NationStates Jolt Archive

Poll, i say innocent

i dont know what to think about it...

Who? And there are juries, I assume.

Poll, i say innocent

I say innocent until proven guilty.

But I also say you are not a juror and your opinion is worthless. One has to hear the evidence before one reaches a verdict.

The media isn't too forthcoming with "facts". All there is that I have read is a bunch of she-said /they-said crap. I am reserving comment and judgement until I see some actual evidence provided.

Hmm I thought I heard two of them turned themselves in.

I say innocent until proven guilty.

But I also say you are not a juror and your opinion is worthless. One has to hear the evidence before one reaches a verdict.
wow innocent until proven guilty wat an opinion... but hey i asked...i say your opinion that my opinion is worthless is worthless
;) *how bout that for an immature comeback??*

Hmm I thought I heard two of them turned themselves in.
naaa they both got arrested

They should fill the jury with LSU basketball players or George Washington players

Yeah, um, I voted for all the options.. guess I'm neuteral.

They should fill the jury with LSU basketball players or George Washington players

they would go for the death penalty i think...

naaa they both got arrested
Ahh alright...heh haven't been paying too much attention to it.

They should fill the jury with LSU basketball players or George Washington players
no this is how the jusy should be:
3 North Carolina players
3 NC State players
2 Wake Forest players
1 Georgia Tech player
1 Clemson player

Poll, i say innocent

Why not let the law decide? I doubt it will go to trial though.

Poll, i say innocent
Probably guilty of some kind of abuse. Doesn't have to necessarily be rape.

I think that deep down inside we all know what happened at that house: A bunch of drunk, preppy rich white kids who've always had things their way decided to have a little fun with a stripper.

The media isn't too forthcoming with "facts". All there is that I have read is a bunch of she-said /they-said crap. I am reserving comment and judgement until I see some actual evidence provided.

You are right. The media doesn't have the facts. They seldom do. :(

The DNA evidence seems to imply that they're innocent, but something bad was going on at that party. I think that there will not be enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guilty, but I have no idea if they actually raped the woman.

The DNA evidence seems to imply that they're innocent, but something bad was going on at that party. I think that there will not be enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guilty, but I have no idea if they actually raped the woman.
They are guilty of being drunk rich white fratboys who hired a black stripper - somthing that makes them excellent media targets, and to hell with inconvenient facts like DNA.

Lynch Them! :rolleyes:

Innocent. No DNA evidence, a shitfaced-drunk stripper with a history of making similar dubious accusations, and no witnesses add up to innocence. A GJ will indict anyone for anything; they're only presented the defense's case.

They are guilty of being drunk rich white fratboys who hired a black stripper - somthing that makes them excellent media targets, and to hell with inconvenient facts like DNA.

Lynch Them! :rolleyes:Syniks, I can tell you directly that's not the question. Otherwise, we'd see a lot more cases roll out of Durham.

Duke is something of a party school, has a mostly white student body, the vast majority of whom belong to one or another fraternal organization, and Durham has a large black population, after all.

Some reading... you might look at the Durham paper, which is (of course) covering things from a rather closer perspective than the national news:
http://www.heraldsun.com/durham%5C4-728348.html
http://www.heraldsun.com/durham%5C4-728341.html
http://www.heraldsun.com/opinion%5Ccolumnists%5Cguests%5C68-727278.html

Poll, i say innocent
Bit early to tell, huh? I mean, don't wait for the trial or evidence or anything--just jump on out there and make a call. :rolleyes:

They are guilty of being drunk rich white fratboys who hired a black stripper - somthing that makes them excellent media targets, and to hell with inconvenient facts like DNA.

Lynch Them! :rolleyes:


I have no idea if they raped them, or did anything illegal besides underage drinking, but I would say something bad was happening either way. But that just means that I wouldn't hang around with that crowd. If they need to be punished, I'll let courts deal with it. And most media I've seen have presented both sides, or else I wouldn't know about the lack of dna evidence.

Well Duke university seems to be in full CYA mode so perhaps they know something we don't?

Innocent, except I know that one of them is also in court for abuse in... Washington, DC? Perhaps he is guilty in that case, but the DNA evidence says that the stripper is the one lying in the big case.

Well Duke university seems to be in full CYA mode so perhaps they know something we don't?
The FIRST response of a university is to go into CYA mode, regardless of who gets hurt (unless it's a Tenured Prof).

I don't see how they can find a non-prejudicial trial venue for the "accused". They've been well and righteously fucked by the media (especially untill the DNA report came out) and the Establishment Racists like Jesse Jackson.

Innocent until proven a Lead Story. :headbang:

The FIRST response of a university is to go into CYA mode, regardless of who gets hurt (unless it's a Tenured Prof).

I don't see how they can find a non-prejudicial trial venue for the "accused". They've been well and righteously fucked by the media (especially untill the DNA report came out) and the Establishment Racists like Jesse Jackson.

Innocent until proven a Lead Story. :headbang:

It is unfortunate, the way the media grabs on stories like this. Still, the two boys are white and rich. That makes alot of difference especially when their expensive attorneys get going and attack the defendants character. "My God, she's a stripper!" I'm sure they will be fine.

I'd feel sorry for the rest of the team, their entire season cancelled because of an accusation against a few players. Obviously the Duke people are spineless when a TV camera makes an appearance.

i think they are innocent, but that is not saying that they are. but the thing thats getting on my nerves is making it a black white thing, the girl is a stripper, that may or may not been raped, if she was they should fry, but if she is just trying to get money then she should get in trouble. The black community and Jesse Jackson just want to make it a black thing

It is unfortunate, the way the media grabs on stories like this. Still, the two boys are white and rich. That makes alot of difference especially when their expensive attorneys get going and attack the defendants character. "My God, she's a stripper!" Actually, it's more like "My God, she has a record of Felony Flight and Assaulting a Police Officer?!?!"... Nobody really cares if she is/was an exotic dancer. I'm sure they will be fine. I hope they get Justice - one way or the other. If they are exonorated, she should go to jail for yet another assault on the credibility of women who report actual rapes. That's what really pisses me off about cases like this. That, and the Attorneys who will drag it out as long as necessary/possible to bleed Daddy Rich Pants. Fie on the whole lot.
I'd feel sorry for the rest of the team, their entire season cancelled because of an accusation against a few players. Obviously the Duke people are spineless when a TV camera makes an appearance. Agreed, though the Duke Lacrosse team has had "issues" anyway... (somthing that made them a really easy target...)

Well Duke university seems to be in full CYA mode so perhaps they know something we don't?

what does CYA mean

what does CYA mean
Please tell me that, despite your alias, you are not Usian (Or English). :headbang:

Edit: (If you can't tell, this is an old, old, old coloquialisim among English speakers)

Cover
Your
Arse

Actually, it's more like "My God, she has a record of Felony Flight and Assaulting a Police Officer?!?!"... Nobody really cares if she is/was an exotic dancer.

True, still I don't know how liberal the jury will be in the trial. We can't all be Geraldo Rivera:

"It's not just the nuns that get raped, sometimes strippers get raped too."

Words of wisdom people. :rolleyes:

True, still I don't know how liberal the jury will be in the trial. We can't all be Geraldo Rivera:
The Jury won't be Liberal (knee jerk support of anything Jesse Jackson puts his nose into), nor will it be Conservative (OMG Strippers!?!?)

It will be typically a USian jury. That is, to avoid prejudicial information, drawn from the least informed, least intelligent non-civically-involved, jobless schlubs the attornies can voidier.

Jury of your peers. :rolleyes: Peh. :headbang:

i think they are innocent, but that is not saying that they are. but the thing thats getting on my nerves is making it a black white thing, the girl is a stripper, that may or may not been raped, if she was they should fry, but if she is just trying to get money then she should get in trouble. The black community and Jesse Jackson just want to make it a black thingShe's not going to be getting money even if she wins, IIRC. This is a criminal case, not a civil suit.

The Jury won't be Liberal (knee jerk support of anything Jesse Jackson puts his nose into), nor will it be Conservative (OMG Strippers!?!?)

It will be typically a USian jury. That is, to avoid prejudicial information, drawn from the least informed, least intelligent non-civically-involved, jobless schlubs the attornies can voidier.

Jury of your peers. :rolleyes: Peh. :headbang:

Given how easy it is to get out of jury duty I suppose the only people left would be those too stupid to get off or those who desire to get their 15 minutes by being on a jury in a big trial. Either way it is bad. I understand most jurers only get like $30 dollars a day (or less) anyway so it isn't as if people want to spend their time stuck on one anyway.

She's not going to be getting money even if she wins, IIRC. This is a criminal case, not a civil suit.

I'm sure if she could find a way to sue Duke then she will. Or she could go after the kids involved, their daddys are all rich so she could do well, especially since juries in civil trials are often really stupid.

She's not going to be getting money even if she wins, IIRC. This is a criminal case, not a civil suit.
Yet. Just wait. Double Jeproady doesn't apply to civil cases. Daddy Big Buck could see his son exonerated but still have to pay civil "damages" because some idiot jury thinks (A) she deserves the money and (B) the rich folks don't.

I have worked as a detective, and been trained specifically in sexual assault investigation, so I have some occupational experience, training, etc. in this area. With that out of the way...

I absolutely agree with Alan Dershowitz, that rape is underreported (a smaller %age of reported rapes are reported to police vs. most other violent felonies) *and* a higher percentage of rape allegations are false than most other crimes. Also, it's more complex than that. If somebody is making a false burglary report (usually for insurance purposes), it doesn't involve "fingering" a suspect in the vast majority of cases. However, when false rape allegations are made, usually a suspect is identified. This makes the false allegation much more injurious. The former just makes our insurance more expensive. The latter puts innocent people in prison, and also demeans REAL rape victims and makes REAL rape victims less likely to be believed. There are a whole set of rape cases that are arguable, not from a "is she lying" perspective, but more from a "perspective perspective". In other words, was it consensual, forceful, or without consent. The former would not be rape, the middle would be, and in most jurisdiction the latter is rape.

Any investigator, who is good and honest, will ALWAYS consider that ANYBODY could be lying - rape victim, suspect, witness, etc. The DA in this case is not acting like a DA should act. He is grandstanding, attempting to try this case in the media, etc., which is not surprising considering that DA's are elected politicians.

An ER nurse, etc. saying that a physical exam is CONSISTENT with rape is hardly definitive evidence of any sort. However, if she claimed, for example, that she was sodomized, and there was no evidence of that, that would be an obvious huge red flag, since by the very nature of the tissues there (not trying to get too graphic), you are going to have evidence of injury - even in consensual sex of that nature. Also, the victim's past criminal acts ARE relevant if they are crimes of dishonesty, as would be the witnesses e.g. Embezzlement, as would be level of intoxication, etc. The racial statements allegedly made by the lacrosse players are interesting because 1) they show the lacrosse players to be spoiled, vulgar boors to some extent (I am speaking of the ones that were making the belittling comment) but 2) also because they would help explain motivation as to the theory of WHY the accuser might make a false allegation of rape, but also as evidence of why the accused might be the type of person to dehumanize the victim and commit the rape. a two edged sword.

On the subject of DNA, it is highly unlikely in a case like this that no suspect DNA would be found on the victim. It does not mean it didn't happen, but it is strongly exculpatory. That's just reality. The statements of the DA was that he was just darn certain this stuff would prove his case. oops.

On a psychological note, i think the issue of cognitive dissonance is very important. prosecutors (and defense attorneys for that matter) are advocates for a "side". While prosecutors are supposed to be impartial in reviewing a case, in my experience, once a prosecutor "buys" a case theory, it is psychologically (as well as politically and vocationally) painful for them to concede the fact that ooppss... they may have been wrong. They are human, after all. And that's aside from the political nature of DA's in general, and this DA in particular. I've spewed plenty, so I'll shut up now



Taken from a comment on feministing.com

I tend to agree.

Guilty of rape: Hard to say. As much of a card-carrying Duke-hater as I am in many facets, I won't say they are guilty here.

Guilty of some sort of sexual misconduct: Possible. Not going to say they did anything, but it seems more plausible than all-out rape.

Guilty of some kind of misconduct: Far more likely. Assault, maybe. Lewd behavior, sure.

Guilty of stupidity: Absolutely. Every last one of them. It's too damn bad they can't be charged with blatant stupidity in this case. That should at least warrant community service and some common sense classes.

These boys aren't going to prison. Any competant lawyer can prove their innocence. Hell, there's no DNA, and one of the guys is on camera elsewhere 2 minutes after the alleged brutal rape.

Innocent until proven guilty, doesn't fly.

The email from one of the lacrosse players that night, sure as hell doesnt look good. But the time it was mailed doesn't fit. The accuser becoming very inebriated within a short time doesn't add up. She supposibly was offered a drink sometime during her time there. That sends a signal to me, that something was put in her drink, plus the security guard didn't smell any alcohol on her but she did on the driver. So if she smelled it on the driver she would have smelled it on her too, if she was drunk. I'm aware that she could have taken something on her own. But .. I dunno about that.



Ok, now my rant.

Why not let the evidence decide? Sadly the media convicts first. DNA swabs from 43 players, blood from 3 of the captains. Then that DNA comes back to show no connection, they still indicte two students. Nifong(DA) has been running off at the mouth saying that he believes they are guilty. Not to mention the inconsistant statements by the accuser and the chic with her, or the police records, or the ATM reciepts and taxi drivers records showing one of the indicted boys to have been picked up by him during the supposed time of attack/rape and was in the freakin taxi at a local Cook Out restaurant, still, during the time the accuser said she was being raped. Or the fact they have pictures of her when she arrived at the party showing bruises on her legs and thighs, and fake fingernails broken off/missing. Or the fact that pink splotches were found on a wrought iron railing on the back porch near where she was photographed on her left side, sleeping or passed out, indicating she had recently been applying nail polish during the gap of time when no photos were taken. In the bathroom perhaps? Or the fact that in the police line up they had no one outside the lacrosse team in the line up, so matter who she pointed at, it was going to be a Duke lacrosse player. Or the fact that the accusers fellow Bunny Hole escorts employee that accompanied her that night first doubted the story of her being raped, but then later sent an email to a firm that has represented the likes of P Diddy and other hip hop artists who specialize in crises communication, asking how she can "spin this to her advantage". But do not represent her. Or the fact that a security guard in a Kroger parking lot, farther away from where the alleged attack happened than the police dept. and hospital, was approached by the driver and lied to about how the accuser had come to be in her car. Not mentioning anything about any type of attack, but said she was driving down the road and heard racial slurs being yelled at a woman she had never met before, so she picked her up. Pictures proved she was with the alleged victim at the party, performing. Maybe that chic accompanying the allaged victim is just a sorry pos, only thinking of herself. I dunno.

There is so much BS in this, it's ridiculous. And Jesse Jackson said no matter what turns out he's still gonna give her some money. Oh please. So if it turns out she freakin lied, caused all this turmoil, she gets rewarded? Whatever man. His money to do with as he damn well pleases, but what message would that send? It's not like he is unaware of college students, single mothers etc working as escorts. No matter the outcome the guys and Duke will forever be scarred by this shit. If the guys are guilty, they deserve serious punishment and the reputation scarring, Duke however does not, but can't do anything about that. If they are innocent .. well tough shit, they will still carry this stain forever, and what will happen to the false accuser? Maybe a playboy centerfold or a layout in some sleazy ass smut magazine, if she's half attractive enough, and gets her college paid fo by Jesse Jackson.

And whichever little bastard that was that went out to the car and talked these dancers into coming back into the house (when they were going to leave shortly after they arrived because there was some disagreement about money when some of the Duke players stated that they wanted their money back when they saw the dancers were not what they had asked for from the Bunny Hole) deserves a serious ass beating.

"Duke Lacrosse: Guilty or not?"

Innocent ... until proven guilty in a court of law.

"Duke Lacrosse: Guilty or not?"

Innocent ... until proven guilty in a court of law.


Amen.

Let our courts do their thing, eh?

The FIRST response of a university is to go into CYA mode, regardless of who gets hurt (unless it's a Tenured Prof).

I don't see how they can find a non-prejudicial trial venue for the "accused". They've been well and righteously fucked by the media (especially untill the DNA report came out) and the Establishment Racists like Jesse Jackson.

Innocent until proven a Lead Story. :headbang:

Indeed. They would have to move it to even come close. Sure as hell not gonna find one in Durham.

Innocent, the woman changed her story at least once, there were very desperate attempts by the prosecution to garner any and all possible evidence, of which they have apparently found none. No DNA match at all, no real witnesses and airtight alibis for at least two of the defendants.

The only "witness" the prosecution has is a woman who only recently changed her entire story, but only after contacting a publicity agency so she could determine "how to profit" from the whole thing.

well, new information just came to light. CNN is reporting that the accuser had filed a report of being raped about 10 years ago. so this will change the opinions of the case...

well, new information just came to light. CNN is reporting that the accuser had filed a report of being raped about 10 years ago. so this will change the opinions of the case...
"Filed a Report" or "Filed a False Report" ?

Makes a difference.

Innocent. No DNA evidence, a shitfaced-drunk stripper with a history of making similar dubious accusations, and no witnesses add up to innocence. A GJ will indict anyone for anything; they're only presented the defense's case.
hear hear

If the defense attorneys weren't lying out their ass when they said this:

"Defense attorneys have said time-stamped photos taken the night of the party show that the alleged victim was injured and impaired before she arrived."

Than yes, they're innocent. I also don't know why they would lie about it since it certainly wouldn't help them.

There are two kinds of paid strippers who come to parties.

A. Sane ones who bring bodyguards, as in half bachelor parties I've been to.

B. Straight up whores, as in the other half.

My guess is that a jock party would have even more energy and more danger.

A pro would know that and come prepared.

As a guess I'd say she's a common whore who got shorted or believes she was.

Either way she picked the wrong guys to blame it on.

It's impossible to say without being able to review all of the evidence.

i dunno what yer cha'in' abowt.

Guilty.

And they should be hung by their necks 'til their hearts stop tickin'.

Innocent.

If only the stripper got an education this would have never happened. :rolleyes:

Innocent.

If only the stripper got an education this would have never happened. :rolleyes:

Of course.

The woman is obviously a lying ****** bitch. She deserved it. :rolleyes:

Of course.

The woman is obviously a lying ****** bitch. She deserved it. :rolleyes:

The lacross players were clearly privelidged white males. they're rapists.

The lacross players were clearly privelidged white males. they're rapists.

But worst of all, they're JOCKS!

Guilty.

And they should be hung by their necks 'til their hearts stop tickin'.

Despite the fact that theres next to no evidence that the rape occured by those boys, or at all and that theres plenty of evidence against the boys raping her, they should be hung by their necks.

Despite the fact that theres next to no evidence that the rape occured by those boys, or at all and that theres plenty of evidence against the boys raping her, they should be hung by their necks.

It's anti-honor killing.

Rather than murdering the woman for being raped, we murder the rapists instead. Makes sense, no?

It's anti-honor killing.

Rather than murdering the woman for being raped, we murder the rapists instead. Makes sense, no?

Killing people that

a) haven't been convicted of rape
b) have plenty of evidence showing they didn't rape her
and c) voluntarily allowed full dna samples to be given

totally makes sense.

Killing people that

a) haven't been convicted of rape

Because the trial hasn't happened.

b) have plenty of evidence showing they didn't rape her

Thanks to armies of lawyers. (And I have seen one piece of evidence exonerating one member of the lacrosse team. ONE.)

and c) voluntarily allowed full dna samples to be given

totally makes sense.

Yeah. Because it's always voluntary when it's pushed by the government and the school. It's like those guys in Gitmo. They wanted to go there. It was voluntary. :rolleyes: