NationStates Jolt Archive


The debate over Rumsfeld among lower officers

Daistallia 2104
23-04-2006, 07:40
From the NYT:

Young Officers Join the Debate Over Rumsfeld
By THOM SHANKER and ERIC SCHMITT
Published: April 23, 2006

WASHINGTON, April 22 — The revolt by retired generals who publicly criticized Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld has opened an extraordinary debate among younger officers, in military academies, in the armed services' staff colleges and even in command posts and mess halls in Iraq.

Junior and midlevel officers are discussing whether the war plans for Iraq reflected unvarnished military advice, whether the retired generals should have spoken out, whether active-duty generals will feel free to state their views in private sessions with the civilian leaders and, most divisive of all, whether Mr. Rumsfeld should resign.

In recent weeks, military correspondents of The Times discussed those issues with dozens of younger officers and cadets in classrooms and with combat units in the field, as well as in informal conversations at the Pentagon and in e-mail exchanges and telephone calls.

To protect their careers, the officers were granted anonymity so they could speak frankly about the debates they have had and have heard. The stances that emerged are anything but uniform, although all seem colored by deep concern over the quality of civil-military relations, and the way ahead in Iraq.

The discussions often flare with anger, particularly among many midlevel officers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and face the prospect of additional tours of duty.

"This is about the moral bankruptcy of general officers who lived through the Vietnam era yet refused to advise our civilian leadership properly," said one Army major in the Special Forces who has served two combat tours. "I can only hope that my generation does better someday."

An Army major who is an intelligence specialist said: "The history I will take away from this is that the current crop of generals failed to stand up and say, 'We cannot do this mission.' They confused the cultural can-do attitude with their responsibilities as leaders to delay the start of the war until we had an adequate force. I think the backlash against the general officers will be seen in the resignation of officers" who might otherwise have stayed in uniform.

One Army colonel enrolled in a Defense Department university said an informal poll among his classmates indicated that about 25 percent believed that Mr. Rumsfeld should resign, and 75 percent believed that he should remain. But of the second group, two-thirds thought he should acknowledge errors that were made and "show that he is not the intolerant and inflexible person some paint him to be," the colonel said.

Many officers who blame Mr. Rumsfeld are not faulting President Bush — in contrast to the situation in the 1960's, when both President Lyndon B. Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert S. McNamara drew criticism over Vietnam from the officer corps. (Mr. McNamara, like Mr. Rumsfeld, was also resented from the outset for his attempts to reshape the military itself.)

But some are furiously criticizing both, along with the military leadership, like the Army major in the Special Forces. "I believe that a large number of officers hate Rumsfeld as much as I do, and would like to see him go," he said.

"The Army, however, went gently into that good night of Iraq without saying a word," he added, summarizing conversations with other officers. "For that reason, most of us know that we have to share the burden of responsibility for this tragedy. And at the end of the day, it wasn't Rumsfeld who sent us to war, it was the president. Officers know better than anyone else that the buck stops at the top. I think we are too deep into this for Rumsfeld's resignation to mean much.

"But this is all academic. Most officers would acknowledge that we cannot leave Iraq, regardless of their thoughts on the invasion. We destroyed the internal security of that state, so now we have to restore it. Otherwise, we will just return later, when it is even more terrible."

The debates are fueled by the desire to mete out blame for the situation in Iraq, a drawn-out war that has taken many military lives and has no clear end in sight. A midgrade officer who has served two tours in Iraq said a number of his cohorts were angered last month when Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that "tactical errors, a thousand of them, I am sure," had been made in Iraq.

"We have not lost a single tactical engagement on the ground in Iraq," the officer said, noting that the definition of tactical missions is specific movements against an enemy target. "The mistakes have all been at the strategic and political levels."

Many officers said a crisis of leadership extended to serious questions about top generals' commitment to sustain a seasoned officer corps that was being deployed on repeated tours to the long-term counterinsurgency operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, while the rest of the government did not appear to be on the same wartime footing
(Article continues)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/23/washington/23military.html?ex=1146456000&en=573c8cfb699b5a31&ei=5065&partner=MYWAY
Daistallia 2104
24-04-2006, 04:19
Nobody has any comments on this?
Gymoor II The Return
24-04-2006, 04:43
Nobody has any comments on this?

They're too busy trying to figure out how to paint active personnel as unAmerican..
Straughn
24-04-2006, 23:29
I feel there were a couple of other points worth bolding in that article ...

To protect their careers, the officers were granted anonymity so they could speak frankly about the debates they have had and have heard. The stances that emerged are anything but uniform, although all seem colored by deep concern over the quality of civil-military relations, and the way ahead in Iraq.

and

"This is about the moral bankruptcy of general officers who lived through the Vietnam era yet refused to advise our civilian leadership properly," said one Army major in the Special Forces who has served two combat tours. "I can only hope that my generation does better someday."


On a poll thread i had recently, the issue of fear for one's career was also a big one, and this one adds some summation to it.
Corneliu
24-04-2006, 23:51
They're too busy trying to figure out how to paint active personnel as unAmerican..

Actually, under the UCMJ, the officers cannot criticize Rumsfield. They would be court martialed. Since I do not see any criticism in the article, there is nothing to report.
Straughn
25-04-2006, 00:18
Actually, under the UCMJ, the officers cannot criticize Rumsfield. They would be court martialed. Since I do not see any criticism in the article, there is nothing to report.
Corny, see my post, just above the one i'm quoting you with.
Per the bolded parts.
Dobbsworld
25-04-2006, 00:34
All forms of hierarchical structure oppress the human as individual, and humanity as community.

That's all I got.
Desperate Measures
25-04-2006, 01:09
"This, too, shall pass," Rumsfelds quoted response.

I guess we'll see how right he is given the media's ability to drop a story once an actress reveals a bump.
The Cat-Tribe
25-04-2006, 01:16
Actually, under the UCMJ, the officers cannot criticize Rumsfield. They would be court martialed. Since I do not see any criticism in the article, there is nothing to report.

LOL.

Watch Corny impersonate the proverbial ostrich.

(for the picky, I know that ostriches don't really bury their heads in the sand. That is why I said "proverbial.")
Daistallia 2104
25-04-2006, 01:56
Actually, under the UCMJ, the officers cannot criticize Rumsfield. They would be court martialed.

You've said that several times over the course of this debate. I now am asking for a citation. Can you please post a link to the article of the UCMJ that covers disloyal statements?

Since I do not see any criticism in the article, there is nothing to report.

One Army colonel enrolled in a Defense Department university said an informal poll among his classmates indicated that about 25 percent believed that Mr. Rumsfeld should resign, and 75 percent believed that he should remain. But of the second group, two-thirds thought he should acknowledge errors that were made and "show that he is not the intolerant and inflexible person some paint him to be," the colonel said.


So 75% of officers saying Rumsfeld made errors, 1/3 of whom belive the errors to be so serious that he should resign over them, is what exactly? Do you consider that to somehow be praise?
Corneliu
25-04-2006, 03:30
You've said that several times over the course of this debate. I now am asking for a citation. Can you please post a link to the article of the UCMJ that covers disloyal statements?






So 75% of officers saying Rumsfeld made errors, 1/3 of whom belive the errors to be so serious that he should resign over them, is what exactly? Do you consider that to somehow be praise?

Saying someone made errors is not criticising. Everyone makes errors and mistakes. Saying someone made a mistake or an error is not violating the UCMJ. If they criticize Rumsfield however, that's a different issue.
Daistallia 2104
25-04-2006, 03:32
Saying someone made errors is not criticising. Everyone makes errors and mistakes. Saying someone made a mistake or an error is not violating the UCMJ. If they criticize Rumsfield however, that's a different issue.

Again, if it's not criticism, what is it?
And how about your citation for the UCMJ?
Red Tide2
25-04-2006, 03:34
YEAH! After all, constructive critiscism and critiscism are two different things! :p

On a more serious note... are they?
Ravenshrike
25-04-2006, 03:38
They're too busy trying to figure out how to paint active personnel as unAmerican..
Or it could be the fact that he has offered to resign. Twice.
Corneliu
25-04-2006, 03:47
Again, if it's not criticism, what is it?
And how about your citation for the UCMJ?

Article 88—Contempt toward officials
Text.

“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) That the accused was a commissioned officer of the United States armed forces;

(2) That the accused used certain words against an official or legislature named in the article;

(3) That by an act of the accused these words came to the knowledge of a person other than the accused; and

(4) That the words used were contemptuous, either in themselves or by virtue of the circumstances under which they were used.

Note: If the words were against a Governor or legislature, add the following element
(5) That the accused was then present in the State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession of the Governor or legislature concerned.

Explanation.

The official or legislature against whom the words are used must be occupying one of the offices or be one of the legislatures named in Article 88 at the time of the offense. Neither “Congress” nor “legislature” includes its members individually. “Governor” does not include “lieutenant governor.” It is immaterial whether the words are used against the official in an official or private capacity. If not personally contemptuous, ad-verse criticism of one of the officials or legislatures named in the article in the course of a political discussion, even though emphatically expressed, may not be charged as a violation of the article.

Similarly, expressions of opinion made in a purely private conversation should not rdinarily be charged. Giving broad circulation to a written publication containing contemptuous words of the kind made punishable by this article, or the utterance of contemptuous words of this kind in the presence of military subordinates, aggravates the offense. The truth or falsity of the statements is immaterial.

Lesser included offense.

Article 80—attempts

Maximum punishment.

Dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.

Note: While only commissioned officers can be charged under this article, DOD Directive 1344.10- POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES ON ACTIVE DUTY, extend these same requirements to all individuals on active duty. Enlisted members and warrant officers who violate these provisions can be charged under Article 92, of the UCMJ, Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation.

Next Article> Article 89-Disrespect toward a superior commissioned officer >

Above Information from Manual for Court Martial, 2002, Chapter 4, Paragraph 12

I hope this helps you understand the differnece between a private statement made in a private conversation compared to a public statement.
Daistallia 2104
25-04-2006, 04:20
Article 88—Contempt toward officials
Text.

“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”


Good. You actually had it right, more or less. I was thinking of article 134 and “disloyal statements”, which is what has historically been used to quash critics.

However, you have yet to address how you can consider the 75% of officers saying Rumsfeld made errors, 1/3 of whom belive the errors to be so serious that he should resign over them not to be criticism...
Corneliu
25-04-2006, 04:27
Good. You actually had it right, more or less. I was thinking of article 134 and “disloyal statements”, which is what has historically been used to quash critics.

However, you have yet to address how you can consider the 75% of officers saying Rumsfeld made errors, 1/3 of whom belive the errors to be so serious that he should resign over them not to be criticism...

Article 134—Disloyal statements
Text.

See Paragraph 60.

Elements.

(1) That the accused made a certain statement;

(2) That the statement was communicated to another person;

(3) That the statement was disloyal to the United States;

(4) That the statement was made with the intent to promote disloyalty or disaffection toward the United States by any member of the armed forces or to interfere with or impair the loyalty to the United States or good order and discipline of any member of the armed forces; and

(5) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.

Certain disloyal statements by military personnel may not constitute an offense under 18 U.S.C. §§ 2385, 2387, and 2388, but may, under the circumstances, be punishable under this article. Examples include praising the enemy, attacking the war aims of the United States, or denouncing our form of government with the intent to promote disloyalty or disaffection among members of the armed services. A declaration of personal belief can amount to a disloyal statement if it disavows allegiance owed to the United States by the declarant. The disloyalty involved for this offense must be to the United States as a political entity and not merely to a department or other agency that is a part of its administration.
Lesser included offense.

Article 80—attempts

Maximum punishment.

Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

Next Article> Article 134-(Disorderly conduct, drunkenness) >

Above Information from Manual for Court Martial, 2002, Chapter 4, Paragraph 72

Disloyal statement article really does not fit with what is being said. Unless they are going with sections 3 or 4 and that would be really stretching it.
Daistallia 2104
25-04-2006, 04:44
Disloyal statement article really does not fit with what is being said. Unless they are going with sections 3 or 4 and that would be really stretching it.

Art. 134, as I said has been the one that's historically been used to quash critics - ranging from General Billy Mitchel to Colonel David Hackworth to SPC Leonard Clark.

So, are you going to address the question of what these remarks are, if not criticism of Rumsfeld? Or are you just going to default lose this one as well?
Corneliu
25-04-2006, 14:28
Art. 134, as I said has been the one that's historically been used to quash critics - ranging from General Billy Mitchel to Colonel David Hackworth to SPC Leonard Clark.

So, are you going to address the question of what these remarks are, if not criticism of Rumsfeld? Or are you just going to default lose this one as well?

If these talks were done in private, no crime has been committed. I already stated that.
BogMarsh
25-04-2006, 15:02
If these talks were done in private, no crime has been committed. I already stated that.


Are you sure they ain't traitors for not referring to Rummy as G'd?
Corneliu
25-04-2006, 15:03
Are you sure they ain't traitors for not referring to Rummy as G'd?

:rolleyes:
BogMarsh
25-04-2006, 15:09
:rolleyes:

And on the other hand, I'm beginning to wonder if any senior official * cough * Dubya *cough * who allows that clown to stay in action ought to receive the Admiral Byng treatment. Not exerting his utmost effort and all that...
Valdania
25-04-2006, 15:09
But what would Jesus do?
Daistallia 2104
25-04-2006, 15:24
If these talks were done in private, no crime has been committed. I already stated that.

So do you accept that 75% of the officer corps has serious problems with Rumsfeld, including a quarter of the total who want him gone? And it's OK that they are saying so anonymously?
Corneliu
25-04-2006, 15:32
So do you accept that 75% of the officer corps has serious problems with Rumsfeld, including a quarter of the total who want him gone? And it's OK that they are saying so anonymously?

Well after the whole base closing thing, everyone knows that Rumsfield had problems.