NationStates Jolt Archive

Are humans mostly good, and should be left to their own business for the most part, with some protections (or none if you're an anarchist)? Or are they mostly evil, with the state needing to control them in order to sustain civilization? This debate, I believe, is essential to the concept of liberty. Vote, and say why you think the way you do.

Humans are neither good nor evil innately.

Oh, and what planet would the state be from in the situation where people are all inherently evil?

Humans are neither good nor evil innately.

Oh, and what planet would the state be from in the situation where people are all inherently evil?

Planet Thomas Hobbes.

I don't think humans are born either way. The way they are raised, their daily influences, their genes, social pressure all determine what kind of person they will be. Besides, I don't think there is good and evil. Just hate, greed, compassion, and humor. And other emotions like that.

Humans are naturally selfish, that's it. When you're a little child and haven't any moral values instilled in you, you want everything to be perfect for yourself, and to have everything. If you're denied something that you've previously had, it's an outrage.

So tell me, do you consider selfishness good, evil, or neither, so I can vote in the poll appropriately?

Humans are naturally selfish, that's it. When you're a little child and haven't any moral values instilled in you, you want everything to be perfect for yourself, and to have everything. If you're denied something that you've previously had, it's an outrage.

So tell me, do you consider selfishness good, evil, or neither, so I can vote in the poll appropriately?

Whichever one you like. I can't decide as an arbiter from your reasoning- only you can.

There is neither good nor evil. Everything can be justified.

i think we're ultimately self-serving... whether this is classified as good or evil is a matter or personal opinion i suppose, i think it really depends on how you look at it.

personally, i don't think we're innately either of the two

Humans are intrinsically good. It is an evolutionary device that ensures that the species does not die out because of selfishness.

Humans are by natural nature, survivors. This is why we've outdone every other species despite the fact that they're stronger, faster, have much more powerful natural abilities, etc.

Survival is quite difficult at times, so it's natural that humans try to survive by any means neccessary, which is why a good deal of humans are seen as evil. But most humans are just like animals - they have to survive to the best of their abilities amongst competitors.

Babies are like blank pages

Whichever one you like. I can't decide as an arbiter from your reasoning- only you can.

Then I will define selfishness as evil, and selflessness as good, because in the pure sense of the word, that's what they are. I guess logic would be neutral.

I think it would help the discussion if I were to clarify, and say that by 'good' one is more endorsing the Lockean view of humanity, that man in its natural state will behave, and that the state does not have to be as active, and Hobbes, who contends that life would be chaotic and brutal without government and that government is necessary to control all the people's desires which would tear civilization apart.

I am not good, I am not evil. I am what I and others think I am. My actions define me.

Are humans mostly good, and should be left to their own business for the most part, with some protections (or none if you're an anarchist)? Or are they mostly evil, with the state needing to control them in order to sustain civilization? This debate, I believe, is essential to the concept of liberty. Vote, and say why you think the way you do.
Evil unless babtized.

Evil unless babtized.

LMAO! Welcome to the forums, and it's nice that you entered in with a little bit of humour :D

There is no human nature. That is a fallacious concept. Similarities between humans are due only to similarities in enviroment.

Evil unless baptised

Corrected it for you. No need to thank me.

Humans in order to survive can be selfish or selfless, but in a natural state it would seem that it would be best for them to be selfless in order to work together as a functional unit

There is no human nature. That is a fallacious concept. Similarities between humans are due only to similarities in enviroment.
Indeed there is no human nature. All that matters is whether Baptism, or the lack thereof. You are correct.

Evil unless baptized.
:eek: Then I've been evil for 14 years!!!

Anyway, I believe that humans are naturally stupid with great potential to lean towards either side.
But I do believe that there is good in everyone. We're innocent at birth, so I'd say that makes us good from the start.
Everything that would make us evil comes later.

Then again, there was even good left in http://stuff2do.systs.net/yabbfiles/Smilies/sw_vader.gif.

Corrected it for you. No need to thank me.
I'll spell as I see fit.

Well, I believe that humans are basically "Evil" in a classical, or biblical sense. However, I disagree with Hobbes when he argues for strong government. I believe that regardless of human nature, there should be little government influence on daily life. So that humans can kill each other off...until there's no one left.

I hate people

I hate people
As long as you are baptized, that is just fine, child.

I'll spell as I see fit.

Oh no you won't. Not on my turf, bitch.

Oh no you won't. Not on my turf, bitch.
What rudeness. Have you been baptized, little one?

I am baptized but I don't see how splashing 'holy water' on my head as a baby will keep me from understaking actions that are considered 'evil'.

I am baptized but I don't see how splashing 'holy water' on my head as a baby will keep me from understaking actions that are considered 'evil'.
It is not the actions that matter but the actioner.

I like pudding.

What rudeness. Have you been baptized?

Corrected it for you again. You're welcome.

There is no human nature. That is a fallacious concept. Similarities between humans are due only to similarities in enviroment.

I find that unlikely. How is it that all the starting humans began dominating all their subspecies primate relatives? That they all began developing societies, began slaughtering each other for land, religion and wealth?

'Holy water' won't keep me from bashing in a nun's head or curing AIDS.

'Holy water' won't keep me from bashing in a nun's head or curing AIDS.
No, but those actions are not evil if you have been properly baptized.

Good and evil are what you make it. Your actions and beliefs are percieved by yourself and others to be good or evil. What you think is evil, another may think is good.

What we think is evil is nothing more than hate and greed.

Definitely good.

I find humans born intrinsically good. Studies have even been shown that a toddler will aid another human, either child or adult, without requiring praise or reward. Altruism.

http://www.azcentral.com/families/education/articles/0302helpfulbabies-ON.html

It is our environments that make us into selfish beings, demanding praise and admonition, depending on the instance.

Yes, a baby is not capable of taking care of itself, it lacks much of the required mental development and knowledge.

It is only when we see absurdities and inequalities in our surroundings that the demise of inherit 'goodness' begins.

Good and evil are what you make it. Your actions and beliefs are percieved by yourself and others to be good or evil. What you think is evil, another may think is good.

What we think is evil is nothing more than hate and greed.

I believe what he means is that what General society's ideals of Good and Evil are.

Good and evil are what you make it. Your actions and beliefs are percieved by yourself and others to be good or evil. What you think is evil, another may think is good.
Well said. And I think that what the baptized do, is always good.

There are baptized murders, rapists, and drug addicts

There are baptized murders, rapists, and drug addicts
....the mysterious ways in which the Lord moves...

Then you say those people are good?

Well said. And I think that what the baptized do, is always good.

What is your obsession with baptism?

It's not a matter of a human being "born" good or bad, but rather, of a human being born with an inner connection to other humans. That is, the toddler example does not illustrate "good will", but rather mammalian nature, as even monkeys will help out their fellow monkeys. When people say that humans are evil until they are "saved", they fail to realize that one does not need spirituality to have morality. Morality is in all humans, although in the course of time humans may or may not rediscover their morality (for example, a "good" person trying to "save" the world by mass genocide would have very bad social morality, whilst a "bad" person campaigning rights and freedom for "bad" people would have good social morality.)

One person's definition of good and bad generally does not lay out the foundations of all things good and bad.

Humans are not naturally evil, or naturally good. They do what they think is right, although some people may think that what they do is wrong, it's all based on upbringing. :eek: :gundge: :D

Then you say those people are good?
They serve the Lord, to an ulterior, maximous purpose, of which we cannot know. Those people are good, unless of course the have not really been baptized, or taken up a different, therefor wrong, faith. Are you sure they were baptized?

What is your obsession with baptism?
It is good

I think humans are naturally egotistical and self-centered. Let's face it, we know ourselves better than anyone else.
Not EXACTLY evil, but certainly not out for the greater good, either.

Gkod, I'm confused. I'm baptized, does that mean if I beat a nun to death, then all is still right in the world, even if society scorns me for it?

Neither in my mind anyway. It all comes down to the actions we chose that shape the opinions of if we are evil or good.

Personally, I like pudding.

But seriously, I find great difficulty in attributing the values of 'good and evil' on a person. Let us put aside my observation that they are supernatural definitions that would if existant remove responsibility for certain acts by individuals to a higher power, whether it be a force of evil or good. I challenge the notion that all of humanity could be considered so polar and extreme.

Let us imagine that 'good and evil' did exist. I would see humanity as a very rounded species being more greyish than black and white in its temperament. I see humans just as capable of acts I would personally consider reprehensible as it would be of acts of greatness and mercy.

That said, I don't hold the idea of 'good and bad' as an absolute either. The question one must ask themselves is; good for whom?

Gkod, I'm confused. I'm baptized, does that mean if I beat a nun to death, then all is still right in the world, even if society scorns me for it?
It is not for you to understand the ways of the lord. So confusion is natural. The world will be fine.

So how does a toddler helping another human being not represent good? Is helping another person an evil thing? If a Nazi from 60 years ago helped a Jew, yes that may be deemed as an "evil" thing, but unless you are so biased and prejudiced that is not evil.

Good and evil are not seperate entities, just a different manifestation of the same aspect.

It is our outside influences that make us 'evil' to others. I would like you to fill a room full of toddlers from all over the world. Heck, even throw Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt, Mao Zedong, Kubla Khan, etc., etc., etc.. They would all help any person in that room.. How is that not naturally good? So it mammalian instinct, but the act of cooperating and aiding one another, FOR NO PERSONAL GAIN, is an act of good.

I think humans are naturally egotistical and self-centered. Let's face it, we know ourselves better than anyone else.
Not EXACTLY evil, but certainly not out for the greater good, either.
Because that would make us Tau, not humans :D

You are crazy

You are crazy
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/taxi16.jpg

People naturally look out for their own well-being. Some people believe that is best achieved by a promotion of the greater good, others attempt to accomplish this end by more self-serving means. The issue then, is not one of: "are humans good or evil?", but of training. Are humans taught to pursue 'good' or are they conditioned to endeavor for 'evil'. The real topic for this thread should be: what is the best method for convincing people that helping others will ultimately benefit them in an attempt to promote what society has deemed 'good'.

Not you, I meant Gkod

People naturally look out for their own well-being. Some people believe that is best achieved by a promotion of the greater good, others attempt to accomplish this end by more self-serving means. The issue then, is not one of: "are humans good or evil?", but of training. Are humans taught to pursue 'good' or are they conditioned to endeavor for 'evil'. The real topic for this thread should be: what is the best method for convincing people that helping others will ultimately benefit them in an attempt to promote what society has deemed 'good'.

How can you explain altruism in toddlers then? I gave a link to the study a few posts ago.

The simple fact that doing the wrong thing makes (most of) us feel bad is proof that human beings are basicly good.

Not you, I meant Gkod
Phew! ;)

I think humans are naturally egotistical and self-centered. Let's face it, we know ourselves better than anyone else.
Not EXACTLY evil, but certainly not out for the greater good, either.

I would concur with the first part your statement. It is a part of any lifeform to be egotistical and self-centred. I call this instinct.

However I do hold issue with the final part which states that we are certainly not out for the greater good. Humanity is an organism with great intellectual complexity (despite the possibility that we are stupid a lot of the time or perhaps that is why we are stupid a lot of the time).

I would argue that we have instinct but that we also have conscience and contemplation. We are not all drawn by the urge to defend the self and the interests of the self as the simple animal may be. We are beyond that at times instead defending and fighting in situations that may not directly affect the self (activism or war?)

I would argue that while we are bound to instinct, we also, as humans have the potential to override it.

"Are humans naturally good or evil?"

Yes.

"Are humans naturally good or evil?"

Yes.

Case closed. Eutrusca has done it once again.

People naturally look out for their own well-being. Some people believe that is best achieved by a promotion of the greater good, others attempt to accomplish this end by more self-serving means. The issue then, is not one of: "are humans good or evil?", but of training. Are humans taught to pursue 'good' or are they conditioned to endeavor for 'evil'. The real topic for this thread should be: what is the best method for convincing people that helping others will ultimately benefit them in an attempt to promote what society has deemed 'good'.

I dont follow that line of argument at all. If self-gain was the only driving motivation in doing good, why does a firefighter run into a burning building? Why does a monk dedicate his life to praying for others? Why does a parent care for their child, born mentally disabled? You seem to believe we are a race of cold hearted machines, even though there is proof of the good in people all around you.

I dont follow that line of argument at all. If self-gain was the only driving motivation in doing good, why does a firefighter run into a burning building? Why does a monk dedicate his life to praying for others? Why does a parent care for their child, born mentally disabled? You seem to believe we are a race of cold hearted machines, even though there is proof of the good in people all around you.

Exactly my point; instinct can be overriden.

Exactly my point; instinct can be overriden.
Free will, in a nutshell. People are tempted to be selfish, but the fact that they frequently choose not to be is proof of the existance of "good"

Free will, in a nutshell. People are tempted to be selfish, but the fact that they frequently choose not to be is proof of the existance of "good"

Well. That is if good exists. Or is a useful descriptor.

I think that people are inherently evil because they don't have enough pudding. If everyone would have a cup or two of pudding a day, we'd have harmony on earth.

And kinky sex in pudding tubs!

I think that people are inherently evil because they don't have enough pudding. If everyone would have a cup or two of pudding a day, we'd have harmony on earth.

And kinky sex in pudding tubs!
I do believe that is what the world lacks most... kinky sex. Who cares about good or evil.

"Are humans naturally good or evil?"

Yes.
Really? Why? I'd have said they were neither, simply for the reason that good and evil are arbitrarily chosen concepts by any given society, but if you know some neutral qualifier to decide whether or not humans are good or evil then I'd like to hear it.

Well. That is if good exists. Or is a useful descriptor.

A clever manager in a big company discovers he can live comfortably by stealing one cent from all his worker's weekly wages. There is no way they can find out, and they are only loosing one cent a week. But wouldnt you still frown on this man?

What if I feel that Humans are naturally evil, and so we shouldn't have government because such governments are, inevitably, made up of Humans. So, until you can find me some perfect alien/machine dictator that can produce perfect happiness through its rule, I'll pass on the whole "trust people whom I don't personally know with the power to run my life"-thing.

A clever manager in a big company discovers he can live comfortably by stealing one cent from all his worker's weekly wages. There is no way they can find out, and they are only loosing one cent a week. But wouldnt you still frown on this man?

I would but that is my morality, not his. Can you trully know that the man thinks it immoral or that others trully think it immoral?

I believe humans are naturally neutral. *Doesn't necessarily believe in good/evil, though.*

Good or Evil....what have they to do with nature???

Babies are like blank pages

But tell me this: Are blank pages... good... or EVIL? ;)

I do believe that is what the world lacks most... kinky sex. Who cares about good or evil.

Concurred. We just need to make something like a switch that you can turn off the ovary from releasing the egg. I mean, your partner probably has no STDs anyways, so you can have skin-on-skin contact without the difficulties of, you know, childbirth.

Everyone wins.

I would but that is my morality, not his. Can you trully know that the man thinks it immoral or that others trully think it immoral?

If such a man were to examine his conscience, he would have to admit he was being dishonest, and taking something that didnt belong to him. But all human beings have the ablility to ignore their consciences. The fact that he steals does not mean he really believes it is ok to steal.

I'm a Christian, so I believe people are inherently evil.

That said, I most definitely like pudding. Mmmmm.

I cant believe pudding got more votes than naturally good :p

If such a man were to examine his conscience, he would have to admit he was being dishonest, and taking something that didnt belong to him. But all human beings have the ablility to ignore their consciences. The fact that he steals does not mean he really believes it is ok to steal.

And if he found nothing?

Here is Biblical proof showing why all humans are inherently evil:
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
So, if all humans are inherently evil, then why doesn't the world stink so bad?

--For one, it does stink so bad. But there are good people in the world because the Laws of Nature are written on the hearts of men and because law and righteousness come from the Bible.

Mmmm pudding! Ice cream and jelly. Perhaps a little chocolate sauce too.

Here's another way of looking at the two ideas.

Good and Evil are human concepts designed to represent two approaches to getting away with self-indulgence. Good is justifying getting or taking what you want or need in a sense of righteousness by acting generally altruistically for the rest of the time (generally in ways convenient to them). Evil is taking what you want remorselessly and directly then trying to cover your tracks or prevent any negative consequences.

I'd say we're either both or neither naturally. We're all selfish, and thus these ways are open to us, but I don't think we're tied to either of them.

Here's another way of looking at the two ideas.

Good and Evil are human concepts designed to represent two approaches to getting away with self-indulgence. Good is justifying getting or taking what you want or need in a sense of righteousness by acting generally altruistically for the rest of the time (generally in ways convenient to them). Evil is taking what you want remorselessly and directly then trying to cover your tracks or prevent any negative consequences.

I'd say we're either both or neither naturally. We're all selfish, and thus these ways are open to us, but I don't think we're tied to either of them.
Have you noticed the fact that 'we' are always good? Evil, on the other hand, is what some 'others' are.

Have you noticed the fact that 'we' are always good? Evil, on the other hand, is what some 'others' are.

My point in another context.
If evil existed, would it think itself evil?

What if I feel that Humans are naturally evil, and so we shouldn't have government because such governments are, inevitably, made up of Humans. So, until you can find me some perfect alien/machine dictator that can produce perfect happiness through its rule, I'll pass on the whole "trust people whom I don't personally know with the power to run my life"-thing.
"That government is best which governs least."
"The people are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
--Thomas Jefferson

The government should not be running your life; Jesus Christ should.

People can do good by allowing themselves to be guided by the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Laws of Nature inscribed on their hearts. A government official, a civil magistrate, is a minister of God. Humans are naturally evil, but there are varying degrees of evil and you'll find that Christians are those who are least evil. A Christian government (and the US's current administration is NOT Christian as some Republicans will tell you) will tend to be better than others, even if it can occassionally commit evil. But the people are there to stop that.

"That government is best which governs least."
"The people are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
--Thomas Jefferson

The government should not be running your life; Jesus Christ should.

People can do good by allowing themselves to be guided by the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Laws of Nature inscribed on their hearts. A government official, a civil magistrate, is a minister of God. Humans are naturally evil, but there are varying degrees of evil and you'll find that Christians are those who are least evil. A Christian government (and the US's current administration is NOT Christian as some Republicans will tell you) will tend to be better than others, even if it can occassionally commit evil. But the people are there to stop that.

Erm, what?

I'm not going to RE Qoute all of Quamia's bible reference....But I will point out one thing that most christians miss.....the knowledge of good and evil..i.e..Gen 3.5..The knowing of good and evil is not the same as being evil. At no point in GOD's little rant at the little toys he made did he call them evil...also ..small theological point if God is omni-present..As in everywhere all the time..where was he when the whole serpent/eve..eve/adam thing went down..On holiday?

"That government is best which governs least."
"The people are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
--Thomas Jefferson

The government should not be running your life; Jesus Christ should.

People can do good by allowing themselves to be guided by the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Laws of Nature inscribed on their hearts. A government official, a civil magistrate, is a minister of God. Humans are naturally evil, but there are varying degrees of evil and you'll find that Christians are those who are least evil. A Christian government (and the US's current administration is NOT Christian as some Republicans will tell you) will tend to be better than others, even if it can occassionally commit evil. But the people are there to stop that.
Put your theocracy in a dark place please. :rolleyes:

Have you noticed the fact that 'we' are always good? Evil, on the other hand, is what some 'others' are.
Well yes, people do say that of themselves and their enemies. However, were that the case, the notion of a good or evil would break down into a simple descriptor of alliance. There is an idea of Goodness and Evil that extends beyond cultural identification, and I think mine adequately sums it up - how we justify getting what we desire.

The government should not be running your life; Jesus Christ should.
I don't want some 2 millenia old, hippie's corpse bossing me about any more than I want a still living hippie in charge.
The only person whom I can trust as being real, and genuinely holding my interestets at heart, is myself. The rest of you could just be a product of my own deranged mind.

And if he found nothing?
But that's the thing. He would find something. People don't just decide what's good and bad, they just naturally know it - the human conscience.
When someone does something wrong they ignore their conscience, and try to find ways to justify what they are doing.
The manager will tell himself he isnt harming anyone, and refuse to listen to the part of himself that knows he is being dishonest.
A more extreme example - the people behind the holocaust had to convince themselves the people they were murdering were not in fact human in order to carry out their orders.
Only a psychopath can knowingly commit evil and feel no remorse.
So, normal human beings are basicly good.

Humans are inherently good or evil, they have the choice on which path they will follow. I think that we have a built-in conscience (formed by evolution as a code of conduct for human relations, I don't believe in any creator or God) that tells us what is good, what is wrong, and what is neither.

(For example, murdering is wrong, generosity is good, and sex either inside or outside marriage is neither.)

Well yes, people do say that of themselves and their enemies. However, were that the case, the notion of a good or evil would break down into a simple descriptor of alliance. There is an idea of Goodness and Evil that extends beyond cultural identification, and I think mine adequately sums it up - how we justify getting what we desire.

Self interest is not the only motivation in human beings. As Ive already said, there is proof of this everywhere.

My point in another context.
If evil existed, would it think itself evil?

Evil would be unconcerned. Evil is the lack of moral beliefs.

My point in another context.
If evil existed, would it think itself evil?
Evil is self Knowledge taken to an extreme.....Good is self-delusion taken to an extreme,,,,So, No, Evil does not think itself evil....It knows....

(For example, murdering is wrong, generosity is good, and sex either inside or outside marriage is neither.)

That's an important point. There is basic morality, which is a fundamental human trait, and then theres cultural morality, which is entirely different. For example in one part of the world protitution is ok, wheras here it is frowned upon.

EDIT - I think thats whats causing the confusion here. Cultural morality is fickle, and varies. Basic human morality is not the same thing.

That's an important point. There is basic morality, which is a fundamental human trait, and then theres cultural morality, which is entirely different. For example in one part of the world protitution is ok, wheras here it is frowned upon.

EDIT - I think thats whats causing the confusion here. Cultural morality is fickle, and varies. Basic morality is not the same thing.
Basic morality is not a fundamental human trait otherwise children wouldn't need to be taught the difference between good and evil

I'm not going to RE Qoute all of Quamia's bible reference....But I will point out one thing that most christians miss.....the knowledge of good and evil..i.e..Gen 3.5..The knowing of good and evil is not the same as being evil. At no point in GOD's little rant at the little toys he made did he call them evil...also ..small theological point if God is omni-present..As in everywhere all the time..where was he when the whole serpent/eve..eve/adam thing went down..On holiday?

Depends on who you ask. I won't offer my opinion, as I'm about thirty seconds from sleeping and don't feel like debating.

However, my kinky sex in a pudding pool idea is really sounding like a good idea right now...

Basic morality is not a fundamental human trait otherwise children wouldn't need to be taught the difference between good and evil

Children are children. They need to be taught about how to eat and how to go to the toilet. Those things are in their nature too, they just need a little help coming to undertand them. Morality is the same. It isnt just learned off.
It is part of what makes us human, and we comprehend it better as we get older.

Children are children. They need to be taught about how to eat and how to go to the toilet. Those things are in their nature too, they just need a little help coming to undertand them. Morality is the same. It isnt just learned off.
It is part of what makes us human, and we comprehend it better as we get older.
Eating and defecating are biological functions of the body.....and yes, they are inherent...whereas Knowledge of morality is a learnt function of the mind

Eating and defecating are biological functions of the body.....and yes, they are inherent...whereas Knowledge of morality is a learnt function of the mind

Then why have people in every culture in the world arrived at the same conclusions independantly when it comes to questions like is it ok to kill? Steal? Hate? If you think all knowledge of human morality comes from then Bible, well, youre just plain wrong. What about everyone who lived before it was written? What about all the people who havnt ever read it today? Do they not know right and wrong?

Then why have people in every culture in the world arrived at the same conclusions independantly when it comes to questions like is it ok to kill? Steal? Hate? If you think all knowledge of human morality comes from then Bible, well, youre just plain wrong. What about everyone who lived before it was written? What about all the people who havnt ever read it today? Do they not know right and wrong?
I'm sorry if because I can quote the damn thing it implies that I give any credence to it.....The not Killing people thing...ok...it's not practical to kill your own tribal members..obvious conclusion that every culture would make...whereas call it war and killing the other tribe's member is OK. The notion of theft is based on a concept of individual ownership of property and said deprivation of ownership inconveniances ...therefore not good. Hate is, in almost every culture justifiable to some extent, and in some cultures there is even the concept of rightous hatred .

I'm sorry if because I can quote the damn thing it implies that I give any credence to it.....The not Killing people thing...ok...it's not practical to kill your own tribal members..obvious conclusion that every culture would make...whereas call it war and killing the other tribe's member is OK. The notion of theft is based on a concept of individual ownership of property and said deprivation of ownership inconveniances ...therefore not good. Hate is, in almost every culture justifiable to some extent, and in some cultures there is even the concept of rightous hatred .

Those were pretty black and white examples, what about what I said earlier? Something that harms noone, but is still wrong? The only logic system that allows for that kind of judgement is morality.
I'll say it again, just because someone does something wrong it does not mean they believe its all fine and dandy. War does not prove humans dont care about the rights and wrongs of it.
Doctrines of hate may be followed in any given culture, but only ever by a minority. Can you name a religion that encourages hate?
And yes, if youre going to use something as evidence to back up an argument, you are pretty much saying you believe it.

Those were pretty black and white examples, what about what I said earlier? Something that harms noone, but is still wrong? The only logic system that allows for that kind of judgement is morality.
I'll say it again, just because someone does something wrong it does not mean they believe its all fine and dandy. War does not prove humans dont care about the rights and wrongs of it.
Doctrines of hate may be followed in any given culture, but only ever by a minority. Can you name a religion that encourages hate?
And yes, if youre going to use something as evidence to back up an argument, you are pretty much saying you believe it.
point 1
I am not doubting the existance of morality, merely questioning the inherentness of it....
point 2
The notion of criminally insane is exactly that..someone not knowing they are doing wrong at the time they commit the crime,this doesn't mean they think it's fine and dandy, it means they have no moral concept at the moment of criminality, does this mean they are not human, as your argument stated that innate morality is "part of what makes us human."...?
point 3
Hmm, religions that encourage Hate....Christianity.(Crusades)...Islam.(JIHAD)..Enough to be going on with...?
point 4
The notion that by quoting the bible to show up the inconsistancies of christian doctrine is proof of belief is quite nonsenical, I was merely using they're own hypocrisy to annoy them, much as when I quote the Koran, or the upanishads, or the torah does that make me a christian,muslim, hindu, jew???????

Good and Evil are how we define behaviors and not an inherant part of any behavior. Practicing cannibalism was once being a "good person" on some islands in the South Pacific. Today in most large cities in say, the United Kingdom, cannibalism would be frowned upon and any practicing cannibal would be judged an evil person. Even in Liverpool or Glasgow. Would the same upright weegies and scousers eat folks if they had been raised in a society of cannibals in the South Pacific rather than modern day Great Britain? Of course they would. That is why I answered the poll "I like pudding"

there is no being, only doing.

=^^=
.../\...

Have them take the alignment test...then we will know for sure.

Humans are born True Neutral, and then learn to be Good or Evil, and then decide to become lawful or chaotic.

The wise ones return to True Neutral.

Thats my story and Im stickin to it.

Humans are naturally neither good nor evil. Being "good" and "evil" depends mostly (if not totally) on the education you receive, the experiences you live, the environement you grow in, the values you are teached, the society you are in.

Saddly, in a capitalist society that calls to and rewards greed and selfishness, the good part of humans is often weakened, and the evil one strengthned...

point 1
I am not doubting the existance of morality, merely questioning the inherentness of it.

I know.

point 2
The notion of criminally insane is exactly that..someone not knowing they are doing wrong at the time they commit the crime,this doesn't mean they think it's fine and dandy, it means they have no moral concept at the moment of criminality, does this mean they are not human, as your argument stated that innate morality is "part of what makes us human."...?

"No moral concept" would mean they have no sense of right and wrong, which is what I said. Im not talking about someone who claims they couldnt make a proper judgement because they were angry. I mean someone who's mind is not working properly and dosnt have a moral system like the rest of us. Most serial killers fall into this category. They are human, but their sense of right and wrong is impaired. Just as someone with downs syndrome is human, although their capability for thought is impaired.

point 3
Hmm, religions that encourage Hate....Christianity.(Crusades)...Islam.(JIHAD)..Enough to be going on with...? ."

First of all there is nothing in Christian scripture which encourages armed "crusade". And in thinking the crusades were about hate youre missing the point completely. They didnt set out to kill people, they set out to free the holy land. They were not motivated by hatred, but religious conviction. The Muslim expansion was the same, and the modern "Jihad" you are referring to is used only by a radical minority.
Yes hatred has come about as a result of religion, just as it has come about whenever humans support different teams. That does not mean either side actually endorses hatred.

point 4
The notion that by quoting the bible to show up the inconsistancies of christian doctrine is proof of belief is quite nonsenical, I was merely using they're own hypocrisy to annoy them, much as when I quote the Koran, or the upanishads, or the torah does that make me a christian,muslim, hindu, jew???????

fair enough

there is no being, only doing.

=^^=
.../\...

What about being inclined to do either right or wrong?

I'll spell as I see fit.

Eoo! Bo uncpjbejtiinap xowlling! :p

Self interest is not the only motivation in human beings. As Ive already said, there is proof of this everywhere.
It is often argued that that which isn't selfish is mere puppetry. People will forge links with others in an attempt to persuade them to take the bullet or protect them from other forms of harm. Family? Love? Friends? Sacrifice for each of these can be seen as a sort of passive-aggressive selfishness on their part in twisting you into protecting them.

Goil

Humans are born True Neutral, and then learn to be Good or Evil, and then decide to become lawful or chaotic.

The wise ones return to True Neutral.

Thats my story and Im stickin to it.
i'm probably chaotic good/neutral. good ranking system, that.

can i stab a stake through the heart of someone Chaotic Evil?

well humans are evil just look some of us rape young children, some kill each other (although thats kinda natural but we dont do it for the right reasons), we steal, and there is way more evil things we do as human then others also like eating/killing off other spicies of animal and destroying habitat

well humans are evil just look some of us rape young children, some kill each other (although thats kinda natural but we dont do it for the right reasons), we steal, and there is way more evil things we do as human then others also like eating/killing off other spicies of animal and destroying habitat
Wow, you do all that? You are one busy crazy person.

well humans are evil just look some of us rape young children, some kill each other (although thats kinda natural but we dont do it for the right reasons), we steal, and there is way more evil things we do as human then others also like eating/killing off other spicies of animal and destroying habitat
and some people are evil for not using more punctuation.

btw, other people don't do all those things, and in fact do the opposite, so at best, using your deterministic approach, humans are statistically neutral. which is probably true.

Humans are neither good nor evil. Especially in politics, it can be summed up in one word whether politicians (who are human people like you and I) are good or evil - realpolitik.

Humans include the two of them together.Otherwise it wouldn't be human.
all we have brains and hearts.when they are used on a way it would be our best way.so we have chance to choose to be good or evil.

Peace!

I'm going to side with Socrates on this one: a human does what he/she thinks is good. He/she will never look upon his/her actions as being evil or wrong at the time of doing it.

Oh and since it's mandatory for a first post: :mp5: :sniper: :gundge:

Humans, like all life-forms, are naturally good, because being good benefits them.

Good is what is beneficial to life, life-forms and the quality of life. When humans help others, they help themselves. When they care for animals, whether food, pet or other, they benefit themselves. When they promote order and peace in society, they benefit from it.

I heard an Objectivist speak last week; he made exactly the same argument Willamena just did.

Humans are naturally self-interested. That's a value-neutral statement, because Humans are naturally value-neutral.

I'm not willing to accept that anything is good or evil until someone can demonstrate that those labels mean something.

I heard an Objectivist speak last week; he made exactly the same argument Willamena just did.

Humans are naturally self-interested. That's a value-neutral statement, because Humans are naturally value-neutral.

I'm not willing to accept that anything is good or evil until someone can demonstrate that those labels mean something.
Well, I don't know what an Objectivist is, but self-interest is "good" as it benefits the subject. Of course, it could do so at the expense of another, in which case someone else's self-interest is "bad" to the person who is injured by it.

Everything is good and bad. The question posed, though, was are humans naturally good or evil. I suppose the most accurate answer is, "Yes." But being good comes more often, and I dare say more naturally, because it is beneficial.

People suck.

Does that answer your question? :p

Well, I don't know what an Objectivist is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_philosophy

There you go. Most Albertans should be familiar with Ayn Rand.

Naturally, humans are good creatures. It's just the system they are brought up in that brings about bad people. Capitalism encourages selfishness, competition, even oppression. It is a sub-conscious but capitalism turns people against one another.

It is often argued that that which isn't selfish is mere puppetry. People will forge links with others in an attempt to persuade them to take the bullet or protect them from other forms of harm. Family? Love? Friends? Sacrifice for each of these can be seen as a sort of passive-aggressive selfishness on their part in twisting you into protecting them.
What if you give your life for someone else? And you were atheist, fully believing you were giving up everything for that person?