NationStates Jolt Archive

Has anyone read this book? I haven't personally yet, but someone I know takes it as proof that Zheng He discovered and mapped America in 1421, and left colonies that intermarried and assimilated into the indigenous population. That's totally at odds with what I learned in world history class (i.e. it's doubtful that Zheng He even made it to Africa). Anyone who is knowledgable about the subject want to set the record straight? Or are our history books obsolete?

Has anyone read this book? I haven't personally yet, but someone I know takes it as proof that Zheng He discovered and mapped America in 1421, and left colonies that intermarried and assimilated into the indigenous population. That's totally at odds with what I learned in world history class (i.e. it's doubtful that Zheng He even made it to Africa). Anyone who is knowledgable about the subject want to set the record straight? Or are our history books obsolete?

I've heard of that book, and I think it's BS - just like the Da Vinci Code.

How curious! There's another thread talking about "The Years of Rice and Salt" which amongst other things has a what if China had made it to America?

It's possible that he did, there's a map that's supposedly a copy of an older map of America that predates Columbus' journeys. There are also what seem to be Chinese anchors found in California, but if those were regular travels or accidents, no one knows.

So, it could have happened, they had the ships and the knowledge, but there's no actual evidence that they did.

There was a documentary on that book a while back. It's bullshit basically.

Zheng He did reach Africa. There are descendants of the Chinese in some villages along the East Coast.

But he turned around and never went through the Cape. All the evidence this author was quoting was taken apart in this documentary, and in the interview with him, he had nothing to counter.

Ergo: Disregard the book.

In World Cultures we heard that there was a story of a Chinese Monk who arrived in South America. It was said to happen hundreds of years before the vikings discovered North America. That some of the ancient statues are quite asian looking and some of the other aspects of the ancient cultures of south and central america.

This is complete bullplop...BULLPLOP!! There was a similar book written that claimed Arabs made it to the New World years and years before Columbus did. It said that they also intermarried, and their were native american chiefs with arab names. This book was later proven false by historians, and i think its probably the same case with this book.

I just wikied it. So far, what I have read is inconclusive. I suspect that there is little undisputed proof one way or the other. Makes it hard to prove or refute.

Anyone who is knowledgable about the subject want to set the record straight? Or are our history books obsolete?As a guy living in northern bc, there were chinese coins from the 15th century discovered in the past. I'm not sure about it but that's what I heard. Try look it up in Wikipedia or send an e-mail to some professor at UBC.

My French teacher showed me that book. It was interesting, and I was looking through the section in the middle with all the maps. It was creepy how accurate the map for Africa was. Then again, I don't know how credible the book actually was.

I have the book. It makes a very logical and well evidenced case.

I have the book. It makes a very logical and well evidenced case.
Except that if you go and check out the evidence, the local specialists tell you that it's natural (eg "underwater ramps" in the Caribean), badly translated (eg Portugese maps allegedly from China), non-sequitur (eg Indians have genetic similarities to Asians) or wishful thinking (eg Chinese observatories in today's US cities).

How Not to (Re)Write World History: Gavin Menzies and the Chinese Discovery of America (http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/15.2/finlay.html)

Has anyone read this book? I haven't personally yet, but someone I know takes it as proof that Zheng He discovered and mapped America in 1421, and left colonies that intermarried and assimilated into the indigenous population. That's totally at odds with what I learned in world history class (i.e. it's doubtful that Zheng He even made it to Africa). Anyone who is knowledgable about the subject want to set the record straight? Or are our history books obsolete?

i loved this book! you should read it its very interesting. they have found quite a lot of substantil evidence that the voyages were made, you should cheack out the web site and read the book :)

Except that if you go and check out the evidence, the local specialists tell you that it's natural (eg "underwater ramps" in the Caribean), badly translated (eg Portugese maps allegedly from China), non-sequitur (eg Indians have genetic similarities to Asians) or wishful thinking (eg Chinese observatories in today's US cities).
I remember seeing part of the docu. He claimed some islands in the carribean were on the Chinese map. It was pointed out that the islands in questions looked nothing like the map-drawn ones, which he first tried to counter by saying they were drawn at a different angle. So instead of facing up, it was facing left.
When the interviewer pointed out that even if we accepted that the Chinese cartographers decided to draw the islands at different angles and sizes to what they actually are, they're also in the wrong place in relation to each other.
The guy had no answer to this.

Sounds like BS of someone desperately fitting the facts to agree with his already decided on premise and ignoring the ones which contradict him.

Except that if you go and check out the evidence, the local specialists tell you that it's natural (eg "underwater ramps" in the Caribean), badly translated (eg Portugese maps allegedly from China), non-sequitur (eg Indians have genetic similarities to Asians) or wishful thinking (eg Chinese observatories in today's US cities).

How Not to (Re)Write World History: Gavin Menzies and the Chinese Discovery of America (http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/15.2/finlay.html)

Wow, I read all that link. One word for the author of 1421 - Owned.

Can anybody tell me when did the Vikings discovered Newfoundland?

Wow, I read all that link. One word for the author of 1421 - Owned.second. :p

I have read many books and watched a few documentaries on New world travellers. However the Chinese anchor evidence is sketchy to me. I wouldn't doubt that the Chinese could have made it. Polynesians made it to Hawaii with small boats. Wouldn't be a stretch to assume the Chinese could have made it in there grand fleet. I think the most reliable evidence would be in genetic testing of remains of pre-columbian natives. I also find it interesting that the Aztec gods are very simular to the Chinese ones. Maybe a coincidence? Not sure either way.

Can anybody tell me when did the Vikings discovered Newfoundland?

roughly the year 1000/1

L'Anse aux Meadows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Anse_aux_Meadows)

Here's an interesting article from the book, Chasing Their Dreams, written by Lily Chow:

*56k modems should able to load these images

Article:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5924/pic16wz.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8598/pic25ju.jpg

Source:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2325/pic35wh.jpg

Btw, my scanner sucks.

roughly the year 1000/1

L'Anse aux Meadows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Anse_aux_Meadows)thanks :)

It'd hardly be earth-shattering if that was the truth. The Chinese were a advanced sea-going civilization at the time. However, there was no follow-up colonization because the Ming court was more corrupt than a hard drive thrown into the fire.

It'd hardly be earth-shattering if that was the truth. The Chinese were a advanced sea-going civilization at the time. However, there was no follow-up colonization because the Ming court was more corrupt than a hard drive thrown into the fire.

Apparently, according to the book (don't quote me on this, because I'm recalling form memory), the emperor ordered the burning of all the documents of the exploration because the lightening struck his palace. He saw it as a sign from "God" telling him the explorations were wrong.

I've got a book by Menzies called 1421: The Year China Discovered the World. Maybe 'World' was changed to 'America' in the US edition? ;)

Anyway, I haven't got round to reading it yet. I keep buying books, and I've got literally dozens I haven't had time to read yet.

Even if the chinese did reach america in 1421, so what? The Vikings did it hundreds of years before that and I've even heard it claimed that some bronze age people managed to cross the atlantic and reach it. Not to mention the fact that the original native americans must have crossed over the ice bridge from russia to alaska which is close to hacing come from china in the first place anyway.

I've even heard it claimed that some bronze age people managed to cross the atlantic and reach it.

Yes, I've heard that too. Saw a documentary in which a group of American archeologists were claiming that the very first Americans came from (south-western) France.

If it's found to be true, I'd just love to see the reaction of a few brain-dead French-haters in the US. Would they start hating themselves? :D

The question isn't whether or not China reached America; it's whether it mattered at all.

Since they didn't make any lasting impact on the region, this reporter says "no."

I watched a documentary on when the Viking's went to North America then soon left due to getting their ass whooped by the Natives.

what's so sillly about all this 'who discouvered 'america'' crap is that isn't it kind of obvious, that since there were people who had already been living there for arround ten THOUSAND years give or take a few thousand more, that if anyone had FIRST DISCOUVERED it, wouldn't it HAVE to be they, who were ALREADY LIVING THERE?

why are so many still trying to deny that the hundreds of soverign tribal nations, there were several, at least a dozen, possibly more, as if not more, 'civilized' then themselves?

why other then blatantly fanatical chauvanixm?

indiginous native americans discouvered 'america'
TEN THOUSAND years BEFORE ANYONE else
so whoever 'discouvered it (again) first' a mere few
hundred years ago don't make a pile of fettid dingo's kidneys

=^^=
.../\...

I watched a documentary on when the Viking's went to North America then soon left due to getting their ass whooped by the Natives.

I saw one where they stayed for a few years, and left when there wasnt enough food to have a decent life. I dont think they had much contact with the natives.

what's so sillly about all this 'who discouvered 'america'' crap is that isn't it kind of obvious, that since there were people who had already been living there for arround ten THOUSAND years give or take a few thousand more, that if anyone had FIRST DISCOUVERED it, wouldn't it HAVE to be they, who were ALREADY LIVING THERE?

why are so many still trying to deny that the hundreds of soverign tribal nations, there were several, at least a dozen, possibly more, as if not more, 'civilized' then themselves?

why other then blatantly fanatical chauvanixm?

indiginous native americans discouvered 'america'
TEN THOUSAND years BEFORE ANYONE else
so whoever 'discouvered it (again) first' a mere few
hundred years ago don't make a pile of fettid dingo's kidneys

=^^=
.../\...

Yeah it matters. Usually the first one to discover a new place would open up trading or colonisation with it, like Columbus and I think the Vikings did to a much smaller extent.

Yes, I've heard that too. Saw a documentary in which a group of American archeologists were claiming that the very first Americans came from (south-western) France.

If it's found to be true, I'd just love to see the reaction of a few brain-dead French-haters in the US. Would they start hating themselves? :D

Solutreans, no?

Even if the chinese did reach america in 1421, so what? The Vikings did it hundreds of years before that and I've even heard it claimed that some bronze age people managed to cross the atlantic and reach it. Not to mention the fact that the original native americans must have crossed over the ice bridge from russia to alaska which is close to hacing come from china in the first place anyway.
Early Africans have a better claim than this guy when it comes to making it to the new world. The olmec heads look quite negroid... I've never heard of some strange, out of place asian looking sculptures in the Americas.

I watched a documentary on when the Viking's went to North America then soon left due to getting their ass whooped by the Natives.

What happened to the Vikings is entirely supposition.

What this thread does illustrate is that there is a great difference between knowing of a place, visiting a place, and with settling.

I know of Alpha Centuri, I have visited right round the world, but I still live in England.

Can anybody tell me when did the Vikings discovered Newfoundland?

I don't know the exact date but it was probably before 1066 as the Vikings power/exploration/raiding was declining after that.

It is reasonably well known that the Chinese did for a brief period do navel exploration before a new empoerer decided that the Chinese had no need to go beyound China as everywhere else was barbarians and so ordered the scrapping of the navy. However people don't believe they got much further than the east cost of africa.

There is a viking saga of Erik the Red where the viking Leif Eriksson (Erik's son) on his way from Iceland to Greenland finds North America (by accident). I think it's from around 985, but I don't remember exactly. His boat was blown of course. I think this is supposed to be the first known European to 'discover' the Americas.

EDIT: Seems like it was more around 1000 according to Wikipedia. http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Eriksson

indiginous native americans discouvered 'america'
TEN THOUSAND years BEFORE ANYONE else
so whoever 'discouvered it (again) first' a mere few
hundred years ago don't make a pile of fettid dingo's kidneys

Yeah, but where did they come from? And were they aware they were discovering a new land?

I wonder when my people will finally get the recognition for 'discovering the Americas'? We were here tens of thousands of years before Columus after all...

Yeah, but where did they come from? And were they aware they were discovering a new land?
Damn, someone beat me to it...but I'll ask you this:

What is 'new land'?

what's so sillly about all this 'who discouvered 'america'' crap is that isn't it kind of obvious, that since there were people who had already been living there for arround ten THOUSAND years give or take a few thousand more, that if anyone had FIRST DISCOUVERED it, wouldn't it HAVE to be they, who were ALREADY LIVING THERE?

why are so many still trying to deny that the hundreds of soverign tribal nations, there were several, at least a dozen, possibly more, as if not more, 'civilized' then themselves?

why other then blatantly fanatical chauvanixm?

indiginous native americans discouvered 'america'
TEN THOUSAND years BEFORE ANYONE else
so whoever 'discouvered it (again) first' a mere few
hundred years ago don't make a pile of fettid dingo's kidneys

=^^=
.../\...
Everyone knows that; this thread is about whether or not the Chinese made it here in 1421. And of course it is significant, because it happened (if it happened): it is history.

Yeah it matters. Usually the first one to discover a new place would open up trading or colonisation with it, like Columbus and I think the Vikings did to a much smaller extent.
So in order to 'be discovered', a place must first be inhabited?

I thought that the Native Americans shared the DNA of Icelandic people? My memory of the programme from which I received this information, is somewhat distorted.

Damn, someone beat me to it...but I'll ask you this:

What is 'new land'?
One a volcano just made? :D
Land that they, as a group, didn't know existed. The Europeans didn't know America existed, so for them it was new land. For the first Americans it would have been new land too, but did they really care?

I thought that the Native Americans shared the DNA of Icelandic people? My memory of the programme from which I received this information, is somewhat distorted.
There are various theories, all of which claim to be absolutely true, that places us as having asian DNA, etc etc. DNA doesn't define a people or their culture, and is only of limited use when trying to understand how humans spread over the globe.

One a volcano just made? :D
Land that they, as a group, didn't know existed. The Europeans didn't know America existed, so for them it was new land. For the first Americans it would have been new land too, but did they really care?
Well honestly, I had no idea that many places existed until I came upon them. Did I discover them? If I've never heard of a place called Walywallywoohoo, and one day I happen to drive through it...will I be noted as the discoverer of said place?

There are various theories, all of which claim to be absolutely true, that places us as having asian DNA, etc etc. DNA doesn't define a people or their culture, and is only of limited use when trying to understand how humans spread over the globe.

It seemed a little...contrived. Saying they crossed the Atlantic ocean in leather-hulled rowing boats etc.

It seemed a little...contrived. Saying they crossed the Atlantic ocean in leather-hulled rowing boats etc.
Just as some people will claim to know why the dinosaurs died out, others will claim to know how people first came to the Americas. The fact is, no one knows for sure.

Well honestly, I had no idea that many places existed until I came upon them. Did I discover them?
I said "as a group." Are you a group (not counting bacteria, parasites, viruses, and voices inside your head)? And if you had gone to a library and consulted an Atlas or past issues of the National Geographic you would have seen that somebody else, whose knowledge you could conceivably access, had already been there.

Of course, America has been discovered and rediscovered. Probably will be discovered again by aliens.

I've read half of this book before being bored and putting it down. Most of his "evidence" appears to come from a knowledge of sea currents and extrapolating what he thinks are the likely voyages of the great fleets. He gives no convincing arguments I'm afraid. That's not to say the Chinese didn't stumble upon america now and again. It isn't that far to the Aleutian Islands and Alaska. No evidence of it though as far as I know.

In all this chatter about Europeans who made it to America before Columbus, no one has mentioned the Scots. Apparently some bloke called Sinclair (of the Roslyn Sinclairs) made it there with a bunch of blokes from Orkney. Need to check this out further.

I wonder when my people will finally get the recognition for 'discovering the Americas'? We were here tens of thousands of years before Columus after all...


Well you are painting a big brush are you not? Your people? Do you mean your tribe or every native American in North and South America? Because Africans did land in South and Central America. DNA markers in the native population point in that direction. As well as there was not just one migration into the Americas. There were several distinct migrations as I have read many times. So would seem to me that there is no definitive proof of any one culture being the first here. There is guesses but that is all they are. Seems to me when they find an answer another dig finds a different one. Also the original people that first came here came from somewhere else. I would presume from the Asian and African continents. So who is who's people? I take everyone and simply group it into one. After all humanity is the same thing.

Of course, America has been discovered and rediscovered. Probably will be discovered again by aliens.

Do illegal aliens count?

Damn, someone beat me to it...but I'll ask you this:

What is 'new land'?

The natives that the first explorers brought to Europe came back to America with tails of a new land too. I think that would be obvious answer to your question.

Urmm didn't Lief Erikkson "find" America in the 10th or so century?

The natives that the first explorers brought to Europe came back to America with tails of a new land too. I think that would be obvious answer to your question.
Woohoo! WE DISCOVERED EUROPE!!!

Well you are painting a big brush are you not? Your people? Do you mean your tribe or every native American in North and South America?
No, just us, just the Cree:D

Henry Sinclair of Rosslyn, Scotland did make it to Nova Scotia 100 years before Columbus toddled across (allegedly). Of course there were millions of folk there already which kind of knocks the " we discovered the place" thing on the head but .... "hooray for us" anyway :) .

No, just us, just the Cree:D

I don't think that an answer would ever be found honestly. From the information that I have read on this subject. Which is alot. I see many changes in the landscape of people all through the America's. Competing tribes move back and forth like currents. It is difficult to figure out who got where first.

Also I personally think civilization goes alot farther back than what we know of. I am one of those that believe in the proto civilization. Basically the idea that we were advanced to a degree and slid back into a hole. I think that there was trade and an exchange of people and ideas that did go on throughout the world. That although has been lost over time and people seperated due to war, famine, disease and such. It may be that it wasn't the so called bering land bridge that brought the first people to the America's. I would almost be it was a series of migrations from Africa, Europe and as can be seen in the native populations Asians. In my opinion most of it came via Alaska water route, Greenland route and the Brazil-Central Africa route. These are the shortest open water routes there are. Easily traversed by small boats.

I've heard that Irish monks crossed the Atlantic in wee little currachs. I vaguely remember somebody trying to replicate the journey(i.e. cross the Atlantic in a currach)

I have not yet completed reading it but it is currently my bedside book. However I will say that with what I have read so far the author makes some very compelling arguments.

When you look at the maps that have been authenticated from that era and examine the evidence that the author lays out you can certainly see the possibility....

However I think the whole point is moot as how can someone discover a place where people allready live?

Hey George, I just discovered your back yard and I claim it for the kingdom of Knuckledragger, now get out of my pool ;)

I saw one where they stayed for a few years, and left when there wasnt enough food to have a decent life. I dont think they had much contact with the natives.

One theory is that when the colonies on Greenland no longer were sustainable because the climate was cooling, the Norse in Newfoundland also packed up and left. With no relay stations on Greenland, they would have been too far from Europe for any sort of contact. They'd be trapped.

Anyway, the important thing isn't whether or not your ancestors were the first to discover the Americas. It's whether or not they discovered it before Colombus;)

I have not yet completed reading it but it is currently my bedside book. However I will say that with what I have read so far the author makes some very compelling arguments.

When you look at the maps that have been authenticated from that era and examine the evidence that the author lays out you can certainly see the possibility....

However I think the whole point is moot as how can someone discover a place where people allready live?

Hey George, I just discovered your back yard and I claim it for the kingdom of Knuckledragger, now get out of my pool ;)


I think alot of the problem of European contact of land is the idea of owning land was not in most Natives idealogy. This is where Europeans really exploited. I can tell you if a Native group were to come to Europe in 1492 and set up shop they would have been seen as invaders and driven out.

Anyway, the important thing isn't whether or not your ancestors were the first to discover the Americas. It's whether or not they discovered it before Colombus;)

Although you do know that Columbus did not discover the "America's". He discovered Caribbean islands. He never actually laid eyes on the mainland. Something that I was not taught in school....

Although you do know that Columbus did not discover the "America's". He discovered Caribbean islands. He never actually laid eyes on the mainland. Something that I was not taught in school....

Whose Carribean islands did you say he discovered?

Whose Carribean islands did you say he discovered?

I clearly stated he discovered the Caribbean islands. Those of course belonged to the Tainino and the Caribs. PS If I mispelled tribal names than :(

Easily traversed by small boats.

Except for the big f'n waves!

Except for the big f'n waves!

A small boat considerig todays standards. I also know that the sucess rate probably wasn't high. Although some did make it.

There is a viking saga of Erik the Red where the viking Leif Eriksson (Erik's son) on his way from Iceland to Greenland finds North America (by accident). I think it's from around 985, but I don't remember exactly. His boat was blown of course. I think this is supposed to be the first known European to 'discover' the Americas.

EDIT: Seems like it was more around 1000 according to Wikipedia. http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Eriksson

Except that Lief Eriksson had heard of "land to the west of Greenland" (North America) before he had even laid eyes upon it. He had heard this from other Vikings who had been blown off course. Odds are that at least a few Viking ships wound up accidentally 'discovering' America (when their ships were smashed to pieces against the shore line) well before Lief did.

Although you do know that Columbus did not discover the "America's". He discovered Caribbean islands. He never actually laid eyes on the mainland. Something that I was not taught in school....
Actually he did lay eyes on the mainland...

Route of the third voyage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Columbus3.PNG

Route of the fourth voyage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Columbus4.PNG

I've got a book by Menzies called 1421: The Year China Discovered the World. Maybe 'World' was changed to 'America' in the US edition? ;)

Anyway, I haven't got round to reading it yet. I keep buying books, and I've got literally dozens I haven't had time to read yet.
For Americans, America = the World.