NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright, so here's a thought: There is a widespread belief in America and Europe that all cultures are basically equally valid, that everyone has a right to their own cultural norms, even if they conflict with those of society at large. Of course, this ties in with Post-Modern thought, and I would like to know what are your thoughts on this issue. Basically, are there superior and inferior cultures?

There are cultures incompatible with others, that's for one.

For example, it's not like there can be widespread sacrifices anymore.
It's not like we can randomly run around accusing people of being witches and burning them.

There are superior and inferior moral systems, and there are more and less honest cultures.

I will leave it at that.

There are cultures incompatible with others, that's for one.

For example, it's not like there can be widespread sacrifices anymore.
It's not like we can randomly run around accusing people of being witches and burning them.


cultures can become inferior, because our thinking now has outgrown them - ie. witchburning and sacrificing

i might consider a culture to be inferior if i wasn't part of the culture, or if that culture was a complete opposite of mine, in respect to beliefs, morals, and whatnot. i guess it would come from misunderstanding

Some cultures are most certainly "supperior" to others. But utopia doesn't exist. No culture or society is perfect, someone can always find flaws where ever they look.

There are cultures incompatible with others, that's for one.

For example, it's not like there can be widespread sacrifices anymore.
It's not like we can randomly run around accusing people of being witches and burning them.
I concur. However, there are cultures in the Middle East who do similarly barbaric things. Take, for example, the many reported deaths of young girls in these nations: Young girls, having been kept at home nearly their entire lives, suddenly become pregnant. They could not have been impregnated by anyone other than a family member, as no other males are allowed to be in contact with them. Most of these young girls (we're talking 13-16) then end up committing suicide, or drowning in the bathtub, etc. Or what of the many women killed on the first night of their marriage, when their new husband discovers that they are not virgins? I'm not making this up, it truly happens.

Does this just become another example of cultural incompatibility, when they contact Western cultures, or is their culture inferior because it turns a blind eye?

cultures can become inferior, because our thinking now has outgrown them - ie. witchburning and sacrificing

i might consider a culture to be inferior if i wasn't part of the culture, or if that culture was a complete opposite of mine, in respect to beliefs, morals, and whatnot. i guess it would come from misunderstanding

But would that really be misunderstanding? Are you certain of that? Just because you are not a part of a culture does not necessarily mean that you are in no position to judge. If you can prove a claim to moral authority then wouldn't you have the right to issue declarations on the validity of a culture, despite not being a member of that culture?

I concur. However, there are cultures in the Middle East who do similarly barbaric things. Take, for example, the many reported deaths of young girls in these nations: Young girls, having been kept at home nearly their entire lives, suddenly become pregnant. They could not have been impregnated by anyone other than a family member, as no other males are allowed to be in contact with them. Most of these young girls (we're talking 13-16) then end up committing suicide, or drowning in the bathtub, etc. Or what of the many women killed on the first night of their marriage, when their new husband discovers that they are not virgins? I'm not making this up, it truly happens.

Does this just become another example of cultural incompatibility, when they contact Western cultures, or is their culture inferior because it turns a blind eye?

It's like American hicks, only with more death.

Some cultures are most certainly "supperior" to others. But utopia doesn't exist. No culture or society is perfect, someone can always find flaws where ever they look.

I agree, no society is perfect, you can find flaws everywhere. But are some cultures inherently flawed?

It's like American hicks, only with more death.

Really, how so are these situations similar to that of American Hicks, besides the body count? How do you define American hicks, by the way?

But would that really be misunderstanding? Are you certain of that? Just because you are not a part of a culture does not necessarily mean that you are in no position to judge. If you can prove a claim to moral authority then wouldn't you have the right to issue declarations on the validity of a culture, despite not being a member of that culture?

people's belief systems are different. that's always going to happen. you and i both believe that it is a crime to kill a woman simply because she is not a virgin, but other cultures think its right. i dont think we should judge other's cultures based on the standards our culture sets.
we can't prove a claim to moral authority, because it just becomes our word against theirs.

Really, how so are these situations similar to that of American Hicks, besides the body count? How do you define American hicks, by the way?

Mostly just being silly, but incest stereotypes, etc.

To actually answer the topic: culture has nothing to do with right or wrong. It has very little to do with how people act. Most people are driven by their individual circumstances, as any culture that contradicts that tends not to last very long. As for different groups having different average rules of right and wrong, as long as my rules of right and wrong allow me to criticize others, I can criticize them, whether their rules are different from mine or not.

people's belief systems are different. that's always going to happen. you and i both believe that it is a crime to kill a woman simply because she is not a virgin, but other cultures think its right. i dont think we should judge other's cultures based on the standards our culture sets.
we can't prove a claim to moral authority, because it just becomes our word against theirs.

Saying this, then you accept the right of those people to murder women who have committed no violence against another individual? Why shouldn't we judge other cultures based on our own standards? What if our standards are higher?

Saying this, then you accept the right of those people to murder women who have committed no violence against another individual? Why shouldn't we judge other cultures based on our own standards? What if our standards are higher?

i definately don't think it is right.
how exactly would you determine that our standards are higher? its a completely different way of thinking.

we shouldnt judge other cultures based on our own standards because we wouldn't them to judge us on their standards. noone wants men from another culture heading towards us with the intention of killing all the women who are not virgins. apparently, they truly beleive that what they are doing is right.

im trying to express this without it sounding like im justifying their actions, because im not. i think that is it wrong, and should be punishable. but who am i to say it's 'wrong'?

under my belief systems, it is wrong to kill, cannibalise, burn for witchcraft, have unusual sex fetishes, for instance. but that doesn't mean that we can say that the people who believe that this is right are doing the wrong thing. they don't think its wrong.

Alright, so here's a thought: There is a widespread belief in America and Europe that all cultures are basically equally valid, that everyone has a right to their own cultural norms, even if they conflict with those of society at large. Of course, this ties in with Post-Modern thought, and I would like to know what are your thoughts on this issue. Basically, are there superior and inferior cultures?
Valid? Odd word to use to describe culture...:confused:

I wasnt aware such a belief was wide spread anywhere. To be honest I have ever met anyone who holds such a view.

As for superior and inferior, I dont see that any culture can be empiracally proven to be absolutely superior or inferior.

but that doesn't mean that we can say that the people who believe that this is right are doing the wrong thing. they don't think its wrong.

Ok, gotcha, but how does them not believing their actions to be wrong make them right? And why can't we say they are doing the wrong thing?

Ok, gotcha, but how does them not believing their actions to be wrong make them right? And why can't we say they are doing the wrong thing?

from our point of view, we can say they're wrong.
but that does not necessarily mean that that culture is less valid, or more inferior than ours.
it just means its different.

of course, this only works from a totally subjective point of view
subjectively, yeah, its wrong-as-hell

the question of 'right' and 'wrong' is kinda tricky. im no expert, just sitting here blabbing on about what i reckon.
another culture believing their actions are 'right' is all relative.

You are correct, it comes down to subjectivity. Then the real issue here must be: is there an absolute moral truth?

You are correct, it comes down to subjectivity. Then the real issue here must be: is there an absolute moral truth?
I expect not.

Alright, so here's a thought: There is a widespread belief in America and Europe that all cultures are basically equally valid, that everyone has a right to their own cultural norms, even if they conflict with those of society at large. Of course, this ties in with Post-Modern thought, and I would like to know what are your thoughts on this issue. Basically, are there superior and inferior cultures?

Superior in what regard? Inferior in what regard?

Problem with this line of thinking (the line that leads to racism or cultural bigotry like White Supremacy) is that it extrapolates from a few (or one, or none) aspects into general, total superiority in all.

It's a simplistic attitude - "them people bad, we people good" - that has no place outside of the minds of simplistic people.

You are correct, it comes down to subjectivity. Then the real issue here must be: is there an absolute moral truth?

erm...no idea. of course, being myself, i would say
YES, for sure! my way is the right way. don't kill, but if someone wants to die, let them. don't steal. don't cheat in exams. look for the best in people. knowledge is power. downloading isn't stealing.

but, probably, there is someone out there who disagrees completely.
doesn't mean their moral code isn't as valid.
probably, no, there is no absolute moral truth.

Superior in what regard? Inferior in what regard?

Problem with this line of thinking (the line that leads to racism or cultural bigotry like White Supremacy) is that it extrapolates from a few (or one, or none) aspects into general, total superiority in all.

It's a simplistic attitude - "them people bad, we people good" - that has no place outside of the minds of simplistic people.

Interesting...yet many very thoughtful individuals have been led to a similar conclusion through the use of logical reasoning, without being either racist or bigoted. I am not toeing the line of racism or bigotry, merely expressing that there are some cultures which, by nature of their devaluation of human life are inherently inferior to others.

And why is there probably no absolute moral truth, things that are inherently right or wrong despite a person's value judgement?

Interesting...yet many very thoughtful individuals have been led to a similar conclusion through the use of logical reasoning, without being either racist or bigoted. I am not toeing the line of racism or bigotry, merely expressing that there are some cultures which, by nature of their devaluation of human life are inherently inferior to others.

And why is there probably no absolute moral truth, things that are inherently right or wrong despite a person's value judgement?What's your criteria for "inferior"?

Interesting...yet many very thoughtful individuals have been led to a similar conclusion through the use of logical reasoning, without being either racist or bigoted.

Yeah, like the fact that there is no black Leonardo daVinci means that white people are smarter, and thus the fact that white people are smarter means they are superior. That is a "thoughtful" line of "logic." Maybe you were referring to something else, so let's see it then.

I am not toeing the line of racism or bigotry, merely expressing that there are some cultures which, by nature of their devaluation of human life are inherently inferior to others.

Inferior in what regard?

You're basing the sum on one of the parts. A very subjective part, too. You're judging based on your assumption that a) devaluation of human life makes for inferiority and b) some cultures (let me guess, Islam?) devalue human life more than others.

Again, it's a simplistic line of thinking.

And why is there probably no absolute moral truth, things that are inherently right or wrong despite a person's value judgement?

Because morality isn't "inherent" in anything.

Interesting...yet many very thoughtful individuals have been led to a similar conclusion through the use of logical reasoning, without being either racist or bigoted. I am not toeing the line of racism or bigotry, merely expressing that there are some cultures which, by nature of their devaluation of human life are inherently inferior to others.

And why is there probably no absolute moral truth, things that are inherently right or wrong despite a person's value judgement?

because people will never agree
everyone will say 'it is wrong to kill'
but others will say 'yes, buuuuuuut, they're a serial killer, they deserve execution'
others will say 'don't steal'
'but im very poor and my family will die if i dont give them food to eat'

do you know a moral truth that cannot be denied?

Yeah, like the fact that there is no black Leonardo daVinci means that white people are smarter, and thus the fact that white people are smarter means they are superior. That is a "thoughtful" line of "logic." Maybe you were referring to something else, so let's see it then.



Inferior in what regard?

You're basing the sum on one of the parts. A very subjective part, too. You're judging based on your assumption that a) devaluation of human life makes for inferiority and b) some cultures (let me guess, Islam?) devalue human life more than others.

Again, it's a simplistic line of thinking.



Because morality isn't "inherent" in anything.
Ok, well, it was fun, but I don't know how the hell you derived racism from the position I was articulating, since I never even implied it. I had a bit of fun, but I have more important things to do, like spend time with my wife. For the record though, devaluing human life does make for inferiority, period. And I'm not necessarily stating that some cultures devalue human life more than others, but they might. I'll just come right out and say it: there are actions that are inherently wrong, no matter what your personal opinion on them.

Ok, well, it was fun, but I don't know how the hell you derived racism from the position I was articulating, since I never even implied it. I had a bit of fun, but I have more important things to do, like spend time with my wife. For the record though, devaluing human life does make for inferiority, period. And I'm not necessarily stating that some cultures devalue human life more than others, but they might. I'll just come right out and say it: there are actions that are inherently wrong, no matter what your personal opinion on them.

You realise, of course, that that IS just your 'opinion'... and thus, worth only the value of slightly warm air, after it leaves your mouth...?

And - I'm sure if you really sat down and thought about it, you could pretty rapidly come up with situations where 'devaluing human life', was actually the best thing for a given society at a given time... under the right circumstances.

For the record though, devaluing human life does make for inferiority, period.

Only from the perspective that "valuing" human life higher than others makes one superior in all respects.

This is a false perspective.

For the record.

I'll just come right out and say it: there are actions that are inherently wrong, no matter what your personal opinion on them.

Nope. That is in fact, just your personal opinion.

I'll just come right out and say it: there are actions that are inherently wrong, no matter what your personal opinion on them.

An 'opinion', comes under 'morals' in terms of subjectivity, i would think. No one opinion is better than another, just different. I would like to hear an example of an inherently wrong action, however.