NationStates Jolt Archive

what is there more of: grains of sand on earth, or stars in the universe.

this has been a great debate amongst my friends and I for years.
i only say stars, the rest side with the evil sand ...

can someone settle this , what are ure thoughts ?/

depends...

do you and your friends believe that the universe is infinite? If so more stars because there is only a finite amount of sand on the earth, while there could be an infinite amount of stars in an infinite universe.

I read a book that said there are more stars in the universe than sand on Earth, I don't remember what book. I'll post the name when I get home.

I read a book that said there are more stars in the universe than sand on Earth, I don't remember what book. I'll post the name when I get home.


ta very muchly ....

depends...

do you and your friends believe that the universe is infinite? If so more stars because there is only a finite amount of sand on the earth, while there could be an infinite amount of stars in an infinite universe.



i use that argument to try and win, yet it still carries on

i use that argument to try and win, yet it still carries on
rofl, do they believe that it's infinite or not? apparently not if they think there is more sand.

that's interesting... what would it be like to see the end of the universe if it was finite.

I didn't understand the poll. I thought you were asking whether I would rather have more sand or more stars; I clicked sand. Had I understood, I would have clicked stars.

I didn't understand the poll. I thought you were asking whether I would rather have more sand or more stars; I clicked sand. Had I understood, I would have clicked stars.


why would u want to have more sand, though it is a fun item. beaches, glass, sand paper, use in building products, soaking up stuff ....

stars just burn, ure right sand is better

stars are better :P we wouldn't have life w/o one.

rofl, do they believe that it's infinite or not? apparently not if they think there is more sand.

that's interesting... what would it be like to see the end of the universe if it was finite.
There is no end or edge. The universe might be spherical, so that if you travel far enough in any direction you get back to the starting point. Also, the radius of the universe is so great and expanding so fast that even travelling at the speed of light man could never ever circumnavigate the universe.

To be honest, an infinite universe does not equate to an infinite amount of stars. If, for an example, Big Bang created a finite amount of mass (which all descriptions I've seen postulate) the current universe will be populated by stars with a collective mass still pretty much equating to that originally created mass. Some will be lost to other forms of energy such as light and heat of course. Black holes will have increased their mass but not "displaced" it so that's still around. The size of the universe may still be infinite of course, or rather infinitely expanding with mass origininating from Big Bang.

Now how many stars are there? I remember seeing estimates of number of galaxies and approximate number of stars per galaxy and they are both (interestingly enough) 10-100 billions, indicating 100-10.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 stars. Add a few lonely ones just to be exact. ;) Grains of sand estimates someone?

Now how many stars are there? I remember seeing estimates of number of galaxies and approximate number of stars per galaxy and they are both (interestingly enough) 100 million, indicating 10.000.000.000.000.000 stars. Add a few lonely ones just to be exact. ;) Grains of sand estimates someone?
You're off by a few orders of magnitude ;)
Anyway. The answer here: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/07/22/stars.survey/

To be honest, an infinite universe does not equate to an infinite amount of stars. If, for an example, Big Bang created a finite amount of mass (which all descriptions I've seen postulate) the current universe will be populated by stars with a collective mass still pretty much equating to that originally created mass. Some will be lost to other forms of energy such as light and heat of course. Black holes will have increased their mass but not "displaced" it so that's still around. The size of the universe may still be infinite of course, or rather infinitely expanding with mass origininating from Big Bang.

Now how many stars are there? I remember seeing estimates of number of galaxies and approximate number of stars per galaxy and they are both (interestingly enough) 100 million, indicating 10.000.000.000.000.000 stars. Add a few lonely ones just to be exact. ;) Grains of sand estimates someone?
The unvierse is homogenous, which among other things mean that the distribution of stars is about the same everywhere. Which means that if the universe is infinite there is an infinite volume multiplied by a positive mean density of stars, ie an infinite number of stars.

Grains of sand estimates someone?

7,500,000,000,000,000,000

According to these bods, anyhow:

http://www.miamisci.org/tripod/whysand.html

stars are better :P we wouldn't have life w/o one.
But, in the absence of sand, would life be a profitable venture?

You're off by a few orders of magnitude ;)
Anyway. The answer here: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/07/22/stars.survey/


thanks, that website is know being forwarded to the doubters...

gee nationstates is a mighty useful thing

You're off by a few orders of magnitude ;)
Anyway. The answer here: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/07/22/stars.survey/

Corrected now, it should have been Billions, not Millions! But after that correction, it's pretty correct! ;)

I just wrote a long proof explaining how if there are 10 sextillion grains of sand on the earth (which is an extremely conservative estimate as to the number of stars in the universe), we'd be buried in sand up to a depth of about 7 metres.

Then I accidentally closed the window. Fuck.

I think its obvious that there are more stars, however, the sands numbers are growing both in size and force, we need to force that to stop unless we want the universe filled with sand. I propose economic sanctions first of all, then if they dont stop, we'll need to send in air strikes and possibly an invasion of ground troops. If we don't do something about it now, future generations of newly born stars will have to pay the price! :fluffle:

I think its obvious that there are more stars, however, the sands numbers are growing both in size and force, we need to force that to stop unless we want the universe filled with sand. I propose economic sanctions first of all, then if they dont stop, we'll need to send in air strikes and possibly an invasion of ground troops. If we don't do something about it now, future generations of newly born stars will have to pay the price! :fluffle:


this seems to be a witty take on stars v sand. in reality the analogy might be quite apt sand = middle east (there is a lot there) with deserification rapidly occuring deserts are spreading rapidly as is middle east agression and the stars would be america (where stars are celebrities) mmmm an intresting analogy.

depends...

do you and your friends believe that the universe is infinite? If so more stars because there is only a finite amount of sand on the earth, while there could be an infinite amount of stars in an infinite universe.

But, if there are infinite stars in the universe, then there are infinite planets circling stars in the universe. Each of these infinite planets has grains of sand. So infinite stars and infinite planets means infinite sand.

depends...

do you and your friends believe that the universe is infinite? If so more stars because there is only a finite amount of sand on the earth, while there could be an infinite amount of stars in an infinite universe.
What?

No theory I have ever heard of says there is infinate MATTER (note stars are made of matter)

Just theoredical infininate expansion room

I think you are confused

The unvierse is homogenous, which among other things mean that the distribution of stars is about the same everywhere. Which means that if the universe is infinite there is an infinite volume multiplied by a positive mean density of stars, ie an infinite number of stars.
No there is a roughly equal average density which ratio is being decreased as the volume increases

You just making stuff up?

You just making stuff up?
Made up stuff is the lifeblood of any successful forum.

ahah! but if the universe keeps expanding one day everything will be too far spread out for stars to ignite leaving the remaining stars to die then if there is any Earth sand left your friends will laugh last! (before life and anything interesting becomes permanently extinct fair trade I guess)

also what if the whole inner planet below what we have reached is made of sand that would even the numbers up a bit

ahah! but if the universe keeps expanding one day everything will be too far spread out for stars to ignite leaving the remaining stars to die then if there is any Earth sand left your friends will laugh last! (before life and anything interesting becomes permanently extinct fair trade I guess)

also what if the whole inner planet below what we have reached is made of sand that would even the numbers up a bit
You are describing heat death

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_Death

Basicaly the universe expands to the point that atoms themselfs break down due to entropy and the distrobution of energy throughout the ever increasing size of the universe

i say sand...

Hah, I love the person who put equal.

"Astrologist: There are exactly 999,999,999,999,999,999 stars.
Geologist: Why, there are exactly 999,999,999,999,999,999 grains of sand as well!"
Together: EUREKA !!!!"

I think there are more stars. As of right now, the universe is infinite and there is definently a set number of grains of sand.

Hah, I love the person who put equal.

"Astrologist: There are exactly 999,999,999,999,999,999 stars.
Geologist: Why, there are exactly 999,999,999,999,999,999 grains of sand as well!"
Together: EUREKA !!!!"

I think there are more stars. As of right now, the universe is infinite and there is definently a set number of grains of sand.
Grrr infinite SPACE (for expansion) not infinite MATTER, this is not complicated.

Ya got the right answer for the wrong reasons

depends...

do you and your friends believe that the universe is infinite? If so more stars because there is only a finite amount of sand on the earth, while there could be an infinite amount of stars in an infinite universe.
There is no question. The universe most certainly is infinite.

stars are better :P we wouldn't have life w/o one.
You moron! You just made a case for sand!:p

To be honest, an infinite universe does not equate to an infinite amount of stars. If, for an example, Big Bang created a finite amount of mass (which all descriptions I've seen postulate) the current universe will be populated by stars with a collective mass still pretty much equating to that originally created mass. Some will be lost to other forms of energy such as light and heat of course. Black holes will have increased their mass but not "displaced" it so that's still around. The size of the universe may still be infinite of course, or rather infinitely expanding with mass origininating from Big Bang.

Now how many stars are there? I remember seeing estimates of number of galaxies and approximate number of stars per galaxy and they are both (interestingly enough) 10-100 billions, indicating 100-10.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 stars. Add a few lonely ones just to be exact. ;) Grains of sand estimates someone?
23-ish

But, in the absence of sand, would life be a profitable venture?
Heresy!

Sand obviously.

7,500,000,000,000,000,000

According to these bods, anyhow:

http://www.miamisci.org/tripod/whysand.html
So sand beats the visible number of stars.... *shrugs off the moot point*

I think its obvious that there are more stars, however, the sands numbers are growing both in size and force, we need to force that to stop unless we want the universe filled with sand. I propose economic sanctions first of all, then if they dont stop, we'll need to send in air strikes and possibly an invasion of ground troops. If we don't do something about it now, future generations of newly born stars will have to pay the price! :fluffle:
Or we could just make more glass. Even for really stupid things, like a huge cube of glass carved and painted to look like a Borg cube or something.

But, if there are infinite stars in the universe, then there are infinite planets circling stars in the universe. Each of these infinite planets has grains of sand. So infinite stars and infinite planets means infinite sand.
I think it's an unwarranted assumption to think all planets have sand. Most, in fact are probably gas giants. Furthermore, the sand of other planets is probably fastly different from our sand, thereby making other sands substances we would not identify as normal sands, but some other industrially useful substance.

ahah! but if the universe keeps expanding one day everything will be too far spread out for stars to ignite leaving the remaining stars to die then if there is any Earth sand left your friends will laugh last! (before life and anything interesting becomes permanently extinct fair trade I guess)

also what if the whole inner planet below what we have reached is made of sand that would even the numbers up a bit
I just qualified that the only sand relevant is Earth-sand, and well before the universe dies because of entropy, etc., our sun will expand to include everything up to and beyond Earth's orbit, thereby assimilating your sand.

Grrr infinite SPACE (for expansion) not infinite MATTER, this is not complicated.

Ya got the right answer for the wrong reasons
You don't know that there cannot be infinite matter. Frankly, you aren't that familiar with the workings of a universe composed of layers of instantaneously intersecting three-dimensional planes, which compose an infinite series of instantaneously intersecting four-dimensional planes, etc.

You don't know that there cannot be infinite matter. Frankly, you aren't that familiar with the workings of a universe composed of layers of instantaneously intersecting three-dimensional planes, which compose an infinite series of instantaneously intersecting four-dimensional planes, etc.
Sorry I failed to state in observable reality

Multy dimensional theory is not particularly observable, and often are considered separate universes rather then part of this one

If the Universe is infinite, there are probably more stars. But there's a margin of possibility that I'm wrong, so don't quote me on that.

Sorry I failed to state in observable reality

Multy dimensional theory is not particularly observable, and often are considered separate universes rather then part of this one
I forgive you, my son (ironic that you're prolly older than I:rolleyes: ). I consider it one universe of which we have such a small perspective.

I forgive you, my son (ironic that you're prolly older than I:rolleyes: ). I consider it one universe of which we have such a small perspective.
But they were restircting us to this universe :) Other plains of existance will come into play some other time :)

But they were restircting us to this universe :) Other plains of existance will come into play some other time :)
"Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?"
Of course they restricted us to this universe, this single, infinite universe.:p

"Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?"
Of course they restricted us to this universe, this single, infinite universe.:p
But as stated mass in THIS universe (not the multiverse) is finite hence stars are as well

If you are taking a multiverse view then yes theoredicaly there could be infinite universes each with matter (therefore infinite matter) but there is no real reason that we should consider them in this with the way the OP phrazed things

I am a noob at this stuff, but I have bean told that space is always growing. How? I don’t know, since space is nothing, what’s is past space? I am still a noob at this so do not get upset at what I type (and don’t insult me, or ill have to nuke your @$$).

my signature\|/
As I raise my weapon of choice a voice calls out, faint at first but then notice able. Will-"is the giant snake flat footed?". every one plus DM-"Yes Will its flat footed."

[*}^{*] Lord Zoom

But as stated mass in THIS universe (not the multiverse) is finite hence stars are as well

If you are taking a multiverse view then yes theoredicaly there could be infinite universes each with matter (therefore infinite matter) but there is no real reason that we should consider them in this with the way the OP phrazed things
Why not?
*goes to check OP*
I think you are fooling yourself about the multiverse. It really is just one big universe, which I take to be his meaning. After all, they are very closely interrelated. In fact, I think we should let him settle this if he's still around.

Why not?
*goes to check OP*
Singular universe stated

Singular universe stated
^
^
See edited post above.