NationStates Jolt Archive

Welcome to the civilized world :D

Story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060423/ap_on_re_eu/sweden_language_change")
STOCKHOLM, Sweden - The letter 'W' has entered the mainstream of the Swedish language, getting its own section for the first time in the country's most respected dictionary.

While 'W' has long been a letter in its own right in other Nordic languages, Swedish linguists have always viewed it as a lesser sibling of the letter 'V,' as the two letters are pronounced identically in Swedish.

The few Swedish words that use 'W' have generally been borrowed from other languages — such as "watt," "walkie-talkie" and the "World Wide Web" — and have so far always been lumped under the 'V' section in dictionaries.

Sweden is called "Sverige" in Swedish and its language is named "Svenska."

But the Swedish Academy, which awards the Nobel Prize in literature and whose members are considered the guardians of the Swedish language, decided it was time for 'W' to come out of the shadows.

The letter, called "double-v" in Swedish, "can no longer be sorted in under the single V," the academy said when it introduced the 13th edition of its dictionary this week.

The change means that the Swedish language, at least according to the academy, now has 29 letters instead of 28.

It's kinda neat to see the evolution of languages like this.



What letters are in the swedish alphabet that aren't in the english one, btw?

They immediately wage war with Wales.

They immediately wage war with Wales.
With women and wonderful weapons. They win.

linky wont work for me :(

With women and wonderful weapons. They win.

"Woohoo!"

linky wont work for me :(
try it now

What letters are in the swedish alphabet that aren't in the english one, btw?


Å, Ä, Ö

nobody cares.

try it now
Nope.. but meh. google gave me this; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192748,00.html

"Woohoo!"
the well weaned women whined, wanting to writh and whither with women of whinsome wants.

who cares.

the swedes, perhaps?

*obligatory :rolleyes: *

the swedes, perhaps?

*obligatory :rolleyes: *
If you havent noticed, I changed the text of that post.

the well weaned women whined, wanting to writh and whither with women of whinsome wants.
Why would women want such wild ways of working?

the well weaned women whined, wanting to writh and whither with women of whinsome wants.

They went on a whim, to whet their appetites for wandering the world. :)

Nope.. but meh. google gave me this; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192748,00.html
fox lies. boycott them.

Why would women want such wild ways of working?
why, to whet their whithering withdrawls while watching wild women wanking with wonderous abandon.

fox lies. boycott them.
I agree, but its what I could find..

They went on a whim, to whet their appetites for wandering the world. :)
And so they went west, where the wind was warm, and were wooed by winsome boys with wild ways.

why, to whet their whithering withdrawls while watching wild women wanking with wonderous abandon.
Well why wouldn't want to wank while withering?

I find it ironic that it took them untill now to put the letter in thier alphabet, especially since the "w" is in the name of thier country.

Så går en dag än från vårt liv och kommer aldrig åter, bör jag väl säga.

I find this action superfluous. Looking up words of foreign origin commenced by "w" under the heading of "v" was not that vexing at all. I guess I shall just hope this doesn't lead to someone trying to invent proper Swedish words with "w" in them, an exercise in futility, seeing as there is no difference between it and "v."

Pointless populist pandering.

I find the fact that it took them untill now to put the letter in thier alphabet, especially since the "w" is in the name of thier country.

"Sverige." Where do you see the "w"?

I find the fact that it took them untill now to put the letter in thier alphabet, especially since the "w" is in the name of thier country.

I don't think you found the fact, as your post clearly came after the article was written. Also, I fail to find a W in their country's name.

I find it ironic that it took them untill now to put the letter in thier alphabet, especially since the "w" is in the name of thier country.

Wrong. In English, there is a "w" in their name, however, they are not an English speaking language.

"Sverige." Where do you see the "w"?
It's there, you just can't see it, but I know that it, like Jesus, must exist because I feel it to be so in my heart.

Bah! It's a well known fact that any language that doesn't have a ñ is worthless.

I don't think you found the fact, as your post clearly came after the article was written. Also, I fail to find a W in their country's name.

I'm sorry, I had a typo on the post. I corrected it now.

Plus, I found it ironic from an english speaker's standpoint.

I'm sorry, I had a typo on the post. I corrected it now.

Plus, I found it ironic from an english speaker's standpoint.

Their is, EI not IE....

And, it isn't ironic seeing how English speakers made the word up far after they named themselves. Their alphabet and the English alphabet are not interconnected in anyway, so their letters and lack there of do not dictate each other.

nobody cares.

Ignorance is ugly

fox lies. boycott them.

You're just on a roll aren't you?

Fox doesn't lie. They're biased to the right. Just like CNN and most other news sources are biased in favor of the left. Frankly, and even as an American myself, this obsession with bipartisan news is ridiculous. All news is biased. If I want to get a conservative viewpoint I watch Fox or read the Wall Street Journal. If I want liberals, I'll watch CBS and read the New York Times. It's really quite simple.

Å, Ä, Ö
so they just draw dots over them?

so they just draw dots over them?

They are pronounced differently

They are pronounced differently
So? That doesn't make them different letters. The two e's in "letters", for instance, are pronounced differently, same e. Accents, umlauts, and other such etceteras don't make it a different letter, they just amount to obssesive overpunctuation.

They must have been really having trouble insulting the American president up until now.

so they just draw dots over them?
Those dots have names.

Å, Ä, Ö

those are just fancy ways of writing A and O;)

Bloody swedes. They already have hot woman and get to finish up at Valhalla, and now they want our letter W? It's only really useful for seperating the dumb guy from the smart guy..

nobody cares.

You cared enough to post :D

does this mean that everyone in sweden will have to purchase a new computer keyboard with a W on it ? or do they already have a W on the keyboard and the whole of sweden is going, so that is what that fucking button was for. unfortunatly a 16 year old has commited suicide after being convinced that the W button was a button that gave him everlasting life, and was so upset that now it only helped him spell waffle and willy

does this mean that everyone in sweden will have to purchase a new computer keyboard with a W on it ? or do they already have a W on the keyboard and the whole of sweden is going, so that is what that fucking button was for. unfortunatly a 16 year old has commited suicide after being convinced that the W button was a button that gave him everlasting life, and was so upset that now it only helped him spell waffle and willy

I do hope you're joking.

so do i

So? That doesn't make them different letters. The two e's in "letters", for instance, are pronounced differently, same e. Accents, umlauts, and other such etceteras don't make it a different letter, they just amount to obssesive overpunctuation.

in a perfect alphabet, phonemes and letters would be identical. english does not have a perfect alphabet. we don't even have a seperate letter for our most common vowel.

what's the point of using the same symbol for radically different sounds? it just serves to screw things up.

So? That doesn't make them different letters. The two e's in "letters", for instance, are pronounced differently, same e. Accents, umlauts, and other such etceteras don't make it a different letter, they just amount to obssesive overpunctuation.
It does make them different. If we take the word "letters", for example, in Romanian it would be spelled "letărs". The tiny "smiling mouth" on top of the "A" turns it into a diferent letter, pronounced differently. After all, "G" was created by the Romans out of "C", by adding a horizontal line to it. And everybody calls it a different letter.

It does make them different. If we take the word "letters", for example, in Romanian it would be spelled "letărs". The tiny "smiling mouth" on top of the "A" turns it into a diferent letter, pronounced differently. After all, "G" was created by the Romans out of "C", by adding a horizontal line to it. And everybody calls it a different letter.

or we can just look at the thread starting letter W, which is clearly just a digraph made of two Vs, and is named "two Us" (and, of course, U and V themselves originated as a single letter).

in a perfect alphabet, phonemes and letters would be identical. english does not have a perfect alphabet. we don't even have a seperate letter for our most common vowel.

what's the point of using the same symbol for radically different sounds? it just serves to screw things up.
Phonemic languages are bad, apparently. Can't remember why. Maybe someone who knows something about linguistics could help?

in a perfect alphabet, phonemes and letters would be identical. english does not have a perfect alphabet. we don't even have a seperate letter for our most common vowel.

what's the point of using the same symbol for radically different sounds? it just serves to screw things up.

A rough-coated, dough-faced, thoughtful ploughman strode through the streets of Scarborough; after falling into a slough, he coughed and hiccoughed.
:)

Phonemic languages are bad, apparently. Can't remember why. Maybe someone who knows something about linguistics could help?


i know that i hate being able to look at a word and know how to pronounce it without making an ass of myself

Phonemic languages are bad, apparently. Can't remember why. Maybe someone who knows something about linguistics could help?
They must be bad because it's too easy to learn how to spell them. That's why. How else could you separate the elite from the unwashed peasants? ;)

Edit: that's an irony, in case somebody doesn't get it. I'm all for phonetic alphabets. They're way cooler. :cool:

They must be bad because it's too easy to learn how to spell them. That's why. How else could you separate the elite from the unwashed peasants? ;)

Edit: that's an irony, in case somebody doesn't get it. I'm all for phonetic alphabets. They're way cooler. :cool:

I could swear that we were talking about phonemic languages. :)

They must be bad because it's too easy to learn how to spell them. That's why. How else could you separate the elite from the unwashed peasants? ;)

Edit: that's an irony, in case somebody doesn't get it. I'm all for phonetic alphabets. They're way cooler. :cool:
(People really don't seem to get irony here... I know it's hard over text, but still. I got that though, but that's because I am teh uber-smart.)

I wish I could remember the real reason, but seeing as my only knowledge of linguistics is from reading a Steven Pinker book (sorta like pop-linguistics, but still fecking complicated - X-Theory maes me hurt), I'm not really qualified to comment. I shall check on why, though, see if I can find out.

EDIT: Phonemic languages are ok, it's phonetic ones that are bad. (http://members.fortunecity.com/rapidrytr/Spell/badarguments.htm)

I could swear that we were talking about phonemic languages. :)
I know what a phonetic alphabet is. I don't know what a phonemic language is. A language which has phonemes*, maybe? :p

* phoneme = sound

I could swear that we were talking about phonemic languages. :)

"Phonemic language" makes no sense as a term. All languages are phonemic as all languages must have phonemes to be languages.

I know what a phonetic alphabet is. I don't know what a phonemic language is. A language which has phonemes*, maybe? :p

* phoneme = sound

phoneme = "The smallest phonetic unit in a language that is capable of conveying a distinction in meaning, as the m of mat and the b of bat in English."

phoneme = "The smallest phonetic unit in a language that is capable of conveying a distinction in meaning, as the m of mat and the b of bat in English."
Wikipedia. :)

"Phonemic language" makes no sense as a term. All languages are phonemic as all languages must have phonemes to be languages.

All right then, phonemic orthography/alphabet.

"Phonemic language" makes no sense as a term. All languages are phonemic as all languages must have phonemes to be languages.
Sorry, bad choice of words. I meant phonemic alphabets.

I did mean to edit it, after I posted. I regret not doing so now. :)

Sorry, bad choice of words. I meant phonemic alphabets.

The alphabet is phonemic to a large degree. What you want to say is probably "phonemic writing/spelling system."

Meh, either way is pretty good. Most suggestions for phonemic writing use digraphs for the unlettered phonemes, but you could come up with a brand new alphabet or extra letters either. It'd just be even more effort.

A great day for former tennis ace Mats Wilander and authors Maj Sjöwall and Per Wahlöö.

does this mean that everyone in sweden will have to purchase a new computer keyboard with a W on it ? or do they already have a W on the keyboard and the whole of sweden is going, so that is what that fucking button was for. unfortunatly a 16 year old has commited suicide after being convinced that the W button was a button that gave him everlasting life, and was so upset that now it only helped him spell waffle and willy
Did you read the part about the Swedish have imported words with the letter 'w' in?

Besides, to navigate to this site you must have typed in a 'w' to your address bar. Fass is Swedish, ergo the Swedish don't have 'w's on their keyboards and when ever they want to visit a website which has a www in it they have to open character map up and find the 'w' in a font and put into their clipboard.

All this talk about the w has led me to believe it should be replaced. Perhaps by ╡. It looks nicer. So, from no╡ on I declare ╡e should move the 'w' out from our keyboards and ╡elcome '╡', clearly a much better choice.

You're just on a roll aren't you?

Fox doesn't lie. They're biased to the right. Just like CNN and most other news sources are biased in favor of the left. Frankly, and even as an American myself, this obsession with bipartisan news is ridiculous. All news is biased. If I want to get a conservative viewpoint I watch Fox or read the Wall Street Journal. If I want liberals, I'll watch CBS and read the New York Times. It's really quite simple.
actually, their reports are so biased they could be considered flase..

All this talk about the w has led me to believe it should be replaced. Perhaps by ╡. It looks nicer. So, from no╡ on I declare ╡e should move the 'w' out from our keyboards and ╡elcome '╡', clearly a much better choice.

You'll have to redesign the internet a little.

Welcome to the civilized world :D

Story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060423/ap_on_re_eu/sweden_language_change")
Wonderful! :Dhttp://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

You'll have to redesign the internet a little.
Not a little, a lot.

Not a little, a lot.
I forgot we'd have to change your name. You're right.

This thread is utterly pointless.
In Swedish, "w" is "double-v".
In English, "w" is "double-u" which looks nothing like a double-u. Observe: W =/= UU.
"W" is, in fact, two letters put together. That letter is "v".
Swedish keyboards have "w" on them. As if that wasn't obvious, seeing as to how the West uses the Latin alphabet.

I'm proud to have never spoken or heard those loan words, as English is a terrible trend language in my opinion.

This thread is utterly pointless.
In Swedish, "w" is "double-v".
In English, "w" is "double-u" which looks nothing like a double-u. Observe: W =/= UU.
"W" is, in fact, two letters put together. That letter is "v".
Swedish keyboards have "w" on them. As if that wasn't obvious, seeing as to how the West uses the Latin alphabet.

I'm proud to have never spoken or heard those loan words, as English is a terrible trend language in my opinion.

Loan words, such as...?

This thread is utterly pointless.
In Swedish, "w" is "double-v".
In English, "w" is "double-u" which looks nothing like a double-u. Observe: W =/= UU.
"W" is, in fact, two letters put together. That letter is "v".
Swedish keyboards have "w" on them. As if that wasn't obvious, seeing as to how the West uses the Latin alphabet.

I'm proud to have never spoken or heard those loan words, as English is a terrible trend language in my opinion.
Its called double U because V's were used as U's in latin.

Loan words, such as...?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10824938&postcount=1
Its called double U because V's were used as U's in latin.
You just ruined my entire arguement. Thanks a lot.
It just seems to me that English is one of the few languages that persists on calling "w" "double-u".

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10824938&postcount=1
Yeah, well, you speak English, which is bad...because...

Yeah, well, you speak English, which is bad...because...
True. However, I also speak Swedish. Thus, my commentary.

True. However, I also speak Swedish. Thus, my commentary.
And you use the internet, in Swedish as well. Thus, making use of the letter W. My argument isn't totally incoherent.

Loan words, such as...?

Walesare/walesisk/walesiska (Welsh), WC, weltervikt (welterweight), Wien (Vienna), wire (usually spelt "vajer")... umm, those are the only ones, apart from those mentioned in the article, that I can think of.

Walesare/walesisk/walesiska (Welsh), WC, weltervikt (welterweight), Wien (Vienna), wire (usually spelt "vajer")... umm, those are the only ones, apart from those mentioned in the article, that I can think of.

You translated them all apart from WC. My bowels and I want to know what it is.
Well, it does seem that there is really no need for a W section in the Swedish dictionary.

My argument isn't totally incoherent.
What argument?
The letter "w" has been part of the Swedish aphabet. Which is why this thread is pointless.
The letter 'W' has entered the mainstream of the Swedish language, getting its own section for the first time in the country's most respected dictionary.
The letter "w" just got slated it own section in the dictionary.

By the by, I was referring to loan words as quoted in the thread while speaking Swedish. There's other terms for them. That should clear this whole thing up, otherwise I don't know where you're comming from.

You translated them all apart from WC. My bowels and I want to know what it is.

WC = Water Closet. I.e, a toilet.

Well, it does seem that there is really no need for a W section in the Swedish dictionary.

We've don fine without one for a long time since there really are not that many loan words that commence with a "w," but I haven't seen the new dictionary, so I can't say how many they've decided to include.

WC = Water Closet. I.e, a toilet.
Was making a bad joke.
We've don fine without one for a long time since there really are not that many loan words that commence with a "w," but I haven't seen the new dictionary, so I can't say how many they've decided to include.
Yeah, it's the same with French. There are about 10 "W" words in my French dictionary; all of them are from English.

What argument?
The letter "w" has been part of the Swedish aphabet. Which is why this thread is pointless.

Not quite. While we have had access to the letter, it has not been officially seen as a letter of its own, but a variant on "v." Thus it not actually having been counted as a letter, which entails the Swedish alphabet having 28 letters, as opposed to 29 after this "addition."

The letter "w" just got slated it own section in the dictionary.

By the by, I was referring to loan words as quoted in the thread while speaking Swedish. There's other terms for them. That should clear this whole thing up, otherwise I don't know where you're comming from.

Watt really has no alternative, seeing as it's a unit, just like English has no alternative to Ångström.

Walkie-talkie, well, I guess one could use "kommunikationsradio" or "tvåvägsradio," but I've always called it "walkie-talkie."

World Wide Web does have its counterparts in "världsomspännande nätverk" och simply "nätet" (which works for the Internet as well, seeing as there is no difference between "web" and "net" in Swedish, both being called "nät"). I'll grant it there - very few people would say "World Wide Web" in Swedish.

Not quite. While we have had access to the letter, it has not been officially seen as a letter of its own, but a variant on "v." Thus it not actually having been counted as a letter, which entails the Swedish alphabet having 28 letters, as opposed to 29 after this "addition."
I realize that, however little children recite in the alphabet "dubble-v". Thus, leading me to believe that "w" exists in the Swedish alphabet as its own letter, while at the same time being treated as a variant of "v".

I suggest you take that up with this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/007145117X/ref=dp_image_0/002-1012078-3657663?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155&s=books) book's 2004 edition, my first contact with the Swedish language.
The Swedish alphabet has 29 letters...
Misleading innocent foreigners. I just might sue.
Watt really has no alternative, seeing as it's a unit, just like English has no alternative to Ångström.
Vatt? :p
No, it really doesn't have an alternative. Much like Newtons.

I realize that, however little children recite in the alphabet "dubble-v".

We never did that, and I was born 1983. Subsequently, I've seen it become more and more common. That's what happens when you live in a time where something new is occurring in a language - what is "official" is not always in sync with the times.

Thus, leading me to believe that "w" exists in the Swedish alphabet as its own letter, while at the same time being treated as a variant of "v".

It officially does now. It didn't prior to this.

I suggest you take that up with this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/007145117X/ref=dp_image_0/002-1012078-3657663?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155&s=books) book's 2004 edition, my first contact with the Swedish language.

Misleading innocent foreigners. I just might sue.

They're not all that misleading. The academy has previously expressed that "w" should start being considered a "proper" letter, but it took them a while to solidify it, which they did in 2005 when they announced the new dictionary, and now that the dictionary has been published, this is apparently starting to makes every so slight waves.

Vatt? :p No, it really doesn't have an alternative. Much like Newtons.

Or degrees Celsius (I have to start there, as he was Swedish, after all), or Sieverts, or Grays, or Becquerels, or Coulombs, or Farads, or Joules, or Ohms (I have a classmate who is a descendant of Ohm and whose last name is unchanged), or Pascals, or Siemens, or Teslas, or Volts, or Webers, or Hertz, or Henrys, or Röntgens, or Svedbergs, or Curies, or Decibels... I could go on! :P

We never did that, and I was born 1983. Subsequently, I've seen it become more and more common. That's what happens when you live in a time where something new is occurring in a language - what is "official" is not always in sync with the times.
Beaurocratic knuckle dragging (http://www.joma.org/images/upload_library/test/science%20pics/gorilla.gif). Not to mention the rogue teachers.
It officially does now. It didn't prior to this.
Then the "w" story likens itself to an alien just getting citizenship after living and working in the country for ages.
They're not all that misleading. The academy has previously expressed that "w" should start being considered a "proper" letter, but it took them a while to solidify it, which they did in 2005 when they announced the new dictionary, and now that the dictionary has been published, this is apparently starting to makes every so slight waves.
The return of beaurocratic knuckle dragging (http://www.joma.org/images/upload_library/test/science%20pics/gorilla.gif). I really hope that words are not created just for using "w".
Or degrees Celsius (I have to start there, as he was Swedish, after all), or Sieverts, or Grays, or Becquerels, or Coulombs, or Farads, or Joules, or Ohms (I have a classmate who is a descendant of Ohm and whose last name is unchanged), or Pascals, or Siemens, or Teslas, or Volts, or Webers, or Hertz, or Henrys, or Röntgens, or Svedbergs, or Curies, or Decibels... I could go on! :P
I know what six of those terms mean, but I must compliment you on getting the point across. :)

This thread is utterly pointless.
In Swedish, "w" is "double-v".
In English, "w" is "double-u" which looks nothing like a double-u. Observe: W =/= UU.
"W" is, in fact, two letters put together. That letter is "v".
Swedish keyboards have "w" on them. As if that wasn't obvious, seeing as to how the West uses the Latin alphabet.

I'm proud to have never spoken or heard those loan words, as English is a terrible trend language in my opinion.
I don't think you get an opinion since you're a swedish speaking Finn. :p

I don't think you get an opinion since you're a swedish speaking Finn. :p
We speak more grammatically correct than real Swedes, so I feel we do. ;)
However, I shouldn't speak for groups I don't actually belong to.
I speak Ålandssvenska, and I'm American.

this means that they'll finally be able to spell their country's name correctly...

SWEDEN

hehe

this means that they'll finally be able to spell their country's name correctly...

SWEDEN

hehe

Vårt land heter Sverige. Och du är inte den förste som sagt detta, mongo.

Vårt land heter Sverige. Och du är inte den förste som sagt detta, mongo.

Now, I understand "and you are not the first to say that, mongo", but "Vårt land heter Sverige", I'm not too sure on.

Now, I understand "and you are not the first to say that, mongo", but "Vårt land heter Sverige", I'm not too sure on.
It should read, "to have said".

It should read, "to have said".
Which is effectively interchangeble with "to say", in the said context...

Which is effectively interchangeble with "to say", in the said context...
I was merely attempting to help you with your Swedish. I apologize for not using a smilie.

Now, I understand "and you are not the first to say that, mongo", but "Vårt land heter Sverige", I'm not too sure on.

"Our country is called Sverige."

I was merely attempting to help you with your Swedish. I apologize for not using a smilie.
My Swedish is non-existent, I'm afraid. Thanks anyway.

"Our country is called Sverige."
All right. I should have worked that out. Vårt is a bit like we/wir, land is obvious and heter is a bit like heißen.

All right. I should have worked that out. Vårt is a bit like we/wir, land is obvious and heter is a bit like heißen.

See! Swedish is a breeze if you know a spot of French, German, English and Dutch... :P

See! Swedish is a breeze if you know a spot of French, German, English and Dutch... :P

Gee, maybe I should learn it...evening classes. Hmm.

Gee, maybe I should learn it...evening classes. Hmm.

While I don't think you should waste your time, if you do learn Swedish, you'll basically be able to understand Norwegian and Danish off the bat, so, it may not be as futile as it seemed at a cursory glance...

While I don't think you should waste your time, if you do learn Swedish, you'll basically be able to understand Norwegian and Danish off the bat, so, it may not be as futile as it seemed at a cursory glance...

On an Italian to Dutch scale, tell me how difficult it is to learn.

On an Italian to Dutch scale, tell me how difficult it is to learn.

Italian being easy and Dutch being hard, or vice versa?

In any case, I'd say it's probably a bit easier than German.

actually, their reports are so biased they could be considered flase..

God forbid anything be considered "flase"

God forbid anything be considered "flase"
Gravedig to the max!

Gravedig to the max!

...not max really...

you want a gravedig to the max? oh I'll give you a gravedig to the max!

Does this mean Sweden now needs a new version of Scrabble?

Does this mean Sweden now needs a new version of Scrabble?
I think it has been established that a small number of words, which begin with w, were/are already in use...

Gravedig to the max!
Heh. Check the one Czardas just reported in Moderation. Two and a half years. This isn't even a week.