when one has spent so much time believing in conspiracy theories. If they can't even keep their lists accurate, how can I expect them to have the compotence to mastermind terrorist attacks on American soil as a political ploy to establish a christian theocracy in a major nuclear power? (Then again, maybe this apparent incompotence is just another facet of their ingenious plan, meant to lure me into a false sense of security.)

What I have a problem with is infringing on the rights of people who haven't done anything wrong. You can't (morally) put suspects on a no-fly list. You can't arbitrarily lock people away because you decided to put their name on a list.

Wether through incompotence, or malevolent intent, the use of these lists to further political agendas, and to infringe on the rights of those who have never been proven to have done anything wrong is something that has occured, and it must be stopped.
Non Aligned States
09-05-2006, 06:20
If they can't even keep their lists accurate, how can I expect them to have the compotence to mastermind terrorist attacks on American soil as a political ploy to establish a christian theocracy in a major nuclear power? (Then again, maybe this apparent incompotence is just another facet of their ingenious plan, meant to lure me into a false sense of security.)

Frankly, I just think they pick names by throwing darts at name lists. That and picking out political opponents.


Wether through incompotence, or malevolent intent, the use of these lists to further political agendas, and to infringe on the rights of those who have never been proven to have done anything wrong is something that has occured, and it must be stopped.

The question isn't whether they should be stopped from using these lists to penalize people just because they say so. That's a given. The question is how do you make them stop?
Muravyets
09-05-2006, 07:13
Frankly, I just think they pick names by throwing darts at name lists. That and picking out political opponents.



The question isn't whether they should be stopped from using these lists to penalize people just because they say so. That's a given. The question is how do you make them stop?
It took many, many years (a couple of decades) of legal actions and investigative journalism to make the IRS quit invading people's homes with armed police units, imprisoning them without court hearings, and taking all their property over $100 discrepancies in their tax returns, but I'm old enough to tell you, the difference is noticeable and for the better.
Cyrian space
09-05-2006, 07:43
I've gotten so pissed with all the domestic spying and bullshit going on in the intelligence agencies, that I feel like the entire thing needs to be scrapped, burned, and rebuilt from the ground, with new rules that center on keeping abuses like this from happening.

Of course, we can't do that right yet, but some major reforms have to go on.
The Infinite Dunes
09-05-2006, 08:08
I also use it when choosing socks in the morning.What have you got against green and red socks?
Keiretsu
09-05-2006, 08:25
Does this mean I can get put on the list for posting on an internet forum about it? :eek:
Cyrian space
09-05-2006, 08:33
What have you got against green and red socks?
Nothing against green and red, it's the amber ones. They're just so hard to find!

Does this mean I can get put on the list for posting on an internet forum about it?
You'll know soon enough, won't you. We all will...