NationStates Jolt Archive

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE?

Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex?

Your thoughts & experiences?

Spanking just teaches violence, fear, and law of the strongest. And it harms.

Children are human beings, and deserve respect, to be listened to. They are fragile, and must take extra care of them, to make them feel comfortable. A parent-child relationship has to be built on mutual respect and love, not on fear and force.

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)

Your thoughts & experiences?

I think spanking children is a good way to instill discipline (this comes from personal experience), but I don't think children should be seen and not heard. A lot of learning comes from verbal (and other) interaction with adults, and I think interacting with adults provides a good basis for a future behavioural (providing the adults are "a good influence") pattern.

Yes, some people try to live vicariously through their own children. In some cases, this is ok, e.g. my mother likes hearing about my university studies as she would like to still be studying too.
But when you get parents who train children from the age of three to be tennis superstars...:rolleyes:

Spanking just teaches violence, fear, and law of the strongest. And it harms.

What about the other issues I cited? A good smack across the butt never killed anyone. I am not advocating BEATING children with belts, fists, sticks etc here.


Children are human beings, and deserve respect, to be listened to.

Children do not deverve respect, respect is EARNED not given. They must learn to first SHOW respect in order to get it. A lost lesson today.


They are fragile, and must take extra care of them, to make them feel comfortable. A parent-child relationship has to be built on mutual respect and love, not on fear and force.

So when did the scale tip where children have all the power in this relationship? More children today can manipulate and pit their parents against each other to get what they want, because parents are afraid "they won't love me". This leads to the over indulgence of a lot of children today.

Children need all those things you mentioned, but balanced with Dicipline, structure, and learning that parents are their authority and must be respected.

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations? They're as complicated and contradictory as any generation of children in teh past. No. No.


Do you advocate spanking? Only if done VERY infrequently and correctly... and in my experience, most people who spank do it frequently and incorrectly (while angry rather than as a logical, if extreme, consequence to similar extreme behaviors as set out BEFORE THE BEHAVIOR with the child in question).

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? It would make teaching them a much more difficult job.


Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? Only by certain "gotta give my kids everything" parents.


What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE? I'm sensing some bitterness on your part.


Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? Yes. Yes. But it's always been that way.


What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex? Again with the bitterness on your part. My childless and child-having friends respect each others' decisions. If you're running into this, you're hanging out with the wrong people.


Your thoughts & experiences? Have a beer, smoke a joint, do whatever it is you do, and CHILL OUT. It's not as bad as you seem to think it is, and I can say this having spent an eight hour day with a classroom full of primary students with Spring Fever. And I don't have kids of my own.

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE? I'm sensing some bitterness on your part.


What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex? Again with the bitterness on your part. My childless and child-having friends respect each others' decisions. If you're running into this, you're hanging out with the wrong people.

.

No, no bitterness on my part, but I do sense it from my friends who do have and are overwhelmed by their children. They often make comments about how "empty single peoples lives must be..."

I respect peoples life decisions, I just don't appreciate others looking down their noses at me for the decisions I make. You're right, maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people...:confused:

I hate kids. They’re simply annoying. Everything about them, their lack of knowledge, their impropriety, the crying in the movie theatre, the lack of hygiene and thus penchant for spreading disease, the kicking your seat on an airplane, the ways they talk and most importantly the policies the government puts in place to protect their “innocence.”
I fucking hate how we always have to be “thinking of the children.” Disgusting.

A good smack across the butt never killed anyone.

No, but it hurts, and teaches fear and violence.


Children do not deverve respect, respect is EARNED not given. They must learn to first SHOW respect in order to get it. A lost lesson today.


No. Respect has to be mutual. As soon as you lack of respect for someone, you shouldn't be surprised if he lack of respect for you. Respect, like trust, has to be mutual, it cannot exist in one way.


So when did the scale tip where children have all the power in this relationship? More children today can manipulate and pit their parents against each other to get what they want, because parents are afraid "they won't love me". This leads to the over indulgence of a lot of children today.

You don't need to spank them, or to lack of respect for them, for them to obey. I would say quite the opposite. My parents never spanked me, and BECAUSE OF THAT I have a lot of respect for them, and if I disobeyed to them sometimes (all kids do, and that's sane, obeying blindly is bad, children have to learn that too), I most of the time tried to please them.

Children need all those things you mentioned, but balanced with Dicipline, structure, and learning that parents are their authority and must be respected.

Teaching respect can be done much more efficiently when showing them respect than when trying to wrest it by fear. Fear is not respect.

As for discipline, children should be teached that contesting authority is right in some situations, as much as they should be teached that accepting authority is right in some situations. That's how we have emancipated citizen, and not robots.

What about the other issues I cited? A good smack across the butt never killed anyone. I am not advocating BEATING children with belts, fists, sticks etc here.

Children do not deverve respect, respect is EARNED not given. They must learn to first SHOW respect in order to get it. A lost lesson today.Children are great, much better than moldy old adults, festering in their own superiority complex.

There are better ways to teach a child the difference between right and wrong than hitting them. Direct eye contact, holding them whilst talking to them, getting down to their eye level, always using a separate tone for telling a child off, reasoning with them, keeping very strict disipline rules, not making punishments vindictive, etc...

Spanking is a form of attention and so should be avoided at all costs. For younger kids short periods of isolation are better.

I think there is too little emphasis on extra curicular activities. Kids don't get half as much exercise as they should. Lack of extra curicular activities means children can get too dependent on their parents.

The next three problems can happen, but I think the current problem is much the opposite - parents not caring enough about their children or too scared to get involved and so producing poor familiy relationships

These views are from my experiences of working with kids. Not just some 'junk' I picked up from a TV program.

edit: forgot my point about a respect. Respect is one of the few things that should be given to children by their parents automatically. If kids never experience respect then how can they know what it's like to have it, so why bother trying to earn it. Temporary taking away of respect can also be a good form of punishment.

Children are great, much better than moldy old adults, festering in their own superiority complex.

There are better ways to teach a child the difference between right and wrong than hitting them. Direct eye contact, holding them whilst talking to them, getting down to their eye level, always using a separate tone for telling a child off, reasoning with them, keeping very strict disipline rules, not making punishments vindictive, etc...

Spanking is a form of attention and so should be avoided at all costs. For younger kids short periods of isolation are better.

I think there is too little emphasis on extra curicular activities. Kids don't get half as much exercise as they should. Lack of extra curicular activities means children can get too dependent on their parents.

The next three problems can happen, but I think the current problem is much the opposite - parents not caring enough about their children or too scared to get involved and so producing poor familiy relationships

These views are from my experiences of working with kids. Not just some 'junk' I picked up from a TV program.

I agree with all of that.

No, no bitterness on my part, but I do sense it from my friends who do have and are overwhelmed by their children. They often make comments about how "empty single peoples lives must be..."

I respect peoples life decisions, I just don't appreciate others looking down their noses at me for the decisions I make. You're right, maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people...:confused:

(and remember, I'm a happily childless woman writing all this)

1. Perhaps referring to their cherished offspring as "brats" isn't the best way to win their respect.

2. Parenting DOES change a person... A LOT. They DO lose a little "sense of self," but it's kind of evolutionarily necessary that we be willing to give up stuff for any offspring we choose to have. Being "wrapped up in your kids" is generally a good thing, even at the expense of SOME sense of self, as long as it doesn't go too far.

3. Perhaps, rather than complaining about "kids in general" or "parents in general," you should explain to your specific friends that you are hurt when they make references to the relative emptiness of your life simply because you have chosen not to have children. In all likelihood they are truly so wrapped up in their current lives that they truly CAN'T imagine it any other way, and probably don't understand that you're hurt by their insinuations. My friends who have recently become parents are completely wrapped up in their children, and I just kind of have to accept that. I wouldn't accept any insinuation that my life was somehow "emptier," however.

"children are the future. so let's stop em now"

I agree with all of that.Thanks. And what do you think of my idea about respect?

My feelings are best summed up in song:

Lovejoy: Kids! You've had your fun, now we've had our fill.
Homer: Yeah! You're only here 'cause Marge forgot her pill.
Wiggum: Kids, you're all just scandalizing, vandalizing punks.
Krusty: Channel-hopping, Ritalin-popping monkeys! Please don't quit the fan-club!
Marge: Kids! I can nag and nag 'til my hair turns blue!
Edna: Kids! You bum my smokes and don't say 'thank you'!
Rod & Todd: Why can't you be like we are?
Adults: Oh, what a bunch of brats!
Moe: We oughta drown you just like cats!

Thank you.

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

Not really. My generation was at least as spoiled. Somehow, parents in the "Me Generation" '70s snapped out of their self-indulgence just long enough to overindulge their children.

Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)

No, I don't. Why do you?

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)

Define "seen and not heard". What does that accomplish?

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)

I'd say that probably varies from parent to parent.

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE?

No one's forcing them. And it's better than the parents who ignore or abuse their children.

Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)

Yes, there's too much "junk psychology" out there. Not all of it relates to child-rearing.

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex?

Or is it just bitterness on your part?

Your thoughts & experiences?

I think you need to re-examine your thoughts, and my experience is that of an abuse victim.

What do you think of children today??

Delicious.

Thanks. And what do you think of my idea about respect?

I agree too. ;)

Your thoughts & experiences?

Incidently, my thoughts are that you do not have any children.

In my experience, people with your attitude never will.

No, I don't. Why do you?.

Because sometimes, not always, it is the best and only way to get the point across. Mind you I do not advocate BEATING children with fists, belts, sticks and the like. Just a good swat across the thigh, it startles them more than anything. I certainly do not advocate smacking kids on a regular basis, only as a last resort.

Define "seen and not heard". What does that accomplish?.

Children need to learn from an early age to respect adult spaces, when adults are speaking, they should always say "excuse me" when interrupting. Most parents I know allow their kids to invate their space and do not respect boundaries, another symptom of over indulgence. What does this accomplish? It teaches them manners and respect for adults and their space, and how to earn respect as well.


No one's forcing them. And it's better than the parents who ignore or abuse their children. .

I feel its just as damaging. Spoiling your kids and teaching them they are the center of the universe breeds selfish, innadequate, insecure children who need constant reassurance. This is the perfect recipe for atrophied adults. There has to be a healthy middle ground.


Or is it just bitterness on your part?.

As I responded before, not bitterness, just annoyance. I see too many parents who spoil their kids and their lives in the process. As far as not wanting to have kids, thats a CHOICE I made, and as I respect their CHOICE, they should respect mine. Instead, people tend to see childless couples or singles as "damaged" or "bitter" for whatever reason. Sour grapes on their part I say. No children means more freedom, more money, and more time. Thats just me, everyone is different.

I think you need to re-examine your thoughts, and my experience is that of an abuse victim.

My parents never spanked me or my siblings, the only spanking I remember was from my grandmother, once. And I never forgot it! Often once is all it takes.

Incidently, my thoughts are that you do not have any children.

In my experience, people with your attitude never will.

Nor do I want any. Is that a terrible thing? This is the very attitude I was citing in my original post. Some people are not cut out to be parents, others just plain DO NOT want to, as in my case, its just that simple. Why is my choice to not have children less valid than yours to have them?

Some people think they MUST have kids and turn out to be the worst parents, because they grow to resent their children. I think if more people thought about what it means to ACTUALLY bring a live into the world and the monumental responsabilty that comes with it, people would have less kids and we would see a lot less cases of abuse and neglect. :mad:

I think people often forget that children do not become good or bad all by themselves, but that they follow examples, and the parents have the chance to live a good example and counter the bad examples the children see elsewhere.

On the point of spanking and the like I think that is only right in rare circumstances. In general I think children should be taught lessons so that they form beliefs they hold, not rules they follow that are enforced from outside, even if teaching that takes more time or engagement - when children rebel against (or just question the wisdom of) their parents the rules are questioned first, but the kids will hold on to their beliefs.

Incidently, my thoughts are that you do not have any children.

In my experience, people with your attitude never will.
You say that like it's a bad thing.

Pregnancy really is the worst of the sexually transmitted diseases.

Nor do I want any. Is that a terrible thing?

Did I say it was a terrible thing and, in any way, was my statement wrong?

You say that like it's a bad thing.

How? It's merely a correct statement. The OP doesn't have kids and never will.

Pregnancy really is the worst of the sexually transmitted diseases.

True.

How? It's merely a correct statement. The OP doesn't have kids and never will.
Sorry, it sounded derisive. Probably just me being mardy at this time in the morning...

Sorry, it sounded derisive. Probably just me being mardy at this time in the morning...

Oh. Well, I suppose it could read like that.

*hands you some coffee*

Oh. Well, I suppose it could read like that.

*hands you some coffee*
Ta, I need it.

Spanking just teaches violence, fear, and law of the strongest. And it harms.

Children are human beings, and deserve respect, to be listened to. They are fragile, and must take extra care of them, to make them feel comfortable. A parent-child relationship has to be built on mutual respect and love, not on fear and force.
Spanking doesn't, I was spanked when I littler... I ahven't been since I was like seven or something because I know how to behave properly...Know is the key word:D

I hate kids. They’re simply annoying. Everything about them, their lack of knowledge, their impropriety, the crying in the movie theatre, the lack of hygiene and thus penchant for spreading disease, the kicking your seat on an airplane, the ways they talk and most importantly the policies the government puts in place to protect their “innocence.”
I fucking hate how we always have to be “thinking of the children.” Disgusting.
:fluffle:

I hate kids. They’re simply annoying. Everything about them, their lack of knowledge, their impropriety, the crying in the movie theatre, the lack of hygiene and thus penchant for spreading disease, the kicking your seat on an airplane, the ways they talk and most importantly the policies the government puts in place to protect their “innocence.”
I fucking hate how we always have to be “thinking of the children.” Disgusting.


I don't know you, but I think I love you a little.

Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)
No. its barbaric and just teaches them violence

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)
No. Thats just ageist.
Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)
Yes. very yes.
What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE?
you are the most ageist person ever. the are people as well for goodness sakes. And its better than people who beat and abuse thir kids all the time. I kinda think thats what you would be like if you had them.
Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)
I don't understand.
What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex?
They are idiots.

I think spanking children is a good way to instill discipline (this comes from personal experience), but I don't think children should be seen and not heard. A lot of learning comes from verbal (and other) interaction with adults, and I think interacting with adults provides a good basis for a future behavioural (providing the adults are "a good influence") pattern.

Yes, some people try to live vicariously through their own children. In some cases, this is ok, e.g. my mother likes hearing about my university studies as she would like to still be studying too.
But when you get parents who train children from the age of three to be tennis superstars...:rolleyes:

Wow... I think and you speak :D

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

No, although I think the children of the more wealthy (myself included) are less aware of just how well off they are, when compared to most of the world. There are spoiled children, but they exist in no larger quantities than existed before (and their peers, if not their parents, will normally straighten them out)...

There have been useless preps in every generation.
Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)

Do you advocate 7 foot tall men hitting 5 foot tall men because the 5 foot tall men can't defend themselves? Do you advocate the bullying of small children by larger children?

It's basically identical, 'cept the parents don't even have to worry about the law handling them. Any parent who depends on physical violence to parent is a poor parent indeed.

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)

:rolleyes:

Do you think adults should be seen and not heard? When I hear things like this, I sure do.

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)

You underestimate how little time is necessary to get a high grade in even the most advanced classes.

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

Do you advocate spanking? No, but I will be honest and admit that I have spanked (open hand, clothed bottom) my kids on 2 or 3 occasions. In retrospect, however, it was my fault that I did not keep them in line earlier and let things get to the point that they "deserved" a spank. As the adult, it's my job to maintain control. Spanking means that a situation has gotten out of control. It models terrible behavior.

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? No more than there are vast numbers of adults who should be neither seen nor heard.

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? Not if the activity is of the child's choosing, and their schoolwork doesn't suffer for it. There are too many parents who get their kid involved in things they'd rather not do. My kids choose one or two activities (my daughter takes ballet, and my son is playing soccer, and they are both starting music lessons) as they can do that as long as they enjoy it. I didn't pick the activity, and I'm not choosing the instrument, and if their grades fall, they'll need to decide what to give up. Done well, extra-currricular activites support children becoming well rounded adults. There aren't enough of them anymore.

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE? Yup. Just as there are lots of people whose lives revolve around their jobs, and they lose their identity as well-rounded people. It's a problem for many adults. That said, raising children well takes time and effort, and if you're not willing to give up a good amount of your "me" time to do that, you really shouldn't even consider having them. But, we act responsibly when we show our children that we have responsibilities, hobbies and interests of our own, too.

Is there too much junk psychology out there? I think there's a lot of people who self diagnose and tend to whine about things that they have every ability to control in their lives, but I also think there are a lot of people who genuinely need psychological help. I don't think pop-psychology is the real problem when it comes to rearing children.

Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? Absolutely. One example from when I was in high school was the ridiculous way that parents involved themselves in school sporting events. Beyond going to games and screaming at referees, they had these booster clubs to raise money -- not for sports equipment -- but for these phenominal awards banquets where kids were given loads of gifts, for extravagant trips for their kids.

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex? I can't say too much about this, as I don't look down on people who don't have kids, and don't have experience with people who do. It's a choice, no more or no less. I suppose since I have children, I hear more about people who think it's stupid to have kids than I hear from people who think it's stupid to not have them, but I tend to ignore such nonsense anyway, since it's noones damn business if I decide to have kids or not.



The oompa loompas said it best...

"For though she's spoiled, and dreadfully so,
A girl can't spoil herself, you know.
Alas! you needn't look so far
To find out who these sinners are.
They are (and this is very sad)
Her loving parents, MUM and DAD."

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE?

Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex?

Your thoughts & experiences?

I feel sorry for any children you may have now or might have in the future. Children are people. Spanking a child seems to be okay in our society because they are smaller and weaker. If you hit an adult it would be assault. I try not to spank my girls ( I have a few times, like when they tried to play with the light socket) because I believe it teaches them 3 things

1) it's okay to hit people when you are mad
2) you deserve physical abuse
3) being bigger gives you rights that others don't have

I don't like any of those.

I don't believe children are to be seen and not heard, just like I don't believe women are to be seen and not heard. Children should be polite and respectful, but never forced to be silent.

I do agree that there are situations in which children are thrown too much in to "extra-curriculars" to the point where it interferes with their education, but I do think that it's important for a child to have hobbies, it's a sad life if you don't have something that you enjoy.

My life is highly involved with my children, I spend 24 hours a day with them most days, I don't believe that I have had to give up any of my own personality to do so. My life revolves around my role as a wife and a mother, but guess what? I am still me. Someone who can't be in a relationship, or have children and still be themselves has a problem, and it's not anyone's fault but their own.

There is a ton of junk psychology out there, I tend to not pay attention to most of it.

I don't look down on people without children, I do look down on people who say they "hate kids", they are sick people indeed.*



*I have to clarify that there is a huge difference between "I don't like to be around kids", "I don't want any kids", "I don't like being around young children" , and "I don't like brats"... none of those qualify as "I hate kids", in fact most of those are quite normal (or within nomal ranges)

Because sometimes, not always, it is the best and only way to get the point across. Mind you I do not advocate BEATING children with fists, belts, sticks and the like. Just a good swat across the thigh, it startles them more than anything. I certainly do not advocate smacking kids on a regular basis, only as a last resort.

spanking is the last resort of bad parenting. its never necessary if you know what you are doing and put the right effort into parenting.

I feel sorry for any children you may have now or might have in the future. Children are people. Spanking a child seems to be okay in our society because they are smaller and weaker. If you hit an adult it would be assault. I try not to spank my girls ( I have a few times, like when they tried to play with the light socket) because I believe it teaches them 3 things

1) it's okay to hit people when you are mad
2) you deserve physical abuse
3) being bigger gives you rights that others don't have

I don't like any of those.


But don't you think there is a way to spank without teaching these three things? I think you would agree that discipline is necessary, and that spanking is to be the last sensible form of discipline to use, but I can't help thinking that some forms of currently popular discipline, like isolating a child in his or her room for an hour or so are quite a good way to teach a child that it is bad to be alone (when being alone is actually not such a bad thing). Another form of discipline is missing out on sweets after dinner, and so the child may grow up over-indulging in sweets at any given chance. When I think about it, any discipline has the potential to teach the wrong lesson, not just spanking.

My own dad was a physically violent person, and I'm pretty much the opposite, and yet some little bell of caution 'clangs' every time someone comes out with an extreme, like 'spanking is always wrong', or 'spanking is the best form of discipline'. Personally, I say that spanking should be the last resort, since the potentially bad lessons a child can learn from it is perhaps the most dangerous. However, I am yet to hear a good argument why I should rule out spanking my children altogether.



I don't believe children are to be seen and not heard, just like I don't believe women are to be seen and not heard. Children should be polite and respectful, but never forced to be silent.

I couldn't agree more. Kids are meant to have fun, and if they make a little noise (which is usually inevitable), those who love them are hardly going to be bothered by it. On the other hand, kids who make noise out of disrespect for the rights of others somehow need to learn respect. Perhaps the best way to teach kids how to respect is to be an example. If the respect in a child is lacking, it is perhaps more because it is lacking in the parents, although that is a gross generalisation.


I do agree that there are situations in which children are thrown too much in to "extra-curriculars" to the point where it interferes with their education, but I do think that it's important for a child to have hobbies, it's a sad life if you don't have something that you enjoy.

Agreed. The problem seems to be only when people over-do it, although it can be a fine line at times.


My life is highly involved with my children, I spend 24 hours a day with them most days, I don't believe that I have had to give up any of my own personality to do so. My life revolves around my role as a wife and a mother, but guess what? I am still me. Someone who can't be in a relationship, or have children and still be themselves has a problem, and it's not anyone's fault but their own.


Sounds like a healthy attitude to me. And I wouldn't be surprised if your children turn out to be your best friends (if they are not already).


There is a ton of junk psychology out there, I tend to not pay attention to most of it.

I don't look down on people without children, I do look down on people who say they "hate kids", they are sick people indeed.*


Anyone who hates a child for being a child is indeed a sick person. They have an advanced case of a terrible disease (that we all suffer from) called selfishness.


*I have to clarify that there is a huge difference between "I don't like to be around kids", "I don't want any kids", "I don't like being around young children" , and "I don't like brats"... none of those qualify as "I hate kids", in fact most of those are quite normal (or within nomal ranges)

Intelligent clarification. Who can live with a spoiled brat in an adult's body (for example)?

Well, funny you should ask. I work for a non-profit program that serves first-time parents in the area that would be considered at-risk for child abuse. Compared to the shit I see, I am overjoyed when I see parents who

- discipline appropriately (which means setting limits and enforcing them consistently without spanking, beating, screaming, or calling the child demeaning names)

and

- pay attention to their children and show them respect (which means giving them quality time and not just buying them things, and not ignoring them day in and day out).

As for raising children too soft, what the hell do you care? Raise your children (if you have any, which I doubt) and leave the rest of the world alone. Unless you suspect child abuse or neglect, in which case please meddle by calling child protective services or whatever the organization is called in your area.

But don't you think there is a way to spank without teaching these three things? I think you would agree that discipline is necessary, and that spanking is to be the last sensible form of discipline to use, but I can't help thinking that some forms of currently popular discipline, like isolating a child in his or her room for an hour or so are quite a good way to teach a child that it is bad to be alone (when being alone is actually not such a bad thing). Another form of discipline is missing out on sweets after dinner, and so the child may grow up over-indulging in sweets at any given chance. When I think about it, any discipline has the potential to teach the wrong lesson, not just spanking.

My own dad was a physically violent person, and I'm pretty much the opposite, and yet some little bell of caution 'clangs' every time someone comes out with an extreme, like 'spanking is always wrong', or 'spanking is the best form of discipline'. Personally, I say that spanking should be the last resort, since the potentially bad lessons a child can learn from it is perhaps the most dangerous. However, I am yet to hear a good argument why I should rule out spanking my children altogether.

small children are unable to understand or even comprehend that someone who loves them would hurt them. Older children tend to view life as an 'us vs. them' type of thing when you are physically violent to your child it doesn't ever teach them anything good. I grew up being spanked, and abused, and what I learned was not to get caught. I grew up with a fear of punishment, not a respect for rules. I don't want my kids to be afraid of me, that's no way to raise a child.


My children don't really get punished much, they are rewarded for good behavior though. If they want to watch TV, play on the computer, or go somewhere fun they have to earn it through doing their chores, being respectful, and generally being productive citizens. If they screw up, they know it's their own fault, and they aren't allowed those luxuries (which doesn't happen often at all). The only time they have a "time out" is when they are too angry to talk to me with respect, and it's not that they are in trouble, but that they are given time to gather their thoughts and come back calmer and we can talk about it nicely. Even adults need those types of time outs.

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

Soft? Nahh. Each child is different. My girl is rather sensitive and yet I saw her take a nasty spill and jump right back up on what she fell off.

Spoiled? It could be argued. I don't think for all but there are some that are super spoiled as in my nephew and niece.

Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)
It's the final solution when all else fails. It does get their attention especially if it's not over used. My mom thought it instilled discipline but it only lost it's value over time.

My girl was only spanked once and with her diaper on so it really doesn't count. ;) However, the end result was that she stopped trying to run into the busy street.

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)
There are times. All the time? Hardly.

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)
As in what? Swiming? Ballet? Dance? No. School is a given and as a parent you need to make sure the kid is well rounded.

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE?

Ahh you are young and don't have kids.

Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)
Some do but most do not. Many "live" through them by trying to give them the things they didn't have.

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex?

Your thoughts & experiences?

Look down? Never seen it myself. Well, usually it happens when those without kids try and tell what should be involved with raising kids. We all have theories but once you have them; many of those theories get tossed.

"Moral breeder?"

Are you gay? Breeder is a term I usually hear them use.....

Spanking just teaches violence, fear, and law of the strongest. And it harms.

Children are human beings, and deserve respect, to be listened to. They are fragile, and must take extra care of them, to make them feel comfortable. A parent-child relationship has to be built on mutual respect and love, not on fear and force.

My thoughts exactly. I think many parents, unconsciously at least, view their children as pets that exist for their personal pleasure. They view it as their right to break in their children, to tame them like domesticated animals. While I'm well aware that children need to learn how to function in society and that does involve being aware of limits, I don't really like the attitude that views children as wild beasts to be broken.

I don't look down on people without children, I do look down on people who say they "hate kids", they are sick people indeed.*

*I have to clarify that there is a huge difference between "I don't like to be around kids", "I don't want any kids", "I don't like being around young children" , and "I don't like brats"... none of those qualify as "I hate kids", in fact most of those are quite normal (or within nomal ranges)
I don't understand the difference? Especially between "I hate kids" and "I don't like brats"; "Brats" and "kids" are synonyms?

I think they should have been eaten at birth.

What are your feelings on Children today?

Simply delicious.

Despite what's been said in this thread, I think a lot of people still see childfree people as subhuman or something. Especially when the childfree person is, like me, a female - obviously, a woman's role is to take care of the lovely little baby, isn't it? She must be a monster if she doesn't like children! People seem to think you'll change your mind, or that you don't really feel that way. Well, I really do feel that way, and will have my tubes tied as soon as the NHS will do it for me.

Undelia summed up my feelings on this subject quite nicely.

i think people need to talk to their kids and not ever raise their voice to them. by yelling at a kid you are teaching them to yell and they will yell at someone else. we need to extract all the violence we can at a young age.

parents also need to give their children more privacy. they are humans and deserve the same rights as an adult

I don't understand the difference? Especially between "I hate kids" and "I don't like brats"; "Brats" and "kids" are synonyms?
you obviously have not met my children.

Despite what's been said in this thread, I think a lot of people still see childfree people as subhuman or something.
But on the bright side, whilst we're child-free and enjoying our lives, their spawn are destroying theirs.
In a situation like that, who cares what they think of us? :)

you obviously have not met my children.
Nope... But we do live over three thousand miles apart. It's fairly unlikely we'll run into each other in the supermarket.

Do you advocate spanking? What exactly do you hope to achieve by this?

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? And would you want someone looking at you 24:7?

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? Ehh... whatever

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE? you know, parents have always done that. I think it's got something to do with kids actually being able to live carefree lives and thus being more attractive than adult lives

Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? junk psychology has existed forever

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex? are there parents who do this?

Your thoughts & experiences?

response in italics. Am I stupid or something? I'm changing it to bold!

Nope... But we do live over three thousand miles apart. It's fairly unlikely we'll run into each other in the supermarket.
true. However if you did see them in the supermarket I doubt you would notice them, you would probably have your attention on the brat on the next isle whining about not getting the sugar cereal he doesn't like just because it's got a toy in it.

Spanking just teaches violence, fear, and law of the strongest. And it harms.

Children are human beings, and deserve respect, to be listened to. They are fragile, and must take extra care of them, to make them feel comfortable. A parent-child relationship has to be built on mutual respect and love, not on fear and force.
So spanking teaches one about the real world?


Personally I think as long as the parents don't go overboard with spanking it can be an effective tool for maintaining discipline.

So spanking teaches one about the real world?


Personally I think as long as the parents don't go overboard with spanking it can be an effective tool for maintaining discipline.
ah, but in my mind spankings aren't discipline, but punishment. I don't want to be the police officer, having to "keep my kids in line" by force, I want my children to learn self discipline, only then will they be functioning adults. I am there to guide, not to guard. My children are responsible for their own actions, and the consequences that follow. Discipline is a learned trait, not something handed out by parents.

but then I could be a big hippie. :cool:

Despite what's been said in this thread, I think a lot of people still see childfree people as subhuman or something. Especially when the childfree person is, like me, a female - obviously, a woman's role is to take care of the lovely little baby, isn't it? She must be a monster if she doesn't like children! People seem to think you'll change your mind, or that you don't really feel that way. Well, I really do feel that way, and will have my tubes tied as soon as the NHS will do it for me.

Undelia summed up my feelings on this subject quite nicely.
how old do you have to be before you can get the surgery? what kind of hoops do they make you jump through these days?

anyway

i do think its a kind of jealousy on the part of people who have kids. even though im a mom and i dont wish my son away, there are days when the job sucks. the dream of a life where you are responsible only for yourself and your own future is extremely tempting. one sometimes longs for the unique benefits of a childless life

its a litt le nutz to suggest that you cant have a great life without kids. life is what you make of it and kids arent a necessary component.

So spanking teaches one about the real world?


Personally I think as long as the parents don't go overboard with spanking it can be an effective tool for maintaining discipline.

spanking should never be used. spanking will only put violence in the child and the child will later spread the violence. if you dont give the child violence the child wont have any violence to spread

What are your feelings on Children today?
I hate children with a passion. The fewer of them people have, the better. 'Nuff said.

Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?
Yes and yes. The way parents are raising kids today leads to repression, depression, and the awful subcultures dominating high school life. And giving kids everything can only lead to overprotected and "softie" kids.


Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)

And more. There have been plenty of occasions on which I severely wanted to whip an unruly child. Like all things however, it is best in moderation.

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)

Not necessarily. Children can give valuable insights and hold their own in conversations, provided that they're brought up correctly in a severe 19th-century fashion. Otherwise they become too apathetic.

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)

Yes.

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE?

That is the most annoying subculture ever. I want to perform horrific actions to all such parents.

Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)
Probably, yeah...

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex?
I have parents like that.

"That's something you can tell your kids about."
"Yeah, but I'm not going to have any kids."
"Sure, that's what you say now."
"It's also what I'll say in 10 years."
"When I was your age <insert huge story here>. Besides, you're only 16, you aren't supposed to want any kids yet."
"*sigh* I'm old enough to know what I do and do not want. I don't want screaming toddlers, sadistic grade schoolers, or bratty teenagers, and kids are going to go through all of those stages."
"Fine. We'll see when you're older."

That's when I pull out my knife and stab them 36 times in the throat.

spanking should never be used. spanking will only put violence in the child and the child will later spread the violence. if you dont give the child violence the child wont have any violence to spread
Violence is innate in human nature. Except for parents who seriously abuse their child, the effect of parenting is miniscule compared to the effects of genetics and peer relationships for determining what kind of adult the child will grow up to be.

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)

No, don't be silly. They shouldn't be seen either. :p

true. However if you did see them in the supermarket I doubt you would notice them, you would probably have your attention on the brat on the next isle whining about not getting the sugar cereal he doesn't like just because it's got a toy in it.
They're always the children you notice... If all children were quiet, well behaved, and didn't get in the way unnecessarily they wouldn't have such a bad reputation.
Sadly not even all adults can manage it...

They're always the children you notice... If all children were quiet, well behaved, and didn't get in the way unnecessarily they wouldn't have such a bad reputation.
Sadly not even all adults can manage it...

I was always well-behaved... Still got blamed for things though.

You know what's wrong at the moment? This 'chav-culture' (at least in the UK). It's basically creating a load of criminals.

Violence is innate in human nature. Except for parents who seriously abuse their child, the effect of parenting is miniscule compared to the effects of genetics and peer relationships for determining what kind of adult the child will grow up to be.

no it isnt. you are taught violence. you accept violence. and you share violence

Violence is innate in human nature. Except for parents who seriously abuse their child, the effect of parenting is miniscule compared to the effects of genetics and peer relationships for determining what kind of adult the child will grow up to be.
The relationship you have with your parents is your first and some say most important, it colors how you feel about yourself, your worth and others for the rest of your life. I don't think that teaching your children that physical violence is a normal part of a healthy relationship is doing anyone any favors.

The problem with many kids today, is that parents undervalue the role they actually do have in their child's development both intellectually and emotionally. I can't even count how many times I have heard from parents "I don't have to teach them that stuff, that's why I will send them to school" or "It doesn't matter what I say anyway, they are going to do whatevery their friends say". Such apathy and laziness in a parent disgusts me, and it also makes me worry about the next generation of adults. :(

No, don't be silly. They shouldn't be seen either. :p
Exactly. We should keep them locked up in pens like the wild animals they are.

Children should be put down at birth. (Except those bred for food )

how old do you have to be before you can get the surgery? what kind of hoops do they make you jump through these days?You have to be 25 before they'll consider doing it through the health service. At that point, unless you have several children already (and maybe even then), you have to see counsellors etc and convince them you really don't want any (more) children.

You can get it done privately before you're 25, but again you have to go through the counselling. Also it costs a lot of money - about £900 - which I wouldn't be willing to pay since in a few years I can get it free (I'm nearly 23).

I do understand why they make you see a counsellor and why the NHS won't do it under a certain age - I'm sure some people do change their minds. However, I do find the assumption that people under 25 can't make long-term decisions a tad patronising.

its a litt le nutz to suggest that you cant have a great life without kids. life is what you make of it and kids arent a necessary component.Agreed.

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)

No. If you were doing your job as parent (and I have five children), you woulnd't have to spank. It's not nearly as effective as you think, and other methods that are pure talk and incentive are much more effective.

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)
No. Certainly, they should learn to respect one another during conversation, or at solemn times, but silent children are not natural.

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)
This is only a problem with a few parents in the US - not with everyone.

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE?
They are called "parents". Sure, you can overdo it to the exclusion of yourself, but most people don't take it that far. But you do have an obligation to the ones you created - it's not like a job you can quit. Though in your case, I bet your kids would be better off with someone else as a parent.

Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)
This is an old problem, and once again, only with a few parents.

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex?
Haven't met any parents who look down upon the childless. Go figure.

Your thoughts & experiences?
If you don't want kids, you have been to enough sex ed classes to know how to prevent them from springing into existence. In fact, the best thing you could do is have yourself surgically sterilized - then you wouldn't have anything to worry about.

Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations? Yes, parents, in large numbers(not all nor the majority), are teaching their kids that resposibility is not real.

Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)Yes and no. After a certain age it is proven in several studies that I read/watched about that kids who are spanked after like age 5+ on a regular basis are more prone to violent reactions. no I'm not providing any links. Get off your ass and do it yourself if you guys want to too bad.
I have had personal experience on this issue. ALL my friends that were spanked after about 5 or so are more aggressive(in the bad way) in comparison to the friends that weren't spanked at all or were only spanked untill a young age. Beleive it or not. Don't flame me about it.
If used sparingly(very) that it can be a useful tool. But when used for everyday issues like talking back or not cleaning your room it becomes abuse in my mind. Also the kids become desensitied to it. I feel that is becomes and outlet for the parents to vent their anger ont the child which is WRONG!!!
My parents raised me in the 'before age 5' manner. When I would do something dangerous they would spank me. They would send me to a corner for everything else. After about 5 or so it was grounding and the corner. GOD I hated that corner! But I'm a very good person now thanks to my parents. I obay the law, I'm respectfull to everyone untill they give me a reason not to. I was disaplined from a young age but I was also respected as a person and they would listen when I would speak.
A lot of problems kids have now is that their parents didn't disapline them when they were young on the 'little' stuff. That is were kids learn these behaviours.
I feel very strongly on this subject.

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)
Absolutly not! Out in public they should be respectful to others around them but should NOT be silent.
At home, kids are loud, get used to it! They have 100 times more energy than adults and they have to vent somehow. It is the responsibility of the parent to make sure they do it safely.

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO) NO!!! Those keep kids from sitting at home getting high. PLUS, it uses a lot of there energy and they sleep better.( I know that seems random but there it is.)

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE? Some people are happy to do that. Leave them be if it isn't hurting anybody.

Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO) YES!!! The poor kids can't be themselves.

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex? This feels like the opposite as the statement about the kiddie culture. But, YES I do get that feeling. I'm not sure why but I do get it from parents.

I'll probably add more later because I have to get back to class. Edit coming soon...

I don't look down on people without children, I do look down on people who say they "hate kids", they are sick people indeed.*


*I have to clarify that there is a huge difference between "I don't like to be around kids", "I don't want any kids", "I don't like being around young children" , and "I don't like brats"... none of those qualify as "I hate kids", in fact most of those are quite normal (or within nomal ranges)

:rolleyes: Nowhere in my original post di I say I HAD any children, nor did I say I HATED children. I just choose not to have them. Try to improve your comprehension skills....:rolleyes:

My beef is not with CHILDREN bit with the PARENTS who do a poor job of raising them, then blame society for their BRATS negative behavior. Children are a mirror of their parents, and when I see a 9 year old screaming in public and smacking his mother because he cna't have what he wants, it makes me want to smack that parent for being a failure. You can't argue with that.

When you see kids who are bullies in school, what do you think? What kind of parents are raising this kid? Are his parents abusive and is he just acting out of frustration, or is he an over indulged baby that gets what he wants all the time and thinks he can get away with anything? The answer is most likey YES to both. Parents are the problem, not the kids. More children are victims of BAD PARENTING than abuse. You can't argue with that either.

I think kids today need a swift kick to their backsides. And military school.

I agree. Parents are sissies now. With the whole time-outs and compromising. A smack upside the head does wonders. My dad never lost sleep over hitting me if I did something wrong. Now, he never hit me without reason.

What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE?

Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)

What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex?

Your thoughts & experiences?

I advocate spanking under certain circumstances, but it must be administered rarely, dispassionately and without anger. If you spank when you're angry you run the risk of physical abuse. Spanking must also be a last resort, used only when all other forms of discipline have failed.

Children should be heard, teaching someone that they cannot express an opinion or have a voice is dangerous. That said, they should be taught to be courteous, to not interrupt, to express their opinions reasonably and to be silent while others are expressing their opinions.

Many years ago, when children were expected to work, extra-curricular activities were unnecessary. Now, children are a great leisure class, if they aren't engaged in constructive activity, they will get into trouble.

There have always been parents who live vicariously through their kids, it's not just the current generation of parents. We want our children to do better than we did and when they achieve good things, we're justifiably proud of them - some parents do take this too far and try to live their children's lives for them.

I don't look down on people who don't have children. That's a choice you make. I do resent people who've never had children trying to tell me how to be a parent. You don't know the pressures, and you don't know the joys, you just know that some people's children annoy you. They annoy me, too. Especially when they're talking of things about which they have little or no knowledge.

Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.
- Socrates, (469 BC - 399 BC)

I agree

The parenting section of the book "Freakonomics", by Steven Levitt, has some interesting (IF it is true, of course) data:


-Spanking, contrary to conventional wisdom, does not significantly affect grades

-Bad birth names( like Shaquena or something) are not a cause of social problems, they are a symptom of their parents education levels

-Genes are the single biggest factor in a childs development-if a child from a family of drug users is put up for adoption at birth, even if he is adopted by the best family he could have, he still has a higher than average chance of becoming a criminal

Older parents= better raising

Low birth weight babies have a higher chance of doing poorly in school

Extracurricular educational activities(like the head start program, or even going regularly to a museum) do not significantly affect grades


ect ect

Source:"Freakonomics" by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner. Copyright 2005. pages(on hardback, HarperCollins puplishing inc. book) 148-176

I learned self-reliance from my parents.

:rolleyes: Nowhere in my original post di I say I HAD any children, nor did I say I HATED children. I just choose not to have them. Try to improve your comprehension skills....:rolleyes:

My beef is not with CHILDREN bit with the PARENTS who do a poor job of raising them, then blame society for their BRATS negative behavior. Children are a mirror of their parents, and when I see a 9 year old screaming in public and smacking his mother because he cna't have what he wants, it makes me want to smack that parent for being a failure. You can't argue with that.

When you see kids who are bullies in school, what do you think? What kind of parents are raising this kid? Are his parents abusive and is he just acting out of frustration, or is he an over indulged baby that gets what he wants all the time and thinks he can get away with anything? The answer is most likey YES to both. Parents are the problem, not the kids. More children are victims of BAD PARENTING than abuse. You can't argue with that either.

maybe you should work on your comprehension skills, I didn't say you had children, I said I would feel sorry for your kids, if you ever did have any (see future tense) also, I didn't say that you hated children, I said that I don't look down on people who don't have children, only on people who hate them for no other reason then they are a child. (but, if the shoe fits)

I can argue that abuse is subjective and that teaching your child that they are to be "seen and not heard" is intellectual abuse, and that spanking them is emotional abuse, and also sometimes is physical abuse.

I do agree that bad parenting for the most part leads to bad kids, but knowing that you don't actually have kids (which btw I could tell by your tone in the OP) you probably don't have much constructive to say about it, and in fact due to your defensive tone then and now you are probably just wanting to bitch about it and expect everyone to agree with all the crap that comes spewing out of your mouth, and buddy, I am not the girl that's going to do that.

People seem to think you'll change your mind, or that you don't really feel that way. Well, I really do feel that way, and will have my tubes tied as soon as the NHS will do it for me.

Oh yeah, good lord. I told my mother I didn't want children, and she acted like I said I wanted to have my leg amputated. She thought maybe somebody brainwashed me or something. This was her reasoning for why I should have children:

- I will love them a lot when I have them

- if you don't have children, you won't have any friends because everybody else will have children and you won't fit into the social strata

That was really all she could say about that...I won't go into the list of reasons she had for me not wanting children in the first place (it had a lot to do with me being immature and hanging out with immature people).

I rate it as one of the Top Ten Most Annoying Discussions.

In this fourm I have heard a LOT of people spewing out vile remarks that sounded like they came from the 50's. To me the main problem people have is that they don't look at it from the CHILDS POINT OF VEIW. Now as a person not that far out of childhood I'd like to help sort out some missconseptions.

1. I don't care what the studies have shown, if my parents had spanked me I would have HATED them for it and become more rebellious.
2. Children MUST be seen as well as heard, if not (and no offence to anyone whose parents were like that) how will they ever grow? Children who are hit for questioning the world around them will just stop wanting to know things and become stupid.
3. Extra-Curricular activities are great. They build freindships, teach skills, allow the kids to have fun away from the house in a safe enviornment, keep them out of trouble, and if you hate your kids so much a way to get them away from you.
4. The people who litteraly live through their kids most likely have issues dateing back to THEIR childhood. Probably stemming from when their parents hit them and tod them they wern't good enough for their dream.
5. Kids MUST be shown respect, if you don't they won't know what respect is.
6. That little "Freakonomics" thing is crap. Extracurricular educational activities WILL help you kids by stimulating a want to learn. And it constantly talks about how kids with 'bad genes' are destined to do poorly, more crap, anyone can do well given the chance.

The parenting section of the book "Freakonomics", by Steven Levitt, has some interesting (IF it is true, of course) data:


-Spanking, contrary to conventional wisdom, does not significantly affect grades

-Bad birth names( like Shaquena or something) are not a cause of social problems, they are a symptom of their parents education levels

-Genes are the single biggest factor in a childs development-if a child from a family of drug users is put up for adoption at birth, even if he is adopted by the best family he could have, he still has a higher than average chance of becoming a criminal

Older parents= better raising

Low birth weight babies have a higher chance of doing poorly in school

Extracurricular educational activities(like the head start program, or even going regularly to a museum) do not significantly affect grades


ect ect

Source:"Freakonomics" by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner. Copyright 2005. pages(on hardback, HarperCollins puplishing inc. book) 148-176

wow. I can agree with 2 points, maybe 3, but I'm not saying which.

I hate children. They think they have the world eating out of the palm of their hands. Well guess what punks! YOU LOSE!

A vein in my neck is throbbing now.

Bunch of punks.Smartarses and should get a kickup the backside.

I rate it as one of the Top Ten Most Annoying Discussions.Oh, I hear you. Been through it 100s of times with several people. I think my mother has finally accepted the situation, but it angers her that she will never have grandchildren (I'm an only child). I've told her if she's so keen on fussing around babies at her age then she can foster or adopt or something...it's hardly my problem!

My aunts/uncles, cousins, colleagues, even some friends who ought to know better by now still harp on with the discussions such as you describe. It incenses me! They know they want(ed) to have children, why can't they accept I know that I don't?

Oh well, if I end up a social pariah to these people, I will be proud to be one ;)

1. What are your feelings on Children today? Do you think people are raising their kids "too soft"? Do you believe children today are more spoiled than in previous generations?

2. Do you advocate spanking? (I DO)

3. Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"? (I DO)

4. Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities? (I DO)

5. What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into? "Kiddie Culture" meaning parents whos lives REVOLVE around their brats, who do nothing but talk about and plan their lives around their kids, completely losing their identities as PEOPLE?

6. Is there too much junk psychology out there? Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids? (I THINK SO)

7. What about parents who look down upon people without kids? Is this jealousy and yearning for the days of freedom? or moral breeder superiority complex?

Your thoughts & experiences?
1. From what I see, there's considerable divergence between parents who coddle their children way too much, and parents who don't seem to give a shit about their kids. Fortunately, most children are resilient enough to overcome either one.

2. Only as a last resort, and only very mild swats, when the child is totally out of control or when valuable property is on the verge of being destroyed. Some parents are way too quick to spank, and sometimes way too hard. :(

3. No. A child should be raised based upon the child's personality. Those who want to participate in conversation should be encouraged to do so, those who don't want to participate should not be forced to.

4. In some cases, yes. Skill development is dependent upon interest, yes, but it's also dependent upon focus and intensity. Encouraging a child to participate in too many things at once can blur focus and diminish intensity. A parent should know their child ( children ) well enough to know what activities would mesh well with the child's talents and interests.

5. A "child-centered home" is, IMHO, a good thing, but even this can be taken too far. Parents whose entire lives are wrapped up in their children tend to hang on too long and retard the child's attempts to mature, and will eventually cause the child to either rebell or become subservient.

6. Yes, there's WAY too much junk psychology out there, most of it by people who have never had to raise a child. Parents who live vicariously through their children are condeming themselves to heartache, as well as potentially retarding their child's growth.

7. That's just stupid. People who elect to not have children are doing what they think best. It's no one else's business. Besides, if they don't want children, having them would probably damage the child anyway.

Oh yeah, good lord. I told my mother I didn't want children, and she acted like I said I wanted to have my leg amputated. She thought maybe somebody brainwashed me or something. This was her reasoning for why I should have children:

- I will love them a lot when I have them

- if you don't have children, you won't have any friends because everybody else will have children and you won't fit into the social strata

That was really all she could say about that...I won't go into the list of reasons she had for me not wanting children in the first place (it had a lot to do with me being immature and hanging out with immature people).

I rate it as one of the Top Ten Most Annoying Discussions.
Agreed, in full. But what's worse is that no-one takes me seriously when I say that because I'm "under 18".

Well guess what, people. Sometimes teenagers also know what they want from life! You don't have to be an adult to know that you hate children and you're ethically opposed to marriage. Shocking revelation, isn't it? ¬_¬

I seriously believe many people should eat their young.

I do agree that bad parenting for the most part leads to bad kids, but knowing that you don't actually have kids (which btw I could tell by your tone in the OP) you probably don't have much constructive to say about it, and in fact due to your defensive tone then and now you are probably just wanting to bitch about it and expect everyone to agree with all the crap that comes spewing out of your mouth, and buddy, I am not the girl that's going to do that.

As I am not a parent I am in no way telling anyone how to raise their kids, since I am not qualified to do so. The whole point was to get other peoples OPINIONS on the matter. I don't expect people to agree with me, we are all entitled to our own opinions. The only crap I see is the one coming from YOUR mouth, stemming from serous lack of comprehension skills, again, go back to school and learn how to read. That is, if your brats will let you...:upyours:

[QUOTE=Cerebration]:snip: (I agreed with everything else)
6. That little "Freakonomics" thing is crap. Extracurricular educational activities WILL help you kids by stimulating a want to learn. QUOTE]
I do happen to agree with the "Freakonomics" thing. There isn't a real link between extracuricular activities and grades. BUT the kids are emotionally happier and healthier. Those activities keep them busy when the parents aren't there. And teach them important skills needed in later life. That is were you learn leadership and teamwork.
In my personal experience I would have quit school if it weren't for my band and drama. That is what my world revolved around in school. I think every child should be required to take an extacurricular activity. Wether it be sports, band, basket weaving...anything.
While it didn't really help my grades(except in math...band and counting you know...) it taught me how to be responsible, a teamplayer, and a leader.
It has been my exerience at my school that those students that were in extracurricular activities ended up more successful later in their lives. While those without those activities either dropped out of high school or college and sadly most of those people have ended up working at walmart...*shivers*
But that was just my personal experience.

As I am not a parent I am in no way telling anyone how to raise their kids, since I am not qualified to do so. The whole point was to get other peoples OPINIONS on the matter. I don't expect people to agree with me, we are all entitled to our own opinions. The only crap I see is the one coming from YOUR mouth, stemming from serous lack of comprehension skills, again, go back to school and learn how to read. That is, if your brats will let you...:upyours:
I am not the one using the mean smileys. I have explained to you that I don't have anything against you, yet you still act like you are all pissed off at me for expressing my own opinion (which you claim that I am entitled to)


I assure you that I can read, and I comprehend quite well. I know exactly what you are about and I think it bothers you.

I hate kids. They’re simply annoying. Everything about them, their lack of knowledge, their impropriety, the crying in the movie theatre, the lack of hygiene and thus penchant for spreading disease, the kicking your seat on an airplane, the ways they talk and most importantly the policies the government puts in place to protect their “innocence.”
I fucking hate how we always have to be “thinking of the children.” Disgusting.


My children 6 and 3 don't cry in the 'movie theatre' (cinema); have good hygeine, don't spread disease; certainly don't kick seats on airplanes (aeroplanes) or buses or anywhere; they can talk appropriately and engagingly to adults and other children.
In fact I would say my children are more civilised than you, as they have more social graces than you.
Swearing when writing is so common.

Spanking just teaches violence, fear, and law of the strongest. And it harms.

Children are human beings, and deserve respect, to be listened to. They are fragile, and must take extra care of them, to make them feel comfortable. A parent-child relationship has to be built on mutual respect and love, not on fear and force.


Yeah! If kids are gonna get treated mean, why even have parents? Spanking is also barbaric.

I agree. Parents are sissies now. With the whole time-outs and compromising. A smack upside the head does wonders. My dad never lost sleep over hitting me if I did something wrong. Now, he never hit me without reason.


Oh sure. My parents always had a good reason for beating the crap out of me, too. Some of my favorites were "You deserved that" "Next time, I'll kill you", and "You know why I did that? Think about it, see if you can figure it out, you worthless piece of sh-t" I hope to God that if you think "A smack upside the head does wonders" that you do not now nor ever will have children. Anyone who thinks like that does not deserve to be a parent.

Oh sure. My parents always had a good reason for beating the crap out of me, too. Some of my favorites were "You deserved that" "Next time, I'll kill you", and "You know why I did that? Think about it, see if you can figure it out, you worthless piece of sh-t" I hope to God that if you think "A smack upside the head does wonders" that you do not now nor ever will have children. Anyone who thinks like that does not deserve to be a parent.
yeah, I was wondering if I am so "anti-spanking" because I got the crap beat out of me as a child.

yeah, I was wondering if I am so "anti-spanking" because I got the crap beat out of me as a child.


I don't know about you, dear, but that's certainly why I'm against it. I'd sooner shoot myself than ever raise my hand to a child.

I don't know about you, dear, but that's certainly why I'm against it. I'd sooner shoot myself than ever raise my hand to a child.
yeah, I remember growing up with that fear, that they really would kill me....

I don't want my kids to grow up with any measure of that, nor do I want them to equate love with abuse. (which I did for a while and it nearly did kill me)

yeah, I remember growing up with that fear, that they really would kill me....

I don't want my kids to grow up with any measure of that, nor do I want them to equate love with abuse. (which I did for a while and it nearly did kill me)


I'm going to kill you, you little SOB, and I'll go to jail for it and rot in Hell, but I'll be happy because you'll be dead.

That was probably her best one.

That was probably her best one.
i dont have words to express how horrifying that is.

no child should be treated that way. you have amazing strength to have come as far as you have.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a parent, that I never intend to be, and that I do get irritated by the antics of some other people's children. For example, I cannot stand children's random tantrums in retail outlets, particularly where parents make no attempt to control the child.

I do think that it's parents that we have to blame for children's poor behaviour. Not all parents. Not even necessarily most. However, it only takes a few to spoil the party.

Now on to the questions that were asked at the start of the thread...

Do you advocate spanking?
Yes, though generally as a last resort. Much better to explain to the child what it can and cannot do, and then actually enforce the rules, once explained. I despair that some parents appear unable to enforce discipline. They say one thing to their child, then do another. What sort of message does that send, and what sort of learning experience does it generate for the child, which after all is attempting to make some sort of sense of the world?

Do you think children "should be seen and not heard"?
If this refers to tantrums in public places, yes. If a child is well-behaved, I think it has every right to participate in conversation and express its views. Interaction is, after all, how it will learn. If we're talking about very young children, then they don't really have very much control, since they don't have any conception of what is 'proper' behaviour. Personally, I wish more public places kept children out, becuase screaming and wailing is pretty hard to tolerate.

Do you think there is too much emphasis on extra-curricular activities?
Everyone needs a well-rounded education. Formal teaching is, of course, essential; however there are other ways to learn. Worthwhile extra-curricular activities can be good learning experiences: the child can learn how to interact with others, how to work as part of a team, etc. That's less easily taught in a formal environment.

What about the "kiddie culture" some parents get sucked into?
Parents have to be closely involved in the lives of their children. I think this inevitably leads to some diminution of the parents' own freedom to do whatever they like, whenever they like; but many people are happy with that, as they see child-rearing as an enriching experience. Personally, I'm far too selfish and impatient to raise a child, and wouldn't enjoy 'kiddie culture' - but that is my choice, and others are entitled to their own courses of action.

Is there too much junk psychology out there?
In pretty much every walk of life, yes there is.

Do you believe some parents try to live vicariously through their kids?
Yes. A somewhat irritating trait. I suppose there's a fine line between wanting one's child to succeed and pushing it to achieve something because the parent wishes that he/she had had such an opportunity earlier in life.

What about parents who look down upon people without kids?
There is a societal assumption that one's default setting is to have kids. Relatives expect it. Friends do. Anyone who knows me, however, will be accustomed to the idea that I am not going to have children. I'm happy with that. If they are not, that's too bad.

That was probably her best one.
No offense to your existence intended, but some people really, really shouldn’t have kids.

i dont have words to express how horrifying that is.

no child should be treated that way. you have amazing strength to have come as far as you have.


Thank you, but I haven't come very far. I lived through it, but can't put it behind me and can't deal with the scars it left. I'm nearly 40 and still prisoner to my parents' torment. I'll spend the rest of my life on anti-depressants and in therapy.