NationStates Jolt Archive

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/tv/troublewith_gaymen.shtml

The Trouble With...
Gay Men



The Trouble With… Gay Men presents a personal view of the problems, pitfalls and clichés of being a gay man in Britain today.

In the programme, broadcaster and writer Simon Fanshawe (pictured below) decries the superficiality and promiscuity within the gay community.

Simon Fanshawe
Despite civil partnerships, substantial legal equality and the rise of HIV/Aids, Simon feels gay culture still worships the pursuit of sex, defies fidelity and treats sexual extremes as the norm. Gay men, he argues, are hooked on vanity, designer drugs and sex.

Simon illustrates his point by taking viewers from one extreme of gay culture to the other – from a gay sauna that's home to orgies, to a gay civil partnership ceremony. Simon wonders how, in a community that over-indulges in casual sex, gay couples can fight the forces that have become so ingrained in their culture?



Believing that gay men perpetuate the stereotypes, he hears from gay teenagers who feel there are no suitable role models on television who aren't "screaming queens".

Simon goes to the source of their chagrin to find out the views of Graham Norton, Big Brother housemate Josh Rafter, and uber-camp host of The Jules and Lulu Show, Julian Bennett.

On the flipside, he interviews Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick, who comments that: "There are gay people who come up to me and say 'I would never have joined the police service if it wasn't for your example.'"

Simon concludes that gay men have a new world at their fingertips. But to embrace it they will have to grow out of their teenage years of sex and drugs, and embrace a more settled future of fidelity and responsibility.

It may not be a popular view, but it's one that Simon stands by.

As a gay man, I wholeheartedly agree that "gay culture" is entirely too "sex-orientated." I don't consider myself a prude. I've indulged in it myself in the past (and still do, to some extent), but finding a 'partner' is difficult on a scene where most people want no form of attachment. Whereas I crave commitment and loyalty, a lot of the gay men I know want nothing of the sort - and it often depresses me. Sometimes I feel love is dead in the gay scene, even though it's entirely possible. I myself have fell in love with someone only to be told by them that they simply do not want love. The stereotype that gay men are more promiscuous than their straight counterparts may not be entirely true, but since there are less gay men than straight men, it appears that gay men are more promiscuous.

Sex is good. Love is better. Your thoughts?

Well, gay couples can't get pregnant so maybe that's why there's so much sex.

Well, gay couples can't get pregnant so maybe that's why there's so much sex.

There's a difference between sex and relationships, though. Sex is empty.

Maybe the fear that I've encountered in many gay men (example; use of genderless pronouns about boyfriends, "they" instead of "he") affects it. I mean, a one night stand puts you at less risk of being spotted by a gay basher than a relationship.

Maybe the fear that I've encountered in many gay men (example; use of genderless pronouns about boyfriends, "they" instead of "he") affects it. I mean, a one night stand puts you at less risk of being spotted by a gay basher than a relationship.


Hmm, that's a good point. I've never considered that.

I have a friend who hadn't come out in college yet. He was telling me he had broken up with his "partner", and that though he was happier without "them", "they" still wanted to be together. (or thats what my memory tells me. Its really bad). He didn't know my attitude toward homosexuality. So he didn't say they. He seemed nervous while talking. I dress in waistcoats and velvet, hardly standard neo-nazi gear. But he was still worried.

Why should gay people come out? Straights don't... Hmmm.

Maybe if these men stopped taking so many drugs then perhaps they would stop being gay.

Theres no point in gay love, your just going to be shaging men until you turn into an old fart and die(or you can die young with AIDS) and ultimately you would have nothing to show for it(no kids)

They can adopt kids. Granted, it may never feel the same as having your own kids that you helped make.

Why should gay people come out? Straights don't... Hmmm.
Yeah, they do, they just don't realise it and nobody notices.

Being gay is not a choice and it is not medically alterable. Hating someone for being gay (or, for that matter, making cruel attacks at them) is like hating someone for being African or Asian. Homosexuality is a natural response to overpopulation (being that it occurs in nature). You have a right (as a human) to hate gay people for being gay, but you're like a sexist if you do.

Maybe if these men stopped taking so many drugs then perhaps they would stop being gay.

Theres no point in gay love, your just going to be shaging men until you turn into an old fart and die(or you can die young with AIDS) and ultimately you would have nothing to show for it(no kids)
Anyone else want to rip this apart, or shall I do it?

I have to tell you all something...I'm straight

"How couldn't we have seen this?!" shouts my mother

"I have no son" my dad says

Anyone else want to rip this apart, or shall I do it?

I was about to, but please, go on. Let the young'uns have a go at the trolls once in a while.

*Steps aside*

I have a friend who hadn't come out in college yet. He was telling me he had broken up with his "partner", and that though he was happier without "them", "they" still wanted to be together. (or thats what my memory tells me. Its really bad). He didn't know my attitude toward homosexuality. So he didn't say they. He seemed nervous while talking. I dress in waistcoats and velvet, hardly standard neo-nazi gear. But he was still worried.

Why should gay people come out? Straights don't... Hmmm.

To be clear - what is your attitude to homosexuals?

As a gay man, I wholeheartedly agree that "gay culture" is entirely too "sex-orientated." I don't consider myself a prude. I've indulged in it myself in the past (and still do, to some extent), but finding a 'partner' is difficult on a scene where most people want no form of attachment. Whereas I crave commitment and loyalty, a lot of the gay men I know want nothing of the sort - and it often depresses me. Sometimes I feel love is dead in the gay scene, even though it's entirely possible. I myself have fell in love with someone only to be told by them that they simply do not want love. The stereotype that gay men are more promiscuous than their straight counterparts may not be entirely true, but since there are less gay men than straight men, it appears that gay men are more promiscuous.
I've noticed this before. I thought that it was because people just assumed someone was straight until proven otherwise, and so they would obviously then regard the gay community as more promiscuous than the straight community (as they would just assume by default that non-promiscuous people are straight). Does that make any sense?

Maybe if these men stopped taking so many drugs then perhaps they would stop being gay.

Theres no point in gay love, your just going to be shaging men until you turn into an old fart and die(or you can die young with AIDS) and ultimately you would have nothing to show for it(no kids)
You don't weigh up the "pros and cons" of different sexualities. You just are the way you are.

So, even if there was "no point in gay love" (which I protest anyway - any relationship that brings you happiness or is fullfilling or enjoyable or supportive or whatever, has a "point") it'd be irrelevant anyway.

So if you're a sterile woman you may as well join a convent or go off and die? Gay men love each other. Who are you to say that that has no point?

Exactly Nadkor. Why should gay people be different?

Also, to tangent REALLY soon, I'd like to ask Mindset a question. Strasse II implies that gay men choose to be gay. Do you feel that you did? Cos not being one, I don't know, and am curious.

Exactly Nadkor. Why should gay people be different?

They're not.

So if you're a sterile woman you may as well join a convent or go off and die? Gay men love each other. Who are you to say that that has no point?

Exactly Nadkor. Why should gay people be different?

Also, to tangent REALLY soon, I'd like to ask Mindset a question. Strasse II implies that gay men choose to be gay. Do you feel that you did? Cos not being one, I don't know, and am curious.

Ignore Strasse II. He is a neonazi troll that believes the holocaust never happened or somesuch rot. Homsexuality isn't a choice; you're born homosexual or straight or whatever.

Maybe if these men stopped taking so many drugs then perhaps they would stop being gay.

Theres no point in gay love, your just going to be shaging men until you turn into an old fart and die(or you can die young with AIDS) and ultimately you would have nothing to show for it(no kids)
This is the funniest thing I've heard all day. It's just stupid on so many levels.

If society stopped marginalising gay men, there would be no separate "gay scene" and they would behave more like the rest of us.

Maybe if these men stopped taking so many drugs then perhaps they would stop being gay.

Theres no point in gay love, your just going to be shaging men until you turn into an old fart and die(or you can die young with AIDS) and ultimately you would have nothing to show for it(no kids)
This is stupid. It's not everyone's role in life to procreate.

To be clear - what is your attitude to homosexuals?

My attitude is its a good thing. Spread the love. The more individuals that are happy, the better the society. My NationStates flag is Pintsize the robot in a gimp suit, with the caption "Support Alternative Robot Lifestyles". I think that says enough.

Homsexuality isn't a choice; you're born homosexual or straight or whatever.
Are you saying that the first clause in that sentence implies the second? 'Cause while I agree that you can't choose your sexuality, I haven't seen evidence that it's determined before you're born (as opposed to some complex dependency on environmental factors in early life).

This is the funniest thing I've heard all day. It's just stupid on so many levels.

Indeed. We seem to be getting an influx of trolls at the moment - several of which are older members coming back. I think this is a sign of an impending apocalypse. Either that, or the usual summer N00b Rush.

Are you saying that the first clause in that sentence implies the second? 'Cause while I agree that you can't choose your sexuality, I haven't seen evidence that it's determined before you're born (as opposed to some complex dependency on environmental factors in early life).

I thought you were born gay/straight or whatever? Or is it actually environmental factors?


(Not trolling, actually unsure)

Indeed. We seem to be getting an influx of trolls at the moment - several of which are older members coming back. I think this is a sign of an impending apocalypse. Either that, or the usual summer N00b Rush.

Hm. I'm listening to Rush right now.

Well, I'm always listening to Rush...

Wow. A relationship of two men is primarily about sex. GASP! :eek:

AAHH!! Watch out for the homosexuals, they're ruining our society!! :eek:

I thought you were born gay/straight or whatever? Or is it actually environmental factors?
I remember reading a NewScientist article about a theory that male homosexuality is caused by a gene or genes, which when possessed by a female causes increased fertility.

Perhaps a large proportion of gay men, not unlike many heterosexual men, are naturally predisposed to being promiscuous. Unlike heterosexual men, however, gay men are possibly not restricted by the expectation of society that they must pair off to form a mating couple.

it's a standard debate along the lines of nature vs nurture, it hasn't been proven one way or the other

What about lesbians? Is it something with their genes too?

I remember reading a NewScientist article about a theory that male homosexuality is caused by a gene or genes, which when possessed by a female causes increased fertility.

Ahhh. You see, this is where I always get a tad confused. I know you can't choose your sexuality, but I wasn't sure if it wsas genetic, or environmental, or some combination or both.

I thought you were born gay/straight or whatever? Or is it actually environmental factors?


(Not trolling, actually unsure)
I haven't seen evidence in either direction. I'm not sure what would actually count as evidence here, as unlike with transexuality (which tends to start to show at around age 2), homosexuality doesn't show until several years later (I've heard at around 9, though don't quote me on that figure), so determining the significance of pre-birth and after-birth influences would be almost impossible.

My instinct, based on the development of my own sexuality (which I presume to be the same rough process as most), is that its a Freud-style thing. We have a sexual drive. It is then shaped and directed towards different things, and develops. Sometimes its straight conservative missionary-only. Sometimes its filthy chicken sex. We judge only on the basis of what it does to those involved, not what it does to some housewife in Idaho who thinks its disgusting. So child sex and rape can be judged as bad - it has truly horrific effects on those who suffer it.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/tv/troublewith_gaymen.shtml



As a gay man, I wholeheartedly agree that "gay culture" is entirely too "sex-orientated." I don't consider myself a prude. I've indulged in it myself in the past (and still do, to some extent), but finding a 'partner' is difficult on a scene where most people want no form of attachment. Whereas I crave commitment and loyalty, a lot of the gay men I know want nothing of the sort - and it often depresses me. Sometimes I feel love is dead in the gay scene, even though it's entirely possible. I myself have fell in love with someone only to be told by them that they simply do not want love. The stereotype that gay men are more promiscuous than their straight counterparts may not be entirely true, but since there are less gay men than straight men, it appears that gay men are more promiscuous.

Sex is good. Love is better. Your thoughts?

I agree. You're lucky you live in Scotland. I live in the "most isolated city in the world" so there's less variety in the gay culture here meaning fewer guys who are interested in long-term relationships.

Wow. A relationship of two men is primarily about sex. GASP! :eek:

LG actually makes a good point here.

Half the reason young straight men stay in "relationships" for any length of time is because young women want them and it's the only way the straight man is likely to get sex out of the female. Given the choice, a lot of young men wouldn't bother if they thought they could have a reliable source for sex without the added trouble of keeping the young woman happy in a "steady" relationship.

If you have two young men who, like most young men, are basically just interested in some no-strings sex and neither particularly desires a long-term relationship... Well, what do you think is going to happen?

As a gay man, I wholeheartedly agree that "gay culture" is entirely too "sex-orientated."

If you and your peers define yourselves and your culture by sexual preference then things will be sex oriented.

By the same token if you and your peers defined yourselves by skin color then things would be race oriented.

If what you want is a long term loving relationship then search for that instead of worrying about whether gay men at large are too priomiscuous.You are just you if you choose to be. You dont really have to identify with gay men at large nor be tarred by the same brush unless you allow it.


I am in fact a heterosexual male. But outside of this thread I dont really ever define myself that way or align my thoughts a certain way because Im a member of that classification. Im not open to or interested in having sex with other men but that issue doesnt really come up in my life. Why would it?
I never concern myself about what straight men as a group are doing either I've got my own life with my own troubles loves and ambitions. I havent got the time resources or inclination to even try.

Simon concludes that gay men have a new world at their fingertips. But to embrace it they will have to grow out of their teenage years of sex and drugs, and embrace a more settled future of fidelity and responsibility

Why are they trying to make gay men like straight men all of a sudden? I don't have to care about the heteronormative notions of "fidelity" and "responsibility" - I am not a heterosexual! Gay men are not heterosexuals. Stop demanding we be. Those of us who want "monogamy and a white picket fence and boring sex and marriage" can have it. I don't want it. I can be responsible and still fuck around like a rabbit.

Jealousy is what this strikes me as. "Come now, gay men, you're having too much fun! You have to start acting like women force straight men to act!"

Nuts to that!

To be homosexual is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was homosexual humanity wouldnt exist for much longer.

And if you do live a self destructive type of lifestyle then your either doing too many drugs or there is something abnormal about the way you think.

Well not all gays are like that, sometimes one partner wants to have a long term relationship, but the other partner, does not and I think that happens alot in the gay world as well.

To be homosexual is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was homosexual humanity wouldnt exist for much longer.

And if you do live a self destructive type of lifestyle then your either doing too many drugs or there is something abnormal about the way you think.

*Sighs*


Homosexuality is not wrong, nor self-destructive. They're just relationships where no babies are made, and its not like there are a majority of them. Plus, you know, we could do with having afew less people on the planet.

And what the hell is with the 'Gays do drugs/are made by drugs' thing? What evidence do you have for such a stupid fucking idea?

Trasse II :rolleyes: your a sick homophobe that should not be allowed to post here, people like you are what makes me sick of this world.

*Sighs*


Homosexuality is not wrong, nor self-destructive. They're just relationships where no babies are made, and its not like there are a majority of them. Plus, you know, we could do with having afew less people on the planet.

And what the hell is with the 'Gays do drugs/are made by drugs' thing? What evidence do you have for such a stupid fucking idea?


The OP confesses it himself

Trasse II :rolleyes: your a sick homophobe that should not be allowed to post here, people like you are what makes me sick of this world.


Then please feel free to end your life.




I wont miss you.

To be homosexual is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was homosexual humanity wouldnt exist for much longer.

You say that like it's a bad thing. My "self-destructive" lifestyle is loads of fun, and bringing about the fall of civilisation and humanity is just a wonderful little boon it has on the side. As I said, you're just jealous.

The OP confesses it himself

Designer drugs, you Numbnut. Gay men aren't the only ones on designer drugs. Hell, a large number of white, black, latino, upper-class, middle-class, lower-class people are no drugs. They aren't any different.

Umm? when did I say I wanted to end my life, go die you neo-nazi scum. Really i can't belive there still people like you around.

You say that like it's a bad thing. My "self-destructive" lifestyle is loads of fun, and bringing about the fall of civilisation and humanity is just a wonderful little boon it has on the side. As I said, you're just jealous.


So you admit your gay!

That explains everything about you.

Well, gay couples can't get pregnant so maybe that's why there's so much sex.

That's also why men want to have sex a lot.

So you admit your gay!

That explains everything about you.

Fass is gay?


No shit

So you admit your gay!

Everybody knows I'm gay. It's nothing I have to admit. It's something I'm very glad I am.

That explains everything about you.

Thank you. That's a very nice thing to say. :)

Umm? when did I say I wanted to end my life, go die you neo-nazi scum. Really i can't belive there still people like you around.

Great reply.


Are you still in junior high school?

Great reply.


Are you still in junior high school?

Given the quality of your debating old chum, it's about at your level. Seriously, do you believe the stuff you're actually ranting about?

Great reply.


Are you still in junior high school?

No I'm a adult in my late 20's, but besides that heres your answer short and sweet. :upyours:

So you admit your gay!

That explains everything about you.
I was wrong! This is the funniest thing I've heard today!

No I'm a adult in my late 20's, but besides that heres your answer short and sweet. :upyours:

You're just falling to his own level. Don't let him win.

To be homosexual is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was homosexual humanity wouldnt exist for much longer.

And if you do live a self destructive type of lifestyle then your either doing too many drugs or there is something abnormal about the way you think.

OMG!! Where did you grow up! Strasse. Isn't that german for street? If you're german then, I am appalled. I am apalled either way. I am a Science student at University, and I have studied Genetics, Psychology and Sociology among other subjects.

Your Sexual Orientation is not a choice. There are genes (a combination of genes, resulting in varying degrees of sexuality - there is no black and white (gay or straight), rather a spectrum of greys, which we then simplify into categories as society demands it.). You are born with a genetic predisposition (a certain colour of grey) and with the influence of some environmental factors, your categorised sexual orientation is fixed in early life.

It is indeed very plausible that one such environmental factor is overpopulation. But Homosexuality IS completely natural and normal and occurs in many different species and has done for probably millions of years.

Unlike certain beliefs that have developed only recently (a couple of thousand years).

Homosexuality has been around longer than ANY teachings that it is "wrong".

I really don't care, like what he says is gona stop stop all the gay men to live their lifes how they choose, he can rant all he wants about, gay men being spawns of satan. That just shows how insecure he is about himself, since people that are secure about their sexuality would really not go on preaching about the evils of homosexuality.

To be homosexual is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was homosexual humanity wouldnt exist for much longer.

That's like saying that teaching is wrong because if everyone did nothing but teach, there would be no one to farm, bake, etc. The fact is that not everyone is homosexual, so the supposed dangers of humanity self-destructing from everyone being gay is quite remote.

To be homosexual is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was homosexual humanity wouldnt exist for much longer.

The only thing that is destructive, is views like this. It is views like this, views that outcast homosexuals that leads to their suicide.

FACT: Gay youth are 10 times more likely to commit suicide than other youth.

On another slant...

FACT: The Absolute greatest majority of child sex offenders identify as heterosexual.

Being gay is not destructive. Being the cause of suicide is Destructive. Look at yourself Strasse, you are as low as a Murderer!

The foundation of our entire culture lies in a culture that accepted and promoted homosexuality, and saw nothing unusual about that, the Ancient Greeks.

Also, I think it would be great if we didn't have to think AT ALL about having kids. Every man gets the snip, but has a sperm sample stored on ice. Kids would be ENTIRELY chosen. So - no unwanted children. No resented children (well, less). No non-medical abortions (I'm pro-choice, but I still dislike the idea of abortion, just think those who it affects more directly need to have the choice). Genetic diseases like Huntingtons, haemophealia (sp?) and Down Syndrome could be eradicated. Or go another step, and use artifical wombs! Total tangent there, but anyway...

The only thing that is destructive, is views like this. It is views like this, views that outcast homosexuals that leads to their suicide.

FACT: Gay youth are 10 times more likely to commit suicide than other youth.

On another slant...

FACT: The Absolute greatest majority of child sex offenders identify as heterosexual.

Being gay is not destructive. Being the cause of suicide is Destructive. Look at yourself Strasse, you are as low as a Murderer!

Hey, I've got a premonition! I can see Strasse II saying that Gays are filled with shame at their sinfullness, and all Gays are child abusers... go on Strasse, prove me wrong. Ah go on.

This debate has only just begun. I'm only just warming up!

Leave it to the power of intellect, not emotion or heated opinion.

BRING IT!!!

To be homosexual is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was homosexual humanity wouldnt exist for much longer.

Ladies, Gentlemen, and Amoeba, I think Strasse II was pointing to the rather low birthrates among the homosexual community, and that homosexual relationships tend not to involve much procreation.

Were everyone homosexual, he is simply saying they would soon die off for lack of reproduction.

That said, I don't care if one has views for or against a particular sexual orientation, provided he keeps his hands to himself, and confines himself to making statements.

OMG!! Where did you grow up! Strasse. Isn't that german for street? If you're german then, I am appalled. I am apalled either way. I am a Science student at University, and I have studied Genetics, Psychology and Sociology among other subjects.

Your Sexual Orientation is not a choice. There are genes (a combination of genes, resulting in varying degrees of sexuality - there is no black and white (gay or straight), rather a spectrum of greys, which we then simplify into categories as society demands it.). You are born with a genetic predisposition (a certain colour of grey) and with the influence of some environmental factors, your categorised sexual orientation is fixed in early life.

I haven't heard this yet - do you have any scientifc articles on discovery of these genes? Though I happen to agree that you really don't choose to be a gay, I haven't seen any concrete evidence that totally confirms it's genetic (by totally, I mean by the standards we compare other genes we've decoded).

I repeat, ARTIFICIAL WOMBS!!!! They'd rock! No labour pains! Think about! Thats good for everyone. And the scientologists would love it. No noise, yeah? Ok, so thats not inherently a plus point... but so what?

Pintsize, that enourmous amounts of bile have been directed at the one poster who dissented from the politically correct pro-homosexual line is bad enough, bringing Tom Cruise and His Merry Band Of Utter Lunatics into this is just not cricket.

" Simon feels gay culture still worships the pursuit of sex, defies fidelity and treats sexual extremes as the norm."

Just like all of Western culture then?

But they do it in a flamboyant, gerbil way.

I'm in a mischievious mood. So sue me. I was also following on from his previous comments, and comparing them to other comments I've heard. I did ask him to disprove me.

I don't object to mischief, but its the idea of being reminded of Tom Cruise.

Top Gun should be edited so Maverick dies in the crash :p

I haven't heard this yet - do you have any scientifc articles on discovery of these genes? Though I happen to agree that you really don't choose to be a gay, I haven't seen any concrete evidence that totally confirms it's genetic (by totally, I mean by the standards we compare other genes we've decoded).

I cannot quote the articles from which my statements are sourced off of the top of my head, but I did remember reading about the theory of "10 varying degrees of sexuality". There is not any concrete proof that these statements are absolute fact, but there is a lot of scientific evidence to support such theories. In any event, the current most accepted theory is that sexual orientation is probably genetic and is also influenced by environmental factors early in life.

Not much in the world really is concrete anyway, all "facts" are essentially the theory with the most evidence supporting it.

"To be homosexual is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was homosexual humanity wouldnt exist for much longer."

To be male is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was male humanity wouldnt exist for much longer.

Another note:

I do remember reading that, based on genetic research, some genes (whilst not completely understood) have been linked to determining sexual orientation. Also remembering that not all genes possessed by one person (their genome) are expressed, "gay genes" have been determined to exist through heredity. I also remember reading that one such possible "gay gene" is passed from mother to son, and is linked to express homosexuality in the son after having expressed something else in the mother.

Again, this is what I remember from a course I took lastyear... so I cannot quote the sources. Nor is the genetics of sexual orientation my focus of my degree.

"To be homosexual is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was homosexual humanity wouldnt exist for much longer."

To be male is to live a lifestyle which is self-destructive to humanity. If everyone was male humanity wouldnt exist for much longer.

I need a clapping smiley...

Then please feel free to end your life.
I wont miss you.

For this comment, Strasse II, you receive a 3 Day Forum Ban. Advocating the death of other posters is strictly not allowed.

As to the rest of the comments, I encourage the other posters that disagree to express their disagreement in a matter that systematically dismantles the argument. Not to call someone names.

Erastide
~Forum Moderator

For this comment, Strasse II, you receive a 3 Day Forum Ban. Advocating the death of other posters is strictly not allowed.

As to the rest of the comments, I encourage the other posters that disagree to express their disagreement in a matter that systematically dismantles the argument. Not to call someone names.

Erastide
~Forum Moderator

Claps his hands* Bravo!

Why are they trying to make gay men like straight men all of a sudden? I don't have to care about the heteronormative notions of "fidelity" and "responsibility" - I am not a heterosexual! Gay men are not heterosexuals. Stop demanding we be. Those of us who want "monogamy and a white picket fence and boring sex and marriage" can have it. I don't want it. I can be responsible and still fuck around like a rabbit.

Jealousy is what this strikes me as. "Come now, gay men, you're having too much fun! You have to start acting like women force straight men to act!"

Nuts to that!

Testify, brother Fass! Amen!

Pintsize, that enourmous amounts of bile have been directed at the one poster who dissented from the politically correct pro-homosexual line is bad enough, bringing Tom Cruise and His Merry Band Of Utter Lunatics into this is just not cricket.

"the politically correct pro-homosexual line" - Would I take this to mean you disaprove of actually being for homosexuality and not believing it to be some abberation of nature, as some would have us believe?

In Disrealiland's defence, he could mean that people so rarely go outside political correctness, and when its done, we should applaud them for some non-conformist thought. And I agree. So, I applaud Strasse II for his guts. But I applaud Fass and Revasser more. Their statements are non-PC, but don't even have decades of thought to back them up. It is not only outside the majority thought, but original (relative to most things anyway. Original thought rarely happens).

In Disrealiland's defence, he could mean that people so rarely go outside political correctness, and when its done, we should applaud them for some non-conformist thought. And I agree. So, I applaud Strasse II for his guts. But I applaud Fass and Revasser more. Their statements are non-PC, but don't even have decades of thought to back them up. It is not only outside the majority thought, but original (relative to most things anyway. Original thought rarely happens).

Wait, what? So, it's Political Correctness to actually be pro-homosexuality and be tolerant of others? Hell, I thought it was called plain common sense and being a nice person, not some bloody made-up phrase. Applaud Strasse II for his guts? The man is a damn racist and homophobe - and you want to applaud him for being that?

Hell, if actually being tolerant and not believing homosexuals are evil, sinful and created by drugs means I'm labelled as 'PC' then all the better - I'd rather be PC than a damned hohophobe and racist.

I disagree with his ideas as well. Doesn't mean I don't think his bravery to say is impressive. Though I wonder would he say it in the middle of a gay bar... I wish he hadn't been banned. Its less fun without his ranting... And its harder to convince someone by dialogue if they can't respond...

Also, being pro-gay isn't PC. Being tolerant to a point is... PC hasn't the balls to go any further. It's the attitude of "Thats ok, but not near me".

Umm? when did I say I wanted to end my life, go die you neo-nazi scum. Really i can't belive there still people like you around.


Hmmm, Solaris-X just advocated the death of Strasse as well but he did not get banned.

I sense hypocrasy. If one does not go along with the rest of the sheep then he/she is clipped.

yay for more buttsex.

I only said that in defense, and he did said I should end my life first. Plus seriously that guy IS a homophobe and somewhat disturbed oviously and deserves getting banned and if I get banned for defending myself, then so beat it.

As a gay man, I wholeheartedly agree that "gay culture" is entirely too "sex-orientated." I don't consider myself a prude. I've indulged in it myself in the past (and still do, to some extent), but finding a 'partner' is difficult on a scene where most people want no form of attachment. Whereas I crave commitment and loyalty, a lot of the gay men I know want nothing of the sort - and it often depresses me. Sometimes I feel love is dead in the gay scene, even though it's entirely possible. I myself have fell in love with someone only to be told by them that they simply do not want love. The stereotype that gay men are more promiscuous than their straight counterparts may not be entirely true, but since there are less gay men than straight men, it appears that gay men are more promiscuous.

Sex is good. Love is better. Your thoughts?I know exactly what you mean, though I'm sure it's better now than it was 20 or even 10 years ago.

Why are they trying to make gay men like straight men all of a sudden? I don't have to care about the heteronormative notions of "fidelity" and "responsibility" - I am not a heterosexual! Gay men are not heterosexuals. Stop demanding we be. Those of us who want "monogamy and a white picket fence and boring sex and marriage" can have it. I don't want it. I can be responsible and still fuck around like a rabbit.What's even more appalling about your propagating the myth that fidelity and responsibility are heteronormative is that you're smart enough to know that it's a myth.

Just to clarify: I don't object to casual sex, I'd be a hypocrite if I did. But I do lament that it seems like a lot of gay men confuse lust with love, and for someone who's already in a smaller subculture than heterosexuals that kinda sucks.

What's even more appalling about your propagating the myth that fidelity and responsibility are heteronormative is that you're smart enough to know that it's a myth.

Did you even read the OP? "Gay men are all about sex. Boohoo, boohoo. They need to start acting like straight people, because the only way to be a good person is by accepting heterosexual notions of 'responsibility' and 'fidelity!'" Responsibility and fidelity are not heteronormative inventions, but the version of them that the OP is pushing are.

Well, fuck that shit. I fuck men. And men like to fuck. I don't care what some prude wannabe heterosexual thinks about "love" and "commitment" and countless other things straight people feed their offspring with to make them docile and want to get married. I am not a worse person for not buying the heterosexual version of how things should be (two people who fall in love, and live happily ever after in holy matrimony) - I don't need, nor want, heterosexual notions of what "fidelity" and "responsibility" and "relationship" and "good" are. I have homosexual notions of what those things are, and I'll be damned if I'll let someone try to make me buy into the propaganda of "man + woman + marriage = happiness" transposed onto gay men.

Did you even read the OP? "Gay men are all about sex. Boohoo, boohoo. They need to start acting like straight people, because the only way to be a good person is by accepting heterosexual notions of 'responsibility' and 'fidelity!'" Responsibility and fidelity are not heteronormative inventions, but the version of them that the OP is pushing are.

Well, fuck that shit. I fuck men. And men like to fuck. I don't care what some prude wannabe heterosexual thinks about "love" and "commitment" and countless other things straight people feed their offspring with to make them docile and want to get married. I am not a worse person for not buying the heterosexual version of how things should be (two people who fall in love, and live happily ever after in holy matrimony) - I don't need, nor want, heterosexual notions of what "fidelity" and "responsibility" and "relationship" and "good" are. I have homosexual notions of what those things are, and I'll be damned if I'll let someone try to make me buy into the propaganda of "man + woman + marriage = happiness" transposed onto gay men.

I'm slightly annoyed that you seem to be calling me a "heterosexual wannabe." I have no desires to be heterosexual, or married or have children. I'm also annoyed that you seem to think I think of you as a "worse person" for your tendancies. This is utter rubbish.

You're biased against the concept of love because you consider it a heterosexual construct designed to make breeders procreate? On one level, this is probably true. But you're entirely missing the emotional attachment that's involved here. This is exactly the attitude that depresses me. People like you, Fass, have nothing but disdain for emotional attachment. This seems to be the view held by a great deal of gay men. As someone who prefers emotional attachments over sex, this attitude really grates me.

Hey Fass, I think you're attacking the wrong people. Its conservative people who want you to be with only one person or not to be gay at all or whatever. Me, I say sure, whatever. Right now I'm with one person. Next year, maybe not. Its my business. Just as its yours what you do. But its not heterosexuals who want to control your sex life.

I'm slightly annoyed that you seem to be calling me a "heterosexual wannabe." I have no desires to be heterosexual, or married or have children. I'm also annoyed that you seem to think I think of you as a "worse person" for your tendancies. This is utter rubbish.

You're biased against the concept of love because you consider it a heterosexual construct designed to make breeders procreate? On one level, this is probably true. But you're entirely missing the emotional attachment that's involved here. This is exactly the attitude that depresses me. People like you, Fass, have nothing but disdain for emotional attachment. This seems to be the view held by a great deal of gay men. As someone who prefers emotional attachments over sex, this attitude really grates me.Well said. I don't know how many gay men don't enter monogamous relationships because they don't want to, or if they don't enter monogamous relationships because they beleive they're not supposed to. Not wanting to be in a monogamous relationship is fine; telling gay men they're not supposed to want monogamous relationships is appalling.

I'm slightly annoyed that you seem to be calling me a "heterosexual wannabe." I have no desires to be heterosexual, or married or have children. I'm also annoyed that you seem to think I think of you as a "worse person" for your tendancies. This is utter rubbish.

You're biased against the concept of love because you consider it a heterosexual construct designed to make breeders procreate? On one level, this is probably true. But you're entirely missing the emotional attachment that's involved here. This is exactly the attitude that depresses me. People like you, Fass, have nothing but disdain for emotional attachment. This seems to be the view held by a great deal of gay men. As someone who prefers emotional attachments over sex, this attitude really grates me.

I have nothing but disdain for those people who seem to think there is something that precludes "sex" and "emotion." That, for some reason, "sex" is not emotional and that sex is worth less. That "emotional attachment" cannot occur because of sex. That I cannot "love" someone just because I don't buy into straight versions of monogamy. That I should want monogamy, because it's bad to not want it.

You're insulted that I call you "wannabe heterosexual?" Well, I'm insulted that you insinuate that there is something worth less about the person I fuck, and that the only way to love someone is to fuck only them. That I am "emotionally distant" because I don't buy some sort of fairytale version that "love = monogamy," that there is something wrong with me because I am a man. Because this is basically what this comes down to: pussy-whipping gay men, using a heterosexual mould of what the "right" way to lead romantic and sex lives is.

I have nothing but disdain for those people who seem to think there is something that precludes "sex" and "emotion." That, for some reason, "sex" is not emotional and that sex is worth less. That "emotional attachment" cannot occur because of sex. That I cannot "love" someone just because I don't buy into straight versions of monogamy. That I should want monogamy, because it's bad to not want it.

You're insulted that I call you "wannabe heterosexual?" Well, I'm insulted that you insinuate that there is something worth less about the person I fuck, and that the only way to love someone is to fuck only them. That I am "emotionally distant" because I don't buy some sort of fairytale version that "love = monogamy," that there is something wrong with me because I am a man. Because this is basically what this comes down to: pussy-whipping gay men, using a heterosexual mould of what the "right" way to lead romantic and sex lives is.
I said, "sex is good. Love is better." I can have sex, enjoy it immensely, but if I'm having sex with someone I'm attached to rather than someone I met at a bar five minutes ago, I'm going to enjoy it on a more intimate level.

I see that debating this with you is pointless. We will never see eye to eye.

I said, "sex is good. Love is better." I can have sex, enjoy it immensely, but if I'm having sex with someone I'm attached to rather than someone I met at a bar five minutes ago, I'm going to enjoy it on a more intimate level.

I see that debating this with you is pointless. We will never see eye to eye.
Don't worry; Fass would never allow himself to even think of liking the idea of anything remotely connected to 'heteronormativity'.

I think at least this arguement has reached the point where its a relatively minor one over which way do you prefer, rather than "I have a right to exist" versus "fags are sinners and should burn".

I find that encouraging.

I said, "sex is good. Love is better." I can have sex, enjoy it immensely, but if I'm having sex with someone I'm attached to rather than someone I met at a bar five minutes ago, I'm going to enjoy it on a more intimate level.

What you do in your OP is call those who do not share your penchant for quaint heteromimicry "irresponsible" and "adulterous" and "immature."

I see that debating this with you is pointless. We will never see eye to eye.

I believe we will not. I'm perfectly happy to not give a crap that you want something you were spoon-fed to want, but you're perfectly happy to pretend to be holier than me. It is so reminiscent of people who go "omg, gay people don't behave like straight people! And that's wrong!"

Maybe the fear that I've encountered in many gay men (example; use of genderless pronouns about boyfriends, "they" instead of "he") affects it. I mean, a one night stand puts you at less risk of being spotted by a gay basher than a relationship.
I agree ...

Not only that but as negitive a reaction as gay sex gets by strait males, things like holding hands and kissing seem to get an even worse reaction

A one night stand in someones bedroom does not get you the hundreds of disgusted looks or hatefull reactions as you get from things you do in a normal relationship

"the politically correct pro-homosexual line" - Would I take this to mean you disaprove of actually being for homosexuality and not believing it to be some abberation of nature, as some would have us believe?

If you want to reply to my posts, read them. Until Strasse got into the threats (which I regard as non-serious), he was merrly guilty of expressing a dissenting opinion. For expressing that opinion, he was subjected to a tsunami of abuse from people who talk about "tolerance".

Before you talk about tolerance, tolerate opinions with which you disagree. Tolerate opinions you utterly detest. Then you can blither about tolerance with some credibility.

So, it's Political Correctness to actually be pro-homosexuality and be tolerant of others?

No, its PC to preach the homosexual lifestyle as entirely normal.

Whether it is or not is irrelevant, what is relevant, and what I was pointing to is the tendency of people who speak in terms of tolerance to tar and feather, and condemn anyone who differs from that line.

Might I suggest that if one were to talk about tolerance, one ought to practice it with regard to those who dissent?

The man is a damn racist and homophobe - and you want to applaud him for being that?

He is expressing his opinion. Where did I say I applauded his opinion? Nowhere. I made no endorsement of his opinion anywhere. You read that into it because like most people who speak of tolerance for carefully selected groups, you don't practice tolerance to anyone who differs.

****************

For the record, I've no opinion on the homosexual lifestyle, or homosexuality. What consenting adults do with, to, or on each other is none of my business, and its none of your business unless you happen to be the consenting adult in question. This "live and let live" concept is real tolerance.

My opinion on those who dissent against the pro-homosexual line is that while they confine themselves to mere expression, they should be left to speak, they have that right. If they move into violence, I advocate the right to take whatever self-defence measures the victim/s consider necessary, and punishment through the legal system.

My opinion on those who will verbally tar and feather a person for speaking inappropriate opinions, and ask that they be shunned and suppresses is quite unprintable. It is sufficient to say that I do not consider such people fit to live with others.

None of this is at all relevant to what I was talking about, I was merely pointing to the tendency of people who talk about tolerance to practice intolerance to anyone who dissents.

As a gay man, I wholeheartedly agree that "gay culture" is entirely too "sex-orientated." Sex is good. Love is better.

Are you saying YOU are gay????

Are you saying YOU are gay????

I think "As a gay man", emphasis on the "Gay" and "Man" might be your answer old chum.

I think "As a gay man", emphasis on the "Gay" and "Man" might be your answer OLD CHUM..


OMGLOL YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TU SAY I AM AN OLD CHUMLOLOMFGOMG!!!!!!!!!!

On Topic: I really don't know what you mean, Skinny87.

OMGLOL YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TU SAY I AM AN OLD CHUMLOLOMFGOMG!!!!!!!!!!

On Topic: I really don't know what you mean, Skinny87.

Meh, I've been up about 18 hours. I'm rather tired. Still, like your moxie kid.

Meh, I've been up about 18 hours. I'm rather tired. Still, like your MOXIE kid.


I STILL don't know what you mean. Anyway, my mom's been up longer than you. I 'm not being mean, I just wanted to tell you.

I STILL don't know what you mean. Anyway, my mom's been up longer than you. I 'm not being mean, I just wanted to tell you.

I'm guessing you're messing, but I'm about to go to bed, so whatever.

He was saying he was gay. The statement "As a gay man" would seem to suggest quite strongly that he is gay. Therefore, he is a gay man.

I'm guessing you're messing, but I'm about to go to bed, so whatever.

He was saying he was gay. The statement "As a gay man" would seem to suggest quite strongly that he is gay. Therefore, he is a gay man.



*faints*

(NO, I AM NOT SPAMMING.)

Being a gay man I have had the opportunity to hear arguments regarding how gay men should behave. I am not sure either side is exactly right. How a person perceives their role is purely individual. Fass believes that putting heterosexual values on a homosexual relationship is counter intuitive.

Mindset sees nothing wrong with a long-term, committed relationship similar to what heterosexuals do.

Neither of these viewpoints are wrong.

I prefer to be with the same man exclusively for the period of my relationship with him. I do not go out to find a different man to fuck while in a committed relationship. I would prefer to have a partner inclined the same way as I in that area. This is MY CHOICE.

This does not mean that a one night stand is out of the question, they just get rarer and rarer as I get older.

I see nothing wrong with a person having the type of relationship that Fass enjoys and as long as the promiscuity is not suicidally idiotic and involves barebacking with multiple partners, I have no gripe. (not that multiple sex partners is a bad thing, the combination of promiscuity, barebacking and multiple partners is monumentally stupid, in my opinion)

If I were looking for a man, I would strongly tend to look for guys like Mindset, also my choice.

Do not mistake my one partner at a time preference for heteronormality, or a suppressed urge to act like a straight couple.

My big complaint in the gay community has always been the rampant ageism in it. I am guilty of it to a small degree, I prefer a younger partner, but you won't catch me at age 35 running about with an 18 year old. I just wouldn't have enough in common with them for more than a one night stand. There would be nothing for us to talk about, really.

So I look at the argument as two sides of the same coin.

But you're entirely missing the emotional attachment that's involved here. This is exactly the attitude that depresses me. People like you, Fass, have nothing but disdain for emotional attachment. This seems to be the view held by a great deal of gay men. As someone who prefers emotional attachments over sex, this attitude really grates me.

Well, Mindset, there are a good many of us gay guys who prefer long term relationships and monogamy. We're just harder to find. We generally don't go to the bars or baths. We don't hang out at gay resorts like Fire Island. We just quietly go about our lives outside of the superficiality of "the scene." The bars are designed for drinking, drugs, sex, and hedonism in general (exactly the same as the straight bars), so that's pretty much all you (and the researchers) are likely to find there. But there is so much more to gay life than the bars.

Also, a lot of people (gay and straight) say they are looking for a relationship, but they set the bar way too high. They insist on perfection. But that's just not going to happen (except maybe for a one night stand). So if you haven't done so already, open yourself up to dating guys outside of your age group, income bracket, physical type, etc. That will greatly increase you odds of finding "Mr Right." "Mr Right" and "Mr Perfect" are totally different guys. ;)

Glad to know I'm not alone. :)

Also, a lot of people (gay and straight) say they are looking for a relationship, but they set the bar way too high. They insist on perfection. But that's just not going to happen (except maybe for a one night stand). So if you haven't done so already, open yourself up to dating guys outside of your age group, income bracket, physical type, etc. That will greatly increase you odds of finding "Mr Right." "Mr Right" and "Mr Perfect" are totally different guys. ;)


*sighs* I learned that the hard way, really... But I think I've finally found Mr. Right and Mr. Perfect. At least he's perfect to me.

... Because this is basically what this comes down to: pussy-whipping gay men, using a heterosexual mould of what the "right" way to lead romantic and sex lives is.Oh, so it's all the women's fault that men are monogamous at all. The emotional needs of men and women are more or less identical, so exuse me if I don't buy this. The suggestion that there's a fundamentally different base in gay and straight relasionships is just silly - we're all people that are very similar.

So I have no idea why you've taken to believing that monogamy is a heterosexual 'construct'. Plenty of heterosexuals have non-monogamous relationships, and I don't see anyone calling them homo-wannabees. Gay men being promiscuous probably has more to do with (like someone pointed out)the fact that generally men like alot of sex alot. I don't see why commited relationships like The Mindset is talking about are considered 'heteronormative' - obviously all types of people are capable of, and desire commitment, though just as obviously, not everyone does. But why categorize commitment and monogamy as heterosexual and promiscuity/multiple partners/open relationships/whatever as the liberated homosexual perogative?! That just does not make sense to me.

I think a whore is a whore, regardless of sexual orientation or gender.
Just becuase a person is gay, doesnt mean they have to be totally preoccupied with sex.
Ive only seen a few that were, and theyre probably the worst of the bunch.

I think more men should cross the line and be gay. I would do anything I could to promote the gay lifestyle. Altruism?! Nope, the more gay men there are the more available women out there needing some manimation. Which means more sex for me. So keep being gay guys...I will take care of your sisters and your mothers....God Bless You

I think more men should cross the line and be gay. I would do anything I could to promote the gay lifestyle. Altruism?! Nope, the more gay men there are the more available women out there needing some manimation. Which means more sex for me. So keep being gay guys...I will take care of your sisters and your mothers....God Bless YouYou assumed these guys would be taking care of their sisters and mothers if they weren't gay? You sick pervert. :p

You assumed these guys would be taking care of their sisters and mothers if they weren't gay? You sick pervert. :p

not their own each others.

A question for Fass.

When you are talking about your relationships and love do you mean that you love one person deeply/have a strong emotional attachement to one person and you both sleep with other people as well? If that is the case then it's basically swinging and I would still class that as a (non-traditional) monogamous relationship as both partners agree to it whilst staying a couple.

If on the other hand you mean that you don't have a strong emotional bond with one person but just have sex with lots of people or do so with all of them it obviously wouldn't be, however. I don't quite understan the latter option but you don't explicitly say that you are in love with one person and sleep with others so it is an interpretation that can be drawn from what you are saying. A small amount of clarification might be useful in resolving your arguement with The Mindset.

I think that the image of gay people aving no emotional attachement to anyone and just having sex with lots of people is the view that is given out by 'gay culture' as correct or incorrect as that may be. I think this is also the behaviour that the article in the OP is calling immature. I would agree with that to some extent because an emotional relationship rather than a purely sexual one involves more caring and therefore more maturity. Obviously you may disagree with that.

It is not possible to see an emotional attachement in a pile of writhing bodies so many people probably don't think tht it exists at all rather than having a sexualy free but emotionaly strong relationship. Obviously it depends on the partner's wishes and I don't see any moral difference between the two or any difference between homo/heterosexual relationships in this matter as long as there is an agreement with the emotional partner that this is how sex in the relationship will happen.

Sorry for the long post and spelling/grammar errors but I'm shit at being concise or ordering a point of view.

There's a difference between sex and relationships, though. Sex is empty.
If the sex you've been having is empty, then you're doing it wrong.

Because this is basically what this comes down to: pussy-whipping gay men, using a heterosexual mould of what the "right" way to lead romantic and sex lives is.
It saddens me when gay men express this kind of mysogeny. Of all people, you should be able to understand how pathetic it is to cling to this kind of gender-typing bullshit. You also should be well aware that the heteronormative system has absolutely NOTHING to do with women gaining power over men...quite the opposite, in fact.

I think more men should cross the line and be gay. I would do anything I could to promote the gay lifestyle. Altruism?! Nope, the more gay men there are the more available women out there needing some manimation. Which means more sex for me. So keep being gay guys...I will take care of your sisters and your mothers....God Bless You
Yes, because I'm sure the ladies will be just beating down your door...chicks dig guys who use words like "manimation."

Yes, because I'm sure the ladies will be just beating down your door...chicks dig guys who use words like "manimation."
Manimation--is that like anime starring Manimal? Because I might actually watch that, if only for the sheer fuckeduppedness of it.

Manimation--is that like anime starring Manimal? Because I might actually watch that, if only for the sheer fuckeduppedness of it.
One can always count on Japanese animators to provide reassurance that there are must stranger things than ourselves in this universe.

One can always count on Japanese animators to provide reassurance that there are must stranger things than ourselves in this universe.
Yep. Like Kirk Cameron.

Yep. Like Kirk Cameron.
I'm not entirely sure he is of this universe.

Studies show that MEN are more likely to be one of the two extremes rather than in the middle. Unlike woman, who are more likely to be in the middle than either extreme.

To map out what I mean, consider the line below:

|-------------------------|-------------------------|
Homosexual------------Bisexual----------------Hetrosexual

Studies show that Men are more likely to be either homosexual or hetrosexual, while Woman are more likely to be bisexual than either.

Studies show that MEN are more likely to be one of the two extremes rather than in the middle. Unlike woman, who are more likely to be in the middle than either extreme.

To map out what I mean, consider the line below:

|-------------------------|-------------------------|
Homosexual------------Bisexual----------------Hetrosexual

Studies show that Men are more likely to be either homosexual or hetrosexual, while Woman are more likely to be bisexual than either.
Cite your sources. And "heterosexual male wet dreams about girl-on-girl action" is not a reputable source.

Cite your sources. And "heterosexual male wet dreams about girl-on-girl action" is not a reputable source.


Im not an immature little boy, And I rezent that comment.

MY source is not from an online article, thouh Im sure with a little research we can find it on the net aswel.

Im not an immature little boy, And I rezent that comment.

I don't believe I called you an immature little boy, unless you assume that all heterosexual males who have wet dreams must be immature little boys. I know of a great number of mature men who experience wet dreams, particularly ones about a pair of hot chicks doing it.


MY source is not from an online article, thouh Im sure with a little research we can find it on the net aswel.
You said "sources." I'm sure at least one of them will be something we all can reference.

You said "sources." I'm sure at least one of them will be something we all can reference.

Indeed. Books, magazine articles, speeches etc. All can be referenced.

I am lookng for an online version right now.

Indeed. Books, magazine articles, speeches etc. All can be referenced.
I must admit, I'm kind of troll-baiting on this one. I happen to have done a lot of reading in this area, and thus I happen to know that there is not one single reputable study that reports bisexual orientation to be innately more common in women than men.

Some work has suggested that women are more likely to REPORT that they identify as bisexual, but men are actually more likely to have had sexual contact with members of both sexes. So what does this mean? Well, it's possible women are more likely to lie about sexual orientation, and are more likely to report being bisexual when they are not. It is possible that women are honest about feeling bisexual, but are not as likely to act on their feelings. It is possible that males are more likely to be bisexual but are less likely to be willing to admit it. It is possible that males and females are equally likely to be bisexual, but differ in how likely they are to 1) pursue same-sex relationships and 2) admit to having pursued same-sex relationships. It is possible that gender roles and sexual stereotypes influence how males and females perceive their own sexuality. And so on, and so forth.

Essentially, there is no answer at this point. But we have no concrete reason to believe that bisexuality occurs more or less frequently in either gender.

http://www.sundayindependent.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=1099&fArticleId=3119323
http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/bisexnews.html
I unfortunatly can not find the exact article I read.

SEX!!!

Being gay is all about sex. The only diffrence between heterosexuals and homosexuals is that one group has sex with members of their own gender.

If you are a gay person where do you meet other gay people?

1. Gay pub/bar/club - Loud music, alcohol, hot and sweaty dancing. If you like someone you start to dance with them after consuming alcohol. At this stage it is so loud that you can barely hear each other, if you wish to be sure of seeing him again you have to leave that place. Where to go? Someone's home, and since you hardly know the guy because; a) You're drunk b) The music is loud c) You have only just met you're bound to be turned on by them, because pretty much the only signals they have been able to use to attract you are visual and vice-versa, therefore with all this sexual stimulation and judgement imparing alcohol you are very likely to have sex just after meeting.

2. Beats - Dark public places where mostly gay men come to meet and have annonomyous sex, often married guys. No alcohol, no music, and even less chance of conversation. Here sex is used even more as an ice breaker than in nightclubs ect. Of course many people feel shamed or guilty about of having sex in public toilets and other such secluded public domains.

3. Personals - When you put a description of yourself in an add most of it tends to be a description of yourself, when we focus on the visual it would seem that it draws others focus. If you meet up with someone because of their physical looks you may only have one thing in common: A sex drive.

4. Saunas - People go there, get naked and have sex in private. As the venue is a sex venue it can be difficult to form some sort of emotional attachment to someone.

5. The Internet - There are many scary people on the internet. The internet is a scary place, yet while chat rooms may indeed be filled with people looking for hook-ups, you may find that it is probably the easiest method for meeting someone like you who is interested in some sort of relationship that goes beyond sex. However one talks on the internet before meeting in person, the less likely you are to connect with the other person as you will come to view them merely as words and a small jpeg.

For young homosexuals that come into this enviroment and accept it as the social norm and what is right because an overly politically correct minority who wishes to offend none decided that attacking gay culture is the same as attacking homosexuals. Furthermore, gay culture has segregated its self from the community. This is because: a) segregation provides security in numbers; b) In an area with more homosexuals it is easier for homosexuals to meet in more normal circumstances.

Furthermore, with young homosexuals who are entering the gay community for the first time they will often be struck with an immeadiate enamour. This adoration (in my experience at least) often leads to their first crushing experience in gay relationships. With little previous experience they will often attempt to become those whom they desire in the hopes that they themselves are more desirable. Given that they mostly tend to find these idols in nightclubs where people are drinking, taking drugs and meeting to find a sexual partner they tend to have a slanted view of their idols in which they hope to transform into. A young homosexual in a nightclub does not see that the drunken, shirtless dancer on a Saturday night may in fact be a waiter for fourty hours of the week.

Now, as for what my point is; well I don't really bother making points.

There are those who will find this insulting, but so what - if you say "I am a heterosexual" or "I am a homosexual", you block out 50% of people you'll meet, no matter how amazing they might be. If you say "I will only be monogamous" or "I will only have casual sex", you block out all sorts of emotional and sexual possibilities. Why on earth would you do that?

If you are a gay person where do you meet other gay people?

1. Gay pub/bar/club
2. Beats
3. Personals
4. Saunas
5. The Internet

Add to that

6. Work. Co-workers, clients, customers, and those who service your place of employment (IT, plumbers, electricians, the Xerox guy, etc.) are a treasure trove of potential mates.

7. Through Friends. They know you best and can fix you up with compatable guys.

8. Through Family. Same as above.

9. Volunteer Orginizations. The best place to meet guys who share your passions.

10. Church, Temple, or other Religious Orginization. Great way to meet guys who share your values.

11. Social Groups. There are tons of gay social groups out there including baseball teams, bowling leauges, backpacking/camping groups, board game/card clubs, book clubs, science clubs, bands/chorus, etc. No better place to meet guys who share your intrests.

Of course all of those require you to be out of the closet. But if you know you're gay, and want a relationship, you need to be out anyway.

My big complaint in the gay community has always been the rampant ageism in it.

I've only ever found that to be a big problem in the under 25 crowd. Past that age most guys (though not all) grow out of the obsession with youth. Then again, I've always tended to date older guys (30ish to 60ish). Even when I was 18 (36 now).

I've found the whole fixation with "the perfect body" in the gay community to be a far greater problem. God help you if (like me) you don't spend 2 hours a day at the gym no matter what your age.

Glad to know I'm not alone. :)

You're not. Though at 18 it can seem like it. At that age everyones hormones are running rampant, and it's a lot harder (though not impossible) to find a guy at that age wanting to settle down. The older you and your peers get, the less that will be a problem. Promise. :)

I've only ever found that to be a big problem in the under 25 crowd. Past that age most guys (though not all) grow out of the obsession with youth. Then again, I've always tended to date older guys (30ish to 60ish). Even when I was 18 (36 now).

I've found the whole fixation with "the perfect body" in the gay community to be a far greater problem. God help you if (like me) you don't spend 2 hours a day at the gym no matter what your age.

You know, you're right, although I do try to take care of myself because as an actor I am in a wickedly competitive business. I am by no means a Gold Gym workout queen.

I like a man to respect his body (we all fall short in that department at times, unfortunately) but I am in no way attracted to a muscle queen.

I would rather meet a guy with a nice sense of humor, a nice personality and a respect for both himself and his body than someone who is obsessed with the outside appearance.

<sigh> Mid-thirties is rough in West Hollywood, California.

5. The Internet - There are many scary people on the internet. The internet is a scary place, yet while chat rooms may indeed be filled with people looking for hook-ups, you may find that it is probably the easiest method for meeting someone like you who is interested in some sort of relationship that goes beyond sex. However one talks on the internet before meeting in person, the less likely you are to connect with the other person as you will come to view them merely as words and a small jpeg.I agree with a lot of what you said, but not this. I think you're more likely to connect with someone over the internet because you would be less hampered by their physical appearance. It is true that people lie on the internet, but I would disagree with most people and say that lying doesn't happen more on the internet than it would off of the internet.

Well hold on, the ageism, the body obsession, the lack of commitment... This isn't a gay thing, its a humans who are at all sexually active thing. Some will say its good. Some bad. But why is it a gay thing?

How abominable. Seeing what's been written confirms the inherent promoscuity and amorality of most gay people. The just and righteous punishment for homosexual sex is death.

You can save yourself from this condemnation into hell, however, by confessing your sins to the Lord, accepting Jesus into your heart, and turning away from them. No one will take this advice, but for the record, good luck.

Nice word.

The problem with gay men is that I don't stand a chance with the cute ones. :(


Though it's not a problem at the moment, since I've got a bf who is delightful. :D

Sex is good. Love is better. Your thoughts?
The trouble with the majority of gays is that that is their only source of self-identity.

So Fass, are you against gay marriage, too? ;)

I've seen studies from the American Psychological Association that put the numbers of gays that are in or have been involved in a committed (a year or more) same-sex monogamous relationship at 40-60 percent for men and up to 80 percent for women.

If that's accurate, and considering that not every heterosexual is currenty in or has been in such a relationship of their own, that practice seems like more of a human thing than simply a hetero thing. Evolutionary biology seems to point to this as well about monogamy, and human history pretty conclusively shows that stable, loving partnerships or families are useful for the preservation of society.

I've seen studies from the American Psychological Association that put the numbers of gays that are in or have been involved in a committed (a year or more) same-sex monogamous relationship at 40-60 percent for men and up to 80 percent for women.

Given the divorce rate in the US, it seems to me that both hererosexuals, and homosexuals are similar in this regard.

Given the divorce rate in the US, it seems to me that both hererosexuals, and homosexuals are similar in this regard.
I don't know, divorce is more of a legal matter that's contingent on the laws of a particular society than it is psychological like with love, and even with the advent of no-fault divorce it still presumes that there was a monogamous relationship that was committed enough for them to get married in the first place, whether it lasted or not.

Well hold on, the ageism, the body obsession, the lack of commitment... This isn't a gay thing, its a humans who are at all sexually active thing. Some will say its good. Some bad. But why is it a gay thing?

I have no comparitive experience on the subject, but granted, you are correct. It is more correctly, a human thing.

It does however, seem to be magnified in the gay community.

How abominable. Seeing what's been written confirms the inherent promiscuity and amorality of most gay people. The just and righteous punishment for homosexual sex is death.

You can save yourself from this condemnation into hell, however, by confessing your sins to the Lord, accepting Jesus into your heart, and turning away from them. No one will take this advice, but for the record, good luck.

I am sorry you feel this way. But God does not hate, nor does he punish love. The God of love does not reward those who would murder in his name. Funny how the organized religions in this world make a big deal of different and say the remedy is death (See the 11 Crusades of the Roman Catholic Church and the 3 Inquisitions, see the various Jihads of extremist Muslim sects ordered by extreme, radical Mullahs and Muzzein, see the hateful rhetoric spewed by men like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, none of these institutions or people are even REMOTELY Christian). Remember Faith, Hope and Charity? No? What a pity.

God, in his infinite wisdom, made us sexual creatures...all of us. Not just gay folks. Promiscuity is not necessarily wise, but it sure isn't punishable by the death. God gave us free will and the choice is ours how we live our lives.

Living a moral and/or ethical life is recognized as a good thing and this I hope we all commit to. But proscription of and denial of a person's worth based on something artificially created is unChristian.

Do as ye will, and do ye no harm.

Ahh...trolls...gotta love 'em.

You're not. Though at 18 it can seem like it. At that age everyones hormones are running rampant, and it's a lot harder (though not impossible) to find a guy at that age wanting to settle down. The older you and your peers get, the less that will be a problem. Promise. :)
*raises hand, bounds aroud the place*

Me! Me! Me! Pick me!

23 years old gay guy looking to settle down and pass the rest of his life living happily ever after and being all cuddly and smoochy!

...

Dammit. :(

How abominable. Seeing what's been written confirms the inherent promiscuity and amorality of most gay people. The just and righteous punishment for homosexual sex is death.

You can save yourself from this condemnation into hell, however, by confessing your sins to the Lord, accepting Jesus into your heart, and turning away from them. No one will take this advice, but for the record, good luck.
How about you go, you know, fuck yourself or something?

Perhaps someday you'll stop hating yourself. When that happens, stopping the hate you feel towards others is just around the corner.

How abominable. Seeing what's been written confirms the inherent promiscuity and amorality of most gay people. The just and righteous punishment for homosexual sex is death.

You can save yourself from this condemnation into hell, however, by confessing your sins to the Lord, accepting Jesus into your heart, and turning away from them. No one will take this advice, but for the record, good luck.

Tell me, what is amoral about homosexuality. And it is not a sin because sin is impossible; how can you sin against something that transends all human imperfection?...That is impossible.

And what has been written that confirms the inherent promiscuity and amority of most gay people? I'd like to know!

*raises hand, bounds aroud the place*

Me! Me! Me! Pick me!

23 years old gay guy looking to settle down and pass the rest of his life living happily ever after and being all cuddly and smoochy!

...

Dammit. :(


Where were you when I was your age? Wait a minute..don't answer that question...you were 12 years old. <sigh>

(Fondly wishes Skaladora well in his hunt for happiness)

<sad little smile>

There are those who will find this insulting, but so what - if you say "I am a heterosexual" or "I am a homosexual", you block out 50% of people you'll meet, no matter how amazing they might be.

I often am confused by this as well. I accept and respect that some people feel attracted only to members of one gender, but to me that is like hearing that somebody is only attracted to members of one ethnic group.


If you say "I will only be monogamous" or "I will only have casual sex", you block out all sorts of emotional and sexual possibilities. Why on earth would you do that?
It can depend. For instance, some people say, "I am not emotionally or physically comfortable being in a non-monogamous relationship, and therefore I will require monogamous situations." That is perfectly reasonable and fair; we should all be honest with ourselves about what we enjoy and what we find comfortable, and we should not be afraid to let our partner(s) know about these things.

Similarly, some people say, "I do not feel ready/willing to be in a monogamous situation, and therefore I will not make a commitment to be monogamous with anybody." I think that is much better than saying, "Well, I guess I'll try being monogamous, more or less, even though I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up cheating."

For this comment, Strasse II, you receive a 3 Day Forum Ban. Advocating the death of other posters is strictly not allowed.

As to the rest of the comments, I encourage the other posters that disagree to express their disagreement in a matter that systematically dismantles the argument. Not to call someone names.

Erastide
~Forum Moderator
Uh ... what if you're at least consistent about it and advocate the death of ALL posters? :p

Uh ... what if you're at least consistent about it and advocate the death of ALL posters? :p

Well, then I guess that counts as volunteering to be first in line, no? :p

Well, then I guess that counts as volunteering to be first in line, no? :p
Nahh. I'll be last so I can make sure everyone gets there. :D

Interesting - advocating death gets you a ban, and yet there's a smiley with a sniper rifle....


Anyway, on to the subject at hand. The latest I've heard on the subject is that there are several biological factors that contribute to male homosexuality. (female homosexuality seems to be different and investigated less)

One of the interesting theories is that male fetuses expose the mother to new hormones that her body has not been exposed to. Her body responds by producing other female hormones. In some cases this affects the developing fetus. This accounts for the statistical facts that right handed men born with older brothers are more likely to be gay. The mother has been exposed to more male hormones and so begins producing female hormones sooner. It also appears that left handed men have enough neurological difference that this doesn't affect them.

Full disclosure: I'm male, heterosexual and looking for a committed relationship (and since I'm single, I'm not being forced into it). However, I am fascinated by the variations in human sexuality and look on diversity as a good thing.

I often am confused by this as well. I accept and respect that some people feel attracted only to members of one gender, but to me that is like hearing that somebody is only attracted to members of one ethnic group.
Most people are only attracted to one species, so why not one gender?

I know species is different to gender, but so is ethnicity. I'm just showing it from the other side.

Most people are only attracted to one species, so why not one gender?

I know species is different to gender, but so is ethnicity. I'm just showing it from the other side.
Um, I don't see how those are remotely comparable.

As a gay man, I wholeheartedly agree that "gay culture" is entirely too "sex-orientated." I don't consider myself a prude. I've indulged in it myself in the past (and still do, to some extent), but finding a 'partner' is difficult on a scene where most people want no form of attachment. Whereas I crave commitment and loyalty, a lot of the gay men I know want nothing of the sort - and it often depresses me. Sometimes I feel love is dead in the gay scene, even though it's entirely possible. I myself have fell in love with someone only to be told by them that they simply do not want love. The stereotype that gay men are more promiscuous than their straight counterparts may not be entirely true, but since there are less gay men than straight men, it appears that gay men are more promiscuous.

Sex is good. Love is better. Your thoughts?

I've been "the prude" and I've been "the slut" and I've really come to think that people do entirely too much moralising about sex. I came out when I was 17 but didn't have sex until I was 21 because I was "waiting" for Mr Right, wanted the ("straight") fairy tale of love and a commitment and all that, and in retrospect I really do think that back then I wanted that because society conditions us to believe it's better. 90% or so of people, being straight, and many being happy (or unhappy) within the whole model of 'the couple,' it's impressed on us that everyone should enjoy (or suffer) the same fate. But when I got tired of 'waiting' and saw other gay men I'd met mostly just wanting to have sexcapades I figured I'd get into 'the game' myself. So I played it pretty hard, racked up a bit of a body-count, and felt fine doing it. Eventually I fell for a guy who fell for me, though I never really mean to, didn't really want to settle down and make a new commitment at the time, and we've been together (and monogamous) for almost 3 years now. And if we broke up tomorrow, I wouldn't have any real reservations about slutting around again (except that I've put on a little "married weight" so might have a harder time picking up now).
Looking back on the time I've spent being one or being the other, and thinking a lot about sex and what it means. And I don't have a problem with people who have a lot of sex, so long as they do it safely and with consentual partners. Sex feels good, we're built to enjoy it, so why shouldn't we? And sure, I still giggle at their expense when their adventures get them in awkard or uncomfortable situations, and I have little patience for them when they can't take responsibility for their actions. I don't have sympathy for the guys who have sex with three guys who all get jealous and then talk nasty about him for what a 'slut' he is, because it was his choice. But I no longer judge him for how he made it (as long as it was safe and consentual, again).
And love feels good, too, and some people want that and get frustrated when they can't get it with the person they want because that person just wants sex. But that's no excuse for mistreating or disrespecting others for their own choices. I love being in a relationship that's full of love, but if I was single again I'd definitely be chasing sex- casual or otherwise- with as many hot guys as would have me. And either way, I'd be an adult making my own choices, and as long as I wasn't hurting anyone there would be no question of "morality." Sex is a physical act, imbued with as much meaning and sentimentality as we *choose* to attribute to it.

As for the question of why gay men in particular seem to 'adventure' so much, consider how much sexual exploration straight youths engage in. Lots. And a LOT of gay youths are too confused or nervous to have that when they're at that age; a lot of them come out later in life, and maybe they're entitled to play catch up. Maybe they're entitled to some interest on top of that, for the repression and the 'retardation' (in the temporal sense of the word, no stigma intended) they suffered as a result of growing up in a heterosexist society. Maybe the fact that sex between men doesn't make babies and doesn't conform to the "straight" commitmental relationship model, maybe the fact that it's subtly impressed on so many of us growing up that gay relationship's aren't equal and ought not to be taken as seriously as straight relationships (so subtly that we internalise it before we even know overtly that we're gay) means that instead of judging and condemning us for our choices and our behaviour, society should be looking to itself and accepting responsibility for how its conventions affect us. If we all felt *really* free to be sexual, regardless of orientation, and the rigid structures of 'marital bliss' weren't pushed on everyone so hard, I'd be willing to bet that there'd be a lot more sexually adventurous 'straight' people, and a lot more self-affirmed, commitmental 'gay' people, and much more happiness for everybody, to boot.

Also, to tangent REALLY soon, I'd like to ask Mindset a question. Strasse II implies that gay men choose to be gay. Do you feel that you did? Cos not being one, I don't know, and am curious.

Seriously, the simpest way to answer this question is to invert it.

"So-n-so implies that straight men choose to be straight. Do you feel that you did? Cuz, not being one, I don't know, and I'm curious."

I really doubt you or any other straight guy chose to be straight. Sexual orientation just is. You didn't even realise you were something called "straight" until you knew there was anything else a person could be. You were just attracted to girls, and that felt normal because it was built in to you. Gay people just grow up feeling same-sex attractions, but generally, as soon as an adult notices that it's usually impressed upon us pretty fast that that's "not right." So we learned very early on that there was an alternative. We didn't understand it, because those feelings were as alien to us as gay feelings would be to a straight guy. And it isn't until later in life that some of us decide whoever told us as kids that we "weren't right" was speaking from their experience, not ours. So we "come out," and it looks like a choice because we spent however long repressing how we actually felt, either trying to emulate the boys who liked girls, or just being asexual while the other boys were out chasing girls. There really was never a choice in *what* to be, only when to accept it and how to show it. And once we come out, sometimes we go a little overboard and act very different. Such is self-discovery, figuring out how much we have in common with other gay people and sorting out how we want to present ourselves, since the straight 'model' doesn't seem to fit and has usually come to be associated with our repression.

Seriously, the simpest way to answer this question is to invert it.

"So-n-so implies that straight men choose to be straight. Do you feel that you did? Cuz, not being one, I don't know, and I'm curious."
Indeed.

Most of us have a lot of control over who we do and do not sleep with. We also have control over who we do and do not go on dates with, enter relationships with, and hang around with. However, I've yet to meet a single human being who is able to consciously control who they are and are not attracted to. Attraction is something that is largely beyond our control, though we are fortunate to be able to control how we act on our attractions. :)

Um, I don't see how those are remotely comparable.
OK, I'm not sure who's misunderstanding who here.

You were saying that only being attracted to one gender is like being only attracted to one ethnicity. However, the differences between genders are much greater than the differences between ethnicities.

You spoke as if the differences were smaller than they really were, so I spoke as if the differences were greater. I was providing you with the opposite viewpoint (although it was more extreme than anything I actually believe).