NationStates Jolt Archive

Another sad day in human history. We all know tensions are high regarding Mexican Imperialism in the United States lately, with large scale protests planned for May 1st and other days. However two Texas teens cast a sad shadow on humanity with this horrible act of racism:
Link (http://www.nbc5i.com/news/9047577/detail.html) :(

I'm sorry if i sound ignorant, but what happened?

I'm sorry if i sound ignorant, but what happened?
Read the article. Sounds like they found a new use for a metal pipe.

I'm sorry if i sound ignorant, but what happened?
Read the article. 16-year-old Hispanic allegedly--according to the assholes who beat him--tried to kiss a 12-year-old white girl at a party(I doubt that) so they took him out back and beat him with a metal pipe as well as raping him. Then they covered him in bleach to destroy DNA evidence and left him for dead. He's in the hospital, still in critical condition. Kid was lucky he was found only one day after the attack.

Those little runts should be gobsmacked. I can't stand racists. Especially Texan racists.

They poured bleach over him to destry DNA evidence? WTF?

These people should be shot.

They should be executed.

while I don't believe in the whole "hate crime" law thingy they got going...

that story is messed up, I hope that if those boys are guilty, that they are sent away for a long while.

while I don't believe in the whole "hate crime" law thingy they got going...
It does seem odd that they could be executed...but only if it's a hate crime.

Another sad day in human history. We all know tensions are high regarding Mexican Imperialism in the United States lately, with large scale protests planned for May 1st and other days. However two Texas teens cast a sad shadow on humanity with this horrible act of racism:
Link (http://www.nbc5i.com/news/9047577/detail.html) :(
*keeps walking*

It does seem odd that they could be executed...but only if it's a hate crime.

So if they violated him with a pipe, covered him in bleach and left him for dead - but didn't hate him, it's not so bad?

It does seem odd that they could be executed...but only if it's a hate crime.
yeah, it really does. I would say that it's kinda unfair to white people who are brutally murdered (you know except for the women or the homosexuals, since those could be hate crimes) the way I see it, if you are going to be a violent asshat and kill someone, it shouldn't matter who you killed, the penalty should be the same.

but, I won't say that, since it would be unpopular, and you know probably get me flamed or worse. ;)

So if they violated him with a pipe, covered him in bleach and left him for dead - but didn't hate him, it's not so bad?
No, see, in the United States, when one commits a crime against a minority, it is considered a hate crime, as it looked upon as racism. I don't always agree with this, but in most cases that assumption is right.

They should be executed.
It is Texas. I guess they should escape and head for the Mexican border ...

So if they violated him with a pipe, covered him in bleach and left him for dead - but didn't hate him, it's not so bad?
Ok, well maybe this isn't the time for a hate crime debate, and I honestly don't know the legal intricacies of them, but my gut feeling is that hate crime laws can give that impression.

Another sad day in human history. We all know tensions are high regarding Mexican Imperialism in the United States lately, with large scale protests planned for May 1st and other days. However two Texas teens cast a sad shadow on humanity with this horrible act of racism:
Link (http://www.nbc5i.com/news/9047577/detail.html) :(

I'm not touching this one with a ten foot metal pipe.

I'm not touching this one with a ten foot metal pipe.
...that wasn't funny. Rather crude, actually.

yeah, it really does. I would say that it's kinda unfair to white people who are brutally murdered (you know except for the women or the homosexuals, since those could be hate crimes) the way I see it, if you are going to be a violent asshat and kill someone, it shouldn't matter who you killed, the penalty should be the same.

but, I won't say that, since it would be unpopular, and you know probably get me flamed or worse. ;)
No, I agree with you entirely. I see motive as something to be taken into consideration by the investigators, and that there's no reason for it not be discussed in court, but it shouldn't facilitate the creation of different laws for different people.

If he was trying to molest a 12 year old girl he got what he had coming...perverts like that are the worst kind of scum, but if he didn't then those two kids need to be beat on the kidneys with large saps untill they piss blood

So if they violated him with a pipe, covered him in bleach and left him for dead - but didn't hate him, it's not so bad?
Well of course. They did all that out of love.

Give them death!:)

If he was trying to molest a 12 year old girl he got what he had coming...perverts like that are the worst kind of scum, but if he didn't then those two kids need to be beat on the kidneys with large saps untill they piss blood
Odds are he either didn't touch her, or it was consenual and he simply did not realize her age. Either way, the result was the same.

Both should be sodomized with a splintering 2x4 with rusty nails.

Maybe they'll learn after having to have splinters removed from their large intestine and rectum.

Fucking racist jerkwads...

There was no doubt about this being a hate crime. If it was out of protection for the girl, a fist to the face speaks volumes. Not an extremely painful and disgusting manner, whilst getting racist comments shouted in ones face.

So if they violated him with a pipe, covered him in bleach and left him for dead - but didn't hate him, it's not so bad?


This is why 'hate crime' laws draw unnecessary distinctions between crimes that are attrocious regardless of context. The intent is to cause harm, regardless of "motive", and harm is done: the crimes are really the same, you're still willfully harming another human being. Period. I don't know why that alone isn't enough reason for strong punishments.

Imho it seems to me like charging someone with a hate crime as opposed to a regular offense and punishing them more strictly in some ways contradicts and confuses the issue of justice as the law and precedence have set it up... I mean... First, as far as 'fair trial' goes, right off the bat you're characterizing someone as either horribly ignorant or deranged by charging them with a hate crime, which to me seems like it would dispose people towards conviction rather than acquittal. Second, you say 'well, you were grossly ignorant (or insane), and therefore we're going to punish you more strongly than someone who knew what he/she was doing'. Given that we tend to say that being uninformed or misinformed makes people less culpable, rather than more culpable (even though they're nonetheless guilty and in the cases of death or greivous harm are generally still punished), punishing them more strongly doesn't seem to be consistent with 'legal insanity' defences which let people off the hook for the very same thing. Are we going to be calling schitzos the perpetrators of hate crimes? I don't think people can help the way they've been educated any more than they can help having a mental derangement. They can be treated, but really... I'm not sure I really 'get' what they're trying to do with hate crime law.

If he was trying to molest a 12 year old girl he got what he had coming...perverts like that are the worst kind of scum, but if he didn't then those two kids need to be beat on the kidneys with large saps untill they piss blood

Perverts don't deserve death. This is exactly the kind of attitude America is being destroyed by.

Even if the boy does not die (and I pray to God he doesn't) I say a attempted murder charge needs to be added to aggrivated assult on this one. They fucking poured bleach on him and left him to be found. These people arn't fit to live in society. I say, life in prision or death.

There are some things you just don't do. You cross certain lines, you are no longer fit or deserving to live in normal society.

I'd really, really like to be able to meet people like this, show them what happens when someone fights back. Bash their fucking skulls in, I would.

Cowards and sadists in the worst degree.

1. All crimes are hate crimes.
2. These two should meet bubba

1. All crimes are hate crimes.
2. These two should meet bubba
Agreed....

But when I saw the topic I thought it was another thread about weird gay guys and their pet Horses... ;)

They fucking poured bleach on him and left him to be found.
Let this be a Teachable Moment.

Bleach = No Good

Use Papaya Juice or Meat Tenderizer. :eek: :p

Hate crime laws were created at a time when such crimes of racism were out of control, a real national emergency. They were created to help fight the KKK and other such groups.

Someone earlyer said that when a minority is killed by a white person in the US, it's a hate crime. This is not true. To get the hate crime label added on, there has to be proof, or at least eveidence that the crime was racially motivated. Any race can be the victim of hate crimes, and anyone of any race can be charged with a hate crime.

Catchy thread title, by the by.

Hate crime laws were created at a time when such crimes of racism were out of control, a real national emergency. They were created to help fight the KKK and other such groups.

Someone earlyer said that when a minority is killed by a white person in the US, it's a hate crime. This is not true. To get the hate crime label added on, there has to be proof, or at least eveidence that the crime was racially motivated. Any race can be the victim of hate crimes, and anyone of any race can be charged with a hate crime.

Catchy thread title, by the by.
See, I knew I didn't have the full explanation. My bad.

Perverts don't deserve death. This is exactly the kind of attitude America is being destroyed by.
I'm sorry but people that derive some sick pleasure from sexaully assaulting a child then they need to be removed from the human race...and I don't mean jail. I don't want my tax dollars going to make some pedophile happy in jail, while the victim is scarred for life. People like that should be shot in the street...or at least castrated with a rusty knife, by a drunk Rabbi

"Hate Crime Laws: A Savage Hypocrisy"
- credit goes to: Stan, Kyle (and Kenny?) from South Park.


Please refer to "Cartmans Silly Hate Crime," episode 401. Thank you.

"Hate Crime Laws: A Savage Hypocrisy"
- credit goes to: Stan, Kyle (and Kenny?) from South Park.


Please refer to "Cartmans Silly Hate Crime," episode 401. Thank you.
Ill check it out.

I'm sorry but people that derive some sick pleasure from sexaully assaulting a child then they need to be removed from the human race...and I don't mean jail. I don't want my tax dollars going to make some pedophile happy in jail, while the victim is scarred for life. People like that should be shot in the street...or at least castrated with a rusty knife, by a drunk Rabbi

a) Aparently, it costs more to put someone to death than to throw them in jail for life. Legal costs, aparently.
b) You should move to Saudi Arabia. That's what they do there.

a) Aparently, it costs more to put someone to death than to throw them in jail for life. Legal costs, aparently.
b) You should move to Saudi Arabia. That's what they do there.
Ain't mandatory appeals grand?

yeah, it really does. I would say that it's kinda unfair to white people who are brutally murdered (you know except for the women or the homosexuals, since those could be hate crimes) the way I see it, if you are going to be a violent asshat and kill someone, it shouldn't matter who you killed, the penalty should be the same.

Agreed. A crime is a crime, and the appropriate penalty should be the same regardless of race. A rule for one should be a rule for all.

All the same, this sounds like these two should be dealt with severely. That was rather savage, indeed, and the attempted cover-up after the fact indicates that it was thought out in advance. I'm not even sure they could be called human anymore after doing something like that to another fellow human being.

What is this world coming to?

Ain't mandatory appeals grand?
Better than executing innocent people.

Better than executing innocent people.
Mandatory...meaning the state requires them.

Now if they OFFERED you 4 or 5 appeals, they'll pay for them, but you don't have to take them. Think of the coin saved!

a) Aparently, it costs more to put someone to death than to throw them in jail for life. Legal costs, aparently.
b) You should move to Saudi Arabia. That's what they do there.
a. A bullet to the head would cost at most like 50 cents and thats for a .45, a .22 would get the job done just as well.
b. Not going to be moving there because I absolutely despise Islam (and most other organized religions)

While not all crimes against minorities are hate crimes, this one was.

Unfortunately, one of them is under 18, so we can't execute them both.

a. A bullet to the head would cost at most like 50 cents and thats for a .45, a .22 would get the job done just as well.
b. Not going to be moving there because I absolutely despise Islam (and most other organized religions)

a) LEGAL costs. Did you hear what I just said?
b) I smell bigotry at large.

did that just prove my point or what?

a) LEGAL costs. Did you hear what I just said?
b) I smell bigotry at large.

did that just prove my point or what?
That why execution should happen immediately behind the courthouse...hell I wish we could go back to public hangings that would send a good preventative messege. And no I am not a bigot...I just despise organized religion

This is why 'hate crime' laws draw unnecessary distinctions between crimes that are attrocious regardless of context. The intent is to cause harm, regardless of "motive", and harm is done: the crimes are really the same, you're still willfully harming another human being. Period. I don't know why that alone isn't enough reason for strong punishments.

Imho it seems to me like charging someone with a hate crime as opposed to a regular offense and punishing them more strictly in some ways contradicts and confuses the issue of justice as the law and precedence have set it up... I mean... First, as far as 'fair trial' goes, right off the bat you're characterizing someone as either horribly ignorant or deranged by charging them with a hate crime, which to me seems like it would dispose people towards conviction rather than acquittal. Second, you say 'well, you were grossly ignorant (or insane), and therefore we're going to punish you more strongly than someone who knew what he/she was doing'. Given that we tend to say that being uninformed or misinformed makes people less culpable, rather than more culpable (even though they're nonetheless guilty and in the cases of death or greivous harm are generally still punished), punishing them more strongly doesn't seem to be consistent with 'legal insanity' defences which let people off the hook for the very same thing. Are we going to be calling schitzos the perpetrators of hate crimes? I don't think people can help the way they've been educated any more than they can help having a mental derangement. They can be treated, but really... I'm not sure I really 'get' what they're trying to do with hate crime law.
The only problem with that is that you cannot say that a person who commits a hate crime is ignorant. Stupid and dumb by society's standard in that situation, but not ignorant all around. They do these crimes based not off a personal vendetta, but simply because of the color of their skin or their heritage. Because of that, I think hate crimes should be judged to a higher severity due to the fact that the cause is even less justifiable.

I also think that minorities should be charged with hate crimes as they are just as capable of doing such. Some members are perhaps more racist than the people whom they think hate them.

By the way the title is a misnomer. The Hispanic teen did not die. But it does seem to be a partcularly apt punishment for the crime, does it not?

That why execution should happen immediately behind the courthouse...hell I wish we could go back to public hangings that would send a good preventative messege. And no I am not a bigot...I just despise organized religion
Hating everyone equally is still hating. Despising every (or, excuse me, most) religions equally is still bigotry. As for executions behind the courthouse:

Every now and again (and by that, I mean 'all the time') we convict and sentance to death people who are innocent. Often, these people are acquitted in appeals, and thus go on living. It seems to me that the slight loss in tax dollars is infinately preferrable to executing innocent people. As for the public hangings. Allow me, for a moment, to describe to you what happens when you hang. If you do not wish to read it, don't. It's pretty graphic.

One of two things. If the drop is long enough, and forceful enough, your neck snaps immediately. This causes instant death. The feet twitch a bit. If the person is tied prior to hanging, the whole body does a little floppy thing.

Most often, though, the neck does not snap. Then, you're hanging there while this rope slowly strangles you. It's not much fun. Strangulation is immensely painful in its own right, having it done by a hemp rope moreso. Survivors of hangings (sometimes they'd come along with a pardon, and cut you down) used to describe it like their neck, from jaw to collarbone, felt as though it was on fire. Understandably, it's pretty scary. Not uncommon for the perpetrator to urinate on himself and members of the inevitable 'audience', as well as lose control of his bowels.
If the rope isn't tight around the neck, you can hang for a very long time. In the 1760s, one criminal hung for six hours. He did not pass out until the very end.

Still interested in public hangings? Then you're a sadist. Maybe we should hang you for 'being a perv'?

*snip* We all know tensions are high regarding Mexican Imperialism in the United States lately, *snip
The US is upset about imperialism? Bwahahahahahahaaahaaa ha ha hee heee heha ahahahhh ahh ahaah ahhh...
now thats rich

If he was trying to molest a 12 year old girl he got what he had coming...perverts like that are the worst kind of scum, but if he didn't then those two kids need to be beat on the kidneys with large saps untill they piss blood

The rednecks probably lied about the girl to begin with.

Besides, 16 vs. 12 isn't a horrid age difference. If she felt uncomfortable by it, told him and he left then that wasn't "molesting" it was getting shot down by a girl who's a little too young.

But, beating and raping someone? That's over the line. Always.
Unless it's a Nazi, they're sub-human.

They shouled be set upon by Mexican Fighting Dogs.

I agree, and I don't think public hangings are the answer to crime prevention...its just a great thing to say stir up discussion. And as for the bigotry I despise the institution of organized religion not the people. Most of the time its not their fault they've been roped into some crazy ass religion that wants them to do crazy shit

Im not sure who wrote this, but I absolutely crave how the media has turned caucasions into the minority. The person who wrote the article is over sensationalizing the article and is clearly ment for Mexicans to read rather than americans. I will point some things out. Now, I completely agree, these boys who did this were 100% wrong, but this is more pointing out the media's flaws.

If you look up Spring Texas on the map, you would find it just north of Houston Texas. That is 100's of miles away from mexico, and it is likely that they chose to make this headline posted all over the internet is not due to the fact that it happened (these brutalities happen daily), but because of the persons race, and the current affairs with the boarders. Had this happened a year ago, I doubt people would take a second look.

SPRING, Texas -- Two white (Race shouldn't matter) teenagers severely beat and sodomized a 16-year-old Hispanic boy who they believed had tried to kiss a 12-year-old white girl at a party, authorities said.

(now, Beating a 16 year old for kissing a 12 year old (Definately not legal). I would do the same thing, just because that is very wrong. However, going so far as to sodomize the guy is wrong.

The attackers forced the boy out of the house party, beat him and sodomized him with a metal pipe, shouting epithets "associated with being Hispanic," said Lt. John Martin with the Harris County Sheriff's Department.

They then poured bleach over the boy, apparently to destroy DNA evidence, and left him for dead, authorities said. He wasn't discovered until Sunday, a day after the attack.

(they couldnt find the boy in a suburban neighborhood for over a day? I doubt the boys pored bleach on the boy to destroy evidence, but in an idiotic attempt to whiten his skin.

The victim, who was not identified, suffered severe internal injuries and remained in critical condition Thursday.


Keith Robert Turner, 17, and David Henry Tuck, 18, are charged with aggravated sexual assault, investigators said. Prosecutors are considering whether to attach hate-crime charges, but unless the victim dies, the possible penalty would be the same. If the boy dies and it is ruled a hate crime, the attackers could face the death penalty, authorities said.

The case has been turned over to the homicide division, Martin said, normal procedure in severe assault cases.

Authorities set bond at $100,000 for Turner and at $20,000 for Tuck.

Spring is a middle-class, largely white suburb of 36,000 residents, located about 10 miles north of the Houston city limits.

(the fact that they noted the type of neighborhood is rather suprising. it just goes along with my theory that suburbs are more dangerous than on the streets) I noticed how they never mentioned if the boy was American (legally). They didn't, but did stress several times that he was hispanic. I do agree that this is obviously a hate crime, and completely unexcusable. What I disagree with is how the article was written. In my opinion, it is obviously sensationalism becuse of the growing tensions with the US/Mexico boarder. (on a side note, I hope those boys are locked away for life). Any thoughts?

12 year old (Definately not legal). I would do the same thing, just because that is very wrong. However, going so far as to sodomize the guy is wrong.

Twelve year old girls sometimes date 16 year old boys and most people don't think too unusually about it...

It's not the norm, but it falls within the bell.

Twelve year old girls sometimes date 16 year old boys and most people don't think too unusually about it...

It's not the norm, but it falls within the bell.
I actually think it is sick and he should have gotten a beating.
Arse rape though?
No, not at all.

Then why is 18 to 14 illegal? It's still a four year difference.

How in the hell could a 16 year old guy dating a 12 year old (probably pre-pubescent) girl be considered normal? Thats terrible....i mean I know thats stuff happens in the Ozark mountains but come on

By the way the title ["Sodomized to Death"] is a misnomer. The Hispanic teen did not die. But it does seem to be a partcularly apt punishment for the crime, does it not?

It's a misnomer, but damn, I'd pay money to be able to come up with catchy titles like that. Is there a course I can take?

It does seem odd that they could be executed...but only if it's a hate crime.

That ambiguous statement in the article isn't wholly accurate.

If convicted of murder, the defendants could be executed if there were also present any number of special circumstances. I am not familiar with the specific Texas law that would make a hate crime such a special circumstance, but it seems unsurprising.

How in the hell could a 16 year old guy dating a 12 year old (probably pre-pubescent) girl be considered normal? Thats terrible....i mean I know thats stuff happens in the Ozark mountains but come on

Puberty comes early for girls. There was a grade 7 girl in my school who got pregnant. But this is a long time ago.

The world record for the youngest mother was 5.

Well back in Greece and Rome it was perfectly normal for an older person to have a kid as their plaything.
Christianity put a stop to that, but Christians aren't the in thing so perhaps we should go back to doing that?

yeah, it really does. I would say that it's kinda unfair to white people who are brutally murdered (you know except for the women or the homosexuals, since those could be hate crimes) the way I see it, if you are going to be a violent asshat and kill someone, it shouldn't matter who you killed, the penalty should be the same.

but, I won't say that, since it would be unpopular, and you know probably get me flamed or worse. ;)

*sigh*

White straight Christian males can be victims of hate crimes. I'll simply repeat what I posted in the other thread:

As I'll explain more below, hate crime legislation -- other than establishing data collection and research -- merely provide for additional punishment for crimes based on intent. For example, one commits a federal hate crime when one (a) commits a federal crime -- something that is already illegal like murder -- and (b) "the defendant intentionally selected any victim or any property as the object of the offense of conviction because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person."

This law applies equally whether the victim is white or black. It applies the same whether the perpetrator is white or black.

Such laws are an attempt to help strive towards equality and are well justified:

All Americans have a stake in an effective response to violent bigotry. Hate crimes demand a priority response because of their special emotional and psychological impact on the victim and the victim's community. The damage done by hate crimes cannot be measured solely in terms of physical injury or dollars and cents. Hate crimes may effectively intimidate other members of the victim's community, leaving them feeling isolated, vulnerable and unprotected by the law. By making members of minority communities fearful, angry and suspicious of other groups -- and of the power structure that is supposed to protect them -- these incidents can damage the fabric of our society and fragment communities.

In the case of federal law, Section 280003 of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 merely provided for a sentence enhancement based on a hate crime intent.

That is codified in the Federal Sentencing Guidelines as follows:

§3A1.1. Hate Crime Motivation or Vulnerable Victim

(a) If the finder of fact at trial or, in the case of a plea of guilty or nolo contendere, the court at sentencing determines beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant intentionally selected any victim or any property as the object of the offense of conviction because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person, increase by 3 levels.

(b)(1) If the defendant knew or should have known that a victim of the offense was a vulnerable victim, increase by 2 levels.

(2) If (A) subdivision (1) applies; and (B) the offense involved a large number of vulnerable victims, increase the offense level determined under subdivision (1) by 2 additional levels.

(c) Special Instruction

(1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if an adjustment from §2H1.1(b)(1) applies.

Commentary

Application Notes:

1. Subsection (a) applies to offenses that are hate crimes. Note that special evidentiary requirements govern the application of this subsection.

Do not apply subsection (a) on the basis of gender in the case of a sexual offense. In such cases, this factor is taken into account by the offense level of the Chapter Two offense guideline. Moreover, do not apply subsection (a) if an adjustment from §2H1.1(b)(1) applies.

2. For purposes of subsection (b), "vulnerable victim" means a person (A) who is a victim of the offense of conviction and any conduct for which the defendant is accountable under §1B1.3 (Relevant Conduct); and (B) who is unusually vulnerable due to age, physical or mental condition, or who is otherwise particularly susceptible to the criminal conduct.

Subsection (b) applies to offenses involving an unusually vulnerable victim in which the defendant knows or should have known of the victim’s unusual vulnerability. The adjustment would apply, for example, in a fraud case in which the defendant marketed an ineffective cancer cure or in a robbery in which the defendant selected a handicapped victim. But it would not apply in a case in which the defendant sold fraudulent securities by mail to the general public and one of the victims happened to be senile. Similarly, for example, a bank teller is not an unusually vulnerable victim solely by virtue of the teller’s position in a bank.

Do not apply subsection (b) if the factor that makes the person a vulnerable victim is incorporated in the offense guideline. For example, if the offense guideline provides an enhancement for the age of the victim, this subsection would not be applied unless the victim was unusually vulnerable for reasons unrelated to age.

3. The adjustments from subsections (a) and (b) are to be applied cumulatively. Do not, however, apply subsection (b) in a case in which subsection (a) applies unless a victim of the offense was unusually vulnerable for reasons unrelated to race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation.

4. If an enhancement from subsection (b) applies and the defendant’s criminal history includes a prior sentence for an offense that involved the selection of a vulnerable victim, an upward departure may be warranted.
If you are familiar with the Sentencing Guidelines, then you know that sentencing enhancements are provided based on a very wide range of criteria -- including all sorts of things related to intent or motive.

The DoJ's National Criminal Justice Reference Service links to this site (http://www.adl.org/99hatecrime/intro.asp) for further explanation of hate crime legislation.

Anyway, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of hate crime legislation in Wisconsin v. Mitchell (http://laws.findlaw.com/us/508/476.html ) (92-515), 508 US 47 (1993). The Court explained (in part):

Traditionally, sentencing judges have considered a wide variety of factors in addition to evidence bearing on guilt in determining what sentence to impose on a convicted defendant. See Payne v. Tennessee, 501 U.S. 808 820-821 (1991); United States v. Tucker, 404 U.S. 443, 446 (1972); Williams v. New York, 337 U.S. 241, 246 (1949). The defendant's motive for committing the offense is one important factor. See 1 W. LeFave & A. Scott, Substantive Criminal Law 3.6(b), p. 324 (1986) ("Motives are most relevant when the trial judge sets the defendant's sentence, and it is not uncommon for a defendant to receive a minimum sentence because he was acting with good motives, or a rather high sentence because of his bad motives"); cf. Tison v. Arizona, 481 U.S. 137, 156 (1987) ("Deeply ingrained in our legal tradition is the idea that the more purposeful is the criminal conduct, the more serious is the offense, and, therefore, the more severely it ought to be punished"). Thus, in many States, the commission of a murder or other capital offense for pecuniary gain is a separate aggravating circumstance under the capital sentencing statute. See, e.g., Ariz.Rev.Stat.Ann. 13-703(F)(5) (1989); Fla.Stat. 921.141(5)(f) (Supp. 1992); Miss.Code Ann. 99-19-101(5)(f) (Supp. 1992); N.C.Gen.Stat. 15A-2000(e)(6) (1992); Wyo.Stat. 6-2-102(h)(vi) (Supp. 1992).

... Thus, in Barclay v. Florida, 463 U.S. 939 (1983) (plurality opinion), we allowed the sentencing judge to take into account the defendant's racial animus towards his victim. The evidence in that case showed that the defendant's membership in the Black Liberation Army and desire to provoke a "race war" were related to the murder of a white man for which he was convicted. See id. at 942-944. Because "the elements of racial hatred in [the] murder" were relevant to several aggravating factors, we held that the trial judge permissibly took this evidence into account in sentencing the defendant to death. Id. at 949, and n. 7.

Thus, it is nothing new to take into account the hateful motive of the crime in sentencing the defendant.

No, see, in the United States, when one commits a crime against a minority, it is considered a hate crime, as it looked upon as racism. I don't always agree with this, but in most cases that assumption is right.

You are mistaken. See my earlier post.

How in the hell could a 16 year old guy dating a 12 year old (probably pre-pubescent) girl be considered normal? Thats terrible....i mean I know thats stuff happens in the Ozark mountains but come on

The example that popped into my mind was my friend's sister and her boyfriend. She was 12 and not "pre-pubescent" and dating a 16 year old. In fact, if I recall grade 7 most of the girls weren't pre-pubescent.

18 to 14 isn't illegal here, then again neither is 14 and 40. (Not a relationship I would approve of, but people don't need my approval to date, otherwise Paris Hilton would be alone until death).

A random sixteen year old male and random twelve year old female are likely to close enough in maturity that they can form a healthy relationship where neither party has dramtic emotional control over the other.

It's not up to random assholes to tell kids to stay away from other kids, a twelve year old girl can quite effectively decide if she wants to make out with a teenaged boy. And if the answer is yes, she can decide so, if the answer is no, he had best listen. At no point does any asshole need to intervene, even if they disapprove.

The hispanic boy was attacked because of his race. Had he been white, he would not have been attacked. Therefore, it was a hate crime.

I think the two attackers deserve life in prison, or death, if the victim dies.

King Edward II of England was sodomized to death with a red-hot poker. Edward II was a well-known homosexual; his lover's genitals were cut off before he was beheaded. Edward II had a history of conflict with the nobility, who repeatedly banished his former lover Piers Gaveston, the Earl of Cornwall.

- from wikipedia.

18 having sex with 14 is "statuary rape" (spelling???).

same with a 17 year old with a 16 year old. basically it's what society deems as "legal" sexual active age. that came out funny, but you understand, non?

it's weird yea... girls getting puberty early is most likely caused by growth hormones in cows and milk. yea...

Honestly Hate Crime or not both of these kids do deserve what ever the maximum penalty possible is. People like that usually grow up to be nut jobs, and if they spend enough time in prison they will likely be exposed to other like minded nut jobs whose influence will probably continue if they are ever released. SO I think life in prison or death are the only two viable options here

If he was trying to molest a 12 year old girl he got what he had coming...perverts like that are the worst kind of scum, but if he didn't then those two kids need to be beat on the kidneys with large saps untill they piss blood

I love how the 16-year old Hispanic victim went from merely suspected by his attackers of trying to kiss a 12-year old girl to a pervert that was "trying to molest" the girl.

As you've confirmed in the other thread, you are a bigot.

I like how you have the selective reading ability...I said that those other kids need the maximum sentece allowed by law, but yet you choose to ignore that so you can make you're little snide remarks, good job

If he was trying to molest a 12 year old girl he got what he had coming...perverts like that are the worst kind of scum, but if he didn't then those two kids need to be beat on the kidneys with large saps untill they piss blood

from someone who supposedly knows a few details of the case(not me,and take it as third hand rumor please)

the hispanic was a "gangbanger" and got really aggressive with the 12 year old girl(everyone was intoxicated also from what i heard)

the 2 sick nut jobs got pissed and dragged him outside,and we all know what happened after.

i have 2 thoughts on this.

1. what the f#$# is a 12 year old girl doing at a party with 16 to 18 year old boys partying?
her parents need a smack in the head imho. parents baffle the shit out of me sometimes,or the lack of parenting i should say.

that said,she is a 12 yr old,and if the kid was in fact attempting any kind of sexual advances,he deserved to get his ass soundly beaten..to the point of needing a visit to the e.r.
last i checked,it is pretty frowned upon by most,to molest(and that is what it is) a 12 year old period,unless it is another peer playing doctor.

2. i have not heard,nor did the article mention whether he was or was not an illegal alien.
and before everyone flames me,i am not saying if he was illegal he deserved it..far from it.

there are many dynamics at work here,more then meets the eye.
you have to consider,if he was in fact illegal,there is tremendous tension down at the border states between americans and illegals.(the fact that illegals cross the border..commit crimes..then bounce back to escape responsibility for their actions)(it is a REAL ISSUE to alot of people,they actually dozed a border town because it was so out of control)
a minority i would imagine,but it is a real issue none the less.

factor in alcohol,the point that quite possibly the 12 year old was known to the assailants,add in the existing tensions allready prevalent,and possible gang affiliation..it is easy to imagine some good ole boys giving the guy a beating.they may have figured he would try his luck,get lucky and run and escape justice/responsibilty or they were just fed up with the situation and took it out on the guy..a myriad of scenarios really.

the point is,if the guy was attempting something untowards to the 12 year old..he deserved a severe ass kicking..period.

that said,sodomizing the guy and leaving him for dead was just flat out animal and sick.
however,on the flip side...there has been many poor innocent girls raped and beaten and left for dead by border crimminals...hispanic and white.

so that may have been on their minds as well.

if i had witnessed a guy molesting a 12 year old,i would definately do the ass kicking thing,maybe even shoot his diseased ass to clean the gene pool some,but what they did,makes them as bad or worse then him...fucking torture..plain and simple.

no mercy for them either,there are lines you dont cross in a civilized society,and torture and rape is a line you do not cross.

if you commit those kinds of acts,even in retaliation,you are no different then the offence you object too.

to digress,this is partly why i am strongly for serious border control.
when people feel like they are being shit on,and they have no recoarse to get justice,they take it into their own hands.
and that can get quite ugly.
it would actually protect the immigrants by ridding the populace of the resentment and frustration they feel towards illegals coming into the country,leaching benefits,committing crimes and then running home.

and of coarse i do not think the majority of illegal immigrants do that(with the exception of collecting welfare and using the er to the point i pay 3000.00 dollars for a broken foot to pay for all the fake s.s.#s they use to dodge the bill)

the only clear part of this sorry story is,the 2 guys that did this despicable crime should never be allowed to walk the same street as you or i.

everything else is speculation,but it is not as clear cut as it seems with regards to the victim.
they may have saved the girls life,then again,it could be all bullshit and some hayseeds took out there frustration on some innocent guy.

either way...secure the border and you will eliminate any defence to these heinous acts.

Three lives ruined in an instant.
Delicious.

<snip>

If your rumours are true:

The 16 year old is a friggin' creep and needed to be removed from the girl's presence and charged. Forcing yourself on someone is always wrong.

The 17 and 18 year old shouldn't of been the ones to do it, raping a rapist is still rape and still makes you a rapist.

PS: When I was 12, "playing doctor" was far removed from my brain, that's like 7.

I would discribe it more as "horrible"

If your rumours are true:

The 16 year old is a friggin' creep and needed to be removed from the girl's presence. Forcing yourself on someone is always wrong.

The 17 and 18 year old shouldn't of been the ones to do it, raping a rapist is still rape and still makes you a rapist.

PS: When I was 12, "playing doctor" was far removed from my brain, that's like 7.


I fully agree

I fully agree

Heh, sorry, I left something out. :D

The only problem with that is that you cannot say that a person who commits a hate crime is ignorant. Stupid and dumb by society's standard in that situation, but not ignorant all around. They do these crimes based not off a personal vendetta, but simply because of the color of their skin or their heritage. Because of that, I think hate crimes should be judged to a higher severity due to the fact that the cause is even less justifiable.

I also think that minorities should be charged with hate crimes as they are just as capable of doing such. Some members are perhaps more racist than the people whom they think hate them.

while i agree with you in principle,the reality is,in these politically correct times...i can be jumped(and have) by 4 black guys that proceeded to beat me into a coma with a cinderblock(explains my ramblings?)all the while saying "take that cracker" and some other shit i cant remember seeing as i was busy trying to dodge a cinderblock.
never in a million years would they be charged with a hatye crime,but flip the scenario,and i would get the needle.
so i guess,a crime is a crime is a crime.
equal punishment under the law...takes political correctnes out of the equation so politicos cant "make a name by winning a case"

my 2 cents as a victim.

Of course not - The Minority NEVER commit crimes - It would destroy the very fabric of our politically correct lives!

The rednecks probably lied about the girl to begin with.

Besides, 16 vs. 12 isn't a horrid age difference. If she felt uncomfortable by it, told him and he left then that wasn't "molesting" it was getting shot down by a girl who's a little too young.

But, beating and raping someone? That's over the line. Always.
Unless it's a Nazi, they're sub-human.

if a 16 year old boy made advances at my 12 year old girl(not that she would be there)i would....cant say on a public forum..but i bet my son would have something to say about it as well.

12 year old girls cannot make informed decisions about sex with anyone older then their peer group,and if you believe otherwise....find some help!

there are exceptions to every rule(pedophiles count on that...eh?)but most 12 year old girls play at being sexy,and fantasise about older tougher guys(pedo again) but in reality,they are just beginning to discover their sexuality,and for that,they need someone who is going thru the same growing pains.

simply put...i love my son more then life itself....if he laid a hand on a 12 year old when he was 16...he would be lucky to be alive or walking..period.

i am no prude,but people that sexualise 12 year olds have been brainwashed by all the non stop imagery shoved down their throats by the media,and i love sex and i am very open about it,i am also aware of the fact that 100 years ago 12 year olds were getting married....but then again,people died at their mid 20's

times change....in my opinion...under 16 is off limits..period..unless of coarse you are 16.

sorry to all you pedo's out there,but your lack of confidence with women or men your own age doesnt float with any justifacation you can come up with to molest minors.

this was not addressed to anyone here and especially to whom i responded....only to any lurkers out there hoping to find justifacation for their illness.

If your rumours are true:

The 16 year old is a friggin' creep and needed to be removed from the girl's presence and charged. Forcing yourself on someone is always wrong.

The 17 and 18 year old shouldn't of been the ones to do it, raping a rapist is still rape and still makes you a rapist.

PS: When I was 12, "playing doctor" was far removed from my brain, that's like 7.

i agree completely,but i still feel 12 year olds are aware of their sexuality,but not mentally prepared for all the other things it brings.
and it is not the place of an older guy to "break them in"
maybe i am too much seventies show,that was my home..lol..but i know how it was for me,but i may be mistaken.

if what your saying is correct,a mature 12 year old girl that is ready for sex with a 16 or 18 year old,should have no qualms with having sex with a 20 or 30 or 40 year old..it is only sex after all...no?

if a 16 year old boy made advances at my 12 year old girl(not that she would be there)i would....cant say on a public forum..but i bet my son would have something to say about it as well.

times change....in my opinion...under 16 is off limits..period..unless of coarse you are 16.

Contradiction?

I said they were peers. The law here (it varies of course) says up to a four year age gap is acceptable, which would make that perfectly legal here.

I am not peers with any 12 year olds. I don't even know any 12 year olds. So none of this affects me.

who the hell would let a 12 year old go to a High School Party anyway? Shame on the parents more!

Of course not - The Minority NEVER commit crimes - It would destroy the very fabric of our politically correct lives!

lol....yeppers.

as an aside,it happened in n.j.(gun grabbers heaven)and since i use to obey the law...i was unarmed:-(

if it was in pa. where i have a carry permit...i would have been able to brandish a weapon and that would have probably ended it ...considering they got me with a cinderblock and 4 guys...a gun would have chilled them or at the least gave me a fighting chance....alas..hindsight is 20-20

to the point,i am not saying minorities dont have legit grievances,but please,when i get beaten for being white,how is that any different from those twit klan asshats?

i agree completely,but i still feel 12 year olds are aware of their sexuality,but not mentally prepared for all the other things it brings.
and it is not the place of an older guy to "break them in"
maybe i am too much seventies show,that was my home..lol..but i know how it was for me,but i may be mistaken.

if what your saying is correct,a mature 12 year old girl that is ready for sex with a 16 or 18 year old,should have no qualms with having sex with a 20 or 30 or 40 year old..it is only sex after all...no?

Technically yes, however both partners have alot to consider, and it's not likely a wise decision, the informed decision will always be no, the only time it might be not unwise is a very emotionally immature 16 year old, and a very emotionally mature 12 year old (without magical intervention a 12 year old will never have the maturity to relate well to a 30 year old, for example).

And, the older one is also in a conflict of interest, they can never make a fair call because they'll always have the desire to say it's okay.

How do you fix that? I'm not sure, but, if the older partner is "parent approved" that's probably a sign it's acceptable?

I don't know, this is truely irrelevant to this discussion, just me babbling.

who the hell would let a 12 year old go to a High School Party anyway? Shame on the parents more!

that was my main point...the parents should be slapped upside their twit heads.

Contradiction?

I said they were peers. The law here (it varies of course) says up to a four year age gap is acceptable, which would make that perfectly legal here.

I am not peers with any 12 year olds. I don't even know any 12 year olds. So none of this affects me.

please dont think i was referring anything towards you...i just take issue with your position that a 16 / 12 difference is acceptable.

why ,i have no idea...but i find 22 / 18 or 21 /17 more palatable.

it is still a 4 year differential,my wife is 5 years younger then me,but if she was 12 and i was 17 i would kick my own ass if i hit on her..lol

please dont think i was referring anything towards you...i just take issue with your position that a 16 / 12 difference is acceptable.

why ,i have no idea...but i find 22 / 18 or 21 /17 more palatable.

Because the older you get the less those 4 years mean in terms of maturity.

I'm not saying it's always right, just that it is sometimes not wrong.

that was my main point...the parents should be slapped upside their twit heads.

Political Correct Analysis

>Girl was White
>>Can Conclude that Parents were also white

>Secret aj man threatens white parent of white girl by "slapping"
>>>>>>Status: OK to say

Counter Conclusion Variables
>If Secret aj man was slightly "whiter" in skin color than the Parents
>>>>>>Status: Not Ok to say - Racial Statement

:p

Three lives ruined in an instant.
Delicious.

Four. I'm sure that 12 year old girl is not very happy.

Then there are the parents and siblings...

Four. I'm sure that 12 year old girl is not very happy.

Then there are the parents and siblings...

When I was a minor, I was always taught to just "Stick with girls from your grade" One grade higher or lower was acceptable, but 4 years, come on. If a 16 year old cannot get laid (or kiss) someone of his own age - at a party full of other people, then he is doomed for life. Taking advantage of a 12 year old is not acceptable, it is illegal, and should be punishable. just because she is physically able to have sex, and certainly can say that she wants to, doesnt mean that is what she needs or is ready for. I mean come on.

Technically yes, however both partners have alot to consider, and it's not likely a wise decision, the informed decision will always be no, the only time it might be not unwise is a very emotionally immature 16 year old, and a very emotionally mature 12 year old (without magical intervention a 12 year old will never have the maturity to relate well to a 30 year old, for example).

And, the older one is also in a conflict of interest, they can never make a fair call because they'll always have the desire to say it's okay.

How do you fix that? I'm not sure, but, if the older partner is "parent approved" that's probably a sign it's acceptable?

I don't know, this is truely irrelevant to this discussion, just me babbling.



hehehe,i tend to babble myself....your not really,you make some valid points i did not consider...thanks.

i guess i have a knee jerk reaction when it comes to any girl under 14..to me it seems like it should be off limits.

unless your a peer,i will concede that girls mature faster then boys...we are so obsessed with the bits..we forget the person...which actually makes your point insofar as the 30 year old acting on his needs and not on what is right for the girl,whereas the 18 year old is the same mature wise possibly as the 14 year old girl...damn i hate being wrong:-)

One of two things. If the drop is long enough, and forceful enough, your neck snaps immediately. This causes instant death. The feet twitch a bit. If the person is tied prior to hanging, the whole body does a little floppy thing.

Most often, though, the neck does not snap. Then, you're hanging there while this rope slowly strangles you. It's not much fun. Strangulation is immensely painful in its own right, having it done by a hemp rope moreso. Survivors of hangings (sometimes they'd come along with a pardon, and cut you down) used to describe it like their neck, from jaw to collarbone, felt as though it was on fire. Understandably, it's pretty scary. Not uncommon for the perpetrator to urinate on himself and members of the inevitable 'audience', as well as lose control of his bowels.
If the rope isn't tight around the neck, you can hang for a very long time. In the 1760s, one criminal hung for six hours. He did not pass out until the very end.

Still interested in public hangings? Then you're a sadist. Maybe we should hang you for 'being a perv'?
Maybe in America that's what happened as long as they kept hanging, but then the US never really got the 'hang' of the long drop technique. In Britain they brought hanging to a fine art, with the finest hangman of all time, Albert Pierrepoint, managing seven seconds from the point the prisoner left his cell to the drop and effective decapitation as the vertebrae are severed. No hemp fandango for him.

It does seem odd that they could be executed...but only if it's a hate crime.

Their victim is not dead, but if he dies, the death penalty is automatic for this kind of crime. Remember, they are from Texas. They love to kill people there. And I think these losers deserve it.

When I was a minor, I was always taught to just "Stick with girls from your grade" One grade higher or lower was acceptable, but 4 years, come on. If a 16 year old cannot get laid (or kiss) someone of his own age - at a party full of other people, then he is doomed for life. Taking advantage of a 12 year old is not acceptable, it is illegal, and should be punishable. just because she is physically able to have sex, and certainly can say that she wants to, doesnt mean that is what she needs or is ready for. I mean come on.

So beating this kid, stabbing his intestines with a metal pole, and pouring bleach on him then leaving him for dead until he is found 12 hours later, you think this is justified??? Were YOU at that party? Did YOU see what happened??? This is all speculation and heresay right now. No matter what happened, that poor kid did not deserve this.

now go fuck yourself.:upyours:

So beating this kid, stabbing his intestines with a metal pole, and pouring bleach on him then leaving him for dead until he is found 12 hours later, you think this is justified??? Were YOU at that party? Did YOU see what happened??? This is all speculation and heresay right now. No matter what happened, that poor kid did not deserve this.

now go fuck yourself.:upyours:

i agree with you,but flip that righteous indignation around and assume that is your kid sister?
your assuming evil white guys brutally attacked a person of color....and you may be right....but for arguments sake...and you know about as much as me....what if the guy was trying to molest the girl?

do i condone what they did..hell no...but be carefull of your preconceived notions that whatever is white and american is...wrong...your just as bad as the punks that committed this crime,and lest there be no doubt...whether or not he was molesting the girl,he does not deserve the barbarity committed upon him.

but you automatically assume the boys that attacked him did it for nefarious reasons...and to quote you...you werent there..that speaks volumes about you.
you werent there either...why assume they had no reason?

was it wrong..of coarse,are you wrong in assuming it was rascist and pity the poor minority....yes...that guy could have been another in a long line of rapist's that bounce across the border to dodge the law...but i guess it is easy to pass judgement when your detached from the situation...and letting your hatred of america bleed into your opinions....grrrrr

get a clue,the problems at the border are unfathonable to you ivory tower types,but i guess,if a white guy does it...condemn america...if a minority does it daily...?we held them down?
go figure you college types..always so fast to judge,but not so fast to look at the real situation,guess you are conditioned with the du soundbites..lol.

i hope the guys that perpetrated this crime get cooked..but then again,i think we should shoot the fucks that jump our border and commit crimes and run back to mehico..you know the one that just shot 2 cops in denver and all the ilegals covered for him so he could escape...but i guess he is a freedom fighter?

your mentality baffles me.

are you so filled with self hate and guilt you cant see evil for what it is...white black brown?

i stand against any hatred and senseless violence....you seem to stand against it as well..unless it is directed towards whites....get over your guilt or quit listening to your proffessor...he dont know shit about the real world...he lives off your dime.

Now skimming that, you are trying to compare what the kid who was left for dead did to what the people who left him for dead did on the grounds that he is Mexican. No racism there.

The thread title sounds so pleasant, and then you read the article. :(

I must say I am shocked and dissappointed about the degree to which people have attempted to blame the victim for this attack. "Secret" third-hand "information" that he was a "gangbanger," an "illegal," and tried to rape the girl.

Shame on you.

Details of brutal pipe assault emerge (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3826051.html):

The brutalized teen was a popular student and high school football player in Spring once featured in a fashion layout in the school's yearbook.

Two older teens accused of attacking him were described by other youths as troublemakers and "skinheads."

In a case that's garnering national attention, the 17-year-old victim clings to life at Memorial Hermann Hospital while the other two are in the Harris County Jail — charged with aggravated sexual assault after prosecutors accused them of sodomizing him with a pipe because they think he tried to kiss a 12-year-old girl.

"How do you muster up that much hatred?" asked Carolyn Cook, the mother of one of the victim's friends.

The brutal night began about 11:30 p.m. Saturday when the teen went to a party at a home in the 21300 block of Glenbranch. Investigators don't know how many people were there but said the group included David Henry Tuck, 18, of the 3400 block of Nutwood, and Keith Robert Turner, 17, of the 21000 block of Star Grass.

Incensed at the teen because of the girl, Tuck and Turner dragged him in the back yard and began beating him, detectives said.

"They stomped his head with their boots," said Harris County Sheriff's Lt. John Denholm. "They stripped him naked and sodomized him with the PVC pipe used to hold up a patio umbrella."

Tuck then kicked the pipe, causing even further damage, prosecutors said at a Thursday morning hearing.

"I don't mean just a little bit," Harris County prosecutor Mike Trent told District Judge Michael McSpadden. "He kicked it in and shoved it so far in that he has caused major internal injuries and organ damage." Tuck wore steel-toed boots when he attacked the teen and kicked him in the head, Trent said.

The attackers slashed his chest with a knife and hurled ethnic slurs at the teen, who is Hispanic. Then they apparently tried to cover up the crime, authorities said. "They poured bleach on his body to destroy any evidence," Denholm said.

The victim was left for dead in the yard for 10 hours before help was called.

Steven Bullock saw his friend Thursday at Memorial Hermann Hospital. The teen was unconscious, his chest marked from the knife attack.

"I was standing next to his bed. He didn't look good," Bullock said. "It was worse than I expected."

He remains in extremely critical condition, prosecutors said, and may not survive.

The attack stunned students at Klein Collins High School, which the younger teen once attended before transferring.

"Everyone is praying and hoping that he gets better. He's a good friend," said David Cook, a former football teammate. "Nobody is going to be the same after this. It's all going to be different."

A Web profile of the teen on MySpace shows pictures of the smiling student with his friends. It lists his interests — not unlike those of others his age — such as Houston Rockets star Tracy McGrady and favorite musicians. Outraged friends left messages, including one that read: "God is watching over you and he knows as well as i that you are too strong to let this overcome you. I hope to see you real soon."

Cook called his friend "a cool kid" who liked nothing better than cracking jokes with his buddies: "I don't see how that could happen to somebody I knew. He's a good friend of mine."

Cook said he has known Turner for several years and doesn't understand how he could have been involved in such an act.

"He was always one of my best friends. I never thought he could do something like this," Cook said.

Turner's alleged involvement in the attack also baffled Cook's mother.

"David Tuck is more well-known for having a rougher reputation," Carolyn Cook said. "(Turner) has a reputation of being more of a follower."

Bullock said he has heard Tuck use slurs.

The victime probably would not have gone to the party had he known the two also would be there, David Cook said.

"Everybody has heard about David (Tuck)," David Cook said. "Everybody knows him as a skinhead around here."

Cook said he has seen Nazi swastikas painted on the fence at Tuck's house. "It sounds like something you would see in a movie, but it's all real," he said.

Several people who live in Tuck's subdivision portrayed Tuck as a boy who had been violent and troubled since he was young and had long exhibited a fascination with neo-Nazis.

Jason Savage, 17, and Tommy Peterson, both Klein Collins sophomores, said Tuck paraded around the subdivision with a flag of a swastika on Martin Luther King Day.

Richard Rogers, who lives next door to the family, answered his door Thursday night with a .357-caliber Magnum in his hand. He said he was carrying it because he was concerned that Tuck would be out on bail.

"The kid is a white supremacist," Rogers said.

More details about the attack surfaced Thursday as Tuck appeared in court to answer the aggravated sexual assault charge. Although his bail had been set at $20,000, McSpadden ordered him held without bail. Turner, also charged with aggravated sexual assault, is jailed in lieu of $100,000 bail.

Prosecutors revealed that a third person, a juvenile, may have participated in the assault. That boy is being treated only as a witness and will not be charged, prosecutors said.

Prosecutors will not pursue the incident as a hate crime — because that would not enhance the first-degree felony charges or penalty possibilities — but said evidence of an ethnic motivation will be presented to jurors to consider if and when they weigh punishment, Trent said. Tuck and Turner are white.

The suspects admitted involvement in the attack, but "they're pointing fingers at each other as to who did what," Trent told the judge.

Defense attorney Chuck Hinton, appointed to represent Tuck, declined to comment. Trent said the charges will be upgraded to capital murder if the victim dies.

Family members of the teen, Tuck and Turner could not be reached for comment.


Teen Attack Suspects Had Crime Records (http://cbs4.com/topstories/topstories_story_118101507.html) (excerpt):

KHOU reports investigators say this isn't the first run-in with the law for Tuck, who is on probation for a cross-burning in Liberty County, or Turner.

In addition, Turner was supposed to be in jail when the attack happened, according to KHOU. He was sentenced to 90 days in jail after he pleaded guilty to evading detention on March 3rd. He was transferred to Montgomery County where he was serving time for a theft conviction, and was released April 11, a full month early.

Sources tell KHOU that Tuck also has an extensive criminal record as a juvenile. Charges of assault on a public servant, aggravated assault with bodily injury and two other assault charges.

At Klein Collins High where at one time, both suspects and the victim were students, some students tell KHOU that both suspects had a reputation for violence.

Turner was known for his fits. "He was violent. He would go into these little fits where he would just beat every body up. All the time," a student told KHOU.

Another student told KHOU that Tuck "had tattoos on him of Hitler's birthday and all that stuff."

God, no matter who this had happened to...this is really, really horrible. No one deserves that. Not even the kind of person who would do that to someone else.

The thread title sounds so pleasant, and then you read the article. :(

"Nobody should have anything inserted into their ass that's larger than a fist and less loving than a dildo." -George Carlin. :p

I hope Cat-Tribe's article shut you people up, with all your "secret rumors" and assumtions.

Your repeated self-rightous declerations that minorities can't be charged with hate crimes os bullshit. AND CAME AFTER CAT-TRIBES SHOWED THAT UNDER THE LAW, MINORITIES CAN BE CHARGED WITH HATE CRIMES AGAINST A WHITE PERSON, AND THEN GAVE AN EXAMPLE OF WHEN A BLACK MAN WAS CHARGED WITH A HATE CRIME AGAINST A WHITE MAN.

It's this kind of thing that leads to the kind of shit that happened in Texas.

In my opinion, everybody at the party that did not try to stop the brutal assult is culpuble. Had I been there, it'd be the fucking skinheads who are in the ER right now.

Racist scum has no place in society. These two kids should never walk free again. And everyone at that party has that poor victim's mental and physical scars on their conscience.

I pray God that he survives.

How in the hell could a 16 year old guy dating a 12 year old (probably pre-pubescent) girl be considered normal? Thats terrible....i mean I know thats stuff happens in the Ozark mountains but come on


Fortunatly we live in a society not of individual moral judgments, but of law.

Now we can think of what the law should be all we like, but it helps to know what the law IS. Texas Penal Code Section 22.011 (a) (2) states that it is sexual assault of a minor to:

intentionally or knowingly:

(A) causes the penetration of the anus or sexual organ of a child by
any means;

(B) causes the penetration of the mouth of a child by the sexual
organ of the actor;

(C) causes the sexual organ of a child to contact or penetrate the
mouth, anus, or sexual organ of another person, including the actor;

(D) causes the anus of a child to contact the mouth, anus, or sexual
organ of another person, including the actor; or

(E) causes the mouth of a child to contact the anus or sexual organ
of another person, including the actor.

Now it's true that an element of consent is not at issue here, so it doesn't matter what the girl wanted. However, which of these did he do? From my interpretation, a mouth to mouth kiss is none of these.

So the simple and only question I have to ask is, what is wrong with a 16 year old kissing a 12 year old? Not based on moral judgments, not based on what some of us may think is wrong or "icky" but on relevant Texas LAW?

I should throw here also the definition of indecency with a child:

§ 21.11. Indecency With a Child


(a) A person commits an offense if, with a child younger than 17 years and not the person's spouse, whether the child is of the same or opposite sex, the person:

(1) engages in sexual contact with the child or causes the child to
engage in sexual contact; or

(2) with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person:

(A) exposes the person's anus or any part of the person's genitals,
knowing the child is present; or

(B) causes the child to expose the child's anus or any part of the
child's genitals.

(c) In this section, "sexual contact" means the following acts, if committed with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person:

(1) any touching by a person, including touching through clothing, of
the anus, breast, or any part of the genitals of a child; or

(2) any touching of any part of the body of a child, including touching
through clothing, with the anus, breast, or any part of the genitals of
a person.

again there is no meeting of this definition

I must say I am shocked and dissappointed about the degree to which people have attempted to blame the victim for this attack. "Secret" third-hand "information" that he was a "gangbanger," an "illegal," and tried to rape the girl.

Shame on you.

Details of brutal pipe assault emerge (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3826051.html):

I think, from reading this, we can reach an agreement. No matter if you like or dislike hispanics, no matter if this kid was a illegal or a legal, no matter if this kid was a gang banger or just a local jock, and no matter how young the girl he was with was, nobody deserves this sort of attack.

To say otherwise is just unhuman.

And Fass, Jesus your kinky. The thread title sounds so pleasant?:p

The only good thing that guy deserved, if him attempting to kiss a twelve year old girl was true, is a good smack on the back of the head and a good talking to because he might turned into one of those guys who ends up dating 13 years old girls when he is in his twenty’s. But, those bastards went way too far by raping the kid and then pouring bleach on him and leaving him for dead.

Hate crime laws were created at a time when such crimes of racism were out of control, a real national emergency. They were created to help fight the KKK and other such groups.

Someone earlyer said that when a minority is killed by a white person in the US, it's a hate crime. This is not true. To get the hate crime label added on, there has to be proof, or at least eveidence that the crime was racially motivated. Any race can be the victim of hate crimes, and anyone of any race can be charged with a hate crime.

Catchy thread title, by the by.

But most would be white, Almost the same thing happen to a white guy close to where I live, Two black guy beat up a white guy and did the something to him with a baseball bat and it did not even make the newspaper. The only way I know about it is my brother was the officer in charge of the investigation. Where the two charged with a hate crime, NO, where they charged with attempted murder, NO, Did they do a long jail sentence, NOPE, they where out in a few years, but the man they victimize, had to spend years in therapy, and under go numerous surgeries. I am not racist, but the law is not fair to everyone. :upyours:

I think, from reading this, we can reach an agreement. No matter if you like or dislike hispanics, no matter if this kid was a illegal or a legal, no matter if this kid was a gang banger or just a local jock, and no matter how young the girl he was with was, nobody deserves this sort of attack.

To say otherwise is just unhuman.

And Fass, Jesus your kinky. The thread title sounds so pleasant?:p

Agreed in full.

Thank you to Siphon101 for the information posted on the legal qualifications, etc. I was beginning to wonder when a "kiss" constituted rape and/or molestation.

We really don't know what happened at all between the victim and this girl. We don't know if he knew how old she was, we don't know if maybe she tried to kiss him? This could be a case in which just telling the guy she was 12 would've put a stop to any future contact. So, can we please stop classifying this young man as a "pervert", "rapist", and "child molester"?

I agree with everyone else, that whatever happene between the 16 year old victim and the 12 year old girl is irrelevant. This attack was brutal and completely unjustified, no matter how you look at it.

"Nobody should have anything inserted into their ass that's larger than a fist and less loving than a dildo." -George Carlin. :p

I heard that....

Another sad day in human history. We all know tensions are high regarding Mexican Imperialism in the United States lately, with large scale protests planned for May 1st and other days. However two Texas teens cast a sad shadow on humanity with this horrible act of racism:
Link (http://www.nbc5i.com/news/9047577/detail.html) :(

i couldnt read the story, i felt sick after the first paragraph. whateve the final stuff is. those kids need serious help.

Those kids need to spend the rest of their days in a really prison. I think Huntsville fits the bill.

Those 2 fuckers are probably shitting their pants hoping the hispanic boy doesnt die, because then it would be murder. You got enough balls to beat the shit out of a minority, but to you have the cojones to handle the consequences you racist fucks?

1. All crimes are hate crimes.


I think with some reflection you'll realize that driving above the speed limit, while a crime, has absolutely nothing to do with hate.

I think with some reflection you'll realize that driving above the speed limit, while a crime, has absolutely nothing to do with hate.
It is possible that in Mt-Tau's native language (if that is not Englsih), crime actually means murder. It certainly has only that meaning in mine.

Sick SOB's. They should be put away forever. If the kid dies they should get death penalty. :sniper:
If they get off who's their next victim going to be. People that sick should never be allowed to be in society.

Everyone seems to be very concerned and angry when a hispanic person is assulted/raped.

But when this happens http://www.alipac.us/article88.html no one seems to care about it. In fact I havent seen a single post about this subject on the forum.

You can bet those hispanic gang rapers wont get the death penalty.

Everyone seems to be very concerned and angry when a hispanic person is assulted/raped.

But when this happens http://www.alipac.us/article88.html no one seems to care about it.

Nonsense! Why, the site you linked to is concerned about it. Of course, they only are concerned about it because they think it somehow has something to do with illegal immigration.

One-policy donkeys, linking everything to their one cause and braying endlessly about it.

They should be raped to death themselves. Wether the boy dies or not. IN ALL orfices of their body. Serioulsy.

Do we know if the kid is going to die or not?

those kids need serious help.
past tense. They needed help; they evidently didn't get it. One wonders what they did get, and where they got it from.

I can't stand racists. Especially Texan racists.
I cant beleive nobody else picked up on this :P

Judging from the racism, it's most likely that the business about the girl was just a lie.

I'd say they deserve the guillotine, but the death penalty is too risky, so I say just lock them in a dark room for the rest of their lives.

"Nobody should have anything inserted into their ass that's larger than a fist and less loving than a dildo." -George Carlin. :p
About the only thing he's said that I whole heartedly agree with.

I say they fry the bastards

It doesnt make sense to me. If you are a racist and you view a race as inferior and disgusting then how can you get yourself to have sex with someone of their race?

What wouldve made more sense is if they beaten the guy to death, but engaging in sexual activity with him?? Perhaps their homosexual racists but usually homosexuals are very tolerant regarding the race issue.

:confused:

It doesnt make sense to me. If you are a racist and you view a race as inferior and disgusting then how can you get yourself to have sex with someone of their race?

What wouldve made more sense is if they beaten the guy to death, but engaging in sexual activity with him?? Perhaps their homosexual racists but usually homosexuals are very tolerant regarding the race issue.

:confused:
Great, now we have to get into a discussion about the nature of rape, thanks.

It doesnt make sense to me. If you are a racist and you view a race as inferior and disgusting then how can you get yourself to have sex with someone of their race?

What wouldve made more sense is if they beaten the guy to death, but engaging in sexual activity with him?? Perhaps their homosexual racists but usually homosexuals are very tolerant regarding the race issue.

:confused:

I suspect they're homophobic closet homosexuals as well as racists. Now those two go together all too well.

Well, with any luck, they will be in a nice prison where the other inmates appreciate pretty young teenagers. They might learn a think or two about sodomy. :)

Well, with any luck, they will be in a nice prison where the other inmates appreciate pretty young teenagers. They might learn a think or two about sodomy. :)

You think the other inmates deserve to be given things they appreciate?

You think the other inmates deserve to be given things they appreciate?

Of course. We're not barbarians. ;)

Of course. We're not barbarians. ;)
Well I don't think prisoners should be allowed to rape each other.

Well I don't think prisoners should be allowed to rape each other.

My first instinct was to say, "I do". But that's not quite accurate.

More accurate would be to say that I'm resigned to prison rape. Humans are only semi-civilized at best. We're pretty beastly actually, and violent criminals are certainly among our beastlier element. Raping eachother is what semi-civilized beasts do, and I think the best that we can hope for is to put them in a place where they can do so without involving more civilized less criminal people.

My first instinct was to say, "I do". But that's not quite accurate.

More accurate would be to say that I'm resigned to prison rape. Humans are only semi-civilized at best. We're pretty beastly actually, and violent criminals are certainly among our beastlier element. Raping eachother is what semi-civilized beasts do, and I think the best that we can hope for is to put them in a place where they can do so without involving more civilized less criminal people.

The best we can hope for? The best we can hope for is to make them feel guilty and regretful. Preventing them from raping each other would be relatively simple.

The best we can hope for? The best we can hope for is to make them feel guilty and regretful. Preventing them from raping each other would be relatively simple.

Simple, is it? Color me skeptical. Short of 24/7 solitary confinement or castration how would you go about preventing prison rape?

Simple, is it? Color me skeptical. Short of 24/7 solitary confinement or castration how would you go about preventing prison rape?

I said relatively simple. Who said I wanted to go short of those things? Anyway, guards are one important factor. The prisoners can be prevented by force if necessary. Regardless, I think prisons should do more than just temporarily separate prisoners from the public. It may not be easy, but if a way can be found to prevent them from causing more crime after release (other than just by being a deterrent), it should be put into action. Otherwise you're just teaching them to be more surreptitious.

How did it take 10 hours for the people in the party to notice the guy dying in the garden? Must have been one hell of a party if nobody noticed anything at all, presumably the victim screamed, and the perpetrators did yell reacist slurs. And somebody must have noticed him getting dragged out or otherwise being removed from the party. I'm suprised there wasn't a crowd following in the hopes there'd be a fight to watch.

How did it take 10 hours for the people in the party to notice the guy dying in the garden? Must have been one hell of a party if nobody noticed anything at all, presumably the victim screamed, and the perpetrators did yell reacist slurs. And somebody must have noticed him getting dragged out or otherwise being removed from the party. I'm suprised there wasn't a crowd following in the hopes there'd be a fight to watch.

Maybe they assumed he was just passed out. ...naked... and bleeding from his asshole.


...must've been a hell of a party. :eek:

Especially Texan racists.

George Bush doesn't care about black people.

It doesnt make sense to me. If you are a racist and you view a race as inferior and disgusting then how can you get yourself to have sex with someone of their race?

What wouldve made more sense is if they beaten the guy to death, but engaging in sexual activity with him?? Perhaps their homosexual racists but usually homosexuals are very tolerant regarding the race issue.

:confused:

::sigh::

Rape isn't about sex, it's about power and humiliation. They were exerting their power over him and debasing him.

::sigh::

Rape isn't about sex, it's about power and humiliation. They were exerting their power over him and debasing him.

Rape is about passing your genes on to the next generalization. Don't you know anything about evolution?

Rape is about passing your genes on to the next generalization. Don't you know anything about evolution?

Boys don't pass on their genes with a PVC tube in another boys ass.

You lose.

if a 16 year old boy made advances at my 12 year old girl(not that she would be there)i would....cant say on a public forum..but i bet my son would have something to say about it as well.

12 year old girls cannot make informed decisions about sex with anyone older then their peer group,and if you believe otherwise....find some help!

First off, where the HELL did you get sex from? All I've heard consistently reported was the accusation of a kiss. (If I'm wrong and there was something obviously sexual, please disregard the rest of this section.)

Sixty year-olds kiss infants and no one finds anything wrong with that. Little kids get kissed against their will continuously by virtue of the "oh you're so cute" factor. Even when they actively resist and cry about it, no one steps up to say anything about that. That's because our society doesn't equate a kiss with sex (and with good reason).

there are exceptions to every rule(pedophiles count on that...eh?)but most 12 year old girls play at being sexy,and fantasise about older tougher guys(pedo again) but in reality,they are just beginning to discover their sexuality,and for that,they need someone who is going thru the same growing pains.

And they need someone their own age why? Subjecting hormone blinded minors to the predations of their similarly hormone blinded peers is going to lead to less exploitation? How does that make sense? If they're ready for sex, they're ready to have sex with whoever they want. If they aren't ready for sex, then they aren't ready for sex with their equally not ready peers.

simply put...i love my son more then life itself....if he laid a hand on a 12 year old when he was 16...he would be lucky to be alive or walking..period.

I rather pity your son. Many parents would stand by their children regardless of what they've done. There are parents of rapists and serial murderers who still stand by their children after they confess. Unconditional love means that you keep on loving your kids even if they do something wrong. Even if they do something horrible. Attaching a condition of good behavior to your love is going to screw your kid up a thousand times worse than any "permissive additude" ever could.

i am no prude,but people that sexualise 12 year olds have been brainwashed by all the non stop imagery shoved down their throats by the media,and i love sex and i am very open about it,i am also aware of the fact that 100 years ago 12 year olds were getting married....but then again,people died at their mid 20's

I presume that by sexualise you reffer to the provocative clothing they wear and the flirtatious behaviors they are taught to exhibit. What does that have to do with the rest?

times change....in my opinion...under 16 is off limits..period..unless of coarse you are 16.

Again, why are you making that exception? Why is it okay for kids to have sex with eachother, but only if they're the same age?

Are you worried about exploitation?

That can't be right, because that kind of relationship can be even more exploitive, since the hormones involved tend to make pubescents more prone to agression, and the generally poor social conditioning they get regarding sex leads to a greater instance of "I want" kinds of additudes among this age group than among adults.

If abbuse were what you were worried about, paradoxically enough, the solution would be to require that the person involved in their sexual relationships be more mature. (Disclaimer time: In no way am I advocating sexual relationships of this kind.)

What then is the basis for this belief that it's okay for kids to fuck as long as they're within a certain range of one another's age? I would really like to know the basis for this belief because it makes no sense to me.

sorry to all you pedo's out there,but your lack of confidence with women or men your own age doesnt float with any justifacation you can come up with to molest minors.

Does anyone actually try to use that as justification? It's an explaination for why some people do these things but a justification?

Don't get me wrong here. My post should not be read as an attempt to justify child molesters. Rather I was trying to reason why you (and others) would suggest that a person can be ready for sex, but not ready for sex with mature, responsible adults, but only be ready for sex with immature, irresponsible teenagers. It doesn't make sense to me at all.

this was not addressed to anyone here and especially to whom i responded....only to any lurkers out there hoping to find justifacation for their illness.
I don't need justification for my "illness". I am what I am. Still, this post does seem to have been addressed to me (as a pedophile/lurker) so I've responded.

Incidentally, I don't support sex involving minors (no matter how hot I find them), so don't think I'm trying to justify myself with this post.

But most would be white, Almost the same thing happen to a white guy close to where I live, Two black guy beat up a white guy and did the something to him with a baseball bat and it did not even make the newspaper. The only way I know about it is my brother was the officer in charge of the investigation. Where the two charged with a hate crime, NO, where they charged with attempted murder, NO, Did they do a long jail sentence, NOPE, they where out in a few years, but the man they victimize, had to spend years in therapy, and under go numerous surgeries. I am not racist, but the law is not fair to everyone. :upyours:

1) I'm sorry for your friend, that kind of thing is sick and terrible. The perpetraters should be punished harshly.

2) The two white kids in this instance are not being charged with a hate crime, nor are they being charged with attempted murder. Where is the part where they're getting harsher penaltys because they are white?

3) Personal anticdotes does not a valid data sample make.

4) Cat-Tribes posted an example of a black man charged with a hate crime for killing a white man. So obviously, minorities can and are charged with hate crimes against white people.


...the death penalty is too risky...

Aye, it sometimes results in death.


I say they fry the bastards

I think that I made a joke a bit back about never agreeing with Atlantian Islands or UN abassadorship, and now I agree with them both, on a single thread no less ::shock::


Simple, is it? Color me skeptical. Short of 24/7 solitary confinement or castration how would you go about preventing prison rape?

Watch them, maby? Have the guards intervine instead of just turn a blind eye? I mean, we control where they are at all times, we don't just say "o well, we can't stop prision murder," prision rape could be stopped. The guards have almost a policy of turning a blind eye. It's just the way things are done. And it shouldn't be.

Watch them, maby? Have the guards intervine instead of just turn a blind eye? I mean, we control where they are at all times, we don't just say "o well, we can't stop prision murder," prision rape could be stopped. The guards have almost a policy of turning a blind eye. It's just the way things are done. And it shouldn't be.

The guards are humans. They can't be trusted.

The guards are humans. They can't be trusted.

Indeed, but more can definatly be done. As I said, guards intervine if someone is getting shanked. So while prision rape is impossible to end completely, it is not impossible to make an attempt to vastly reduce it's occurance.

1. All crimes are hate crimes.
2. These two should meet bubba
Well not ALL crimes ... things like property law and such but yeah violent crimes I can see

And personally I would rather the government (acting as the punishing body) take care of them in a mannor befiting their crime rather then relying on someone else to do what we as a society are unwilling to do

Boys don't pass on their genes with a PVC tube in another boys ass.

You lose.

These boys are not going to pass on their genes to the next generation. Thus, their stupidity will die with them.

My theory wins.

And personally I would rather the government (acting as the punishing body) take care of them in a mannor befiting their crime rather then relying on someone else to do what we as a society are unwilling to do

:confused: You want them to meet Dick Cheney?

;)

These boys are not going to pass on their genes to the next generation. Thus, their stupidity will die with them.

My theory wins.
It is really their genes we have to worry about? What about their parents?

The one thing I find absurd about this is the "hate crime" thing.

I mean, murder in the first degree is murder in the first degree. There used to be a time when that meant something.

Nowadays, you have to tart up the charges with something politically correct in order to generate outrage.

The one thing I find absurd about this is the "hate crime" thing.

I mean, murder in the first degree is murder in the first degree. There used to be a time when that meant something.

Nowadays, you have to tart up the charges with something politically correct in order to generate outrage.
How in the hell does this have anything to do with PC?

Just because often over the top PC involves minorities does not mean all news dealing with minorities or hate crime is PC?

I know you dont like PC (nor do I) but this seems like an attempt to place blame on something that does not fit

How in the hell does this have anything to do with PC?

Just because often over the top PC involves minorities does not mean all news dealing with minorities or hate crime is PC?

I know you dont like PC (nor do I) but this seems like an attempt to place blame on something that does not fit

The whole idea of adding "hate crime" to murder is 100% political correctness.

We didn't have a problem executing murderers for murder before. And the sentence in this case is the same - the death penalty.

What, are we going to lethally inject someone once for the first degree murder, and again for the hate crime?

It boggles the mind - such a ridiculous concept.

Right now, the new black panthers are trying to make the alleged rape at Duke University into a hate crime issue.

Right now, the new black panthers are trying to make the alleged rape at Duke University into a hate crime issue.
I think the whole "hate crime" on top of other felony charges is an attempt to circumvent the concept of double jeopardy.

If you fail to convict someone of murder, you can try them on the hate crime.

There is no doubt in my mind that any concept of "hate crime" as used in the US is 100% political correctness.

This is why 'hate crime' laws draw unnecessary distinctions between crimes that are attrocious regardless of context. The intent is to cause harm, regardless of "motive", and harm is done: the crimes are really the same, you're still willfully harming another human being. Period. I don't know why that alone isn't enough reason for strong punishments.

Imho it seems to me like charging someone with a hate crime as opposed to a regular offense and punishing them more strictly in some ways contradicts and confuses the issue of justice as the law and precedence have set it up... I mean... First, as far as 'fair trial' goes, right off the bat you're characterizing someone as either horribly ignorant or deranged by charging them with a hate crime, which to me seems like it would dispose people towards conviction rather than acquittal. Second, you say 'well, you were grossly ignorant (or insane), and therefore we're going to punish you more strongly than someone who knew what he/she was doing'. Given that we tend to say that being uninformed or misinformed makes people less culpable, rather than more culpable (even though they're nonetheless guilty and in the cases of death or greivous harm are generally still punished), punishing them more strongly doesn't seem to be consistent with 'legal insanity' defences which let people off the hook for the very same thing. Are we going to be calling schitzos the perpetrators of hate crimes? I don't think people can help the way they've been educated any more than they can help having a mental derangement. They can be treated, but really... I'm not sure I really 'get' what they're trying to do with hate crime law.

Well put. Criminal law exists to punish illegal action. Motivation is irrelevant.

I'm sick and tired of these illegals coming here and stirring up trouble - I'll bet those two boys weren't any trouble at all 'til this Mexican showed up.

I'm sick and tired of these illegals coming here and stirring up trouble - I'll bet those two boys weren't any trouble at all 'til this Mexican showed up.

Of course. It's always the immigrants stirring up trouble. All legal US citizens are angels, right?

Of course. It's always the immigrants stirring up trouble. All legal US citizens are angels, right?
We're fine among our own kind, if that's what you're getting at.

I'm sick and tired of these illegals coming here and stirring up trouble - I'll bet those two boys weren't any trouble at all 'til this Mexican showed up.

Accully, the facts quotes by Cat-Tribes are quite the opposite.


We're fine among our own kind, if that's what you're getting at.


Well that's just not true at all.




sir, you need a healthy does of

A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A is A will never be anything other then A, no matter how hard you deny it, or construct fantisy worlds, or want it to be diferent. What is is. You are wrong.