NationStates Jolt Archive

Tell me what your opinion on him is. Lying cheater destroying the game? One of the greatest hitters ever?

Personally, I don't like him. As a Pirates fan, he was a big letdown when they had him: couldn't throw a guy out at 3rd, couldn't hit a HR in the playoffs. Then he gets traded to San Fran and gets huge and is this "wonderful" player. I'd like to see him taken out of the record book.

Thoughts?

The whole major league is a joke.

The whole major league is a joke.

professional sports are a joke. It's a bunch of people who either
1. Use steriods
2. Deal drugs
3. rape
4. murder

Why? Because they can get away with it. Lastly, why should they be PAID to PLAY A GAME?

Lastly, why should they be PAID to PLAY A GAME?
Entertainment

Why? Because they can get away with it. Lastly, why should they be PAID to PLAY A GAME?

Because people are willing to pay to see them play.

professional sports are a joke. It's a bunch of people who either
1. Use steriods
2. Deal drugs
3. rape
4. murder

Why? Because they can get away with it. Lastly, why should they be PAID to PLAY A GAME?

Um... No. First of all, many athletes think that they can get away with it, but can't. Many teams in many sports will not sign a player, or will get rid of a player because of his off the field issues. Many professional athletic leagues have very strict steroid and illegal drug use rules (look up what has happened to Ricky Williams, American football player).

There are upstanding people who play sports, who donate millions of dollars to charity and are good role models for children. However, good athletes are not often noticed by the media, because the media likes to focus on the bad guys in sports.

Back on topic: Barry Bonds is innocent until proven guilty. I have to say, I believe he is taking steroids, and would hate it if he broke any records. But there is nothing anyone can do about taking him out of the record books unless he is a proven cheater. And the new book about him seems to offer good proof, but its just a book.

I have to say, I believe he is taking steroids, and would hate it if he broke any records.

He's already broken dozens of records. The only reason people care whether or not he's taking steroids is because he's challenging the home run records. No one would give a flying fuck if it weren't for that one single record.

He's already broken dozens of records. The only reason people care whether or not he's taking steroids is because he's challenging the home run records. No one would give a flying fuck if it weren't for that one single record.
Yep, and it's not like he's the first person to use an enhancer. Hell, this is the first year that the majors are testing for amphetamines, and they've been illegal for decades now. During the 80s, it was cocaine. Throughout baseball, it's been sandpaper or spit or vaseline or something to get an edge on a pitch. So why all the crap over this?

Part of it is that Bonds has always had a hostile relationship with the media. Sure, he used steroids, but so did between a third and half of the league--not too many of them were popping homers like Barry, though, so there's got to be more to it than just the steroids. I hope he hits 800, personally, and I hope I get to see it in person--the tickets will go nicely next to the ones I have for number 700.

Yep, and it's not like he's the first person to use an enhancer. Hell, this is the first year that the majors are testing for amphetamines, and they've been illegal for decades now. During the 80s, it was cocaine. Throughout baseball, it's been sandpaper or spit or vaseline or something to get an edge on a pitch. So why all the crap over this?

Part of it is that Bonds has always had a hostile relationship with the media. Sure, he used steroids, but so did between a third and half of the league--not too many of them were popping homers like Barry, though, so there's got to be more to it than just the steroids. I hope he hits 800, personally, and I hope I get to see it in person--the tickets will go nicely next to the ones I have for number 700.

It's because the home run record is for some reason sacred in baseball. No one cares whether Bonds was on steroids during all the intentional walks that got him that record, or all the extra-base hits or anything else. People only care about home runs, and that's the only reason why Bonds being on steroids is even discussed. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of baseball players out there taking steroids, and none of them have anywhere near the media frenzy that Bonds has. You know why? Because none of them are sitting within striking distance of that fucking cross.

It's because the home run record is for some reason sacred in baseball. No one cares whether Bonds was on steroids during all the intentional walks that got him that record, or all the extra-base hits or anything else. People only care about home runs, and that's the only reason why Bonds being on steroids is even discussed. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of baseball players out there taking steroids, and none of them have anywhere near the media frenzy that Bonds has. You know why? Because none of them are sitting within striking distance of that fucking cross.
That's exactly right.

It's because the home run record is for some reason sacred in baseball. No one cares whether Bonds was on steroids during all the intentional walks that got him that record, or all the extra-base hits or anything else. People only care about home runs, and that's the only reason why Bonds being on steroids is even discussed. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of baseball players out there taking steroids, and none of them have anywhere near the media frenzy that Bonds has. You know why? Because none of them are sitting within striking distance of that fucking cross.

Actually, my least favorite steroids player is Jason Giambi. Anyone who thinks that he is off steroids is a fool. Well, it's possible he's on HGH, but thats just as bad. The reason that Barry Bonds has the media attention is the home run record, obviously. The records that Barry Bonds has already broken are not as much of a big deal as the home run record in my opinion. The home run, although not always the most exciting play, is the best thing that a baseball player can do in an at-bat. Therefore, it is the most "sacred" statistic.

And I believe, that with the new steroid rules in MLB, there are not many people who are still taking them. Many pitcher's MPH are down, as are many power numbers (from what I've seen, not from actual statistics, so I might be wrong). I have no respect for anyone who I believe takes steroids.

And on a second thought, I don't think that they can just erase his records. He did do everything he did (as opposed to Yogi Berra :p), so they are his records. Many other people in the history of baseball have cheated; I don't have to respect them, but they did, and still do, set the records.

I don't think I've ever heard of him before this thread.

Pro sports are rediculous! Id go to local games, but only if it was free. The fact that people are willing to pay hundreds for good tickets attests to the stupidity.:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: I feel dumber watching pro sports.

He's already broken dozens of records. The only reason people care whether or not he's taking steroids is because he's challenging the home run records. No one would give a flying fuck if it weren't for that one single record.

Actually they do. The will say he broke the record but the will also say it was easy for him since he was on the juice.

Look what happened to Mark McGwire when he confessed.....

It's because the home run record is for some reason sacred in baseball. No one cares whether Bonds was on steroids during all the intentional walks that got him that record, or all the extra-base hits or anything else. People only care about home runs, and that's the only reason why Bonds being on steroids is even discussed. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of baseball players out there taking steroids, and none of them have anywhere near the media frenzy that Bonds has. You know why? Because none of them are sitting within striking distance of that fucking cross.

Then the question remains. Could he have made the record without the juice?

Then the question remains. Could he have made the record without the juice?
My question is, does it really matter? Like I noted above, cheating has always been a part of the game, hell, of any game. Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame and he became a joke about the kind of stuff he did to a baseball while pitching. Players have been using performance enhancers since they were invented, even when they were little more than snake oil, so why all the hubbub now? There's a group of people who claim the game was pure in the past and that we're dirtying it up now--sorry, but that's nostalgic crap. When you're dealing with this level of money and fame, one thing becomes very clear--most people are only as honest as their opportunities force them to be.

The home run record isn't quite what is sacred, although it is directly related.

Baseball has been marketed, for as long as I can remember, around its history; it is America's pasttime, and the MLB doesn't want us to forget that.

So the home run record isn't what is sacred, it is the near mythological effort that we attribute to getting the record that is sacred. Hank Aaron is on par with John Henry in that respect, where 755 represents the pinnacle of human achievement, of pure human will. We idolize it because those of us who enjoy baseball, in one hand identify with Aaron because we are on a level with him, but also realize that he has a greatness that we will never achieve.

What Bonds has done is cheapened not the record, but the heroics behind the record. Where Aaron proved himself to be great, did something that we try but cannot do, Bonds has only proved that greatness can come artificially. The heroes of the past are being surpassed through technology and greatness now comes in syringes, and it counters everything we love about baseball. John Henry is losing to the machine.

Actually they do. The will say he broke the record but the will also say it was easy for him since he was on the juice.

Look what happened to Mark McGwire when he confessed.....

That's not the point. What I'm saying is that no one cares if Bonds' intentional walk record is tainted, or if his slugging percentage record is tainted, or if his extra-base hit record is tainted. No one cares whether there was anything wrong with the way any other record has been set. The only record where this public discourse occurs is the home run record. If Bonds wasn't threatening Aaron's record, then no one would care that he was doing steroids at all.

That's not the point. What I'm saying is that no one cares if Bonds' intentional walk record is tainted, or if his slugging percentage record is tainted, or if his extra-base hit record is tainted. No one cares whether there was anything wrong with the way any other record has been set. The only record where this public discourse occurs is the home run record. If Bonds wasn't threatening Aaron's record, then no one would care that he was doing steroids at all.

Not quite; if Barry Bonds were taking performance-enhancing drugs that allowed him to bat .400 for the season or break DiMaggio's 56-at-bat record, we'd be throwing syringes at him too.

I think Vittos has it exactly right: it's not the breaking of the record in and of itself that matters. It's the twofold fact that 1) unlike every other sport, baseball statistics tie in with skill in a way that other sports just don't match, and 2) that tie is being severed by technology.

Football and basketball have stats too, but they don't link really well with overall ability: Joe Montana was probably the second-greatest quarterback to ever live behind Unitas, but on the all-time touchdown list he's behind people like Peyton Manning, who isn't even the best Colt quarterback of all time. Jim Brown is still probably the best back in history, but he's around 8th or so on the all-time rushing list behind Otis Anderson, who unless you're a Giants fan wouldn't remember at all. Hell, some of the best athletes on the field and most integral members of any football squad are the offensive linemen, who have no stats at all. So statistics and greatness in the NFL are in many ways divorced from one another. Not so with baseball: when we say that a guy has a lifetime batting average of .350, he's a pretty damn good ballplayer, no matter what era he lives in. When we say a guy pitches a 95-mph fastball and has an ERA of 2.0, he's a pretty damn good pitcher no matter when he pitched. As such, we can use stats to compare, say, Satchell Paige, Nolan Ryan, and Roger Clemens in a way that we never could with, say, Fran Tarkenton, Roger Staubach, and Otto Graham. We can also directly tie those stats to what seem like superhuman effort. When we say, for instance, that Lou Gehrig batted just below .300 when he was dying, we can only imagine how inhuman the Iron Horse really was, whereas when we say that an ailing Emmitt Smith managed a 176-yard day, we have to factor in how porous the opposing defensive line was, how much heavier his offensive line was than the D, how much linebacker support had to be split off to help with defending the receivers, etc.

Put in that context, Ted Williams last .400 season or DiMaggio's 56-at-bat record, or even Babe Ruth's 60-home run season or lifetime total all seem much more sacred and much more poignant. They don't represent team effort; they represent one man beating the snot out of some damn good pitchers all season long in a way that no mere mortal could accomplish. When we see these records broken, then, and especially when we see them broken not by better men but by lesser men with better pharmacists, it's hard not to sense that something is being lost, if not torn out, from our sense of what man can accomplish if he really puts his mind to it.

Well, let's look at the context of some of those athletes. Babe Ruth didn't play against black athletes. Neither did Ted Williams. Should the fact that they weren't playing against the best competition available denigrate their accomplishments any? I don't believe so--but then again, I'm not one for the sacred power of records either. Bonds has done what he has done in an era of great competition where not only are the best players in the US competing--the best international players are competing as well. That has to be factored into any discussion as well.

There's one way in which Ruth was demonstrably superior--he was an All-Star pitcher before he became a slugger. There's also the fact that he changed the game itself--before Ruth, power hitting wasn't much of a factor, and maybe that's why some fanboys take his status so seriously, because he was the originator. But Bonds passing him won't change that status, so I really don't know what they're getting so worked up over.

One last comment on this. There's all this griping and complaining because Bonds is so close to Ruth and eventually, Aaron. But when he passes both of them, you'll have people--for decades--claiming that they were always fans of the guy and that they saw him hit the magical homer.

One last comment on this. There's all this griping and complaining because Bonds is so close to Ruth and eventually, Aaron. But when he passes both of them, you'll have people--for decades--claiming that they were always fans of the guy and that they saw him hit the magical homer.

I don't really think Bonds will pass Aaron. He's got so little left in him and there's no reason to pitch to him anymore. He'll pass Ruth, but it's going to take a lot for him to get past Aaron.

I don't really think Bonds will pass Aaron. He's got so little left in him and there's no reason to pitch to him anymore. He'll pass Ruth, but it's going to take a lot for him to get past Aaron.
I think a lot of it will depend on this year. If he gets to, oh, 735 or so, then I imagine he'll stick around another year and try to give it a shot. If he craps out this year, and only hits a dozen or so--and I have real trouble believing that'll happen, as pitchers won't have as much incentive to pitch around him once he gets to 715--then he may call it a career.