NationStates Jolt Archive

Well I guess the thread is self-explanatory. *)

*) And if it is not, read this:

Suddenly seemingly out of nowhere, a huge fleet of alien battleships arrives at the orbit of our beloved blue planet. Our new alien overlords demand that we either outlaw western-style roleplaying games or Japanese roleplaying games. They threaten to completely wipe out the city of Bielefeld if we do not comply with their demands. So, which of the two RPG styles would you like to keep?

Fuck Bielefeld. Keep both.

Japanese RPGs have good character depth and deep storylines, while Western RPGs have customisability and huge, open worlds. I've been moving towards Western RPGs lately, what with Oblivion and all. I'm trying to design a good mix: immersive storyline and deep characters with and wide, non-linear world.

What do you mean by "western" RPG's?

What do you mean by "western" RPG's?

I think K-P explained it very good.

They threaten to completely wipe out the city of Bielefeld if we do not comply with their demands.

Nuts to them, it doesn't exist. ;)


Western RPGs are better, definitely. While Japanese RPGs can be great fun and have intricate storylines, Western RPGs win by a greater involvement of the player in the game's plotline. A good Western RPG will usually comprise multiple subquests and endings, or if not, multiple pathways to achieve this (though admittedly, there are certain Japanese examples that feature this, but it is much more common in Western games). Western RPGs also have a greater degree of player control (ranging from a need to eat, to the ability to hunt or fish, to adopting certain traits for your character), usually greater NPC interaction, etc., etc. In general, if I were to describe it in a sentence, Western RPGs provide a far superior approximation of the real world than Japanese RPGs because of their greater complexity.

www.adom.de

^ this game alone is why Western RPGs win. :D

RPGs make me angry. Give me a good shooter any day.

I'm trying to design a good mix: immersive storyline and deep characters with and wide, non-linear world.

Try Fallout 2.

Try Fallout 2.

I'm trying to make ones that's hugely popular.

Nuts to them, it doesn't exist. ;)


Western RPGs are better, definitely. While Japanese RPGs can be great fun and have intricate storylines, Western RPGs win by a greater involvement of the player in the game's plotline. A good Western RPG will usually comprise multiple subquests and endings, or if not, multiple pathways to achieve this (though admittedly, there are certain Japanese examples that feature this, but it is much more common in Western games). Western RPGs also have a greater degree of player control (ranging from a need to eat, to the ability to hunt or fish, to adopting certain traits for your character), usually greater NPC interaction, etc., etc. In general, if I were to describe it in a sentence, Western RPGs provide a far superior approximation of the real world than Japanese RPGs because of their greater complexity.

www.adom.de

^ this game alone is why Western RPGs win. :D

Good points.

I personally prefer Japanese RPGs because I like a good story with interesting characters and I don't think that realism itself is good gameplay (and the kind of realism achieved with current technology often seems kind of "dead" to me - a good example here would be Oblivion).

Something else I dislike about Western RPGs is that the gameworlds always are so boring. They all seem to be some kind of Tolkien/Medieval clone.

A example with both good characters/story and sufficiently realistic gameworld would be Deus Ex.

EDIT: Here's another reason why I prefer story over realism. You need a motivation (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/10/07) to play the game. ;)

Good points.

I personally prefer Japanese RPGs because I like a good story with interesting characters and I don't think that realism itself is good gameplay (and the kind of realism achieved with current technology often seems kind of "dead" to me - a good example here would be Oblivion).

Maybe it's due to me playing RPG's from a young age. In earlier days, it was harder to compare games to the real world because of the terrible graphics limitations. Being able to bake bread in Ultima VII however was a major difference to J-RPGs of that era, which were primarily combat oriented (although I loved Secret of Mana, and still do). As such, i've grown up thinking in that mindset, where graphics and technical limitations don't bother me much, as long as I can attempt to emulate a real-life experience. This is probably a major reason why I enjoy roguelikes like ADOM, Omega, Nethack, etc, which have virtually non-existent graphics engines and focus more upon gameplay flexibility than anything else.

Oh, and J-RPGs aren't the only ones with interesting character development. While the Elder Scrolls series admittedly falls flat in this regard (while excelling at many other things), there are many other exceptions, particularly the Baldurs Gate series.

Something else I dislike about Western RPGs is that the gameworlds always are so boring. They all seem to be some kind of Tolkien/Medieval clone.

A example with both good characters/story and sufficiently realistic gameworld would be Deus Ex.

Often, but there are several notable examples that spring to mind in addition to Deus Ex:

Arcanum (set in a fantasy world undergoing an industrial revolution)
Wasteland, Fallout (set in a post-nuclear holocaust world)
Ultima Underworld (you're thrown into an underground dungeon as a prisoner, and have nothing. Somewhat cliché, but I don't find the Ultima games very Tolkein-like, and they don't descend into the level of blandness that many fantasy RPGs do. I highly recommend Ultima 7 too.)
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (no explanation necessary)
System Shock (sci-fi/horror)
Planescape:Torment (haven't played it yet, but it doesn't sound much like a Tolkein ripoff.)

Another borderline case is Albion, a curious mix of Japanese and Western RPG styles...where you, a space colonist, have crashed your scout ship upon an alien world. I never finished it, but I do recommend it.

(oh, not to mention that I could easily argue that many J-RPGs have a similar premise to eachother much like the Tolkein-clones of PC gaming. :p)

EDIT: Here's another reason why I prefer story over realism. You need a motivation (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/10/07) to play the game. ;)

Yeah, but most good PC RPGs you can't play like that anyway (and those that do are foolish). The linearity of most J-RPGs, on the other hand...

Western RPgs.
I wouldnt even call the japenese stuff RPGs.

as much as i like the playablitly and replayability of western rpgs , i seem to like japanese rpgs alot. then again, i could just be playing far too many h-games, aoh well, still good :D

Why can't we have both types of Rocket Propelled Grenades?

because one of them has far too little explosive power :p

Well you all have your points about western and japanese rpgs. But you miss out on one point, oblivion itself isn't that huge of an rpg when compared to say daggerfall the second Elder Scrolls, now on the other hand fallout 1 or 2 were huge games with many side quests.

Japanese RPGS can be just as big if you look at the tales series or even chrono trigger and chrono cross with just as much to do. To say these games are smaller I would have to completely disagree I've played many a japanese RPG I've logged in more game time on then I have a western. Except for fallout 1 and 2, sadly I never got my hands on a copy of wasteland.

In conclusion I prefer Japanese RPGS for their more intricate characters and storylines, you prefer your american styles but they truely never go as far in most cases as the death of the main character reviving because you played the minigame in the beggining to get a clone. I only remember one traumatic moment in a western rpg that truely effected me and that would be in Fallout 1 when I went to fight the brain thing and I had to kill dogmeat to sneak up there. That made me sad while in a japanese rpg I achieve so many more feelings, from having to kill maybel in Tales of Symphonia, to gathering all of the spirits in final fantasy 6 a.k.a. 3 to all of you who go by the american numbers

because one of them has far too little explosive power :p
You can have the Jap one then.

I prefer the open character design of western RPGs.

Suddenly seemingly out of nowhere, a huge fleet of alien battleships arrives at the orbit of our beloved blue planet. Our new alien overlords demand that we either outlaw western-style roleplaying games or Japanese roleplaying games. They threaten to completely wipe out the city of Bielefeld if we do not comply with their demands. So, which of the two RPG styles would you like to keep?
You know what I do? I use my Level 25 Light Mage abilities to cast a protective barrier around the city of Biefield, and then roll to see if I can cast an adequately strong attack which would wipe out the alien fleet in one shot. :D

Japanese RPGs all the way. More involving storyline, many sidequests, and it's only linear until that part in the game where you have to go re-recruit all your characters/get your ultimate weapons/beat all the sidequests for the kickass items.

On top of the more emotionally-charging storylines and characters, Japanese RPGs have prettier graphics. If I'm gonna be staring at a screen for 6 hours straight, I want it to look PRETTY, not all dark and dreary and ugly.

Well I guess the thread is self-explanatory. *)
At least slight preference for Japanese/Asian Rpgs.

...They threaten to completely wipe out the city of Bielefeld if we do not comply with their demands.
Oh no, not the "Bielefeld" myth again :rolleyes:
Anyone knows it's just a fairy tale to scare little kids, nothing more.

Japanese RPGs all the way. More involving storyline, many sidequests, and it's only linear until that part in the game where you have to go re-recruit all your characters/get your ultimate weapons/beat all the sidequests for the kickass items.

I'd dispute that. Most J-RPGs that i've played do not have anywhere near the plot involvement or sidequests of a decent Western RPG.

On top of the more emotionally-charging storylines and characters, Japanese RPGs have prettier graphics. If I'm gonna be staring at a screen for 6 hours straight, I want it to look PRETTY, not all dark and dreary and ugly.

Huh? (http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6831/oblivion44nh.jpg) :p

That's a silly argument anyway. Graphics do not a good game make.

Huh? (http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6831/oblivion44nh.jpg) :p

That's a silly argument anyway. Graphics do not a good game make.
Never said graphics were the whole story. I just don't want to be staring at an ugly screen with ugly characters. Also, I don't like overly-realistic-looking games. I get enough pretty scenery just looking out my windows. :p

I'd dispute that. Most J-RPGs that i've played do not have anywhere near the plot involvement or sidequests of a decent Western RPG.


Huh? (http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6831/oblivion44nh.jpg) :p

That's a silly argument anyway. Graphics do not a good game make.

is that a pc or 360 shot? cause if its pc, i envy someone. badly.

(i mean have you seen the recommended hardware? that's just insane. those are brand new computer specs!!)

Never said graphics were the whole story. I just don't want to be staring at an ugly screen with ugly characters. Also, I don't like overly-realistic-looking games. I get enough pretty scenery just looking out my windows. :p
wha. . . . ? you dont want an ugly screen but dont want too realistic?

picky picky. :p

wha. . . . ? you dont want an ugly screen but dont want too realistic?

picky picky. :p
Too realistic tends to mean too slow to run decently, and scenery is the backdrop. The characters are what should be using the processing power, not the trees that nobody even pays attention to.

is that a pc or 360 shot? cause if its pc, i envy someone. badly.

(i mean have you seen the recommended hardware? that's just insane. those are brand new computer specs!!)

PC. :D

My computer meets the recommended specs, except for the graphics card, which is one step below it. And it still plays at a nice speed (~35 FPS, sometimes slowing down a bit in certain situations, like when there are 4 enemies on screen, but that's rare).

PC. :D

My computer meets the recommended specs, except for the graphics card, which is one step below it. And it still plays at a nice speed (~35 FPS, sometimes slowing down a bit in certain situations, like when there are 4 enemies on screen, but that's rare).

*is jealous*

i have it for 360, and it looks mighty nice. although the constant loading thing, that can be nagging.

what card do you have?

Too realistic tends to mean too slow to run decently, and scenery is the backdrop. The characters are what should be using the processing power, not the trees that nobody even pays attention to.

You can have both. (http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2770/oblivion30cj.jpg) :p

And as I said, runs fine on my machine...

*is jealous*

i have it for 360, and it looks mighty nice. although the constant loading thing, that can be nagging.

what card do you have?

Geforce G6600GT. The recommended is a G6800. I pieced the machine together for about $900 in Australian money nine months or so ago.

Plus, the PC doesn't have the constant loading thing so much. It pauses for a fraction of a second every now and then, but eh, that's nothing.

You can have both. (http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2770/oblivion30cj.jpg) :p

And as I said, runs fine on my machine...
I can't afford a top-of-the-line computer. I run on a laptop, a crappy one. And that character is hardly 'pretty'.

Besides, I don't like MMORPGs. Too many n00bs. "This plz" "Taht plz" "give plz". It wears on my nerves. I don't have much patience for 'people' like that.

You're not going to convince me to change my mind. I don't like American/Western RPGs. I never will, unless they make one that looks pretty and has character development. End of story.

I can't afford a top-of-the-line computer. I run on a laptop, a crappy one. And that character is hardly 'pretty'.

Besides, I don't like MMORPGs. Too many n00bs. "This plz" "Taht plz" "give plz". It wears on my nerves. I don't have much patience for 'people' like that.

You're not going to convince me to change my mind. I don't like American/Western RPGs. I never will, unless they make one that looks pretty and has character development. End of story.

oblivion is not an mmorgp. to any extent. its all singleplayer! :p

you just said you dont like pretty, then you want pretty. i give up.

and about your computer/laptop: why do people like alienware and dell make gaming laptops? most new games state on the bottom that they will not run on laptop versions of video cards (case in point: Battlefield 2 and Silent Hunter III)

I can't afford a top-of-the-line computer. I run on a laptop, a crappy one. And that character is hardly 'pretty'.

OK, whatever...

Besides, I don't like MMORPGs. Too many n00bs. "This plz" "Taht plz" "give plz". It wears on my nerves. I don't have much patience for 'people' like that.

It's not an MMORPG. I hate them too.

You're not going to convince me to change my mind. I don't like American/Western RPGs. I never will, unless they make one that looks pretty and has character development. End of story.

Meh. It just so happens that i'm willing to sacrifice prettyness for gameplay. If you want strong character development, there are plenty of options, though.

oblivion is not an mmorgp. to any extent. its all singleplayer! :p

you just said you dont like pretty, then you want pretty. i give up.

and about your computer/laptop: why do people like alienware and dell make gaming laptops? most new games state on the bottom that they will not run on laptop versions of video cards (case in point: Battlefield 2 and Silent Hunter III)
I don't have a gaming laptop. I have a Dell Inspiron 2200. It's not even MADE anymore. Having a hell of a time finding a screen for it, as mine's cracked.

And fine, Oblivion isn't an MMORPG. It's still not pretty in the way I like games to be pretty. Again, scenery is the backdrop. It should NOT be the main good-looking thing. I've looked at other screenshots of Oblivion, and frankly, the characters are rather ugly on the whole. The characters, dialogue, etc. should be what take up the processing power, not the fragging scenery.

I like both, though I really do like the storylines and characters of Japanese RPG's. Sure, they're not as customisable as Western counterparts, but that really doesn't matter when you're totally engrossed in a deep story.

Linear, schminear. I'll take a really good story over an open system any day.

Western all the way. A big problem with "in-depth storylines" is that they're very predictable. The characters seem to be designed to be either cut-and-paste badass, funny-haired cardboard or "hey, look, tits!". I'm much more in tune with creating my own character instead of using the one that's laid out for me, so games like KotOR, and even Dugeon Siege are more appealing to me than Final Fantasy.

On top of the more emotionally-charging storylines and characters, Japanese RPGs have prettier graphics. If I'm gonna be staring at a screen for 6 hours straight, I want it to look PRETTY, not all dark and dreary and ugly.

What, this ain't pretty to you?

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/502/screenshot92sp.png

And that's not even one of my good shots.

What, this ain't pretty to you?

*points up*

Already tried that, didn't work. :(

Western all the way. A big problem with "in-depth storylines" is that they're very predictable. The characters seem to be designed to be either cut-and-paste badass, funny-haired cardboard or "hey, look, tits!". I'm much more in tune with creating my own character instead of using the one that's laid out for me, so games like KotOR, and even Dugeon Siege are more appealing to me than Final Fantasy.

The problem with Final Fantasy is that they keep using the same cliched characters, all while catering to the 13 year old "Wow, he's got a sword!" crowd. One of the biggest problems while conceiving a character is flawing them rather than making them perfect. But Square flaws their characters the same way IN EVERY GAME.

*points up*

Already tried that, didn't work. :(

Who the fuck couldn't find Oblivion one of the best looking games ever?

Geforce G6600GT. The recommended is a G6800. I pieced the machine together for about $900 in Australian money nine months or so ago.

Plus, the PC doesn't have the constant loading thing so much. It pauses for a fraction of a second every now and then, but eh, that's nothing.

Yeah, I think Bethesda exaggerated the requiredmentsa bit. I have 3.2GHz, 1GB RAM and a 6600GT. With distances off, it plays flawlessly. With distances on, I get the slightest slowdown occasionally.

The problem with Final Fantasy is that they keep using the same cliched characters, all while catering to the 13 year old "Wow, he's got a sword!" crowd. One of the biggest problems while conceiving a character is flawing them rather than making them perfect. But Square flaws their characters the same way IN EVERY GAME.

Yeah, there's always the stoic warrior guy, ditzy girl, nerdy girl, tough girl, annoyingly "cute" child, misunderstood freak, noble rogue, etc.

*points up*

Already tried that, didn't work. :(

Damn, your screen is pimp.

Yeah, I think Bethesda exaggerated the requiredmentsa bit. I have 3.2GHz, 1GB RAM and a 6600GT. With distances off, it plays flawlessly. With distances on, I get the slightest slowdown occasionally.

Yep. I'm pretty happy considering I was expecting having to run at medium detail, but I can turn most things up with no problems.

Yeah, there's always the stoic warrior guy, ditzy girl, nerdy girl, tough girl, annoyingly "cute" child, misunderstood freak, noble rogue, etc.

Mmm hmm. And FF characters are getting younger. What the hell's with that?

Mmm hmm. And FF characters are getting younger. What the hell's with that?

Oh, they all have to be in their mid-to-late teenage years (with one or two of the Annoyingly "Cute" Child™ characters to tag along), to cater to their audience. They might have the Middle-Aged Noble Knight™ or Wise But Stern Elderly Sage™ give you a helping hand for a while, but generally it's got to be a group of meddling teenagers to save the world from the greatest menace the world has ever faced (again).

Oh, and sometimes, the main character (Usually, but not always the Stoic Warrior™ type) falls in love with the Ditzy Girl™, who usually happens to love someone else. Occasionally another party member. Probably the Roguish But Charming Thief™.

Who the fuck couldn't find Oblivion one of the best looking games ever?
It looks okay if you like ugly characters and overdone scenery. I don't think scenery should take up so much of A) the game's database, and B) the processing power of your computer. Reduce the quality of the scenery, and not only does nobody lose, but they can lower the minimum specs of the game. Probably why they crap it all up with scenery.

It looks okay if you like ugly characters and overdone scenery. I don't think scenery should take up so much of A) the game's database, and B) the processing power of your computer. Reduce the quality of the scenery, and not only does nobody lose, but they can lower the minimum specs of the game. Probably why they crap it all up with scenery.

I don't think the characters look ugly. They look great. Very medieval.

And there's no reason to lower specs. When you think about it, this has been coming for a while.

Oh, they all have to be in their mid-to-late teenage years (with one or two of the Annoyingly "Cute" Child™ characters to tag along), to cater to their audience. They might have the Middle-Aged Noble Knight™ or Wise But Stern Elderly Sage™ give you a helping hand for a while, but generally it's got to be a group of meddling teenagers to save the world from the greatest menace the world has ever faced (again).

Oh, and sometimes, the main character falls in love with the Ditzy Girl™, who usually happens to love someone else. Occasionally another party member. Probably the Roguish Thief™.

Yeah. See, in my game idea, my oldest character is 272 (not human, though).

I don't think the characters look ugly. They look great. Very medieval.

And there's no reason to lower specs. When you think about it, this has been coming for a while.
Medieval, fine. But they're not pretty, and.. I've been THROUGH this. Leave me alone already. You have a perfect description of what I want in a game, I don't like American RPGs, so go away. Your definition of pretty is VERY different from mine. I want games like Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, and so on. I don't want Oblivion, Fallout, Halo, any of those games. Leave me and my choice of games alone! :p

All your RPGs are belong to me. Don't make me set us up the bomb.

Medieval, fine. But they're not pretty, and.. I've been THROUGH this. Leave me alone already. You have a perfect description of what I want in a game, I don't like American RPGs, so go away. Your definition of pretty is VERY different from mine. I want games like Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, and so on. I don't want Oblivion, Fallout, Halo, any of those games. Leave me and my choice of games alone! :p

Fine, but I'm not the one who expects medieval people to look like runway models.

That's another problem with FF games, and Japanese RPGs in general. Everyone looks like a runway model, unless they're specifically design not to be. Although I shouldn't critisize; if I ever make my game, I'll probably fall for that one too.

Fine, but I'm not the one who expects medieval people to look like runway models.

That's another problem with FF games, and Japanese RPGs in general. Everyone looks like a runway model, unless they're specifically design not to be. Although I shouldn't critisize; if I ever make my game, I'll probably fall for that one too.
I never said runway models were my idea of pretty. Runway models tend to be ugly. I said pretty characters, as in nice, beautiful, or cute. Runway models? *Shudder* I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole. The pole's thicker'n they are, it'd break 'em.

Oh, they all have to be in their mid-to-late teenage years (with one or two of the Annoyingly "Cute" Child™ characters to tag along), to cater to their audience. They might have the Middle-Aged Noble Knight™ or Wise But Stern Elderly Sage™ give you a helping hand for a while, but generally it's got to be a group of meddling teenagers to save the world from the greatest menace the world has ever faced (again).

Oh, and sometimes, the main character (Usually, but not always the Stoic Warrior™ type) falls in love with the Ditzy Girl™, who usually happens to love someone else. Occasionally another party member. Probably the Roguish But Charming Thief™.

When I become an evil overlord, I swear to all that is dark and unholy, I'll kill all those wise-cracking thieves, thus crippling the support for the hero, making him weaker with every day in my dark and downcast world.

More to the point, I do not believe Final Fantasy games can be used as the standerd anymore. Why you might ask, well, it's quite simple. Final Fantasy games suck.

The reasons: No only do you have cookie cutter characters, but the charcters are made to appeal to anyone and everyone. You know how many times I've heard kids on the internet compareing them selves to Auron? Far too many. furthering the point, the male lead of the game, all the time a character who doesn't understand the world and needs a group of people to help him attain his highest level of power, is too stupid it's sickening. Look, I hate Final Fantasy Ten, I honestly do, but it's more then that, I hated Eight because the male lead was a fuck head, Nine because the male lead needed to be taken behind the chemical sheds and given a round to the head. I lothe seven, because it killed Single Player RPGs. Nothing new has been done in the last nine years. Sure we've got games like Knights of the Old Republic that have a few neat tricks, but all and all the Japanese RPGs havn't done anything new. Kill the main character, kill everyone, shit man, why can't a group fail to save the world once and a while. I mean, how else can you explain all the different worlds and the like? They keep blowing them selves up, which is why they are always in a medieval type battle setting.

If it was up to me, I'd make a game where people could connect with the characters, and then kill them. So you could take a kid who watched the heros fall and want revenge, so that the character you make might have a meaning to you. I don't like a preset ending.

Though a new rpg I like is Kingdom Hearts II, though, it's more of an action game then an rpg, but hey, I like action games.

When I become an evil overlord, I swear to all that is dark and unholy, I'll kill all those wise-cracking thieves, thus crippling the support for the hero, making him weaker with every day in my dark and downcast world.

More to the point, I do not believe Final Fantasy games can be used as the standerd anymore. Why you might ask, well, it's quite simple. Final Fantasy games suck.

The reasons: No only do you have cookie cutter characters, but the charcters are made to appeal to anyone and everyone. You know how many times I've heard kids on the internet compareing them selves to Auron? Far too many. furthering the point, the male lead of the game, all the time a character who doesn't understand the world and needs a group of people to help him attain his highest level of power, is too stupid it's sickening. Look, I hate Final Fantasy Ten, I honestly do, but it's more then that, I hated Eight because the male lead was a fuck head, Nine because the male lead needed to be taken behind the chemical sheds and given a round to the head. I lothe seven, because it killed Single Player RPGs. Nothing new has been done in the last nine years. Sure we've got games like Knights of the Old Republic that have a few neat tricks, but all and all the Japanese RPGs havn't done anything new. Kill the main character, kill everyone, shit man, why can't a group fail to save the world once and a while. I mean, how else can you explain all the different worlds and the like? They keep blowing them selves up, which is why they are always in a medieval type battle setting.

If it was up to me, I'd make a game where people could connect with the characters, and then kill them. So you could take a kid who watched the heros fall and want revenge, so that the character you make might have a meaning to you. I don't like a preset ending.

Though a new rpg I like is Kingdom Hearts II, though, it's more of an action game then an rpg, but hey, I like action games.

That's my problem with J-RPGs too. I had fun with them back when I had a SNES, really, as much as I loved PC games then, I did enjoy them a lot. Terranigma, Secret of Mana, and Chronotrigger were all great games. The problem is that I haven't really seen anything that deviated much from that basic template, with maybe one or two new innovations in that era that failed to catch on...for example, Star Ocean in some aspects approached the complexity of a PC-RPG, Bahamut Lagoon had an interesting "pet dragon" system similar to Pokemon, and Secret of Mana 2 had class changes...though curiously these three all share in common the fact that they were never (commercially) translated into English. Wonder what else we're missing out on? Admittedly, I don't play console games much anymore, so I might have missed out on some of the decent modern games, but I can't think of anything that has been hyped up (unless i'm hopelessly out of the loop, which is possible). Seems to me that they all follow the same repetitive formula.

And I daresay, I do like your plot idea. The only problem with plots like that is that they quickly become common knowledge and the surprise is ruined. :(

But what about a J-RPG where you can be the bad guy? (If one exists, someone tell me about it, please) That's one of the most fun things about PC-RPGs, IMO. You can usually be an evil bastard if you so choose, it adds to replayability....and often, it's simply great fun. :D