NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, is it?

It is electircity yes? It can be collected or driven to a certain point? Yes, as proven by those spiky thingys on building (sorry can't remember the name) and so they could go into batteries somehow?:confused:

If so...:)

If it was that easy, you'd think we'd be using it a lot already.

Lightning is high-power, but low-energy. And it is unpredictable and intermittent.

I imagine that it's too random to be a serious alternative power source.

A single lightning strike releases several times less energy than is released by burning one litre of petrol. It has a power of up to a few gigawatts, but because it lasts a fraction of a millisecond, the energy content is pathetic.

It's called a lightning rod.

Others have already pointed out why "lightning batteries" won't work.

A single lightning strike releases several times less energy than is released by burning one litre of petrol. It has a power of up to a few gigawatts, but because it lasts a fraction of a millisecond, the energy content is pathetic.

1.21 gigawatts, I believe.

Lightning is high-power, but low-energy. And it is unpredictable and intermittent.
But so are most renewables, wind-power, geo-thermal blah blah blah

But so are most renewables, wind-power, geo-thermal blah blah blah
Few renewables are as stupid as lightning. :D

1.21 gigawatts, I believe.

That's not necessarily the exact amount, merely an amount that it is above, and thus able to power the delorean.

That's not necessarily the exact amount, merely an amount that it is above, and thus able to power the delorean.

Technically, you still need unleaded gasoline to power the Delorean. The 1.21 gigawatts powers the flux capacitor.

no

Technically, you still need unleaded gasoline to power the Delorean. The 1.21 gigawatts powers the flux capacitor.

You are quite right. I stand corrected.

even if its low energy we may as well try. =) I think it'd contribute some to our supply, small as it may be. Why not? Nice idea. T'wasn't the slightest bit stupid. lol

even if its low energy we may as well try. =) I think it'd contribute some to our supply, small as it may be. Why not? Nice idea. T'wasn't the slightest bit stupid. lol

Unless you set up a lightning collection station in the middle of a perpetual lightning storm, the power required to convert and store the energy would outweigh the power gained.

Well, lightning worked well enough to power the force-fields in Stargate Atlantis. :D But only in the middle of a whopper of a storm. No storm, no power.

even if its low energy we may as well try. =) I think it'd contribute some to our supply, small as it may be. Why not? Nice idea. T'wasn't the slightest bit stupid. lol
*Points and laughs*

Hehe, actually it is. We're talking high-school textbook material.

actually wind power here in wales could provide ridiculus amounts of energy also if they built the severn barrage it would provide a minimum of about 10% of britains energy (god I love being in a windy stormy country...)

actually wind power here in wales could provide ridiculus amounts of energy also if they built the severn barrage it would provide a minimum of about 10% of britains energy (god I love being in a windy stormy country...)

I'm sure wind power would also work great in Washington DC. :)

Well, is it?

It is electircity yes? It can be collected or driven to a certain point? Yes, as proven by those spiky thingys on building (sorry can't remember the name) and so they could go into batteries somehow?:confused:

If so...:)

it's not reliable enough in it's intensity or frequency to be used on a large scale. however, it could be possible for a power station in a particularly thunderstorm-prone area to use lightning rods to channel the energy from lightning into batteries for a backup power source or to power a small settlement.

I'm sure wind power would also work great in Washington DC. :)

would probably work well in cardiff and london as well...

Lightning is high-power, but low-energy. And it is unpredictable and intermittent.

If it's good enough for one of Dr. Wiley's robots it's good enough for you and me.

ahem.
actually, lightning rods are rarely struck by lightning. its a common misconception that a lightning rod (ie a very tall conducting rod which is grounded by some wire) operates by being the most likely and safest place for a lightning strike. here is how it actually works:

lightning strikes when the positive and negative charges become seperated. if memory recalls, its positive charge in the cloud and negative charge in the earth. when the voltage becomes great enough, the charges cross the gap of air between them and equalize in charge. what a lightning rod does is discharges the charges on the ground so that they dont build up enough to get that voltage difference. how this works is simple. if the entire ground is charged, then some of the charge will rest in the rod. the charges at the very tip of the rod are being repulsed by the like charges below it, and since all these charges are in the same direction, their force fields push the charge out. this is a process that occurs constantly. the same effect is used in commercial airplanes. if you look at the wings, there are a bunch of little antannae sticking backwards on the wing. this is to discharge static that is built up as the plane moves through the air so, in fact, that is not an entirely feasible strategy because the purpose of a lightning rod is to decrease the chance of it and the surrounding area being struck by lightning.

Actually, no-one mentioned artificial lightning. I don't know if it's feasible, but basically, a laser beam can heat air and turn it into plasma. Plasma conducts electricity. So you just have to shoot the laser into the atmosphere or whatnot, and the potential difference between the clouds and the ground will do the rest.

At least, I think so. My physics is a little rusty.

1.21 gigawatts, I believe.

No, no, no. This sucker's electrical, but I need a nuclear reaction to generate the 1.21 jigawatts of electricity I need.

http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/delorean.gif

(I always wanted to use that one!!!)

I can see it now. Huge tracts of land covered by kites teathered to keys sitting in Leyden jars capturing the energy of lightning.

ahem.
actually, lightning rods are rarely struck by lightning. its a common misconception that a lightning rod (ie a very tall conducting rod which is grounded by some wire) operates by being the most likely and safest place for a lightning strike. here is how it actually works:

lightning strikes when the positive and negative charges become seperated. if memory recalls, its positive charge in the cloud and negative charge in the earth. when the voltage becomes great enough, the charges cross the gap of air between them and equalize in charge. what a lightning rod does is discharges the charges on the ground so that they dont build up enough to get that voltage difference. how this works is simple. if the entire ground is charged, then some of the charge will rest in the rod. the charges at the very tip of the rod are being repulsed by the like charges below it, and since all these charges are in the same direction, their force fields push the charge out. this is a process that occurs constantly. the same effect is used in commercial airplanes. if you look at the wings, there are a bunch of little antannae sticking backwards on the wing. this is to discharge static that is built up as the plane moves through the air so, in fact, that is not an entirely feasible strategy because the purpose of a lightning rod is to decrease the chance of it and the surrounding area being struck by lightning.

The charges are the other way around. And lightning rods act as a safe conductor for the elctricity to reach the ground. Electricity always takes the path of least resistance, and a metal rod and wire straight to the ground resits electricity much less than air.

I think a lot of people who are struck by lightning survive. That's not a good sign, powerwise.

I think a lot of people who are struck by lightning survive. That's not a good sign, powerwise.
In terms of severity of injury, a lighting bolt is equivalent to a heavy calibre gunshot, although its energy is far higher (most of it is wasted). Sometimes you even get an entry and exit wound, with a chewed up path in between. In that sense, there is a decent chance of survival if the victim is treated quickly, but also a chance that the injury will be instantly fatal. The probability of death rises if the arc passes through the chest.

And indeed, there is not much hope of powering anything on something like gunshots.

I read that if you're about to get struck by lightning, you'll feel a tingly sensation and your hairs will stand on end. It said to get on hands and knees, so that the current will pass through your limbs to the ground.

I read that if you're about to get struck by lightning, you'll feel a tingly sensation and your hairs will stand on end. It said to get on hands and knees, so that the current will pass through your limbs to the ground.
I think if you're about to be hit by lightning you'd have to be able to move faster than the speed of light(a guess) to do anything about it.

I read that if you're about to get struck by lightning, you'll feel a tingly sensation and your hairs will stand on end. It said to get on hands and knees, so that the current will pass through your limbs to the ground.
I've heard that you should lie flat because the lightning will want to arc between the highest point nearby and the clouds. Therefore you don't want to be the highest point.

I've heard that you should lie flat because the lightning will want to arc between the highest point nearby and the clouds. Therefore you don't want to be the highest point.Meh, I always hear that if you can't find somewhere to be near that is higher than you (other than a tree or such other combustible material), then you should get down as if you are praying an stick your butt in the air... technically...

Seeing as you'd be the highest point anyway, you might as well present the part of you that will keep you safest. The electricity will strike your bum muscles and then travel down your legs to your knees and then into the ground. Thus keeping the energy well away from your vital organs and spine. I think there's also something about your bum which means it would suffer the least amount of damage if struck my lightning.
...
However, no one wants to look like a fool sticking their bum in air, even if it might save their life.

I've heard that you should lie flat because the lightning will want to arc between the highest point nearby and the clouds. Therefore you don't want to be the highest point.

TG seems to know about electricity, let's hear from him...

I think if you're about to be hit by lightning you'd have to be able to move faster than the speed of light(a guess) to do anything about it.

I said about to be hit, I didn't say it's already on it's way down. It's like if you could see that something is about to fall off a shelf, you act before it falls.

I've heard that you should lie flat because the lightning will want to arc between the highest point nearby and the clouds. Therefore you don't want to be the highest point.

I assumed that the tingling sensation meant that it was too late for that - you were going to be hit and the only thing to do was prepare.

I've heard that you should lie flat because the lightning will want to arc between the highest point nearby and the clouds. Therefore you don't want to be the highest point.

I heard you should crouch. The shorter you make yourself the less distance the lightning has to travel through you and the less energy it will impart to you. keeping your feet together when you crouch is also supposed to shorten the distance. If it's raining you're supposed to hope that the charge will travel through your wet clothes instead of you.

I also heard you shouldn't get too close to high objects as when they get hit you can be electrocuted.

I heard you should crouch. The shorter you make yourself the less distance the lightning has to travel through you and the less energy it will impart to you. keeping your feet together when you crouch is also supposed to shorten the distance. If it's raining you're supposed to hope that the charge will travel through your wet clothes instead of you.

I also heard you shouldn't get too close to high objects as when they get hit you can be electrocuted.
I never said get close to high objects, but if lightning is looking for a place to hit and you're 6 feet tall, but significantly less than 6 feet thick, lying down decreases your chances of being hit.

I never said get close to high objects, but if lightning is looking for a place to hit and you're 6 feet tall, but significantly less than 6 feet thick, lying down decreases your chances of being hit.

I think lying down should definitely help. To me it sounds better than crouching, as the lightning will only have to drill through you for about 20 centimetres and you can't get any lower. However crouching is the advice I was given.

The charges are the other way around. And lightning rods act as a safe conductor for the elctricity to reach the ground. Electricity always takes the path of least resistance, and a metal rod and wire straight to the ground resits electricity much less than air.
There are reverse lightning bolts, however they are pretty rare. Much more power involved though.

Well, is it?

It is electircity yes? It can be collected or driven to a certain point? Yes, as proven by those spiky thingys on building (sorry can't remember the name) and so they could go into batteries somehow?:confused:

If so...:)

Lightning has very high voltage, but almost no amperage and a hell of a lot of resistance (which is why the air superheats and thermally expands when a lightning bolt passes. . .air isn't a very good conductor, and a lot of energy transmitted through the lightning strike is transmitted to the conducting medium. We know this thermal expansion as thunder). The low amperage is the primary reason why people can survive lightning strikes instead of being reduced to glowing briquettes, but it also means that in terms of electrical power, lightning is not a very good source of power generation.

Besides, one advantage lightning does have is infusing the ground with nitrogen. Remove lightning, and the ground depletes of nitrates faster, which makes it more difficult for plants to grow.

If we did this, we'd only be able to use appliances during a thunderstorm, and don't you know you're never supposed to run appliances during a thunderstorm?

Don't lie on the ground. Should the electric field be positioned in such a way that your body lies perpendicular to the lines of equipotential, you will be maximising the potential difference across the length of your body.

A simple calculation will reveal that standing on moist ground with your legs spread will set up 1000V across their span. Think about it. 1000V between your legs. :eek:

This is why cattle die. Their hearts are between their forelegs, right on the path of least resistance, and the distance between them is sufficiently high that they are subject to a lethal voltage.

Don't stand either, because electric fields are concentrated on sharp edges and discontinuities, but are more spread out on flat and gently curved surfaces.

Ideally you should crouch with your legs together, away from any angular vertical objects, such as streetlights and trees.

Don't lie on the ground. Should the electric field be positioned in such a way that your body lies perpendicular to the lines of equipotential, you will be maximising the potential difference across the length of your body.

A simple calculation will reveal that standing on moist ground with your legs spread will set up 1000V across their span. Think about it. 1000V between your legs. :eek:

This is why cattle die. Their hearts are between their forelegs, right on the path of least resistance, and the distance between them is sufficiently high that they are subject to a lethal voltage.

Don't stand either, because electric fields are concentrated on sharp edges and discontinuities, but are more spread out on flat and gently curved surfaces.

Ideally you should crouch with your legs together, away from any angular vertical objects, such as streetlights and trees.


Told'ya.

So...when you say 'crouch'...Is that like, on your butt with your arms around your legs or what?

So...when you say 'crouch'...Is that like, on your butt with your arms around your legs or what?
The standard airline crash position should be OK. It won't help if you take a direct hit, but at least a nearby strike should not drive any secondary current through you.

The absolutely worst thing anyone could do is doing press-ups during a thunderstorm. Into one hand, through your heart, out of the other hand. For the reasons already explained, you will find that a lightning strike in a farmer's field can kill cows, but will leave any sheep alone. So if a sadistic coach ever tells you to do press-ups in the rain, throw the electromagnetic field theory textbook at him. ;)

The standard airline crash position should be OK. It won't help if you take a direct hit, but at least a nearby strike should not drive any secondary current through you.

The absolutely worst thing anyone could do is doing press-ups during a thunderstorm. Into one hand, through your heart, out of the other hand. For the reasons already explained, you will find that a lightning strike in a farmer's field can kill cows, but will leave any sheep alone. So if a sadistic coach ever tells you to do press-ups in the rain, throw the electromagnetic field theory textbook at him. ;)

Yay! Scientifically supported excuses out of gym! *worships*

Well, is it?

It is electircity yes? It can be collected or driven to a certain point? Yes, as proven by those spiky thingys on building (sorry can't remember the name) and so they could go into batteries somehow?:confused:

If so...:)

Waste of time. Lightning is unpredictable, intermittent, and low-energy. If you're trying to get at that source of energy, bypass the unsuitable intermediate vehicle of lightning and go straight to the source - build some form of John Galt's motor that draws directly from local atmospheric static electricity.

-snip-
Quick question. What do you do for a living?

Quick question. What do you do for a living?
Power systems engineer. ;)

Power systems engineer. ;)
Sweet!


So all that knowledge is justified, eh?

Anyways, the first seven or so times I read this thread's title I thought it was about using lighting as a renewable source of energy. Icouldn't wait to see what you thought of that.

So all that knowledge is justified, eh?
I'm damn happy it is too, it's not the easiest of degrees.

I'm damn happy it is too, it's not the easiest of degrees.
Pish posh, give me five minutes with google and I would have that course passed.