NationStates Jolt Archive

http://theage.com.au/text/articles/2006/04/12/1144521396957.html

Whadda you think?

Well of course they should bloody well march together. A lot of them damn well died together, didn't they? If you can't be friends with your old enemies who can you be friends with?

Personally, I think they should, but it's really up to the RSL to decide. I definitely agree that they shouldn't pick & choose. They should either let all former foes march, or none.

Well, if the kids and grandkids of vets get to march...does that mean that I'll get to then? :D

Well, if the kids and grandkids of vets get to march...does that mean that I'll get to then? :D

Yeah, why not. They're a pretty easy going mob up in Qld.

What happens, though, if tomorrow, a war starts and Germany, Japan and Australia end up the best of allies? Would they weigh that up?

"On one hand, they were Nazis, but on the other, they really helped us out back there..."

Well, if the kids and grandkids of vets get to march...does that mean that I'll get to then? :D

Theoretically, I'd be able to march as Australian and German (father in 'Nam, grandfather and great-grandfather in WWII).

>_>

http://theage.com.au/text/articles/2006/04/12/1144521396957.html

Whadda you think?
Your title is wrong. The article talks about not including the axis countries in the parade.

Your title is wrong. The article talks about not including the axis countries in the parade.

It's a general statement. It's meant to be read like "What do you think about Axis troops marching with ANZACs in the parade?"

It's a general statement. It's meant to be read like "What do you think about Axis troops marching with ANZACs in the parade?"

I think the title is misleading. Very few persons relate Axis to anything but the bad guys of WWII.
WWI was a lot more morally ambivalent.

Obviously, Wilhelminian Germany doesn't have the same moral stature as France or the British Commonwealth, but surely, the 2nd Empire was more respectable than Czarist Russia.

I think the title is misleading.

Fine.

Very few persons relate Axis to anything but the bad guys of WWII.

And that's what we're trying to change. I can't speak for the Japanese, or the Axis allies, but I'm pretty sure the German and Italian soldiers were just doing their duty. They weren't even involved in the exterminations and such. Most probably didn't want to be there.

Of course, we all know the popular image of the German soldier; "Come, Gunter, let's kill the inferiors! Then, we can go and eat babies!"

I think the title is misleading. Very few persons relate Axis to anything but the bad guys of WWII.
And if you read the article, it's those "bad guys" who are the issue. Turks are not a problem, the Aussies and the Turks are the best of friends.

Obviously, Wilhelminian Germany doesn't have the same moral stature as France or the British Commonwealth...
Explain.

And if you read the article, it's those "bad guys" who are the issue. Turks are not a problem, the Aussies and the Turks are the best of friends.


Explain.

That's where the issue is... misleading. This march is about WWI. Axis generally is associated with WWII.

Kievan's edited post ( I was too hasty in dismissing it, perhaps ) pretty much makes the point I'd like to have made. I feel no more animosity towards the Prussian Army of WWI than I would feel towards the Prussian army of the Napoleonic wars.

To adress the final concern of Neo Leonstein: it was Imperial Germany that forced war upon France and the UK, and not the other way around.
( I recommend a reading of Dreadnought by Massey ).
Having said that, the moral stature of Imperial Germany ( a nation moving away from medieval customs towards modernity ) is better than that of Imperial Russia - a Nation dedicated to a revival of customs best left in the Dark Age.

To adress the final concern of Neo Leonstein: it was Imperial Germany that forced war upon France and the UK, and not the other way around.

Not really, when you think about it; it can either be Austria's fault, for going too far with Serbia, or Russia's fault, for not standing down. It really was an idiotic move on the part of Russia: bringing all of Europe into total war to protect... Serbia? I wouldn't.

I don't think it's was Germany's fault any more than it was France's or Britain's; they were merely allies brought into the war by obligation: Austria and Russia were the instigators. I've wondered what it would be like if Germany had decided not to aid Austria: would it end up as a lesser "Austro-Russian War," or what?

To adress the final concern of Neo Leonstein: it was Imperial Germany that forced war upon France and the UK, and not the other way around.
Nothing like sticking to 90 year old fantasies of misplaced guilt, hey?

Britain didn't have to attempt to preserve a position of strength at any cost. For animosity to begin, there always have to be two parties.

France certainly wasn't forced into anything. They were quite happy to go to war.

And Germany was dragged along by the Austrians, and the Russian insistence on mediterranean ports.

And that's what we're trying to change. I can't speak for the Japanese, or the Axis allies, but I'm pretty sure the German and Italian soldiers were just doing their duty. They weren't even involved in the exterminations and such. Most probably didn't want to be there.The Italians perhaps not, but you've been reading too many revisionist sources if you truly believe the "just following orders" argument for the Germans.

Not really, when you think about it; it can either be Austria's fault, for going too far with Serbia, or Russia's fault, for not standing down. It really was an idiotic move on the part of Russia: bringing all of Europe into total war to protect... Serbia? I wouldn't.Back then, there was a panslavic movement; the ideal that all slavic nations and peoples should stick together.

I don't think it's was Germany's fault any more than it was France's or Britain's; they were merely allies brought into the war by obligation: Austria and Russia were the instigators. I've wondered what it would be like if Germany had decided not to aid Austria: would it end up as a lesser "Austro-Russian War," or what?Well, considering that the Kaiser issued the blank-cheque to Austria and didn't think they might actually make use of it doesn't mean he isn't responsible for his insane act of negligence.

Nothing like sticking to 90 year old fantasies of misplaced guilt, hey?

Britain didn't have to attempt to preserve a position of strength at any cost. For animosity to begin, there always have to be two parties.

France certainly wasn't forced into anything. They were quite happy to go to war.

And Germany was dragged along by the Austrians, and the Russian insistence on mediterranean ports.

In other words... the rape of the neutrality of Belgium never happened?

The Italians perhaps not, but you've been reading too many revisionist sources if you truly believe the "just following orders" argument for the Germans.

I don't think that the ordinary Wehrmacht man was anything more than a conscript sent to fight.

In other words... the rape of the neutrality of Belgium never happened?

There's no such thing as neutrality; just varying degrees of alliance.

There's no such thing as neutrality; just varying degrees of alliance.

I think that the ability of France and the British Commonwealth to refrain from making such sophistries constitutes the moral escarpment between them and the Central Powers...

I think that the ability of France and the British Commonwealth to refrain from making such sophistries constitutes the moral escarpment between them and the Central Powers...

Any keen Allied strategist would agree with me. Every country that was official neutral was, in reality, on one side or the other.

In other words... the rape of the neutrality of Belgium never happened?
"Rape" is an interesting choice of words.

Anyways, the Belgian government was asked to let the German army pass through. It declined, for no other reason than the King fearing for his standing among the European royalty (that is assuming that the Belgian government was indeed neutral - if it wasn't it could have had other reasons).

Germany had this one shot at winning the war. Neither France nor Britain were in such a position, but it is pretty unlikely that either would have refrained from such an action if they had been.

And surely you don't want me to start listing all the things France and Britain did that were of questionable moral value during their empire-building.

Im kinda torn on the issue

I think that the ability of France and the British Commonwealth to refrain from making such sophistries constitutes the moral escarpment between them and the Central Powers...
No, it was the ability of France and Britain to have the resources for a long, drawn-out conflict that they would only have to wage on one side (as opposed to the Germans being sandwiched between two hyper-militarialistic powers).
The Germans either had to attach Belgium, or simply lie there and get raped, and since the Kaiser owed more loyalty to his subjects than to the people of Belgium, the choice was fairly obvious.

The Axis didn't exist in WW1, the 'other side' were termed the Central Powers.

Britain didn't have to attempt to preserve a position of strength at any cost. For animosity to begin, there always have to be two parties.


Feh! Britian wasn't trying to maintian a position of strength on the continent at any cost. In fact, prior to the 1898 naval build up by the cabbages, it's policy was one of non-involvment. Learn some history. Not propaganda. (In fact the UK never claimed to be a super-power, or in fact the number one power on the continent, this is all some sad fantasy you have created to justify the warmongering behaviour of "poor little germany").

It was only germany's openly hostile naval program that ultimately forced it into the entenente. And don't blither on about germany having the right to have a navy either. The navy the cabbages constucted wasn't even ocean going. Nor did they need it to defend germany's food supply. It existed for one purpose only; to destroy/weaken the royal navy and attack the UK through its dependence of foreign shipping.

Germany was openly beligerent and hostile, and forced the UK into war. (In fact france to, with the blank cheque that was sent to Austria. Despite later day protestations by german apologists).

And can the shit about belgium too. They had every right to refuse letting the Kaisers army through. They weren't an ally. And it was about a damn sight more than preserving "standing" among royal families.

I often find it amusing that you can find clear agression from any nation, except germany. I suppose things are only shades of grey when "germany"
starts wars.

And as for france's and the UK's empire building, yes, it was often despicable, but it is also irrelevent to your point, as it did not start or justiry WWI. (Unless you have a head stuffed with propaganda).

Feh!

-snip-

(Unless you have a head stuffed with propaganda).


Cabbages?

I can just imagine you frothing at the mouth like a red-faced imbecile as you typed that rant.

Cabbages?

I can just imagine you frothing at the mouth like a red-faced imbecile as you typed that rant.
I thought it was krauts, anyway, "cabbages" actually confused me. I thought he was refering to the vegetable or a branch of the British Royal Family at first.

I can just imagine you frothing at the mouth like a red-faced imbecile as you typed that rant.

I would have said boche, but I was worried that history buffs such as yourself would get confused with the appliance manufacturer.

I would have said boche, but I was worried that history buffs such as yourself would get confused with the appliance manufacturer.



I doubt it, seeing as though you haven't spelt it correctly.


If you want to use racial slurs just go ahead, I won't think any less of you.

IF Red Army veterans that raped and killed people can march, why can't Wermacht and Schutz Staffel veterans march?

I don't think that the ordinary Wehrmacht man was anything more than a conscript sent to fight.That's because it doesn't fit into your worldview ;)
There's no such thing as neutrality; just varying degrees of alliance.
No, it was the ability of France and Britain to have the resources for a long, drawn-out conflict that they would only have to wage on one side (as opposed to the Germans being sandwiched between two hyper-militarialistic powers).
The Germans either had to attach Belgium, or simply lie there and get raped, and since the Kaiser owed more loyalty to his subjects than to the people of Belgium, the choice was fairly obvious.
There's only one problem with that. There were at least three countries that took on the role of guaranteeing it's neutrality: Great Britain, France, and... Germany. The Kaiser owed it to Belgium to guarantee its neutrality due to prior agreements.

IF Red Army veterans that raped and killed people can march, why can't Wermacht and Schutz Staffel veterans march?Because Wehrmacht and SS raped and killed more people ;)

Because Wehrmacht and SS raped and killed more people ;)

That makes it so much better.

And I don't think the Wehrmacht raped as many women as the Red Army.

I'm just going to say one thing.

Generalizations are dangerous.

Well, if the kids and grandkids of vets get to march...does that mean that I'll get to then? :D
I 'marched' today.


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The Turks have welcomed us to Gallipoli and yet it appears some would say they can't march with 'us'?

Let them March, the war/s is/are over and they all share one bond that they served and had friends/family/loved ones die.

20 years ago the kids of vets weren't allowed to march but with fewer numbers of WWII vets able to march they are a dieing generation, the newer generation is reviving it but to exclude them is to denigh what the ANZAC commemorations at Gallipoli have preached recently.

That makes it so much better.

And I don't think the Wehrmacht raped as many women as the Red Army.Perhaps not, but then again I'm not going to judge whether getting raped or getting killed is worse, so if you count both together, the Wehrmacht still has the Red Army licked, especially when it comes to civilians.

In other words... the rape of the neutrality of Belgium never happened?
The Allies raped the neutrality of Greece few years after that, and it wasnt the slightest bit more "morally justified".

I don't think that the ordinary Wehrmacht man was anything more than a conscript sent to fight.

And what do you think the Japanese were then? Yellow Beasts?

It was only germany's openly hostile naval program that ultimately forced it into the entenente. And don't blither on about germany having the right to have a navy either. The navy the cabbages constucted wasn't even ocean going. Nor did they need it to defend germany's food supply. It existed for one purpose only; to destroy/weaken the royal navy and attack the UK through its dependence of foreign shipping.

Germany was openly beligerent and hostile, and forced the UK into war. (In fact france to, with the blank cheque that was sent to Austria. Despite later day protestations by german apologists).
So when Brits create a massive, huge, tremendous navy and try to keep ahead of everyone else, it's ok since they have an empire. And when someone else tries that, it's a violation of the basic right of the UK to be stronger than anyone else, and as such a hostile act?

Very good, that's what real politics were back then (and pretty much are today as well)... but please stop making yourself look ridiculous by trying to speek about "justification" and moral rights for countries to do things. Looking back at the history, the Brits were just as bad, if not actually worse, than the Germany before the rise of National Socialism.

Equally greedy, power-hungered, agressive and militant.

Madnestan, I never said that.

Madnestan, I never said that.

That's right, it was Lacadaemon.

I 'marched' today.


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The Turks have welcomed us to Gallipoli and yet it appears some would say they can't march with 'us'?

Let them March, the war/s is/are over and they all share one bond that they served and had friends/family/loved ones die.

20 years ago the kids of vets weren't allowed to march but with fewer numbers of WWII vets able to march they are a dieing generation, the newer generation is reviving it but to exclude them is to denigh what the ANZAC commemorations at Gallipoli have preached recently.
good work, keep the spirit alive

And what do you think the Japanese were then? Yellow Beasts?

From what I've heard and read, the Japanese and the Axis allies were pretty vicious; not just ordinary fighters. I read once the Ustashe did stuff that made the Germans sick.

The Allies raped the neutrality of Greece few years after that, and it wasnt the slightest bit more "morally justified".


Ah - the 'but the other feller' argument. I've heard that kind of reasoning before - by those who seek to justify Al Qaeda. Oh, and by my kids, when they were little.

In other words... the rape of the neutrality of Belgium never happened?

And the UK and France didn't rape all of Africa, The Middle East, India, Indochina, and America?

Ah - the 'but the other feller' argument. I've heard that kind of reasoning before - by those who seek to justify Al Qaeda. Oh, and by my kids, when they were little.
You got me wrong. I don't mean that the German invasion of Belgium was justified, all I'm saying is that the Brits and the French were just as bad.
In the same way I don't think Saddam's torture of his political prisoners was right only because of what Americans are doing in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. One crime doesn't make another any better. It just takes the right of speaking about who's "good" and "evil".

You got me wrong. I don't mean that the German invasion of Belgium was justified, all I'm saying is that the Brits and the French were just as bad.
In the same way I don't think Saddam's torture of his political prisoners was right only because of what Americans are doing in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. One crime doesn't make another any better. It just takes the right of speaking about who's "good" and "evil".

Perhaps you should let the Belgians speak about it.
Or the Luxembourgers.

From what I've heard and read, the Japanese and the Axis allies were pretty vicious; not just ordinary fighters. I read once the Ustashe did stuff that made the Germans sick.
Ustasha was a political, armed force made of ultra-nationalist fanatics. Compare it to SS if you want to see an equal organisation. Kroatian Army wasn't any worse than the Wehrmacht was.
Likewise, the average Japanese conscript wasn't more likely to commit war crimes than his German counterpart.
I'd suggest you get the facts right before making any accusations...

Perhaps you should let the Belgians speak about it.
Or the Luxembourgers.
You think they'd say that it was OK to occupy Greece?

The UK and France can hardly be called morally superior than Germany. The UK tried to basically ass-rape all of Africa, the Middle East, and India. More people died in India under British rule than people died in Germany under Hitler's rule, and Hitler was a plum loco and genocidal psychopath. At least the Americans fought the redcoats off.

You think they'd say that it was OK to occupy Greece?

I'd say that anyone who introduces an if or but rates as a reprehensible person - or a kid.

Ustasha was a political, armed force made of ultra-nationalist fanatics. Compare it to SS if you want to see an equal organisation. Kroatian Army wasn't any worse than the Wehrmacht was.
Likewise, the average Japanese conscript wasn't more likely to commit war crimes than his German counterpart.
I'd suggest you get the facts right before making any accusations...

Well, we can't make generalizations. Though lots of JApanese soldiers commited atrocities, and lots of SS soldiers made atrocities, we can't say that they ALL made atrocities.

I'd say that anyone who introduces an if or but rates as a reprehensible person - or a kid.
What if you just read what I say? And really do your best to get the point of it?
Since you seem to be unable to do that, let me help you with this simplification;

Germany did wrong when it invaded Belgium in 1914, no question about it. I never said anything else.

UK and France did wrong when they built their empires, and when they invaded Greece in 1916.

This means that the UK and France have morally no higher grounds in comparison to the Germany.

Is there something you disagree with?

Because Wehrmacht and SS raped and killed more people ;)

Is that so...?

Well, we can't make generalizations. Though lots of JApanese soldiers commited atrocities, and lots of SS soldiers made atrocities, we can't say that they ALL made atrocities.
Gosh... don't you people really read what I write? I said; Ustasha and SS are comparable organizations. They were made of fanatical volunteers, and used in commiting atrocities.

Kroatian and German Armies were made of conscripts, and rarely committed atrocities since that wasn't what they were used for.

Can you please tell me where exactly did I say that ALL members of any group or army committed human rights violations or war crimes?

I just wanted to say thank you.

This thread has really made me want to learn more about WWI. I feel fairly well versed in WWII but am embarassed to say there is a huge margin. I consider myself a history buff and have taught my kids to be, but as much as I THOUGHT I knew about WWI, you guys have me beat by a mile.

I'm gonna go do some research now. Happy posting!:)

New Bretonnia, just one piece of advice - prefer books over the internet as much as possible, when choosing your source of information. As you propably know just as well as I do, I still want to warn about the utter bullshit that many reliable-looking net pages offer to the surfer as "facts".

Other than that, have fun reading! :)

The Italians perhaps not, but you've been reading too many revisionist sources if you truly believe the "just following orders" argument for the Germans.

Hmm, isn't that a typical attitude in Germany nowadays? "We're all evil Nazis, we deserve to be treated like crap, don't say or do anything to offend anybody even in they're clearly in the wrong... why doesn't anybody like me?"

It's like a whole country of emos...

Is that so...?Prove me wrong without using biased sources then.

Kroatian and German Armies were made of conscripts, and rarely committed atrocities since that wasn't what they were used for.I don't know about the Croats, but you're incorrect about the Germans. The Wehrmacht was used for exactly that purpose on the Eastern Front.

Hmm, isn't that a typical attitude in Germany nowadays? "We're all evil Nazis, we deserve to be treated like crap, don't say or do anything to offend anybody even in they're clearly in the wrong... why doesn't anybody like me?"

It's like a whole country of emos...
Go ahead and mock a sense of responsibility by calling it emo. ;)

Go ahead and mock a sense of responsibility by calling it emo. ;)

Yeah. It's not emo. It's called being wussies.

Yeah, some people in Germany did some bad stuff. So why is it everyone in Germany's fault?

Does America act like that just because of what it did to the Indians? Hell no. It tried to make amends to the Indians later in history (in modern times), and than tried to move on.

Germany just needs to move the **** on. The past is the past.

Yeah, some people in Germany did some bad stuff. So why is it everyone in Germany's fault?
Well, the problem was that the things that happened in the Holocaust started a lot earlier than 1933.

A second issue was the fact that this happened in Germany, of all places. The Germans were very sure that their nation was the epiphany of the West, its last and greatest creation. The most cultured, the most intelligent, the most powerful - the ultimate. That this belief ended this way was a real shock to many Germans, I think.

A third issue was that Germans, despite Denazification (another thing that didn't happen anywhere else - the citizens being directly confronted with the ugly reality) tried to ignore it all away. I still have my dad's high school books, in which there is a twelve-year gap in history. Seriously.

It's like Chapter 6 "Weimar Republic". Chapter 7 "Potsdam Conference and Allied Occupation".

It was mainly due to the rebellion of the younger generation against their parents and their values in '69 that the whole thing was dragged back out again.

Well, the problem was that the things that happened in the Holocaust started a lot earlier than 1933.

A second issue was the fact that this happened in Germany, of all places. The Germans were very sure that their nation was the epiphany of the West, its last and greatest creation. The most cultured, the most intelligent, the most powerful - the ultimate. That this belief ended this way was a real shock to many Germans, I think.

A third issue was that Germans, despite Denazification (another thing that didn't happen anywhere else - the citizens being directly confronted with the ugly reality) tried to ignore it all away. I still have my dad's high school books, in which there is a twelve-year gap in history. Seriously.

It's like Chapter 6 "Weimar Republic". Chapter 7 "Potsdam Conference and Allied Occupation".

It was mainly due to the rebellion of the younger generation against their parents and their values in '69 that the whole thing was dragged back out again.

Well grow up and get over it. You know you guys don't even have any military parades or anything (well duh, of course you would)? It's like a big "Fuck you" to every German who's ever fought for their country. If Bismarck lived to see this, he'd wish he's just stopped after the Second War of Schleswig.

You know you guys don't even have any military parades or anything (well duh, of course you would)?
That's not true! They just have to be protected from the population. :p

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1772659,00.html

That's not true! They just have to be protected from the population. :p

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1772659,00.html

That's what happens when a loser attitude is drilled into your heads.

I think Germany is just obsessed with it's history of Naziism. We don't see Japan acting like this. We don't see Britain acting like this. The problem is denazification worked TOO well. It turned Germany rather...wussy-like...

That's what happens when a loser attitude is drilled into your heads.
Well, I'm not sure whether anyone ever lost more spectacularly.

We don't see Japan acting like this.
Which some don't see as healthy.

The problem is denazification worked TOO well. It turned Germany rather...wussy-like...
As I said before. Denazification just resulted in everyone repressing the period in their memories. It was the debate after 1969 that shaped the discourse as it is today.

Plus, what exactly is "wussy-like" about acknowledging the past? It requires a lot more effort and strength than to ignore it. And besides, the German army is deployed in many places around the world.

Plus, what exactly is "wussy-like" about acknowledging the past? It requires a lot more effort and strength than to ignore it. And besides, the German army is deployed in many places around the world.

I think it's not healthy to obsess over a part of history and than hate yourself for something that happened 60 years ago.

I think it's not healthy to obsess over a part of history and than hate yourself for something that happened 60 years ago.
Well, those most obsessing are usually the non-Germans, to be fair. For your average German citizen, the Holocaust doesn't play a big part in their life. But neither does senseless patriotism.

Plus, what exactly is "wussy-like" about acknowledging the past? It requires a lot more effort and strength than to ignore it. And besides, the German army is deployed in many places around the world.

You're not acknowledging it, you're forever making amends for it.

The German "Army?" You call it that? For a nation that used to be the most powerful in Europe, it's pretty embarrassing that you can now probably be defeated by Poland.

Well, those most obsessing are usually the non-Germans, to be fair. For your average German citizen, the Holocaust doesn't play a big part in their life. But neither does senseless patriotism.

Senseless patriotism? If it wasn't for soccer, Germany might as well not have a flag, that's how ashamed people are of being German.

The German "Army?" You call it that? For a nation that used to be the most powerful in Europe, it's pretty embarrassing that you can now probably be defeated by Poland.
It's 250,000 men, more than 2000 tanks, plus reserves. Before the collapse of the USSR, it was half a million.

It's plenty enough.

(and just for factuality...the Polish Army only has 140,000 regular troops, plus reserves. And much of their equipment is not fully up to scratch)

Senseless patriotism? If it wasn't for soccer, Germany might as well not have a flag, that's how ashamed people are of being German.
And if this was the case (and I believe that if you asked the Germans, they'd disagree with you), then why would that be a problem? It doesn't manifest itself in any way as far as politics or culture are concerned.

I say let them march. There is honor I think in making peace with ones enemy after such a long time. I have seen American and Japanese old men shaking hands at the Arizona memorial in Pearl harbor. I think it is good for one to lay to rest hatred. If one doesn't it will eat at you into there is nothing left.

It's 250,000 men, more than 2000 tanks, plus reserves. Before the collapse of the USSR, it was half a million.

It's plenty enough.

(and just for factuality...the Polish Army only has 140,000 regular troops, plus reserves. And much of their equipment is not fully up to scratch)

Yeah, but you know what the Poles have? Pride. Something the Germans haven't had for a LONG time.

Yeah, but you know what the Poles have? Pride. Something the Germans haven't had for a LONG time.
What does pride do? Germany has done quite well without it, and Poland's been relatively less successful with it.

What does pride do? Germany has done quite well without it, and Poland's been relatively less successful with it.

And America's been beating the living shit out of everybody with it.

And America's been beating the living shit out of everybody with it.
That and not getting beaten in wars and enjoying huge natural resources and having a free economy.

The Allies raped the neutrality of Greece few years after that, and it wasnt the slightest bit more "morally justified".
WTF Who did what when?

That and not getting beaten in wars and enjoying huge natural resources and having a free economy.
Oh Yeah, 'the more free the market, the more free the people' what a sham:rolleyes: .

Oh Yeah, 'the more free the market, the more free the people' what a sham:rolleyes: .
Well, regardless of your position, you'd have to acknowledge that the economic freedom in the US before 1929 contributed a lot to its industrial buildup which ultimately made it the powerful nation it is.

The Italians perhaps not, but you've been reading too many revisionist sources if you truly believe the "just following orders" argument for the Germans.
:p Ha! The Italians invented Fascism! 'Fascismo' Where do you think the Germans got the idea from?! Oh the Italians (as a country) were into it alright, Mussolini had them all riled up about reforming the glory of Rome. However, it should be noted that Italian soldiers are notorious for not taking war seriously (generalisation, but holds some truth), so their lackadiasical approach to superiority and hate was charming and fun. How can you hate fascists when they are so funny?! (Take Berlusconi :p)

What if you just read what I say? And really do your best to get the point of it?
Since you seem to be unable to do that, let me help you with this simplification;

Germany did wrong when it invaded Belgium in 1914, no question about it. I never said anything else.

UK and France did wrong when they built their empires, and when they invaded Greece in 1916.

This means that the UK and France have morally no higher grounds in comparison to the Germany.

Is there something you disagree with?


Yessir, there is.

I vehemently disagree with each and every word spoken or written in an attempt to relativize, or 'put into perspective'.

The attempt per se is morally reprehensible.

Yessir, there is.

I vehemently disagree with each and every word spoken or written in an attempt to relativize, or 'put into perspective'.

The attempt per se is morally reprehensible.
I don't know what you said but i think i agree.

I don't know what you said but i think i agree.

In short words, my position is that :
each and every attempt to show that a bad thing,
is not so bad ( or excusable) because someone else is ( accused of) doing it too,
is in and by itself morally wrong.

'your honour, I was only mugging the old woman because my EBIL neighbour was mugging an old man'
'peer pressure made me do it! I'm NOT responsible! I'm a a victim!'

Germany just needs to move the **** on. The past is the past.
"The past isn't past. It isn't even dead."
You happen to be a good example why senseless "moving on" is such a bad idea. I get the impression you want Germans/the world to "move on" so you can enjoy all the "cool" panzers and uniforms.

You're not acknowledging it, you're forever making amends for it.

The German "Army?" You call it that? For a nation that used to be the most powerful in Europe, it's pretty embarrassing that you can now probably be defeated by Poland.
Haha, defeated by Poland, how droll. :D
Even if Poland had an army capable of taking on Germany on its own, they'd probably have to worry about getting cold in winter when the Russians cut the gas supplies. And that's assuming no one else would bother to help Germany and watch their economies go down with it.

"The past isn't past. It isn't even dead."
You happen to be a good example why senseless "moving on" is such a bad idea. I get the impression you want Germans/the world to "move on" so you can enjoy all the "cool" panzers and uniforms.

Dude, every other nation has moved on from everything else. The Soviet purges, Mao's work, Armenian Genocide... nobody cares about that. But when humans are living on Mars and flying around in spaceships, people will still be reminiscing about the no-longer-existing Germans and their evilness.

Haha, defeated by Poland, how droll. :D
Even if Poland had an army capable of taking on Germany on its own, they'd probably have to worry about getting cold in winter when the Russians cut the gas supplies. And that's assuming no one else would bother to help Germany and watch their economies go down with it.

Why would anybody help Germany? Nobody needs Germany. If they got conquered, everybody'd just be like "Oh well, let's just get friendlier with China."

Why would anybody help Germany? Nobody needs Germany. If they got conquered, everybody'd just be like "Oh well, let's just get friendlier with China."

*raises one eyebrow*

You may be slighlty mistaken if you assume that the French, Belgians, Dutch, Luxembourgers and Danes would prefer polish neighbours over german ones.

Nevermind the fact that China is too distant ( in more than one sense ) to play an intra-european role.

*raises one eyebrow*

You may be slighlty mistaken if you assume that the French, Belgians, Dutch, Luxembourgers and Danes would prefer polish neighbours over german ones.

I think the general world consensus is that everybody would rather have Poles than Germans.

I think the general world consensus is that everybody would rather have Poles than Germans.

I wouldn't know what the world concensus might be. But I have a few inklings about the opinions of those nations that I mentioned.

Perhaps I'm overly prudish about such things, but I find that my affection for the land of Pope JPII and Lech Walesa is not enlarged by getting semi-accosted by beerguzzlers who can't see as much as a skirt without making loud remarks about Kurva-this and Kurva-that.

I wouldn't know what the world concensus might be. But I have a few inklings about the opinions of those nations that I mentioned.

Why wouldn't the French, Belgians, Dutch, Luxembourgers and Danes prefer the Poles as neighbours over the Germans? The Poles are a bit less Hunnic, less barbaric, maybe.

Why wouldn't the French, Belgians, Dutch, Luxembourgers and Danes prefer the Poles as neighbours over the Germans? The Poles are a bit less Hunnic, less barbaric, maybe.

I can't escape the feeling that you are trying to draw out an anti-polish diatribe. I've said on that topic all I wish to say, and can't be bothered to go on about it.

I can't escape the feeling that you are trying to draw out an anti-polish diatribe. I've said on that topic all I wish to say, and can't be bothered to go on about it.

No, I'm trying to point out that the Germans still aren't welcome in the world community, despite the fact that most involved in WWII are long dead.

Ever hear that time when a German minister went to Israel to give a speech or something, but the Israelis wouldn't let him speak German?

Yessir, there is.

I vehemently disagree with each and every word spoken or written in an attempt to relativize, or 'put into perspective'.

The attempt per se is morally reprehensible.
You know...you were the one who started comparing. Looking at things in isolation is one thing, but you weren't interested in that: You said pretty explicitly that Germany was worse than Britain or France.

As such, it matters what the Allies did.

Ever hear that time when a German minister went to Israel to give a speech or something, but the Israelis wouldn't let him speak German?
Funny...we had Köhler, Merkel and Steinmeier travel there in the past few months, and all three of them spoke German there.

And the UK and France didn't rape all of Africa, The Middle East, India, Indochina, and America?

actually no they didn't

Funny...we had Köhler, Merkel and Steinmeier travel there in the past few months, and all three of them spoke German there.

Yes, but the fact that even one was not allowed to speak German is an insult.

Yes, but the fact that even one was not allowed to speak German is an insult.
Do you have a link about that? When, where, and what were the reasons?

The Allies raped the neutrality of Greece few years after that, and it wasnt the slightest bit more "morally justified".
Comment damn you!

Do you have a link about that? When, where, and what were the reasons?

I can't find a link, so you're not going to believe me. But I know what I read. It was specifically because it was German, "the language of the Holocaust." If you read the Wikipedia article on "Anti-German Sentiment," there's a bit about Israeli attitudes towards the Germans.

I can't find a link, so you're not going to believe me. But I know what I read. It was specifically because it was German, "the language of the Holocaust."
Maybe there were calls for it. But I can't imagine that the Israeli government would have accepted such calls. German politicians didn't visit Israel for ages after it was founded, I believe, and in more modern times the two governments are good friends.
Not to forget that German was one of the main Jewish languages once, and Yiddish is that close that I can actually understand it.

If you read the Wikipedia article on "Anti-German Sentiment," there's a bit about Israeli attitudes towards the Germans.
Yes, primarily that the government considers Germany a very good friend and ally.
http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/archives/background/israel.html

Dude, every other nation has moved on from everything else. The Soviet purges, Mao's work, Armenian Genocide... nobody cares about that. But when humans are living on Mars and flying around in spaceships, people will still be reminiscing about the no-longer-existing Germans and their evilness.Forgetting about it and burying it in a corner hoping no one will find it isn't "moving on". It's called "covering up".
Why would anybody help Germany? Nobody needs Germany. If they got conquered, everybody'd just be like "Oh well, let's just get friendlier with China."If you honestly think that no one is dependent on Europe's largest economy at all, you may need to do some learning.

No, I'm trying to point out that the Germans still aren't welcome in the world community, despite the fact that most involved in WWII are long dead.

Ever hear that time when a German minister went to Israel to give a speech or something, but the Israelis wouldn't let him speak German?President, not minister. He got to speak it. Some representatives from the Likud block left in protest, to which my Israeli friend remarked that no one really cared about their opinion anyway.

I can't find a link, so you're not going to believe me. But I know what I read. It was specifically because it was German, "the language of the Holocaust." If you read the Wikipedia article on "Anti-German Sentiment," there's a bit about Israeli attitudes towards the Germans.You actually go on Wiki to look for things like "Anti-German sentiment"? You really have a victim complex.

You actually go on Wiki to look for things like "Anti-German sentiment"? You really have a victim complex.
Don't you?;)

Don't you?;)Yes, but that would have to do with my ex and not with my ethnicity :p

Yes, but that would have to do with my ex and not with my ethnicity :p
Your ex???
What did they do?

If you honestly think that no one is dependent on Europe's largest economy at all, you may need to do some learning.

Oh yeah? Who? In the modern world, if you're not the United States, China or India, you're expendable.

Your ex???
What did they do?Just one. Ex-girlfriend. I'm pretty much over her now, though. ;)

Just one. Ex-girlfriend. I'm pretty much over her now, though. ;)
So you wont let me dredge.

Oh yeah? Who? In the modern world, if you're not the United States, China or India, you're expendable.Like I said, do some research. You'd be surprised.

You actually go on Wiki to look for things like "Anti-German sentiment"? You really have a victim complex.

I looked at it when searching for that thing.

So you wont let me dredge.Not really. Part of my "getting over her" strategy entails not making her a big topic in my life. :)

Like I said, do some research. You'd be surprised.

What, so they export stuff? Like I said, anybody can do that. If Germany disappeared, someone else can fill the void.

Not really. Part of my "getting over her" strategy entails not making her a big topic in my life. :)
OK was she Nigerian?

What, so they export stuff? Like I said, anybody can do that. If Germany disappeared, someone else can fill the void.Naive notion. Do the research. Learn.

OK was she Nigerian?I will neither confirm nor deny that, but I will hint that the answer can be found in one of the threads of the last year :)

Naive notion. Do the research. Learn.

Listen, Germany is not an economic power. Their PPP is only 5th in the world. Not a player.

I will neither confirm nor deny that, but I will hint that the answer can be found in one of the threads of the last year :)
So she was a Pole...
Does Germany have a Nigerian Prostitute problem?

Listen, Germany is not an economic power. Their PPP is only 5th in the world. Not a player.K-P, you remind me of the little kids I did homework with. They'd find all sorts of tricks for me to do their homework for them. I know them all by now. I'm not doing your homework for you.

K-P, you remind me of the little kids I did homework with. They'd find all sorts of tricks for me to do their homework for them. I know them all by now. I'm not doing your homework for you.

Uhh... huh.

K-P, you remind me of the little kids I did homework with. They'd find all sorts of tricks for me to do their homework for them. I know them all by now. I'm not doing your homework for you.

*nods and grins*

So she was a Pole...
Does Germany have a Nigerian Prostitute problem?
Well, okay, I'll answer... Oh! Darn, out of time! Sorry, I have a flight to Paris I need to catch. Maybe I'll answer later, if I remember :p

Well, okay, I'll answer... Oh! Darn, out of time! Sorry, I have a flight to Paris I need to catch. Maybe I'll answer later, if I remember :p
A Frog!:eek:

You know...you were the one who started comparing. Looking at things in isolation is one thing, but you weren't interested in that: You said pretty explicitly that Germany was worse than Britain or France.

As such, it matters what the Allies did.


Funny...we had Köhler, Merkel and Steinmeier travel there in the past few months, and all three of them spoke German there.

Obviously. After all, the Central Powers were starting the War.
Theirs is the blame, and any attempt to argue the point shows the arguer as a sophist, which is to say, an evil person.

Furthermore, as should have been pretty obvious, I was comparing the level of civility within the various States mentioned. Is it your belief, then, that the 2nd Empire was just as democratic and liberal as the 3rd Republic?

The axis troops should march straight to hell! They killed 60 MILLION people, and now we should forgive them? How can somebody from 101 Airborn walk hand-by-hand with somebody from Waffen SS?

The axis troops should march straight to hell! They killed 60 MILLION people, and now we should forgive them? How can somebody from 101 Airborn walk hand-by-hand with somebody from Waffen SS?

60 million people were killed in WWII. And we all know that there were no Axis casualties.

And we all know that all German soldiers are bloodthirsty maniacs.

Get lost, dipshit.

60 million people were killed in WWII. And we all know that there were no Axis casualties.

And we all know that all German soldiers are bloodthirsty maniacs.

Get lost, dipshit.

Fuck off Nazi!

Why do you think that only Germans are portraited bad? What about Chinesse, Rusians, North Koreans, Serbs...

Fuck off Nazi!

Why do you think that only Germans are portraited bad? What about Chinesse, Rusians, North Koreans, Serbs...

personaly, i would atribute this mostly to the fact that people are idiots.

that and a whole bunch of propaganda and politicial stupidity.. which really just proves the first point.

incidently, isn't there some rule/law/thingy about mentioning the nazis? .. you know, the one that only an infinatly long thread that never mentions them can violate?

yeah, this one just avoided violateing it. ahh well.

personaly, i would atribute this mostly to the fact that people are idiots.

that and a whole bunch of propaganda and politicial stupidity.. which really just proves the first point.

incidently, isn't there some rule/law/thingy about mentioning the nazis? .. you know, the one that only an infinatly long thread that never mentions them can violate?

yeah, this one just avoided violateing it. ahh well.
But if you call the law you lose.:(

personaly, i would atribute this mostly to the fact that people are idiots.

that and a whole bunch of propaganda and politicial stupidity.. which really just proves the first point.

incidently, isn't there some rule/law/thingy about mentioning the nazis? .. you know, the one that only an infinatly long thread that never mentions them can violate?

yeah, this one just avoided violateing it. ahh well.

It is forbbiden to mention Nazis, but it's OK if they are having an parade?

But if you call the law you lose.:(

fair enough. i wasn't actually part of the argument befor commenting on it, so me loseing is a non-issue.

'sides, i didn't call it, as such. hehe. not the vaguerys and so on.

more like accidently summned it by way of falling and setting off an amuseing chain reaction includeing bowling balls and rodents that did the job.

It is forbbiden to mention Nazis, but it's OK if they are having an parade?

not a forum rule. you're thinking rules/laws like governments.

i'm talking rules/laws like physics.

i just can't remember what it's called. actually, i think this thread was kinda inately incapable of violateing it.

Obviously. After all, the Central Powers were starting the War.
The consenus in the other thread I started regarding that discussion was that it was not Germany's fault.

Theirs is the blame, and any attempt to argue the point shows the arguer as a sophist, which is to say, an evil person.
In that case I am an evil person.

Furthermore, as should have been pretty obvious, I was comparing the level of civility within the various States mentioned. Is it your belief, then, that the 2nd Empire was just as democratic and liberal as the 3rd Republic?
Civility and democracy are the same thing?
Well, AFAIK I know, the German press was at times quite heavily laying into members of parliament. However, the Emperor and the military was usually off limits - not sure whether that was self-censorship (ie like in the US today, just a little stronger) or actual laws (ie like in Iran).

How can somebody from 101 Airborn walk hand-by-hand with somebody from Waffen SS?
Why couldn't they?

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,389491,00.html
If Jewish inmates of the concentration camps can meet and talk with their former guards, then anything the SS may or may not have done to US-units can easily be settled.

The Turks weren't very Noble anyways unless not taking prisoners is noble......

So what does anyone tihnk about a Maori leading the Sydney ANZAC day March?
I think it was bloody Awesome.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/matlhendo/nfplan3.jpg
LOL

With the night came confirmation that they were indeed surrounded by Rommel: "We were told the attack would come with dawn."

The Maori Battalion got together. They decided to strike Rommel's soldiers first. They got their weapons ready. Worked out their plan. Chino and his fellow soldiers stalked up to the German lines.

"We did the Maori Haka [a Maori war dance]. Ka mate! Ka Mate!" The Battalion all chanted in unison. The sound was electrifying, Chino said. It carried on the desert night air. Chino felt the pride of his homeland. The boy became brave.

"Ka Mate, Ka Mate!. We were all doing the war cry. It gave us courage and it scared the Germans. They didn't like it. And we fought to survive."

Chino and the Maori Battalion broke through he Panzer lines. They cut an opening for all the Battalion's trucks and guns. They were surrounded no more.

Of course, the 28th Maori Battalion eventually wound up hounding Rommel out of Africa with some of the most spectacular feats of bravery and warfare cunning. Acts which have been (and will continue to be) mirrored in spirit by the anti-fascist heroes of the shaky isles in their current campaign against the Nazis of today.

It is also rather pertinent to note at this point that many Kiwi white supremacists seem to forget the fact that roughly a third of the people STILL "defending New Zealand" in the Armed Forces are Maori. This simple yet eloquent tribute from a New Zealand schoolboy, best sums up the spirit of the Maori in times of conflict:


The Maori Battalion was held in high regard by both their fellow Allied soldiers and the enemy they faced. Their prowess was acknowledged by allies and enemies alike. A fellow NZ soldier was heard to say of them : "I'd rather fight the German's any day than have to clash with the Maori." The Maori often used very dangerous but very unexpected tactics and despite the fact that some people may have looked down on them for being a "lesser" race, it would have been hard to query their enthusiasm or bravery. The Maori Battalion had a horrendous number of casualties, yet this was not because they were bad fighters. They simply gave everything they had, and so they were admired and feared by most.


If you like Liberals mocking Nazis go here.
http://fightdemback.blogspot.com/2005/02/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.html
It also shows you ho you have to kill.;)

Maori Battalion march to victory
Maori Battalion staunch and true
Maori Battalion march to glory
Take the honour of the people with you
We will march, march, march to the enemy
And we'll fight right to the end.
For God! For King! And for Country!
AU - E! Ake, ake, kia kaha e!
Bloody awesome

Maori Battalion Marching Song Full version


In the days that have now gone
when the Maoris went to war
They fought and fought until the last man died
for the honour of their tribe
And so we carry on
the conditions they have laid
And as we go on day by day
You will always hear us say...


Maori Battalion march to victory
Maori Battalion staunch and true
Maori Battalion march to glory
Take the honour of the people with you
We will march, march, march to the enemy
And we'll fight right to the end.
For God! For King! And for Country!
AU - E! Ake, ake, kia kaha e!


A loyal band of Maoris
Sailing from New Zealand
To win us freedom and peace
Marching shoulder to shoulder onward
And we will shout again
Ake aka kia kaha e
Haere tonu haere tonu ra
Kia - o - ra Kia - o - ra