NationStates Jolt Archive

I've seen many comparisons between Bush and Hitler and the US and Nazi Germany, most of which are completely baseless. However, there seems to be a pervasive notion that the US is somehow a fascist state. On a scale from 1-10, how fascist do you think the US is (poll coming)?

I think it is fascist. A lot of people forget that fascism =/= national socialism, and that formal limits on freedom of speech and political affiliation are not a necessary component of fascism. It is quite possible to have fascism in a democracy, by consent.

*sighs*

As much as I detest the shrub; I have to give this question a :rolleyes:

I've seen many comparisons between Bush and Hitler and the US and Nazi Germany, most of which are completely baseless. However, there seems to be a pervasive notion that the US is somehow a fascist state. On a scale from 1-10, how fascist do you think the US is (poll coming)?

Bush aint Fascist, but Clinton is. I hate that annoying asshole!

Please look up the definition of fascist and rephrase the question. The Italians were the Fascists. Hitler was just a right wing nutjob.

I think it is fascist. A lot of people forget that fascism =/= national socialism, and that formal limits on freedom of speech and political affiliation are not a necessary component of fascism. It is quite possible to have fascism in a democracy, by consent.

Hmm, good analysis mr. we don't need to debate laws anymore.

Please look up the definition of fascist and rephrase the question. The Italians were the Fascists. Hitler was just a right wing nutjob.

actually, economically Hitler was almost centrist -- some socialism, some free-enterprise.

Hmm, good analysis mr. we don't need to debate laws anymore.
To which laws do you refer?

Please look up the definition of fascist and rephrase the question. The Italians were the Fascists. Hitler was just a right wing nutjob.

Most people would agree that Germany in the 30s and 40s was fascist. I mean, it fits almost every criteria to a "T." It may have been a more extreme form and not representative of the whole, but it was definitely fascism.

actually, economically Hitler was almost centrist -- some socialism, some free-enterprise.

Indeed. Hitler was very economically fascist -- he advocated the state control of property, but allowed private entrepreneurship with some regulations.

actually, economically Hitler was almost centrist -- some socialism, some free-enterprise.
One noteworthy fact is that Nazi German AFV and aircraft designs were put out to competitive tender, with production contracts being awarded to the winning design. The Panther and Tiger tanks in particular were initially built with two competing turret designs.

To which laws do you refer?

I believe that Nadkor had a link to the proposed reforms in question. Frankly if you are more concerned with the US than the creeping facism in the UK, it's not my problem.

Suffice to say, individual liberty is far more protected in the US, despite what the guardian tells you. And before you start flapping, I'm one HM;s subjects too,

No. While a technical definition could lead to the United States being defined as facist, it does not apply where the layman is considered. I emphasize technical for a reason: a technical definition could also define the U.S. as a theocracy, when it clearly isn't. At least, not yet, though it might being going there. As an athiest, I don't like that.

Unless they start to actually curtail freedoms in a significant manner and start removing elections, the U.S. is still a democratic society.

I think it is fascist. A lot of people forget that fascism =/= national socialism, and that formal limits on freedom of speech and political affiliation are not a necessary component of fascism. It is quite possible to have fascism in a democracy, by consent.

You can't say fascism =/= national socialism!

Facsism - lat. Fascen - Axe wrapped with weath. It means power. So Italians (who were Fascis) only wanted to expand their territory, while in same time they didn't do an Ethnic cleansing

National Socialism - Mixture of Communism and Insane Nationalism - Wich means that goverment controls busines, and promote middle and worker class, on the other hand rhey are going by princip of blood and land - kill all that are not like us!

The US is fascist. It is an ultra-right fascist democracy. Nationalism, huge poverty gap, Immense national wealth, efficient, capital punishment, imperialistic and ruthless foreign policies, incontinental military spending, propaganda, religious fundamentalism, government encroachments on civil liberties, ect...
To soften the blow, why don't you call yourselves 'fascismo' in the original Italian way. Maybe it'll help...

Do most of you people even think?
America is not even close to a fascist state :headbang:

I think it is fascist.

How do you figure? Economically, it is quite a ways to the right of fascism. Socially, it is a long way to the left. According to Webster: "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition." Which of these criteria do you feel the US meets, let alone all of them?

Do most of you people even think?
America is not even close to a fascist state :headbang:

No. They don't. It would require a constitutional amendmet to be fascist. However crypto-fascits are the first to label other countries that way.

No. They don't. It would require a constitutional amendmet to be fascist. However crypto-fascits are the first to label other countries that way.
Thank you a reasoning individual

I believe that Nadkor had a link to the proposed reforms in question. Frankly if you are more concerned with the US than the creeping facism in the UK, it's not my problem.

Suffice to say, individual liberty is far more protected in the US, despite what the guardian tells you. And before you start flapping, I'm one HM;s subjects too,
Individual liberty from the government is pretty meaningless stuff if the majority decide of their own volition to act as though their choices are limited. In most places, governments have to work to insulate their country from the outside world to achieve the results American society has achieved in choosing an insular exceptionalist mindset of its own free will.

American fascism is mundane, self-inflicted small-town fascism, rather than the grand social projects scripted in Europe. The willing embrace of it however, makes it no less unattractive.

Individual liberty from the government is pretty meaningless stuff if the majority decide of their own volition to act as though their choices are limited. In most places, governments have to work to insulate their country from the outside world to achieve the results American society has achieved in choosing an insular exceptionalist mindset of its own free will.

American fascism is mundane, self-inflicted small-town fascism, rather than the grand social projects scripted in Europe. The willing embrace of it however, makes it no less unattractive.
If someone chooses to limit himself or herself, to a certain set of options, how is that wrong. If they have personal reasons for acting as they do and no one is forcing them to act that way, what are you complaining about?
And please be more specific, what limitations are americans putting on themselves that you object to.

You can't say fascism =/= national socialism!
Yes you can.
Facsism - lat. Fascen - Axe wrapped with weath. It means power. So Italians (who were Fascis) only wanted to expand their territory, while in same time they didn't do an Ethnic cleansing
National Socialism - Mixture of Communism and Insane Nationalism - Wich means that goverment controls busines, and promote middle and worker class, on the other hand rhey are going by princip of blood and land - kill all that are not like us!
So you just demonstrated the extreme differences between fascism and nazism.

Unless they start to actually curtail freedoms in a significant manner and start removing elections, the U.S. is still a democratic society.

habeas corpus went bye bye, they've taken up pervasive domestic surveillence, the secret police infiltrate opposition groups, torture is touted as a positively good thing, fake pro-dear leader rallies are staged, we've got "free speech zones", immigrants have been rounded up, we've got an international gulag of secret torture and death camps, a significant part of the media is nothing more than an official government propaganda machine, etc. oh, and the prez openly declares that the law doesn't apply to him and that he can do whatever he wants due to the current "crisis" and his role as the head of the military.


most fascist countries had elections of some kind, especially at the beginning.

Individual liberty from the government is pretty meaningless stuff if the majority decide of their own volition to act as though their choices are limited. In most places, governments have to work to insulate their country from the outside world to achieve the results American society has achieved in choosing an insular exceptionalist mindset of its own free will.

American fascism is mundane, self-inflicted small-town fascism, rather than the grand social projects scripted in Europe. The willing embrace of it however, makes it no less unattractive.

You write all pretty. And that's nice.

But we have habeus corpus, and you don't.

We got free speech too.

Oh yah your little government thing. Our courts can stop that also.....

Yes you can.

So you just demonstrated the extreme differences between fascism and nazism.
No he just demonstrated that the philosophical positions between national socialism and nazism, while also pointing out that their SOP is rather similar.

Yes you can.

So you just demonstrated the extreme differences between fascism and nazism.

Originally Posted by Tactical Grace
... A lot of people forget that fascism =/= national socialism...

I was just quoting that part.

According to Webster

dictionaries are notoriously awful at summing up political ideologies. especially semi-contradictory anti-ideologies like fascism. you are better off looking to larger treatments of the subject.

habeas corpus went bye bye, they've taken up pervasive domestic surveillence, the secret police infiltrate opposition groups, torture is touted as a positively good thing, fake pro-dear leader rallies are staged, we've got "free speech zones", immigrants have been rounded up, we've got an international gulag of secret torture and death camps, a significant part of the media is nothing more than an official government propaganda machine, etc. oh, and the prez openly declares that the law doesn't apply to him and that he can do whatever he wants due to the current "crisis" and his role as the head of the military.


most fascist countries had elections of some kind, especially at the beginning.
I'm not saying that they are not being curtailed. But the average American has yet to be personally affected by these. I myself have never had a single problem with my free speech, for instance. Frankly, while one might see the signs of a coming fascist dictatorship, I need remind you that the odds of the majority of the population actually wanting this is not all that likely. Further, in each case of a fascist dictator, the previous government was flawed and unstable. Our democracy has been, for the most part, stable for over 200 years. It does not appear to be unstable at the moment and is not likely to be unstable unless there is an incredible crisis. As such, we will rectify any problems Bush has made. I highly expect him to be arrested for crimes at some point, especially in regards to the Scooter Libby case. It might not occur till the end of his term in office, but it will most probably occur. He may be forced to step down and resign if impeachment charges are pushed, if the Dems were to get a majority in Congress. I personally do not want to see that happen as the rats leaving the sinking ship might rally up and defeat the hapless mice attempting to lay seige to the rat king, to overuse a metaphor.

habeas corpus went bye bye, they've taken up pervasive domestic surveillence, the secret police infiltrate opposition groups, torture is touted as a positively good thing, fake pro-dear leader rallies are staged, we've got "free speech zones", immigrants have been rounded up, we've got an international gulag of secret torture and death camps, a significant part of the media is nothing more than an official government propaganda machine, etc. oh, and the prez openly declares that the law doesn't apply to him and that he can do whatever he wants due to the current "crisis" and his role as the head of the military.


most fascist countries had elections of some kind, especially at the beginning.
hehehe friend don't you realize that in a true fascism, one of the autocratic leaders first moves would be to shut down free access to the internet, to dismiss the Congress, purify the military (translates to protesting generals:mp5:) and in general get rid of any public opponents.
And to do that you would need a demagogue who has control over 75%+ of the population.
Bush on the other hand doesn't have that kind of support, he only had nominal support from 50.7% of the population, and if he tried to become an autocrat that number would drop like a rock

Amerikkka fascist?

NO SHIT!

Where the hell have you been for the past 50 years?! Amerikkka is the single most authoritarian and right wing nation on the face of the earth!

And they have concentration camps, to boot.

For the simple reason that I believe the US government lies to its people for personal gain, I call it fascist.

dictionaries are notoriously awful at summing up political ideologies. especially semi-contradictory anti-ideologies like fascism. you are better off looking to larger treatments of the subject.
Very true. Beginning with a dictionary definition is the surest way of having your ass handed to you in a debate, even if you're an Oxbridge political science student up against an engineer. :D

I am amazed it is still considered an accepted method in circles which should know better.

Very true. Beginning with a dictionary definition is the surest way of having your ass handed to you in a debate, even if you're an Oxbridge political science student up against an engineer. :D

I am amazed it is still considered an accepted method in circles which should know better.

Shhh....AmeriKKKans know no better than to be stupid.

How do you figure? Economically, it is quite a ways to the right of fascism. Socially, it is a long way to the left. According to Webster: "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition." Which of these criteria do you feel the US meets, let alone all of them?
Stuff Webster. Understand that facism has been taken way out of context since WWII and loosely used as a term for ones enemies, describing 'badness'. Take a look at some of the writings of the pre-Mussolini fascist theorists. Remember Mussolini did not invent it, he just carefully placed himself at the top, and ended up perverting it.
Fascism is in it's earliest foundations, a knee-jerk to communism. As such it is vehemenently against communism and socialism. In most forms it advocates hard right economics, with a the goal of advancing the nation, irrespective of individuals citizens' welfare. It is not racist in nature, but is heavily nationalistic. The main goal of fascism is the advancement of the nation (be it politically, economically, territorially, or militarily). As a result, a very strong emphasis is placed upon efficiency. In contrast, the welfare of citizens is somewhat auxilliary. If they are poor, they should work harder. Civil liberties are nothing in comparison to national security and interests. Socially, facist nations tend to have extremely arrogant and imperialistic views on issues and the rest of the world.

It's the US. A slightly different form, at least. Neo-facism.

Stuff Webster. Understand that facism has been taken way out of context since WWII and loosely used as a term for ones enemies, describing 'badness'. Take a look at some of the writings of the pre-Mussolini fascist theorists. Remember Mussolini did not invent it, he just carefully placed himself at the top, and ended up perverting it.

So if Fascism isn't perverted by a dictator, if the people choose it and if a nation as a whole chooses to act in a fascist manner, what is your problem with it. Truly fascist nations tend to be good to their allies, take Athens for example

So if Fascism isn't perverted by a dictator, if the people choose it and if a nation as a whole chooses to act in a fascist manner, what is your problem with it. Truly fascist nations tend to be good to their allies, take Athens for example

Or Amerikkka...

Or Amerikkka...
Exactly, and if you oppose america as a whole NOT IF YOU OPPOSE THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP of america, but if you oppose america as a whole:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Exactly, and if you oppose america as a whole NOT IF YOU OPPOSE THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP of america, but if you oppose america as a whole:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

What educated person does not oppose america? How can you support a nation that kills and invades other peaceful, democratic nations for fun?

So if Fascism isn't perverted by a dictator, if the people choose it and if a nation as a whole chooses to act in a fascist manner, what is your problem with it. Truly fascist nations tend to be good to their allies, take Athens for example
The problem lies in that society's subsequent interaction with others. Fascism never makes for a good starting point, as similar to other militaristic ideologies, its instinctive response to disagreement is the imposition of will by coercion.

What educated person does not oppose america? How can you support a nation that kills and invades other peaceful, democratic nations for fun?

how can freedom-lovers the world around HATE america when we've tried to free Iraqis from a brutal dictator?

Or have you missed that minor point of our mission in Iraq?

Name a DEMOCRATIC country that the United States has invaded...

Afghanistan? Hardly -- Taliban.

Iraq? Try again -- Saddam.

We were in Korea to help stop Communism from taking over the whole of Korea.

We were in Vietnam to stop the northern commies from imposing themselves on the democratic south.

etc.

What educated person does not oppose america? How can you support a nation that kills and invades other peaceful, democratic nations for fun?
What peaceful democracy has america invaded?

how can freedom-lovers the world around HATE america when we've tried to free Iraqis from a brutal dictator?

Or have you missed that minor point of our mission in Iraq?

Brutal dictator...ha! That's a good one.

So brutal that he provided free healthcare and education to his people (before your little jaunt to the beach fucked it up)?

The US is far more brutal and inhumane then Mr. Hussein could have ever been.

Somewhat authoritarian, not really fascist. If it were fascist, we'd have cool uniforms, and march around, and stuff.

Brutal dictator...ha! That's a good one.

So brutal that he provided free healthcare and education to his people (before your little jaunt to the beach fucked it up)?

The US is far more brutal and inhumane then Mr. Hussein could have ever been.

No, you moron, so brutal that he killed, kidnapped, and/or tortured people who disagreed with him.

Are you a Sunni insurgent?

No, you moron, so brutal that he killed, kidnapped, and/or tortured people who disagreed with him.

No more than to keep the peace. Unlike your Secret Service.

EDIT: Oh yes, I would love to become an insurgent. I would finally get my crack at those stormtroopers over there...

Exactly, and if you oppose america as a whole NOT IF YOU OPPOSE THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP of america, but if you oppose america as a whole:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Maybe you didn't know, but mp5 is German weapon.

Originally Posted by Caribel IV
What educated person does not oppose america? How can you support a nation that kills and invades other peaceful, democratic nations for fun?


Yeah!

And look at this Spathon guy, when you said something about USA he started shooting!

TO ALL AMERICANS:

MOST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD COULD KICK YOUR AMERICAN ASS! SO DON'T BE TOO ASSURED THAT YOU ARE INVINCIBLE!

The problem lies in that society's subsequent interaction with others. Fascism never makes for a good starting point, as similar to other militaristic ideologies, its instinctive response to disagreement is the imposition of will by coercion.
Possibly, but what but so long as the people support it how can you call it wrong? I mean heaven forbid, we should impose a universal moral code (pun intended)
Now I thought that the main problem that most people had with fascism was that it was dominated by a corrupt dictator who lied to people to get them to support his conquests, and I agree that that is wrong but what problem can you have with the way another country chooses to view the world.

No more than to keep the peace. Unlike your Secret Service.

uh, we don't kill our own people for talking...

human rights abuses under Saddam's regime were systematic -- he was a small-time Stalin. I suppose you love Stalin too.

No, you moron, so brutal that he killed, kidnapped, and/or tortured people who disagreed with him.

Are you a Sunni insurgent?
Judging by the registration date and number of posts, he's probably a puppet of some other user.

Judging by the registration date and number of posts, he's probably a puppet of some other user.

or just jerking our proverbial chain... in which case, he's done a good job. I need to lighten up -- it's Friday (well, it is here anyway).

uh, we don't kill our own people for talking...

human rights abuses under Saddam's regime were systematic -- he was a small-time Stalin. I suppose you love Stalin too.

And King Bush's are not?

Saddam kept the peace. His society was healthy, smart, and generally quite nice.

The same cannot be said for american society, I'm afraid.

Judging by the registration date and number of posts, he's probably a puppet of some other user.

*dances on strings*

Nah, not really. I have been here before in my previous Caribels.

uh, we don't kill our own people for talking...

human rights abuses under Saddam's regime were systematic -- he was a small-time Stalin. I suppose you love Stalin too.

And what da fuck do you know about STALIN?

*dances on strings*

Nah, not really. I have been here before in my previous Caribels.
So you're a troll who has been banned thrice before? You are not improving your image in the least, good sir.

Maybe you didn't know, but mp5 is German weapon.



Yeah!

And look at this Spathon guy, when you said something about USA he started shooting!

TO ALL AMERICANS:

MOST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD COULD KICK YOUR AMERICAN ASS! SO DON'T BE TO ASSURED THAT YOU ARE INVINCIBLE!
Name the time and the place.
And if you forgot we're the country that controls 90% of the world's cash with only 5% of its people I can't remember how many times that figure has been thrown in mine face, but here's a few others
90% of the UN military is donated by the US.
We spend more on the military than any four European nations combined
So just name the time and place

EDIT: Oh yeah and we've started almost every war in that last fifty years

So you're a troll who has been banned thrice before? You are not improving your image in the least, good sir.

Actually, only twice. The 3rd one was odd. I'm not really sure what happened. Ah well, let bygones be bygones.

So if Fascism isn't perverted by a dictator, if the people choose it and if a nation as a whole chooses to act in a fascist manner, what is your problem with it. Truly fascist nations tend to be good to their allies, take Athens for example
No problems with it in principle. So now you agree the US is fascist?

Name the time and the place.
And if you forgot we're the country that controls 90% of the world's cash with only 5% of its people I can't remember how many times that figure has been thrown in mine face, but here's a few others
90% of the UN military is donated by the US.
We spend more on the military than any four European nations combined
So just name the time and place

UK, FRANCE, GERMANY, RUSSIA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, VIETNAM, BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, AUSTRALIA, CANADA, SPAIN, POLAND, BULGARIA, SERBIA...

Maybe to didn't know but IN ANY WAR that America won it had ALLIES besides her, alone USA couldn beat MEXICO. Face it!

And how are you gonna fight against any enemy? You gonna throw money in their face?

And King Bush's are not?

Saddam kept the peace. His society was healthy, smart, and generally quite nice.

The same cannot be said for american society, I'm afraid.

Killing dissenters is a woeful way to "keep the peace"

He didn't kill insurgents -- he killed suspects.

His society had no chance to vote him out of office -- another major flaw with him. We gave them the chance to vote, and they jumped at the opportunity.. some in very tough conditions.

Average Joe America might not be quite as well educated as the average Western European or denizen of Japan, but probably we're a fair sight more educated than Average Ali under Saddam was.

One final thing:

I don't know where you get your news, but let me dispel some myths for you:

a) We can say whatever the hell we want to in America with impunity, so long as we're not talking about blowing up civilians or (otherwise) killing people, etc.

b) American citizens are not kidnapped, tortured, or killed for talking. We might detain someone we have evidence on, with strong beliefs that they're going to blow up a mall or something horrible like that... but we don't kill or torture our own people. Saddam did... like I said, a paranoid, small-time Stalin.

UK, FRANCE, GERMANY, RUSSIA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, VIETNAM, BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, AUSTRALIA, CANADA, SPAIN, POLAND, BULGARIA, SERBIA...

Maybe to didn't know but IN ANY WAR that America won it had ALLIES besides her, alone USA couldn beat MEXICO. Face it!

That is very true. Hell, the Americans couldn't even have their own revolution without the French doing most of the fighting for them.

Oh, and you forgot to mention Bhutan.

No problems with it in principle. So now you agree the US is fascist?
I personally don't think that america as a whole is fascist
I think Bush would like to be a fascist dictator, but doesn't have the necessary support, I mean if you're at the top who wouldn't want to stay. But also personally I wish america as a whole was fascist, and I'm not very concerned with bush right now I mean he's on his way out and who is gonna replace him Rudi Gulianni?

That is very true. Hell, the Americans couldn't even have their own revolution without the French doing most of the fighting for them.

Oh, and you forgot to mention Bhutan.

Right! In all battles that rebels won there were Franch troops!

Killing dissenters is a woeful way to "keep the peace"

He didn't kill insurgents -- he killed suspects.

His society had no chance to vote him out of office -- another major flaw with him. We gave them the chance to vote, and they jumped at the opportunity.. some in very tough conditions.

Average Joe America might not be quite as well educated as the average Western European or denizen of Japan, but probably we're a fair sight more educated than Average Ali under Saddam was.

Bush has killed far more dissenters in his (illegal) 6 years than Saddam would have to kill in a lifetime! And the iraqi people did have a chance to exercise their rights to a free election. And the Iraqi people were far better educated than the VAST majority of americans.

Name the time and the place.
And if you forgot we're the country that controls 90% of the world's cash with only 5% of its people I can't remember how many times that figure has been thrown in mine face, but here's a few others
90% of the UN military is donated by the US.
We spend more on the military than any four European nations combined
So just name the time and place
Is anyone else getting this?! :D He's fully jumped to the defence of his nation's military pride. WTF man, nationalism is so 20th century. Insult the Australian ARMY, see what I do. See what any Aussie does. Go and question Canadian military capabilities, then see if they jump up looking for a 'time and a place'!:p You're like an over-sexed teenage jock. "You wanna start me, BITCH?! My army will BOOMERANG your army's arse back to the northern hemisphere!".
;) Grow up.

What educated person does not oppose america? How can you support a nation that kills and invades other peaceful, democratic nations for fun?

Which peaceful, democratic nations were those exactly? Was it Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Afghanistan, or Iraq? I didn't recall them being peaceful, democratic nations, but perhaps they were. No, no, I'm pretty sure they weren't.

I think most of the folks on here from other countries that resent America do so because their own countries are stagnant and underwhelming. Go do something great. You'll feel better for it and will lose some of that bitterness.

UK, FRANCE, GERMANY, RUSSIA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, VIETNAM, BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, AUSTRALIA, CANADA, SPAIN, POLAND, BULGARIA, SERBIA...

Maybe to didn't know but IN ANY WAR that America won it had ALLIES besides her, alone USA couldn beat MEXICO. Face it!

And how are you gonna fight against any enemy? You gonna throw money in their face?
I'm sorry, what?

We easily defeated Mexico. There's a reason we took a significant portion of its territory in the U.S.-Mexican war. It wasn't because we were unable to defeat them, most assuredly. You, sir, are highly misinformed.

Right! In all battles that rebels won there were Franch troops!

Not the early ones. The only time the Revolutionaries won without thousands of French troops was at Bunker Hill, if you can call that a victory.

UK, FRANCE, GERMANY, RUSSIA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, VIETNAM, BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, AUSTRALIA, CANADA, SPAIN, POLAND, BULGARIA, SERBIA...

Maybe to didn't know but IN ANY WAR that America won it had ALLIES besides her, alone USA couldn beat MEXICO. Face it!

Oh Man thanks I needed a good laugh
Oh and by the way we already own mexico

That is very true. Hell, the Americans couldn't even have their own revolution without the French doing most of the fighting for them.

Oh, and you forgot to mention Bhutan.

This is hilarious.

You must be joking or insanely jealous of the USA.

Which peaceful, democratic nations were those exactly? Was it Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Afghanistan, or Iraq? I didn't recall them being peaceful, democratic nations, but perhaps they were. No, no, I'm pretty sure they weren't.

I think most of the folks on here from other countries that resent America do so because their own countries are stagnant and underwhelming. Go do something great. You'll feel better for it and will lose some of that bitterness.

Iraq was stable, peaceful, and democratic. Much more than can be said for America.

Oh Man thanks I needed a good laugh
Oh and by the way we already own mexico

yeah, if we used all our strength it would take about an hour to take over Mexico...

Just drop some tools on the country, they'd all run and hide.

NO QUIERO TRABAJAR!

hehe j/k

This is hilarious.

You must be joking or insanely jealous of the USA.

Jealous? Of the US?

Indeed, you are a jolly funneh man.

Iraq was stable, peaceful, and democratic. Much more than can be said for America.

IRAQ WAS NOT DEMOCRATIC.

Those poor people who suffered under the rule of a madman had NO CHOICE of electing anyone else.

I'm sorry, what?

We easily defeated Mexico. There's a reason we took a significant portion of its territory in the U.S.-Mexican war. It wasn't because we were unable to defeat them, most assuredly. You, sir, are highly misinformed.

You defeated them cuz in the same thime in MEXICO pesants started an upspring. So it appeares that you're highly misinformed.

Jealous? Of the US?

Indeed, you are a jolly funneh man.

I'm trying to find the source of your hatred for the US... if it isn't jealousy, what is it?

Are you a socialist who despises work? Does America's work ethic piss you off?

Do you hate free enterprise?

etc.

IRAQ WAS NOT DEMOCRATIC.

Those poor people who suffered under the rule of a madman had NO CHOICE of electing anyone else.

IRAQ WAS DEMOCRATIC!

There were many choices on the ballot cards.

And now your the pot calling the kettle black, when the kettle's maroon.

Remember also, that with the reputation the US is building, you wouldn't need to look hard for a long list countries willing to place economic sanctions on the US if they were to play up. Give 'em a taste of their own medicine.

I'm trying to find the source of your hatred for the US... if it isn't jealousy, what is it?

Are you a socialist who despises work? Does America's work ethic piss you off?

Do you hate free enterprise?

etc.

No, we hate annoying "we gonna beat you up if you are not like us" guys

I'm trying to find the source of your hatred for the US... if it isn't jealousy, what is it?

Are you a socialist who despises work? Does America's work ethic piss you off?

Do you hate free enterprise?

etc.

Americans make me angry. You (not you specifically) fat slobs eating Deep Fried chocolate chicken in your huge ass gas guzzling SUV's, without a care who you effect with your decisions.

Remember also, that with the reputation the US is building, you wouldn't need to look hard for a long list countries willing to place economic sanctions on the US if they were to play up. Give 'em a taste of their own medicine.

I agree. It's about time we make the americans pay for their crimes against humanity and Earth.

You defeated them cuz in the same thime in MEXICO pesants started an upspring. So it appeares that you're highly misinformed.
This guy is hilarious. We should keep him around just to relieve stress
He reminds me of this french guy I met, who told me that he thought that american pacifists were too arrogant for him to support because they automatically assumed that if america wanted to she could take over the world.
I got a good laugh out of that one too.

You defeated them cuz in the same thime in MEXICO pesants started an upspring. So it appeares that you're highly misinformed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War

One of the contributing factors to loss of the war by Mexico was the inferiority of their weapons. The Mexican army was using British firearms from the Napoleonic War, while American troops had the latest American manufactured weapons. Furthermore, Mexican troops were trained to fire with their rifle held loosely at hip-level, while Americans used the much more accurate method of butting the rifle up to the shoulder and taking aim along the barrel.

As I said, you are misinformed.

This guy is hilarious. We should keep him around just to relieve stress
He reminds me of this french guy I met, who told me that he thought that american pacifists were too arrogant for him to support because they automatically assumed that if america wanted to she could take over the world.
I got a good laugh out of that one too.

On the other hand you're pathetic!

This guy is hilarious. We should keep him around just to relieve stress
He reminds me of this french guy I met, who told me that he thought that american pacifists were too arrogant for him to support because they automatically assumed that if america wanted to she could take over the world.
I got a good laugh out of that one too.

She was right on one count, but wrong on the other.

Americans are arrogant, but their entire military couldn't take over Vanatu, much less the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War



As I said, you are misinformed.

Sounds rather POV, no?

She was right on one count, but wrong on the other.

Americans are arrogant, but their entire military couldn't take over Vanatu, much less the world.

I'm not SHE!

IRAQ WAS DEMOCRATIC!

There were many choices on the ballot cards.

And now your the pot calling the kettle black, when the kettle's maroon.

other names on the ballot card -- pretense, nothing more... rofl

IF anyone had voted for anyone else, he'd have been killed. Saddam .. is .. a .. sociopath.

Iraq was as democratic as North Korea.

No, we hate annoying "we gonna beat you up if you are not like us" guys
Oh you are gravely mistaken, we are not beat you up if you are not like us guys, We are kill you dead if you are not like us guys

Unfortuanately mine is the minority opinion at least in america as whole
But praise the Lord, we've got my man Bush in there doing the job right

I'm not SHE!

1. I was not talking to you.

2. Whoops!

She was right on one count, but wrong on the other.

Americans are arrogant, but their entire military couldn't take over Vanatu, much less the world.

I assure you, if we used our entire strength, America could not only take over Vanuatu, but sink Vanuatu.

other names on the ballot card -- pretense, nothing more... rofl

IF anyone had voted for anyone else, he'd have been killed. Saddam .. is .. a .. sociopath.

Iraq was as democratic as North Korea.

North Korea is Democratic. Much more so than America.

And do you have a black kettle fetish? :p

Sounds rather POV, no?
Now you are making yourself look like an idiot. While Wikipedia is occasionally an unreliable source, I've found for the most part it is essentially a model for the internet itself: sure, there can be bullshit, but a savvy person can detect such bullshit. Most of the time people don't bother.

Thusly, one can presume this article is quite accurate. Thusly, you are wrong.

And now your the pot calling the kettle black, when the kettle's maroon.
Though I do find this comment hilarious for some reason.

She was right on one count, but wrong on the other.

Americans are arrogant, but their entire military couldn't take over Vanatu, much less the world.
Okay man have you paid attention lately We just took over two countries and are gearing up to take over a third.
Where have you been?

Now you are making yourself look like an idiot. While Wikipedia is occasionally an unreliable source, I've found for the most part it is essentially a model for the internet itself: sure, there can be bullshit, but a savvy person can detect such bullshit. Most of the time people don't bother.

Thusly, one can presume this article is quite accurate. Thusly, you are wrong.

Ah. I see statements regarding both "Superior American Firearms" and "Superior American Drill" and "Superior American Leadership".

Can you honestly say that the article is not POV?

Oh, and it's bad policy to assume.

Oh you are gravely mistaken, we are not beat you up if you are not like us guys, We are kill you dead if you are not like us guys

Unfortuanately mine is the minority opinion at least in america as whole
But praise the Lord, we've got my man Bush in there doing the job right

try talking some sense with Caribel... dude has lost touch with reality. I need to go back to work.

I assure you, if we used our entire strength, America could not only take over Vanuatu, but sink Vanuatu.

Yeah, like Vietnam...

Okay man have you paid attention lately We just took over two countries and are gearing up to take over a third.
Where have you been?

American troops are just poorly trained tagalongs. You seem to be forgeting the British, Polish, Canadian, and the thousands of troops that actually did the fighting and the dying.

Yeah, like Vietnam...

Vietnam was a special case. I doubt even the British could have beaten back the Viet Cong. Not that the Viet Cong victory was a bad thing.

Ah. I see statements regarding both "Superior American Firearms" and "Superior American Drill" and "Superior American Leadership".

Can you honestly say that the article is not POV?

Oh, and it's bad policy to assume.
I said presume not assume.

The word superior means better than. It is not always used is a biased context. American firearms were superior. American leadership was superior. That is fact, not bias.

North Korea is Democratic. Much more so than America.

And do you have a black kettle fetish? :p

sure it is... keep your faith in dictatorships, and you might end up in one.

Americans make me angry. You (not you specifically) fat slobs eating Deep Fried chocolate chicken in your huge ass gas guzzling SUV's, without a care who you effect with your decisions.
Heck yes I am:p

I said presume not assume.

The word superior means better than. It is not always used is a biased context. American firearms were superior. American leadership was superior. That is fact, not bias.

That is the very definition of Bias. No where in the article does it give any technical specifications about the performance of both firearms. Just the typical American superiority complex.

Vietnam was a special case. I doubt even the British could have beaten back the Viet Cong. Not that the Viet Cong victory was a bad thing.

... it sure as hell was for the South Vietnamese, and anyone who believes in economic freedom (or any number of other freedoms, for that matter, that Communism generally tramples on).

sure it is... keep your faith in dictatorships, and you might end up in one.

Americans are so engrained in their dictatorship that they don't even know it.

Vietnam was a special case. I doubt even the British could have beaten back the Viet Cong. Not that the Viet Cong victory was a bad thing.

Yeah, it was special case...

... it sure as hell was for the South Vietnamese, and anyone who believes in economic freedom (or any number of other freedoms, for that matter, that Communism generally tramples on).

Political Freedom>Economic "Freedom"

American troops are just poorly trained tagalongs. You seem to be forgeting the British, Polish, Canadian, and the thousands of troops that actually did the fighting and the dying.
Wow I am eternally in your debt. You have just single-handedly eliminated the american left's biggest argument against the war. Thank you thank you thank you:fluffle:

Wow I am eternally in your debt. You have just single-handedly eliminated the american left's biggest argument in the war. Thank you thank you thank you:fluffle:

Do explain.

Political Freedom>Economic "Freedom"

yes, idiot, and COMMUNISM FAILS AT BOTH.

We vote for our leaders... we're not sent to Gulags in Siberia for dissenting. Did Russians have a choice in removing Stalin? How the FUCK did they have political freedom?

We have a right to make money, start businesses, and keep most of our money. Communism fails at that too -- people are marginalized arbitrarily, not allowed to excel.

That is the very definition of Bias. No where in the article does it give any technical specifications about the performance of both firearms. Just the typical American superiority complex.
I would suggest researching the arms of the American military circa 1848 and the Mexican military circa 1848. You will find that American arms were superior. Mexico had a poor industry at best when it came to manufacturing as well, so not only were their arms inferior in terms of technology, but in terms of durability and numbers.

I, however, am tired of attempting to argue with someone who gets their jollies by being an idiot on an internet forum. I've no reason to continue to deal with one. Good day.

how can freedom-lovers the world around HATE america when we've tried to free Iraqis from a brutal dictator?

Or have you missed that minor point of our mission in Iraq?

Name a DEMOCRATIC country that the United States has invaded...

Afghanistan? Hardly -- Taliban.

Iraq? Try again -- Saddam.

We were in Korea to help stop Communism from taking over the whole of Korea.

We were in Vietnam to stop the northern commies from imposing themselves on the democratic south.

etc.

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but hasn't the CIA worked to destroy many democratic governments simply because they opposed the US or had something we needed? Many times, and correct me if I'm wrong, a dictator would replace the destroyed government.

Do explain.
Since you seem to have a total ignorance of the way that the world in general and america in particular works, I will help you out.
Of the various arguments that the american left (just in case you're wondering that is those american's whose political leanings are more left than right) most have no effect on the population at large. The biggest one is the number of casualties, american dead and wounded. And the way the Bush and Rumsfeld specifically have ran the war. However if america was just a useless tag along, then the numbers of dead must be complete lies coming fromt he leftist political machine, and if america was just a tagalong then the plans and general competence or incompetence of the american Administration would have had no effect whatsoever.
So Thanks troll

yes, idiot, and COMMUNISM FAILS AT BOTH.

We vote for our leaders... we're not sent to Gulags in Siberia for dissenting. Did Russians have a choice in removing Stalin? How the FUCK did they have political freedom?

We have a right to make money, start businesses, and keep most of our money. Communism fails at that too -- people are marginalized arbitrarily, not allowed to excel.

People that do not respect the laws are not privy to it's benifits.

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but hasn't the CIA worked to destroy many democratic governments simply because they opposed the US or had something we needed? Many times, and correct me if I'm wrong, a dictator would replace the destroyed government.
Yup. Cuba comes to mind.

I'm sure there are hundreds more I'm forgeting.

Which peaceful, democratic nations were those exactly? Was it Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Afghanistan, or Iraq? I didn't recall them being peaceful, democratic nations, but perhaps they were. No, no, I'm pretty sure they weren't.
Maybe he was referring to countries like Iran (under Moussadeq), and all of those former-central-american-democracies you fucked in the 60's.
I think most of the folks on here from other countries that resent America do so because their own countries are stagnant and underwhelming. Go do something great. You'll feel better for it and will lose some of that bitterness.
Well, actually, the reason most people, not only here, but everywhere in the world, nurse a resent for the US is simple enough. Basically, in the West, the rise of capitalism saw a cultral phenomenon wherein virtue of character began changing it's definition. Under the heavily christian fuedal states of the past, wealth was sourced from land ownership. Work was something your lord made you do, and so you did it. Virtuosity was judged in terms of piety. However, thanks to increasing social mobility, christian puritans and the myth of the self-made man (both results of capitalism), hard work became seen as the primary virtue of a 'good christian'. In turn, wealth was seen as the product of hard work and virtuosity. In contrast, poverty was seen as a sign of moral flaws, and rose to the syndrome of 'blaming the poor'. It was off these foundations that the west gained its competetive streak, and respect for wealth. However, unlike everywhere else, puritanical christianity/baptism did not fade away in the US, and in fact grew stronger. The result is a culture which genuinely believes the fact that it is the wealthiest nation equates to them as being the superior nation/people. On top of this, in the cultralperspective of Americans, less wealthy countries have something to learn from the US. Overall, this creates an extremely poor reception of Americans and their attitude worldwide.

I could elaborate further, but you get the gist. Americans are disliked because of their cultral inclination to condescend upon those of lesser affluence than they, (mainly everyone).

People that do not respect the laws are not privy to it's benifits.
I absolutely agree

Since you seem to have a total ignorance of the way that the world in general and america in particular works, I will help you out.
Of the various arguments that the american left (just in case you're wondering that is those american's whose political leanings are more left than right) most have no effect on the population at large. The biggest one is the number of casualties, american dead and wounded. And the way the Bush and Rumsfeld specifically have ran the war. However if america was just a useless tag along, then the numbers of dead must be complete lies coming fromt he leftist political machine, and if america was just a tagalong then the plans and general competence or incompetence of the american Administration would have had no effect whatsoever.
So Thanks troll

Ah. I see. But you are wrong.

US troops do the occupying. You know, the dragging families out of bed in the middle of the night, beating the father, and raping the wife and kids?

Yeah, american troops are good at those things.

I absolutely agree

And those very few dissitends Mr. Stalin locked up were very violent people.

People that do not respect the laws are not privy to it's benifits.

i agree on that, of course, but setting a "no free speech" law shouldn't happen in the first place.

Stalin killed some 20 million Russians who didn't agree with him.

Iraq was stable, peaceful, and democratic. Much more than can be said for America.


IRAQ WAS DEMOCRATIC!

There were many choices on the ballot cards.

And now your the pot calling the kettle black, when the kettle's maroon.

Both posts fall into a fallacy that assumes just because your country has a vote its a democracy. Sure they had a vote but what are the chances of those votes going for say someone other then Saddam or the Communist party? If I remember correctly Saddam had like 90% of the vote or even more so obviously he was either the most loved man on earth(which we know he wasn't) or it wasn't truely democratic.

i agree on that, of course, but setting a "no free speech" law shouldn't happen in the first place.

Stalin killed some 20 million Russians who didn't agree with him.

20 Million...pfft.

Those numbers were made up for American propaganda uses. The number of dead number in the dozens.

Ah. I see. But you are wrong.

US troops do the occupying. You know, the dragging families out of bed in the middle of the night, beating the father, and raping the wife and kids?

Yeah, american troops are good at those things.
Heck Americans don't discriminate against sexual preference they might rape the father to

Both posts fall into a fallacy that assumes just because your country has a vote its a democracy. Sure they had a vote but what are the chances of those votes going for say someone other then Saddam or the Communist party? If I remember correctly Saddam had like 90% of the vote or even more so obviously he was either the most loved man on earth(which we know he wasn't) or it wasn't truely democratic.

Did you ever consider that Iraqis liked Mr. Hussein? You know, the Free Healthcare and education?

Triplepost. Woah, spam.

Ah. I see. But you are wrong.

US troops do the occupying. You know, the dragging families out of bed in the middle of the night, beating the father, and raping the wife and kids?

Yeah, american troops are good at those things.

again, this is out of left field. We're there to protect them from wacko Sunni insurgents who can't deal with true democracy in IRaq (read: they miss the power they had under Saddam to violently oppress and intimidate the Shi'a)... there are some sociopaths inthe US Armed Forces, sure, like there are in any army... but the WAY VAST MAJORITY are not ripoping INNOCENT people out of bed at night.

Bad guys, maybe, but not the law-abiding Iraqis.

again, this is out of left field. We're there to protect them from wacko Sunni insurgents who can't deal with true democracy in IRaq (read: they miss the power they had under Saddam to violently oppress and intimidate the Shi'a)... there are some sociopaths inthe US Armed Forces, sure, like there are in any army... but the WAY VAST MAJORITY are not ripoping INNOCENT people out of bed at night.

Bad guys, maybe, but not the law-abiding Iraqis.

Ummm...yes. If you would take your nose out of the Cable News ass, you might realise that American Troops rutinely rape and tourture innocents.

Plus, Iraqis have no democracy anymore. They have a puppet government, grovelling benieth the feet of the US.

Ah. I see. But you are wrong.

US troops do the occupying. You know, the dragging families out of bed in the middle of the night, beating the father, and raping the wife and kids?

Yeah, american troops are good at those things.

Good god man, I'm anti-war and anti-Iraq. I also don't have a high opinion of the US armed forces there. But you cannot truly think that every single US soldier goes to Iraq and rapes, tortures and kills randomly? Please do not tell me you think that actually happens?

Yup. Cuba comes to mind.

I'm sure there are hundreds more I'm forgeting.
Hundreds...pfft

Those numbers were made up for anti-American propaganda uses. the number of overthrown nations number in the dozens.

And besides those few nations that america overthrew were very violent nations

Fascisms base root is that the good of the country is better than the good of the individual. but all fascist leaders had to go fuck it up by killing massive amounts of innocents. America being Fasict is way off does the government force all industry to build what they desire? No. the buyer does Wait a sec thats an individual so our entire country is run by the individual i guess were not fascist.

I am curious Caribel, what is your definition of a dictatorship? Bush is alot of things, uninformed and maybe even fairly incompetent, but a dictator he isn't. He doesn't and cannot rule by fiat. Whether or not he is evil is open to interpretation. Unlike a dictator, Bush is OUT in two more years, whether he wants to be or not. Saddam Hussein never had to worry about losing his job because the elections, assuming they had real ones, would always go in his favor. Bush doesn't have that option.

Did you ever consider that Iraqis liked Mr. Hussein? You know, the Free Healthcare and education?

And yet as soon as he was removed his statues were torn down. You don't see many Iraqis mourning his removal in public now do you? You sit here and say just because of two programs that he might have been loved? The US provides welfare and public education until college does that mean that Bush is automatically loved? I can't believe your honestly sitting here trying to defend this point. You should have conceeded that you were wrong and moved on to a different point or arguement in order to cut your losses. Now you just make yourself look like a fool by taking this stance.

Hundreds...pfft

Those numbers were made up for anti-American propaganda uses. the number of overthrown nations number in the dozens.

And besides those few nations that america overthrew were very violent nations

Pot, meet Kettle.

*mad cookware sex*

20 Million...pfft.

Those numbers were made up for American propaganda uses. The number of dead number in the dozens.

Oh....dear god. I cannot believe it. Millions died in the Gulag system and millions more in the Purges. There may not be a concrete number, but twenty is the best we have. You truly believe that only 'dozens' died in under Stalin? The man who had his own son shot for being captured by the Wehrmacht?

Good god man, I'm anti-war and anti-Iraq. I also don't have a high opinion of the US armed forces there. But you cannot truly think that every single US soldier goes to Iraq and rapes, tortures and kills randomly? Please do not tell me you think that actually happens?

Of COURSE it happens! You would have to be an idiot not to see it happen! US Troops need their jollies, you know.

Ummm...yes. If you would take your nose out of the Cable News ass, you might realise that American Troops rutinely rape and tourture innocents.

Plus, Iraqis have no democracy anymore. They have a puppet government, grovelling benieth the feet of the US.
You say that like its a bad thing

And yet as soon as he was removed his statues were torn down. You don't see many Iraqis morning his removal in public now do you? You sit here and say just because of two programs that he might have been loved? The US provides welfare and public education until college does that mean that Bush is automatically loved? I can't believe your honestly sitting here trying to defend this point. You should have conceeded that you were wrong and moved on to a different point or arguement in order to cut your losses. Now you just make yourself look like a fool by taking this stance.

American Welfare? You joke!

And I saw AMERICAN troops pulling down those statues that his people built for them. They were just signaling the end of freedom and democracy in Iraq.

Of COURSE it happens! You would have to be an idiot not to see it happen! US Troops need their jollies, you know.

I know it happens. I stated that it is only a minority that does this. That it is not every single soldier. That most are there just to do a job that they either believe in, or do for the money. The majority should not be grouped in with the minority.

Oh....dear god. I cannot believe it. Millions died in the Gulag system and millions more in the Purges. There may not be a concrete number, but twenty is the best we have. You truly believe that only 'dozens' died in under Stalin? The man who had his own son shot for being captured by the Wehrmacht?

More American propaganda.

American Welfare? You joke!

And I saw AMERICAN troops pulling down those statues that his people built for them. They were just signaling the end of freedom and democracy in Iraq.

Yet in the same images, Iraqi crowds were seen beating these statues, burning effigies of Hussein and destroying propaganda posters of him. Were these people actors, hired for the occasion?

American Welfare? You joke!

And I saw AMERICAN troops pulling down those statues that his people built for them. They were just signaling the end of freedom and democracy in Iraq.

You don't address a single point I bring up in that post at all. I'm not going to waste my any more of my time on you if this is the extent of which you can post.

I know it happens. I stated that it is only a minority that does this. That it is not every single soldier. That most are there just to do a job that they either believe in, or do for the money. The majority should not be grouped in with the minority.

No, it happens on a regular basis. It's reported on noncensored news, ya know.

US troops are notorious for their rape and tourture. It happened in Germany, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Italy, and Saudi Arabia. And now it's happening in Iraq.

Yet in the same images, Iraqi crowds were seen beating these statues, burning effigies of Hussein and destroying propaganda posters of him. Were these people actors, hired for the occasion?

I guess you didn't see the guns, or the familes being held hostage, did you?

American Welfare? You joke!

And I saw AMERICAN troops pulling down those statues that his people built for them. They were just signaling the end of freedom and democracy in Iraq.
Now that I have to disagree with, American troops were far to busy "getting their jollys off" and looking for the millions of US dollars that saddam had stashed away, to pull down that statue. And the high ups had no interest in ordering them to do it. they were trying to finangle their way into owning Iraqs oil.

Now that I have to disagree with, American troops were far to busy "getting their jollys off" and looking for the millions of US dollars that saddam had stashed away, to pull down that statue. And the high ups had no interest in ordering them to do it. they were trying to finangle their way into owning Iraqs oil.

Fear can make people do crazy things.

More American propaganda.

Not really...eminent historians have gone over the figures for decades, coming up with thousands of accounts of deaths, statistics of those killed, the camps themselves. You cannot deny this evidence; there is just as much as there is for the Holocaust, and you cannot deny that happened, surely?

This article, lists the numbers and the debate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Death_toll

The Parliamentary Assembly of the European Council has stated that according to cautious estimations (exact data is not available) the number of people killed by the communist regime in the USSR can be 20 million victims.

I guess you didn't see the guns, or the familes being held hostage, did you?

What? Where's your evidence for this?

Not really...eminent historians have gone over the figures for decades, coming up with thousands of accounts of deaths, statistics of those killed, the camps themselves. You cannot deny this evidence; there is just as much as there is for the Holocaust, and you cannot deny that happened, surely?

This article, lists the numbers and the debate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Death_toll

The Holocaust was also American Propaganda. Just another excuse to rape and pillage.

Oh, and the Europeans know those numbers are untrue, they just don't have the guts to stand up to America.

No, it happens on a regular basis. It's reported on noncensored news, ya know.

US troops are notorious for their rape and tourture. It happened in Germany, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Italy, and Saudi Arabia. And now it's happening in Iraq.
More anti-american american propaganda ;) Just another excuse to slander the greatest nation on earth
And the anti-american's know these numbers aren't true they just...
*can't stand the irony and rolls on the floor laughing uproariously*

What? Where's your evidence for this?

I saw the video back when America first occupied Iraq. I assure you, it was breathtaking.

The Holocaust was also American Propaganda. Just another excuse to rape and pillage.

Oh, and the Europeans know those numbers are untrue, they just don't have the guts to stand up to America.

I....I can't even begin to fathom your point of view. You joke, surely? American propaganda? This is just insane. You cannot argue with the thousands of survivors, the eyewitness reports of them and the troops who found them - including British, Russian, French and Canadian troops. You cannot argue with the statistics and records the Nazis themselves left behind, or the camps that still exist.

The man who had his own son shot for being captured by the Wehrmacht?
Wait, he actually did that? I thought it was just a rumor, or perhaps urban myth would be a better term to use.

The Holocaust was also American Propaganda. Just another excuse to rape and pillage.
Were I a man without self-control, I would start insulting you at this point. I am approximately 1/8th Jewish, and I find the idea that the Holocaust was propaganda to be extremely offensive. I now understand why you have been repeatedly banned.

I saw the video back when America first occupied Iraq. I assure you, it was breathtaking.

...

What? I watched most of those reports as well - took a whole day to watch them. Which videos, exactly, show the US troops forcing them to do that? They seemed rather eager to do it to be acting, and the US troops seemed rather more busy with looting...

American Welfare? You joke!

And I saw AMERICAN troops pulling down those statues that his people built for them. They were just signaling the end of freedom and democracy in Iraq.

did you miss the subsequent crowds cheering his downfall, taking their shoes off and whacking his statue(s) with the shoes -- an insult in Middle Eastern Muslim culture.

Saddam was a ruthless, sociopathic despot. If you think they had democracy... rofl. I'm sorry, but that's just unequivocally wrong.

The Holocaust was also American Propaganda. Just another excuse to rape and pillage.

Oh, and the Europeans know those numbers are untrue, they just don't have the guts to stand up to America.
They are not afraid of America they are afraid of the Elders of Zion, and Da Vinci's Code.:D

Wait, he actually did that? I thought it was just a rumor, or perhaps urban myth would be a better term to use.


Were I a man without self-control, I would start insulting you at this point. I am approximately 1/8th Jewish, and I find the idea that the Holocaust was propaganda to be extremely offensive. I now understand why you have been repeatedly banned.

My apologies. He disowned him, but didn't shoot him. I got the facts mixed up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Dzhugashvili

I....I can't even begin to fathom your point of view. You joke, surely? American propaganda? This is just insane. You cannot argue with the thousands of survivors, the eyewitness reports of them and the troops who found them - including British, Russian, French and Canadian troops. You cannot argue with the statistics and records the Nazis themselves left behind, or the camps that still exist.

The Nazis prepped for mass exterminations, but were not able to execute (hoho) their plans before the war ended.

To clarify, Jews and other "undesirables" were forced into labour camps, but their conditions were not nearly as bad as America would like us to believe, and there were no mass exterminations.

I....I can't even begin to fathom your point of view.

Please. Any educated person knows that the Nazis never existed -- they were just American propaganda to justify the US invasion of Western and Central Europe. Those people also know that "Europe" doesn't exist -- it is just part of America. Only fools think otherwise!

Were I a man without self-control, I would start insulting you at this point. I am approximately 1/8th Jewish, and I find the idea that the Holocaust was propaganda to be extremely offensive. I now understand why you have been repeatedly banned.

If you wish, you may insult me. I will take no offence.

Caribel, did you believe Baghdad Bob when he said that we were nowhere near Baghdad... when we had real-time video of US forces taking it over?

Were you part of Saddam's regime?

I've never heard anyone so apologetic for such a known ruthless dictator.

The Nazis prepped for mass exterminations, but were not able to execute (hoho) their plans before the war ended.

To clarify, Jews and other "undesirables" were forced into labour camps, but their conditions were not nearly as bad as America would like us to believe, and there were no mass exterminations.

So...where did the ten million + people go after the war ended? Did they migrate to some unknown Caribbean Island? Where did the entire families go, where did the entire towns go?

Please. Any educated person knows that the Nazis never existed -- they were just American propaganda to justify the US invasion of Western and Central Europe. Those people also know that "Europe" doesn't exist -- it is just part of America. Only fools think otherwise!
Hail Oh brother for I have found one who knows the truth :D

...

What? I watched most of those reports as well - took a whole day to watch them. Which videos, exactly, show the US troops forcing them to do that? They seemed rather eager to do it to be acting, and the US troops seemed rather more busy with looting...

It was on the internet. They would never show something so real on american cable news, silly! :p

I wish I had saved that file...

Caribel, did you believe Baghdad Bob when he said that we were nowhere near Baghdad... when we had real-time video of US forces taking it over?

Were you part of Saddam's regime?

I've never heard anyone so apologetic for such a known ruthless dictator.

Well, I always wondered who the Cameraman for Baghdad Bob was...

If you think they had democracy... rofl.

But they did have democracy -- they had the choice to vote for Saddam or get tortured/executed. As we all know, that is the basic for a functional democracy: fear and intimidation. Of course, those same people complain about wire-taps and the PATRIOT Act also say how good and democratic a genocidal, megalomaniacal despot was.

My apologies. He disowned him, but didn't shoot him. I got the facts mixed up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Dzhugashvili
Ah. That makes sense, from the perspective of Stalin. I know if I was Stalin and thought like him I would have disowned my son. As myself, of course, I would never do that, but that is beside the point.

Mr. Caribel, kindly remove yourself from the vicinity of this forum before some of us lose our self-control and abuse the privalege of posting.

did you miss the subsequent crowds cheering his downfall, taking their shoes off and whacking his statue(s) with the shoes -- an insult in Middle Eastern Muslim culture.

Saddam was a ruthless, sociopathic despot. If you think they had democracy... rofl. I'm sorry, but that's just unequivocally wrong.

See my other posts. Their familes were being held hostage, and they were doing it at gunpoint.

Hail Oh brother for I have found one who knows the truth :D

And when Saddam dies, he'll sit at the right hand of Jesus... with Stalin on the left.

Ah. That makes sense, from the perspective of Stalin. I know if I was Stalin and thought like him I would have disowned my son. As myself, of course, I would never do that, but that is beside the point.

Mr. Caribel, kindly remove yourself from the vicinity of this forum before some of us lose our self-control and abuse the privalege of posting.

Yes, sorry. I have so many history books I bought back from the US (So cheap) that I'm getting a few facts wrong at times.

Caribel, did you believe Baghdad Bob when he said that we were nowhere near Baghdad... when we had real-time video of US forces taking it over?

Were you part of Saddam's regime?

I've never heard anyone so apologetic for such a known ruthless dictator.

Being part of the Iraqi government would be fun. I could really see a great man in action!

See my other posts. Their familes were being held hostage, and they were doing it at gunpoint.

sure they were...

sure they were...

It was on the internet. If you would just search for them, I'm sure they're still there.

See my other posts. Their familes were being held hostage, and they were doing it at gunpoint.

After searching Google and various news sites for a while, I have found not one scrap of evidence for your claims. Not even on conspiracy sites. Thus, given your previous statements that the Holocaust was an American Conspiracy, I announce your claims utter rubbish.

Yes, sorry. I have so many history books I bought back from the US (So cheap) that I'm getting a few facts wrong at times.
That's okay. Not like you were intentionally misleading me or anything. Everyone makes mistakes. History is one subject where mistakes are especially prolific.

...that's probably not the word I want to use, but whatever.

Mr. Caribel, kindly remove yourself from the vicinity of this forum before some of us lose our self-control and abuse the privalege of posting.

Do not be worried, self control is what many americans lack.

Being part of the Iraqi government would be fun. I could really see a great man in action!

So, how much longer are you gonna continue yanking everyones chains and desperately trying to piss people off?

Being part of the Iraqi government would be fun. I could really see a great man in action!

Any reply to your Holocaust accusations that I debunked? The statistics, the evidnece of the Nazis themselves, the survivors, the allied troops who found the camps, the camps themselves, the historical research that has gone on for decades...

After searching Google and various news sites for a while, I have found not one scrap of evidence for your claims. Not even on conspiracy sites. Thus, given your previous statements that the Holocaust was an American Conspiracy, I announce your claims utter rubbish.

Than your internet is censored.

*is thankful to be living in free nation*

So, how much longer are you gonna continue yanking everyones chains and desperately trying to piss people off?

I'm sorry if you cant take dissenting opinions.

That's okay. Not like you were intentionally misleading me or anything. Everyone makes mistakes. History is one subject where mistakes are especially prolific.

...that's probably not the word I want to use, but whatever.

I try never to mislead. Its just that I went from a book on World War Two to the Battle of Blenheim to Monte Cassino, and things get a tad jumbled up.

Any reply to your Holocaust accusations that I debunked? The statistics, the evidnece of the Nazis themselves, the survivors, the allied troops who found the camps, the camps themselves, the historical research that has gone on for decades...

I responded to you a few posts back.

Than your internet is censored.

*is thankful to be living in free nation*

Okay...

I'm not in China, I'm in Great Britain. Which, as far as I know, has yet to censor Google or any other site on the web. Given your past statements, and the fact that you cannot provide any evidence for them, I pronounce you troll extraordinaire.

So you're a troll who has been banned thrice before? You are not improving your image in the least, good sir.
Actually, only twice. The 3rd one was odd. I'm not really sure what happened. Ah well, let bygones be bygones.
Caribel didn't you learn anything the first two times you got kicked off?
People want to operate within reality as they see it. Whether it is actually reality or not has no bearing on the situation

Okay...

I'm not in China, I'm in Great Britain. Which, as far as I know, has yet to censor Google or any other site on the web. Given your past statements, and the fact that you cannot provide any evidence for them, I pronounce you troll extraordinaire.

The facts are RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES! Just search for them, and you shall find.

I try never to mislead. Its just that I went from a book on World War Two to the Battle of Blenheim to Monte Cassino, and things get a tad jumbled up.
Woah. With that odd jumping it's a wonder you didn't mess up a great deal more than just what occurred to Stalin's son.

I responded to you a few posts back.

Stating that it is 'American Propaganda' is hardly an answer. You cannot deny the array of evidence that backs up the Holocaust. And why the Americans? Even the Neo-Nazi apologists state that its a Jewish Conspiracy for crying out loud, and their views hardly make any sense at all.

Caribel didn't you learn anything the first two times you got kicked off?
People want to operate within reality as they see it. Whether it is actually reality or not has no bearing on the situation

I'm sorry if you cannot accept a dissenting opinion.

We all feed on tragedy. It's like blood to a vampire.

Vicariously I live while the whole world dies.

Woah. With that odd jumping it's a wonder you didn't mess up a great deal more than just what occurred to Stalin's son.

I buy too many books and read them in odd orders. Add to that University revision and I'm glad I know what day it is...

EDIT: It's not my fault books are so much cheaper in the US! They call to me...they calls to me, my preciousness...

Stating that it is 'American Propaganda' is hardly an answer. You cannot deny the array of evidence that backs up the Holocaust. And why the Americans? Even the Neo-Nazi apologists state that its a Jewish Conspiracy for crying out loud, and their views hardly make any sense at all.
The Jewish conspiracy is overrated. Jews arn't nearly as powerful as people think.

If it's anything totalitarian, it's socialist.

The Jewish conspiracy is overrated. Jews arn't nearly as powerful as people think.

Then please explain why it is an American conspiracy, please. And please debunk the evidence. Please, I ask of you, do so.

The facts are RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES! Just search for them, and you shall find.

if you actually believe all the anti-American (and pro-Saddam) horseshit you've posted in here...

then I have a bridge in Arizona to sell you.

I buy too many books and read them in odd orders. Add to that University revision and I'm glad I know what day it is...
You can never have too many books. You can never know too much. Always be curious. Always ask questions. Always educate yourself. This is my philosphy, and I like it.

That said, I doubt I would be able to keep everything as straight as you have. But then, you've spent a great deal more time at it than I have, so it could just be your experience allowing you the ability.

Then please explain why it is an American conspiracy, please. And please debunk the evidence. Please, I ask of you, do so.

Because America wants to rule the world. But they know they can't take on the world in a fair fight. So they do it by underhanded means.

Like forcing the UK to do the dirty work of America.

The Jewish conspiracy is overrated. Jews arn't nearly as powerful as people think.
Caribel have you EVER met ANYONE who agreed with you in ANY way

You can never have too many books. You can never know too much. Always be curious. Always ask questions. Always educate yourself. This is my philosphy, and I like it.

That said, I doubt I would be able to keep everything as straight as you have. But then, you've spent a great deal more time at it than I have, so it could just be your experience allowing you the ability.

I love history, and history books are far more cheaper in the US than over here. I try and read a fictional book in between every few history books so I don't overheat and lose everything, but mainly I just love the subject, so I manage to get it all together.

if you actually believe all the anti-American (and pro-Saddam) horseshit you've posted in here...

then I have a bridge in Arizona to sell you.

Isn't there a rather large canyon in Arizona? A bridge could be useful.

Caribel have you EVER met ANYONE who agreed with you in ANY way

probably the Ba'athist Party.

I love history, and history books are far more cheaper in the US than over here. I try and read a fictional book in between every few history books so I don't overheat and lose everything, but mainly I just love the subject, so I manage to get it all together.

Imagine why US "History" books are so cheap...

Isn't there a rather large canyon in Arizona? A bridge could be useful.

it's a national park...

Because America wants to rule the world. But they know they can't take on the world in a fair fight. So they do it by underhanded means.

Like forcing the UK to do the dirty work of America.

Okay...that isn't debunking the evidence. That is in fact spouting conspiracy horsefooey. But then, considering what you've written beforehand, I'm not really surprised you aren't arguing rationally...

I love history, and history books are far more cheaper in the US than over here. I try and read a fictional book in between every few history books so I don't overheat and lose everything, but mainly I just love the subject, so I manage to get it all together.
Me too, though I don't read up on it as often as I like. I love it mainly because I love to explore what might have been. Alternate timelines and all that. It's why I love alternate history novels. Good stuff all, for the most part.

Because America wants to rule the world. But they know they can't take on the world in a fair fight. So they do it by underhanded means.

Like forcing the UK to do the dirty work of America.
This is just laughable

probably the Ba'athist Party.

Nah. I try not to share my politics with my friends. But, since this is a political forum, I think that I shall.

Me too, though I don't read up on it as often as I like. I love it mainly because I love to explore what might have been. Alternate timelines and all that. It's why I love alternate history novels. Good stuff all, for the most part.

I love altrnate history. Harry Turtledove, Harry Harrison, SM Stirling...gotta love that all. Partly the reason I go to Uni is to find more people who do, heh...

it's a national park...

A bridge can be a national park?

Silly Americans!

Caribel I congratulate you. You are an exceedingly successful troll, but I don't have anymore time to waste on you
Bye
PS thanks for the laughs:D

Okay...that isn't debunking the evidence. That is in fact spouting conspiracy horsefooey. But then, considering what you've written beforehand, I'm not really surprised you aren't arguing rationally...

Can you honestly say it's not true?

You people have been puppets of America for too long.

Caribel I congratulate you. You are an exceedingly successful troll, but I don't have anymore time to waste on you
Bye
PS thanks for the laughs:D

I'm not exactly sure what a troll is, but I'm glad that I have brought you good feelings.

I apologize for calling you names...

but you must admit that many of your notions are rather shocking to most of us here.

I'm not exactly sure what a troll is, but I'm glad that I have brought you good feelings.

a troll is a big ugly green(ish) thing with a big, hooked, wart-covered nose.

dear lord i hope you're not really a troll. hehe

I'm not exactly sure what a troll is, but I'm glad that I have brought you good feelings.
A troll is someone who says outrageous things to try to get attention and generally sidetrack the thread, like UN Ambassadorship.
Now normally I enjoy a good tangent, but you are goin a little to far even for me
See ya

Can you honestly say it's not true?

You people have been puppets of America for too long.

I can admit that The Special Relationship is perhaps a little too one-sided, and has been since 1943 onwards, but I cannot reconcile that with your theories that the Holocaust and Stalinistic death tolls are American propaganda. I keep saying this, but I shall repeat again.

If you are so sure of your theory, then present us with evidence to prove that these things are fictional US propaganda, or debunk the evidence that proves them to be correct. If you cannot do either, you have no right to spout these things.

I apologize for calling you names...

but you must admit that many of your notions are rather shocking to most of us here.

No worries. Believe me, I've been called worse for expressing my right to speech.

I know my views are contriversial, but controversy is something to be brought out and talked about, not shoved under the rug of political correctness.

I can admit that The Special Relationship is perhaps a little too one-sided, and has been since 1943 onwards, but I cannot reconcile that with your theories that the Holocaust and Stalinistic death tolls are American propaganda. I keep saying this, but I shall repeat again.

If you are so sure of your theory, then present us with evidence to prove that these things are fictional US propaganda, or debunk the evidence that proves them to be correct. If you cannot do either, you have no right to spout these things.

The American propaganda has so throughly covered your proverbial eyes that you cannot see the truth. Anyone from a nation outside of America or Western Europe can see the truth.

No worries. Believe me, I've been called worse for expressing my right to speech.

I know my views are contriversial, but controversy is something to be brought out and talked about, not shoved under the rug of political correctness.

I'm sorry I didn't know it was political correctness to ask for evidence to back up your admittedly outlandish theories, or the debunking of the copious amounts of evidence already present.

I love altrnate history. Harry Turtledove, Harry Harrison, SM Stirling...gotta love that all. Partly the reason I go to Uni is to find more people who do, heh...
I'm thinking, if I ever turn professional with my writing, I might dabble in alternate history novels. There have been some nice ideas recently that came up in an earlier thread of mine that I would love to pursue if possible. We need more alternate history writers. There are far too few, in my opinion.

I'm sorry I didn't know it was political correctness to ask for evidence to back up your admittedly outlandish theories, or the debunking of the copious amounts of evidence already present.

I have my evidence. Obviously, you are not ready to handle it.

Carebel IV is obivously a troll. He or she(or whatever) uses the "you look for the evidence, retard" excuse to try to tell a "fact" without posting any actual evidence. That's not how to properly debate things. If you want to post something, get your own evidence. It makes you look smart instead of a troll.

As for the question, no, the US isn't truly fascist. Maybe a little bit nationalistic, but not fascist. It might have socialistic capitalism where even if you fail, you'll get supported, but it's hardly fascist. Face it. Bush isn't an all-powerful dictator. He won fair and square. If you have a problem with his victory, then research the electorial process there and hate that. That's how he won. Won majorities in key states to get enough electorial votes without having to get a majority vote. It was close enough.

He'll be out in two years. If he was allowed to run for a third term(which he can't lawfully do), he'd have too little popularity to even win key states. Non-liberals and non-leftists are not retarded bible-thumping evil dictators.

The American propaganda has so throughly covered your proverbial eyes that you cannot see the truth. Anyone from a nation outside of America or Western Europe can see the truth.

Ahhh, rhetoric, the last device of the desperate. You have no evidence, no way of countering the evidence that exists, so of course you must be right and your opponents wrong because we are blind.

Give me even a shred of evidence to back up your theories, and I'll look at them. But if not, you have no proof, and this no theory.

I have my evidence. Obviously, you are not ready to handle it.

What evidence, man? You've yet to show a single shred of it. Please, show it and I will consider it, debate it, analyse it. Hell, if its conclusive, I'll admit I'm wrong. But it'll take some mighty good evidence to do that...

I'm thinking, if I ever turn professional with my writing, I might dabble in alternate history novels. There have been some nice ideas recently that came up in an earlier thread of mine that I would love to pursue if possible. We need more alternate history writers. There are far too few, in my opinion.

Indeed. Stirling is good, but Turtledove has become stagnant and Harrison ridiculous. But between them they've covered so much. I want to do an alternate history novel of the invasion of Britain, circa 1940. But I can count at least six novels that have done that already.

What evidence, man? You've yet to show a single shred of it. Please, show it and I will consider it, debate it, analyse it. Hell, if its conclusive, I'll admit I'm wrong. But it'll take some mighty good evidence to do that...

Okee...

http://www.islamawareness.net/WarCrimes/American/list.html

http://www.islamawareness.net/WarCrimes/American/declassified.html

http://www.islamawareness.net/WarCrimes/American/quotes1.html


There's plenty more, shall I continue?

I don't think the US is facist at the moment. Anyone who knows the real definition of fascism will agree with me.

however, I will admit that America is in it's way to become the next Italy under Benito. If things don't change soon, I could easily see it happening.

I don't think the US is facist at the moment. Anyone who knows the real definition of fascism will agree with me.

however, I will admit that America is in it's way to become the next Italy under Benito. If things don't change soon, I could easily see it happening.

They already have concentration camps...

Indeed. Stirling is good, but Turtledove has become stagnant and Harrison ridiculous. But between them they've covered so much. I want to do an alternate history novel of the invasion of Britain, circa 1940. But I can count at least six novels that have done that already.
Try going for something completely out of the blue, then. Something like Homo Erectus inhabiting North America. Very few things like that have been done, and while my own example was obviously already done by Turtledove, there are surely a number of things one could come up with.

Okee...

http://www.islamawareness.net/WarCrimes/American/list.html

http://www.islamawareness.net/WarCrimes/American/declassified.html

http://www.islamawareness.net/WarCrimes/American/quotes1.html


There's plenty more, shall I continue?

Though they come from rather dubious sources, I cannot debate these points, as many of them are true, have been found to be true and have occured. My point to your accusations here would be that it is not the majority of US soldiers doing this; it is a minority of officers, generals and noncoms. You cannot tar all soldiers with the same brush. Most are decent, kind people just trying to do what they feel to be their duty in these countries.

However, your accusations of the Holocaust and Stalinistic Purges being US propaganda need a lot of evidence to back them up. I see no such evidence. Do you have any?

Try going for something completely out of the blue, then. Something like Homo Erectus inhabiting North America. Very few things like that have been done, and while my own example was obviously already done by Turtledove, there are surely a number of things one could come up with.

Actually I've wanted to do an idea I've had in my head for some time. What if the US forces had lost Bastogne during the Ardennes Offensive? It might well have cost them the war, if not at the very least six or more months and a new political leadership. The results would be huge.

Though they come from rather dubious sources, I cannot debate these points, as many of them are true, have been found to be true and have occured. My point to your accusations here would be that it is not the majority of US soldiers doing this; it is a minority of officers, generals and noncoms. You cannot tar all soldiers with the same brush. Most are decent, kind people just trying to do what they feel to be their duty in these countries.

However, your accusations of the Holocaust and Stalinistic Purges being US propaganda need a lot of evidence to back them up. I see no such evidence. Do you have any?
http://www.rense.com/general70/vanquished.htm

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/advanced_articles/incorrect.004.html

Actually I've wanted to do an idea I've had in my head for some time. What if the US forces had lost Bastogne during the Ardennes Offensive? It might well have cost them the war, if not at the very least six or more months and a new political leadership. The results would be huge.
There you go. That's the kind of thinking I'm talking about. Seek out what appears to be a small conflict and examine all angles, and if it looks like it might actually be huge, then go for it. Me, I'm going to--eventually--try penning an alternate history novel based on religion never existing, replaced instead by philosophy.

Okee...

http://www.islamawareness.net/WarCrimes/American/list.html

http://www.islamawareness.net/WarCrimes/American/declassified.html

http://www.islamawareness.net/WarCrimes/American/quotes1.html


There's plenty more, shall I continue?
Wow. Actual sources. Even though I find those sources suspect(desert storm was terrorism? Wasn't that an attempt to force the Iraqis out of Kuwait?), I find it amazing that you would even bother to attempt to support your conspiracy theories.

http://www.rense.com/general70/vanquished.htm

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/advanced_articles/incorrect.004.html

Oh dear god, you pulled out '66 Answers'. Not only does this not prove that there was an American conspiracy, each of those 66 points have been proved to be complete crap. Most of the questions are either emotional taunts (What does Britain having set up the first camps to do with anything) or using vague and nondescript answer (Forensic evidence. Really, and where would this be then?)

well as far as i'm aware fascism is about restrictions on freedom of speech and movement and general intolerance to foreign or 'non-standard' cultures. so, yeah, it does seem like the us is heading that way, especially in terms of restricting movement and intolerance. obviously, fascism is not the same as nazism and the us is definitely not nazi - there's not even a hint of socialism to start with.

Wow. Actual sources. Even though I find those sources suspect(desert storm was terrorism? Wasn't that an attempt to force the Iraqis out of Kuwait?), I find it amazing that you would even bother to attempt to support your conspiracy theories.
He asked for evidence and I gave it to him. Weather you accept them is up to you.

Oh dear god, you pulled out '66 Answers'. Not only does this not prove that there was an American conspiracy, each of those 66 points have been proved to be complete crap. Most of the questions are either emotional taunts (What does Britain having set up the first camps to do with anything) or using vague and nondescript answer (Forensic evidence. Really, and where would this be then?)

I'm sorry you don't like my sources, but there they are.

http://www.rense.com/general70/vanquished.htm

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/advanced_articles/incorrect.004.html
That second site contradicts some sources I will soon list. I think those are just anti-semetic propoganda fueled by hate.

That second site contradicts some sources I will soon list. I think those are just anti-semetic propoganda fueled by hate.

Hehe...the irony.

I'm sorry you don't like my sources, but there they are.

Apart from the fact that they don't actually prove an American conspiracy at all, they are both rubbish. The first is the usual anti-jewish conspiracy theory seen million times here, and the second is infamous for being used by neo-nazi trolls. Hell, most of the questions are crap, as are their answers.

@ Other NSers: Could one of you link to the page that debunks the 66 questions? I can't find the damn thing since my computer crashed.

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/advanced_articles/incorrect.004.html
*sighs*

Not this again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel
"The Jews of the world have a Holocaust coming, and all the gruesome lies that they have told about people like Germans during the Second World War—all those grotesque Spielberg-like distortions of what really took place—one day will come back to haunt Jews, and I want to not be around when that happens."

http://www.hdot.org/ieindex.html
While Lipstadt's decisive victory was an important legal milestone, the threat of libel continues against publishers of books that expose deniers. Many people are concerned that with the passing away of the generation of witnesses-the survivors, liberators, and contemporaries of the Holocaust—deniers will continue to distort history. But the trial demonstrates both the abundant documentation on the Holocaust and how historians can, through careful and meticulous research, teach us what happened during this terrible period in world history. "As academicians," Lipstadt says, "we must use our scholarship to support historical truth. It is our responsibility."

Emory University is grateful to all those who have supported the establishment of this Web site and the educational work associated with it. The original work on the site was made possible by a generous grant from the Charles H. Revson Foundation.

@ Other NSers: Could one of you link to the page that debunks the 66 questions? I can't find the damn thing since my computer crashed.
At your service.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial1.html

You, Americans, are watching too much CNN, it affects your mind!

Apart from the fact that they don't actually prove an American conspiracy at all, they are both rubbish. The first is the usual anti-jewish conspiracy theory seen million times here, and the second is infamous for being used by neo-nazi trolls. Hell, most of the questions are crap, as are their answers.

@ Other NSers: Could one of you link to the page that debunks the 66 questions? I can't find the damn thing since my computer crashed.
To tell the truth, I don't really like that page either. But it was the only net source I could pull up in a few sec.

You, Americans, are watching too much CNN, it affects your mind!
Excuse me? CNN is probably one of the least biased news networks we have. That does not say much, as all of the news networks are biased to a rather distasteful point, but it is still the most accurate of what we have. I watch the BBC.

Excuse me? CNN is probably one of the least biased news networks we have. That does not say much, as all of the news networks are biased to a rather distasteful point, but it is still the most accurate of what we have. I watch the BBC.

Least biased? LOLZORZ!!!!!!11!!1111!


CNN has more bias than a truckload of Mein Kampf!

CNN has more bias than a truckload of Mein Kampf!
Proof please.

Proof please.

Find copy of Mein Kampf and read it!

BTW the best TV is FREE X TV

Proof please.
http://www.counterbias.com/309.html

Has everyone finally accepted the truth?

http://www.counterbias.com/309.html
Thanks. I thought you meant the usual "CNN is teh liberalz!!1!" thing, which has been debunked a billion times.

As for US media, it's still the most reliable bigger TV station. I also quite like PBS and Jim Lehrer's Newshour.

Nonetheless, there seems to be a lot of self-censorship still in the US Media, and it's only slowly getting better for some after the whole flag-waving business after 9/11.

Has everyone finally accepted the truth?
Not about Holocaust Denial I haven't.

Thanks. I thought you meant the usual "CNN is teh liberalz!!1!" thing, which has been debunked a billion times.

As for US media, it's still the most reliable bigger TV station. I also quite like PBS and Jim Lehrer's Newshour.

Nonetheless, there seems to be a lot of self-censorship still in the US Media, and it's only slowly getting better for some after the whole flag-waving business after 9/11.

Self Censorship? They have no self to censor. They are all litteral mouthpieces of the American Government.

Thats why you don't see the rape, pillage, and uncensored tourture.