NationStates Jolt Archive

As you may or may not know, I greatly enjoy alternate history. So now I ask you. What would have happened if Judiasm had never become a religion. I.E. Abraham died after he was born as a result of his mother having a miscarriage.

Judaism never was a massive religion. Numerically, it has never been especially large; it has only ever been the state religion of a single nation; in most modern nations it ranks third or fourth, if it ranks at all.
Judaism is more important for the influence it has had on the other Abrahamic religions than anything it has ever done.

It's still not a massive religion. People just think it is because they're DICKHEADS.

Judaism never was a massive religion. Numerically, it has never been especially large; it has only ever been the state religion of a single nation; in most modern nations it ranks third or fourth, if it ranks at all.
Judaism is more important for the influence it has had on the other Abrahamic religions than anything it has ever done.
Edited OP.

It's still not a massive religion. People just think it is because they're DICKHEADS.
Why am I becoming such a combustable substance? Seriously...

It's an interesting question. I don't know enough about history to answer it though.

Why am I becoming such a combustable substance? Seriously...

Oops. I didn't mean that you were a dickhead. Just that people like Nazis, islamic extremists and liberals make Judaism seem like the cause of the world's problems, when they're only a tiny minority of peoples.

In answer to your new question, it can't be imagined. The world would be infinitely different.

Why am I becoming such a combustable substance? Seriously...

You're not. It would appear that K-P is the combustible one...

Well, there would be no Christianity. Damn... wouldn't that be tragic?

Paganism would run wild.

Paganism would run wild.
Not quite. People often ignore the fact that Christianity was only one of the three major monotheistic cults of the IIIrd century Roman Empire. The other two being, IIRC, the Mithraism and the cult of the Sun. So, if Judaism had never become a religion, the obvious conclusion is that one of the other two would now be the majority religion in Europe - and maybe even North Africa. No Judaism => no Islam. Although, of course, maybe an offshot of Mithraism would have developed in Arabia and followed the general evolution of Islam. When discussing such a major change at such an early date, the number of plausible outcomes is almost limitless.

I have to agree with Bogmihia and say that Mithraism would be a likely candidate for Europe. Who knows? Perhaps monotheistic religions never would have took off? Perhaps we'd have a far more pantheistic and cosmopoliton religious world?

Judiasm helped spawn Christianity and Islam. So a world without Judiasm is ultimately a better world.

I think monotheism would have still evolved, albeit in a different path; most of the core beliefs of early Christianity appear to have been inspired by the various gods of polythiestic systems, in particular Dionysus and Osiris. Both of them had major similarities with the story of Jesus, so it's possible monotheistic systems might have evolved that were shaped by the followers of these gods rather than by the Jews.

Zoroastrianism and Mithraism may have also become dominant religions in their respective regions, with the result being that Middle Eastern monotheism would have either been these religions or evolved from them, with added influence from the polytheists

I would say the religious picture would have still shifted at least somewhat monotheistic in the areas where these beliefs existed; however, the fall of the Roman Empire would have likely led to a fairly chaotic religious environment due to the lack of institutionalized state religion and the lack of a dominant belief system during the post-imperial era.

I would say that if this was the case, then monotheist religions would either not exist at all, or they would be very small minorities in a polytheist world. The other monotheist religions of the Roman World would not have caught on in the way that Christianity did.

We'd have massive Ziggurats in all major cities and worship Assur, Ishtar, or En-lil.

Nix, the polytheism of Babylon was dead and gone.

First, the only thing that held Rome together as long as it did was Christianity. It's especially important to realise that the "barbarians" who conquered Rome were, by that time, thoroughly civilized christians themselves - mostly through long-term contact with Rome.

Further, it was Christianity that provided the social bedrock of the eastern Roman Empire, or Byzantine Empire, during it's brief renaissance after Rome's fall. Had that not been the case, there was indeed a power ready, willing and able to step in - Persia.

The Second Persian Empire - or, to use their own terms, The Empire of Iran and Non-Iran - ruled most of the middle east, was territorially expansionist, and monotheistic. Their religion was Zoroastrianism, after the prophet Zoroaster.

I don't know that Persia could have ruled the entire Mediterranean Basin, let alone Rome's more northern provinces, but they would have tried - and I suspect their religion would have gone further than they would.

I doubt that very much would be different without Christianity. It's more of a justification for people's behaviour than the cause of it, I think.

The Second Persian Empire - or, to use their own terms, The Empire of Iran and Non-Iran - ruled most of the middle east, was territorially expansionist, and monotheistic. Their religion was Zoroastrianism, after the prophet Zoroaster.Ooh I forgot about Zoroaster. Yes, that would be the dominant monotheistic religion of the world had Abraham not lived, for the reasons you gave about Christianity and the Roman Empire.

Judiasm helped spawn Christianity and Islam. So a world without Judiasm is ultimately a better world.

However, every religion has had it's extremists, and we'd just be grumbling about authoritarian and xenophobic religions leaders of some other faith.

It's also perfectly plausible to believe that monotheism would never have become as widespread. I think it would be fair to say that there'd be at least a bit more cultural diversity, unless one of the other religions came up with the missionary idea (far from impossible.)

This is, by the way, a really fascinating question. Interesting thing to think about, isn't it?

Ooh I forgot about Zoroaster. Yes, that would be the dominant monotheistic religion of the world had Abraham not lived, for the reasons you gave about Christianity and the Roman Empire.
But I think the important question is: How would a society dominated by Zoroasterism act differently then one guided by the judeo-christian tradition. I don't know much about Zoroasterism, so I can't say, but the world would definitely be different

It's still not a massive religion. People just think it is because they're DICKHEADS.

*mumbles somthing about* christianity, but don't mind me. move along, nothing to see here

Okay, new question. What if the Germans never attacked Rome? What if Rome had sussesfuly conquered Germany?

Tribespeople tend to have gods that imitate power centers in their own society. That is the gods tend to act like a big bickering family, which is what tribal life is pretty much like. Once you have politcal systems with strong central authority, then you have a tendency for gods to imitate this and you end up with what it called monotheism, although really they are polytheisms with one big kick arse authority. For example Christianity has God, Jesus, Satan, Mary, angels and more saints than you can poke a stick at but God is the unquestion great authority. Christianity even accepted the existence of other gods although they called them devils or demons.

So I think once a strong central authority was established there would be pressure to turn existing tribal based polytheisims into monotheistic type religions, regardless of what form the original polytheism may have been, or to replace them with monotheisms from outside.

Roma Aeterna, perhaps.

Actually, they would have fallen, perhaps to the depredations of the Muslim world, or Slav invasions.

Okay, new question. What if the Germans never attacked Rome? What if Rome had sussesfuly conquered Germany?

I think the real question to ask is not, "Why did Rome fall?" But rather, "Why didn't Rome put itself back together again after the last time it fell?" To my admittedly cursory reading it seems that Rome was always falling apart for some reason or another.

Okay, new question. What if the Germans never attacked Rome? What if Rome had sussesfuly conquered Germany?

As I recall, there was indeed a movement in england during then 19th century that actually postulated that Germany was crap precisely because it had never lived under roman rule. (Unlike the lower half of the sceptered isle).

Maybe had Publius Quintilius Varus been less of a tit, the gemans would have won WWI.

Tribespeople tend to have gods that imitate power centers in their own society. That is the gods tend to act like a big bickering family, which is what tribal life is pretty much like. Once you have politcal systems with strong central authority, then you have a tendency for gods to imitate this and you end up with what it called monotheism, although really they are polytheisms with one big kick arse authority. For example Christianity has God, Jesus, Satan, Mary, angels and more saints than you can poke a stick at but God is the unquestion great authority. Christianity even accepted the existence of other gods although they called them devils or demons.

So I think once a strong central authority was established there would be pressure to turn existing tribal based polytheisims into monotheistic type religions, regardless of what form the original polytheism may have been, or to replace them with monotheisms from outside.

Exactly. We create gods in our own image. Monotheism would have arisen in something approximating the present form however many prophets dying as babies one postulates.

There are tons of religions. The ones that catch on are the ones that manage to fit well into a society. If Judaism/Christianity/Islam hadn't done it, something else would have.

Exactly. We create gods in our own image. Monotheism would have arisen in something approximating the present form however many prophets dying as babies one postulates.


Yet, the majority of the world isn't monotheistic. Doubly so before european colonialism.

And the chinese and the indians aren't that way, and they seem to be doing fine.