NationStates Jolt Archive

Two computers can argue all they want about wether or not humans exist, or wether we're just a figment of the videogames that they so frequently run... Well, wether or not they think we don't exist, we do. And even if we have a poll on wether or not God exists, I'm not too sure that'll change his mind on being in control.

A lot of people wonder why bad things happen... Well, it's because we're idiots. No matter how good, smart or wise we are, we're still pretty darn, and atleast two-thirds of the problems we face we caused ourselves, but are too proud to accept that. Now hold on, before you say that this person you knew was a 'good person', let us not forget that God is a good guy. He is peace, order and coherency. The devil (he's the bad guy, you really should remember that) is the ruler of entropy, chaos and death. "The devil comes only to steal, kill and destroy." Now, lets say that the person you know who died truly was a good person... Well, you think God killed them? First off, why the hell would he do that. We have no reason to automatically assume God did that, unless we don't admit that the devil exists... Most of you know that the best tactic in battle is to have the enemy convinced you don't exist. If they don't think you're armies are arround, they won't prepare to fight you. Now, it doesn't take a prophet to figure out that perhaps the devil is doing the same. How many people believe that he's more than a little red dude with a pitch-fork and pointy tale? Or that he's even more than a metaphor for 'badness?

Well, I may be just a teen, but I'm not stupid, and chances are most of you aren't stupid, since you've been able to read this far. If you got pissed really quickly, just ask yourself, 'why'. I can guarrantee you that there's a lot more going around than we can see, and it isn't Evlis in a space ship or parallel dimensions...

no. to both questions. i am just a figment of your cocaine addled imagination.

I'm sorry, did you mean to have a point to your post?

I'm sorry, did you mean to have a point to your post?
yes. He was saying that you don't exist.

no. to both questions. i am just a figment of your cocaine addled imagination.

Heh-heh, well people on cocaine usually aren't smart enough to start they're sentences with capital letters, or to make coherent statements, so think on that my friend ;)

yes. He was saying that you don't exist.
But...I like existing :(

If good and bad is so darn black and white in the spiritual world, why isn't it equally black and white in the material world?

I'm sorry, did you mean to have a point to your post?

Only that we have to think a lot more before we go blaming God for everything that goes wrong and taking credit when anything good goes our way.

Only that we have to think a lot more before we go blaming God for everything that goes wrong and taking credit when anything good goes our way.
Personally, I don't blame god at all; it would be silly for me to blame something I don't believe in.

If good and bad is so darn black and white in the spiritual world, why isn't it equally black and white in the material world?

There is only one good way, but infinite wrong ways. That's in spiritual life and real life. We just have to think a lot more before we act on things.

Personally, I don't blame god at all; it would be silly for me to blame something I don't believe in.
Haha, oh my, that was quite good.

There is only one good way, but infinite wrong ways. That's in spiritual life and real life. We just have to think a lot more before we act on things.
Do you hate gays?

Personally, I don't blame god at all; it would be silly for me to blame something I don't believe in.

We all believe in an ultimate power, wether it be a god, some fictional or real human, or ourselves. There is no true atheism, just a disbelief of an immaterial being.

Originally posted by Remorthia
Only that we have to think a lot more before we go blaming God for everything that goes wrong and taking credit when anything good goes our way.
How can you blame a superstition for something. Other than when a believer in that superstition directly causes it.

We all believe in an ultimate power, wether it be a god, some fictional or real human, or ourselves. There is no true atheism, just a disbelief of an immaterial being.
....no.

Do you hate gays?

I do not hate them, but I certainly dissagree with what they believe. I don't hate people, just strongly dissagree. It's the Muslims who'll blow us all up.

We all believe in an ultimate power, wether it be a god, some fictional or real human, or ourselves. There is no true atheism, just a disbelief of an immaterial being.
Well, I for one don't believe in a wizard in the sky who watches over me.

I do not hate them, but I certainly dissagree with what they believe. I don't hate people, just strongly dissagree. It's the Muslims who'll blow us all up.
Ahh...nothing better than a ranting christian.

My girlfriend is from Pakistan, and I can assure you, she won't blow anyone up anytime soon.

Well, I for one don't believe in a wizard in the sky who watches over me.

Neither do I, I'm no wiccan and I'm glad you're smart enough not to be. :)

There is only one good way, but infinite wrong ways. That's in spiritual life and real life. We just have to think a lot more before we act on things.

But I don't agree with you. I think that it's extremely difficult to define "good" and "bad," that there are a lot of perfectly respectable ways to behave, that certain activities are neither obviously right nor obviously wrong, and that everyone has a personal right to make his or her own descisions, with certain limitations (the ability to hurt others isn't a right).

You are going on the assumption that it is undeniable that God exists. That simply is not the case. We don't know, no one does. People can claim they know, they can make all kinds of claims, but in the end, we just don't know. I'm not sure what religion you are, but you seem like yet another christian who is just baffled that people have other opinions than your "absolute truth." You don't know and neither do I. Anyone who claims they know is lying. They may think they know, but they don't. And when no one knows, there are going to be different opinions.

I do not hate them, but I certainly dissagree with what they believe. I don't hate people, just strongly dissagree. It's the Muslims who'll blow us all up.

Yes. The religious demographic causing all the world's problems is definately the Muslims. I think Robert Picton and Charles Manson and Hitler were all converts.

Neither do I, I'm no wiccan and I'm glad you're smart enough not to be. :)
I was referring to this ridiculous fictional bearded old white man in white robes you like to call God.

Ahh...nothing better than a ranting christian.

My girlfriend is from Pakistan, and I can assure you, she won't blow anyone up anytime soon.

The foundation of Islam is that it's core beliefs will change depending on the situation. Mohammad was all about peace until he had enough people to invade Mecca.

The foundation of Islam is that it's core beliefs will change depending on the situation. Mohammad was all about peace until he had enough people to invade Mecca.
What do you know about Islam?

The Koran has many more incitements to peace than violence. It's the religious leaders and politicians that twist it for their own gain.

Please try again without starting from a false assumption. Thanks!

The foundation of Islam is that it's core beliefs will change depending on the situation. Mohammad was all about peace until he had enough people to invade Mecca.

But there's no hate or killing in the bible, right?

But I don't agree with you. I think that it's extremely difficult to define "good" and "bad," that there are a lot of perfectly respectable ways to behave, that certain activities are neither obviously right nor obviously wrong, and that everyone has a personal right to make his or her own descisions, with certain limitations (the ability to hurt others isn't a right).

I agree that everyone has the right to make their own decisions. That's why we're talking right now instead of working on a farm growing food or as slaves to a fictional and cruel god. And it's true that it is rarely obvious which way is the best way, but all-the-more reason to slow down to research and think about things more thoroughly.

But there's no hate or killing in the bible, right?
Look up: Old Testament.

The foundation of Islam is that it's core beliefs will change depending on the situation. Mohammad was all about peace until he had enough people to invade Mecca.
And who's to say that's not the right way to do things? As you say yourself, there are a thousand wrong ways and just one right way. Maybe it's the Muslim way.

I agree that everyone has the right to make their own decisions. That's why we're talking right now instead of working on a farm growing food or as slaves to a fictional and cruel god. And it's true that it is rarely obvious which way is the best way, but all-the-more reason to slow down to research and think about things more thoroughly.

The fact that the right way to behave is exactly what's a contradiction in your original statement. Logically speaking, the material world should be a reflection of the spiritual one. Therefore, if the definition of good is obvious in the spiritual world, why isn't it in the material world?

You are going on the assumption that it is undeniable that God exists. That simply is not the case. We don't know, no one does. People can claim they know, they can make all kinds of claims, but in the end, we just don't know. I'm not sure what religion you are, but you seem like yet another christian who is just baffled that people have other opinions than your "absolute truth." You don't know and neither do I. Anyone who claims they know is lying. They may think they know, but they don't. And when no one knows, there are going to be different opinions.

Quite true, we have no way of knowing for sure wether he be or don't be. Well, I never said I knew, I simply pointed out the majority of logic that is in favor of his existence. I'm not going to beat you over the head to believe what I believe, because there's no point to that. Why force someone to believe something? It defeats the purpose of it. You are free to believe whatever you wish, as all humanity is, but no matter how much we believe it that doesn't mean it's correct. And yes, I'm aware that applies to me too, but until I'm disproved I have no reason to become an atheist or anything else.

In response to the original poster:

Attributing evil to the devil doesn't really work, since, at least within the Judaeo-Christian mythos, he has no real power, only being able to do what God chooses to allow him to do (as in the book of Job).

If you're a Zoroastrian, the theory works perfectly: Angra Manyu is waaay more of a threat on the cosmic level than Satan is. If you're a Christian, it... doesn't.

Yes. The religious demographic causing all the world's problems is definately the Muslims. I think Robert Picton and Charles Manson and Hitler were all converts.

People can say all they want, and fool the whole world even, but that doesn't necessarily mean they believed what they said they believed. It was a simple tactic he used to get the Catholic Church (which is far too heretical to be called a church) to not oppose him. He also slaughtered the Yehudim (Jews in plain English), who anyone who has read the Bible (both Old and Renewed Testaments) will know are God's chosen people. (you might remember that there is no gentile gate in the New Jerusalem)

And no, I am not a Jew myself. (time is short, but e-mail me and I'll explain in depth if you want)

I was referring to this ridiculous fictional bearded old white man in white robes you like to call God.

Ah, if he were a man he wouldn't be God. We're talking about 2 different people now.

People can say all they want, and fool the whole world even, but that doesn't necessarily mean they believed what they said they believed. It was a simple tactic he used to get the Catholic Church (which is far too heretical to be called a church) to not oppose him. He also slaughtered the Yehudim (Jews in plain English), who anyone who has read the Bible (both Old and Renewed Testaments) will know are God's chosen people. (you might remember that there is no gentile gate in the New Jerusalem)

And no, I am not a Jew myself. (time is short, but e-mail me and I'll explain in depth if you want)

The point is not which religion those men are. It's what they're not. (eg: Hitler's role as a Christian is disputable, but it's not generally rumoured that he was a muslim).

Originally posted by Remoria
Quite true, we have no way of knowing for sure wether he be or don't be. Well, I never said I knew, I simply pointed out the majority of logic that is in favor of his existence.
There is NO logic in a belief in a beardy bloke in the sky. It is a blind faith. With the emphasis on blind.

What do you know about Islam?

The Koran has many more incitements to peace than violence. It's the religious leaders and politicians that twist it for their own gain.

Quite true. All throughout history those in power have often used existing beliefs and twisted them towards their own goals, the same has been done with Christianity. I have not read the Koran, I freely admit that. Have you read the Holy Scriptures? I HAVE, however, studied the early history of Islam, and it is true that Mohammad changed his core beliefs several times to fit his own goals. Doesn't that put him into the same category as those bad leaders and politicians? I mean no offense my friend, but please think about it.

Please try again without starting from a false assumption. Thanks!

Ah, mockery of the truth. "Hath God really said that you must not eat of the forbidden fruit? Surely you will not die..." Please think deeply on what you say before you say it, we all may be puppets at times without realizing it..

probably no to the first

yes there are too many of you dam humans getting in the way for the new wave of hominids

I present Homo Dyspraxius (Dyspraxic man for you non biology type chappies)

fear my clumsy wrath....


just for the record i'm dyspraxic so i'm allowed to make jokes just in case anybody gets upity (probably you can tell from my spelling (if i've spealt anything wrong I can't actually tell....))

Quite true. All throughout history those in power have often used existing beliefs and twisted them towards their own goals, the same has been done with Christianity. I have not read the Koran, I freely admit that. Have you read the Holy Scriptures? I HAVE, however, studied the early history of Islam, and it is true that Mohammad changed his core beliefs several times to fit his own goals. Doesn't that put him into the same category as those bad leaders and politicians? I mean no offense my friend, but please think about it.
None taken. I was merely pointing out that there are many good muslims, and that you can't judge all of them by the actions of the few. Granted, the islamic states are shitholes, but that's because excessive religion in general leads to oligarchies.

But there's no hate or killing in the bible, right?

God has always given people plenty of time to end their ways. When the Israelites came into Cana'an, there had been more than 300 hundred years of child slaughter, adultery and many more abominations. This was a stench on the Earth, and if you truly think that ending evil through death is evil, do you really think allowing it to continue and get worth good? Besides, there is a final resurrection in the end times, where ALL humanity will rise to be divided, not between good guys and bad guys, but between those who accept the truth when it's not necessarily easy.

Sure, no killing or fixing problems. Barney and the teletubbies is not what the 'light side' is about, you understand.

It was a simple tactic he used to get the Catholic Church (which is far too heretical to be called a church) to not oppose him.

"Heretic" is simply a word used to signify any religious believer which you don't agree with, but who you can't justifiably call an Infidel.

For something to be heretical, it must go against an orthodoxy. I'm not a Catholic (or even a Christian), but, given that Catholicism was the first Christian orthodoxy, calling it heretical is... questionable. At best.

Look up: Old Testament.

Heh, so we let the bad guys live so they can sacrifice infants and sorcery etc? Is ending evil bad itself? So, letting them continue and get worse is good? Think about your beliefs a bit my friend.

Quite true, we have no way of knowing for sure wether he be or don't be. Well, I never said I knew, I simply pointed out the majority of logic that is in favor of his existence. I'm not going to beat you over the head to believe what I believe, because there's no point to that. Why force someone to believe something? It defeats the purpose of it. You are free to believe whatever you wish, as all humanity is, but no matter how much we believe it that doesn't mean it's correct. And yes, I'm aware that applies to me too, but until I'm disproved I have no reason to become an atheist or anything else.
What logic is this? What logic system has brought you to the conclusion that God is real? What logic has led you to think Christianity is the truth? Their are many contradictions of Christianity, as there are with most major religions. Atheism has no contradictions because it is only the description of someone who does not believe in a deity existing.

Two computers...

A lot of people wonder why bad things happen... Well, it's because we're idiots. No matter how good, smart or wise we are, we're still pretty darn, and atleast two-thirds of the problems we face we caused ourselves, but are too proud to accept that....[snip] How many people believe that he's more than a little red dude with a pitch-fork and pointy tale?

Well, I may be just a teen, but I'm not stupid... got pissed really quickly, just ask yourself, 'why'....


I think you are "just a stupid teen". Why? Because this is all stereotypical arrogant Christian bullshit. Honestly, the who actually believes in Satan? He doesn't exist, even if God does (Thats debate-able too). The devil is merely an excuse, something for the Church to blame for all their own faults, and for things that can't possibly be the result of their God.

Yeah, I "got pissed off quickly", but thats because you're talking this like its absolute truth. You know nothing of its truth, and you will never. Ever. You can believe all you want (no one's stopping you), but that doesn't make it universal truth.

Bad things happen because there needs to be a balance in the universe. If there were no "bad things" then there would be nothing to define the "good things", thus life might just as well be utterly meaningless. If there's anything I've ever learned, its that things don't happen because some "person" up (or down) somewhere caused it. They just happen, whether its good or bad is completely personal and subjective, and both good and bad are needed.

And for the record, we cause most of the problems we've ever faced. The only exceptions might be natural disasters and plagues. But there is still prevention. There is no "little red dude with a pitchfork" causing bad events. Honestly, I thought we were above believing that.

Oh, thanks for your opinion though, you're welcome to it, even if its complete nonsense.

EDIT: Just to make sure you know I'm not a complete jerk, this is MY opinion; you don't need to believe it, but like you, I'm welcome to it.

Heh, so we let the bad guys live so they can sacrifice infants and sorcery etc? Is ending evil bad itself? So, letting them continue and get worse is good? Think about your beliefs a bit my friend.
I'm no bible expert, but from what I've read and heard about it, this god of yours is one real prick.

And who's to say that's not the right way to do things? As you say yourself, there are a thousand wrong ways and just one right way. Maybe it's the Muslim way.

Ah, quite a valid point. The thing though, is why. Why would Christianity be right? Why would Islam be right? To be honest, it's quite true that Islam is a hell-of-a-lot closer than most religions (most have multiple gods all warring for control, which would really make no sense. Why did they create the world to begin with? Why not have their own little worlds and work together for an incredible economy and a good way of life? etc), but at the same time Islam is rather unstable. True Islam never states that those who kill non-Muslims are evil, but true Christianity adresses many types of heresy as incorrect, most people just don't pay attention to those many parts (hence the reason most people don't read more than a verse a day, if any).

I do not hate them, but I certainly dissagree with what they believe. I don't hate people, just strongly dissagree. It's the Muslims who'll blow us all up.


You're welcome to disagree with homosexuality, or anything you want. However, its such complete utter idiocy to believe that Muslims will blow us up. You're most likely commenting on terrorist attacks from the Middle East. Guess what; not all terrorists are Muslims, and most Muslims denounce terrorism just as you do. Just because they believe in different things doesn't make them the cause of havoc, and you have to learn to take media with a grain of salt. The media only shows the stuff thats "interesting". You probably won't see a bunch of honest and kind Muslims praying, you'll be hearing the stories of murder, because frankly, thats what sells- the bad.

The fact that the right way to behave is exactly what's a contradiction in your original statement. Logically speaking, the material world should be a reflection of the spiritual one. Therefore, if the definition of good is obvious in the spiritual world, why isn't it in the material world?

I never stated it was obvious in the spiritual realm. Finding the correct way is just as hard in both the physical and spritual realms (and good observation, the spiritual was first, and the physical only based on it)

God has always given people plenty of time to end their ways. When the Israelites came into Cana'an, there had been more than 300 hundred years of child slaughter, adultery and many more abominations. This was a stench on the Earth, and if you truly think that ending evil through death is evil, do you really think allowing it to continue and get worth good? Besides, there is a final resurrection in the end times, where ALL humanity will rise to be divided, not between good guys and bad guys, but between those who accept the truth when it's not necessarily easy.

Sure, no killing or fixing problems. Barney and the teletubbies is not what the 'light side' is about, you understand.

1)Since when is aldultery worthy of death? My dad cheated on my mum; I was mad about it, but I don't exactly want him die!
2) So killing is the only way to end "evil?" I have three poblems with that:
a) sometimes, nonviolent methods are highly effective. Ever heard of Ghandi?
b) If God is ulmightly, surely there would be a better way to handle the situation. Couldn't he just strand the infidels on a deserted island? Or, better yet, wave a magic wand and change their ways?
c) How do we know who's doing the "good" thing and who's being "evil." After all, both evil and good are killing. So what makes the difference?
3) So when's this visit from God? I looked at this week's TV Guide, and there's nothing about it. Not even in the Coming Soon section! Nothing on the IMDB either.

In response to the original poster:

Attributing evil to the devil doesn't really work, since, at least within the Judaeo-Christian mythos, he has no real power, only being able to do what God chooses to allow him to do (as in the book of Job).

If you're a Zoroastrian, the theory works perfectly: Angra Manyu is waaay more of a threat on the cosmic level than Satan is. If you're a Christian, it... doesn't.

Quite true, he only does what he is allowed to do. There is no counterdiction in what I said, only in what you have been told before on Christianity and what the true doctrine is.

I never stated it was obvious in the spiritual realm. Finding the correct way is just as hard in both the physical and spritual realms (and good observation, the spiritual was first, and the physical only based on it)

God=Good. Satan=Bad. What's subtle about that?

Ah, quite a valid point... true Christianity ...[snips]

Question. What makes you think you have "true Christianity"? Is it because its what you believe in? Are you arrogant enough to believe that solely what you believe in is the utter truth? And to think that the bible has been re-written so many times since it was created til the time you read it (if you even did). Honestly, if there was a "true Christianity" (there isn't, like all religions, it evolved), then you wouldn't know much if anything about it, or if its any different from "non-true Christianity"

The point is not which religion those men are. It's what they're not. (eg: Hitler's role as a Christian is disputable, but it's not generally rumoured that he was a muslim).

I'm not a satanist. You're not a satanist. Neither of us are slaughtering people. Does the the absense of evil make us good? Nope. "For man's righteousness is as filthy rags." None of us can be good of our own power, it's just impossible. However, "All things are possible through Christ who strengthens me."

There is NO logic in a belief in a beardy bloke in the sky. It is a blind faith. With the emphasis on blind.

Like I said to the other guy, we're talking about 2 different people now. You're talking about Santa-Claus turned deity, I'm talking about an omnipresent, just and yet merciful Creator. Big difference.

I'm not a satanist. You're not a satanist. Neither of us are slaughtering people. Does the the absense of evil make us good? Nope. "For man's righteousness is as filthy rags." None of us can be good of our own power, it's just impossible. However, "All things are possible through Christ who strengthens me."

1) None of what you said at all pertains to my point. You're avoiding the issue at hand like the plague.
2) Do you even know what the Church of Satan is about? If you go to the website and research, I think you'll find it's not what you think. Maybe you were talking about Luciferianism (sp?).
3) All things are possible, then? So if I want three million dollars and a huge brownie cheescake, I can just pray for it? Oh, and while I'm at it, I'll pray to get in Alexandre Despaties pants.

Quite true, he only does what he is allowed to do. There is no counterdiction in what I said, only in what you have been told before on Christianity and what the true doctrine is.

Perhaps I'm missing your point. How are you defining "true doctrine"?

probably no to the first

yes there are too many of you dam humans getting in the way for the new wave of hominids

I present Homo Dyspraxius (Dyspraxic man for you non biology type chappies)

fear my clumsy wrath....


just for the record i'm dyspraxic so i'm allowed to make jokes just in case anybody gets upity (probably you can tell from my spelling (if i've spealt anything wrong I can't actually tell....))

Well you're an intelligent person for adressing this. "Superior Humans", the 'next step in evolution'. Really, this is just a big ego thing about attempting to be superior to everyone else, or being responsible for this superior race. Heh. Now, the whole current human population could fit in california, with everyone having their own plot of land, and there would be enough of everything for the whole population to live comfortably and peacefully. We don't need to get rid of 'inferior lifeforms', we just have to use common sense and knowledge of reality mixed with our technical and scientific knowledge.

None taken. I was merely pointing out that there are many good muslims, and that you can't judge all of them by the actions of the few. Granted, the islamic states are shitholes, but that's because excessive religion in general leads to oligarchies.

Quite true. I have had a very good friend since grade 1 who is a Muslim. Very great guy, friendly to all. I like him, but he's believing a lie. His choice, and I'm not gonna kill him over it just like he won't me. Now, if he doesn't change, yes, he will go to hell in the end time. I'm not happy over it, but he has free will, and he has his whole life to accept the truth or not. More than fair, if you think about it.

My response to this general topic is,
Yes there is a God, and he is the one and only true God
and yes the Devil does exsist. and God created him BUT, not in an evil form, God created him as an angel, like the rest of the angels, but he rebelled against God, and thats how the devil got to be oversee-er the lake of fire a.k.a. hell.

How do I know there is a God,
The Bible says there is, and the Bible is the word of God, written by God through men, as it says in 2 Timothy 2:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

(that is very very brief, if you want to know more read the Bible or as the pastor of a local church)

Quite true. I have had a very good friend since grade 1 who is a Muslim. Very great guy, friendly to all. I like him, but he's believing a lie. His choice, and I'm not gonna kill him over it just like he won't me. Now, if he doesn't change, yes, he will go to hell in the end time. I'm not happy over it, but he has free will, and he has his whole life to accept the truth or not. More than fair, if you think about it.
So muslims go to hell? Do atheists also go to hell?

"Heretic" is simply a word used to signify any religious believer which you don't agree with, but who you can't justifiably call an Infidel.

For something to be heretical, it must go against an orthodoxy. I'm not a Catholic (or even a Christian), but, given that Catholicism was the first Christian orthodoxy, calling it heretical is... questionable. At best.

When someone claims to be of a certain belief, and then violates a critical part of the concrete doctrine of that belief, that's heresy and hypocritical. Very simple. To give an example, you probably remember the commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods besides me", and how many different deities do the Catholics pray to? Mary, Jesus, baby Jesus (messed up idea in itself), Peter, but do they pray to God himself? Nope. Both sides of my family are Catholic, I have the right to state this. Now, I'm not happy over it, but trying to force someone to believe something would make my a hypocrite, thus defeating any useful purpose.

So muslims go to hell? Do atheists also go to hell?

Of course they do. Those Christians are a very exclusive group ;)

Quite true. I have had a very good friend since grade 1 who is a Muslim. Very great guy, friendly to all. I like him, but he's believing a lie. His choice, and I'm not gonna kill him over it just like he won't me. Now, if he doesn't change, yes, he will go to hell in the end time. I'm not happy over it, but he has free will, and he has his whole life to accept the truth or not. More than fair, if you think about it.

He probably believes the exact same thing about you. So, the question is, why are you right? Is there some piece of evidence that proves your religion over all others? Or are you just going on faith? If you are, I got news: believing something very much does not make it true. Sometimes, it actually makes you mentally ill. You know, delusions of grandeur? But your perfectly sane, as exhibited by your unyielding belief that some omniscient being that lives in the sky loves you more than he loves an awful lot of earth's humans and wants to invite you to his house to share a wonderful, fluffy eternity. Yes, sounds quite sane.

What logic is this? What logic system has brought you to the conclusion that God is real? What logic has led you to think Christianity is the truth? Their are many contradictions of Christianity, as there are with most major religions. Atheism has no contradictions because it is only the description of someone who does not believe in a deity existing.

And that's where you're wrong. How did matter come into being? Two answers you've got: It made itself oO Nothing exploded and made everything, so once nothing made it. How did organs evolve? A partially developed stomach or digestive system won't do squat, so by the "use it or lose it" rule of evolution, we should all still be bacteria. And another thing, how did life come about? "Well, the primordial soup, 2.3 billion years ago." Oh sure, the Earth just opened a can of "Campbell's Primordial Soup."

Those are some serious problems my friend...

Quite true. I have had a very good friend since grade 1 who is a Muslim. Very great guy, friendly to all. I like him, but he's believing a lie. His choice, and I'm not gonna kill him over it just like he won't me. Now, if he doesn't change, yes, he will go to hell in the end time. I'm not happy over it, but he has free will, and he has his whole life to accept the truth or not. More than fair, if you think about it.

Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible that innocents, or people not exposed to christianity, will still go to heaven if they live their lives as good people? "Blessed are the innocents", or something like that.

...Now, if he doesn't change, yes, he will go to hell in the end time. I'm not happy over it, but he has free will, and he has his whole life to accept the truth or not. More than fair, if you think about it.

Personally, I have a pet peeve about the phrase 'if you think about it'- it's far too often used as a condescending way of implying that you haven't.

However, as to the charge that this is 'more than fair':
1) Most legal systems only punish people for what they do, not for what they think. This isn't universal: George Orwell wrote a remarkably good depiction of a society in which this wasn't the case, "1984".
2) Assuming that humanity was formed by a creator deity, that deity would have granted us the intellect we possess. Assuming that this deity is at least reasonably fond of his creations, he should, by any reasonable measure, such a deity should be pleased if we attempt to use this intellect to the best of its ability, even if it may produce incorrect conclusions from time to time.
3) Even if this were not the case: it is generally accepted that, for a law to be just, the transgressor should receive a punishment that fits his crime. It is only possible to commit a finite amount of transgression within a human lifetime, but Hell, as conventionally depicted, involves an infinite period of punishment- a measure which cannot, by any reasonable stretch of the imagination, be called justice.

I think you are "just a stupid teen". Why? Because this is all stereotypical arrogant Christian bullshit. Honestly, the who actually believes in Satan? He doesn't exist, even if God does (Thats debate-able too). The devil is merely an excuse, something for the Church to blame for all their own faults, and for things that can't possibly be the result of their God.

Yeah, I "got pissed off quickly", but thats because you're talking this like its absolute truth. You know nothing of its truth, and you will never. Ever. You can believe all you want (no one's stopping you), but that doesn't make it universal truth.

Bad things happen because there needs to be a balance in the universe. If there were no "bad things" then there would be nothing to define the "good things", thus life might just as well be utterly meaningless. If there's anything I've ever learned, its that things don't happen because some "person" up (or down) somewhere caused it. They just happen, whether its good or bad is completely personal and subjective, and both good and bad are needed.

And for the record, we cause most of the problems we've ever faced. The only exceptions might be natural disasters and plagues. But there is still prevention. There is no "little red dude with a pitchfork" causing bad events. Honestly, I thought we were above believing that.

Oh, thanks for your opinion though, you're welcome to it, even if its complete nonsense.

EDIT: Just to make sure you know I'm not a complete jerk, this is MY opinion; you don't need to believe it, but like you, I'm welcome to it.

Ah, the irony. You've restated a number of the things I've said trying to use them against me. Well, I already addressed absolutely everything you've brought up, just read all my replies to everyone else. Since you've had the time to write up all that, this will hardly be a waste of your time, unless you're afraid of seeing evidence against your beliefs. You are free to think whatever you want to, however, which we have both stated. Still, ignoring all that I said and asking questions that have already been answered is rather stupid, to be honest. Still, my compliments on flawless grammar. You are a great tool for the devil, wether or not he lets you acknowledge it.

And that's where you're wrong. How did matter come into being? Two answers you've got: It made itself oO Nothing exploded and made everything, so once nothing made it. How did organs evolve? A partially developed stomach or digestive system won't do squat, so by the "use it or lose it" rule of evolution, we should all still be bacteria. And another thing, how did life come about? "Well, the primordial soup, 2.3 billion years ago." Oh sure, the Earth just opened a can of "Campbell's Primordial Soup."

Those are some serious problems my friend...

No more problems than creationism has. Seriously, if matter can't have just always been floating around, how could it be that God has always been around? And if things as complex as humans must have been created, and God is infinitely more powerful than human, who the heck created God?
If you have questions about how evolution and the development of organs work, try researching fetal development. It's an echo of evolution, really.
NB: Your recounting of abiogenesis is wrong. It's not the theory that matter created itself. It's the theory that nonliving matter became living matter. I think most scientists now believe that matter has just always been here. It's life we're finding an origin for.

I'm no bible expert, but from what I've read and heard about it, this god of yours is one real prick.

And why shouldn't he be uptight? If you had created humanity, made them perfect and in your image, and then they start blowing each other up, slaughtering their infant forms (babies), and doing tons of stuff you told them not to do for their own good... Well, he certainly has a right to give us a smack every now and then, we never listen otherwise.

And why shouldn't he be uptight? If you had created humanity, made them perfect and in your image, and then they start blowing each other up, slaughtering their infant forms (babies), and doing tons of stuff you told them not to do for their own good... Well, he certainly has a right to give us a smack every now and then, we never listen otherwise.

Yeah, realising that you taught people to behave as you do, despite trying out the "Do as I say, not as I do" rule can be a real pain in the butt. We never like to think that our children will adopt our character flaws.

You're welcome to disagree with homosexuality, or anything you want. However, its such complete utter idiocy to believe that Muslims will blow us up. You're most likely commenting on terrorist attacks from the Middle East. Guess what; not all terrorists are Muslims, and most Muslims denounce terrorism just as you do. Just because they believe in different things doesn't make them the cause of havoc, and you have to learn to take media with a grain of salt. The media only shows the stuff thats "interesting". You probably won't see a bunch of honest and kind Muslims praying, you'll be hearing the stories of murder, because frankly, thats what sells- the bad.

I've already addressed that, and I am under no delusion that Canada could go up in flames at any moment. I'm aware that the media is very selective, and it's helped a lot to control the beliefs of the masses. One reason why TV is a useless piece of crap, a 1-eyed monster and often the family idol. But ya, I've already addressed the Muslims' beliefs, it's on page 4 or 5.

Of course they do. Those Christians are a very exclusive group ;)
True Christians dont care what your religions is, BUT if you dont believe that Jesus Died on the Cross to take away the sin of the world, and then rose again, and that he is coming again someday (no one on earth knows when), and that you are a sinner and confess those sins to God, and admit that you need a savior, you will go to hell.

But it is not exclusive as you say, ANYONE can become a christain, wether you were a Muslim or athiest, you name it you can become a christian
all it takes is to believe with all your heart all the things I said before.

And why shouldn't he be uptight? If you had created humanity, made them perfect and in your image, and then they start blowing each other up, slaughtering their infant forms (babies), and doing tons of stuff you told them not to do for their own good... Well, he certainly has a right to give us a smack every now and then, we never listen otherwise.

I like the way you think, Remorthia.
It's too bad you chose a forum full of godless heathens to post about God. ;)
For the record, I'm on your side.

And that's where you're wrong. How did matter come into being? Two answers you've got: It made itself oO Nothing exploded and made everything, so once nothing made it. How did organs evolve? A partially developed stomach or digestive system won't do squat, so by the "use it or lose it" rule of evolution, we should all still be bacteria. And another thing, how did life come about? "Well, the primordial soup, 2.3 billion years ago." Oh sure, the Earth just opened a can of "Campbell's Primordial Soup."

Those are some serious problems my friend...

Ok. Well tell me how God came into being? Was he *gasp* always there? But how could that be possible? Oh, because he's God and that's your belief? Oh, well in that case.... :rolleyes:
Hypocritical agruement. Very much so.

I'm not going to sit here and teach you the Theory of Evolution, you can try a biology class for that. Here's a summary:
There have been tests done in what is thought to be like the atmosphere of Earth before the first life and it showed that under certain circumstances unliving matter could be combined in such a way that would create living matter, the first cells. Eventually these some cells (prokaryotic) joined together and developed symbiotic relationships and then became more complex cells (eukaryotic). Meanwhile cells, both prokaryotes and eukaryokes began using photosynthesis and thus creating oxygen. This oxygen later allowed plants to come into being and also caused the first mass extinction (of cells which could not handle oxygen). After the plants developed it all spiralled out of control (with mutations and other gene changes) and after millions of years of evolution, here we are.

1)Since when is aldultery worthy of death? My dad cheated on my mum; I was mad about it, but I don't exactly want him die!
2) So killing is the only way to end "evil?" I have three poblems with that:
a) sometimes, nonviolent methods are highly effective. Ever heard of Ghandi?
b) If God is ulmightly, surely there would be a better way to handle the situation. Couldn't he just strand the infidels on a deserted island? Or, better yet, wave a magic wand and change their ways?
c) How do we know who's doing the "good" thing and who's being "evil." After all, both evil and good are killing. So what makes the difference?
3) So when's this visit from God? I looked at this week's TV Guide, and there's nothing about it. Not even in the Coming Soon section! Nothing on the IMDB either.

1) You think God wants him to die? Nope. Plus your father has plenty of time to repent over it.
2) a) Yes, non-violent ways must always be used first. And nope, never heard 'o Ghandi. Enlighten me if you have the time.
b) Darn right he could, but you know what? He's a nice guy. He gives people a looooooot of time to stop what they're doing. Besides, what's the use of having people worship you if you're forcing them? A lot more meaningful if they do it willingly.
c) The motives/reasons. Hitler killed the Jews because he was convinced they were inferior, and did it as quickly and brutally as he possibly could. When the Israelites were sent into Cana'an, it had been easily 300 years since they really started going bad, plenty of time to stop their child slaughter.
3) "No man knows the day nor the hour; only my father in heaven knows." If we knew, then what would be the point? The whole idea is that we have to get ready for something that we're not sure when is going to happen. If we all knew when, then everyone (most people atleast) would just repent a day, or a couple minutes before, and then everyone's all happy. Nope. No reason to do it at all then.

god rockus my sockus, humans suck, and existential thought is a waste of time. even calling this a waste of time is a waste of time? why must i be in control of everything that i do? causality screwed everything that i believed in up. oh god! oh no - there is no god! oh crap. who cares?

God=Good. Satan=Bad. What's subtle about that?

You're friend is smoking crack. What should you do? ... Well, there's a million different things you could do, and how would you know which one would be the best? (there are others that aren't optimal, and thus not good, simply because there is a better solution) Tricky thing to fix up, so I think it's pretty obvious that the right way is not obvious.

Question. What makes you think you have "true Christianity"? Is it because its what you believe in? Are you arrogant enough to believe that solely what you believe in is the utter truth? And to think that the bible has been re-written so many times since it was created til the time you read it (if you even did). Honestly, if there was a "true Christianity" (there isn't, like all religions, it evolved), then you wouldn't know much if anything about it, or if its any different from "non-true Christianity"

Actually, the Renewed Testament is really like a commentary/fullfillment of the Old Testament, an expansion pack, if you will. The Hebrew scribes have been VERY meticulous in their copying of the scriptures. It's not ME that has the ultimate truth, it's the Holy Scriptures. Now, most of us simply don't have the time to learn Hebrew and read it the way it was meant to be read, so we get a translation. THAT is what you refer to as it being "re-written", as it hasn't been otherwise throughout history, just added onto (if people's lives were already written out, that would change what they would do, and many other things. Study time paradoxes and you'll know what I mean). Don't take my word for the truth, look into it. Otherwise it's blind faith, and that's just stupid.

1) None of what you said at all pertains to my point. You're avoiding the issue at hand like the plague.
2) Do you even know what the Church of Satan is about? If you go to the website and research, I think you'll find it's not what you think. Maybe you were talking about Luciferianism (sp?).
3) All things are possible, then? So if I want three million dollars and a huge brownie cheescake, I can just pray for it? Oh, and while I'm at it, I'll pray to get in Alexandre Despaties pants.

No, asking for cash and a brownie is being lazy. Really damn lazy. And asking to get laid? ... Apparently you haven't exactly done your research either. There very defination of a "Church of Satan" is a congregation of people that Worships Satan. Now, if not an attempt to refute the Bible, why and how else was this started? Think logically my friend. Hitler said he was a good guy, but we all know damn well he wasn't. With a title like "Church of Satan", this should be a lot more obvious...

You're friend is smoking crack. What should you do? ... Well, there's a million different things you could do, and how would you know which one would be the best? (there are others that aren't optimal, and thus not good, simply because there is a better solution) Tricky thing to fix up, so I think it's pretty obvious that the right way is not obvious.

Again, you're not adressing the issue. Smoking crack is a problem in the material world. It's not a problem in the spiritual world. Try again with some real evidence that the SPIRITUAL world is not black-and-white.

Perhaps I'm missing your point. How are you defining "true doctrine"?

Quite simply, what the Scriptures say. In English there does seem to be loopholes, but that's simply because it wasn't written in English. English is quite a mucked-up language, if you study linguistics, and it is very easy to pick up the wrong meaning of what is said. But, if you read it and it doesn't make sense, think about the other definitions of the words and they're uses. The Bible isn't mucked up, the universal language is.

No, asking for cash and a brownie is being lazy. Really damn lazy. And asking to get laid? ... Apparently you haven't exactly done your research either. There very defination of a "Church of Satan" is a congregation of people that Worships Satan. Now, if not an attempt to refute the Bible, why and how else was this started? Think logically my friend. Hitler said he was a good guy, but we all know damn well he wasn't. With a title like "Church of Satan", this should be a lot more obvious...

The church of Satan is a group of atheists that have too much time on their hands. They don't worship Satan. They don't even believe that he (or God) exists. They simply wish to indulge in activities viewed by the church as being Satanic, ie the carnal pleasures. I've done my research; I know all about it.

My response to this general topic is,
Yes there is a God, and he is the one and only true God
and yes the Devil does exsist. and God created him BUT, not in an evil form, God created him as an angel, like the rest of the angels, but he rebelled against God, and thats how the devil got to be oversee-er the lake of fire a.k.a. hell.

How do I know there is a God,
The Bible says there is, and the Bible is the word of God, written by God through men, as it says in 2 Timothy 2:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

(that is very very brief, if you want to know more read the Bible or as the pastor of a local church)

So very true :) Only one thing I would dissagree on though. Satan isn't in charge of hell. You may remember in the book of Luke when Yeshua (Jesus, in the greek way) cast out "Legion" ("For we are many"), they begged him not to send them to the pit. Well, if Satan were in charge, he could bust them out no problem, but he isn't. Keep up with your studying, you certainly know your stuff ;)

(and interesting thing is that he had mercy on the demons. If he isn't the greatest, nobody is [save God himself, but you know that])

1) You think God wants him to die? Nope. Plus your father has plenty of time to repent over it.
2) a) Yes, non-violent ways must always be used first. And nope, never heard 'o Ghandi. Enlighten me if you have the time.
b) Darn right he could, but you know what? He's a nice guy. He gives people a looooooot of time to stop what they're doing. Besides, what's the use of having people worship you if you're forcing them? A lot more meaningful if they do it willingly.
c) The motives/reasons. Hitler killed the Jews because he was convinced they were inferior, and did it as quickly and brutally as he possibly could. When the Israelites were sent into Cana'an, it had been easily 300 years since they really started going bad, plenty of time to stop their child slaughter.
3) "No man knows the day nor the hour; only my father in heaven knows." If we knew, then what would be the point? The whole idea is that we have to get ready for something that we're not sure when is going to happen. If we all knew when, then everyone (most people atleast) would just repent a day, or a couple minutes before, and then everyone's all happy. Nope. No reason to do it at all then.

1)Why don't you Google Ghandi? I've got a date with a pilates DVD that I'm 15 minutes late for.
2) What's the point in having people worship you at all. Isn't that kind of vain? Doesn't God preach against vanity?
3) Ah, but motives and reasons are still subjective. Maybe Hitler thought he was right. Maybe he was right *watches contraversy ensue* Who's to say who's beliefs are correct?

So muslims go to hell? Do atheists also go to hell?

Regretfully, after the final judgement, yes. No matter how good any of us are, we can't bribe our way into heaven. (We don't go to heaven or hell [or limbo] when we die, we're just dead. At the end of time itself there will be the judgement though, but we've all been warned)

So muslims go to hell? Do atheists also go to hell?

Regretfully, after the final judgement, yes. No matter how good any of us are, we can't bribe our way into heaven. (We don't go to heaven or hell [or limbo] when we die, we're just dead. At the end of time itself there will be the judgement though, but we've all been warned, free-will and such.)

So muslims go to hell? Do atheists also go to hell?

Regretfully, after the final judgement, yes. No matter how good any of us are, we can't bribe our way into heaven. (We don't go to heaven or hell [or limbo] when we die, we're just dead. At the end of time itself there will be the judgement though, but we've all been warned, free-will and such.)

Quite simply, what the Scriptures say. In English there does seem to be loopholes, but that's simply because it wasn't written in English. English is quite a mucked-up language, if you study linguistics, and it is very easy to pick up the wrong meaning of what is said. But, if you read it and it doesn't make sense, think about the other definitions of the words and they're uses. The Bible isn't mucked up, the universal language is.

In which case, I fail to see the contradiction between "what you have been told before on Christianity and what the true doctrine is." Given that I've been studying the biblical texts and associated material for the past three years. Christianity (particularly 'Mere Christianity', as C.S.Lewis would have put it), simply isn't an accuate reflection of the majority of scripture, or of the Deuteronomistic worldview which formed it.

On a side note, if you're geniunely interested in finding out more about the Deuteromistic worldview, I would heartily recommend the books "The Gods of the Nations" by Daniel I. Block, "Among the Host of Heaven" by Lowell K. Handy and "Goddesses and Trees, New Moon and Yahweh" by Othmar Keel. I found all three to be excellent reads, although I would recommend that they be approached with an open mind.

Quite simply, what the Scriptures say. In English there does seem to be loopholes, but that's simply because it wasn't written in English. English is quite a mucked-up language, if you study linguistics, and it is very easy to pick up the wrong meaning of what is said. But, if you read it and it doesn't make sense, think about the other definitions of the words and they're uses. The Bible isn't mucked up, the universal language is.

In which case, I fail to see the contradiction between "what you have been told before on Christianity and what the true doctrine is." Given that I've been studying the biblical texts and associated material for the past three years. Christianity (particularly 'Mere Christianity', as C.S.Lewis would have put it), simply isn't an accuate reflection of the majority of scripture, or of the Deuteronomistic worldview which formed it.

On a side note, if you're geniunely interested in finding out more about the Deuteromistic worldview, I would heartily recommend the books "The Gods of the Nations" by Daniel I. Block, "Among the Host of Heaven" by Lowell K. Handy and "Goddesses and Trees, New Moon and Yahweh" by Othmar Keel. I found all three to be excellent reads, although I would recommend that they be approached with an open mind.

Of course they do. Those Christians are a very exclusive group ;)

Everyone is free to choose as they will. No one's going to stop you from going to hell if you're deturmined to go. Not to happy about it, but no one can stop you.

He probably believes the exact same thing about you. So, the question is, why are you right? Is there some piece of evidence that proves your religion over all others? Or are you just going on faith? If you are, I got news: believing something very much does not make it true. Sometimes, it actually makes you mentally ill. You know, delusions of grandeur? But your perfectly sane, as exhibited by your unyielding belief that some omniscient being that lives in the sky loves you more than he loves an awful lot of earth's humans and wants to invite you to his house to share a wonderful, fluffy eternity. Yes, sounds quite sane.

Nope, that's insane, which is why I don't believe that. "I do not take pleasure in the death of the wicked." God said that. Now by saying that he does, well, that's calling him a liar. Well, then we go into supposed counterdictions.

What he really says is that "All who believe upon me shall be saved." He's not forcing anyone to not believe. If sanity is delusion, then we're all monkeys' nephews.

Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible that innocents, or people not exposed to christianity, will still go to heaven if they live their lives as good people? "Blessed are the innocents", or something like that.

A very good point. If someone doesn't know, and has never even heard of the truth... They're not responsible for that. Mercy is shown to then, because they can't help not knowing something (it's willfull ignorance that's not good).

all my knowledge comes from the input of my senses. because i sense, i exist. what does it matter whether i exist in a computer or in the imagination of an expansive deity? all that matters is that i enjoy the sensations that my creator, random or predetermined, gave me. i sense, therefore i am.

namaste.

A very good point. If someone doesn't know, and has never even heard of the truth... They're not responsible for that. Mercy is shown to then, because they can't help not knowing something (it's willfull ignorance that's not good).

LOL! The Christians are talking about "willful ignorance" :D That made my day :D

Nope, that's insane, which is why I don't believe that. "I do not take pleasure in the death of the wicked." God said that. Now by saying that he does, well, that's calling him a liar. Well, then we go into supposed counterdictions.

What he really says is that "All who believe upon me shall be saved." He's not forcing anyone to not believe. If sanity is delusion, then we're all monkeys' nephews.

You didn't answer the question: Why are you right about God? How do you know that your Muslim friend believes "a lie?" Were you there when God said these things? Did he ever speak them directly to you? Have you seen him? Answer the question!

Regretfully, after the final judgement, yes. No matter how good any of us are, we can't bribe our way into heaven. (We don't go to heaven or hell [or limbo] when we die, we're just dead. At the end of time itself there will be the judgement though, but we've all been warned)
If this god of yours is going to send me to hell simply because I don't believe in him, then he must be really insecure about himself. Are you sure the bible doesn't say anything about god having a mental disorder ? Because it sounds to me like he's a narcissistic psychopath.

Besides, what makes Christians so special?

You didn't answer the question: Why are you right about God? How do you know that your Muslim friend believes "a lie?" Were you there when God said these things? Did he ever speak them directly to you? Have you seen him? Answer the question!
If god spoke to me, I would check myself into Bellevue. :D

You didn't answer the question: Why are you right about God? How do you know that your Muslim friend believes "a lie?" Were you there when God said these things? Did he ever speak them directly to you? Have you seen him? Answer the question!

I think orthodox christian thought calls Mohammad a descendant of Kane (In case you don't know what that means you should read the story of Kane and Able, in which Kane kills Able and he and his line are cursed forever). Therefore, his Muslim friend is wrong because he is practicing a religion created by a "cursed" man. Also, because it is really just an update on Christianity (just as Christianity is updating Judaism) it is considered by orthodox christian thought as being a "perverted" form of Christianity.

Two computers can argue all they want about wether or not humans exist, or wether we're just a figment of the videogames that they so frequently run... Well, wether or not they think we don't exist, we do. And even if we have a poll on wether or not God exists, I'm not too sure that'll change his mind on being in control.


You're right. Believing, or not believing, in God doesn't change the fact that he doesn't exist!


I can guarrantee you that there's a lot more going around than we can see, and it isn't Evlis in a space ship or parallel dimensions...

How can you guarantee that it's NOT Elvis in a space ship... when you yourself have already argued that you wouldn't know any more than a computer would know about whether humans exist?

Your own logic has bit you in the ass and made your whole thread irrelevant.

Personally, I have a pet peeve about the phrase 'if you think about it'- it's far too often used as a condescending way of implying that you haven't.

However, as to the charge that this is 'more than fair':
1) Most legal systems only punish people for what they do, not for what they think. This isn't universal: George Orwell wrote a remarkably good depiction of a society in which this wasn't the case, "1984".
2) Assuming that humanity was formed by a creator deity, that deity would have granted us the intellect we possess. Assuming that this deity is at least reasonably fond of his creations, he should, by any reasonable measure, such a deity should be pleased if we attempt to use this intellect to the best of its ability, even if it may produce incorrect conclusions from time to time.
3) Even if this were not the case: it is generally accepted that, for a law to be just, the transgressor should receive a punishment that fits his crime. It is only possible to commit a finite amount of transgression within a human lifetime, but Hell, as conventionally depicted, involves an infinite period of punishment- a measure which cannot, by any reasonable stretch of the imagination, be called justice.

True, that is the general meaning of the term. However, in this use I simply mean to think on it more. We all overlook things (and yes, myself included), but this is why there are so many people around. We all should help refine each other.
1) Ah, 1984. I read that book. Don't forget that he was a Socialist, and this was his idea of an ideal Socialist society (though everyone interpretted it as a warning, and to avoid that path). I've read it, and it's not that the people were "punished" for what they thought, they were put in a condition where they were tortured to the point where they would willing accept anything told them, and continue believing that full-heartedly even afterwards. The big difference is that Big Brother's 'redemption' (if it could be called that) was eventually to be forced on everyone, and quite a painful process. God's redemption is free, and optional, and you don't need to seel it in your own blood.
2) Quite true. Still, there are many things which he has already explained, and due to our intellect he expects us to take his advice every now and then atleast, to avoid ourselves problems. (a programmer whatching his AI's walk around bumping into walls makes him cry... but when he gives them the coding to walk around intelligently, and they don't..... Well, he'll cry harder)
3) Time is a temporary thing. When time finally runs out, I personally doubt that we will be aware of much more than the present moment, and whatever facts/information we have gained. Besides, it's very easy to avoid. Also, we should remember that we bear the faults of our forefathers. We're inherently sinfull because our great-great-great- -great-grandfather Adam did it. Since our blood came from him, and he willingly defiled that blood (the snake wasn't shoving it down his throught), we inheritted that blood, and thus are also guilty. For such a stupid mistake, why wouldn't it be harsh? Adam was given authority over all creation, but when he obeyed the devil, he gave that authority over to him. Since the devil's punishment was to be the lake of fire, and we made ourselves his henchman, it's perfectly logical for us to deserver his fate, with the exception of anyone who willfully returns to God. This is why God doesn't intervene unless someone is willing, he gave this world to us and he doesn't go back on his word.
Angels aren't quite so similar to humans as we usually think, they don't have creative ability, very similar to computers (though far more efficient, and they don't crash so easily), so Lucifer especially had no excuse to dissobey, thus making his punishment very severe.

I think orthodox christian thought calls Mohammad a descendant of Kane (In case you don't know what that means you should read the story of Kane and Able, in which Kane kills Able and he and his line are cursed forever). Therefore, his Muslim friend is wrong because he is practicing a religion created by a "cursed" man. Also, because it is really just an update on Christianity (just as Christianity is updating Judaism) it is considered by orthodox christian thought as being a "perverted" form of Christianity.
Good point. Mohammad even said that Jesus was true as where all the major pepole in biblicle history. I don't think it is wrong, I think it was "The Thing" giving a 2nd chance to those that missed out on Jesus.
P.S. As for "The Thing", thare is no god for "It" is not of any sex. I'm a Chistian if you didn't notice.

No more problems than creationism has. Seriously, if matter can't have just always been floating around, how could it be that God has always been around? And if things as complex as humans must have been created, and God is infinitely more powerful than human, who the heck created God?
If you have questions about how evolution and the development of organs work, try researching fetal development. It's an echo of evolution, really.
NB: Your recounting of abiogenesis is wrong. It's not the theory that matter created itself. It's the theory that nonliving matter became living matter. I think most scientists now believe that matter has just always been here. It's life we're finding an origin for.

If God were bound by physical laws, he wouldn't be God. Thus, he is not bound by physical laws, but is in the permanent realm, the spiritual realm, upon which the physical is based. Once again, noone created God, because then he wouldn't be God.
Even if the whole world signed a petition for water to be dry, that wouldn't change anything. Besides, even if we did create life in a labratory, that would only be under perfect conditions, and would prove that you need intelligence to do it.

Yeah, realising that you taught people to behave as you do, despite trying out the "Do as I say, not as I do" rule can be a real pain in the butt. We never like to think that our children will adopt our character flaws.

So very true.

I like the way you think, Remorthia.
It's too bad you chose a forum full of godless heathens to post about God. ;)
For the record, I'm on your side.

Well, it's like our savior said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor." My thanks for the support, "as iron sharpens iron."

Well, it's like our savior said, "The sick do not need a doctor."

I bet he wouldn't say that if he was bleeding from the rectum.

I bet he wouldn't say that if he was bleeding from the rectum.
:D

If God were bound by physical laws, he wouldn't be God. Thus, he is not bound by physical laws, but is in the permanent realm, the spiritual realm, upon which the physical is based. Once again, noone created God, because then he wouldn't be God.
Even if the whole world signed a petition for water to be dry, that wouldn't change anything. Besides, even if we did create life in a labratory, that would only be under perfect conditions, and would prove that you need intelligence to do it.

1) That's inane logic. It's the classic creationist cop-out. To be frank, it's a load of crap. It's a silly little "God is Almighty, therefore you are wrong" argument simple enough that a two-year-old could master it.
2) That experiment would prove nothing. It might show that intelligence can create life, but it in no way shows that life has to be created by intelligence. Sure, life might need certain conditions, but if the universe is infinite, it should logically contain a planet with every possible combination of conditions, making abiogenesis much more likely.

Ok. Well tell me how God came into being? Was he *gasp* always there? But how could that be possible? Oh, because he's God and that's your belief? Oh, well in that case.... :rolleyes:
Hypocritical agruement. Very much so.

I'm not going to sit here and teach you the Theory of Evolution, you can try a biology class for that. Here's a summary:
There have been tests done in what is thought to be like the atmosphere of Earth before the first life and it showed that under certain circumstances unliving matter could be combined in such a way that would create living matter, the first cells. Eventually these some cells (prokaryotic) joined together and developed symbiotic relationships and then became more complex cells (eukaryotic). Meanwhile cells, both prokaryotes and eukaryokes began using photosynthesis and thus creating oxygen. This oxygen later allowed plants to come into being and also caused the first mass extinction (of cells which could not handle oxygen). After the plants developed it all spiralled out of control (with mutations and other gene changes) and after millions of years of evolution, here we are.

God was around before the physical realm, before time. He made time. So, if he MADE time, why would he have a time of creation? THAT, is the counterdiction. It is very true that only one thing needs to be disproved in a theory for it to be correct, unless the whole thing is changed to fit the new evidence. The thing is, Darwin himself said that "..even instincts as simple as bees building a hive could overthrough my whole theory." Any 'missing link' will nullify the whole chain, so even if what you have stated if entirely correct... Where to from there? There are many creatures in existence today that very seriously challenge evolution. Besides, after all that study and research, doesn't that prove that conditions would have to be just-so for life to exist, and thus requiring intelligence anyways?

1) That's inane logic. It's the classic creationist cop-out. To be frank, it's a load of crap. It's a silly little "God is Almighty, therefore you are wrong" argument simple enough that a two-year-old could master it.
2) That experiment would prove nothing. It might show that intelligence can create life, but it in no way shows that life has to be created by intelligence. Sure, life might need certain conditions, but if the universe is infinite, it should logically contain a planet with every possible combination of conditions, making abiogenesis much more likely.


He will defeat your puny reasons with a Sword of Logic Immunity +3.

god rockus my sockus, humans suck, and existential thought is a waste of time. even calling this a waste of time is a waste of time? why must i be in control of everything that i do? causality screwed everything that i believed in up. oh god! oh no - there is no god! oh crap. who cares?

Riiiiiiiiiight..... We're all not really here, we just think we are.... Um, more than 2,000 years of recorded history dissagrees with that. Plus your choice to call yourself "Fetus Murder" doesn't exactly reflect a very intelligent mind. What would you say if your fetus were 'murdered'? Besides, 3 millimeters to the Shift key. It's not that hard to punctuate your sentences...

Again, you're not adressing the issue. Smoking crack is a problem in the material world. It's not a problem in the spiritual world. Try again with some real evidence that the SPIRITUAL world is not black-and-white.

Since we don't have any physical examples of something that isn't physical, we have to use other examples that simply reflect its nature. Besides, if the spiritual world were black-and-white, it would thus be binary. Now, when you compare binary, which is how computers are programmed, for instance, to a more complicated system like the deca-system, binary is incapable of anything more that it is programmed to do, while higher systems with more variables enables creativity, and is part of free-will (my apologies for the run-on sentence). Multiple choices, in other words. Since the physical world is based off the Spiritual one, it's logical that the physical wouldn't more more complex than the Spiritual, since it's only temporary. It's impossible to give concrete evidence for something that is not tangible, thus we really only can speculate on certain things, though most we can discover through prolongued research (and just thinking about it a large amount).

Since we don't have any physical examples of something that isn't physical, we have to use other examples that simply reflect its nature. Besides, if the spiritual world were black-and-white, it would thus be binary. Now, when you compare binary, which is how computers are programmed, for instance, to a more complicated system like the deca-system, binary is incapable of anything more that it is programmed to do, while higher systems with more variables enables creativity, and is part of free-will (my apologies for the run-on sentence). Multiple choices, in other words. Since the physical world is based off the Spiritual one, it's logical that the physical wouldn't more more complex than the Spiritual, since it's only temporary. It's impossible to give concrete evidence for something that is not tangible, thus we really only can speculate on certain things, though most we can discover through prolongued research (and just thinking about it a large amount).

My point exactly. Therefore, if the physical world can't be more complex than the spiritual world, why do religious people view the spiritual world as black-and-white? You know, God is Good, Satan is Bad, no exceptions.

The church of Satan is a group of atheists that have too much time on their hands. They don't worship Satan. They don't even believe that he (or God) exists. They simply wish to indulge in activities viewed by the church as being Satanic, ie the carnal pleasures. I've done my research; I know all about it.

There you have it, one big counterdiction right there: They're a church of something which they deny, and do not in any way worship who they name themselves after, not to mention that being a church of something which is negatively viewed by the church is lunacy.

God was around before the physical realm, before time. He made time. So, if he MADE time, why would he have a time of creation? THAT, is the counterdiction. It is very true that only one thing needs to be disproved in a theory for it to be correct, unless the whole thing is changed to fit the new evidence. The thing is, Darwin himself said that "..even instincts as simple as bees building a hive could overthrough my whole theory." Any 'missing link' will nullify the whole chain, so even if what you have stated if entirely correct... Where to from there? There are many creatures in existence today that very seriously challenge evolution. Besides, after all that study and research, doesn't that prove that conditions would have to be just-so for life to exist, and thus requiring intelligence anyways?

You say God was always there, but discount the possibly of matter always being there. That is called hypocracy. Learn it, love it; it is the basis of Christianity.

The difference between religious dogma and scientific theory is that theory can be changed based on new evidence, while dogma must be replaced or left alone. But that matters little for religion, because it is not based on facts, new information means nothing to religion.

What are these creatures that challenge evolution?

And being as the universe includes an obscene amount of planets, its not as if it isn't possible that one (if not more) planets to, by sheer chance, to happen to be in the right location and have the right materials to sustain life. Once you have the planet it all goes to the theory I already discussed. Intelligence is not required to win the lottery, although things do have to be just-so for it to happen.

There you have it, one big counterdiction right there: They're a church of something which they deny, and do not in any way worship who they name themselves after, not to mention that being a church of something which is negatively viewed by the church is lunacy.

Want to look it up yourself? Here's the official website: http://www.churchofsatan.com

If you actually posses the presence of mind to read through the site, you might find that Satanists worship not a being called Satan but the carnal pleasures and activities that Satan represents. But, knowing you, you won't even look.

1)Why don't you Google Ghandi? I've got a date with a pilates DVD that I'm 15 minutes late for.
2) What's the point in having people worship you at all. Isn't that kind of vain? Doesn't God preach against vanity?
3) Ah, but motives and reasons are still subjective. Maybe Hitler thought he was right. Maybe he was right *watches contraversy ensue* Who's to say who's beliefs are correct?

1) My time is as valuable as yours, and I would recommend exercising in the morning like I do to save time in the evening. As you know google isn't that specific in it's search unless you know exactly what you're searching for, which in this case would defeat the purpose.
2) He created us to share in what he's created, and to help create things ourselves (though to a lesser extent). Think of it as a similar way that a teacher feels about his/her students; he/she wants them to grow in knowledge and experience in whatever they are learning. God didn't create us just to worship him, otherwise he would've made a bunch of automatons, though it doesn't exactly hurt to give him the respect he deserves.
3) If his motives were good, I doubt that he'd've done what he's done. None of us have the right to deturmine what is absolute truth, but from the facts, information and history around us, we can logically assume that a certain belief is correct.

...Also, we should remember that we bear the faults of our forefathers. We're inherently sinfull because our great-great-great- -great-grandfather Adam did it. Since our blood came from him, and he willingly defiled that blood (the snake wasn't shoving it down his throught), we inheritted that blood, and thus are also guilty. For such a stupid mistake, why wouldn't it be harsh? Adam was given authority over all creation, but when he obeyed the devil, he gave that authority over to him.

Well... quite apart from whether it's reasonable to blame someone's distant descendants for something their ancestor did, we're pretty sure that Genesis 3 is one of the biblical texts which suffered the heaviest Deuteronomistic editing. In all probability, it originally heavily featured the goddess Asherah (who most contemporary scholars agree was probably worshipped as the consort of El/Yahweh). Asherah's primary symbols were the tree and the serpent, and she was strongly associated with wisdom, life, and rebirth. There are also entymological links between the names of Eve and Asherah, suggesting that "Adam" was originally intended to be used in it's gender-neutral sense of "humanity". Obviously, the story's been fairly thoroughly mangled by the removal of one of the main dramatis personae, but, given that the Ugaritic texts consistently depict Asherah as a kind, generous goddess, and also as quite capable of acting independently of her husband, the original narrative was probably vaguely comparable to the Prometheus story in Greek myth, with Asherah bestowing generous gifts opon humanity, and El/Yahweh becoming angry, and severing the link between Asherah and her children.

Obviously, that's a very quick synopsis, but that's basically it.

In which case, I fail to see the contradiction between "what you have been told before on Christianity and what the true doctrine is." Given that I've been studying the biblical texts and associated material for the past three years. Christianity (particularly 'Mere Christianity', as C.S.Lewis would have put it), simply isn't an accuate reflection of the majority of scripture, or of the Deuteronomistic worldview which formed it.

On a side note, if you're geniunely interested in finding out more about the Deuteromistic worldview, I would heartily recommend the books "The Gods of the Nations" by Daniel I. Block, "Among the Host of Heaven" by Lowell K. Handy and "Goddesses and Trees, New Moon and Yahweh" by Othmar Keel. I found all three to be excellent reads, although I would recommend that they be approached with an open mind.

Ah, you certainly know your stuff on this, the tetragramaton, (YHVH, Yod Hey Vav Hey, in the Hebrew). I will certainly look into these, I've been studying this for quite a while now, and we can never truly know too much.
(unless it be a bad thing, in which we need not know any of it, but this you already know)

all my knowledge comes from the input of my senses. because i sense, i exist. what does it matter whether i exist in a computer or in the imagination of an expansive deity? all that matters is that i enjoy the sensations that my creator, random or predetermined, gave me. i sense, therefore i am.

namaste.

We still don't have any absolute proof that Atomic theory is correct. It very likely to be true, but not for certain. Still, to imply that more than 2,500 years of recorded history is bogus, as well as the present, is lunacy. Did your sense of sight not tell you that you did not capitalize your sentences? To assume that we are not really here, that 'here' isn't actually here, is crazy. I cannot argue with you because your assumptions are that nothing is actually real, save what our senses perceive, and even then you state that such is still possibly the result of chance. Coherency cannot respond to entropy, when the entropy is so total.

I bet he wouldn't say that if he was bleeding from the rectum.

Brilliant statement. Your coherency is lacking, since your statements means nothing it neither proves nor argues towards anything, I would suggest thinking before you type.

Heh-heh, well people on cocaine usually aren't smart enough to start they're sentences with capital letters, or to make coherent statements, so think on that my friend ;)
For someone who has deceided to become a grammar nazi and belittle people you sure don't know how to use proper homonyms.

their*

And also, for someone who criticizes another for not making coherent statements...

1) That's inane logic. It's the classic creationist cop-out. To be frank, it's a load of crap. It's a silly little "God is Almighty, therefore you are wrong" argument simple enough that a two-year-old could master it.
2) That experiment would prove nothing. It might show that intelligence can create life, but it in no way shows that life has to be created by intelligence. Sure, life might need certain conditions, but if the universe is infinite, it should logically contain a planet with every possible combination of conditions, making abiogenesis much more likely.

No, God is almighty and thus no matter what any of us thinks, he's right. The point is not that anyone is wrong, it's that they have to option to be right.

Also, you can drop any form of bomb you want on a pile of parts (whatever size and of whatever consistency you want) indefinately, and I guarrantee you 100% that it'll never become a car, not a jaguar, and nor even one that will just barely work. Ever. Now, if we know a car can't form through chance, how could we assume that a much more comlicated system like a lifeform would?

We still don't have any absolute proof that Atomic theory is correct. It very likely to be true, but not for certain.
We don't make scientific laws anymore, every current theory is thought to be a good model until debunked and then replaced.

Still, to imply that more than 2,500 years of recorded history is bogus, as well as the present, is lunacy.
No it isn't. I could have fabricated it all in my head. You might be a figment of my imagination.

Did your sense of sight not tell you that you did not capitalize your sentences?
What's with this crap about appointing yourself a post editor?

Coherency cannot respond to entropy, when the entropy is so total.
You don't know what either coherency or entropy are, do you?

I'm sure you don't, if you did, you wouldn't use them like this.

We still don't have any absolute proof that Atomic theory is correct. It very likely to be true, but not for certain. Still, to imply that more than 2,500 years of recorded history is bogus, as well as the present, is lunacy. Did your sense of sight not tell you that you did not capitalize your sentences? To assume that we are not really here, that 'here' isn't actually here, is crazy. I cannot argue with you because your assumptions are that nothing is actually real, save what our senses perceive, and even then you state that such is still possibly the result of chance. Coherency cannot respond to entropy, when the entropy is so total.

Let me just say something at this point about the theories that most atheists go on. We go on what makes the most sense. We aren't claiming absolute truth. If we were there would be no reason to keep updating the theories with new evidence and hypothesis. And you are completely using the red herring agruement when you use things like incorrect grammar to take away from someone's agruement. Whether or not he capitalizes sentences has nothing to do with the agruement itself. Religion claims to know the absolute truth and ignores new evidence. That is why most atheists do not believe in God, because it is the least reasonable idea, not because they think they know the absolute truth of the universe.

No, God is almighty and thus no matter what any of us thinks, he's right. The point is not that anyone is wrong, it's that they have to option to be right.
This statment relies on the assumption that this god of yours exists. Prove that it does.

Also, you can drop any form of bomb you want on a pile of parts (whatever size and of whatever consistency you want) indefinately, and I guarrantee you 100% that it'll never become a car, not a jaguar, and nor even one that will just barely work. Ever. Now, if we know a car can't form through chance, how could we assume that a much more comlicated system like a lifeform would?
complicated*

For one thing, life is not something that just popped out of the ether in its present form. It took a lot of evolution over millions of years for life to get to this stage. Your analogies are terrible. Furthermore, while the probability that a car would pop out of an explosion is so small as to be considered negligible, there is a tiny chance that it could happen. We'd just have to wait many times longer than the age of the universe for it to occur.

Neither do I, I'm no wiccan and I'm glad you're smart enough not to be. :)
Oh, real mature, attacking other religions! Don't act like your beliefs are so much more reasonable.

Good point. Mohammad even said that Jesus was true as where all the major pepole in biblicle history. I don't think it is wrong, I think it was "The Thing" giving a 2nd chance to those that missed out on Jesus.
P.S. As for "The Thing", thare is no god for "It" is not of any sex. I'm a Chistian if you didn't notice.

No, I didn't notice. If mohammad were to state anything that did not agree with any part of the Bible, he would be a heretic. Since he agreed with Yeshua, and Yeshua (Jesus, in the heathen greek) stated that "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fullfill", therefore he must agree with all of scripture, otherwise he counterdicts himself. Also, that would be the world's 3rd chance, and there would be no point to it, as people today are still able to redeem their souls through the Messiah. No one can miss-out except willfully.

You're right. Believing, or not believing, in God doesn't change the fact that he doesn't exist!

How can you guarantee that it's NOT Elvis in a space ship... when you yourself have already argued that you wouldn't know any more than a computer would know about whether humans exist?

Your own logic has bit you in the ass and made your whole thread irrelevant.

Hardly. I said that it was akin to two computers discussing wether or not humans exist, I did not say that they would have no reason to believe one way or the other. Even so, we all know damn-well that computers were made by us, so why not use our supposed intellect to assume somebody made us? And really, Evlis flying around with little grey men is too stupid for words. First, what's so big on Elvis? Famous musician, that's it. There is absolutely no reason to assume he's flying around out there, not any reason to wonder why. It's irrelevant. HOWEVER, wether or not there is a supreme omnipotent being does affect us, as it deals with many trains of thought which we pursue.

I think orthodox christian thought calls Mohammad a descendant of Kane (In case you don't know what that means you should read the story of Kane and Able, in which Kane kills Able and he and his line are cursed forever). Therefore, his Muslim friend is wrong because he is practicing a religion created by a "cursed" man. Also, because it is really just an update on Christianity (just as Christianity is updating Judaism) it is considered by orthodox christian thought as being a "perverted" form of Christianity.

You may remember that Kane lived before the flood. After the flood, Kane was dead as a doornail. No descendents. However, Mohammad did hear the Judeo-Christian history, and since it was so much more logical than his nation's beliefs at the time, he figured he would make a spin-off religion loosely based off it. So in a way I would agree with you. Interesting points you've raised, though.

And that's where you're wrong. How did matter come into being? Two answers you've got: It made itself oO Nothing exploded and made everything, so once nothing made it. How did organs evolve? A partially developed stomach or digestive system won't do squat, so by the "use it or lose it" rule of evolution, we should all still be bacteria. And another thing, how did life come about? "Well, the primordial soup, 2.3 billion years ago." Oh sure, the Earth just opened a can of "Campbell's Primordial Soup."

Those are some serious problems my friend...
Just because you totally lack understanding of any scientific theories doesn't mean they're stupid. It means you're a misinformed teenager who wouldn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

LOL! The Christians are talking about "willful ignorance" :D That made my day :D

And the Atheists beliefs of slime for ancestry is any better? Even if this were true, would it not be better to willfully believe something that would maintain order, equality and quality of life? You may know of the many ways in which Christianity has been twisted, and that few other ways of thought have had the same done to them. What is wrong doesn't need to be changed to deceive people, it's already wrong. But what is true must be changed in order to subdue people, to make them easier to control. The fact that the nations of nearly every person here are Socialist/Communist/ a Dictatorship means you all know that's true; control what the people believe, control the people. This is a very serious matter, not one to be taken lightly.

The fact that computers don't have a mind of their own didn't catch your attention when you were writing this false analogy? You are comparing the creation of something technical with the creation of something biological. There is no other way for computers to come about besides an intelligent being creating them, but there is more than one way for something biological to come about. Therefore, it is a false analogy and invalid. In your agruement.

The theory that Elvis is still alive and is flying around with little grey men is based on no less facts than the theory of creationism. No less. It is all faith, no factual reasoning helping the decision.

Elvis was a very important man in the world of music BTW. There may be no reason to assume that he is flying around in space, but there is no more reason to believe that some deity created everything. And I think his family and fans may find it relevant concerning whether or not he is still alive. It is pretty heartless to say it doesn't matter whether or not someone lives for no reason. And it may affect us all if he is flying around in space, because he might be able to tell us about it or maybe he made contact with other life forms, who knows? You are very elitist to say that your beliefs matter more than other people's. Maybe some people worship Elvis as a religious figure, it's not unheard of. You have no a stitch more proof that your deity exists than anyone has that Elvis is still alive and cruising the universe.

You may remember that Kane lived before the flood. After the flood, Kane was dead as a doornail. No descendents. However, Mohammad did hear the Judeo-Christian history, and since it was so much more logical than his nation's beliefs at the time, he figured he would make a spin-off religion loosely based off it. So in a way I would agree with you. Interesting points you've raised, though.

I was just giving the information I was given by a Christian before when he was speaking of the "evils of Islam." He said that was what the official Christian view on Islam and Mohammad was, so I figured it was probably what you guys believed, I didn't think of Noah obviously (Unless Noah or his wife was a decendant, making us all cursed).

Am I the only one tired of this creatinolist fool? I thing "The Thing" created the univerce then let eveloution do the rest. Now will every one just shut up and let this thred die like it should of done after the 1st 3 post?!

Want to look it up yourself? Here's the official website: http://www.churchofsatan.com

If you actually posses the presence of mind to read through the site, you might find that Satanists worship not a being called Satan but the carnal pleasures and activities that Satan represents. But, knowing you, you won't even look.

Nice try, I went. Load of crap it 'tis. http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Apple.html
"It is also amusing to us that this company uses as a corporate logo an apple with a bite taken from it, which certainly appears to be a reference to that other famous apple. We have not forgotten that forbidden fruit, which would impart knowledge of Good and Evil, offered to Eve in that mythical garden by none other than the serpent, an avatar of Satan himself. Is it not then strange that they seem to fear the admiration of the Church of Satan? As Anton LaVey himself would have said, 'They want to dance, but their feet won’t let them.'"
I always figured that thethe apple in their logo was a reference to that, and this is pretty much confirmation. Not that I trust Microsoft that much more, but that's a whole other topic.

"One of the pursuits of Satanists is to point out hypocrisy wherever it has entrenched itself..."
Well, the whole thing is baloney too, made up like the fairy tales and nursery rhymes. Worse yet, they use Hebrew for evil rather than good, a defilement and an abomination. I won't argue over this any more as you already know all about it and that it's a load of crap, but choose to not state such. No one can change that but you.

You say God was always there, but discount the possibly of matter always being there. That is called hypocracy. Learn it, love it; it is the basis of Christianity.

The difference between religious dogma and scientific theory is that theory can be changed based on new evidence, while dogma must be replaced or left alone. But that matters little for religion, because it is not based on facts, new information means nothing to religion.

What are these creatures that challenge evolution?

And being as the universe includes an obscene amount of planets, its not as if it isn't possible that one (if not more) planets to, by sheer chance, to happen to be in the right location and have the right materials to sustain life. Once you have the planet it all goes to the theory I already discussed. Intelligence is not required to win the lottery, although things do have to be just-so for it to happen.

Like I said, the world, time and matter had a beginning. God doesn't, otherwise he wouldn't be God. Simple logic that I've stated 4 times easily in the past 15 minutes.
The Bombadier Beetle (how did its chemical deffense develop?), the giraffe (how did the blood chambers in its throat gradually develop?), glow worms and fireflies (they use 2 chemicals which they produce themselves to make cold light, chemicals which we still can't create in a lab ourselves). Now, right there, something a one and a half inch bug can do that we still can't copy with all our fancy technology. Quite ironic, really.

You do realize how many people play the lottery continually for their whole life, and never win, don't you? If you don't, then you should put down your Scientific American magazine for a while...

However, Mohammad did hear the Judeo-Christian history, and since it was so much more logical than his nation's beliefs at the time, he figured he would make a spin-off religion loosely based off it. So in a way I would agree with you. Interesting points you've raised, though.

Come on... are you really going to pretend to know of the intentions (genuine or not) of Muhammad? Are you so arrogant to say that you know what he knew? Remorthia, before you begin your discourse into legitimate religions, perhaps you should first educate yourself to the religious and chronological history of Islam. A "spin-off" religion? Islam is fundamentally rooted in the same moral ideology Christianity is, hence, to say that Islam is an update of Christianity is neither a new nor original idea. Do you know of the Angel Gabriel? Do you know that sacred Islamic texts acknowledges and reveres almost all of the same prophets that the sacred texts of Christianity do? Home Slice, slow your roll, most of your arguement is interesting (although I would like to know more about why you think He exists), but here you're trying to hit a randy johnson fastball with a wiffleball bat...

And the Atheists beliefs of slime for ancestry is any better? Even if this were true, would it not be better to willfully believe something that would maintain order, equality and quality of life? You may know of the many ways in which Christianity has been twisted, and that few other ways of thought have had the same done to them. What is wrong doesn't need to be changed to deceive people, it's already wrong. But what is true must be changed in order to subdue people, to make them easier to control. The fact that the nations of nearly every person here are Socialist/Communist/ a Dictatorship means you all know that's true; control what the people believe, control the people. This is a very serious matter, not one to be taken lightly.

As I stated earlier, atheists tend to believe in what is the most reasonable, and currently that is the theory that we all evolved from other organisms.
And I hardly see how Christianity has promoted equality or better quality of life.

Especially not equality. Want to see the record? How about the Pope's decision (and being as he is infalliable in dogmatic decisions, this must reflect christianity) to try to "cleanse" the world of the "heathens"? Pagans would convert or die, muslims would convert or die, etc. What about the Christians inactivity during the Halocaust? Not a word of disapproval came from the Christians when millions of Jews were murdered. Why is that? Because the Christians have murdered Jews since they decided to keep their religion despite the "absolute truth" that the Christians knew. Where were the Christians during the slave trade? They were trading slaves. "God loves all his children.....but he loves some more than others" seemed to be the consensus among many christians, with the exceptions of the puritians. It doesn't stop there though, Christians killed other Christians because they weren't the "right" kind of Christian. Catholics killed Orthodox Christians, Protastants killed Catholics, most of them tried to kill Mormons, etc. "Thou shall not kill" is a joke. The Pope (who [again] is infalliable) ordered crusades; and anyone who knows about the crusades knows that they were just killing and looting ("Thou shall not steal" :rolleyes: ) raids on the muslim world. Wow, I see how they love equality and not the least bit hypocritical. :rolleyes:

Better quality of life, eh? The Christians have a long history of halting scientific progress when it could have saved lives. In the age of piety science almost stagnated (except military tech, see "promoting equality") and they continued using methods like leeches and prayer for hundreds of years afterwards as a result. Fast foward to now. What are they doing when we have a way to possibly cure the worst diseases of our time? They say it is against their religious views and therefore should not be done. I'm speaking of course of stem cell research, which has massive potential, but the religious groups have the government in their pockets, so it will not be allowed.

Christianity is responsible for more authoritarian regimes than any other single idea ever. Communism and socialism aren't even authoritarian ideals to begin with (but Lenin perverted communism to his own means to gain power leading to the practice of "authoratian communism" [a contradiction of terms]. A discussion for another time and place). Even most dictatorships do not attempt to control the thoughts of the masses like Christianity has strived to do since its creation.

My point exactly. Therefore, if the physical world can't be more complex than the spiritual world, why do religious people view the spiritual world as black-and-white? You know, God is Good, Satan is Bad, no exceptions.

You're making the assumption that every theology is identical. This is incorrect, as we're dissagreeing right here, along with around 60 other people. If our beliefs are known to be so diverse, why would you assume that I believe the spiritual world is binary? Besides, I've already stated that the spiritual realm must be more or equally complex, thus I need not expound more.

If this god of yours is going to send me to hell simply because I don't believe in him, then he must be really insecure about himself. Are you sure the bible doesn't say anything about god having a mental disorder ? Because it sounds to me like he's a narcissistic psychopath.

Besides, what makes Christians so special?

Nothing. There is nothing inherently special about us, it is only what we choose to do that deturmines this. If you cannot do something so simple, even to save your own skin, then who is the one with a mental dissorder? (besides, he's not gonna toss you in unless you choose in this life for that to happen)

But...I like existing :(
Professor Farnsworth: "If, for example, you were to kill your grandfather, you would cease to exist!"
Fry: "But existing is basically all I do!"

You didn't answer the question: Why are you right about God? How do you know that your Muslim friend believes "a lie?" Were you there when God said these things? Did he ever speak them directly to you? Have you seen him? Answer the question!

I've never seen you, how do I know you're real and not some high-tech anti-logic computer program that's been dispatched to subdue free thought? I wasn't there when you typed this inquiry, so why should I believe that it's really you, if you are even real? Exact same thing.
"It is a wicked and purverse generation that asks for a sign." "You believe because you see, but blessed are they who believe and do not see."
If God hopped down here, pulled out a megaphone and yelled "Guess what peepz? I exist!" Well, that wouldn't require much of us, would it? We'd go "Woah! Dude, he's like right there dude! Better do what he says, man..." But then, suddenly, he starts flying off and calls out "Gotta go skateboarding on the moon peepz! See 'ya all later!" and poof, he's gone. You hop on a plane, and go visit your folks in Kansis city. Now, it doesn't mean diddly if they don't believe you, because after all, it's crazy, right? Well, that also depends on how often you've told them crap like that before, but that's beside the point. It wouldn't prove anything for us to believe him if he came here and did that, "Without faith, it is impossible to please God."

There have been plenty of people who have brought up your question, Were you there when God said these things? Did he ever speak them directly to you? Have you seen him?
My answer? Nope. I know you're out there, and I know he's up there too.

Like I said, the world, time and matter had a beginning. God doesn't, otherwise he wouldn't be God. Simple logic that I've stated 4 times easily in the past 15 minutes.

Well then why is the scientific theory that matter cannot be created nor destroyed and it was always there valid? It's not fair for you to just say your ideal is above logic just because it is your ideal and you said so.

The Bombadier Beetle (how did its chemical deffense develop?), the giraffe (how did the blood chambers in its throat gradually develop?), glow worms and fireflies (they use 2 chemicals which they produce themselves to make cold light, chemicals which we still can't create in a lab ourselves). Now, right there, something a one and a half inch bug can do that we still can't copy with all our fancy technology. Quite ironic, really.

All of these are simple evolution, you obviously are very ignorant of how evolution works. I'll explain them to you though, because I seem to be in the business of educating these days.
1) It's chemical defense developed due to natural selection. Because of random chance mutations and differences in the beetles some had a little more chemical defense than others. Obviously chemicals began more easily killing the ones with less defense against the chemicals, while the ones with the resistance were able to live on and reproduce. Now because only ones with the resistance reproduce, they will pass on the genes for resistance. Over time, the resistance against chemicals will move the bell curve by directional selection. Then (because of the bell curve's movement) even more resistant beetles come along, and are even better adapted to defend against the chemicals. Eventually, if the same chemicals are used, 99% of the beetles will have a full resistance. That, is basic adapt-to-environment-natural-selection evolution.
2) Same idea as the beetle. Especially good that you mentioned "slowly developed." Evolution is a slow process, but it is always going on. Something about the giraffes with more blood chambers in their necks made them better suited for their environment and therefore, they reproduced more than those without. Soon, the species as a whole all had the trait.
3) Again, something about those chemically created lights made the bugs more fit for their environment and slowly the whole species got that trait.
It is actually not uncommon for a 1 and 1/2 inch bug to be able to do things that we can't in a lab. That bug has cells that transcript DNA, and we can't do that with our fancy equipment. In fact, every living thing known can do things with DNA that we can't yet. Scientists are working on it though, don't you worry. That shows us we have more to discover yet.

You do realize how many people play the lottery continually for their whole life, and never win, don't you? If you don't, then you should put down your Scientific American magazine for a while...

I realize that. Do only intelligent people win the lottery? Because you must have things just-so for it to work. And such an occurance cannot possibly be because of chance.

Okay, let us look at some basic logic.

The bible is the law of God.
The bible gives three peces of information: God is Omnipotent, Omniscent, and Benevolent (lets ignore the mass slaughters at his hands, yes I mean his, not the Jews)

Therefore, God is All powerful, All Knowing, and opposed to evil. Now we have that bit of knowledge to our collective pot.

Now, Evil exists.

Therefore, we must assume that one of those is not there. If he is not omnipotent, he is unable to actually combat evil (It is more powerful), if he is not omniscient, he is ignorant of it's existance. If he is not benevolent, he is not opposed to evil.


Now, based on a very simple logic thing, we have deduced that God is either non-existant, or a liar. Of course that is so simple, it should not be grounds, but it is there.

The foundation of Islam is that it's core beliefs will change depending on the situation. Mohammad was all about peace until he had enough people to invade Mecca.

Jehovah was about peace until somebody different showed up.

Quite true. All throughout history those in power have often used existing beliefs and twisted them towards their own goals, the same has been done with Christianity. I have not read the Koran, I freely admit that. Have you read the Holy Scriptures? I HAVE, however, studied the early history of Islam, and it is true that Mohammad changed his core beliefs several times to fit his own goals. Doesn't that put him into the same category as those bad leaders and politicians? I mean no offense my friend, but please think about it.
Twisted? No, religion is an extension of government. It's a way to keep the masses blind.
God has always given people plenty of time to end their ways. When the Israelites came into Cana'an, there had been more than 300 hundred years of child slaughter, adultery and many more abominations. This was a stench on the Earth, and if you truly think that ending evil through death is evil, do you really think allowing it to continue and get worth good? Besides, there is a final resurrection in the end times, where ALL humanity will rise to be divided, not between good guys and bad guys, but between those who accept the truth when it's not necessarily easy.

I don't exactly feel like looking up the various passages, but if I recall, Jehovah is supposed to be patient, and forgiving. How's this either?

I'm not a satanist. You're not a satanist. Neither of us are slaughtering people. Does the the absense of evil make us good? Nope. "For man's righteousness is as filthy rags." None of us can be good of our own power, it's just impossible. However, "All things are possible through Christ who strengthens me."
Actually according to Christianity, everyone who dosen't accept their silly-robed-man with heatstroke as some savior, is a satanist.

And that's where you're wrong. How did matter come into being? Two answers you've got: It made itself oO Nothing exploded and made everything, so once nothing made it. How did organs evolve? A partially developed stomach or digestive system won't do squat, so by the "use it or lose it" rule of evolution, we should all still be bacteria. And another thing, how did life come about? "Well, the primordial soup, 2.3 billion years ago." Oh sure, the Earth just opened a can of "Campbell's Primordial Soup."

About the universe- Yes, this is a confusing subject, and the ONLY piece of evidence of your multi-faced deity. Of course, then we enter the argument "How was Jehovah made?"

Evolution- Boy, you have a lot to learn. A partially developed GI tract is an advantage over a lacking. Remeber also that most things were used for other things before being adapted to something else. Origins of life? Evolution dosen't deal with life, merely species, and mutations in populations.
But of course you may notice that life is made up of elements which were mixed together, eventually forming a very baisic organism. (I'm not all up on the soup, so someone who is may want to correct that)

It's not ME that has the ultimate truth, it's the Holy Scriptures.
Because we should all belief what desert natives with heeatstroke could write? Seriously, give me a couple months or so, and I could write my own "Law of God"


There you have it, one big counterdiction right there: They're a church of something which they deny, and do not in any way worship who they name themselves after, not to mention that being a church of something which is negatively viewed by the church is lunacy.

Hey, look, at the word "A (Not) Theo (God)" Therefore, Atheists do not believe in God. There is the possibility of belief in other things, that are not God.

No, God is almighty and thus no matter what any of us thinks, he's right. The point is not that anyone is wrong, it's that they have to option to be right.

Therefore "Might makes right?"
"It is also amusing to us that this company uses as a corporate logo an apple with a bite taken from it, which certainly appears to be a reference to that other famous apple. We have not forgotten that forbidden fruit, which would impart knowledge of Good and Evil, offered to Eve in that mythical garden by none other than the serpent, an avatar of Satan himself. Is it not then strange that they seem to fear the admiration of the Church of Satan? As Anton LaVey himself would have said, 'They want to dance, but their feet won’t let them.'"
I always figured that thethe apple in their logo was a reference to that, and this is pretty much confirmation. Not that I trust Microsoft that much more, but that's a whole other topic.

You realize the forbidden fruit is a pomegranite, right?


NOTE: Sorry for the horrid typing, but I'm not feeling too well today, so ignore the weird caps, and other bad things.

1. Evolution

evolution does work. there are computer programs that take a sinple circit draing program, and by use of a series of algorythems designed to represent random mutation, sexual reproduction, and testing relative fitness, and "evolve" circuts. these programs have shown that given enough generations the evolutionary process can and does generate circuts identicle to the best human designed units, and eventualy even surpasses what the designers of the program were capable of reverse engineering. those circts were evaluated and ere fond to perfom their tasks better than the best human designed equivalents. and even more interestingly they included seemingly unessisary redundancy, and vistigial components (one circut had a transistor that was only connected to itself). i ish i could quite my souce specificly but i read it in a sceintific american article and i don't recall which one.

2. life the universe and everything,

the argument that the universe is so complex that it had to be designed by an intelegent being is basicly ass-backords. intelegently designed systems are elegent in ther simpicity. the simplest and moste efficent way is always the best after all. complexity generaly comes from itteration of state based systems (chaos theory). it is far more likely that the universe is the random result of a set of rules being itterativly applied over time than that it was designed and created in largly it's curent state by a being with a psychology anything like humans.

now about probability. in an infanate universe it is logical to assume that anything that could hapen, no matter how unlikely, has hapened. now add to that the multi-verse theory, and well, it's happened in an infanate number of different ways. i belive it was mentioned earlier that matter that is propelled from an explosion wouldn't result in the creation of a car. well i'd postulate that it not only can, but it has. the problem is it hasn't hapened within the infantesimal observational range of humanity.

3, biblical hypocracy

it is my estimation that there are only 3 religions in existance:

those that belive in multiple self contained divinitys with the ability and will to affect things in the mortal relm, who may or may not have conflicting wills (norse mythology, greko-roman, mythology, etc)

those that believ there is one divinity that has it's power distributed amoungst the whole of existance, and this divinity is able to influence the mortal relm but generaly does so only by covert means (judeo-christian mythology, islam, hinduisam/budisam, taoisam (i think), etc.)

those who refuse to believ anything beyond their personal observations, and capacity for understanding does, or is capable of existing. (the sceintific method taken to an extreme beyond it's original intent)


anything beyond that is just getting hung up on symbols, and i think avoiding that is why both the judeo-christian and islamic mythologies denounce the practice of warshiping idols (a rule that is sumarily ignored in more than a few denominations). the problem is the vast majority of humanity is either incapable of or unwilling to understand the actual messages of the various profets over the centuries. and like most good ideas once the masses got ahold of it the message was quickely miss in terpreted, and twisted to fit the existing views of cociety, and goals of those running society.

Why was this Remorthia guy given so much attention :confused: . He's an obvious headcase who spouted crap with no substance to it. He should never have had his ego and clear psychosis pandered to :headbang: .

Brilliant statement. Your coherency is lacking, since your statements means nothing it neither proves nor argues towards anything, I would suggest thinking before you type.

It's called humor. Jesus bleeding from the rectum is particularly funny to me, and I felt this thread could use some light-hearted good fun. I suggest you get laid more often.

Hardly. I said that it was akin to two computers discussing wether or not humans exist, I did not say that they would have no reason to believe one way or the other. Even so, we all know damn-well that computers were made by us, so why not use our supposed intellect to assume somebody made us?

But computers don't KNOW that they were made by us. And whatever "reasons" they could conclude - in your example - it wouldn't make a difference as to whether humans existed or not.

That's why your analogy kills your argument. No matter what we discuss here, God will either exist, or not. And people, too, will either believe in a God, or not. So what does all this ego masturbation give us? Nothing.

And really, Evlis flying around with little grey men is too stupid for words. First, what's so big on Elvis? Famous musician, that's it.

What's so big about Jesus? Famous criminal, that's it. The idea that some dead Jewish guy is God is too stupid for words.

There is absolutely no reason to assume he's flying around out there, not any reason to wonder why. It's irrelevant. HOWEVER, wether or not there is a supreme omnipotent being does affect us, as it deals with many trains of thought which we pursue.

Nope. In fact, I would say that Elvis in a Spaceship has far more relevance than your "supreme being" myth. After all, we'll be flying in spaceships too, and we'll eventually meet up with Elvis. It pays to think about it beforehand.

On the other hand, supreme omnipotent beings only come into contact with prophets, martyrs, apostles and such. The kinds of people who you and I are not. Therefore it's irrelevant and doesn't affect us. I think you're just showing the typical elitist attitude held by many believers - you discredit any other belief as "too stupid for words," yet you think your belief is all-important. It's not even about the relative powers of Jesus vs Elvis - you think your BELIEF is more important. Well, fuck that! People who are like that flew planes into skyscrapers on 9/11.

Nothing. There is nothing inherently special about us, it is only what we choose to do that deturmines this. If you cannot do something so simple, even to save your own skin, then who is the one with a mental dissorder? (besides, he's not gonna toss you in unless you choose in this life for that to happen)
The simple thing to do is to blindly follow what you're told by others, and not look within yourself.

We all believe in an ultimate power, wether it be a god, some fictional or real human, or ourselves. There is no true atheism, just a disbelief of an immaterial being.

There is no "ultimate power". Everyone and everything is equall.

Two computers can argue all they want about wether or not humans exist, or wether we're just a figment of the videogames that they so frequently run... Well, wether or not they think we don't exist, we do. And even if we have a poll on wether or not God exists, I'm not too sure that'll change his mind on being in control.

A lot of people wonder why bad things happen... Well, it's because we're idiots. No matter how good, smart or wise we are, we're still pretty darn, and atleast two-thirds of the problems we face we caused ourselves, but are too proud to accept that. Now hold on, before you say that this person you knew was a 'good person', let us not forget that God is a good guy. He is peace, order and coherency. The devil (he's the bad guy, you really should remember that) is the ruler of entropy, chaos and death. "The devil comes only to steal, kill and destroy." Now, lets say that the person you know who died truly was a good person... Well, you think God killed them? First off, why the hell would he do that. We have no reason to automatically assume God did that, unless we don't admit that the devil exists... Most of you know that the best tactic in battle is to have the enemy convinced you don't exist. If they don't think you're armies are arround, they won't prepare to fight you. Now, it doesn't take a prophet to figure out that perhaps the devil is doing the same. How many people believe that he's more than a little red dude with a pitch-fork and pointy tale? Or that he's even more than a metaphor for 'badness?

Well, I may be just a teen, but I'm not stupid, and chances are most of you aren't stupid, since you've been able to read this far. If you got pissed really quickly, just ask yourself, 'why'. I can guarrantee you that there's a lot more going around than we can see, and it isn't Evlis in a space ship or parallel dimensions...

*cough*BRAINWASHED*cough*

Computers cannot think creativly like we do. A computer would never ask a question as fundamental as 'Do I exist' let alone ponder the nature of its creator.

There is no "ultimate power". Everyone and everything is equall.
but some things are more equal than others.

Heh-heh, well people on cocaine usually aren't smart enough to start they're sentences with capital letters, or to make coherent statements, so think on that my friend ;)

From my experiance with cocaine, it's unlikely to affect your typing, unless of course you're too excited to be bothered with using capitals.

Cocaine is however, the one true god. :D

There are no humans. I'm a bodiless soul living in the MATRIX. I am imagining everything around me.

There are no humans. I'm a bodiless soul living in the MATRIX. I am imagining everything around me.
Fuck. That kinda messes up my life. If it can even be called that. Sonofabitch that sucks. Why didn't anyone tell me this truth before??! ;)

God exists, we don't.

I bet he wouldn't say that if he was bleeding from the rectum.
Didn't Foxworthy AND Robin Williams have some joke line about that?
"Anal leakage"?

Williams' stage bit was a smidge funnier.

Nice try, I went. Load of crap it 'tis. http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Apple.html
"It is also amusing to us that this company uses as a corporate logo an apple with a bite taken from it, which certainly appears to be a reference to that other famous apple. We have not forgotten that forbidden fruit, which would impart knowledge of Good and Evil, offered to Eve in that mythical garden by none other than the serpent, an avatar of Satan himself. Is it not then strange that they seem to fear the admiration of the Church of Satan? As Anton LaVey himself would have said, 'They want to dance, but their feet won’t let them.'"
I always figured that thethe apple in their logo was a reference to that, and this is pretty much confirmation. Not that I trust Microsoft that much more, but that's a whole other topic.

"One of the pursuits of Satanists is to point out hypocrisy wherever it has entrenched itself..."
Well, the whole thing is baloney too, made up like the fairy tales and nursery rhymes. Worse yet, they use Hebrew for evil rather than good, a defilement and an abomination. I won't argue over this any more as you already know all about it and that it's a load of crap, but choose to not state such. No one can change that but you.

What do you mean, nice try? I sent you the real site for the Church of Satan. Google it. Wiki it. It's a bit silly, but it's not really a load of crap. It's about having fun and living as you want to live, not as some made-up diety supposedly dictated you should live.

I've never seen you, how do I know you're real and not some high-tech anti-logic computer program that's been dispatched to subdue free thought? I wasn't there when you typed this inquiry, so why should I believe that it's really you, if you are even real? Exact same thing.
"It is a wicked and purverse generation that asks for a sign." "You believe because you see, but blessed are they who believe and do not see."
If God hopped down here, pulled out a megaphone and yelled "Guess what peepz? I exist!" Well, that wouldn't require much of us, would it? We'd go "Woah! Dude, he's like right there dude! Better do what he says, man..." But then, suddenly, he starts flying off and calls out "Gotta go skateboarding on the moon peepz! See 'ya all later!" and poof, he's gone. You hop on a plane, and go visit your folks in Kansis city. Now, it doesn't mean diddly if they don't believe you, because after all, it's crazy, right? Well, that also depends on how often you've told them crap like that before, but that's beside the point. It wouldn't prove anything for us to believe him if he came here and did that, "Without faith, it is impossible to please God."

There have been plenty of people who have brought up your question,
My answer? Nope. I know you're out there, and I know he's up there too.

You don't know that I exist. But the fact that I'm having a complex conversation with you should be a heckova sign. I don't suppose you have online talks with God?
I don't think it's possible to even argue with you on your second point. Maybe it makes sense to you. Having people constantly tell you it's logical is probably slightly brainwashing. But really, the idea of God is ridiculous. "Faith" is just an excuse. These controlling and manipulitive leaders tell you that you need to believe in something to be a good person. And you're scared enough by their claims that you won't even try to think logically. God doesn't want people to believe in him. He doesn't exist, and nonexistent things don't have wants. It's too bad about the fear and hysteria. Life is so much more peaceful without it.

I'm no bible expert, but from what I've read and heard about it, this god of yours is one real prick.
...and that would be why the "christians" think that they are just that - following what they think is messiah (even though he doesn't make all the necessary prereq's).
"But Jesus broke the old covenant!" ... and that clears the way for christians not to be like him, a practicing "jew". Further, it allows them to worship someone who isn't god, which "god" clearly stated not to do in the ten commandments (if Moses and/or Hannurabi is to be believed for authority) .... even letting them break another commandment of "graven images".
That way they never get to deal with the god that Jesus was talking about - except, obviously, for the denominations who fear him. How convenient.

God exists, we don't.

The fact that humans created God kind rules that out.
We created God like we created Sticks. There were no sticks before humans just branches. The representation of things is often mistaken for what it represents, humans delude themselves into thinking they are the same. When I say chair, I am not referring to something real, but to a human, intelectual convention of an object. When someone says God he isn't referring to a bearded supernatural being, he is referring to an unknown part of himself and human thinking, a part he is too lazy or biased to question and ponder. Then again, not many people know philosophy is a religion...

Two computers can argue all they want about wether or not humans exist, or wether we're just a figment of the videogames that they so frequently run... Well, wether or not they think we don't exist, we do. And even if we have a poll on wether or not God exists, I'm not too sure that'll change his mind on being in control.

A lot of people wonder why bad things happen... Well, it's because we're idiots. No matter how good, smart or wise we are, we're still pretty darn, and atleast two-thirds of the problems we face we caused ourselves, but are too proud to accept that. Now hold on, before you say that this person you knew was a 'good person', let us not forget that God is a good guy. He is peace, order and coherency. The devil (he's the bad guy, you really should remember that) is the ruler of entropy, chaos and death. "The devil comes only to steal, kill and destroy." Now, lets say that the person you know who died truly was a good person... Well, you think God killed them? First off, why the hell would he do that. We have no reason to automatically assume God did that, unless we don't admit that the devil exists... Most of you know that the best tactic in battle is to have the enemy convinced you don't exist. If they don't think you're armies are arround, they won't prepare to fight you. Now, it doesn't take a prophet to figure out that perhaps the devil is doing the same. How many people believe that he's more than a little red dude with a pitch-fork and pointy tale? Or that he's even more than a metaphor for 'badness?

Well, I may be just a teen, but I'm not stupid, and chances are most of you aren't stupid, since you've been able to read this far. If you got pissed really quickly, just ask yourself, 'why'. I can guarrantee you that there's a lot more going around than we can see, and it isn't Evlis in a space ship or parallel dimensions...
The only possible logical response to all threads like this is to say that whether or not God exists is a matter of faith. Trying to apply logic to a priori assumptions only gets you to conclusions based on a priori assumptions.

1) Ah, 1984. I read that book. Don't forget that he was a Socialist, and this was his idea of an ideal Socialist society (though everyone interpretted it as a warning, and to avoid that path).

Apparently you utterly missed the point of 1984, it's a critique of authoritarian governments and this should be obvious to anyone who reads it. Try reading 'Animal Farm' instead if 1984 was too subtle for you.