NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I'm not Christian. Well, I might be technically, on the census, but not really. Anyway, I'll tell you why Christianity is probably the best of the three.

Because it reformed.

Yep. For the most part, islam and Judaism didn't have a reformation like Christianity did. They also believe in the Old Testament, while Christianity has mostly dismissed it. And Christianity has better leadership, meaning that Christians have an authority to tell them what to do, which stops them from doing stupid shit like some muslims do.

So, am I close, or way off?

reform judaism (http://www.rj.org/)

That's like saying "That's why I think chunky turd is the best of all types of faeces."

What, we're ranking religions now?

Everyone has their own way of looking at the world. It just so happens that there exist some organisations to take advantage of this fact. As institutes, the three are guilty of the same offense that renders any other virtue or fault unimportant by comparison.

reform judaism (http://www.rj.org/)

Yeah, but that's a small scale thing. Christianity got real shook up by it's reformation. And they also had the Vatican Councils.

That's like saying "That's why I think chunky turd is the best of all types of faeces."

Don't like religion?

Yeah, but that's a small scale thing. Christianity got real shook up by it's reformation. And they also had the Vatican Councils.

Dude, I really hope you're not trying to argue the point that the Catholic Church is a good source of leadership.

That's like saying "That's why I think chunky turd is the best of all types of faeces."

Chunky turd? :p :p :p

I nearly died.

Yeah, but that's a small scale thing. Christianity got real shook up by it's reformation. And they also had the Vatican Councils.

From the linked site.


Reform Judaism is now the largest Jewish movement in North America, with more than 900 congregations and 1.5 million people.

It's hardly small scale.

It's hardly small scale.

But how many Jews are there worldwide compared to that?

Dude, I really hope you're not trying to argue the point that the Catholic Church is a good source of leadership.

Better than no leadership at all. The Vatican still does immensly stupid shit, but Catholics listen to them. Meaning they don't do stuff like terrorism.

How convenient.

I was only recently wondering why K-P still believes that Christianity is the best of the Abrahamic religions.

Better than no leadership at all. The Vatican still does immensly stupid shit, but Catholics listen to them. Meaning they don't do stuff like terrorism.Are you sure about that?

And Christianity has better leadership, meaning that Christians have an authority to tell them what to doMany christians don't. The pope is only an authority to Catholics.

which stops them from doing stupid shit like some muslims do.Like holy wars? Like the crusades the pope send people fighting on in medieval times. Yes, an authority really helped then..

Are you sure about that?

For the most part, they don't. They don't ram planes into towers or do suicides bombings. There's an abortion clinic bombing every 5 or so years, but that's about it.

Better than no leadership at all. The Vatican still does immensly stupid shit, but Catholics listen to them. Meaning they don't do stuff like terrorism.IRA?

Which is better - A centralised leadership doing immensly stupid shit or a dispersed leadership where only some of them do only stupid shit.

Not all muslim leaders promote terrorism and this has to be better than the possiblity of a return to a central Caliph who can say what he wants and the majority of muslims will follow.

For the most part, they don't. They don't ram planes into towers or do suicides bombings. There's an abortion clinic bombing every 5 or so years, but that's about it.Ever heard of this place called Northern Ireland? Sure, for the most part, they don't. Same goes for muslims and jews.

Like holy wars? Like the crusades the pope send people fighting on in medieval times. Yes, an authority really helped then..

To be fair, K-P is talking about recent events and not what happened hundreds of years ago.

Many christians don't. The pope is only an authority to Catholics.

The Orthodoxy has the Patriarchs, which are a solid source of leadership. Larger Protestant sects usually have strong leadership too.

Like holy wars? Like the crusades the pope send people fighting on in medieval times. Yes, an authority really helped then..

That was 800 years ago. You would have done the same thing 800 years ago.

Ever heard of this place called Northern Ireland? Sure, for the most part, they don't. Same goes for muslims and jews.

The IRA had pretty much nothing to do with the church and was mainly a criminal organisation who use religion as a convenient excuse.

Ever heard of this place called Northern Ireland? Sure, for the most part, they don't. Same goes for muslims and jews.

The Northern Ireland conflict has a religious background, but it's not mainly religious. It's Unionists against Republicans. It's not a holy war.

But how many Jews are there worldwide compared to that?

Hmmmm. I believe that the percentage of jews that are reform/progressive is slightly higher than the percentage of christians that are protestant.

I'm going from memory, however, but I imagine it is at least around 20%.

Come on guys, K-Ps' is an easy enough argument to refute without resorting to straw men.

The Northern Ireland conflict has a religious background, but it's not mainly religious. It's Unionists against Republicans. It's not a holy war.

I've often heard it referred to as catholics v protestants, and heard religous justifications by many people. Well i suppose you can chalk that up to the religions have stupid adherants, but you could say that about many religions.

The IRA had pretty much nothing to do with the church and was mainly a criminal organisation who use religion as a convenient excuse.That doesn't matter though, they're still catholic and terrorist despite the pope being against it.
It wasn't said they had to be terrorist out of religious motives, or blow themselves up.

Many christians don't. The pope is only an authority to Catholics.


Yes, but he really has no spiritual authority. Roman Catholics were expelled from the church of england for heresy. Likewise the pope.

Lets discuss how good the Catholic leadship is in conparison the poor examples set by muslims shall we?

Number of deaths caused by hiv in 2005 - 3,100,000
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
Number of deaths caused by terrorists in 2003 - 625
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/1081.html

I realise the years don't tally but I think you can get the picture.

The Northern Ireland conflict has a religious background, but it's not mainly religious. It's Unionists against Republicans. It's not a holy war.

Yes, just like Palestine.

Lets discuss how good the Catholic leadship is in conparison the poor examples set by muslims shall we?

Number of deaths caused by hiv in 2005 - 3,100,000
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
Number of deaths caused by terrorists in 2003 - 625
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/1081.html

I realise the years don't tally but I think you can get the picture.

Just because the Church says condoms are bad, doesn't stop people from using condoms. HIV spreading is due to those people's own stupidity.

Terrorism, meanwhile, is something that could be prevented by an authority.

Lets discuss how good the Catholic leadship is in conparison the poor examples set by muslims shall we?


Well what do you expect from heretics?

The sooner the average catholic recognizes the true spiritual authority of the General Synod, the better I say.

How? The Muslim Council of Britain condemned terrorist acts yet we still had the bombs on the London underground.

Well what do you expect from heretics?

The sooner the average catholic recognizes the true spiritual authority of the General Synod, the better I say.

Damn straight!!

Terrorism, meanwhile, is something that could be prevented by an authority.


You know the funny thing is you probably actually believe that.

Chunky turd? :p :p :p

I nearly died.

Just be careful not to confuse it with Chunky Monkey (http://www.benjerry.co.uk/ouricecream/tubs/chunky_monkey.gif), or you might just indeed die.

Yes, just like Palestine.

Sorta. But Palestine has MASSIVE religious subtexts. There would be much less trouble if it was some Arab state in the place of Israel.

Northern Ireland is more like, "We need to rejoin our brothers in the Republic! Also, the English are filthy, filthy Protestants!"

Just because the Church says condoms are bad, doesn't stop people from using condoms. HIV spreading is due to those people's own stupidity.

Terrorism, meanwhile, is something that could be prevented by an authority.So why didn't the pope manage to stop the IRA?

Terrorism, meanwhile, is something that could be prevented by an authority.No it's not.
For Al Quaida terrorist Bin Laden is the authority. No 'higher' muslim authority would change that. No more than any members of a christian cult would listen to the pope over their cult leader.

How? The Muslim Council of Britain condemned terrorist acts yet we still had the bombs on the London underground.

The MCB has no spiritual power. It's just a representative body.

So why didn't the pope manage to stop the IRA?

Because it's not an inherently religious conflict. Nationalism can have more power than religion.

Damn straight!!

It really would solve 90% of the problems.

There's even a high church service ready for them.

The MCB has no spiritual power. It's just a representative body.

Oh, and there was me thinking is was made up of some of the most influencial Imams in the UK. Silly me.

No it's not.
For Al Quaida terrorist Bin Laden is the authority. No 'higher' muslim authority would change that. No more than any members of a christian cult would listen to the pope over their cult leader.

A united muslim authority, on the same level as the Pope (also with similar preachings) would help stem terrorism. There are always cults, though.

Because it's not an inherently religious conflict. Nationalism can have more power than religion.And how would that be different from the palestinian conflict? Much of the trouble we have today stems from the Pan-Arabic movement that was behind most of the wars against Israel.

Sorta. But Palestine has MASSIVE religious subtexts. There would be much less trouble if it was some Arab state in the place of Israel.

Northern Ireland is more like, "We need to rejoin our brothers in the Republic! Also, the English are filthy, filthy Protestants!"

I was being sarcastic; to try and trivialise the religious dimension of the Northern Ireland situation makes about as much sense as doing the same in Palestine or even Kashmir.

Yes, it's essentially about land, but you're trying to play down an interpretation which conflicts with how you would like to see the world (i.e. muslims = troublemakers, but not christians)

So why didn't the pope manage to stop the IRA?

I recall something about tacit approval and the american catholic lobby.

Frankly it's hypocritical though, since the pope - before the popes were rightfully expelled from the christian faith - gave ireland to the english crown.

So I fail to see the beef.

It really would solve 90% of the problems.

There's even a high church service ready for them.

I say we just go back to burning catholics in the UK. Think about it, we get rid of the annoying religion problem and solve the energy crisis all at once :p

Oh, and there was me thinking is was made up of some of the most influencial Imams in the UK. Silly me.

But it has no real official power. The Pope is the ultimate Catholic authority, next to God.

Oh, and there was me thinking is was made up of some of the most influencial Imams in the UK. Silly me.Why listen to first hand personal experience when biased internet sources tell you what you want to hear, ey? :D

But it has no real official power. The Pope is the ultimate Catholic authority, next to God.Have you just had another Religion class with that ex-monk of yours?

I was being sarcastic; to try and trivialise the religious dimension of the Northern Ireland situation makes about as much sense as doing the same in Palestine or even Kashmir.

Yes, it's essentially about land, but you're trying to play down an interpretation which conflicts with how you would like to see the world (i.e. muslims = troublemakers, but not christians)

I never said that Christians weren't bad. Just better. It is pretty much how Fass put it.

Have you just had another Religion class with that ex-monk of yours?

I had one today >_> We're starting Resurrection.

Oh, and there was me thinking is was made up of some of the most influencial Imams in the UK. Silly me.

To be fair to him, it is more than just a religious body. Its the umbrella organization for a variety of muslim groups and interests, and its leadership reflects that.

I say we just go back to burning catholics in the UK. Think about it, we get rid of the annoying religion problem and solve the energy crisis all at once :p

Yah. Cheaper than oil I expect.

To be fair to him, it is more than just a religious body. Its the umbrella organization for a variety of muslim groups and interests, and its leadership reflects that.

True, but if we're dicussing leadership within religions then this is as good as it gets in the UK for muslims. His point was that leadership stops terrorism, mine was that the MCB condemned terrorist attack and were ignored.

True, but if we're dicussing leadership within religions then this is as good as it gets in the UK for muslims. His point was that leadership stops terrorism, mine was that the MCB condemned terrorist attack and were ignored.

My point was that REAL leadership stops terrorism. Stems it, anyway. islam's problem is that the MCB is as good as it gets.

What, we're ranking religions now?

Everyone has their own way of looking at the world. It just so happens that there exist some organisations to take advantage of this fact. As institutes, the three are guilty of the same offense that renders any other virtue or fault unimportant by comparison.

Of course. I've always had my own "Hierarchy of Religions"

1. My Church
2. Other Christian Denominations
3. Judaism
4. Buddhism
5. Hinduism
6. Native/Tribal Religions
7. Other Eastern Religions
8. Islam
9. Atheism
10. Cults/Witchcraft (esp. Satanic Cults)

My point was that REAL leadership stops terrorism. Stems it, anyway. islam's problem is that the MCB is as good as it gets.

So you think that leadership is only as good as peoples willingness to follow it?

Because it's not an inherently religious conflict. Nationalism can have more power than religion.But the terrorism from al quaida (and ilk) is also not inherently religious. It's anti-western, anti-israel.

But the terrorism from al quaida (and ilk) is also not inherently religious. It's anti-western, anti-israel.

It is religious. The thing about islam is that, to them, everything in the koran, even if it contradicts something else, is correct. That makes it very easy to justify al-qaeda's actions with islamic beliefs.

So you think that leadership is only as good as peoples willingness to follow it?

In a sense. But people will listen to leadership with real spiritual authority (ie the Pope).

True, but if we're dicussing leadership within religions then this is as good as it gets in the UK for muslims. His point was that leadership stops terrorism, mine was that the MCB condemned terrorist attack and were ignored.

Actually, considering the overwhelming number of muslims in the UK aren't doing anything even vaguely terrorist, I'd say the MCBs condemnations have worked quite well.

Iqbal Sacranie's still a homophobe though.

In a sense. But people will listen to leadership with real spiritual authority (ie the Pope).

Yes, but from whence came the Pope spiritual power?

In a sense. But people will listen to leadership with real spiritual authority (ie the Pope)....like when he tells them not to use condoms.

It is religious. The thing about islam is that, to them, everything in the koran, even if it contradicts something else, is correct. That makes it very easy to justify al-qaeda's actions with islamic beliefs.It's not religious in it's base. It's just clothed in it.
Just like pretty much any 'religious' conflict ever was in fact due to other things.

...like when he tells them not to use condoms.

Yes, I suppose. You've got me there. But personally, I'd take scientific fact over the Pope's word, and I'd either use a condom or abstain.

Actually, considering the overwhelming number of muslims in the UK aren't doing anything even vaguely terrorist, I'd say the MCBs condemnations have worked quite well.

Iqbal Sacranie's still a homophobe though.

If you look at any segment of society then the number of people commiting terrorist acts is very small. This doesn't show that spiritual leadership is preventing it, it simply shows that most people aren't insane.

The whole of the MCB are homophobes.

It's not religious in it's base. It's just clothed in it.
Just like pretty much any 'religious' conflict ever was in fact due to other things.

It's always religious in it's base. It's just clothed in other things.

If you look at any segment of society then the number of people commiting terrorist acts is very small. This doesn't show that spiritual leadership is preventing it, it simply shows that most people aren't insane.

I was being glib.

The whole of the MCB are homophobes.

I'd like to think that wasn't true of many of the rank and file organizations, like the student societies and stuff. More just a poor reflection on the leadership.

I was being glib.
Sorry, getting too used to arguing to notice any levity when it comes my way.



I'd like to think that wasn't true of many of the rank and file organizations, like the student societies and stuff. More just a poor reflection on the leadership.
I don't think it is unfortunatly. Although, this is off topic, I remember when i was at Manchester uni and it came around to elections for the student union,the Jewish and Islamic societies would set up stall in font of the union and try to canvass voters to get their candidates elected. Every day it ended in a fight and the police had to be called. My friends and I used to stock up on beer and sit on the other side of the road taking bets on what time they'd all get arrested that day.

Nothing to do with this topic but the memory always makes me smile.

It's always religious in it's base. It's just clothed in other things.Nah, it's always about power. Controlling people. Religion like any other idealogy (e.g. communism) is just a means.

Sorry, getting too used to arguing to notice any levity when it comes my way.

NP

I don't think it is unfortunatly. Although, this is off topic, I remember when i was at Manchester uni and it came around to elections for the student union,the Jewish and Islamic societies would set up stall in font of the union and try to canvass voters to get their candidates elected. Every day it ended in a fight and the police had to be called. My friends and I used to stock up on beer and sit on the other side of the road taking bets on what time they'd all get arrested that day.


I actually find it quite sad that a university society can act that way. Makes the whole thing seem sort of pointless (going to University that is).

Ah well. Now I really dislike the MCB.

K-P seems to have beaten a retreat from this particular thread.

K-P seems to have beaten a retreat from this particular thread.

It's the middle of the night, I'm tired. I'm going to bed.

Frankly it's hypocritical though, since the pope - before the popes were rightfully expelled from the christian faith - gave ireland to the english crown.

So I fail to see the beef.

Did you know the Pope who gave Ireland to the English crown was himself, an Englishman? And that later Popes provided military aid to Irish rebels?

Did you know the Pope who gave Ireland to the English crown was himself, an Englishman? And that later Popes provided military aid to Irish rebels?

Oh, so now the pope's fallible is he?

Edit: And the later pope's that gave millitary aid had been expelled from the church by that time. Is there no shame?

Oh, so now the pope's fallible is he?He was before 1780 or something.. And probably soon to be again (if not already; I really don't keep track).

As far as I know, Papal Infallibility is a fairly recent doctrine. In any case, yes, he was completely and utterly wrong in that case.

EDIT - Expelled from the church? Youre entitled to believe what you like, but didnt the Protestant religions break from the church, and not vice versa?

IMO, the reason why modern Christianity is better than modern Islam is:

When Jerry Faldwell calls for the assasination of a country's leader, people say "WTF! That guy's NUTS!".

When Bin Laden calls for an attack on a country, people fly planes into buildings.

Both religions have nutcases, but very few people follow Christian loons. When a Christian loon DOES cause serious trouble, he is treated like any other criminal, not glorified into a hero.

IMO, the reason why modern Christianity is better than modern Islam is:

When Jerry Faldwell calls for the assasination of a country's leader, people say "WTF! That guy's NUTS!".

When Bin Laden calls for an attack on a country, people fly planes into buildings.

Both religions have nutcases, but very few people follow Christian loons. When a Christian loon DOES cause serious trouble, he is treated like any other criminal, not glorified into a hero.

That's nothing to do with the actual teachings of either religion. There is a culture of secularism in most Christian countries which prevents fanatics being taken seriously by many. Also, for people in a poor but proud country, which feels threatened by outside forces (could describe many muslim countries), religious fundamentalism seems much more attractive.