NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's an interesting article, courtesy of the forums at
www.loosechange911.com


http://www.rense.com/general70/demol.htm

Just read it, though I will expect a lot of "this is old news" and "oh, not this again".

I can understand that some of you wont bother because it's "too long", you want something to flame, or need to have security in your government while you have none in yourself.

Like I'd pay for that!

If you're going to give me conspiracy theories it either has to be free or come in an easy to digest, exciting, and award-winning video game format (a la Deus Ex). Otherwise. NO.

On to the second thingy....

...Which is basically he said, she said.

Go here then: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change&pl=true

Google video, it's the full thing.

Wow, that was exhausting... looking for that on google... omigosh I had to type FOUR WHOLE WORDS.

Here's an interesting article, courtesy of the forums at
www.loosechange911.com


http://www.rense.com/general70/demol.htm

Just read it, though I will expect a lot of "this is old news" and "oh, not this again".

I can understand that some of you wont bother because it's "too long", you want something to flame, or need to have security in your government while you have none in yourself.
Alright. Let's examine this case by case shall we?

...

Or we would if I watched the video. Which I won't do. Suffice it to say that, from what I've read up about these conspiracy theories, most examination fails due to the uncommon nature of the construction of the Twin Towers, and basic common sense. Consider the number of people needed to be involved, and look at something like the Plame Leak. That was what, three people? We're talking thousands here. No way is the government going to be able to keep it a secret.

No, they did fumble with data and screw up, and maybe, just maybe, SOMEONE decided not to pass along data in order to allow it to happen, but no, the government had no involvement with 9/11, and saying that it is possible that a democratically elected official, a more or less normal citizen of this country, would be so evil, so ridiculously cruel, as to actually come up with a plan to murder over 3,000 of this countries people and seriously screw up one of the most valuable pieces to our economy, just to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? Uh-uh. No, I call people who say that is even possible cowards and dispicable dumbfucks.

And before you accuse me of being a Bush-lover, I have never and will never support his administration or policies. He's a bumbling idiot, not an evil dictator.

Go here then: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change&pl=true

Google video, it's the full thing.

Wow, that was exhausting... looking for that on google... omigosh I had to type FOUR WHOLE WORDS.
So much work that you just skiped supporting your arguement in a viewable source the first time

Go here then: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change&pl=true

Google video, it's the full thing.

Wow, that was exhausting... looking for that on google... omigosh I had to type FOUR WHOLE WORDS.

Then I guess that shows how highly I value being able to watch that video, huh?

Anyway. I'll believe this whole thing about 9.11 being a government conspiracy when I see something more concrete than another story that fits the facts. Turn up one person who planted those alleged explosives. One person who ordered those alleged explosives to be placed, to detonate. Until you have a signed and notorized document from someone claiming this, and assuming that their testimony is not uncorraborated, I will not buy it.

That's not to say that that is not what happened. But it's unlikely.

"Would you want to know... would you really want to know, if our government murdered a hundred-thousand of its own people?"

Alright. Let's examine this case by case shall we?

...

Or we would if I watched the video. Which I won't do. Suffice it to say that, from what I've read up about these conspiracy theories, most examination fails due to the uncommon nature of the construction of the Twin Towers, and basic common sense. Consider the number of people needed to be involved, and look at something like the Plame Leak. That was what, three people? We're talking thousands here. No way is the government going to be able to keep it a secret.

No, they did fumble with data and screw up, and maybe, just maybe, SOMEONE decided not to pass along data in order to allow it to happen, but no, the government had no involvement with 9/11, and saying that it is possible that a democratically elected official, a more or less normal citizen of this country, would be so evil, so ridiculously cruel, as to actually come up with a plan to murder over 3,000 of this countries people and seriously screw up one of the most valuable pieces to our economy, just to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? Uh-uh. No, I call people who say that is even possible cowards and dispicable dumbfucks.

And before you accuse me of being a Bush-lover, I have never and will never support his administration or policies. He's a bumbling idiot, not an evil dictator.


I never said or hinted at Bush being an evil dictator. Now, before you put more words in my mouth like any other self-righteous and ignorant politician would, you CANNOT draw a conclusion by what you think happened. If you watch the film, you'll understand, if you don't, I'm not going to wrench you from your 'happy place' in the bliss of stupidity so you can fathom the calibur of this "conspiracy theory".

From the look of it, you don't want to think of the government being "evil enough to kill 3,000 of it's own citizens". Two corrections: one: it was not 3,000, but 2,500; two: THIS HAS BEEN DONE IN HISTORY MANY TIMES.

Explanation:
If a country's government doesn't have the psychological backing for a profitable war they want, no citizens or even militia will rise to support the government's decisions. This war in Iraq was started for money. Frankly, I want people to know the truth about how they've been manipulated, if you don't care or don't want to spend the time to at least view the websites I posted, then please, don't post about it.

Yawn. I've heard of most of these supporting claims to the theory that 9/11 was a plot by our own government, and I've read most of their rebuttals. Regardless of whether you hate Bush, it takes a very special breed of idiot to believe that any leader would engineer such a tragedy on their own people.

It takes a very special kind of idiot to ignore history.

You're the kind of person that lets it repeat itself, taking each devastating event as a "new occurance" and being shocked each time it happens, then having full faith in the very thing that caused the problem.

Like a moth to the flame, you'll keep trusting until it kills you.

Okay, where's that link to the Popular Mechanics article that completely debunked this...

Ah yes, here it is:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Read that. Please. You don't seem like an idiot; you just seem like someone who's been misled by false information. Hopefully, reading this will change your mind.

Does it even matter? Just like the JFK assassination, conspiracy theories will never die, but can never be proven. And does it really matter now? It's been done, the war happened, and there's nothing anyone can do to change that. Conspiracy theories won't bring back the dead, and I truely suspect that most people wouldn't care even if it were proven. Never underestimate the power of apathy. Is this possible? Wouldn't surprise me any. Is it likely to have happened? I wouldn't know. I don't have the technical expertise to know if the stats they were throwing at us were true, but I don't really see this administration as being competent enough to have pulled it off. I'd say this whole thing since 9/11 has shaken my faith in humanity, but I didn't have any to begin with.

Then I guess that shows how highly I value being able to watch that video, huh?

Anyway. I'll believe this whole thing about 9.11 being a government conspiracy when I see something more concrete than another story that fits the facts. Turn up one person who planted those alleged explosives. One person who ordered those alleged explosives to be placed, to detonate. Until you have a signed and notorized document from someone claiming this, and assuming that their testimony is not uncorraborated, I will not buy it.

When you say "assuming that their testimony is not uncorraborated", I assume you mean, "even if you do get someone claiming something that will ruin his life and endanger his family I'm going to ignore him because believing this would mean I'd have to accept how blind I've been all this time, and I'd have to admit you were right".

That's not to say that that is not what happened. But it's unlikely.

"Would you want to know... would you really want to know, if our government murdered a hundred-thousand of its own people?"
YES! Do you know what's really scarry? Not knowing. Not knowing wether your enemies are across the sea, or in power in your own "elected" government. That's scarry. If I knew that would at least mean I knew who my enemies really were. Until I know that for sure, I can't move against them.

Okay, where's that link to the Popular Mechanics article that completely debunked this...

Ah yes, here it is:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Read that. Please. You don't seem like an idiot; you just seem like someone who's been misled by false information. Hopefully, reading this will change your mind.

After reading the article.. I have changed my mind about 9/11. It isn't a conpiracy. >_>
Right... that is but one of the many debunkers out there, each of them have different stories or simply stick by the government's explanation...

They're not explaining anything relevant. It's as empty as any other "debunker". The article is just taking general points and convoluting them... like "The trade center was a controlled demolition" they're trying to prove it wasn't through a series of hogwash and miscellaneous "facts" that they didn't bother showing proof of except a few pictures that prove nothing. "Researchers": they have the "freelance camera man", "a NIST adviser", and "an engineer of an american steel plant" for their "facts". In the part about the steel weakening, I read a lot of "probably" and "most likely", the engineer has no idea what he's talking about. The engineer they interviewed in Loose Change, who had actually run tests on fire-proofed steel, said "It's impossible" (in more than two words) and was fired a few days later. Each engineer or professional they talked to later changed their stories to fit the government's lie, or they were fired. Why would the government be afraid of firing some people if they already murdered nearly 2,500 people for the sake of money?

Why did the government confiscate the tapes of the Pentagon "airplane" from surrounding buildings and hotels? Why would the trade centers collapse from a boeing jet hitting it and falling only a few hours after, when much larger planes have hit other sky scrapers and they still stand today? Where is the jet from Shanksville? Where's the wreckage from the Pentagon or from flight 93? A piece of the cockpit? How did they incinerate upon impact? How was it possible for people to talk on cell phones in 2001 in a commercial airliner at 30,000 feet? Why did it take TWO YEARS to release any tapes or recordings from the jets or the fire-fighters?

Seriously, that article explains nothing that hasn't been explained before, while leaving the most obvious questions unanswered.

Reason the government would murder the twin towers: Money.
-----Larry A. Silverstien, who owned WTC 7, signed a 3.2 billion dollar, 99-year lease for the entire complex 6 weeks before 9/11. Included in that lease is a 3.5 billion dollar insurance policy specifically covering acts of terrorism.
-----3,150 put options are placed on United Airlines (put options are a bet that the stock will fall) more than four times it's average daily amount; this was on spetember 6th.
-----27,294 put options are placed on Boeing on Sept. 7th. More than five times it's average daily amount.
-----4,516 put options are placed on American Airlines on Sept. 8th. Eleven times it's average daily amount.

All throughout history, rulers would have their own men wear enemy uniforms and run through his city streets, killing his citizens. He would then declare war on the enemy country, claiming that they attacked him, and his citizens would believe him entirely and have full backing on his war. This could be for land or because the other country had a large(r) gold cache... in other words: it's all for money and power.

That trailer is garbage.
Yes, Bush knew of the attack before it happened, all of America's intelligence was aware of the phone calls that took place but they did nothing about them.

How can they possibly not understand how a 747 can only cause a small hole? It's because the thing aimed too low to the ground, tore itself up before even hitting the Pentagon, the only thing that came in contact was the nose of the plane.

The fact they don't understand how a plane smashing through the middle of a building could bring it down is laughable.

I also enjoy how they say "There were a number of things wrong with the tape" then cut out before giving any evidence.

Pure crap.

That trailer is garbage.
Yes, Bush knew of the attack before it happened, all of America's intelligence was aware of the phone calls that took place but they did nothing about them.

How can they possibly not understand how a 747 can only cause a small hole? It's because the thing aimed too low to the ground, tore itself up before even hitting the Pentagon, the only thing that came in contact was the nose of the plane.

The fact they don't understand how a plane smashing through the middle of a building could bring it down is laughable.

I also enjoy how they say "There were a number of things wrong with the tape" then cut out before giving any evidence.

Pure crap.

For one thing, that IS NOT the video. You watched a 4 minute trailer advertising the DVD.
Here is the full video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change&pl=true
I posted it before. It is one hour and twenty minutes long.

Notice "TRAILER" in your own post, you have to know that it was not the full video. Or perhaps you are best left in ignorance for the good of the government that betrayed you.

Like any other 10-year-old, you'd rather have the world as "Sunshine and Lollipops" instead of knowing and acting upon the truth.

If an airplane HAD hit the ground, would there not be at least scorch marks or perhaps a LOT of debris? Wouldn't the lawn be a little more than slightly scuffed, or is the astro-turf made of steel? There was not, and it is normal grass. It also was not a 747, but a 757.

If the airplane had hit the ground first, and then skid into the Pentagon, it would have caused much more damage.

Like any other 10-year-old, you'd rather have the world as "Sunshine and Lollipops" instead of knowing and acting upon the truth.

Yes because every documentary made these days is fool-proof, like a sheep you believe anything radical and filled to the brim with controversy. I'm guessing you're one of the fools who boycotted fast food after watching 'Supersize Me'?

-----3,150 put options are placed on United Airlines (put options are a bet that the stock will fall) more than four times it's average daily amount; this was on spetember 6th.
-----27,294 put options are placed on Boeing on Sept. 7th. More than five times it's average daily amount.
-----4,516 put options are placed on American Airlines on Sept. 8th. Eleven times it's average daily amount.

I can actually explain those. Boeing's stock had been in a steady, downtrend since it topped in June of 2001 with an extended break below its 50-day moving average in the period of August-September, and at the start of September 2001 the MACD failed to break positive and turned further negative on heavy volume...people were betting on it to bottom out soon and piled on puts to make money off of the drop.

American Airlines encountered nearly identical MACD negative and 50-day moving average inversion, and had increasingly poor earnings due to difficulties surrounding their merger with TWA and the high wage and capital costs that came from the purchase. Q3 2001 was already looking dire even before 9/11 which motivated the steady breakdown and volatility in the stock's price since the beginning of the year.

I can't find United's stock price because it no longer exists under the same ticker symbol and was reissued following emergence from bankruptcy.

Delta followed a similar pattern but did not experience the same amount of speculation that it would fall further because its stock had successfully tested and resisted its previous low in early September which seemed to suggest that the stock had upward momentum; however, 9/11 occured and the stock plunged towards being delisted in 2005.

Okay, where's that link to the Popular Mechanics article that completely debunked this...

Ah yes, here it is:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Read that. Please. You don't seem like an idiot; you just seem like someone who's been misled by false information. Hopefully, reading this will change your mind.

Yeah, stop following around these "Michael Moore-ish" conspiracy theories and read that..

Yes because every documentary made these days is fool-proof, like a sheep you believe anything radical and filled to the brim with controversy. I'm guessing you're one of the fools who boycotted fast food after watching 'Supersize Me'?

I don't know why anyone would eat that garbage anyway, you're probably one of those over-weight computer nerds who doesn't take a shower unless their mommy says to.

You're one of the fools who doesn't want to learn, and your metaphor makes no sense. You're a sheep who follows a shepherd until you're killed.

I don't know why anyone would eat that garbage anyway, you're probably one of those over-weight computer nerds who doesn't take a shower unless their mommy says to.

You're one of the fools who doesn't want to learn, and your metaphor makes no sense. You're a sheep who follows a shepherd until you're killed.

The fact that you just said mommy indicates your age bracket.
You are just another angsty teenager wanting to believe everything against America and Bush.

LEARN?
You fucking moron, it's just a bunch of nonsense theories, there is no factual evidence.

Yeah, stop following around these "Michael Moore-ish" conspiracy theories and read that..

Sure, you can read a magazine article, but watch a film of facts or read a documentary? Oh, of course not, that would be too difficult.

Go back to reading your Highlights Magazine and don't try to get into grown-up matters, this one is obviously beyond you.

Go back to reading your Highlights Magazine and don't try to get into grown-up matters, this one is obviously beyond you.

Hey, wasn't there a fad with aliens and government cover-ups like Area 51 a few years back? Go chase down that train, the government didn't commit genocide you fool.

The fact that you just said mommy indicates your age bracket.
You are just another angsty teenager wanting to believe everything against America and Bush.

LEARN?
You fucking moron, it's just a bunch of nonsense theories, there is no factual evidence.

Wow, you can use vulgar language, I'm intimidated. I was using "condescending" words not that anyone of your calibur would understand.

You're an "angsty teenager" who doesn't have a vocabulary beyond pop culture and wants to believe anything for America and Bush.

First thing: I voted for Bush, I am a Conservative Republican. I was pro-war until I saw this film and the evidence it was based on. I lost my brother in the "terrorist attack" on the WTC.

Second: If you're so "pro-America" then join the military and ship off to Iraq to die for nothing. You stand on no grounds to criticize anything, just swallow your pride and believe what you want, you're not changing my mind.

So get your head out of your anal cavity.

Hey, wasn't there a fad with aliens and government cover-ups like Area 51 a few years back? Go chase down that train, the government didn't commit genocide you fool.

You still keep posting, about what? You're trying to knock off this "conspiracy" so you can sleep at night? The truth usually hurts more than a lie, and apparently you'd rather live in calumny than face the facts.

You didn't even read this: www.rense.com/general70/demol.htm
Or watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change&pl=true

So you have no reason to impugn anything relating to this.

So get your head out of your anal cavity.

Your wording seems a bit hypocritical.
I feel quite intimidated that you threw pointless words down into your reply to make it seem as if you have the edge of maturity.

And no, I'm not Pro-American nor am I Anti-American.
Why?
Because I'm Canadian.
However, the issue still lies that there are dumbasses like you who need to be put straight and denied access to marjiuana and System of a Down.

Your wording seems a bit hypocritical.
I feel quite intimidated that you threw pointless words down into your reply to make it seem as if you have the edge of maturity.

And no, I'm not Pro-American nor am I Anti-American.
Why?
Because I'm Canadian.
However, the issue still lies that there are dumbasses like you who need to be put straight and denied access to marjiuana and System of a Down.

Your accusations have no founding, as far as I'm concerned, you're trying to blame me for your personal flaws by implying that I do the very things you're addicted to.

Since you're not even in the country in which this happened, your opinion means nothing. Have a good day.

Since you're not even in the country in which this happened, your opinion means nothing. Have a good day.

Well isn't that mature and logical of you.
Grow the fuck up kid, stop believing in anyone who makes a documentary.
Something wrong with this latest generation.

Well isn't that mature and logical of you.
Grow the fuck up kid, stop believing in anyone who makes a documentary.
Something wrong with this latest generation.

You're such an impressive person, you managed to use more defamatory language and devaluing words, does this mean you have an IQ of less than 90?

You're just an angry child who had a bad day at school and wants to vent on a forum with a high response time. The only thing wrong with this generation is simply:.... you.

You're such an impressive person, you managed to use more defamatory language and devaluing words, does this mean you have an IQ of less than 90?

You're just an angry child who had a bad day at school and wants to vent on a forum with a high response time. The only thing wrong with this generation is simply:.... you.

You're avoiding the issue at hand, the fact that this theory you believe in is riddled with holes and bullshit.

Once again I find it hypocritical of you to accuse my intelligence when you accused me of having a bad day at school, on a Saturday.
Now honestly, how could you believe in something as idiotic as this?

Cool it, both of you.

You're avoiding the issue at hand, the fact that this theory you believe in is riddled with holes and bullshit.

Once again I find it hypocritical of you to accuse my intelligence when you accused me of having a bad day at school, on a Saturday.
Now honestly, how could you believe in something as idiotic as this?

First of all: I never implied that today was a school day, which proves my statement of your intellect.

Secondly: You have not watched the "theory full of holes and bullshit" or even bothered to research it, so this proves my second statement of your wanting to flame a forum for no reason.

And finally: I can believe it because this government is not perfect, and other governments (democratic governments, I might add), have done this kind of thing before. They kill their own people to get a psychological edge in the citizens (by blaming it on their "enemy") so they can further their greedy goals.

Plasuma, I was just wondering how you can deny what the eyewitnesses saw when they say they saw the planes impacting the 2 WTC towers and the Pentagon? What about those of us that saw the planes impact the WTC towers on live TV (CNN to be exact).




I'm guessing this thread is going to need an IBTL before too long.

....need to be put straight and denied access to marjiuana and System of a Down.


Nobody should be denied access to marijuana and System of a Down.

How do you account for the plane that was brought down in a field, the one where the passengers rebelled and took the plane down just so it wouldn't hit it's target.

Plasuma, I was just wondering how you can deny what the eyewitnesses saw when they say they saw the planes impacting the 2 WTC towers and the Pentagon? What about those of us that saw the planes impact the WTC towers on live TV (CNN to be exact).




I'm guessing this thread is going to need an IBTL before too long.

The FBI was at the Whitehouse in seconds and told the witnesses what to say. CNN or any other news broadcaster was not there before then.

I saw the planes impact the WTC as well, but the Pentagon was not televized until after the impact too place.

The film can explain things better than I, it's quite long, so if you're short on time you can skip to the time 17:50 in the video to get a full explanation.

How do you account for the plane that was brought down in a field, the one where the passengers rebelled and took the plane down just so it wouldn't hit it's target.
I'm guessing shot down by the airforce will be it.

The FBI was at the Whitehouse in seconds and told the witnesses what to say. CNN or any other news broadcaster was not there before then.

The FBI managed to track down every individual witness, wether be in office, street, car passing by, in their home, everyone?
Well that doesn't sound far-fetched at all.

How do you account for the plane that was brought down in a field, the one where the passengers rebelled and took the plane down just so it wouldn't hit it's target.

If you're talking about the one in Shanksville, flight 93, skip to 55:47 in the film.

The FBI managed to track down every individual witness, wether be in office, street, car passing by, in their home, everyone?
Well that doesn't sound far-fetched at all.

So you're being sarcastic, great.

It might not be possible to track down everyone, but the only witnesses on live TV were near the Pentagon, so the FBI had already told them what to say.

The FBI also confiscated every security tape from the surrounding commercial buildings and never released them to the public.

The witnesses who were not caught by the FBI would be considered by other people: "a sceptical loony who read one too many conspiracy films and documents".

I'm guessing shot down by the airforce will be it.

Actually Flight 93 landed in Cleveland at Hopkins Airport and the passengers were evacuated and "never seen again".
Skip to 58:49 in the film for an explanation.

The FBI was at the Whitehouse in seconds and told the witnesses what to say. CNN or any other news broadcaster was not there before then.

It's doubtful. Did you know the plane was so low, that as it came in towards the Pentagon, it actually clipped some light poles? How do you explain how the light poles got knocked over, if it was a missile that hit the Pentagon?

Oh, I do want to bring up another point I had forgotten about. The plane that hit the pentagon, hit the helipad first, then skipped up and struck the building. That's what there wasn't more damage to the lawn.

It's doubtful. Did you know the plane was so low, that as it came in towards the Pentagon, it actually clipped some light poles? How do you explain how the light poles got knocked over, if it was a missile that hit the Pentagon?

Oh, I do want to bring up another point I had forgotten about. The plane that hit the pentagon, hit the helipad first, then skipped up and struck the building. That's what there wasn't more damage to the lawn.

The skids: go to 29:43 in the film.

The "plane" that hit: go to 15:15 in the film.

Here's the link for the video again: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change&pl=true

Is how I feel about this thread now the same way people who grew up in the Sixites feel about the Kennedy Assassination?

Is how I feel about this thread now the same way people who grew up in the Sixites feel about the Kennedy Assassination?
I actually had what had appeared to be the autopsy photos, and it was fairly clear that what you see in the film as his physical position doesn't particularly jibe with the overall damage of the corpse. You should've seen the head. But it could also be explained by someone shooting his corpse before the autopsy, after yanking him from the 'cade.

oh come on! surley you don't belive that that is just shit made up by some guy with nothing better to do and people lap it up because they have nothing to talk about.How many conspiricy theory's can you think of that have actually been proven with real evidence?:headbang:

oh come on! surley you don't belive that that is just shit made up by some guy with nothing better to do and people lap it up because they have nothing to talk about.How many conspiricy theory's can you think of that have actually been proven with real evidence?:headbang:
Are you replying to me, Desperate Measures, or someone else?

The funny thing about "conspiracies" is that there's a loose end or two with some evidence. That's really all it takes for one to go scooting along. Take religion, for example.

Here's the link for the video again: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change&pl=true


I want that 1hr 21min 50sec of my life back.

I want that 1hr 21min 50sec of my life back.
You should sue for emotional damage!