NationStates Jolt Archive

Have you guys heard of the National Association for the Advancement of Fat Acceptance? Their name is self-evident, but to elaborate it is a group that among other things, hint that the entire industry of obesity research is biased because of their economic stake (changed) in the issue, implying that their information on obesity health risks are misleading.

http://www.naafa.org/documents/policies/obesity_research.html
Most obesity researchers experience a profound economic conflict of interest. According to journalistic investigative reports on file at the NAAFA office, there is a connection between the evolution of the idea that obesity is a disease needing treatment and the economic interests of major players in the field. For example, the 1985 National Institutes of Health (NIH) consensus conference which proclaimed obesity a "killer disease" also arbitrarily redefined obesity in such a way as to affect millions more Americans. This redefinition and the call for treatment translated into billions of additional dollars of research money, commercial weight loss industry profits, and physicians' revenues.

And from the same page:
Obesity researchers' hypotheses often incorporate personal or cultural biases against fat people. Unproven assumptions about fatness frequently invalidate the basic premise of research studies. For example, obesity researchers often use data from studies of very-low-calorie diets (which demonstrate initial weight loss, followed by weight regain, and then by early death) to "prove" that being fat is unhealthy, rather than interpreting the data to mean that very-low-calorie diets are unhealthy. Conversely, mainstream obesity researchers never study alternatives to weight loss (such as exercise) in improving co-morbidity factors.

If you've ever tried to wade through piles of available research papers in any subject of science, you've surely realized that such a cavalier sweep of the hand as this, over the entire field of obesity research, does supreme injustice to the diversity of research and opinions available.

And about that lack of excersize research, if you go to Obesityresearch.org and just type in "exercise" as a search term, this is the page you get:
http://www.obesityresearch.org/cgi/search?andorexactfulltext=and&resourcetype=1&disp_type=&sortspec=relevance&author1=&fulltext=exercise++&pubdate_year=&volume=&firstpage=
No exercise research?

And those are just a few of their positions. There are surely stigmas against fat people that ought to be fought against. But in my opinion this group (which is sadly speaking for and influencing a lot of people concerned with this cause) takes this message to an anti-science turn that can not do anything but harm the people who listen to it.

thoughts?

Funny you should say they have an economic "steak."

Funny you should say they have an economic "steak."
lol, got me there. changed.

lol, got me there. changed.

I thought maybe it was a purposeful pun. You should run with that.

I expected another "I hate fat people" thred, but then I saw


There are surely stigmas against fat people that ought to be fought against. But in my opinion this group (which is sadly speaking for and influencing a lot of people concerned with this cause) takes this message to an anti-science turn that can not do anything but harm the people who listen to it.

and decided it was actually worth my time to reply. I agree that they are wrong, and that they do nothing to help obese people at all.
They make me almost as sick as pro-ana websites.

I sometimes wonder if the internet really is ruining the world, I mean think back before the internet, nobody knew about this stuff, crackpots were forced to talk to cats and jars of peanut butter......ahhh, the good ole days.

Then I play a little KoL and decide the internet indeed is good, and some people are just stupid. (like the fat acceptance crowd)

Smunkee, that's what I think makes this issue a particularly awkward one to deal with.. how do you articulate a position without just coming off as an "I hate fat people" kind of person. And to be sure this is the ready cover I think that keeps them going on. How can we constructively talk about obesity if everyone who's concerned about it is pegged as an intolerant bigot?

I'm not sure what Smunkee actually said, but I'm not sure why I should care about the fat acceptance group. How are they different from any other random group? Just because Tom Cruise is telling the world that Scientology is the way to go doesn't make me want to get into it. Just because tobacco companies say that smoking isn't all that bad for you and there's no direct link to cancer doesn't make me want to pick up a cigarette. I don't care what people say about being fat, I know I don't particularly want to become fat. What's the big deal?

Take that fatty! :upyours:

I've have no problems with people like that fat guy who does tri-athalons competetively. Obviously he's in good shape, so meh.

It's the tubs of lard who can't climb a flight of steps, and then bitch about how everyone else should 'accept' their lazy lardassedness that piss me off.

It's pretty simple. Figure out how many calories a day you need, then consume less. If you don't want to consume less, use more. I.e. exercise.

Smunkee, that's what I think makes this issue a particularly awkward one to deal with.. how do you articulate a position without just coming off as an "I hate fat people" kind of person. And to be sure this is the ready cover I think that keeps them going on. How can we constructively talk about obesity if everyone who's concerned about it is pegged as an intolerant bigot?
There have been a few hateful and rude "I hate fat people" threds around lately, so you are fighting an uphill battle.

I think people fail to realize that it's a health issue, fat people don't want to be fat, they have either physical or emotional problems that lend themselves to that position. (sometimes both)

I don't really know how not to offend people though, so I am probably not the best to ask.

Obesity is not a disease. it can be a symptom, but only in a very small percentage of cases. Fat is okay, if by fat people mean, not obese, just a little large, its called variation.

But supporting Morbidly obese people? it is their chocie however, but they should be given more opportunity to change.

It is as bad as pro-ANA websites

Obesity is not a disease.
according to the IRS obesity is a disease, and that's all I really care about since I am a tax person LOL

actually, you are right, it's a symptom, but should people really be hated due to symptoms of disease?

I mean if someone has seizures due to high blood pressure do you really hate them for it? I mean even if the seizures are not a fun thing to see?

okay I don't really think I have a point, and everyone should have figured out by now that I am hopped up on nyquil.

I should be able to go to sleep soon... just trying to stay awake til my hubby gets here.....

Fat acceptance is wrong. I think we should all strive to achieve a higher level of physical health, or if we are in top physical shape, to maintain it. There are the cases sometimes medical/emotional, but we can still be active.
*reads the topic*
Oh. Yeah, those guys are wrong. Plain wrong. And to the OP, I feel with you on this. I can't really talk about racism with people that much.

I'm not sure what Smunkee actually said, but I'm not sure why I should care about the fat acceptance group. How are they different from any other random group? Just because Tom Cruise is telling the world that Scientology is the way to go doesn't make me want to get into it. Just because tobacco companies say that smoking isn't all that bad for you and there's no direct link to cancer doesn't make me want to pick up a cigarette. I don't care what people say about being fat, I know I don't particularly want to become fat. What's the big deal?

The big deal is that tens of millions of Americans are fat and many of them are picking up this language and running with it in the face of research. There are social stigmas and then there are facts about what makes a person healthy. Each year there are roughly 300,000 deaths attributable to obesity (and of those attributable, "[m]ore than 80% of the estimated obesity-attributable deaths occurred among individuals with a body mass index of more than 30 kg/m2. (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/282/16/1530?ijkey=73a9d6a600549d98399b0d17f39f747ad10d59d5&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha)") which puts in the realm of heart disease and cancer (though in a different sense, because it ends up causing them). Just google the term "fat acceptance," there are whordes of sites and groups up already and they want to make this a national issue.

It's the tubs of lard who can't climb a flight of steps, and then bitch about how everyone else should 'accept' their lazy lardassedness that piss me off.


Strange, I've seen plenty of fat people in my life, but I've never met a single one who biched about how everyone else should 'accept' their lazy lardassedness.

Perhaps you live in an unusual place?

Anyone here tried to stop being obese? the more obese you are, the harder it is. It's so much easier to go for public acceptance once you reach a point.

Don't pity them, but understand why they can't just 'change'

Anyone here tried to stop being obese? the more obese you are, the harder it is. It's so much easier to go for public acceptance once you reach a point.

Don't pity them, but understand why they can't just 'change'

I am not obese but I think a smoker could make the same argument (though of course it's aknowledged that smoking and obesity aren't the same blah blah blah). I do not know whether this is your point or not, but this is the soft spot opening I think that ought not to be allowed. Because public acceptance is easier does not mean it is healthy or right. Surely you did not mean that, but presenting that as if it is the answer, the conclusion, I think it allows the dismissal of health problems and the simple truth of the wrongness of obesity to slip into acceptance under the radar.

Ouch.

Nice Rebuttal.



By public acceptance, i assume people mean. Despite knowing its not good for you (the extreme cases that are now so common) it just not being an issue. Public acceptence is when there are no longer doctors saying "try to lose some weight" there are no longer health classes in school telling about the dangers.

I can only imagine anything (obesity, smoking etc.) being accepted by those who are obese,smokers, whatever.

(oh come one, you brought up smoking first :P)

There have been a few hateful and rude "I hate fat people" threds around lately, so you are fighting an uphill battle.

I think people fail to realize that it's a health issue, fat people don't want to be fat, they have either physical or emotional problems that lend themselves to that position. (sometimes both)

I don't really know how not to offend people though, so I am probably not the best to ask.

60% of American adults don't have prohibitive physical or emotional problems. They have two other problems, though: Laziness and lack of self-control. Accept that, fatass.

Who cares what a person look like?
Seriously, get your hormones in order if you feel the need to eye up-and-down every woman on the planet if she is a complete beast.

According to this, I should hate all fat people, including my mother and certain members of my family?
Lovely morals you lot have.

Who cares what a person look like?
Seriously, get your hormones in order if you feel the need to eye up-and-down every woman on the planet if she is a complete beast.

According to this, I should hate all fat people, including my mother and certain members of my family?
Lovely morals you lot have.


I hope you are not talking about me, because if you are, you have greatly misunderstood my standing on this.

btw. Love the sinner hate the sin?

Who cares what a person look like?
Seriously, get your hormones in order if you feel the need to eye up-and-down every woman on the planet if she is a complete beast.

According to this, I should hate all fat people, including my mother and certain members of my family?
Lovely morals you lot have.


People need to recognise that being obease is really unhealthy.Your weight is very important to have a healthy body. If someone is too fat or if they are anorexic then it should be dealt with. I agree, fat acceptance is wrong.
No-one here yet had mentioned looks before you brought it up, it was just a disscusion on health really. I don't hate fat people, I also have a close member of my family who is overweight as well as a few friends. I'm guessing most people here have.
Fat people do get a lot of stick (from certain people) and I think namecalling is wrong, and it is good that it is no longer acceptable for this to happen. But I think we should be able to talk about this, even though it is a touchy situation, without giving offence and having you think we hate fat people, just because we think obesity is a bad thing.

60% of American adults don't have prohibitive physical or emotional problems. They have two other problems, though: Laziness and lack of self-control. Accept that, fatass.
60% of American adults aren't obese, so I don't see your point.

also, you call me fatass again and we are going to have problems.

People need to recognise that being obease is really unhealthy.Your weight is very important to have a healthy body. If someone is too fat or if they are anorexic then it should be dealt with. I agree, fat acceptance is wrong.
No-one here yet had mentioned looks before you brought it up, it was just a disscusion on health really. I don't hate fat people, I also have a close member of my family who is overweight as well as a few friends. I'm guessing most people here have.
Fat people do get a lot of stick (from certain people) and I think namecalling is wrong, and it is good that it is no longer acceptable for this to happen. But I think we should be able to talk about this, even though it is a touchy situation, without giving offence and having you think we hate fat people, just because we think obesity is a bad thing.

Wow. I expected a battle or to be called out as a bigot, but instead we get really awesome posts like this. I am encouraged by Nationstates yet

60% of American adults aren't obese, so I don't see your point.

also, you call me fatass again and we are going to have problems.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/288/14/1723?ijkey=2dba157c618f98f1988953b03f274f69e0660db2&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

But 30% are. And 64% of americans are "overweight," so I think (s)he stands on solid ground (except for "fatty")

acceptance of fat people is both good and bad. there are those out there that really are genetically predisposed to obesity, and for those people, acceptance is important. if a person's weight prob. is predetermined, and therefore inevitable, judging them on it is, at the root of it, the same as racism. i say, it's foolish to judge based on factors that one has no control over, like skin color, etc. however, i think people should judge, and judge harshly, people who's shortcomings are there own fault. like those who don't have to be fat. for these retards, acceptance, tolerance, is ludicrous. we shouldn't tolerate any group that has a problem when the problem is in there own hands.

also, look into a book called: "the herbivore's dillema" it talks a great deal about obesity in america and how this country, though not intentfully, is making it's citizen's fat. there is a combination of factors to the problem, but one huge factor is our agricultural policies and the role we allow corn and soy (and corn and soy products) to dominate the food market. almost everything you eat everyday is in some way corn or soy based. i know it sounds unrelated, but the book is very enlightening.

for those who actually read, give the book "thinner" a look. it's vintage stephen king (writing as richard bachman) and its great.

60% of American adults don't have prohibitive physical or emotional problems. They have two other problems, though: Laziness and lack of self-control. Accept that, fatass.
Nice.

Fat people aren’t fun to look at, so don’t. Gluttony is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle and they are free to live that way if they choose. Whatever makes them happy.

I only have a problem with fat people when they either refuse to admit that they are fat or ware skimpy clothes that are made for people one fourth their weight.

Obesity is a very specific condition. I dislike it how all fat people are termed "obese" since it reeks of euphemistic language. Just call them fat people already! Sure, some are obese. But we're not doctors. This isn't a diagnosis. Fat!

Strange, I've seen plenty of fat people in my life, but I've never met a single one who biched about how everyone else should 'accept' their lazy lardassedness.

Perhaps you live in an unusual place?

The US. Stores here have little motorized carts for fat people to sit in and ride around so as to avoid any actual walking.

Also, one of the local commuter buses has to drive out of its way to drop some fat guy off after he threatened to sue.

It's annoying. Stuff your face all you want. Just STFU when your knees explode.

I expected another "I hate fat people" thred, but then I saw




and decided it was actually worth my time to reply. I agree that they are wrong, and that they do nothing to help obese people at all.
They make me almost as sick as pro-ana websites.

I sometimes wonder if the internet really is ruining the world, I mean think back before the internet, nobody knew about this stuff, crackpots were forced to talk to cats and jars of peanut butter......ahhh, the good ole days.

Then I play a little KoL and decide the internet indeed is good, and some people are just stupid. (like the fat acceptance crowd)

You made me laugh and for that I thank you! You made me remember when I was diagnosed with cancer, the first place I went was the internet.

Wrong thing to do, it terrified me, was full of idiot ideas (which I didn't know the difference) and totally confused me with contradictions.

My doctor pretty much gave me a prescription to stay out of the internet for medical info and directed me to a cancer center with counselors and a full (real) library at anyone's disposal to do research in.

I really want to send emails now to those sites and tell them to go buy peanut butter.

Again thanks for the giggle.

The US. Stores here have little motorized carts for fat people to sit in and ride around so as to avoid any actual walking.

Also, one of the local commuter buses has to drive out of its way to drop some fat guy off after he threatened to sue.

It's annoying. Stuff your face all you want. Just STFU when your knees explode.

Well the motorized carts are for old people too. And obnoxious teenagers like me who pretend to be disabled just to get a chance to go WHEEEEEE!!!!

The driver of that bus was bloody gullible. There's no reason at all that anyone has the power to sue a bus company because it WON'T deviate from it's route. That crap wouldn't fly in Chicago. "Get the hell off my bus before pop you like a balloon, Albert!"

And I think the knees are more likely to implode.



Now, I'm overweight. I'm still active, hell, I kept up in double time with a Gulf War II veteran for a few hours at an airsoft game this last weekend. I was tired, but proud of myself. I certainly don't like over-eating. I feel kinda nasty after I snack. "I shoudn't have had that... That was dumb..." But the behavior is kind of conditioned into me. If I'm bored, I look in the fridge when I walk past it. I find myself slapping my wrist sometimes. "Down boy!" If I put some effort into disciplining myself, I could lose 50 pounds, get down to 240, (I'm 6'3") and be a sex god. But I've been lacking that motivation and discipline for years now. It's not that I've accepted being overweight (thankfully not obese), but that I'm just lazy and unmotivated.

Now, when you've got fat people suing McDonald's for making them fat... Well then it's like, "STOP EATING YOU RETARD!" There comes a point where some people just need to be slapped for allowing themselves to let go. In cases where it's a pituitary disorder or something, well, clearly there's not much choice in the matter.

Obesity as a disease? No more than alcoholism is a disease.

http://www.gimpcity.com/how/why-fat-guy.jpg

FAT POWER!

Now, when you've got fat people suing McDonald's for making them fat... Well then it's like, "STOP EATING YOU RETARD!" There comes a point where some people just need to be slapped for allowing themselves to let go. In cases where it's a pituitary disorder or something, well, clearly there's not much choice in the matter.


Oh yah. That pissed me off too.

The bus thing is to do with the whole company. Not the driver. Personally I think they should have had more stones and told him to fuck off.

The diet in this country, by and large, is terrible too. Most people seem to exclusively eat syrup and processed meat. I can have no sympathy.

If obesity is an uncontrollable thing for most people who are obese, how come there weren't the same amount of obese people around in the middle ages?

It may be harder for some people to control their eating and get some exercise, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, except in a small minority cases where there actually is a medical reason why they gain weight.

Personally I wouldn't care about fat acceptance if I lived in the US - it doesn't really effect anyone else, and they can say that they are perfectly healthy and attractive all they want. Doesn't make it true.

However, I really don't want it to spread to places with socialised health care, as obese people are a massive drain and it shouldn't be encouraged. Smokers damage their health too, and thus damage the NHS, but at least they more than make up for it with the tax on cigarettes they pay. Obese people, on the other hand, pay nothing extra, so cost the country a lot of money just because they feel that third cream bun is preferable to their health.

Being fat doesn't make someone a horrible person or anything like that, and to imply such is just mean, but at the same time, obesity is unhealthy (the more obese one is, the more unhealthy), and people who are obese should consider changing their dietary habits and getting more exercise in general. Obviously, one's goal shouldn't be to be rail thin, as that is not healthy for the body either, but to maintain a healthy weight while getting all important nutrients and staying physically active.

All right, did that express my views without hurting anybody's feelings too much? I am slightly overweight myself, and would do well to follow my own advice, lol.

Being fat doesn't make someone a horrible person or anything like that, and to imply such is just mean, but at the same time, obesity is unhealthy (the more obese one is, the more unhealthy), and people who are obese should consider changing their dietary habits and getting more exercise in general. Obviously, one's goal shouldn't be to be rail thin, as that is not healthy for the body either, but to maintain a healthy weight while getting all important nutrients and staying physically active.

All right, did that express my views without hurting anybody's feelings too much? I am slightly overweight myself, and would do well to follow my own advice, lol.

I think if anyone gets hurt feelings from that they need to develop a far far thicker skin :)

If obesity is an uncontrollable thing for most people who are obese, how come there weren't the same amount of obese people around in the middle ages?

Before the industrial revolution people tended to starve a lot. Malnutrition was so widespread that the average height of people in Europe was only about five feet 200 years ago. But if you look at paintings of rich people who could afford to eat you can see some porkers.

It may be harder for some people to control their eating and get some exercise, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, except in a small minority cases where there actually is a medical reason why they gain weight.

Fat people can lose weight. Fat people can eat less. But for most fat people it is not worth it to lose a lot of weight. If you have a fairly average body fat level of say 15% try dropping down to 7% and see how good you feel. You will feel constantly tired, your metabolism will drop and you will always be hungry. The same thing happens when someone who normally has 30% body fat drops down to 15%. Their body fights it in the same way an average person's body will fight dropping down to 7%. So rather than being normal weight and feeling miserable most fat people are better off and will lead happier lives if they stay fairly fat and just take off a few kilos through healthy eating and moderate exercise.

It's sad how most of the posts in this thread linked obesity with overeating and laziness ad nothing else, and how demeaning to obese/overweight some of the posts are.

Some people gain weight because they are ill, due to pregnancy or stress or simply because their hormones suddenly take a turn for the worst for any other reason. Some people can't exercise because of disability. My mother has two problems - due to severe illness and stress afterwards she gained a lot of weight and later on she suffered a tremendous injury to her leg which made her disabled and barely able to walk. She eats very little because most foods are bad for her and still she is obese. My mother is beautiful and she is not lazy or out of control! My father and sister and partner (he lost 35 kilos and then gained a bit back) are all overweight, but they are by no means lazy, they eat very well and exercise when they can (several impairments making them unable to exercise as much as they'd like to). At first glance, you can't tell whether they are "lazy fucks" or if they have some other reason to be overweight.

How many of you "skinny" people exercise and eat well? Will you seriously quit hounding overweight and obese people? It's none of your business and you don't know their reasons for being overweight. I'm saddened when my partner refers to his belly as "disgusting" or when my sister says "well, I don't really have much chance with the guy I like because I'm fat". I went into a screaming frenzy when someone at a train station told my mother and sister to go to Weight Watchers. If you're so worried about other people's health why don't you just go around with a water pistol extinguishing other people's cigarettes and sabotaging liquor stores? Secondhand smoke certainly pisses me off more than seeing someone overweight.

Before the industrial revolution people tended to starve a lot. Malnutrition was so widespread that the average height of people in Europe was only about five feet 200 years ago. But if you look at paintings of rich people who could afford to eat you can see some porkers.

That's my point - people, at least in the lower classes, never got fat because they never had the opportunity to overeat and not get enough exercise. They had to work hard all day, and had very little substinance. If we are to follow the line of logic that everybody has a natural weight and some people are just naturally obese, then surely even when eating little and exercising much some peasants would still end up obese. After all, it's not at all about will power supposedly.



Fat people can lose weight. Fat people can eat less. But for most fat people it is not worth it to lose a lot of weight. If you have a fairly average body fat level of say 15% try dropping down to 7% and see how good you feel. You will feel constantly tired, your metabolism will drop and you will always be hungry. The same thing happens when someone who normally has 30% body fat drops down to 15%. Their body fights it in the same way an average person's body will fight dropping down to 7%. So rather than being normal weight and feeling miserable most fat people are better off and will lead happier lives if they stay fairly fat and just take off a few kilos through healthy eating and moderate exercise.

I used to weigh around 14 stone a year or so ago until I suddenly realised I was kinda fat, and after a couple of months of will power I got down to 12, which i've easily maintained. I don't feel hungry or tired at all - in fact I get hungry less often and am more energetic. I realise that the only reason I was heavier before was because I ate far too much and did very little exercise - mostly it was due to ignorance. I didn't know how calorific some of the stuff I was eating was.


Regardless, I really have a problem with people who are a little overweight - I do acknowledge that for some people weight loss is harder, and realistically some people can only slim down to a certain degree. However, in the vast vast majority of cases those who are actually obese can very easily get down to a less dangerous weight if they put the effort in. It's a shame that some people justify obesity for them and claim it's all biological, which just encourages them to take a fatalistic attitude and keep eating.

if the person is happy and (at least relatively) healthy i don't see why anyone should care about their weight...i mean, if you don't like it, you don't have to look at it. my girlfriend is pretty overweight (size 20 i think) but (despite the fact i'm actually pretty thin) i think she's the most beautiful thing ever :fluffle: her personality is much more important to me than her looks,but i think she looks stunning anyway

...ok we probably shouldn't promote being fat but society shouldnt judge people so harshly for being fat either...if their doctors tell them they need to lose weight for health reasons, fair enough, otherwise it's noone else's business.

It's sad how most of the posts in this thread linked obesity with overeating and laziness ad nothing else, and how demeaning to obese/overweight some of the posts are.

Some people gain weight because they are ill, due to pregnancy or stress or simply because their hormones suddenly take a turn for the worst for any other reason. Some people can't exercise because of disability. My mother has two problems - due to severe illness and stress afterwards she gained a lot of weight and later on she suffered a tremendous injury to her leg which made her disabled and barely able to walk. She eats very little because most foods are bad for her and still she is obese. My mother is beautiful and she is not lazy or out of control! My father and sister and partner (he lost 35 kilos and then gained a bit back) are all overweight, but they are by no means lazy, they eat very well and exercise when they can (several impairments making them unable to exercise as much as they'd like to). At first glance, you can't tell whether they are "lazy fucks" or if they have some other reason to be overweight.

How many of you "skinny" people exercise and eat well? Will you seriously quit hounding overweight and obese people? It's none of your business and you don't know their reasons for being overweight. I'm saddened when my partner refers to his belly as "disgusting" or when my sister says "well, I don't really have much chance with the guy I like because I'm fat". I went into a screaming frenzy when someone at a train station told my mother and sister to go to Weight Watchers. If you're so worried about other people's health why don't you just go around with a water pistol extinguishing other people's cigarettes and sabotaging liquor stores? Secondhand smoke certainly pisses me off more than seeing someone overweight.

It's interesting that you find every nook and angle for being fat, the situations that we weren't talking about, and then argue about people giving them a hard time. You are kidding yourself if you beleive millions of cases aren't due to environment or lifestyle, and to voluntary not think about that and to force our discussion to be about disabled people and pregnant people... honestly, what the hell do you think you are contributing by sidetracking it this?

That's exactly the problem. The issue is loaded with stigmas that enter the discussion. Note that I didn't talk about diabled people or about how people look or any of that, but that became the only thing you guys argue about. THAT, YOUR inability to stay on point is what's at issue here.

I'll be back with more in a bit, classwork to do.

Fat acceptance is wrong. I think we should all strive to achieve a higher level of physical health, or if we are in top physical shape, to maintain it. There are the cases sometimes medical/emotional, but we can still be active.
*reads the topic*
Oh. Yeah, those guys are wrong. Plain wrong. And to the OP, I feel with you on this. I can't really talk about racism with people that much.
Health and fat are not mutually exclusive. In fact, our current standard of "healthy" weight does not match up to scientific evaluations of health; the people living the longest in our current modern world are individuals who have BMIs around 35, even though our standard for "healthy" BMI is around 25.

Health and fat are not mutually exclusive. In fact, our current standard of "healthy" weight does not match up to scientific evaluations of health; the people living the longest in our current modern world are individuals who have BMIs around 35, even though our standard for "healthy" BMI is around 25.

I just want to let you know you have your facts completely wrong.

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band112/b112-6.html
This study makes explicit the decreased life expectancy associated with obesity. Those with BMI of 30 kg/sq metre or more can expect to have seven fewer years of life than their slimmer brothers and sisters.

If that isn't enough, here is another (PDF):
http://www.wellsource.com/360/pdf/Body_Mass_Index_Chart.pdf
Women have the best life expectancy at a BMI of about 22-23.
Men have the best longevity at a BMI of about 24-25

Note that they are not saying just that a BMI of 24-25 or 22-23 are the "healthy" ones, they are saying that those are the ones with the best life expectancy (though I'm not sure what else "healthy" would have meant).

If you could have said health and fat are not necissarily mutually exclusive, you'd have my support and agreement. Who was saying "why should I care"? Here and now we have a perfect example of "fat acceptance" being taken to a direction toward dishonesty, that makes an uncomfortable and frankly, wrong, assertion about why we are concerned with fat.

And honestly, are we supposed to stop and care about this trifling pedantic point (which I bet 99% of us already agree with in the first place and that the second you mention this you are only wasing all of our time), are we supposed to stop and take concern with this when there are tens of millions of obese people who increase their chances at encumbering REAL health problems like cancer and diabetes? Don't pose around telling us to care about those that are healthy and then from that attempt to leave us with the conclusion that everything is ok because many fat people are healthy (yeah yeah I know you didn't mean that).

(BTW all, I realized I'm overweight. My BMI is 25.84 (the cutoff is 25)... irony!)

I expected another
They make me almost as sick as pro-ana websites.
Ewwww...

if the person is happy and (at least relatively) healthy i don't see why anyone should care about their weight...i mean, if you don't like it, you don't have to look at it. my girlfriend is pretty overweight (size 20 i think) but (despite the fact i'm actually pretty thin) i think she's the most beautiful thing ever :fluffle: her personality is much more important to me than her looks,but i think she looks stunning anyway

...ok we probably shouldn't promote being fat but society shouldnt judge people so harshly for being fat either...if their doctors tell them they need to lose weight for health reasons, fair enough, otherwise it's noone else's business.

Yes yes yes and yes. I think that's been prefaced and acknowledged many times before but if not, yes. I was hoping that my original post was a perfect example of not talking about judging fat people but just addressing the facts (tell me if it wasn't and where I went wrong).

This is the problem. Stop giving us the dreary ever echoing mind numbingly predictably expected condescending lecture on our need to accept and not judge people. Who on earth disagrees with this? Are you really saying anything more significant or different from what fourth grade teachers tell kids about Martin Luther King?

Or are you really saying that people SAY they don't disagree but that subconscious or unspoken inhibitions remain despite what people say they beleive? If so that's a great point but you've said nothing to further it to help us understand it, and if that was our point you would have gone beyond just telling us "don't judge fat people" and for a lesson more subtle than what you actually posted.

Don't just judge them on being fat, ok. But that's different from understanding that there are proven links between depression and obesity, or heart disease and obesity.

The problem is we are caught up kicking up dust and emphasizing this lesson, but its to our own detriment because THAT discussion gets in the way of the more important one, about health problems that people are denying or don't understand (like that guy who said people live longer with a BMI of 35). And honestly, right here and now, that's what happened. The discussion of not judging people became forefront and got in the way of the trickier topic I was trying to go for in this post (though I know you can post whatever you want yes, but I think you beleived you were more on topic than you actually were)

I agree that fat acceptance is wrong.

However, that is no reason for you to go up to a fat person and yell HAY FATTIE YOUR FAT FAT FAT FAT GO HANG YOURSELF YOU FUCKING TUB OF LARD! Trust me, I used to be obese, and when people made fun of me, it made me feel like absolute shit and made me want to eat more.

I'm not saying you should be completely tolerant of fat people, in fact, I think its good that you want to help them out. Just, if you're gonig to make a remark about how they shoudl lose weight, try phrasing it nicely in a way that wont devastate their feelings.

Fat acceptance could mean one of two things. You could either be referring to accepting fat people (which is OK) or accepting the fact that people are fat (not OK).
Damnit, this is hard to explain.

It's one thing to accept others regardless of weight. It's another to accept that weight. Just because you should accept others doesn't mean that fat is good. It just means that it is acceptable if the risks are understood. Does this make sens?

Look, I'll give you an example. Doing drugs is often dangerous (though some will disagree). However, plenty of people do it. There is no reason not to accept those who take drugs. It is, however, not right to accept the action of taking drugs (though once again, some/many will disagree).

Grr. Examples are bad when I disagree with them. Whatever. You know what I mean, I hope.

EDIT:While I was typing this, Clobberedfetus apparently explained it much better than I did. Just read his post.

It's sad how most of the posts in this thread linked obesity with overeating and laziness ad nothing else, and how demeaning to obese/overweight some of the posts are.
It's easy to argue against a straw man. "Nothing" else? Are you sure they weren'st just concerning themselves with overeating and laziness but also understood that there are genetic causes. I'm sure the original posters you speak of would admit this readily, (which would then mean you don't have a case) and their points would still stand.

Would you say that obesity isn't ever connected to overeating and laziness? Of course not (but perhaps I could assume that that is what you are saying and just argue against that... kind of like what your post is doing.) But no, you mean there are other factors, like genetics, metabolism. Sure. Some cases are because of those... moving on....

Fat people can lose weight. Fat people can eat less. But for most fat people it is not worth it to lose a lot of weight. If you have a fairly average body fat level of say 15% try dropping down to 7% and see how good you feel. You will feel constantly tired, your metabolism will drop and you will always be hungry. The same thing happens when someone who normally has 30% body fat drops down to 15%. Their body fights it in the same way an average person's body will fight dropping down to 7%. So rather than being normal weight and feeling miserable most fat people are better off and will lead happier lives if they stay fairly fat and just take off a few kilos through healthy eating and moderate exercise.

I think you are going too far to say that you know anyone trying to diet would feel miserable. And frankly on Nationstates I'd like to know the facts behind this before I lend it my support. Just using intuitive common sense I know that obesity is often linked to lethargy (not all and every time ever don't try to pin me down as if I'm saying that) and its by getting in tune with your metabolism that you get more energy. I don't have facts on this here (though I'd bet they are in my favor), but it sure seems much more sensible than thinking for most people its just not worth it.

Before the industrial revolution people tended to starve a lot. Malnutrition was so widespread that the average height of people in Europe was only about five feet 200 years ago. But if you look at paintings of rich people who could afford to eat you can see some porkers.

I think what Laernis (or however you spell it) meant, and how he would respond, is that even after the revolution people starved less but obesity was going up. Even say from 1980 in relation to now, the levels of obesity are going up. How can it just be metabolism or genetics if there have been such huge changes in obesity in just the past 20 or so years?

And a handy graph for your viewing pleasure:
http://www.mrc-hnr.cam.ac.uk/research/obesity/obesity.html

Ugh, I hate the fat acceptance movement. Talk about bad science, they're up there with the flat earthers and stormfronters if you ask me in terms of the amount of science they get wrong. The diet industry conspiracy theory is just absurd; they would have you believe that McDonalds, et al. stand around and do nothing about anti-fat attitudes while the diet industry feverishly bribes every scientist it can find.

I had the misfortune of debating these "anti-sizists" a while back. I was outnumbered a dozen to one and still managed to hold my own until a post-modernist bullshitter showed up and started claiming our attitudes on fat come from Plato and tried to deconstruct modern medicine as sexist or something. At that point, I just left.