NationStates Jolt Archive

I read the books as a child, and I've recently read them again. My kids and I watched the movie. There are a few references to Christianity, but I sure as heck didn't get them as a kid. Why? Because I've never been Christian. Even now, I had to really stretch things to find any sort of correlation...the death and resurrection of Aslan being the most obvious. However, in fantasy novels, this kind of thing isn't exactly new, and I don't go around calling all those books Christian, and getting up in arms about my kids being exposed to them...

So what the heck were people complaining about? It's a fantasy novel, written by a Christian. That doesn't make it a Christian novel. I don't get it. How could there have been any contraversy about this? If you aren't already a Christian, how could this possibly 'convert' you in any way?

I complained about the film being a suck-fest.

So what the heck were people complaining about? It's a fantasy novel, written by a Christian. That doesn't make it a Christian novel. I don't get it. How could there have been any contraversy about this?

Stupid people with nothing better to do bring up stupid shit all the time... The Chronicles of Narnia being religious texts is but one of these things.

I complained about the film being a suck-fest.

It couldn't be worse than the Seventh Seal...

*wanders off to watch a Harry Potter movie*

Coincidentally, Jo is a Christian too - and has said that it does affect the plot and all ;)

If you aren't already a Christian, how could this possibly 'convert' you in any way?

Because everybody loves talking lions and we all have centaur friends.

Only thing I found disturbing was what appeared to be sexual tension between Tumnus and Lucy. ... the hell?!

I complained about the film being a suck-fest.
How do you mean? I liked it better than the BBC version of yore...I quite liked it in fact, considering THE MOVIE IS FOR KIDS:)

The movie itself might not have held all the religious symbolism. However, the series most definately does. It's quite subtle, but it's there nonetheless.

Of course, as with most symbolism, it only works if you read it as a symbol instead of as simply a story-book...

Stupid people with nothing better to do bring up stupid shit all the time... The Chronicles of Narnia being religious texts is but one of these things.


Bullshit; those books are offensively Christian. I use the term 'offensive' as the religious subtext is insidious and rather bigoted.

Because everybody loves talking lions and we all have centaur friends.

Only thing I found disturbing was what appeared to be sexual tension between Tumnus and Lucy. ... the hell?!
No DOUBT! My husband picked up on that right away...he's never read the books and said...what, do they get married later? All the trembling and touching and 'I'm a baaaaad faun'...

The Chronicles of Narnia are filled with deep religious themes. CS Lewis was one of the greatest christian writer/philosophers in history. The Narnia books were designed to slip the most essential christian messages past the censors of a secular mind and impart lessons without obvious religious elements to inspire rejection.

Which is, now I think about it, a really wicked idea. A pity the films fail to measure up.

No DOUBT! My husband picked up on that right away...he's never read the books and said...what, do they get married later? All the trembling and touching and 'I'm a baaaaad faun'...


In deference to the New Family Values, they're going to have one sex change + a civil partnership or summat.

The movie itself might not have held all the religious symbolism. However, the series most definately does. It's quite subtle, but it's there nonetheless.But you're only going to pick up on that symbolism in a religious context if you are aware of what those symbols represent.

Of course, as with most symbolism, it only works if you read it as a symbol instead of as simply a story-book...Exactly. Even looking for this stuff, I'm sure I missed more than half, since I'm really not that familiar with Christianity.

Bullshit; those books are offensively Christian. I use the term 'offensive' as the religious subtext is insidious and rather bigoted.

I'll have to read them again, then. I only did so when I was 9, and even then I only read parts of each...

...Mainly because my dad has this thing about people reading fiction.

Bullshit; those books are offensively Christian. I use the term 'offensive' as the religious subtext is insidious and rather bigoted.
Oooookaaaaay....? Can you give me some examples? I'm just not seeing it. I've read a lot of books in my time, and a big chunk of those have been fantasy. Gods and miracles and magic and blah blah blah blah blah fills them all to the brim...are they are insidiously Christian as well?

But you're only going to pick up on that symbolism in a religious context if you are aware of what those symbols represent.

Exactly. Even looking for this stuff, I'm sure I missed more than half, since I'm really not that familiar with Christianity.

Keep in mind that the Lion (it's been a while, I dont recall names) is representative of Christ. Resurrected from the dead, comes to their aid when they call upon him, etc...

They're extremely Christian, yeah. I dunno about the film, from the adverts it looked like a LotR knock-off. I don't care if it was actually different, if what makes it stand out is being like another film then I can't be arsed with it.

No DOUBT! My husband picked up on that right away...he's never read the books and said...what, do they get married later? All the trembling and touching and 'I'm a baaaaad faun'...

Geeze, I know. *shudder* It physically made me a bit uncomfortable. I wasn't too sure if I should let my kids watch that, but then I thought they'd probably never meet a faun. Of course ... someone could dress up as one ...

I think I'll go have coffee and try to unsee all of that.

The Chronicles of Narnia are filled with deep religious themes. CS Lewis was one of the greatest christian writer/philosophers in history. The Narnia books were designed to slip the most essential christian messages past the censors of a secular mind and impart lessons without obvious religious elements to inspire rejection.
You'd think then, as much as I've read them, that I wouldn't be a diehard atheist...what...the Belgariad isn't insidiously Christian? It's got TONNES of good versus evil symbolism and what not...

Keep in mind that the Lion (it's been a while, I dont recall names) is representative of Christ. Resurrected from the dead, comes to their aid when they call upon him, etc...
And this is different from the myriad of other characters that are miraculously brought back from the dead in so many other fantasy novels? What I'm getting at here is that non-Christians seem to think there is some subtle propaganda in this particular series. I am a non-Christian, and I have to STRETCH things to even see that. The symbolism is meaningless to me, and will be meaningless to my children. So where is the 'danger'? I don't see this series as any different than any other fantasy series that borrow themes from religion, history, and so forth.

Keeping with the theme of the Lion being Christ... You've got 4 main characters, might be a stretch, but could be considered the 4 horsemen (I'd have to read the series again, been a loooong time). Ultimately, the Lion's forces fight the witch's (Satan) forces... (classic good vs evil, but underlying themes make it armaggedonesque)

Oooookaaaaay....? Can you give me some examples? I'm just not seeing it. I've read a lot of books in my time, and a big chunk of those have been fantasy. Gods and miracles and magic and blah blah blah blah blah fills them all to the brim...are they are insidiously Christian as well?

I doubt it.

CS Lewis was perfectly open about the underlying themes and broader purpose of the Narnia books. I'd take his word for it rather than mine.

And this is different from the myriad of other characters that are miraculously brought back from the dead in so many other fantasy novels? What I'm getting at here is that non-Christians seem to think there is some subtle propaganda in this particular series. I am a non-Christian, and I have to STRETCH things to even see that. The symbolism is meaningless to me, and will be meaningless to my children. So where is the 'danger'? I don't see this series as any different than any other fantasy series that borrow themes from religion, history, and so forth.

I'm not saying there's danger. Just that the references are there.

And this is different from the myriad of other characters that are miraculously brought back from the dead in so many other fantasy novels? What I'm getting at here is that non-Christians seem to think there is some subtle propaganda in this particular series. I am a non-Christian, and I have to STRETCH things to even see that. The symbolism is meaningless to me, and will be meaningless to my children. So where is the 'danger'? I don't see this series as any different than any other fantasy series that borrow themes from religion, history, and so forth.


Well, some folks believe Christianity is like passive smoking - the greatest hazard to the human race.
An insidious hidden weapon of mass destruction.

I doubt it.

CS Lewis was perfectly open about the underlying themes and broader purpose of the Narnia books. I'd take his word for it rather than mine.
Are you Christian, or were you raised Christian?

I read the books as a child, and I've recently read them again. My kids and I watched the movie. There are a few references to Christianity, but I sure as heck didn't get them as a kid. Why? Because I've never been Christian. Even now, I had to really stretch things to find any sort of correlation...the death and resurrection of Aslan being the most obvious. However, in fantasy novels, this kind of thing isn't exactly new, and I don't go around calling all those books Christian, and getting up in arms about my kids being exposed to them...

So what the heck were people complaining about? It's a fantasy novel, written by a Christian. That doesn't make it a Christian novel. I don't get it. How could there have been any contraversy about this? If you aren't already a Christian, how could this possibly 'convert' you in any way?

Well, the fact that the Narnia Chronicles were written by C.S. Lewis, the most prominent Christian apologist of his era, and that he specifically stated that the books, and other works like his Space Triology, are allegorical novels portraying Christian principles, might have something to do with it. ;)

How do you mean? I liked it better than the BBC version of yore...I quite liked it in fact, considering THE MOVIE IS FOR KIDS:)

Shut your mouth! The BBC version of yore owns.

Are you Christian, or were you raised Christian?

I dunno bout him/her. I was raised in an ultra-Christian family. I've since opened my eyes and realized how much of a sham the whole deal is. It's all about power and control.

Tilda Swinton is hot.

Sorry, what were we talking about?

Well, the fact that the Narnia Chronicles were written by C.S. Lewis, the most prominent Christian apologist of his era, and that he specifically stated that the books, and other works like his Space Triology, are allegorical novels portraying Christian principles, might have something to do with it. ;)
Consider that these books were written for children. You may know the history of CS Lewis as an adult, and know all about his religious leanings as an adult, but few children are going to care a whiff for any of that. No one I grew up with ever read those books and said, "Wow! The Christian themes!". Nor did they 'soften us up' for Christianity later on.

And so what if someone wants to use what I consider a mass fiction, to write more mass fiction? If people can base novels on Arthurian legend, or native creation stories, on conspiracy theories about Elvis, why not this? Who cares?

If all Christians were like CS Lewis, there wouldn't be as many bad things to say about Christians.

Shut your mouth! The BBC version of yore owns.
Well I was rather upset that the Lucy of this version didn't have prominent buck-teeth...but the animatron animals in the BBC version of yore are decidedly cheesy.

I dunno bout him/her. I was raised in an ultra-Christian family. I've since opened my eyes and realized how much of a sham the whole deal is. It's all about power and control.

Unless, of course, there really is a god.

It couldn't be worse than the Seventh Seal...

You mean Sjunde Inseglet? It's not my favourite film by all means, but it's not in the imdb 250 for nothing, and Narnia nowhere to be found on that list...

I do like the fact that they're going in order of publication and not in the order the series of books currently sits.

Movie order:

1. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe
2. Prince Caspian
3. Voyage of the Dawn Treader
4. The Silver Chair
5. The Magician’s Nephew
6. The Horse and His Boy
7. The Last Battle

If you haven't read the books, read them in the above order.

Or, if you want to read it in real order:

1. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe ch. 1-16
2. Prince Caspian
3. Voyage of the Dawn Treader
4. The Silver Chair
5. The Magician’s Nephew
6. The Horse and His Boy
7. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe ch. 17
8. The Last Battle

You'd think then, as much as I've read them, that I wouldn't be a diehard atheist...what...the Belgariad isn't insidiously Christian? It's got TONNES of good versus evil symbolism and what not...

It ain't the religious message thats essential. It's the moral message; things like personal duty, honour, friendship and forgiveness. Redemption and salvation don't have to be purely religious ideas. Good messages, n'est ce pas?

The Belgariad I've always considered a tricky one. The Eddings always seem to try and enforce an a-religious rule. Their worlds are always polytheistic with extremely human, characterful 'gods'. Again, it's a separation of good messages from religious themes. Religion (doctrine and dogma) in the Eddings world tends to be about control and dominion - The Grolims and the Bear Cult. The 'good gods' tend to be more personal or spiritual in their nature and much more approachable.

Consider that these books were written for children. You may know the history of CS Lewis as an adult, and know all about his religious leanings as an adult, but few children are going to care a whiff for any of that. No one I grew up with ever read those books and said, "Wow! The Christian themes!". Nor did they 'soften us up' for Christianity later on.

And so what if someone wants to use what I consider a mass fiction, to write more mass fiction? If people can base novels on Arthurian legend, or native creation stories, on conspiracy theories about Elvis, why not this? Who cares?

Woah, think of it as brain-washing of sorts. (Trust me on this one, it took me a long time to realize it, but having lived it, I can assure you... Christianity is a cult). If your child were to read nothing but subtle religious propoganda and attend church regularly, would he or she not then be more likely to accept what's taught subconsciously?

Well I was rather upset that the Lucy of this version didn't have prominent buck-teeth...but the animatron animals in the BBC version of yore are decidedly cheesy.

CGI makes not a good film. Just look at Star Wars I-III. Or, better, don't! For your own sake...

I dunno bout him/her. I was raised in an ultra-Christian family. I've since opened my eyes and realized how much of a sham the whole deal is. It's all about power and control.
So then you know the themes, and would be able to pick them out. I don't, and like I said, other than the most obvious...which I still don't take in the context of Christianity...I probably have missed the majority of them. I have no fear that watching the movie or reading the books is going to awake some religious fire in my children. But I believe that there were people boycotting the movie for that very reason. Weirdos.

If all Christians were like CS Lewis, there wouldn't be as many bad things to say about Christians.
Amen:D

If all Christians were like CS Lewis, there wouldn't be as many bad things to say about Christians.

Very true. His "Mere Christianity," for example, is in my opinion the greatest work of Christian apologetics ever written, yet it's completely inoffensive.

Unless, of course, there really is a god.
Prove it. Give me some kind of sign, reason, etc. And, no, blind faith doesnt work. Go read "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

You mean the Sjunde Inseglet? It's not my favourite film by all means, but it's not in the imdb 250 for nothing, and Narnia nowhere to be found on that list...

Some rather awful films are on that list.
Anyway, I religiously prefer Potter.
( and my fave Berman ain't Ingmar - but I digress )

Can't be bothered to watch a Disney-version of anything ( even Pooh is horrible when done by Disney these days ) when there is our fave little wizard to watch.

Unless, of course, there really is a god.

Then she'd be awfully pissed off.

So then you know the themes, and would be able to pick them out. I don't, and like I said, other than the most obvious...which I still don't take in the context of Christianity...I probably have missed the majority of them. I have no fear that watching the movie or reading the books is going to awake some religious fire in my children. But I believe that there were people boycotting the movie for that very reason. Weirdos.
Indeed. As I said, it's only 'dangerous' to people regularly associated with Christianity. Those that aren't regularly exposed to that particular cult will simply read it just as they'd read any other sci-fi / fantasy series.

Then she'd be awfully pissed off.

Eh, wouldnt be the first female I've pissed off...

lol

It ain't the religious message thats essential. It's the moral message; things like personal duty, honour, friendship and forgiveness. Redemption and salvation don't have to be purely religious ideas. Good messages, n'est ce pas? That's the thing...I really don't think Christianity has the market cornered on morals, nor do I think that being exposed to these things are going to suddenly cause my children to spontaneously erupt into Christianity.

That's the thing...I really don't think Christianity has the market cornered on morals, nor do I think that being exposed to these things are going to suddenly cause my children to spontaneously erupt into Christianity.
You should be aware that was C.S. Lewis' goal when he wrote that series... to subtly influence youngsters into joining the Christian religion...

Woah, think of it as brain-washing of sorts. (Trust me on this one, it took me a long time to realize it, but having lived it, I can assure you... Christianity is a cult). If your child were to read nothing but subtle religious propoganda and attend church regularly, would he or she not then be more likely to accept what's taught subconsciously?
The key being 'attend church regularly'.

Which my children will not do until they are old enough to decide whether that is something they'd like to do.

They could read the bible all day, and never touch anything but 'subtle religious propoganda'...but if they aren't being indoctrinated by other means, it will all remain fantasy in their eyes. As it was in mine.

Prove it. Give me some kind of sign, reason, etc. And, no, blind faith doesnt work. Go read "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

I've proven it to myself, which, so far as me personally is concerned, is all that matters. If you wish to follow some other path, you're the one responsible for your own actions, be they ultimately proven right or wrong.

You said "trust me," well, if you don't mind, I'd rather trust Jesus. After all, I know him, but I don't know you. ;)

P.S. I've read Hitchhiker's Guide. Quite enjoyed it, too. ;)

Prove it. Give me some kind of sign, reason, etc. And, no, blind faith doesnt work. Go read "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

I think he was just pointing out that there is always the outside chance that God does indeed exist, regardless of whether evidence can be found to support that claim.

Atheism is fine and rational given what we know, but if there truly exists a Christian God, logic would say that you are screwed.

I only read the books for the first time recently (well, the first three books is all*), and I noticed the symbolism but wasn't offended by it. In fact, some of it made me titter, I think.
I'm an atheist.

Isn't it funny how a fuss was only made when it became a film?

*Edit: Well, the first three books in my girlfriend's box set. The Magician's Nephew, The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, and finally The Horse and His Boy. The Magician's Nephew is definitely set before the other two, but this doesn't agree with Keruvalia's list.

Keeping with the theme of the Lion being Christ... You've got 4 main characters, might be a stretch, but could be considered the 4 horsemen (I'd have to read the series again, been a loooong time). Ultimately, the Lion's forces fight the witch's (Satan) forces... (classic good vs evil, but underlying themes make it armaggedonesque)

I don't think the Pevensies are supposed to be anything but representations of the Everyman. And the Apocalypse references are pretty much all in The Last Battle, which is practically drenched in christian symbolism. The first books in the series aren't nearly as heavy in symbolism. Well, except for the resurrection of Aslan. The only other fantasy book that I recall having a character truly rise from the dead is The Two Towers and that one is much more ambiguous.

If the battle between Aslan's forces and The Witch's army represents anything, I would think it represents the inner struggle of good and evil that exists in every human.

Indeed. As I said, it's only 'dangerous' to people regularly associated with Christianity. Those that aren't regularly exposed to that particular cult will simply read it just as they'd read any other sci-fi / fantasy series.
Alright. Well then I'll continue on my merry way:p

I say this as an Atheist - if you want to escape from manifestations of Christianity, you're not going to have much luck. Unless you invent a time machine and assassinate Roman Emperor Constantine I.

You should be aware that was C.S. Lewis' goal when he wrote that series... to subtly influence youngsters into joining the Christian religion...
That's nice. I wasn't aware of it when I was a child, and it hasn't seemed to have worked. Being aware of it now, and reading the series again hasn't made any impact in that regard. It sounds more like it only works on the semi, or totally converted.

I say this as an Atheist - if you want to escape from manifestations of Christianity, you're not going to have much luck. Unless you invent a time machine and assassinate Roman Emperor Constantine I.

*gets grand ideas*

Atheism is fine and rational given what we know, but if there truly exists a Christian God, logic would say that you are screwed when it comes to Judgement day.

And if there is a Muslim God, Christians are screwed.

The key being 'attend church regularly'.

Which my children will not do until they are old enough to decide whether that is something they'd like to do.

They could read the bible all day, and never touch anything but 'subtle religious propoganda'...but if they aren't being indoctrinated by other means, it will all remain fantasy in their eyes. As it was in mine.
You hope, lol.

I've been there, seen things, wisened up. I come to you as a friend, on the same side of the tracks as you now, and I'm just offering my experience as a warning. Just be cautious... I think you underestimate how powerful C.S. Lewis' writings can be. Read one time, probably no ill effect. Poured over time and again, it can lead to the brainwashing. Please, trust me, I've been there and experienced it first hand.

Indeed. As I said, it's only 'dangerous' to people regularly associated with Christianity. Those that aren't regularly exposed to that particular cult will simply read it just as they'd read any other sci-fi / fantasy series.

Jeez dude. Are you American? I have lived in/around christian communities all my life and I have never seen anything in christianity that could possibly compare it to a cult. I live in a country where there is no separation between church and state (I'll pause to let the horror of the concept engulf you) and yet most people here regard christianity like tasteless old wallpaper in their great-aunts flat; Somewhat comforting and nostalgic, but thank heaven we don't live with it every day!

I do find the blind faith of some school-age christians mildly frustrating, but its like any teen cra-pha-ze. It slips away.

Isn't it funny how a fuss was only made when it became a film?
I guess it's because kids don't read much anymore? Hehehe...the series says that they are for children over nine. Most kids over nine are glued to their respective video-game sets, and wait until the movie come out. Just like their parents...:(

And if there is a Muslim God, Christians are screwed.

Yep.

If the battle between Aslan's forces and The Witch's army represents anything, I would think it represents the inner struggle of good and evil that exists in every human.

To an extent, sure. However, you have to take the entire book / series together. They build on each other, that's what makes it such a strong tool, while still being subtle.

And if there is a Muslim God, Christians are screwed.

The Christian God and the Muslim God is the same God. Just to let you know.;)

And if there is a Muslim God, Christians are screwed.

She's just as pissed.

You should be aware that was C.S. Lewis' goal when he wrote that series... to subtly influence youngsters into joining the Christian religion...

Yeah, and they complain about us subtly influencing their children...

And if there is a Muslim God, Christians are screwed.


Dude, far from it! Hell, if the Glorious Kuran is correct then come Armageddon half of christianity gets to fight on the side of Islam with Jesus as their captain! And hell, I'm pretty favourably inclined towards Islam already, so it won't be as if the decision is hard.

I'll miss bacon though. Mind you, I found a loophole on alcohol.

I complained about the film being a suck-fest.

Oh so you liked it?

Jeez dude. Are you American? I have lived in/around christian communities all my life and I have never seen anything in christianity that could possibly compare it to a cult. I live in a country where there is no separation between church and state (I'll pause to let the horror of the concept engulf you) and yet most people here regard christianity like tasteless old wallpaper in their great-aunts flat; Somewhat comforting and nostalgic, but thank heaven we don't live with it every day!

I do find the blind faith of some school-age christians mildly frustrating, but its like any teen cra-pha-ze. It slips away.

Christianity is indeed a cult. People being led around fairly blindly. I fail to see how anyone with any sense of reason can believe the crap the Christian church preaches... But that's neither here nor there. This discussion should be about Narnia.

And if there is a Muslim God, Christians are screwed.

True enough. Oddly, I'm not the least bit worried about that possibility.

Are you Christian, or were you raised Christian?

Would it change your response if I said I worshipped Thor, God of Thunder?

Why can't you bunch of tossers (wankers jerk off twats) get a fucking life and discuss something sensible like why is Bush junior such a ****

Some rather awful films are on that list.

Including some very, very good ones.

Anyway, I religiously prefer Potter.

Oh, that sort of reflects a bit worse on you than it does on Sjunde Inseglet. :p

Keep in mind that the Lion (it's been a while, I dont recall names) is representative of Christ. Resurrected from the dead, comes to their aid when they call upon him, etc...
The way I saw the series was that Narnia was like Jesus's personal World, He died for people's sins then went on vacation in Narnia. For more connections, in one story he appeared as a Lamb.

Also a little funny note if you look at a map of Narnia, it's a copy of the locations on the west coast of the Caspian sea.
The nation of Georgia and the like.


Oh and in the story there is another god, but it's worshiped by what seems to be the southern country in the game, who interestingly look like Arabs!

The Christian God and the Muslim God is the same God. Just to let you know.;)

Sort of, if you discount the theology of the Trinity, any way. ;)

Sputniks already beat me to what I was going to say...so my comment is just going to be the sword fight between the witch and the kid was crap :D

The Christian God and the Muslim God is the same God. Just to let you know.;)

Supposedly, yes. However, God probably prefers things to be one way or another. If Islam is true, I'm sure God wouldn't appreciate all the attention Jesus receives. And in the case of Christianity, Mohammed claiming he was a prophet probably wouldn't be kosher, either. So only one of those lines is correct.

Or, if you want to read it in real order:

1. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe ch. 1-16
2. Prince Caspian
3. Voyage of the Dawn Treader
4. The Silver Chair
5. The Magician’s Nephew
6. The Horse and His Boy
7. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe ch. 17
8. The Last Battle

Or rather, chronological order:
1. The Magician’s Nephew
2. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe up but not including, the last chapter
3. The Horse and His Boy
4. The last chapter of the "The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe"
5. Prince Caspian
6. Voyage of the Dawn Treader
7. The Silver Chair
8. The Last Battle

And as to your earlier assertion of seeing ‘sexual tension’ between Lucy and Tumnus, I suggest that the Ink Blot test reveals more about the viewer than it does about the Ink Blot. Perhaps you should talk to someone about those impressions of yours.

You hope, lol.

I've been there, seen things, wisened up. I come to you as a friend, on the same side of the tracks as you now, and I'm just offering my experience as a warning. Just be cautious... I think you underestimate how powerful C.S. Lewis' writings can be. Read one time, probably no ill effect. Poured over time and again, it can lead to the brainwashing. Please, trust me, I've been there and experienced it first hand.I'm sorry, but I'm not about to be alarmed by books. My parents let me read any novel I wanted to as a child. They never censored me. Some things I didn't understand until I was older, and sometimes I would get caught up in a story (who am I fooling, I still do). I've read these books many, many times. Most of the books I own I read once a year in rotation. Many of them have what could be alternately claimed as "Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Whateverish" themes, but that has never pushed me to accept that there is a higher being. Reading the bible, which is a poorly written, but interesting collection of fables, didn't do it either. That some people believe that these themes in the Chronicles of Narnia somehow have the power to convert children, is a very strange thing in my eyes. I think they are wonderful books for children, and I hope they read them many times.

What if I'm right, and there is no God. All you 'believers' will have wasted your life. At least, if you're true believers that is... It works both ways.

Oh so you liked it?

You're not actually supposed to suck on cocks when you perform fellatio, you know. It's more licking and shoving down your throat and rubbing against your buccal and oral mucosa.

get A Life

I do find the blind faith of some school-age christians mildly frustrating, but its like any teen cra-pha-ze. It slips away.
It's a lot like how kids of the same age get very political, and very rigid in their beliefs for a time. It DOES pass as long as they are challenged now and again to reconsider their beliefs.

The Christian God and the Muslim God is the same God. Just to let you know.;)

They have their differences. Trinity for example, is a property of the Christian God, but not the Muslim God.

What I mean by "if the Muslim God exists" is "if God exists, and fits the description given by Muslims, rather than anyone elses (e.g. Christians') descriptions".

I read the books as a child, and I've recently read them again. My kids and I watched the movie. There are a few references to Christianity, but I sure as heck didn't get them as a kid. Why? Because I've never been Christian. Even now, I had to really stretch things to find any sort of correlation...the death and resurrection of Aslan being the most obvious. However, in fantasy novels, this kind of thing isn't exactly new, and I don't go around calling all those books Christian, and getting up in arms about my kids being exposed to them...

So what the heck were people complaining about? It's a fantasy novel, written by a Christian. That doesn't make it a Christian novel. I don't get it. How could there have been any contraversy about this? If you aren't already a Christian, how could this possibly 'convert' you in any way?

It is based on the Christ story I belive.

CS was a major Bible thumper. Just look up his other works.

The stories are tame. I read them as a kid and didn't pick up on the theme untill the last book.

Including some very, very good ones.



Oh, that sort of reflects a bit worse on you than it does on Sjunde Inseglet. :p


*really hurt*
STOP that, or I'll put Trelawney on your case!

*now looks suspiciously like Gilderoy Lockhart*

Yeah, Tash and the Calormenes are not the most PC characters in the book. Although they allow CS Lewis to expound a more pluralistic view not found in many of the more fundamentalist christian denominations.

Christianity is indeed a cult. People being led around fairly blindly. I fail to see how anyone with any sense of reason can believe the crap the Christian church preaches... But that's neither here nor there. This discussion should be about Narnia.

OK then, I liked it, personally. I've never read the books, though, so I have no reference as to whether it was better or worse than the books.

I have read many of Lewis' other books. He's an entertaining author, to be sure.

Tilda Swinton is hot.

Sorry, what were we talking about?

We were talking about Tilda. she is damned hot, yes. In another life I'd marry her and open a restaurant.

I'm sorry, but I'm not about to be alarmed by books. My parents let me read any novel I wanted to as a child. They never censored me. Some things I didn't understand until I was older, and sometimes I would get caught up in a story (who am I fooling, I still do). I've read these books many, many times. Most of the books I own I read once a year in rotation. Many of them have what could be alternately claimed as "Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Whateverish" themes, but that has never pushed me to accept that there is a higher being. Reading the bible, which is a poorly written, but interesting collection of fables, didn't do it either. That some people believe that these themes in the Chronicles of Narnia somehow have the power to convert children, is a very strange thing in my eyes. I think they are wonderful books for children, and I hope they read them many times.

Not every person has the same capacity for reasoning and is as grounded as you...

get A Life

You might try following your own advice. ;) If you don't like this conversation or topic, why are you here?

Would it change your response if I said I worshipped Thor, God of Thunder?
No, I'm only wondering if you were raised to be familiar with the themes, and if that is why you recognise them much more easily than I.

But if you worship Thor, you should read the Dirk Gently books by Douglas Adams. Thor makes some appearance there;)

Or rather, chronological order:
1. The Magician’s Nephew
2. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe up but not including, the last chapter
3. The Horse and His Boy
4. The last chapter of the "The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe"
5. Prince Caspian
6. Voyage of the Dawn Treader
7. The Silver Chair
8. The Last Battle

It's better to read it in publication order. If you read The Magician's Nephew first, then you don't get the joy of discovery about Narnia, the advent of the wardrobe, and the beginnings later.

You walk into LW&W already knowing how it all got there.

Lewis was very smart in the order he published to keep the story line fresh and interesting. I don't know who made the decision to put them in chronological order, but it was a bad one.

It'd be like watching Star Wars ep I before seeing ep IV.

And this is different from the myriad of other characters that are miraculously brought back from the dead in so many other fantasy novels? What I'm getting at here is that non-Christians seem to think there is some subtle propaganda in this particular series. I am a non-Christian, and I have to STRETCH things to even see that. The symbolism is meaningless to me, and will be meaningless to my children. So where is the 'danger'? I don't see this series as any different than any other fantasy series that borrow themes from religion, history, and so forth.

actually it really does have a deep Christian theme, I am a Christian, and there isa lot there, I have called it a fantasy re-writing of the Bible (alhtough, of course that is a slight stretch) yes it is a Christian series, but why should that alone let it really really bother you, if you don't see enough to start a fight over, and your kids don't then I would say treat them as good iction, why let other people uin an otherwise good series?

Why can't you bunch of tossers (wankers jerk off twats) get a fucking life and discuss something sensible like why is Bush junior such a ****


WORST. POST. EVER.

Why can't you bunch of tossers (wankers jerk off twats) get a fucking life and discuss something sensible like why is Bush junior such a ****
Thats because...

Everyone with a brain knows it's because he's an idiotic puppet!!!

That's the thing...I really don't think Christianity has the market cornered on morals, nor do I think that being exposed to these things are going to suddenly cause my children to spontaneously erupt into Christianity.

I absolutely agree. Indeed, in an ideal world, one would hope that the morality would come first and that a religion would be selected (if it was selected) because it most greatly embodied those moral principles you regard as truly good. Morality (or spirituality) first, dogma and doctrine second.

If that was true in the real world, I think that modern christianity would be very small indeed.

Or rather, chronological order:
1. The Magician’s Nephew
2. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe up but not including, the last chapter
3. The Horse and His Boy
4. The last chapter of the "The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe"
5. Prince Caspian
6. Voyage of the Dawn Treader
7. The Silver Chair
8. The Last Battle


Not the order to read them in. Magician's Nephew only exists to provide background information on the links between our world and Narnia. Not the book to start with.

WORST. POST. EVER.
that really, [I]really[I] was

Not every person has the same capacity for reasoning and is as grounded as you...
I wasn't a genius child, and grounded is certainly not an adjective I'd use to describe me then, or now. There was no 'reasoning' involved...just the enjoyment of a good fantasy series.

Blah Blah Blah jesus blah blah blah mohammed

I absolutely agree. Indeed, in an ideal world, one would hope that the morality would come first and that a religion would be selected (if it was selected) because it most greatly embodied those moral principles you regard as truly good. Morality (or spirituality) first, dogma and doctrine second.

If that was true in the real world, I think that modern christianity would be very small indeed.
Unfortunately, the Christian parents of the world have taken it upon themselves to ensure their children follow as blindly as the parent and begin the indoctrination at a very young age - when most children have not yet developed the ability to reason...

No, I'm only wondering if you were raised to be familiar with the themes, and if that is why you recognise them much more easily than I.

But if you worship Thor, you should read the Dirk Gently books by Douglas Adams. Thor makes some appearance there;)

I wasn't raised as a Christian and I didn't read the Narnia books as a child so I can't comment on whether I would have picked up on the subtext or not.

I concede that it's perfectly possible that I would not have done. However, the fact that the intention on the part of the author was to construct some sort of Christian allegory does trouble me slightly.

I do like the fact that they're going in order of publication and not in the order the series of books currently sits.

Movie order:

1. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe
2. Prince Caspian
3. Voyage of the Dawn Treader
4. The Silver Chair
5. The Magician’s Nephew
6. The Horse and His Boy
7. The Last Battle

If you haven't read the books, read them in the above order.

Or, if you want to read it in real order:

1. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe ch. 1-16
2. Prince Caspian
3. Voyage of the Dawn Treader
4. The Silver Chair
5. The Magician’s Nephew
6. The Horse and His Boy
7. The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe ch. 17
8. The Last Battle
Uh, actually, the last chapter of The Lion, The Witch, & The Wardrobe DOES, in fact, come before Prince Caspian. Ch 17 of L,W,&W is when all four are in Narnia the first time and they go home. It isn't the last chapter of the first 6 books. It should, however, come after The Horse And His Boy, because that's the only other story that takes place in their first visit to Narnia.

And technically, you should read them in the following order, which is chronological to the storyline:

1. The Magician's Nephew (Creation of Narnia)
2. The Lion, The Witch, & The Wardrobe, Ch. 1 - 16 (Or 1 - 17, if you take into account that No. 3 takes place before Ch. 17) (Pevensies' first visit to Narnia, many thousands of years after No. 1, approximately 50 Earth years after No. 1)
3. The Horse and His Boy (A story that takes place between Ch. 16 and Ch. 17 of No. 2)
(3b. No. 2, Ch. 17)
4. Prince Caspian (At least 1000 Narnian years after No. 2, one Earth year after No. 2)
5. The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (3 Narnian years, 2 Earth years after No. 4)
6. The Silver Chair (Under 100 Narnian years, a few Earth months after No. 5)
7. The Last Battle (After all the other books, I forget exactly how much later this is, though.)

You're not actually supposed to suck on cocks when you perform fellatio, you know. It's more licking and shoving down your throat and rubbing against your buccal and oral mucosa.

:D I bow to your expert knowledge! Bastard! :D

I wasn't a genius child, and grounded is certainly not an adjective I'd use to describe me then, or now. There was no 'reasoning' involved...just the enjoyment of a good fantasy series.

LoL...I dont think you got what I was saying. It doesnt take a genius. Just someone that can reason for themselves - without prior indoctrination...

WORST. POST. EVER.

He's probably only twelve or something.

He's probably only twelve or something.
Leave it, he's been reported.

Uh, actually, the last chapter of The Lion, The Witch, & The Wardrobe DOES, in fact, come before Prince Caspian.

Actually, yes, you're right. Leave me alone ... it's early for me. :p

I would not, however, put The Magician's Nephew first. While chronologically it is first, it was not published first. For a damn good reason, too.

I concede that it's perfectly possible that I would not have done. However, the fact that the intention on the part of the author was to construct some sort of Christian allegory does trouble me slightly.
Would it trouble you if I wrote a series of fantasy novels based on Cree (native) spirituality?

He's probably only twelve or something.

That would be my guess, too, although it does bring up an interesting point about the ability of 12 years old to understand complex theological questions, which may explain why Lewis decided to portray these themes in the form of a children's novel.

Actually, yes, you're right. Leave me alone ... it's early for me. :p

I would not, however, put The Magician's Nephew first. While chronologically it is first, it was not published first. For a damn good reason, too.

LoL...would've made Lewis' strategy too blatently obvious from the get-go... Wouldn't be able to suck you into the story line first...

Would it trouble you if I wrote a series of fantasy novels based on Cree (native) spirituality?

It wouldn't bother me in the least. Go for it!

Would it trouble you if I wrote a series of fantasy novels based on Cree (native) spirituality?

Only if you refuse to send me an autographed first print.

Lewis was very smart in the order he published to keep the story line fresh and interesting. I don't know who made the decision to put them in chronological order, but it was a bad one.


It started about two seconds after The Last Battle was published and the ink was still wet.

However, I agree with you. Reading thim in the order they are listed by C.S. Lewis is best.

It wouldn't bother me in the least. Go for it!
Sorry, I wouldn't actually do that. But if that wasn't threatening..how about a series depicting Islamic allegory?

Leave it, he's been reported.

Consider it left. I was just making an observation, not trying to get involved. Anyway, I think you can see the influence of Christianity in a lot of media. Since stories, movies, etc. are fictional, I can put up with elements that I consider fictional that other people treat as fact.

LoL...would've made Lewis' strategy too blatently obvious from the get-go... Wouldn't be able to suck you into the story line first...

Exactly! We can't have children thinking for themselves, after all. ;)

Sorry, I wouldn't actually do that. But if that wasn't threatening..how about a series depicting Islamic allegory?

Be sure to include lots of pictures of Mohammad.

Sorry, I wouldn't actually do that. But if that wasn't threatening..how about a series depicting Islamic allegory?

Fine by me, but you'd probably end up having the same problems as Salmon Rushdie, when he did the same thing. ;)

Exactly! We can't have children thinking for themselves, after all. ;)

Smacks of cultism, does it not? Indoctrinate the children with a specific set of beliefs that guide their lives... It's the ultimate self-perpetuating cult. They do what they're told by whomever's behind the pulpit, who passes on what he's been told to pass on, etc...

Unfortunately, the Christian parents of the world have taken it upon themselves to ensure their children follow as blindly as the parent and begin the indoctrination at a very young age - when most children have not yet developed the ability to reason...

Damn right. Now I may (I suspect do) have a slightly different viewpoint to you on humanity's position in the cosmos, but I will agree that trying to force children into a doctrinal religion at an early age sucks balls (which in reference to a minor theme in this thread I will say is bloody painful). Doctrine and dogma is programming. If the parents had real faith then they wouldn't need a church to try and persuade their kids to believe.

It would happen anyway.

Smacks of cultism, does it not? Indoctrinate the children with a specific set of beliefs that guide their lives... It's the ultimate self-perpetuating cult. They do what they're told by whomever's behind the pulpit, who passes on what he's been told to pass on, etc...

Schools do the same thing, as do parents. The fact is that kids start out knowing absolutely nothing, and have to be taught everything. One's values are going to seep into that equation, whatever those values are.

Damn right. Now I may (I suspect do) have a slightly different viewpoint to you on humanity's position in the cosmos, but I will agree that trying to force children into a doctrinal religion at an early age sucks balls (which in reference to a minor theme in this thread I will say is bloody painful). Doctrine and dogma is programming. If the parents had real faith then they wouldn't need a church to try and persuade their kids to believe.

It would happen anyway.
Bingo.

Back in the day, when I was still active in the church I'd grown up in, I was discussing my personal beliefs with a number of elders and their wives. I was told that they'd pray for me because I didnt hold their exact beliefs. Ironically, I'm sure they completely believe in Intelligent Design - which is what I'd been explaining I believed. Of course, now I dont believe any of it...but that's a different, much longer story.

So essentially, children who are already being indoctrinated into Christianity are the only ones 'at risk' here? Good to have that settled.

Schools do the same thing, as do parents. The fact is that kids start out knowing absolutely nothing, and have to be taught everything. One's values are going to seep into that equation, whatever those values are.

Kids could be taught the concept of uncertainty, of course. Teach them that you can't just read a book that tells the definite truth, which cannot be questioned.

Schools do the same thing, as do parents. The fact is that kids start out knowing absolutely nothing, and have to be taught everything. One's values are going to seep into that equation, whatever those values are.

There's a difference between instilling values and indoctrinating religious beliefs. Just because I'm extremely agnostic does not mean I have no values or morals. In fact, you'd find that I hold higher values and morals than most religious extremists - but I hold those values and morals because I choose to. Not because I've been told to by my religious leader.

I was entertained by the movie. I didn't care if there were any religious themes or not - it was simply entertainment in my view. :cool:

Damn right. Now I may (I suspect do) have a slightly different viewpoint to you on humanity's position in the cosmos, but I will agree that trying to force children into a doctrinal religion at an early age sucks balls (which in reference to a minor theme in this thread I will say is bloody painful). Doctrine and dogma is programming. If the parents had real faith then they wouldn't need a church to try and persuade their kids to believe.

It would happen anyway.


Not all children fall for it though. I absolutely agree that it is wrong to indoctrine those who don't know better and are far too young to know better, but it doesn't always work esp. with parents who teach their kids to be inquisitive and question things, like both my parents did.

My personal experience of it is that my mum always took me to church, i joined a christian youth organisation (called Crusaders, i loved it when I learned who the Crusaders actually were) and was a good little christian boy. Since I hit 14 however, things have gone over to the dark side as it were. I no longer believe in a christian god (or any other for that matter).

So essentially, children who are already being indoctrinated into Christianity are the only ones 'at risk' here? Good to have that settled.

LoL... I'd still offer a word of caution. The symbolism can sneak up on them. However, Sin, I'm sure that you've been teaching your children to reason for themselves and as such, I doubt yours will be susceptible to the series.

Would it trouble you if I wrote a series of fantasy novels based on Cree (native) spirituality?


Only if it was your intended purpose to try and indoctrinate impressionable young minds towards a particular religious view, as opposed to just lifting a few concepts to help write a good story.

It is possible it would trouble me less, depending on how I would personally view Cree spirituality. I don't know anything about it.

Would it trouble you if I wrote a series of fantasy novels based on Cree (native) spirituality?

Hmm, I should make a fantasy series based on anarchism and socialism. It will have allegorical references to May Day, the Russian revolution, the Spanish anarchist movement, etc. Hmm, that's not a bad idea.

There's a difference between instilling values and indoctrinating religious beliefs. Just because I'm extremely agnostic does not mean I have no values or morals. In fact, you'd find that I hold higher values and morals than most religious extremists - but I hold those values and morals because I choose to. Not because I've been told to by my religious leader.

True, but if you are agnostic will you not transmit that belief (or lack of belief or whatever it is or isn't), to your children? How is that different from Christian parents teaching their children about religion>?

Kids could be taught the concept of uncertainty, of course. Teach them that you can't just read a book that tells the definite truth, which cannot be questioned.
Including math books? :p

Not all children fall for it though. I absolutely agree that it is wrong to indoctrine those who don't know better and are far too young to know better, but it doesn't always work.

My personal experience of it is that my mum always took me to church, i joined a christian youth organisation (called Crusaders, i loved it when I learned who the Crusaders actually were) and was a good little christian boy. Since I hit 14 however, things have gone over to the dark side as it were. I no longer believe in a christian god (or any other for that matter).

I lasted in the church till I was about 17 or 18, then started drifting away, finally breaking free somewhere around my 24th b-day.

For the longest time, I detested hearing that Christianity was just a crutch for the weak minded and cultish, etc. And then I grew up enough to see the way my parents act regarding the church. Every bit of it's true. My 100% German parents believe they're Mezzionic Jews. Dont ask me what that means, I dont know, and I refuse to attend their services.

Including math books? :p

Most emphatically mathbooks!
Where have you been during the 20th Century?

Hmm, I should make a fantasy series based on anarchism and socialism. It will have allegorical references to May Day, the Russian revolution, the Spanish anarchist movement, etc. Hmm, that's not a bad idea.
My favourite books were always the one where the monarchy/landlords/ruling elite were overthrown, land reform was enacted, and the people finally had control over their own lives.

So perhaps it IS true that what you read helps form your beliefs. Blame books for my politics and atheism then:)

Did you ever read the book 'Surrender None' by Elizabeth Moon? Do something like that, with more coherent politics!

True, but if you are agnostic, will you not transmit that belief to your children? How is that different from Christian parents teaching their children about religion>?

No, I will instill values and morals into them. That doesnt mean that I have to tell them what to believe or not believe - that's for them to decide.

I lasted in the church till I was about 17 or 18, then started drifting away, finally breaking free somewhere around my 24th b-day.

For the longest time, I detested hearing that Christianity was just a crutch for the weak minded and cultish, etc. And then I grew up enough to see the way my parents act regarding the church. Every bit of it's true. My 100% German parents believe they're Mezzionic Jews. Dont ask me what that means, I dont know, and I refuse to attend their services.

Are you certain you're not just being closed-minded? ;)

Well, I've got to go. Have fun. :)

No, I will instill values and morals into them. That doesnt mean that I have to tell them what to believe or not believe - that's for them to decide.
And if they really want to be Christian?

No, I will instill values and morals into them. That doesnt mean that I have to tell them what to believe or not believe - that's for them to decide.

Would it bother you if they became Christians, then?

And if they really want to be Christian?
Then that's their choice. Not for me to say is wrong or right. I will make sure that they know there are other religions out there, but my opinion on the matter is simply that - my opinion.

Not all children fall for it though. I absolutely agree that it is wrong to indoctrine those who don't know better and are far too young to know better, but it doesn't always work.

My personal experience of it is that my mum always took me to church, i joined a christian youth organisation (called Crusaders, i loved it when I learned who the Crusaders actually were) and was a good little christian boy. Since I hit 14 however, things have gone over to the dark side as it were. I no longer believe in a christian god (or any other for that matter).

Hell, dude, I faced the exact same thing. Parents brought me up religious, but not faithful. So when I started questioning religion I questioned everything spiritual.

Since then, things have changed (reversed ;) ), but I still respect those who reject traditional religion and it's insipid, diluted version of morality.

I don't know why the question of IF Narnia is overtly christian is even still an issue. C.S. Lewis said it was designed to be a christian allegory. Therefore, it is. On the other hand, J.R.R. Tolkein and J.K. Rowling both say theirs are influenced by their christian faith, but are NOT designed to be overtly christian books. Therefore, they are not. Most, if not all good fantasy literature has some mirroring of the christian story... but then again, so do most other religions and all sorts of other things. Doesn't make it christian... it just makes it appeal to a very wide base of human experience. C.S. Lewis was very into allegory, so his is specificly that... few others are. Why are we still talking about that?

Whether or not these books ought to be read/made into movies and viewed is another question entirely. I have no problem with any of them, but a lot of people do, apparently, on both sides of the issue. I'll let my daughter watch any of them... and just actually parent and talk about what she thinks of them when they're done. Otherwise, you end up with niave sheltered people who have no idea of the world and how to deal with it. These people make terrible adults.

(Probably that's why I'm somewhat misanthropic within the "christian" community, actually...)

Including math books? :p

Yes, including maths books. What if there was a typo, or mistake in the arithmetic? You can't expect the authors to be perfect.

Are you certain you're not just being closed-minded? ;)

Well, I've got to go. Have fun. :)

Trust me on this one. I grew up in the f'n church. I'm a bonafide MK. I know more than most people ever will about the Christian religion. I've seen it all firsthand.

And if they really want to be Christian?


*gniffles*

That's more or less the part where me mum tossed me out of the house some 40 years ago! Imagine the shame a good atheist mum has when she finds out her son das decided to get into a Nichiren-Buddhist reclusion!

(Probably that's why I'm somewhat misanthropic within the "christian" community, actually...)

Welcome to the club :D

LoL...would've made Lewis' strategy too blatently obvious from the get-go... Wouldn't be able to suck you into the story line first...
I still got sucked in, and I liked knowing where Narnia came from and how the Witch got there and all. I would have been confused up until the last minute if I hadn't read it in the current/chronological order.

Hmm, I should make a fantasy series based on anarchism and socialism. It will have allegorical references to May Day, the Russian revolution, the Spanish anarchist movement, etc. Hmm, that's not a bad idea.

My favourite books were always the one where the monarchy/landlords/ruling elite were overthrown, land reform was enacted, and the people finally had control over their own lives.


*cough*ANIMALFARM*cough*.

Worlds most piercingly accurate allegory.

That book called *cough**cough* of course. ;)

I read the books as a child, and I've recently read them again. My kids and I watched the movie. There are a few references to Christianity, but I sure as heck didn't get them as a kid. Why? Because I've never been Christian. Even now, I had to really stretch things to find any sort of correlation...the death and resurrection of Aslan being the most obvious. However, in fantasy novels, this kind of thing isn't exactly new, and I don't go around calling all those books Christian, and getting up in arms about my kids being exposed to them...

So what the heck were people complaining about? It's a fantasy novel, written by a Christian. That doesn't make it a Christian novel. I don't get it. How could there have been any contraversy about this? If you aren't already a Christian, how could this possibly 'convert' you in any way?

Yes, the christian imagery is obvious.

You are not a christian so you missed it.

It's not really for you. Just enjoy it as a fantasy story.

Hell, dude, I faced the exact same thing. Parents brought me up religious, but not faithful. So when I started questioning religion I questioned everything spiritual.

Since then, things have changed (reversed ;) ), but I still respect those who reject traditional religion and it's insipid, diluted version of morality.

Best thing about mine was my dad, he wasn't christian at all really and never came to church.

This gave me two different beliefs in one family which helped a lot.

If my gf and I ever get married though its going to be amusing. She's a non-practicing catholic, but she still has a lot of traditions that come from that side of christianity, so she wants to get married in a big catholic church, full mass - the works.

Me? I can't stand the catholic church and refuse to have anything to do with the organisation itself, so balls to that idea...

The Chronicles of Narnia are filled with deep religious themes. CS Lewis was one of the greatest christian writer/philosophers in history. The Narnia books were designed to slip the most essential christian messages past the censors of a secular mind and impart lessons without obvious religious elements to inspire rejection.

Which is, now I think about it, a really wicked idea. A pity the films fail to measure up.

I don't see C.S. Lewis as that insidious. These teachings may have influenced him, but i doubt the idea was to convince people of the validity of Christianity through fantasy novel.

I lasted in the church till I was about 17 or 18, then started drifting away, finally breaking free somewhere around my 24th b-day.

For the longest time, I detested hearing that Christianity was just a crutch for the weak minded and cultish, etc. And then I grew up enough to see the way my parents act regarding the church. Every bit of it's true. My 100% German parents believe they're Mezzionic Jews. Dont ask me what that means, I dont know, and I refuse to attend their services.


My point came where I really started rebelling after I stopped going to church, as being one of the only boys in the village who actually used to go to church I was piled with letters from all the various denominations asking me to come to their confirmation services when I was 16 (i think). apparently only 2 boys in the whole village (13-15k pop.) were confirmed lol.

I read the books as a child, and I've recently read them again. My kids and I watched the movie. There are a few references to Christianity, but I sure as heck didn't get them as a kid. Why? Because I've never been Christian. Even now, I had to really stretch things to find any sort of correlation...the death and resurrection of Aslan being the most obvious. However, in fantasy novels, this kind of thing isn't exactly new, and I don't go around calling all those books Christian, and getting up in arms about my kids being exposed to them...

So what the heck were people complaining about? It's a fantasy novel, written by a Christian. That doesn't make it a Christian novel. I don't get it. How could there have been any contraversy about this? If you aren't already a Christian, how could this possibly 'convert' you in any way?

See, there's a part of me that hates these books and movies because they're Christian propoganda. But that's only a very small part. The rest of me hates them because they're just bad.

My point came where I really started rebelling after I stopped going to church, as being one of the only boys in the village who actually used to go to church I was piled with letters from all the various denominations asking me to come to their confirmation services when I was 16 (i think). apparently only 2 boys in the whole village (13-15k pop.) were confirmed lol.

Yah, you think that's bad. Try being a jew and going to the C of E until you are 16-17.

It really makes for atheism. Still, I'm glad my fathers people killed jesus.

Yes, the christian imagery is obvious.

You are not a christian so you missed it.

It's not really for you. Just enjoy it as a fantasy story.
Thanks, I will:)

It really makes for atheism. Still, I'm glad my fathers people killed jesus.
Your father was Roman?

You're not actually supposed to suck on cocks when you perform fellatio, you know. It's more licking and shoving down your throat and rubbing against your buccal and oral mucosa.

I just coughed up a lot of twiglets :S

Yah, you think that's bad. Try being a jew and going to the C of E until you are 16-17.

It really makes for atheism. Still, I'm glad my fathers people killed jesus.


Ouch, I can see why. Although I help teach at a C of E primary school and they are 60% muslim kids. Most of whom know more about christianity then the white kids do. Oh the amusement.

Yah, you think that's bad. Try being a jew and going to the C of E until you are 16-17.

It really makes for atheism. Still, I'm glad my fathers people killed jesus.


eh?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10855925&postcount=40

Your father was Roman?

Yes, he was a Legate in the XIV Legio.

Sad really. On the plus side he invented smallpox.

eh?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10855925&postcount=40


Grew a new one eh?

eh?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10855925&postcount=40

reform judaism,

it's the new black.

reform judaism,

it's the new black.

respect

I don't see C.S. Lewis as that insidious. These teachings may have influenced him, but i doubt the idea was to convince people of the validity of Christianity through fantasy novel.


Eesh, dude, it isn't about insidious or validity. Its about trying to live a 'good' life. CS Lewis saw that kids weren't ever going to understand the theological arguments for a life of christian morality; The idea was that the whole honour, duty, honesty and trust thing would be passed on through a fictional exemplar. Kids would be good 'cos that's what good people do, even when its tough.

respect

I can sign you up if you want.

We have holidays and everything. Just like a real religion.

There is tons of religiousness in narnia, in the magicians nephew aslan (the lion) creates narnia in much the same way discribed in the bible in that it is created from nothing. In the same book a boy and a girl go to a garden where they are tempted to eat an apple by someone evil. in the lion the witch and the wardrobe
the witch is like evil and when she is deaftead by aslan (christ) it is like jesus "saving us" according to the bible. But you are right it couldn't convert someone.

There is tons of religiousness in narnia, in the magicians nephew aslan (the lion) creates narnia in much the same way discribed in the bible in that it is created from nothing. In the same book a boy and a girl go to a garden where they are tempted to eat an apple by someone evil. in the lion the witch and the wardrobe
the witch is like evil and when she is deaftead by aslan (christ) it is like jesus "saving us" according to the bible. But you are right it couldn't convert someone.

It couldn't???? Says who? I know a guy who was converted merely by a baby's ear. And I've heard of people being converted by these books... but more commonly getting from these books into other works of Lewis, and being converted there.

A baby's ear? I really don't want to know the context of that bizarre claim.

A baby's ear? I really don't want to know the context of that bizarre claim.

It leapt across the room, burrowed into the back of his neck and inserted fibrous tendrils into the folds of his brain.

Babies scare me.

now tbh there is nothing in these books that will even slightly convert a person

however the books are all based very closely on christian mythology, not that tbh i have ever noticed it

I read the books as a child, and I've recently read them again. My kids and I watched the movie. There are a few references to Christianity, but I sure as heck didn't get them as a kid. Why? Because I've never been Christian. Even now, I had to really stretch things to find any sort of correlation...the death and resurrection of Aslan being the most obvious. However, in fantasy novels, this kind of thing isn't exactly new, and I don't go around calling all those books Christian, and getting up in arms about my kids being exposed to them...

So what the heck were people complaining about? It's a fantasy novel, written by a Christian. That doesn't make it a Christian novel. I don't get it. How could there have been any contraversy about this? If you aren't already a Christian, how could this possibly 'convert' you in any way?


I was shocked when I was told they were stories that related to Christianity too (and I did grow up being taught Christianity *thanks Allah that I never came close to falling for such far out dogma*) and didn't see the references until I was told and looked for them in the movie. Looking back I do remember the "son of Adam and daughter of Eve" line from the book though.

Mythology is an attempt to explain that which is beyond our 5 senses. The question is, then, which is the true mythology. Tolkien and Lewis both adamantly believed that Christianity is the true myth.

How many ways do the Chronicles of Narnia shadow Christianity?
Let's look at the Lion, the With and the Wardrobe.

Death, resurrection and and glorious appearing of Aslan = death, ressurection, and glorious appearing of Jesus

Death to save a traitor who deserves death = death to save sinners (traitors against God) from spiritual death

Aslan comes at the same time as Father Christmas = Jesus birth is celebrated at the same time many homes have Santa bringing gifts

The gifts from Father Christmas are tools not toys = gifts of the Spirit are to be used for God's glory, not enjoyment

The Pevensies enter a new world = the Christian will enter a new world (figuratively)

Three options for Lucy's story (lying, mad, truth) = Three options for Jesus' claims (lying, mad, truth)

Turkish delight (a rich treat) makes Edmund sick = sin is often rich at first, but bitter later

White Witch tempts Edmund with power = Serpent tempted Eve with power

White Witch tempts Edmund, but his prideful nature is his fall = Satan tempts Man, but Man falls by his own doing


There are so many more. Anyone's thoughts affect their work and Lewis had Christian thoughts and even if he hadn't written them to promote Christian thought, they still influenced his work.

I read the books as a child, and I've recently read them again. My kids and I watched the movie. There are a few references to Christianity, but I sure as heck didn't get them as a kid. Why? Because I've never been Christian. Even now, I had to really stretch things to find any sort of correlation...the death and resurrection of Aslan being the most obvious. However, in fantasy novels, this kind of thing isn't exactly new, and I don't go around calling all those books Christian, and getting up in arms about my kids being exposed to them...

So what the heck were people complaining about? It's a fantasy novel, written by a Christian. That doesn't make it a Christian novel. I don't get it. How could there have been any contraversy about this? If you aren't already a Christian, how could this possibly 'convert' you in any way?
I dislike Narnia for many reasons that have nothing to do with Aslan being a cheap and obvious Jesus knock off.

The main reason is the assholish premise: a whole world of amazing sentient animals and people have got their own thing going on, their own cultures, and their own systems of life. Then some rich white kids wander in, make friends with a magical lion, and *POOF* they are set up as rulers for life. One tyrant is immediately traded for 4 pint-size tyrants. Joy.

Plus, the way Susan gets treated later in the series is fucking disturbing. "Oh, sorry darling, you started wearing make up and liking boys, so you get to be kicked out of paradise. Get lost."

Plus, the way Susan gets treated later in the series is f****** disturbing. "Oh, sorry darling, you started wearing make up and liking boys, so you get to be kicked out of paradise. Get lost."

Susan was no longer a friend of Narnia, not because she liked make-up or boys, but because she rejected the memories as little games. She rejected the world and Aslan; therefore, she was rejected. Another parallel to Christianity.

I think CS Lewis had too many mushrooms.

I dislike Narnia for many reasons that have nothing to do with Aslan being a cheap and obvious Jesus knock off.

The main reason is the assholish premise: a whole world of amazing sentient animals and people have got their own thing going on, their own cultures, and their own systems of life. Then some rich white kids wander in, make friends with a magical lion, and *POOF* they are set up as rulers for life. One tyrant is immediately traded for 4 pint-size tyrants. Joy.

Plus, the way Susan gets treated later in the series is fucking disturbing. "Oh, sorry darling, you started wearing make up and liking boys, so you get to be kicked out of paradise. Get lost."
Oooookay....