NationStates Jolt Archive

Have you ever had those strange spells where communication seems hopelessly blocked? For example, you use a word with a particular meaning in mind, but the recipient of the word takes it in another way, and off you are...not understanding one another, and not really managing to communicate well. This kind of thing can lead to serious conflict! Often you don't even realise that there is a difference in meanings, and both sides are a bit confused as to why the other can't see their point of view.

How many of you stop, and take stock of what is going wrong? Are you able to recognise when something has gone awry in a conversation, and are you able to clarify yourselves? Obviously, the person you're talking to needs to do the same or it won't work...but I wonder how many misunderstandings occur because we expect people to read our minds...(and it's not just the ladies doing this!)

Depends. I've had those kinds of runins before. If it seems an innocent misunderstanding, I usually try to figure out what went wrong. It's amazing how disagreements can arise out of nothing.

But then again, sometimes nothing is a really cool hand. ;)

Have you ever had those strange spells where communication seems hopelessly blocked? For example, you use a word with a particular meaning in mind, but the recipient of the word takes it in another way, and off you are...not understanding one another, and not really managing to communicate well. This kind of thing can lead to serious conflict! Often you don't even realise that there is a difference in meanings, and both sides are a bit confused as to why the other can't see their point of view.

How many of you stop, and take stock of what is going wrong? Are you able to recognise when something has gone awry in a conversation, and are you able to clarify yourselves? Obviously, the person you're talking to needs to do the same or it won't work...but I wonder how many misunderstandings occur because we expect people to read our minds...(and it's not just the ladies doing this!)

In those situations, I try to do that. I think the situation you describe should not be confused with those situations where a poster implies something intentionally and then when a person argues against that point suggests they never intended to imply said point. Context is an important tool and as readers of a post and as writers of a post I think it is important to consider the context of the post in order to be more clear in our posts and in our understanding of the posts of others.

We do have the unfortunate problem of missing inflection and the possibility of typos. However, I've read many books where there is obviously no inflection to help me out and the occasional typo and I've rarely had to call the author to figure out what they were trying to say.

Have you ever had those strange spells where communication seems hopelessly blocked? For example, you use a word with a particular meaning in mind, but the recipient of the word takes it in another way, and off you are...not understanding one another, and not really managing to communicate well. This kind of thing can lead to serious conflict! Often you don't even realise that there is a difference in meanings, and both sides are a bit confused as to why the other can't see their point of view.

How many of you stop, and take stock of what is going wrong? Are you able to recognise when something has gone awry in a conversation, and are you able to clarify yourselves? Obviously, the person you're talking to needs to do the same or it won't work...but I wonder how many misunderstandings occur because we expect people to read our minds...(and it's not just the ladies doing this!)


Are you trying to tell me something?

Hard to say, when talking with peers i expect sharing enough associations to make some things understood without explicitly mentioning them. In a heterogenous group like the generalites i'd rather be blunt and explaining.

Have you ever had those strange spells where communication seems hopelessly blocked? For example, you use a word with a particular meaning in mind, but the recipient of the word takes it in another way, and off you are...not understanding one another, and not really managing to communicate well. This kind of thing can lead to serious conflict! Often you don't even realise that there is a difference in meanings, and both sides are a bit confused as to why the other can't see their point of view.

How many of you stop, and take stock of what is going wrong? Are you able to recognise when something has gone awry in a conversation, and are you able to clarify yourselves? Obviously, the person you're talking to needs to do the same or it won't work...but I wonder how many misunderstandings occur because we expect people to read our minds...(and it's not just the ladies doing this!)

Why are you trying tell people what to do? You want people to take responsibility for people with poor reading comprehension? What a terrible idea. No, don't bother explaining further. It's perfectly clear to me what you're trying to say and I'm tired of you telling me it's my fault that generalites don't know how to read.

Are you trying to tell me something?
I'm not sure...do you want me to be trying to tell you something?

...but I wonder how many misunderstandings occur because we expect people to read our minds...(and it's not just the ladies doing this!)I just reread this...
Sounds to me like you're saying that when men don't guess what women want, they're being obtuse, but when women don't guess what men want, it's because men falsely assume their minds can be read... :p

I speak the Universal Language; Groin Kicks. :D

I was having a 'duh' night last night, and I kept losing the context of what my husband was saying. A couple of years ago, this would have escalated into a full-blown screaming match, but we've gotten to know each other well enough that we no longer jump to conclusions (well, as often anyway).

So he says to me..."did you notice I shortened the seat belt?"

The other day he'd been talking about how the girl's car seats were too loose, so I thought he meant that. I said I hadn't noticed, it seemed the same, and we discussed it for a while until I mentioned the car seats and he said, "What the hell? I was talking about the high chair...you know, the one you picked your daughter up out of just a second before I mentioned the belt?"

Then he used the word dark to describe a movie, and I thought he meant dark as in scary or ominous...but he was telling me that the screen was too dark...we had this weird circular conversation for like ten minutes before we realised we weren't even talking about the same thing.

As stupid as it sounds, this kind of thing is pretty common...the kind of weird misunderstandings between couples that can lead to trouble.

I speak the Universal Language; Groin Kicks. :D

When I glanced at this post, I read "groin licks".

*shudder*

I was having a 'duh' night last night, and I kept losing the context of what my husband was saying. A couple of years ago, this would have escalated into a full-blown screaming match, but we've gotten to know each other well enough that we no longer jump to conclusions (well, as often anyway).

So he says to me..."did you notice I shortened the seat belt?"

The other day he'd been talking about how the girl's car seats were too loose, so I thought he meant that. I said I hadn't noticed, it seemed the same, and we discussed it for a while until I mentioned the car seats and he said, "What the hell? I was talking about the high chair...you know, the one you picked your daughter up out of just a second before I mentioned the belt?"

Then he used the word dark to describe a movie, and I thought he meant dark as in scary or ominous...but he was telling me that the screen was too dark...we had this weird circular conversation for like ten minutes before we realised we weren't even talking about the same thing.

As stupid as it sounds, this kind of thing is pretty common...the kind of weird misunderstandings between couples that can lead to trouble.
... and make-up sex.

... and make-up sex.Not always.

I'm not sure...do you want me to be trying to tell you something?

That depends on whether you want me to want you to be trying to tell me something.

I think that women quite often (not always) rely on intuition to read between the lines, whereas men quite often just take what is said at face value. Then women get upset that the in-between stuff got lost...or make assumptions about what men are saying. Men do it too...so I've seen how bizarre the interpretations can be. The point is to stop the mind-reading, and to just be open about what the heck you want. It's harder than it sounds.

... and make-up sex.

No, real sex, not made up sex. Can't you be clear about this?

That depends on whether you want me to want you to be trying to tell me something.
You need to ask yourself whether you value me enough to want me to want you to want me to trying to be telling you something.

... and make-up sex.
Is that the kind that involves lipstick and mascara?

I think that women quite often (not always) rely on intuition to read between the lines, whereas men quite often just take what is said at face value. Then women get upset that the in-between stuff got lost...or make assumptions about what men are saying. Men do it too...so I've seen how bizarre the interpretations can be. The point is to stop the mind-reading, and to just be open about what the heck you want. It's harder than it sounds.

That's why all arguments should be had naked. Clothing and make-up tends to obscure the body language that helps us read the context of a conversation.

For example, I know most of the reason I'm upset with every girl I've dated or wanted to date is because that I can't see her body language unobscured by clothing. I know it's the reason I get upset with Sinuhue most often. ;)

Note: The first paragraph is semi-serious. I think that as human beings we make a strong effort to obscure our body language. We learn throughout our lives to hide what we're thinking and then get mad when people can't figure it out.

Other than those events you listed, was there any particular reason why you started this thread, Sin?

Is that the kind that involves lipstick and mascara?

You know it does, baby.

But then, outside of relationships, there is the kind of misunderstanding that I often have with Alien Born...where I'm not entirely sure we're meaning the same thing with the words we use...so I spend half the time trying to translate things into AB speak, and back to Sinuhue speak...meanwhile forgetting what the original topic was!

Other than those events you listed, was there any particular reason why you started this thread, Sin?
It's a reoccurring theme in life. These little glitches in communication colour everything from staff meetings, to discussions over supper, to online debates...they convince me that our language is not as precise as we believe it to be, and sometimes I just get worn out because successful communication can be hard work.

But then, outside of relationships, there is the kind of misunderstanding that I often have with Alien Born...where I'm not entirely sure we're meaning the same thing with the words we use...so I spend half the time trying to translate things into AB speak, and back to Sinuhue speak...meanwhile forgetting what the original topic was!

My technique unmasked in public. Argh *runs away in shame*

When I glanced at this post, I read "groin licks".

*shudder*

Unlike Groin Kicks, Groin Licks are more fun to receive than to give. :)

But then, outside of relationships, there is the kind of misunderstanding that I often have with Alien Born...where I'm not entirely sure we're meaning the same thing with the words we use...so I spend half the time trying to translate things into AB speak, and back to Sinuhue speak...meanwhile forgetting what the original topic was!

See, I think this is part of the problem. There shouldn't be AB speak and Sinuhue speak. We speak the same language and if people treated posts like they weren't going to expand on them in a minute anyway and simply worked to make them clearly from the outset we wouldn't have such difficulty. I think a lot of us are lazy and we post just enough to reply expecting people to ask questions so we can expand on our points.

You need to ask yourself whether you value me enough to want me to want you to want me to trying to be telling you something.

I asked myself that and am still waiting on a reply.

You know how he is.

It's a reoccurring theme in life. These little glitches in communication colour everything from staff meetings, to discussions over supper, to online debates...they convince me that our language is not as precise as we believe it to be, and sometimes I just get worn out because successful communication can be hard work.Thank goodness. I was thinking it might have been more than just fate conspiring against me ;)

It's a reoccurring theme in life. These little glitches in communication colour everything from staff meetings, to discussions over supper, to online debates...they convince me that our language is not as precise as we believe it to be, and sometimes I just get worn out because successful communication can be hard work.

Our language is intentionally imprecise. We having been working on it for a century. First, we were firing a bunch of workers. Then we were laying them off. Then we were downsizing. As our ability to mass communicate has improved with television, radio, etc., people in charge have had to be more careful about something they say coming back to bite them in the arse. So they mastered double-speak and we started with statements with just a little play in the meaning and ended up with a discussion about what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

"When you asked 'are you having sexual relations with Monica?' I thought you meant right then while you were asking the question. At the moment you asked me about Monica, she was NOT orally pleasuring my penis."

And we don't just allow it happen, we celebrate it by treating such things like it's brilliant politics. Then a few years later people are on an online forum complaining that our language is imprecise.

Last night some non-UK forum users misunderstood the term "moral fibre", believing it to relate to personal morality whereas in fact it is an expression for motivation. :confused:

See, I think this is part of the problem. There shouldn't be AB speak and Sinuhue speak. We speak the same language and if people treated posts like they weren't going to expand on them in a minute anyway and simply worked to make them clearly from the outset we wouldn't have such difficulty. I think a lot of us are lazy and we post just enough to reply expecting people to ask questions so we can expand on our points.
Nonetheless, we can not be expected to read things without any context at all. If I know that a certain poster holds a certain belief, I will read his comments on the subject differently than I will when someone else, who I'm not as familiar with, posts. BUT if my original understanding of the first poster's belief is flawed...the context is flawed. I think this happens to all of us a lot. Assumptions are made about where we stand, and our comments are taken in that particular context. Yet, that is human nature. We need context, even if it's flawed. The trick is figuring out where you went wrong in constructing the context you're working from.

Sounds confusing. Let me break it down with an example:

Someone makes a certain face when they are mad. But you don't happen to notice that they also make that face when they are just thinking about something, so when you see the face, you react to 'mad' and not 'thinking'. You can't figure out why the person is mad, and you start considering all the things that might be the cause (rather than just asking), and perhaps come to the conclusion that you did something to make this person mad. Now you feel that their anger (what you perceive as anger) is unjustified, and you get mad at them for it. Then they clue in that you're upset, but can't figure out why on earth you would be when they were just sitting there thinking...

And we don't just allow it happen, we celebrate it by treating such things like it's brilliant politics. Then a few years later people are on an online forum complaining that our language is imprecise.Hehehehe...too true. My husband says I want to study law so I can learn how to screw other people (SB, don't take that out of context), but really, I just don't want other people to screw me anymore (not true in the context SB is thinking), and in order to prevent this screwing, I have to learn 'the lingo'. But I worry that I'll start thinking like that too, and confusing myself and everyone around me...just when I've made such strides in just asking, "Honey, are you mad?"

Last night some non-UK forum users misunderstood the term "moral fibre", believing it to relate to personal morality whereas in fact it is an expression for motivation. :confused:

I'll admit that I would have misunderstood it had I not applied the context of your other posts.

I'll admit that I would have misunderstood it had I not applied the context of your other posts.
So we have Tactical Grace speak, and Jocabia speak?

My wrestling coach was training in Russia and said "take it easy", as a farewell, to one of his foreign partners. The russian wrestler nearly attacked him basing that "take it easy" was a way to litterally take it. O.o

So we have Tactical Grace speak, and Jocabia speak?

Why not? If we have Sin speak and AB speak we can have {insert poster name/reference} speak as well.

The only exception to this is LG, as I am not sure if that would qualify as speech.

My wrestling coach was training in Russia and said "take it easy", as a farewell, to one of his foreign partners. The russian wrestler nearly attacked him basing that "take it easy" was a way to litterally take it. O.o
Misunderstandings from people who come from different linguistic backgrounds are common...but there are just as common among people who speak the 'same' language. Slang, idioms, even the accepted common usage of words can vary from location to location. As well, certain words encompass a lot...take the word 'culture' for example. I bet we could take a sampling of a hundred English speakers and completely different definitions of that concept. I've gotten into trouble with that word, and I've come to realise it's because I have something in mind, and other people have something different in mind...we try to discuss it, but none of us are talking about the same thing.

Nonetheless, we can not be expected to read things without any context at all. If I know that a certain poster holds a certain belief, I will read his comments on the subject differently than I will when someone else, who I'm not as familiar with, posts. BUT if my original understanding of the first poster's belief is flawed...the context is flawed. I think this happens to all of us a lot. Assumptions are made about where we stand, and our comments are taken in that particular context. Yet, that is human nature. We need context, even if it's flawed. The trick is figuring out where you went wrong in constructing the context you're working from.

Sounds confusing. Let me break it down with an example:

Someone makes a certain face when they are mad. But you don't happen to notice that they also make that face when they are just thinking about something, so when you see the face, you react to 'mad' and not 'thinking'. You can't figure out why the person is mad, and you start considering all the things that might be the cause (rather than just asking), and perhaps come to the conclusion that you did something to make this person mad. Now you feel that their anger (what you perceive as anger) is unjustified, and you get mad at them for it. Then they clue in that you're upset, but can't figure out why on earth you would be when they were just sitting there thinking...

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. I make certain faces when I'm thinking, that have the exact effect you describe. I have a very descriptive face. So much so, that I actually have to concentrate on masking it when I meet people, because when I was younger if I met you and I didn't like your smell or it was overwhelming (I have an acute sense of smell) I would make a face. Unfortunately, I would also make the same face if a particularly smelly car just drove by 30 meters away. It's horrible because it looks like I'm judging people when I'm really just having a natural reaction to an olfactory gland in overdrive.

And I tend to think quickly so I can go through a multitude of faces in a few moments when I meet someone if I don't try to do otherwise. My sister used to walk next to me and just constantly poke and tell me to cut it out. "Eric, quit doing that, it's embarrassing." I think the misunderstandings help me to understand that I do it and I also think that it gives me the opportunity to explain to people.

Imagine my girlfriend comes up and tells me she'd like to go see Cinderella Man. I tell her I'd love to see it, truthfully. Then my brain goes through a series of related thoughts including a thought about a particularly brutal fight from my past. Briefly she sees my muscles tighten and a rather vicious look cross my face. She reads this as I lied and I don't really want to see the movie. In a good relationship, she brings it up. I explain it and, in the future, she recognizes that I do this and looks for more evidence than a fleeting look. In a bad relationship, she simply assumes I don't want to go and sabotages the trip so we don't see a movie we both want to see or we both don't enjoy it.

The point is that in a good relationship of any type, I think this all about how you build that context we're talking about. Am I more likely to misunderstand the first post I read of Sinuhue's than one in this thread? Sure. But as reasonable people, we should take such a thing into account when we meet new posters and when we're dealing with people we've gotten to know well. It's part of being in a good relationship.

My wrestling coach was training in Russia and said "take it easy", as a farewell, to one of his foreign partners. The russian wrestler nearly attacked him basing that "take it easy" was a way to litterally take it. O.o

YAY! :D

So we have Tactical Grace speak, and Jocabia speak?

Well, Tactical Grace was using an expression that tends to mean something different in American than the UK, but that's not the point. We all communicate differently and some phrases have more local meanings than others, but we should all be able to understand eath other without 'translating' by simply looking at the context available to us and asking when this doesn't offer us enough information to understand or to reach an understanding that isn't open to interpretation.

Why not? If we have Sin speak and AB speak we can have {insert poster name/reference} speak as well.

The only exception to this is LG, as I am not sure if that would qualify as speech.

Certainly not just speech. A certain amount of physical interaction would be necessary. :)

we try to discuss it, but none of us are talking about the same thing.

This is because in the end, language is just symbolic. When it symbolizes abstract concepts, we're lucky if we can even fool ourselves into thinking we're talking about the same thing. A symbol can have different meanings, and meaning can be construed any which way you want. Imagine if instead of talking, we communicated with ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. Well, that's basically what we do, only we have a lot more glyphs and it's more abstracted.

Communication is mostly guesswork and assumptions, nodding and smiling.

The only important things are things you can communicate with body language as well as verbology. Like, "I'm hungry," or "Where's the toilet?" or "hey let's fuck."

When shit goes down and technology fails humanity and survival becomes the important thing once again, this will be clear, and all these words and philosophies and nuances will cease to matter.

Imagine my girlfriend comes up and tells me she'd like to go see Cinderella Man. I tell her I'd love to see it, truthfully. Then my brain goes through a series of related thoughts including a thought about a particularly brutal fight from my past. Briefly she sees my muscles tighten and a rather vicious look cross my face. She reads this as I lied and I don't really want to see the movie. In a good relationship, she brings it up. I explain it and, in the future, she recognizes that I do this and looks for more evidence than a fleeting look. In a bad relationship, she simply assumes I don't want to go and sabotages the trip so we don't see a movie we both want to see or we both don't enjoy it. This is exactly what I'm talking about! *sobs* YOU UNDERSTAND!

But yeah...not jumping to conclusions can be a hard habit to break after a lifetime of doing it!

My husband knows I react badly to 'the face', but he can't help it. It's up to me to do a reality check...and it helps that he often lets me know now when he's upset about something.


The point is that in a good relationship of any type, I think this all about how you build that context we're talking about. Am I more likely to misunderstand the first post I read of Sinuhue's than one in this thread? Sure. But as reasonable people, we should take such a thing into account when we meet new posters and when we're dealing with people we've gotten to know well. It's part of being in a good relationship. HALLELUAH, BROTHER!

That happens to me every week. One of my clients is a guy who had a stroke about a year ago now, and it affected his communication. A lot of what he says is basically gibberish, same with writing, and he often misunderstands me when I talk too. My job is to help him learn how to care for his infant daughter properly. It is a hell of a job!

The only important things are things you can communicate with body language as well as verbology. Like, "I'm hungry," or "Where's the toilet?" or "hey let's fuck."

When shit goes down and technology fails humanity and survival becomes the important thing once again, this will be clear, and all these words and philosophies and nuances will cease to matter.So we're going back to gesticulating, grunting, and cave man sex?

So we're going back to gesticulating, grunting, and cave man sex?

The best parts of life. :)

No, I'm not saying we'll revert that far back. Just a change in priorities is all. And a welcome change it will be, too.

This is because in the end, language is just symbolic. When it symbolizes abstract concepts, we're lucky if we can even fool ourselves into thinking we're talking about the same thing. A symbol can have different meanings, and meaning can be construed any which way you want. Imagine if instead of talking, we communicated with ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. Well, that's basically what we do, only we have a lot more glyphs and it's more abstracted.

Communication is mostly guesswork and assumptions, nodding and smiling.

The only important things are things you can communicate with body language as well as verbology. Like, "I'm hungry," or "Where's the toilet?" or "hey let's fuck."

When shit goes down and technology fails humanity and survival becomes the important thing once again, this will be clear, and all these words and philosophies and nuances will cease to matter.

The problem is that we have ways to make the symbols for abstract concepts more precise, but instead we've slowly but steadily been working to make our understanding less precise. Sometimes it's PC. (Little people v. midgets. You can't tell me little people is a more precise term given it can mean other things.) Sometimes it's the legal culpability thing. (Like te meaning of 'is' discussion.) Sometimes it's just that people don't like to be wrong so they try to make things wishy-washy.

The problem is that some of this double-speak is intentionally and obviously deceptive and instead of simply standing up and being outraged by the behavior, we allow it and then the honest folk and those that actually wish for justice are left struggling to find a way to be precise in a world that is constantly molesting the language for the purpose of plausible deniability.

The problem is that we have ways to make the symbols for abstract concepts more precise, but instead we've slowly but steadily been working to make our understanding less precise. Sometimes it's PC. (Little people v. midgets. You can't tell me little people is a more precise term given it can mean other things.) Sometimes it's the legal culpability thing. (Like te meaning of 'is' discussion.) Sometimes it's just that people don't like to be wrong so they try to make things wishy-washy.

The problem is that some of this double-speak is intentionally and obviously deceptive and instead of simply standing up and being outraged by the behavior, we allow it and then the honest folk and those that actually wish for justice are left struggling to find a way to be precise in a world that is constantly molesting the language for the purpose of plausible deniability.

Yes, but see all that would disappear once the great political-correct media-industry engines go the way of the dodo.

A nice catastrophe would do it. I really think it's the only thing that would work - killing off lots of people and drastically changing the world to make it narrower and more focused.

When the whole country is focusing on just what the President means when he talks about "sexual relations" it's a mis-use of our attention. And that's a problem. But it won't go away, it's indemic to our culture. Look at us, having this conversation on this topic. It's mostly useless. Sure, it's mildly interesting, entertaining perhaps. But in the long run it's useless.

Yes, but see all that would disappear once the great political-correct media-industry engines go the way of the dodo.

A nice catastrophe would do it. I really think it's the only thing that would work - killing off lots of people and drastically changing the world to make it narrower and more focused.

When the whole country is focusing on just what the President means when he talks about "sexual relations" it's a mis-use of our attention. And that's a problem. But it won't go away, it's indemic to our culture. Look at us, having this conversation on this topic. It's mostly useless. Sure, it's mildly interesting, entertaining perhaps. But in the long run it's useless.

I don't agree. I think the molestation of our language is an important issue. While, the 'trial' of the President was nonsensical, it highlighted and important issue and shows just how far both sides are willing to go to mislead the American people. The media is part of the problem, but primarily the problem is becoming so rampant because they've highlighted a greater problem. That the majority of politicians and company heads that represent us both politically and professionally will do ANYTHING to deceive us if it furthers their agenda. This goes for the people who took over the politically-correct agenda, this goes for PETA, this goes for many of the active political groups that have eventually become obsessed with their own power and eventually began abusing the ideals they claim to hold. And the end, the people and our language suffer as a result.

I don't agree. I think the molestation of our language is an important issue. While, the 'trial' of the President was nonsensical, it highlighted and important issue and shows just how far both sides are willing to go to mislead the American people. The media is part of the problem, but primarily the problem is becoming so rampant because they've highlighted a greater problem. That the majority of politicians and company heads that represent us both politically and professionally will do ANYTHING to deceive us if it furthers their agenda. This goes for the people who took over the politically-correct agenda, this goes for PETA, this goes for many of the active political groups that have eventually become obsessed with their own power and eventually began abusing the ideals they claim to hold. And the end, the people and our language suffer as a result.

I see it as supply and demand. People WANT bullshit. Sure, the supply side is to blame for the shitfeasts we eat. But we eat it, so we're to blame too. If we really wanted something different, we wouldn't vote in the same bunch of incompetent assholes every election, we wouldn't watch this or that news program or support this or that agenda.

It will never change as long as we are so easily led. And people will always be easily led. The solution is to have a situation where no one is led in the first place, then people must either stop thinking in terms of bullshit, or starve to death!