NationStates Jolt Archive

Don't call me an idiot. I just think something was fishy about the whol election, especially with the chads, uncounted ballots, and such. I personally don't think he should've won.

Not really, as now he has to face the Cherokee Curse. And I doubt he will survive

The Cherokee curse?

Poor Al Gore, he would've been a good president. Of course, anything's better than Bush, including a brick.

The Cherokee curse?
You know, the Cherokee were forced to go on the trail of tears, so Chiefy dude makes a curse making every president elected on a year ending with zero die in his term of office. Been truthful with everyone except Reagan, who was almost assassinated.

Yes, technically he did. The election was certified and Bush was declared winner; needless to say, if he was able to remain in office and win reelection with no one being able to build a case that he didn't win, then it's pretty much a certainty that he won.

Even so, recounts performed after the election confirmed the fact that Bush would have won regardless of how many times the ballots were counted.

Oh, okay. I may not like Bush, but I don't want him to be assasinated. If he dies, then that means Dick Cheney will be president. I shutter at the thought.

Oh, okay. I may not like Bush, but I don't want him to be assasinated. If he dies, then that means Dick Cheney will be president. I shudder at the thought.
Just doing my job as a Spelling nazi!

I was in sixth grade during the election and even then, most of us thought something was rotten. Wether there was any proof to it or not.

You're a grammar fag!

Did George Bush really win in '00
Is there anyone who believes he did?

The chads were put in by the democrats, and were the ones complaining about it. :rolleyes: Yes he won, and yes he won again.

So far it looks like 4 people think he did.

You're a grammar fag!
:eek: THE FLAMES! IT'S BURNING! IT'S ALL BURNING!

I never really understood how anybody could say he didn’t.
He didn’t win the popular vote, but that’s happened in this country before. He won according to the laws of this nation, which isn't saying much.

Burn!!! hahahahaha!!! :D

I'm saying he did. The winner of an election is the one who becomes President. By whatever means he did, legal or illegal, Bush took the presidency. Thus, he won.

Whether or not he would have won were he playing by the books is, of course, another matter altogether.

Then he didn't win, he took it.

Then he didn't win, he took it.
Taking it is still winning. Just not fairly.

Bush won, and anyone who claims they invented the internet does not deserve any office.

man these threads crack me up...i mean, is there anyone on this particular thread who follows politics or was even old enough to vote in that election other than me?...yeah i voted for bush, twice actually...im a registered independent b/c i dont want to be associated with either major party, i vote for who i feel i think most closely to...to be honest, im very unhappy with the majority of the things bush has done, but in hindsight, i would not change my vote...im fairly certain that had gore won, the world would no longer be here, he was as unfit and ridiculous candidate for president that ive ever seen...have you seen the guy now, he went nuts in case you havent...look him up on the net, he went crazy...and john kerry was probably the scariest candidate we've had in quite awhile...i would've voted for frankenstein before kerry b/c frankly, the monster scares me less...kerry didnt have, and still does not have, ANY definate opinion on ANY subject...the man flops around and changes his opinion more than he changes his underwear...say what you want about bush, he has done some stupid things, but he does what he says he going to do...i just wish that he would listen to the people around him a little bit more:headbang:

Don't call me an idiot. I just think something was fishy about the whol election, especially with the chads, uncounted ballots, and such. I personally don't think he should've won.
Sour grapes don't become fine wines over time.

They become vinegar.

The right man won in '00. Time you people finally grew up and faced life off-campus for once.

Has anyone seen the segment on the Daily Show called "The Decider"? It cracks me up!

I'm just expressing my opinion, besides, I'm not in college

Which makes you even less educated... Meaning you likely don't know much about current politics except what you hear from your parents and people around you. Not necesarily bad, almost everyone's opinions are influenced by their parents, it just means you don't have any intelligent arguments against Bush except the typical, he looks funny and makes some linguistic mistakes.

I hear from my parents, friends, other people. I watch CNN and Fox News (though Fox News in moderation). Hell, I even watch CSPAN from time to time. I think I'm well informed, maybe not completely informed, but good enough.

I don't hate Bush, the man. I hate Bush, the president. And all the cronies he surrounds himself with. I'm not some pissant 13 year old if that's what you think. I'm 18 if that means anything.

I don't hate Bush, the man. I hate Bush, the president. And all the cronies he surrounds himself with. I'm not some pissant 13 year old if that's what you think. I'm 18 if that means anything.
Which means you had to have been 13 when our President first took office...:rolleyes:

Since then I've become well informed, even then I watched the news and such. Read books and what-have-you.

I think I'm well informed, maybe not completely informed, but good enough.
Well, in that case you know we're at War, then. The President may not be your favourite person, but that doesn't mean you ought to cloud issues by dredging up the past like you are with this thread. He is our President, and at a time of War, we must be willing to put aside our partisan politics and give him the full support he needs so we can maintain our way of life.

Well, in that case you know we're at War, then. The President may not be your favourite person, but that doesn't mean you ought to cloud issues by dredging up the past like you are with this thread. He is our President, and at a time of War, we must be willing to put aside our partisan politics and give him the full support he needs so we can maintain our way of life.

What? Why, exactly? You should be questioning his motives, his actions, everything he does. A democratic society must do this, or you just get blind nationalism and patriotism without any questioning as to why you're in the situation.

What? Why, exactly? You should be questioning his motives, his actions, everything he does. A democratic society must do this, or you just get blind nationalism and patriotism without any questioning as to why you're in the situation.
Look, i think it's pretty obvious you're not interested in maintaining the American way of life, so let's just drop it. This is why I support President Bush; because I still believe in a strong nation. If you show the slightest weakness, if you allow too much questioning and self-doubt, you invite catastrophe - as we saw five years ago.

You want to leave your country wide open for terror, go for it. Just don't be too surprised when all your 'questioning' and indecision leave you with a preventable tragedy (terrorist attack).

Look, i think it's pretty obvious you're not interested in maintaining the American way of life, so let's just drop it. This is why I support President Bush; because I still believe in a strong nation. If you show the slightest weakness, if you allow too much questioning and self-doubt, you invite catastrophe - as we saw five years ago.

You want to leave your country wide open for terror, go for it. Just don't be too surprised when all your 'questioning' and indecision leave you with a preventable tragedy (terrorist attack).

We have been attacked, actually. Of course you woudn't know that, it being outside the US borders. A strong nation allows questioning, it allows criticism. Indeed, I would state that it is a weak nation that does not ish to question, because it does not wish to find out the truth of the matter. It was not questioning and self-doubt that led to 9/11; it can be seen as the result of decades of US imperialism and the tail-end of the Cold War.

If you do not question, your nation will ultimately fall.

Let's establish a few things here.

--The butterfly ballots put in use in Palm Beach County were ILLEGAL. I don't care who put them into use. People say it was the Democrats; maybe it was. Maybe it was a handful of Democrats; maybe it was just that the law was too recent to be effective. Bottom line, something was wrong there.

--The margin of victory in Florida was razor-thin, counting disputed ballots or not. Therefore, every little one of those ballots counts. And it's a dirty shame there were so many ballots that were so easy to mess up.

--Why do they force people with potentially bad eyesight and bad hand-eye coordination to use those godawful ballots? I am only 23 and hanve terrible eyesight, and i have to take a second look at my ballots when I use one of those infernal devices.

--Several thousand old Jewish folks who lived through World War II are not going to vote for a man who denies the Holocaust and openly despises Jews. It's common sense. Ask any one of them and they would tell you they wanted to vote for Gore. It was the damn ballot. Which was illegal.

--Also, is it just too convenient that Jeb Bush was the governor of Florida? Not to claim conspiracy here, but come on; could this have been any more convenient?

Now, with all that in mind, I honestly don't know if Bush won. Maybe he would have won fair and square; I don't know. Or maybe Gore would have. The only honest way to do it was to vote over again in a localized runoff, but that would have been too difficult to pull off. And if that happened, I assume there would have been no third-party candidates on the ballot, although there probably should have been (since a third-party candidate winning Florida would have forced the election into the House, where Bush would have been elected BUT WITHOUT CHENEY, since the Democrats had the Senate and would likely have voted for Gore's running mate, Joe Lieberman, who, truth be told, wasn't much better than Cheney. Why he was chosen over a guy like Wesley Clark is beyond me.)

People who say "Bush won and anyone who says otherwise is a whiner who lives in their parents' basement" need to shut their yaps.

Also, what would have happened if Fox News kep their yaps shut and not called Florida for Bush? I realize that my information about Fox News being the first to call Florida for Bush comes from Fahrenheit 9/11, and Michael Moore's more liberal than me, but still, that information has to come from somewhere. Maybe nothing would have changed. But if they hold back with it and eventually see that calling Florida for Bush is insane (even if it's not,) then all the major news outlets call Florida for Gore, Bush concedes, and the Democrats keep the White House. 9/11 still happens, Gore kicks out the Taliban and does whatever with it, and we're probably not in Iraq...the federal government probably stays the hell out of the marriage debate, since it's unfeasible to get involved in it (maybe Lieberman tries to involve himself on the side of the evangelists, but nothing comes of it.) I don't know what he would have based his Presidency off of, though with no Iraq, he likely gets re-elected provided the Republicans throw another Bob Dole at him in 2004.

We have been attacked, actually. Of course you woudn't know that, it being outside the US borders. A strong nation allows questioning, it allows criticism. Indeed, I would state that it is a weak nation that does not ish to question, because it does not wish to find out the truth of the matter. It was not questioning and self-doubt that led to 9/11; it can be seen as the result of decades of US imperialism and the tail-end of the Cold War.

If you do not question, your nation will ultimately fall.
In your opinion. The opinion of a foreigner and a liberal. I am unmoved.

Poor Al Gore, he would've been a good president. Of course, anything's better than Bush, including a brick.

I just imagined a brick for a president. I'm sure a brick could bring on world peace.

And I always thought Gore would've done a better job as president. I wonder how he might've handled 9/11.

In your opinion. The opinion of a foreigner and a liberal. I am unmoved.

As opposed to what, the opinion of a resident and conservative? Both have to be taken with a grain of salt, as both are nothing but labels. If you rely on and use labels to extent, your opinion becomes useless and tainted with bias.

You have the idea of what an "american way of life" is... what is it? There is no 'way' of life - life is everything. America is no exception. Only in the most conservative, bible belt, white christian areas of america is life lived in just one simple way - every other area of the nation lives as each individual wants to live, just as it should be. The fact that you think there is a singular way of life to begin with denotes that your opinion and way of thinking are flawed, and both should therefore be ignored.

Bush "technically" won, but had the election not be tampered with by Jeb Bush, he would not have. Between voter intimidation (roadblocks and such set up in areas that were known to be highly liberal in Florida) and the distorted "felons" list, which listed a number of African Americans who were not felons as felons, It's fairly obvious that the small vote margin in Florida WAS tampered with, and that Al Gore would have likely won the state, were it not for Jeb and/or Katherine Harris.

Look, i think it's pretty obvious you're not interested in maintaining the American way of life, so let's just drop it. This is why I support President Bush; because I still believe in a strong nation. If you show the slightest weakness, if you allow too much questioning and self-doubt, you invite catastrophe - as we saw five years ago.

You want to leave your country wide open for terror, go for it. Just don't be too surprised when all your 'questioning' and indecision leave you with a preventable tragedy (terrorist attack).

Awww is teh poor Quibblyville afwaid of teh big bad tewwowist? OHNOES a twagedy!!!! RUN ITS TEH LIBERALZ AN TERISTS! :fluffle:

I don't care if he did or not. He proved exactly what kind of a President he'd make when he showed in the 2000 election that he cared more for becoming President than he did for making sure that the people's votes were accurately recorded and counted.

Bush "technically" won, but had the election not be tampered with by Jeb Bush, he would not have. Between voter intimidation (roadblocks and such set up in areas that were known to be highly liberal in Florida) and the distorted "felons" list, which listed a number of African Americans who were not felons as felons, It's fairly obvious that the small vote margin in Florida WAS tampered with, and that Al Gore would have likely won the state, were it not for Jeb and/or Katherine Harris.

i love how when people done get what they want, especially in a situation like this one, they will come up with every possible reason and every possible conspiracy theory to try and explain what happened...WAKE THE HELL UP!!!!...the only thing that happened was the person you wanted to win didn't...its like blaming the refs for your team losing a game...its childish and well past time to move on and get over it...you're gonna get a liberal president in the next election that you can vote for, if you're old enough to even vote yet, hell you're prolly 13 right now and just know what mommy, daddy and the people who hate bush tell you

No.

There are two questions that I think, realize it or not, people are addressing here.

The question asked:
"Did George Bush really win in '00?"

The question so many people are voting 'no' in response to:
"Did you want Al Gore to win the 2000 elections?"

Many people didn't WANT him to win. It was an extremely close election. But, by the current legal definition of "win" in the U.S., he did win. I think it's incredibly immature and hypocritical to allege fraud just because of an election loss like some Dems did, and on the same note I admire Al Gore for knowing when to challenge the decision and when to bow out.

Mr. Bush's approval rating right now stands at 32%. Unless the GOP candidate in '08 is able to create an image of himself (or herself, but probably not) as sufficiently removed from the Bush/the rest of the party, a Democrat will win in '08 anyway. You'll get your center-left president.

there are a few dems out there that i think could do a really good job, but please dont bring me this hillary clinton bullshit b/c if she gets elected, im running somewhere...ill move to cuba where ill be safe

i love how when people done get what they want, especially in a situation like this one, they will come up with every possible reason and every possible conspiracy theory to try and explain what happened...WAKE THE HELL UP!!!!...the only thing that happened was the person you wanted to win didn't...its like blaming the refs for your team losing a game...its childish and well past time to move on and get over it...you're gonna get a liberal president in the next election that you can vote for, if you're old enough to even vote yet, hell you're prolly 13 right now and just know what mommy, daddy and the people who hate bush tell you

Yeah. Bush and his supporters in Florida stole the election but hey people who complain are just being childish right? I mean an election that will effect our nations and the world's future is exactly the same as in a sports game where you don't complain if a qustionable call doesn't go your way right? I mean the refs also rig how the game will finish like happened in 2000 right?

Well, in that case you know we're at War, then. The President may not be your favourite person, but that doesn't mean you ought to cloud issues by dredging up the past like you are with this thread. He is our President, and at a time of War, we must be willing to put aside our partisan politics and give him the full support he needs so we can maintain our way of life.

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
--President Theodore Roosevelt, 1918 (during WWI, btw)

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

This "time of war" bullshit has to stop. bush cheats his way into the white house, then starts a war and now we cant diss him for the moron he is? he hides behind his own incompetence,

This "time of war" bullshit has to stop. bush cheats his way into the white house, then starts a war and now we cant diss him for the moron he is? he hides behind his own incompetence,
Thank you! Read my Bush post. It will tell you what happens when you SUPPORT this pesident! Down with Bush!

i love how when people done get what they want, especially in a situation like this one, they will come up with every possible reason and every possible conspiracy theory to try and explain what happened...WAKE THE HELL UP!!!!...the only thing that happened was the person you wanted to win didn't...its like blaming the refs for your team losing a game...its childish and well past time to move on and get over it...you're gonna get a liberal president in the next election that you can vote for, if you're old enough to even vote yet, hell you're prolly 13 right now and just know what mommy, daddy and the people who hate bush tell you

Thank you for speaking through your hat. It practically makes my point for me. Rather than addressing facts, you utilized Ad Hominem attacks to make your point.

57,746 citizens were listed as felons on a "scrub list" and removed from the voting rolls, but later analysis showed that many of these potential voters were incorrectly listed. (For instance, many had names similar to actual felons, some erroneously listed "felonies" were dated years in the future.[4], and some apparently were random.) These persons were disproportionately Democrats of African-American and Hispanic descent. In some cases, those on the scrub list were given several months to appeal, and many successfully reregistered and were allowed to vote. However, in most cases no effort was made to contact them before the election.

Care to respond to facts.

I think the 2000 election came down to who had the most connections, luck and the best lawyers at the end of it because of the ballot fiasco. If Gore had made better stragetic choices in recounts, case points, etc. he would've been president.

But he didn't, so he isn't.

No intentional cheating by either candiate, just a sort of replacing the election by ballot with a rushed legal battle (SOMEONE had to win, after all).

We may never know WHO ACTUALLY WON BY BALLOT.

So yeah, Bush may or may not be legit. But we're stuck with him for now, so we better make the most of it.

I think the 2000 election came down to who had the most connections, luck and the best lawyers at the end of it because of the ballot fiasco. If Gore had made better stragetic choices in recounts, case points, etc. he would've been president.

But he didn't, so he isn't.

No intentional cheating by either candiate, just a sort of replacing the election by ballot with a rushed legal battle (SOMEONE had to win, after all).

We may never know WHO ACTUALLY WON BY BALLOT.

So yeah, Bush may or may not be legit. But we're stuck with him for now, so we better make the most of it.Yeah we do know who won by ballot. Gore won the popular vote, even W acknowledges that. Bush just won in the electorial college.... But don't get me started on that.

http://www.baristanet.com/barista/images/beat_bush_bake_sale.jpg
It's fun for the entire family.

Well, in that case you know we're at War, then. The President may not be your favourite person, but that doesn't mean you ought to cloud issues by dredging up the past like you are with this thread. He is our President, and at a time of War, we must be willing to put aside our partisan politics and give him the full support he needs so we can maintain our way of life.

War with who exactly? What nation? The so-called war on terror is nothing but a subjective term used to scare people into doing whatever the head of state wants. War with Iraq? On what basis? None that have any real justification without making you look like an ass.

As to full support, only dummies give away constitutional rights and expect it back. After all, the constitution is only "a piece of paper"

In your opinion. The opinion of a foreigner and a liberal. I am unmoved.

Your opinion of a resident and apparently a closet fascist don't do much to speak for yourself.

"Of course the common people do not want war. It is the leaders that make war. But it is simple enough to bring them to support the war. By declaring an 'enemy' one can bring the populace to war and dissent can be silenced with accusations of unpatriotism and traitorous behaviour"

Not the exact quote, but the sentiments you express are exactly the same.

http://www.baristanet.com/barista/images/beat_bush_bake_sale.jpg
It's fun for the entire family.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm....political baked goods...

Is there anyone who believes he did?
Oh no not using "belief" for veracity! No!
Are you deliberately fanning flames here? ;)

Bush won, and anyone who claims they invented the internet does not deserve any office.
And anyone who says this even moreso:

"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job." —to a group of Amish in Lancaster, PA, July 9, 2004

You DO NOT want to get into a quotefight about who deserves the presidency.

Here's another one for you as to why he shouldn't be now:

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." —Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002

Instead of spamming with actual quotes, i'll suffice it to say that you're biting off a lot. In fact, you should show the exact source of your quote, unless Gore said it to you in confidence. Mm-hmmm.

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
--President Theodore Roosevelt, 1918 (during WWI, btw)
Amen to that. *bows*

Well, in that case you know we're at War, then. The President may not be your favourite person, but that doesn't mean you ought to cloud issues by dredging up the past like you are with this thread. He is our President, and at a time of War, we must be willing to put aside our partisan politics and give him the full support he needs so we can maintain our way of life.Already "our way of life" is under attack from himself, his neo-con cronies, and several thousand dipf*ck admin apologists. He doesn't need "support", he needs a quick and decisive hearing and summarial dismissal from public influence. He can go back to owning teams and crashing out businesses like Arbusto.

--Also, is it just too convenient that Jeb Bush was the governor of Florida? Not to claim conspiracy here, but come on; could this have been any more convenient?
Further still, how about Katherine Harris, who is currently on her run for senate ... remember precisely what actions she took regarding the ballots. And consider who she supported and how much it was worth to her.

People who say "Bush won and anyone who says otherwise is a whiner who lives in their parents' basement" need to shut their yaps.Agreed.

Also, what would have happened if Fox News kep their yaps shut and not called Florida for Bush?Thanks for Sean "Penny-ante Prick" Hannity and a few of the others involved in that.

I realize that my information about Fox News being the first to call Florida for Bush comes from Fahrenheit 9/11, and Michael Moore's more liberal than me, but still, that information has to come from somewhere.
And he got his info from CNN, PBS, the Chicago Sun-Times, and CBS news.
He has a book out with the evidence in it that he used for most of the flick.
Further, the truly damaging stuff was lifted pretty directly from a book entitled, House of Bush, House of Saud.

My understanding is Bush lost the Peoples vote but won the College vote.
But by won the college vote i mean he may have unknowingly gotten help from dubious means.

Is Bush better than Gore?
Yes.

He is our President, and at a time of War, we must be willing to put aside our partisan politics and give him the full support
That kind of reasoning is why you are at war, and will continue to be at war in the forseeable future.

Should have won, shouldn't have won... that's all opinion. The fact is, under the current Electoral College system President Bush won the electoral vote, plain and simple.

If you want to point fingers point to the idiots in Florida who couldn't figure out how to use their own voting system and the other idiots who were questioning the "hanging chad". It's like in the state of RI that uses a broken arrow that you fill in with a pencil. If you don't fill it in all the way, the vote does not count (it's all scanned into a computer).

People, he won that election and the 2004 election. He'll be gone in a little over 2 1/2 years. Get over it!:headbang:

Should have won, shouldn't have won... that's all opinion. The fact is, under the current Electoral College system President Bush won the electoral vote, plain and simple.

If you want to point fingers point to the idiots in Florida who couldn't figure out how to use their own voting system and the other idiots who were questioning the "hanging chad". It's like in the state of RI that uses a broken arrow that you fill in with a pencil. If you don't fill it in all the way, the vote does not count (it's all scanned into a computer).

People, he won that election and the 2004 election. He'll be gone in a little over 2 1/2 years. Get over it!:headbang:
It isn't complelty the idiots of Florida's fault.
Why isn't the Voting process more unifromed and made idiot friendly?
Or so Pedantic that the hole clipped couldn't be just outside the lines?

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg
Pssht. That horse is clearly still alive.

Pssht. That horse is clearly still alive.
LOL.
Not MR ED!:(

the guy is an idiot

the guy is an idiot
The guy beating the horse?

Did George Bush win in '00?
Yes. I was glad.

Yes. I was glad.
Dislike Gore?

Don't call me an idiot. I just think something was fishy about the whol election, especially with the chads, uncounted ballots, and such. I personally don't think he should've won.

Although I was about 10 at the time, I remember looking at the weeks newspapers (before they went off to recycling) with the headlines alternating between 'Bush' and 'Gore'. Vaguely amusing.

From a British point of view, it seems the problem stems from the fact that the way elections are conducted is outdated and flawed. It seems fine in a non partisan republic (Which is what the founding fathers wanted the US to be) to give individual states the power to choose the way that congressional delegations and presidential electors are elected, such as the ballot card, and electoral districts, since there would be little reason to fiddle with boundaries and counts. However, the US is now about as partisan and polarised and partisan as you can get.

Federal elections should be managed by a (nonpartisan) federal agency, using a uniform system across the entire USA, not by state legislators, as well as using PR for Congress and directly electing the President.

The upshot of it all, and it's the same in the UK, is the we preach 'democracy' to the entire world, and yet live with flawed systems. Gore should have won the '00 election, as Labour should only have 200 seats in Parliament, not the majority they currently enjoy.

Perhaps we just ought to buy some 'idiot-friendly democracy' off the shelf at Tesco, and I can cynically rant about something else. :p

I was in sixth grade during the election and even then, most of us thought something was rotten. Wether there was any proof to it or not.

Most of you sixth graders-yes. Really, most of your teachers probably told you something was rotten and thats sticking with you.

[wikipedia entry]

Care to respond to facts.
For example, hispanics listed on the felons list would seem to be counterintuitive, because the Cuban immigrant population is generally pretty pro-Republican, and they are the primary hispanic immigrants in Florida.

Unequivocally, yes

If you believe in the rule of law, that is, and a state's right to govern its election practices.

According to Florida Election Statutes, President Bush rightly won the 2000 election... Gore was wrong to try to change Florida law during the proceedings (shameless, really).

The fullness of time has revealed that both Democrats and Republicans are capable of foolish and violent disregard for the rules of electoral conduct, as my own great state of Wisconsin has just demonstrated (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=295538). It's unfortunate that our system is subject to such attacks by the recipients of its own graces, but that's the reality of it.

Anyway, the point is that Bush really won. We can't accurately measure the subversive effects of angry partisans, and as much as so many may hate him, just be thankful we at least have a pretty decent set of checks and balances to keep him from gaining too much power. In theory, at least. Wait him out and push for your candidate even harder next time around.

Unequivocally, yes

If you believe in the rule of law, that is, and a state's right to govern its election practices.

According to Florida Election Statutes, President Bush rightly won the 2000 election... Gore was wrong to try to change Florida law during the proceedings (shameless, really).

Gore's got no problem with shameless though, ie: him bitching out in a speech about President Bush to all his "friends" in the middle east a few months back.

The fullness of time has revealed that both Democrats and Republicans are capable of foolish and violent disregard for the rules of electoral conduct, as my own great state of Wisconsin has just demonstrated (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=295538). It's unfortunate that our system is subject to such attacks by the recipients of its own graces, but that's the reality of it.

Anyway, the point is that Bush really won. We can't accurately measure the subversive effects of angry partisans, and as much as so many may hate him, just be thankful we at least have a pretty decent set of checks and balances to keep him from gaining too much power. In theory, at least. Wait him out and push for your candidate even harder next time around.


I agree. Well said.

This thread has all the great components.

-It's got guys claiming massive conspiracies to steal the election while the primary cause for concern was an illegal ballot chosen by democrats. Incidentally, it's the same type of ballot that they use in Chicago.

-It's got guys claiming that we should never challenge the president or mention any problems because it's unAmerican.

Bush won the electoral college according to the laws of our nation. There has never been presented a compelling case to show that Bush did anything illegal and the Florida election procedures were followed. Is it really that hard to believe that a grossly Republican state voted for a Republican president. How do people believe Jeb Bush got into office if the state hates the Bush people so much?

AND.... Bush is a horrible president. I think he's done virtually everything wrong, but I'm still not going to complain and pretend like he lost an election just because I didn't like the outcome. The election was close in several states. The recounts continued in Florida after the election was decided and they still found Bush the winner under the rules as set by Gore's staff. Incidentally, had they followed the more strict rules that GWB's crew suggested Gore might have taken it, and under the rules of the state Bush also one. There was an article about it in the NY Times and in the Chicago Tribune that was posted on NS several times.

Come on, people, don't we have better things to be concerned with than whether or not there was a problem in '00. We know there was a problem with that ballot. Unfortunately, you can't change the rules after the fact. The choices were continue the recounts and not count Florida in the election, and nobody's vote in Florida counts, or follow Florida law and allow the electoral representatives of Florida to vote for Bush.

As to the unAmerican thing, that is the MOST RIDICULOUS thing I've ever heard. We have a responsibility to become an informed electorate or else our votes are just ignorant guesses. How do you propose we do that without discussing the current administation and challenging the actions of our government. What do you propose as an alternative to analyzing the actions of the government? Blindly following them? Even in the military, which is most certainly a democracy, we are encouraged to follow orders, if they are legal, and then encouraged to voice our concerns if we have them. There is an entire system in place for such things. Interesting that you think those in a democracy should have less ability to analyze those in charge than those in a volunteer military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000
57,746 citizens were listed as felons on a "scrub list" and removed from the voting rolls, but later analysis showed that many of these potential voters were incorrectly listed. (For instance, many had names similar to actual felons, some erroneously listed "felonies" were dated years in the future.[4], and some apparently were random.) These persons were disproportionately Democrats of African-American and Hispanic descent. In some cases, those on the scrub list were given several months to appeal, and many successfully reregistered and were allowed to vote. However, in most cases no effort was made to contact them before the election.


Care to respond to facts.
__________________
Economic Left/Right: -3.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -10.00

Interestingly enough, a swing back to the left. *shrug*


hmmmm...well im gonna go out on a limb here and guess that this study was probably not done by an independent source...can i assume that?
and even if it wasnt, ill go back to my original point of my first post, which was that i dont particularily like bush that much, and myself oftentimes refer to him as a dumbass...but at the same time, he scares me less than al gore being president, and a hell of a lot less than john kerry...i shudder to think about how al gore would have responded to the 9/11 attack and how john kerry would be trying to deal with worldwide terroism

a little something that many people seem to forget about. electoral college.

he won with them, he won the office

:( Bush's brother, Jeb, the governer of Florida, told his secretary (I'm not exactly sure who.) to get a list of ex-felons. In Florida ex-felons cannot vote. Anyways, he told her just to make sure that the first three or so letters of the first and last names matched the old lists, and the new reports. When some people (mostly democrats of course) showed up to vote, they were told that because they were "ex-felons" they could not cast their ballots. Even after the whole hanging chad issue, a recount showed that Al Gore won anyways. Think how much better off we'd be if the rightful winner was sworn in

Don't call me an idiot. I just think something was fishy about the whol election, especially with the chads, uncounted ballots, and such. I personally don't think he should've won.
No, he shouldn't have won, but he did, and there's no point in reminiscing about it now. Why don't you go start a thread about global warming or something?

Don't call me an idiot. I just think something was fishy about the whol election, especially with the chads, uncounted ballots, and such. I personally don't think he should've won.

You are stupid because every media organization in the country went down to Florida and found out he won the election.

Why does this keep coming up after 6 years? This is going to be just as repetitive as the Hiroshima/Nagasaki debates.

Is there anyone who believes he did?

The press

I don't hate Bush, the man. I hate Bush, the president. And all the cronies he surrounds himself with. I'm not some pissant 13 year old if that's what you think. I'm 18 if that means anything.

In other words, you don't know crap about the real world. I suggest you look at the facts that the major media organizations went down there after the votes were certified and found out that Bush did in fact win the state of Florida in 2000 and thus the electoral college.

Well, in that case you know we're at War, then. The President may not be your favourite person, but that doesn't mean you ought to cloud issues by dredging up the past like you are with this thread. He is our President, and at a time of War, we must be willing to put aside our partisan politics and give him the full support he needs so we can maintain our way of life.

Here here.

The only fishy thing about the 00 election was the cheating that the dunderhead Al Gore and his side did... They were using the names of people who were dead, they tried to hide ballots that were for Bush and also said that those who voted for Bush really meant to vote for Gore and asked to have those changed... The Democratic party also tried some of those same underhanded tricks in the 04 election.

What you don't understand is that Bush IS actually a decent president. I am definately NOT saying he is the best nor even close to that, but he has done more good for this country and the world than bad... Stop listening to the liberal news media and listen to a FAIR news source such as FOX NEWS that presents BOTH sides of the story.

Bush "technically" won, but had the election not be tampered with by Jeb Bush, he would not have. Between voter intimidation (roadblocks and such set up in areas that were known to be highly liberal in Florida) and the distorted "felons" list, which listed a number of African Americans who were not felons as felons, It's fairly obvious that the small vote margin in Florida WAS tampered with, and that Al Gore would have likely won the state, were it not for Jeb and/or Katherine Harris.

Oh my god! You actually believe this non-sense? *dies of laughter*

Here here.
After 9/11, Bush was a classic example of partisanship. Instead of telling Americans that we should tighten our belts and cut our dependence on foreign oil, he told us to go shopping. Then, he supported the gay marriage ban. This president cares only about his base, the hardcore christian right. If my president is partisan, then I will be also.

And it's Hear, Hear.

The only fishy thing about the 00 election was the cheating that the dunderhead Al Gore and his side did... They were using the names of people who were dead, they tried to hide ballots that were for Bush and also said that those who voted for Bush really meant to vote for Gore and asked to have those changed... The Democratic party also tried some of those same underhanded tricks in the 04 election.

What you don't understand is that Bush IS actually a decent president. I am definately NOT saying he is the best nor even close to that, but he has done more good for this country and the world than bad... Stop listening to the liberal news media and listen to a FAIR news source such as FOX NEWS that presents BOTH sides of the story.
Thanks, I needed that.

*wipes away tears of laughter*

Yeah. Bush and his supporters in Florida stole the election but hey people who complain are just being childish right? I mean an election that will effect our nations and the world's future is exactly the same as in a sports game where you don't complain if a qustionable call doesn't go your way right? I mean the refs also rig how the game will finish like happened in 2000 right?

Oh brother. Bush didn't steal the election. It was Gore who was trying to steal the election.

Oh brother. Bush didn't steal the election. It was Gore who was trying to steal the election.
How so?

This "time of war" bullshit has to stop. bush cheats his way into the white house, then starts a war and now we cant diss him for the moron he is? he hides behind his own incompetence,

Don't give me this "bush cheats his way into office" crap because frankly, he didn't and it has been proven that he didn't and no one has come forward with proof that he did.

If there was proof that he cheated, it would've came out long before now.

After 9/11, Bush was a classic example of partisanship. Instead of telling Americans that we should tighten our belts and cut our dependence on foreign oil, he told us to go shopping. Then, he supported the gay marriage ban. This president cares only about his base, the hardcore christian right. If my president is partisan, then I will be also.

And it's Hear, Hear.Do you hear yourself? What Bush was saying by telling us to spend as much money as before is that we can't show fear. If we all stoped spending money we would give the terrorists exactly what they wanted a slow in our economy and the major loss of business that they were partialy looking for.

The president is obviously going to lean toward supporting the right because those are the morals he ran on and got elected on... Duh!

And supporting the ban on Gay marriage had nothing to do with 9/11... That was simply the politics that were going on at the time...

Don't give me this "bush cheats his way into office" crap because frankly, he didn't and it has been proven that he didn't and no one has come forward with proof that he did.

If there was proof that he cheated, it would've came out long before now.
Regardless, he should be criticized for his lack of competence.

Do you hear yourself? What Bush was saying by telling us to spend as much money as before is that we can't show fear. If we all stoped spending money we would give the terrorists exactly what they wanted a slow in our economy and the major loss of business that they were partialy looking for.

The president is obviously going to lean toward supporting the right because those are the morals he ran on and got elected on... Duh!

And supporting the ban on Gay marriage had nothing to do with 9/11... That was simply the politics that were going on at the time...
I understand that he wanted to revive the economy from a recession. BUT, there were more worthwhile things he could have been doing. And the gay marriage thing is just stupid.

Don't give me this "bush cheats his way into office" crap because frankly, he didn't and it has been proven that he didn't and no one has come forward with proof that he did.

If there was proof that he cheated, it would've came out long before now.There may be proof that Bush cheated, but you all need to admit that there were cases of cheating on both sides... Much more on the Demicrat side, if you look at all the evidence...

What you all need to do is look into the way that the electoral college works. Presidents are not elected by just the raw number of votes they get. If that were the case Gore would have won in 00 and so would have Kerry in 04. The electoral college that finally decides the president decides on the number of states each candidate carried and how many representitives those states have in the Electoral college.

I understand that he wanted to revive the economy from a recession. BUT, there were more worthwhile things he could have been doing. And the gay marriage thing is just stupid.
Ok... I won't get into my views on Gay Marriage because that is not the dicussion here, but I will ask what you meant by "more worthwhile things." Please clarify that because I don't understand what you mean.. sorry...

How so?

for starters, he only wanted a recount in 4 counties instead of the entire state. Those counties already went for him.

He also got how the ballots are to be counted changed more than once before the recount was even done. You do not change the rules in the middle of the game.

He also had a 6-1 advantage on the Florida Supreme Court who also changed the rules and ignored the US Supreme Court which precipitated the US Supreme Court stepping in and saying the election is over.

Regardless, he should be criticized for his lack of competence.

Don't care if you criticize him or not however you can't call him illegitament because he won the election fair and square.

I understand that he wanted to revive the economy from a recession. BUT, there were more worthwhile things he could have been doing. And the gay marriage thing is just stupid.

It's hard to do other things with a weak economy; tax income is reduced, investment/consumption spending falls, and unemployment rises all of which are both politically undesirable as well as economically and strategically undesirable for the nation.

One of the few things I credit Bush for was the 2001 tax cut; it was a wise decision that mitigated the effects of 9/11, the pre-attack recession, the corporate scandals and the stock market bottoming out in 2002. Also, the tax cut kept disposable income rising which is definitely one of the reasons why the economy has not fallen in to a slowdown or recession due to higher energy prices in the past five years.

The gay marriage thing was pretty stupid; I can't stand him when it comes to social policies or the environment. Economically, I like him but socially/environmentally, absolutely not.

man these threads crack me up...i mean, is there anyone on this particular thread who follows politics or was even old enough to vote in that election other than me?...yeah i voted for bush, twice actually...im a registered independent b/c i dont want to be associated with either major party, i vote for who i feel i think most closely to...to be honest, im very unhappy with the majority of the things bush has done, but in hindsight, i would not change my vote...im fairly certain that had gore won, the world would no longer be here, he was as unfit and ridiculous candidate for president that ive ever seen...have you seen the guy now, he went nuts in case you havent...look him up on the net, he went crazy...and john kerry was probably the scariest candidate we've had in quite awhile...i would've voted for frankenstein before kerry b/c frankly, the monster scares me less...kerry didnt have, and still does not have, ANY definate opinion on ANY subject...the man flops around and changes his opinion more than he changes his underwear...say what you want about bush, he has done some stupid things, but he does what he says he going to do...i just wish that he would listen to the people around him a little bit more:headbang:This man states my feelings very well. I agree with him. and yea... only difference is that I am 16 but I still follow politics very closely and stuff...

It's hard to do other things with a weak economy; tax income is reduced, investment/consumption spending falls, and unemployment rises all of which are both politically undesirable as well as economically and strategically undesirable for the nation.

One of the few things I credit Bush for was the 2001 tax cut; it was a wise decision that mitigated the effects of 9/11, the pre-attack recession, the corporate scandals and the stock market bottoming out in 2002. Also, the tax cut kept disposable income rising which is definitely one of the reasons why the economy has not fallen in to a slowdown or recession due to higher energy prices in the past five years.

The gay marriage thing was pretty stupid; I can't stand him when it comes to social policies or the environment. Economically, I like him but socially/environmentally, absolutely not.
Very good post! I can understand why you don't like his social stuff but the environment going to shit is a lie made up by the liberal media in their desperate attepts to win over the american people.

Is there no one else to debate? :gundge:

Maybe George Bush won in 2000, maybe he didn't. The disturbing thing is, his friends in the judiciary branch made sure we'd never find out.

Maybe George Bush won in 2000, maybe he didn't. The disturbing thing is, his friends in the judiciary branch made sure we'd never find out.
Yea, I always did find that a little weird, but who wouldn't do that if they had that kind of power?

One of the few things I credit Bush for was the 2001 tax cut; it was a wise decision that mitigated the effects of 9/11, the pre-attack recession, the corporate scandals and the stock market bottoming out in 2002. Also, the tax cut kept disposable income rising which is definitely one of the reasons why the economy has not fallen in to a slowdown or recession due to higher energy prices in the past five years.

The gay marriage thing was pretty stupid; I can't stand him when it comes to social policies or the environment. Economically, I like him but socially/environmentally, absolutely not.

I don't necessarilly agree with the first part. I haven't been very sure on his tax and economy policies. However, I definatly agree with the second part. Both points I might add.

I don't necessarilly agree with the first part. I haven't been very sure on his tax and economy policies. However, I definatly agree with the second part. Both points I might add.

In macroeconomic theory, the tax cut definitely worked. Most of the data is somewhat circumstantial in nature, but the data that we have suggests a casual link between the tax cuts and the economic rebound in 2003.

Bush is terrible on social policies; the less he does, the better.

In macroeconomic theory, the tax cut definitely worked. Most of the data is somewhat circumstantial in nature, but the data that we have suggests a casual link between the tax cuts and the economic rebound in 2003.

Well.... My knowledge in taxes is rather.... Lack. Only what I hear from CBS, and NPR which isn't much.


Bush is terrible on social policies; the less he does, the better.

That's the only part of his policies which I know a lot of. Now that I think of it, it's the only part I probably only pay atention to.

Don't call me an idiot. I just think something was fishy about the whol election, especially with the chads, uncounted ballots, and such. I personally don't think he should've won.
Only the severley uninformed think that Gore won the race he tried to steal.

Regardless, he should be criticized for his lack of competence.
This is typical left-wing propaganda. Lay out a slanderous lie, then when confronted about the lie, redirect the conversation to another slander.

This is typical left-wing propaganda. Lay out a slanderous lie, then when confronted about the lie, redirect the conversation to another slander.

Cool, right-wing troll! Ummm....gay rights!

Anyway, there is at least something dodgy about the cover-ups in the judiciary branch. You've gotta admit that much.

You are stupid
Hey, behave yourself! I actually defended you before about this kind of stuff. And i trusted you to keep your word. You should be ashamed of yourself, especially considering your widely printed "change of heart". :(
Why does this keep coming up after 6 years? This is going to be just as repetitive as the Hiroshima/Nagasaki debates.
Perhaps you fail to understand what "disenfranchised" means.

As well, being consistantly wrong never seems to stop YOU from arguing the same misinformation, debate after debate.

Is there no one else to debate? :gundge:
As Myotisinia put so eloquently, or at least a paraphrase in kind spirit:
"So this is the sound of one hand clapping."

Perhaps you've got a circle of applause there. Even, around you. Perhaps you're the center of attention. :D
It's funny you used that particular smilie ... kinda like the movie, "Spider".
:eek:

This is typical left-wing propaganda. Lay out a slanderous lie, then when confronted about the lie, redirect the conversation to another slander.
You got the wrong wing there, tiger. You obviously need a mirror, for many reasons.
Perhaps this needs to be about evidence, for which i'm pretty sure you have in short measure, and i wonder how adept i am at it? *poke*

Maybe George Bush won in 2000, maybe he didn't. The disturbing thing is, his friends in the judiciary branch made sure we'd never find out.Actually, the final "post-mortem" on the Florida ballots made it clear that if all the ballots in Florida had been recounted (or all counted in the first place) Bush would've lost Florida and the electoral college to Gore. Thus, even with the ridiculousness of the electoral college allowed as a legitimate means of selection, Gore should've been president.

Oh... oh... wait...

Nope, there's not a damn way I could care less. The past is the past and you're sure as hell not going to change it now, so just let it go.

Besides, I think we all know the Three Laws of Al Gore:
1. Al Gore may not harm a human being, or allow a human being to be harmed.
2. Al Gore must obey the orders given by the human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. Al Gore must protect his own existence, as long as such protection does not conflict the First or Second Law.

Oh... oh... wait...

Nope, there's not a damn way I could care less. The past is the past and you're sure as hell not going to change it now, so just let it go.

Besides, I think we all know the Three Laws of Al Gore:
1. Al Gore may not harm a human being, or allow a human being to be harmed.
2. Al Gore must obey the orders given by the human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. Al Gore must protect his own existence, as long as such protection does not conflict the First or Second Law.
What about that pesky hidden law?
Perhaps you're confusing Al Gore with Johnny Five.
"No disassemble! NO disassemble!"

Obviously the electoral college probably needs a little fine tuning. The states where the Democrats won, they won hugely. The states where the Republicans won were obviously more tightly contested. But the votes for each state are given whole to whatever party won that state and are not divided up in a ratio to more closely approximate the popular vote. In other words, what was heretofore thought to be just about impossible and therfore did not need addressing, was clearly quite possible after all. Right or wrong, that is the system we have. If you don't like it write your congressman and/or senator. Be proactive for a change. Do something besides crying on a forum where you might as well be whispering your angst down into a bottomless bloody well.

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
--President Theodore Roosevelt, 1918 (during WWI, btw)
Damn communist BS. Playing right into the hands of the terrorists.

Hey, behave yourself! I actually defended you before about this kind of stuff. And i trusted you to keep your word. You should be ashamed of yourself, especially considering your widely printed "change of heart". :(

Yes you are indeed right. My apologies. I get fustrated when this whole issue comes up time after time. I shouldn't let my anger get in the way.

There are two things wrong with this thread.

First of all: The author simply started it to pick a fight. Talk about being a few years out of date, eh?

Second: George W. Bush served the 2000-2004 term and even got re-elected for the 2004-2008 term. You know what that means? He won. Al Gore hasn't secretly been president for the past six years...he's been off hunting ManBearPig.