NationStates Jolt Archive

Dog=/=Person

Cow=/=Person

There is a difference, morally and intellectually between people and animals.

Any persons trying to say killing a cow is the same as killing a person are holding ridicolous beliefs.

That is all.

No shit, Sherlock. Care to waste more of our time and forum space?

Actually, there is one religion that in practiced in India I beleive that worships cows as divine dieties. I don't beleive in that, but if someone on here does, you are only asking to be flamed. Please try to respect others next time.

No shit, Sherlock. Care to waste more of our time and forum space?

I agree.

This has less to do with "killing something inferior compared to killing something superior" and more to do with "killing something other than one of us compared to killing one of us, regardless of who is superior on an unbiased scale". If a new species was discovered underground that was superior to us in every concieveable way(hence why they live underground as opposed to conquering the surface and killing just about everything), nobody outside the environmentally caring community would give a damn if they all died off seconds away from finding a cure to every concieveable problem in the world. It would just be another non-human species dying off, regardless of actual use to the human race.

No shit, Sherlock. Care to waste more of our time and forum space?


well PETA would disagree i think...

Whatever happened to commenting on the thread at hand? Maybe a "hey, welcome to the forums!"

Bolol sad :(

Anyway, I would agree with you insofar that no unnecessary force or cruelty should be shown to any living creature, sentient or otherwise. We may need their meat in order to survive (essential vitamins and minerals), but no point in making them suffer.

Bolol sad :(

*points and laughs, then kicks*

Dog=/=Person

Cow=/=Person

As a biologist I am forced to agree with you.

There is a difference, morally and intellectually between people and animals.

I wonder what the moral difference is? If by morality you mean an internalized set of responses that govern behaviour incertain situations, well we can see these in animals, although not quite as advanced as in humans. I would call morality one form of learning and animals can definately learn.


EDIT: Full disclosure - I'm not actually a biologist, I just thought the statement might amuse someone.

*points and laughs, then kicks*

*grows to 30 times his size then brings a fist down upon Fass*

*grows to 30 times his size then brings a fist down upon Fass*

*is fisted, moaning with pleasure*

Dog=/=Person

Cow=/=Person

There is a difference, morally and intellectually between people and animals.

Any persons trying to say killing a cow is the same as killing a person are holding ridicolous beliefs.

That is all.

Well, given that cows are usually killed to eat and humans usually aren't...

*is fisted, moaning with pleasure*

O_o

Damn...touche' dear Fass...

*knocks self out*

Dog=/=Person

Cow=/=Person

Yes.

There is a difference, morally and intellectually between people and animals.

Assertion with no argument behind it.

Any persons trying to say killing a cow is the same as killing a person are holding ridicolous beliefs.

Emotive assertion with no argument behind it.

*points and laughs, then kicks*
*giggles, joins in on the fun*

*giggles, joins in on the fun*

*Spawns a H&K MG36 and lays down the pain*

*is fisted, moaning with pleasure*
You have just earned a huge cookie.

Now, excuse me while I..

*runs in horror*

*Spawns a H&K MG36 and lays down the pain*
Did I just get laid?

*is fisted, moaning with pleasure*

'upon', not 'into'.

'upon', not 'into'.

It starts with upon, if ever briefly, and then takes its course into. You must be new to this.

It starts with upon, if ever briefly, and then takes its course into. You must be new to this.

Surely the 'upon' depends on the spacial orientation? It could equally well be 'behind' or 'below'.

Surely the 'upon' depends on the spacial orientation? It could equally well be 'behind' or 'below'.

Some of us are just more eager.

No shit, Sherlock. Care to waste more of our time and forum space?
I just about died laughing when I read your snappy comeback, Fass.

Dog=/=Person

Cow=/=Person

There is a difference, morally and intellectually between people and animals.

Any persons trying to say killing a cow is the same as killing a person are holding ridicolous beliefs.

That is all.

Yes you are correct that dogs and cows are not human beings. Although, I would disagree with you about animal and human life being different.

In fact it is exactly the same isn't it? I mean humans are animals aren't they? We all have hearts, brains, blood, organs, bones, skin... - non-human animals also exhibit problem-solving abilities as well as emotions.

When you say there is a difference morally, I really dont follow you and you have offered nothing to clear that up. Just saying it doesn't make it true.

Although I have to say... you hurt or kill my cat, and you will be treated as if you hurt my wife, mother, brother, sister... In other words, you will regret it because my cat is family; it has feelings and intelligence.

Also, I am a vegetarian. I don't think that it is right to bring so much suffering to the animals in the really large industrial farms, although I don't think it's right to tell others how they should feel about things and dont want to force anyone to change their diet in anyway. Having said that, I am all for free-range organic meats, or people who hunt for their food.

I just about died laughing when I read your snappy comeback, Fass.

Only just about? Aww.

Yes you are correct that dogs and cows are not human beings. Although, I would disagree with you about animal and human life being different.

In fact it is exactly the same isn't it? I mean humans are animals aren't they? We all have hearts, brains, blood, organs, bones, skin... - non-human animals also exhibit problem-solving abilities as well as emotions.

When you say there is a difference morally, I really dont follow you and you have offered nothing to clear that up. Just saying it doesn't make it true.

Although I have to say... you hurt or kill my cat, and you will be treated as if you hurt my wife, mother, brother, sister... In other words, you will regret it because my cat is family; it has feelings and intelligence.

Also, I am a vegetarian. I don't think that it is right to bring so much suffering to the animals in the really large industrial farms, although I don't think it's right to tell others how they should feel about things and dont want to force anyone to change their diet in anyway. Having said that, I am all for free-range organic meats, or people who hunt for their food.
That's pretty much what I've had said as well, but you put it so much better than I ever could. Although I don't have a cat.

Going further - I agree that intellectually, humans are superior to other animals. However, to say that we are morally superior is debateable at best (and so, I shall debate it). We are one of very few species to wage war on our own kind (I've only ever read that ants are the only other animal to wage war on their own kind, but that could be wrong). We voluntarily kill other members of our species for ideological reasons. Based on that, and that alone, I do not believe we can claim moral superiority over other animals.

That's pretty much what I've had said as well, but you put it so much better than I ever could. Although I don't have a cat.

Going further - I agree that intellectually, humans are superior to other animals. However, to say that we are morally superior is debateable at best (and so, I shall debate it). We are one of very few species to wage war on our own kind (I've only ever read that ants are the only other animal to wage war on their own kind, but that could be wrong). We voluntarily kill other members of our species for ideological reasons. Based on that, and that alone, I do not believe we can claim moral superiority over other animals.

All animals wage war, they just tend to have very small, inorganized social structures and are therefore incapable of making war in the same manner as more ordered societies. And if anything, punishment for ideological reasons is a sign of moral awareness at least, if not superiority.

All animals wage war, they just tend to have very small, inorganized social structures and are therefore incapable of making war in the same manner as more ordered societies. And if anything, punishment for ideological reasons is a sign of moral awareness at least, if not superiority.
Moral awareness =/= moral superiority.

Harold Shipman (google him if you don't know) had a moral awareness as to what he was doing, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would be prepared to argue that he was morally superior to a fly on heap of cow shit.

I think you're mistaking 'fighting' (even to the death) and 'waging war'. The former is not the same as the latter. Most (if not all) pack animals have extremely organised social structures, yet will rarely continue to fight other packs of their own species over a period of time.

Dog=/=Person

Cow=/=Person

There is a difference, morally and intellectually between people and animals.

Any persons trying to say killing a cow is the same as killing a person are holding ridicolous beliefs.

That is all.

Yes - there's a difference between 'animal' life and 'human' life.

But it's nothing that a little Barbecue Sauce can't cover...

All animals wage war, they just tend to have very small, inorganized social structures and are therefore incapable of making war in the same manner as more ordered societies.

Oysters wage war?

Yes - there's a difference between 'animal' life and 'human' life.

But it's nothing that a little Barbecue Sauce can't cover...


you know, that reminds me of a shirt i saw once. "there is room for all god's creatures, right next to my mashed potatoes." :D

Any persons trying to say killing a cow is the same as killing a person are holding ridicolous beliefs.

Similarly, anyone trying to say that legalizing gay marriage will lead us down a road where people will wed animals hold similarly ridiculous beliefs.

Similarly, anyone trying to say that legalizing gay marriage will lead us down a road where people will wed animals hold similarly ridiculous beliefs.

I thought this person was familiar. Dongara = Serapindal?

Similarly, anyone trying to say that legalizing gay marriage will lead us down a road where people will wed animals hold similarly ridiculous beliefs.
http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW04-19-06.jpg

see panel 7.

well PETA would disagree i think...

Man, I don't. (http://www.petakillsanimals.com/)

Oysters wage war?

Yeah, the East Atlantic Conflict of 1973, killing hundreds of thousands, not to mention the undocumented civilian casualties in the cod population.

Not many know about this incident.

Dog=/=Person

Cow=/=Person

There is a difference, morally and intellectually between people and animals.

Any persons trying to say killing a cow is the same as killing a person are holding ridicolous beliefs.

That is all.


What exactly is the point of your retarded post? That human life is the most valuable? NO life, human or animal, has any real value. :rolleyes:

What exactly is the point of your retarded post? That human life is the most valuable? NO life, human or animal, has any real value. :rolleyes:

no value? do you have friends? family? children? do you not value thier lives?

no value? do you have friends? family? children? do you not value thier lives?

Ah - I believe we are here referring to an 'intrinsic' value.

Sure, family, friends... even pets and livestock, have 'subjective' values, to US... but what is their intrinsic 'worth'?

Having been involved in agriculture most of my life, There are many similarities between animals and humans. A cow that loses her calf grieves. Calves play like children. Animals have the same emotions as humans, though I doubt as deep. After a certain age, a calf become part of the herd, rejected by the mother, protected by herd instinct at the same level as any other member of the herd.

Yet I recognize that humans are natural omnivours. Meat is as much a part of our diet as it is to a dog or cat. I also recognize that without the aid of humans most of the domesticated animals would be extinct. We (animals and humans) made an unconscience deal thousands of years ago. Humans would protect the species but in return the animals would give up their young to keep the human species alive. Survival of both species dependent on the other.

Yet animals are not the only life we kill and eat. Plants made the same deal. Without humans plants would also go extinct. In return humans kill the young (seed), of those living beings. Or they kill the majority of the plants themselves. Both species survive because of the protection of one and the sacrifice of the other.

I have worked for hours keeping an animal alive and healthy. At the same time I understood it's ultimate fate. I also understood that it's life would give life to other humans.

It matters not what humans eat. In order to stay alive, humans kill. They kill animals or they kill plants, life is life. The question is do they honor the sacrifice of what they kill in order to stay alive. Do they consume that life with respect or do they consume that life with contempt and waste? Do they limit the killing to a healthy level of intake (killing)?

A huge share of the food produced, (the life sacrificed) is wasted without thought.

We're different species yes, but there's not really much difference. Humans are mammals, so are cows. Genetically there's not a huge difference.

The fun thing, once you start thinking, and asking questions is, at what point does something become human enough to not kill it for food? Is it genetics? Intelligence? Or species?

I mean, is a chimp human enough not to eat? Is killing a chimp wrong?
How about dogs?
Cats?
Mice?
Lobster?
A really stupid person? I mean severely retarded, IQ in the low double digits, are they still human?

How about plants? Yes they're a wildly different lifeform, but they can outlive humans by thousands of years in some cases. Hell they could be intelligent in a way beyond our ability to ever notice because it's on a different time scale.

The arbitrary human catagorization of things that refuse to fit neatly into either A or B is absurd.


Why is the slaughter of a field of grass ignored, yet the slaughter of the same number of animals decried?


Yes, I have entirely too much free time to think. Hell I used to ponder why light bulbs could even work. (Answer, Photons have no mass, thus no relativistic effects from their speed)

Although I have to say... you hurt or kill my cat, and you will be treated as if you hurt my wife, mother, brother, sister... In other words, you will regret it because my cat is family; it has feelings and intelligence.


I know a girl that died because she swerved to miss a cat.

If I have a chance I will avoid killing your cat, but it's still a cat.

If someone asks, "should I ditch a car to aviod a cat?" the answer is "NO". But if they ask, "should I ditch a car to avoid a child?" The answer is "YES". Survival of the species. A natural instinct in all animals.

I should point out I have no qualms at all about eating a steak, porkchops, fish, or well any particular kind of animal food. Also I'm not a cannibal.

Dog=/=Person

Cow=/=Person

There is a difference, morally and intellectually between people and animals.

Any persons trying to say killing a cow is the same as killing a person are holding ridicolous beliefs.

That is all.


Well ofcourse, but I have met quite a few people that I feel doesn't deserve the respect I'd give to an animal. As for animal testing.. for it. Man was given this earth and everything in it. There is nothing that grows or lives that does not have a purpose. Exploiting for profit and power is all together another subject.

Well ofcourse, but I have met quite a few people that I feel doesn't deserve the respect I'd give to an animal. As for animal testing.. for it. Man was given this earth and everything in it. There is nothing that grows or lives that does not have a purpose. Exploiting for profit and power is all together another subject.


Man was given nothing. Man is however quite adept at taking. The only provision is we musn't allow our avarice destroy us.

I thought this person was familiar. Dongara = Serapindal?

Oh, I know. I also know Serapindal has used the argument I just called ridiculous. It was really my roundabout way of calling him a retard.

Well in my belief we were given this earth and everything in it. To expolit it for profit/greed and power however was not the intent.

Similarly, anyone trying to say that legalizing gay marriage will lead us down a road where people will wed animals hold similarly ridiculous beliefs.

Even though I agree with that, I fail to see why this is relevant to the topic.

Oh, I know. I also know Serapindal has used the argument I just called ridiculous. It was really my roundabout way of calling him a retard.

Oh, he seems to be changing his story...

It should be noted that virtually all intelligent animals avoid killing their own kind; deer will butt heads with their own kind but gore other animals in the side, piranhas will use their teeth on pretty much anything but fight each other with their tails, rattlesnakes only wrestle each other and don't bite, etc, etc, etc... Even male lions will "defeat" or "shame" a weaker male, takings its pride rather then outright killing it. Of course there are exceptions (such as some sharks which will cannibalize its own kind) but generally speaking there is a strong instinct regarding the preservation of an animals own species. It's perfectly natural to place more value on one's own kind, inferiority or superiority has nothing to do with it.

Yes, even humans have this same instinct. During WWII only approximately 20% soldiers would fire on an exposed enemy. Machine guns, explosives, and other less personal weapons (flamethrowers and bombs for instance) claimed the most lives. Of course, this instinct obviously posed a problem and was essentially corrected. Due to psychological conditioning in military training, the fire rate for the average soldier was up to 90% during Vietnam. It takes willful conditioning to break down ordinary man's "morals" [which are as much a part of our evolution as killing] and turn him into a killer, whether that is provided directly by an organization or indirectly by a person's environment doesn't really matter.

It should also be noted that Humans have proven themselves to be infinitely ingenious at creating and using devices to kill and dominate their fellow human beings. The desire to kill is as much a part of being human as the resistance. At the end of the day, both are facets of evolution. The resistance being self-preservation and perpetuation and the desire is good old fashion "survival of the fittest." The battlefield is the ultimate realm of Darwinian natural selection and the weapons and techniques that have evolved along with us show this very clearly. Anything that is effective is copied and perpetuated; anything ineffective results in death, defeat, and extinction.

Back on topic, human beings are omnivores and we always have and likely always will slaughter animals to insure our own survival. Equality has fuck all to do with that. We kill, we consume, we dominate, we expand, and we compete with ourselves… or we have someone else do it for us. At the end of the day, these people who propose we regard animals in the same light as our own kind are simply using their ability to defy their own nature. This is as human as anything else we do, we can choose do to something completely against our own self-interest if we really want to... Whether that choice is motivated by reason or stupidity doesn't really matter to the person making it.

Yeah, animals are better than people.

no value? do you have friends? family? children? do you not value thier lives?

Personally Yes. I meant in the broader, world sense. Are the refugees being massacred in Darfour valuable? Are the American soldiers being sent to their deaths by Dubya for oil valuable? How about aborted fetuses, are they valuable?

The answer is, no. :rolleyes:

Any persons trying to say killing a cow is the same as killing a person are holding ridicolous beliefs.

However, that doesn't mean needlessly killing and torturing animals is a perfectly fine thing to do - something a lot of people tend to conveniently "forget".

Aside: the ease with which you seem to be using the word "ridiculous" to say "people that think and value things differently than me" scares me.

all "beliefs" are in a sense "rediculous". not that there's anything rediculous about the possible, even probable existence of nontangable forces and beings. rather that while it ought to be obvious that all of our collectied knowledge put togather cannot possibly be expected to encompass all real possibilities, it is, or ougt to be, just as obvious that what we don't know, does NOT begin and end with what anyone thinks they know about it.

yes it is true that humans are the only species on planet earth that so surroundes itself with its own artifacts as to forget and even sometimes completely loose sight of its connectedness with the web of life and its utterdependence upon the interconnectedness of its proccessess.

this is not and does not however, form or require a MORAL distinction; only one of observable circumstance.

i don't however put carnivours, human or otherwise, in the same catigory as premeditated gratuitous killers of members of their own species.

neither do i condem veganism's good hearted good intentions no see any sort of intrinsic harm in them.

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