NationStates Jolt Archive

High Gas prices are the best thing that could happen to civilization right now. In the long run, they will encourage alternative energy policies, a cleaner environment due to the reduction of carbon based emissions and they will eliminate our dependence on foreign oil. Not to mention the end of urban sprawl, and many other obvious benefits. Of course, this could have happened in a much less painful way with the right policies, but all our politicians care about is making a quick buck from the oil industry.

All this talk of price gouging is nonsense. It's simple supply and demand economics. And the fact that there is a virtual monopoly on oil in the United States. But Republicans have no problem with that.

http://www.slate.com/id/2140613/nav/tap1/

I second that.

I thirded that!:)

High Gas prices are the best thing that could happen to civilization right now. In the long run, they will encourage alternative energy policies, a cleaner environment due to the reduction of carbon based emissions and they will eliminate our dependence on foreign oil. Not to mention the end of urban sprawl, and many other obvious benefits. Of course, this could have happened in a much less painful way ....
I tend to agree with this! :eek:

High Gas prices are the best thing that could happen to civilization right now. In the long run, they will encourage alternative energy policies, a cleaner environment due to the reduction of carbon based emissions and they will eliminate our dependence on foreign oil. Not to mention the end of urban sprawl, and many other obvious benefits. Of course, this could have happened in a much less painful way with the right policies, but all our politicians care about is making a quick buck from the oil industry.

All this talk of price gouging is nonsense. It's simple supply and demand economics. And the fact that there is a virtual monopoly on oil in the United States. But Republicans have no problem with that.

http://www.slate.com/id/2140613/nav/tap1/

If it weren't for the fact that gas prices disproportionately hurt the poor and the working class, I would be cheering about increases in gas prices. Hell, I would be hoping for prices to hit $10 a gallon! Let's go for $25!

If it weren't for the fact that gas prices disproportionately hurt the poor and the working class, I would be cheering about increases in gas prices. Hell, I would be hoping for prices to hit $10 a gallon! Let's go for $25!

And over here in the UK the old.

If it weren't for the fact that gas prices disproportionately hurt the poor and the working class, I would be cheering about increases in gas prices. Hell, I would be hoping for prices to hit $10 a gallon! Let's go for $25!

That, of course, is the problem. We need to change, and high prices is the only way that will happen. But it sure sux if you're poor.

Talking about price gouging allows them to point fingers at gas station owners and attract attention away from oil companies.

Considering the fact that oil companies are making record high profits some price gouging may be occuring. Imagine this happening in any other business. Imagine if beef prices went up by two dollars per pound and the local grocery store decided to raise the price of a pound of ground beef by three dollars instead of two. People would be upset. That's kind of what's happening here. Crude oil is more expensive, but oil companies are charging more than the added cost of producing fuel. They're padding their profits.

Still, it will help drive alternative energy research. It's a good thing in the long run.

The only problem with alternative energy is that the people that run oil, are going to be the ones running the next format. They'll find "reasons" to price gouge there to. :mad:

That, of course, is the problem. We need to change, and high prices is the only way that will happen. But it sure sux if you're poor.
I just can't be that cavalier about it. It's not just that it sucks for the poor, it's that higher prices could completely cripple an entire segment of the population.

Individuals who are already struggling to make ends meet could lose their jobs because they have no way to get to those jobs. The majority of Americans do not have access to a comprehensive mass transit system that can take them from home to work.

It will take years, possibly decades, to construct the mass transit systems that would be needed to replace American dependence on cars. Perhaps many of us are fortunate enough to be able to make do until then, but 60% of Americans currently report that they live "paycheck to paycheck." Try telling them that their family has to come up with an extra $200 a month for gas, and see if you can look their kids in the face when Daddy explains that they will have to have an "imaginary Christmas" this year.

Parents could be forced to take busses or poorly-run mass transit systems that would add HOURS to their commutes, further decreasing their time with their kids. And when those kids act out, who will get blamed? Not the people who jacked up the gas prices. Not the oil companies. Not those who destroyed our country's early efforts at oil independence. The parents will be blamed.

We've basically backed ourselves into a corner. The SUV-driving gas guzzlers are never going to stop indugling their selfishness until we make it prohibitively expensive, but the poor will be feeling the pinch for YEARS before price hikes start to impact the people who are wasting the most gas. I find that unacceptable.

It will take years, possibly decades, to construct the mass transit systems that would be needed to replace American dependence on cars. Perhaps many of us are fortunate enough to be able to make do until then, but 60% of Americans currently report that they live "paycheck to paycheck." Try telling them that their family has to come up with an extra $200 a month for gas, and see if you can look their kids in the face when Daddy explains that they will have to have an "imaginary Christmas" this year.
Imaginary Christmas? Try imaginary breakfast.

High Gas prices are the best thing that could happen to civilization right now. In the long run, they will encourage alternative energy policies, a cleaner environment due to the reduction of carbon based emissions and they will eliminate our dependence on foreign oil. Not to mention the end of urban sprawl, and many other obvious benefits. Of course, this could have happened in a much less painful way with the right policies, but all our politicians care about is making a quick buck from the oil industry.

All this talk of price gouging is nonsense. It's simple supply and demand economics. And the fact that there is a virtual monopoly on oil in the United States. But Republicans have no problem with that.

http://www.slate.com/id/2140613/nav/tap1/
I would argue that more so than supply/demand economics, economic elasticity plays the biggest role. Petrol is pretty damn inelastic. This means that the private sector flourishes under the relatively low market response to rate hikes, and the public purse does amazingly well for itself too, seeing it can tax whatever the fuck it wants without majorly influencing demand. The only losers are the consumers, but they only lose what they are happy to give up (if not, don't buy petrol). Basically everyone is happy.

Imaginary Christmas? Try imaginary breakfast.
Well, yeah, pretty much. :(

Considering that the poverty rate in the US has been consistently increasing, it seems totally heartless to compound the problem by deliberately plunging more people into poverty and telling them, "Yeah, I know, it sucks, but we need energy independence! If you're still alive in 15 years, you'll thank us!"

Well, yeah, pretty much. :(

Considering that the poverty rate in the US has been consistently increasing, it seems totally heartless to compound the problem by deliberately plunging more people into poverty and telling them, "Yeah, I know, it sucks, but we need energy independence! If you're still alive in 15 years, you'll thank us!"
It is totally heartless, and it happens because poor people 1) don't vote as a bloc and when they do vote, it's often against their economic interests and 2) more importantly, they don't contribute to political campaigns. We're a pay-to-play country.

This is NOT just basic supplyand demand pricing. I could understand that if it was ground beef, orange juice or XBox 360s.

But the vast majority of peoplehave no alternative. Most of us have no alternative but to drive to and from work and have no other place where we can go to pump something into our cars to make it go. There isno alternative to gasoline. The oil companies have a monopoly on car go-juice.

If I could fill my car with grape juice or spaghetti sauce and make it go, I wouldn't complain about gas prices. But the bottom line is that I need to get gouged to get to work. That isn't supply and demand. That's extortion.

Well, yeah, pretty much. :(

Considering that the poverty rate in the US has been consistently increasing, it seems totally heartless to compound the problem by deliberately plunging more people into poverty and telling them, "Yeah, I know, it sucks, but we need energy independence! If you're still alive in 15 years, you'll thank us!"

I agree, but what's the solution? I can't think of any way that DOESN'T hurt the poor. What bugs the h*ll out of me is that we're worse off in oil dependence than we were in the 70's, and our urban sprawl is worse too. Why didn't we do anything after the Oil Embargo?

This is NOT just basic supplyand demand pricing. I could understand that if it was ground beef, orange juice or XBox 360s.

But the vast majority of peoplehave no alternative. Most of us have no alternative but to drive to and from work and have no other place where we can go to pump something into our cars to make it go. There isno alternative to gasoline. The oil companies have a monopoly on car go-juice.

If I could fill my car with grape juice or spaghetti sauce and make it go, I wouldn't complain about gas prices. But the bottom line is that I need to get gouged to get to work. That isn't supply and demand. That's extortion.

Yeah, we get screwed any way you look at it. I'd love to be able to ride a bike, or even take a bus to work. But I can't without adding a minimum of 2 hours to my commute. My workday is already long enough!

I agree, but what's the solution? I can't think of any way that DOESN'T hurt the poor. What bugs the h*ll out of me is that we're worse off in oil dependence than we were in the 70's, and our urban sprawl is worse too. Why didn't we do anything after the Oil Embargo?
Well, for one thing we could stop giving any tax breaks to oil companies and instead funnel tax breaks to alternative energy programs. Quit giving tax breaks to people who buy SUVs and trucks, and start giving large tax cuts to people who choose compacts and hybrids. Take all the money we've been giving to the oil executives, and use it to fund public transit initiatives.

Hell, just take all the money we've been giving to the oil executives and give it right to the poor people! ANYTHING is better than letting Exxon feast while Americans starve.

High Gas prices are the best thing that could happen to civilization right now. In the long run, they will encourage alternative energy policies, a cleaner environment due to the reduction of carbon based emissions and they will eliminate our dependence on foreign oil. Not to mention the end of urban sprawl, and many other obvious benefits. Of course, this could have happened in a much less painful way with the right policies, but all our politicians care about is making a quick buck from the oil industry.

All this talk of price gouging is nonsense. It's simple supply and demand economics. And the fact that there is a virtual monopoly on oil in the United States. But Republicans have no problem with that.

http://www.slate.com/id/2140613/nav/tap1/
though I dissagree with your politics, I agree that OPEC is shooting itself in the foot by over charging for curde.

Well, for one thing we could stop giving any tax breaks to oil companies and instead funnel tax breaks to alternative energy programs. Quit giving tax breaks to people who buy SUVs and trucks, and start giving large tax cuts to people who choose compacts and hybrids. Take all the money we've been giving to the oil executives, and use it to fund public transit initiatives.

Hell, just take all the money we've been giving to the oil executives and give it right to the poor people! ANYTHING is better than letting Exxon feast while Americans starve.
you can't tax people more than they are for mabey having a large family, or mabey a constrution job that requires it? think it through.

though I dissagree with your politics, I agree that OPEC is shooting itself in the foot by over charging for curde.
That's the thing, though--OPEC isn't overcharging. Demand has outstripped supply, and prices have gone up as a result. We've known this day was coming for decades, but did precious little about it. Now we're paying.

you can't tax people more than they are for mabey having a large family,

Well, my issues with people who choose to have large families are really a topic for another thread...

or mabey a constrution job that requires it? think it through.
I should have been more specific: I was refering to recreational vehicles, not for business vehicles. Obviously it will not help reduce the gas crisis if we require that all goods be shipped by large fleets of compact cars. :)

But please note: I did not say that people who buy trucks or SUVs should be punished with HIGHER taxes, just that they should not get tax breaks for buying those larger vehicles.

That's the thing, though--OPEC isn't overcharging. Demand has outstripped supply, and prices have gone up as a result. We've known this day was coming for decades, but did precious little about it. Now we're paying.
no they to are overcharging, why do you think Middle Eastern Rulers are some of the richest SOBs in the world? costs $.10 to pull out of the ground $1.00 tops to get it to market, and they sell a barell of oil for $70! 700% - 7000% net gain isn't to bad.

Well, my issues with people who choose to have large families are really a topic for another thread...

I should have been more specific: I was refering to recreational vehicles, not for business vehicles. Obviously it will not help reduce the gas crisis if we require that all goods be shipped by large fleets of compact cars. :)

But please note: I did not say that people who buy trucks or SUVs should be punished with HIGHER taxes, just that they should not get tax breaks for buying those larger vehicles.
I'm willing to bet that the rail industry is looking at these gas prices and salivating, both for passenger and for shipping.

Remember during the election Bush et al had a cute little website that figured how much Kerry was going to raise gas prices and how much it'd cost the American people?


I think it was actually their plan, not his.

Well, my issues with people who choose to have large families are really a topic for another thread...

I should have been more specific: I was refering to recreational vehicles, not for business vehicles. Obviously it will not help reduce the gas crisis if we require that all goods be shipped by large fleets of compact cars. :)

But please note: I did not say that people who buy trucks or SUVs should be punished with HIGHER taxes, just that they should not get tax breaks for buying those larger vehicles.
Ok, :)
But I still disagree with your method, people going and buying cars are stimulating the economy so they deserve a tax break for it, I would however be in favor of further raising tax cuts for hybrids and the like. But I fear there will still be fall-out from the demicratic party for 'tax cuts for the rich'.

I'm willing to bet that the rail industry is looking at these gas prices and salivating, both for passenger and for shipping.
yes, I do favor broadening rail use, in fact in my fast growing town (hour north of Texas capital) there is a very large brand new comuter station recently completed.

Ok, :)
But I still disagree with your method, people going and buying cars are stimulating the economy so they deserve a tax break for it, I would however be in favor of further raising tax cuts for hybrids and the like. But I fear there will still be fall-out from the demicratic party for 'tax cuts for the rich'.

I don't mind tax breaks for cars. But SUVs aren't really cars. SUV tax cuts can be :mp5: as far as I'm concerned. :)

I don't mind tax breaks for cars. But SUVs aren't really cars. SUV tax cuts can be :mp5: as far as I'm concerned. :)
but it helps the economy and that is what the cuts are supposed to reward

Considering that the poverty rate in the US has been consistently increasing..."

Interesting how this is happening while the per capita gdp is also consistently increasing. Gas prices are only one part of a much larger problem in the US.

but it helps the economy and that is what the cuts are supposed to reward
Tax cuts don't always help the economy, and in this case, it can certainly be argued that they harm it in the long run. Besides, you don't need to get rid of the tax cuts so much as you need to force car manufacturers to include SUVs in with their fleet calculations to see if they're meeting CAFE standards, and then you need to up those standards. Make the whole damn lot of them more fuel efficient.

no they to are overcharging, why do you think Middle Eastern Rulers are some of the richest SOBs in the world? costs $.10 to pull out of the ground $1.00 tops to get it to market, and they sell a barell of oil for $70! 700% - 7000% net gain isn't to bad.

Basically the oil is bought on the markets, i.e. an auction with the highest bidder getting the goods. The way OPEC increased price was restrict supply as then there is less to go around people are willing to pay more for what they want/need. Unfortunately OPEC is not in a good position to decrease supply as they are getting close to maximum output. (though Iraq has a lot of oil that isn't being pumped yet, also the major storms we had last year around the world disrupted the off-shore oil supply as well.

Well, for one thing we could stop giving any tax breaks to oil companies and instead funnel tax breaks to alternative energy programs. Quit giving tax breaks to people who buy SUVs and trucks, and start giving large tax cuts to people who choose compacts and hybrids. Take all the money we've been giving to the oil executives, and use it to fund public transit initiatives.

Hell, just take all the money we've been giving to the oil executives and give it right to the poor people! ANYTHING is better than letting Exxon feast while Americans starve.
My sentiments exactly.