NationStates Jolt Archive

As said in other thread, I'll summarize the events in Venezuela of April 11, 2002 and the two next days, as it is curcial to understand the situation in Venezuela.

Before the days

Chavez decided to replace the direction of PDVSA, the state owned oil company, with new leaders, because the previous ones were corrupt. As the President, it was his right to do so, since PDVSA was state owned.

The opposition protested against it. During two months, the private TV channels (6 on 7 national channels) broadcasted daily call to kick Chavez out. They showed 12 000 (yes, twelve thousands) of spots against Chavez.

Finally, they called to a general strike and to march on April, 11.

April 11, the demonstrations

Since Venezuela is a democracy, the march and the strike were no problem. The opposition called to a demonstration towards PDVSA buildings, while the chavistas organised a counter-demonstration around Miraflores, the presidential palace.

But then, the opposition leaders called the anti-Chavez to march on Miraflores. Chavez begged them to take another road, whatever they wanted, but to not come close to Miraflores, since it was the pro-Chavez demonstration, making the two opposite, heated, masses to meet each other could quickly lead to violence. The opposition refused any deal with Chavez on this topic.

Chavez then sent the national police to block the streets close to Miraflores, to avoid the two masses to clash, and to prevent any violence. The mayor of Caracas, who was at this time an anti-Chavez, sent his metropolitan police to force the police barrage, and to open the road for the two masses to meet.

Chavez wanted then to call the "Aguila plan", allowing the army to ensure security when the police force isn't enough. For those who may be afraid of such a thing, the "Aguila plan" existed from before Chavez, and was used most of the time were an important guest (like the Pope or a President of another country) was received in Caracas, and never leaded to violence before. It had nothing to do with opening fire on the masses. But the generals refused to obey to Chavez, only a few soldiers did, so finally, the two masses come very close to each other.

Then guns were fired. One by one, chavistas fell dead, shot in the head. The chavistas, frightened, began to run away, while some, who had guns (in Venezuela, owning a gun is usual, like in USA), started to fire back were the attacked came from: an hotel of the opposite side of the street, were snippers were hidden, firing on Chavez supporters.

April 11, what the media said

But the media told a completly different story. They show Chavistas firing from above a bridge. Then, they showed a peaceful demonstration of anti-Chavez going under a bridge. And then they show people falling dead. And they claim chavistas opened fired on a peaceful demonstration.

But if you look clearly at the pictures, it's not the same bridge. No demonstration walked under the bridges where Chavistas were, on April 11. And 7 of the 9 dead people were Chavistas.

Then, the media showed some generals saying that, since Chavez fired on supporters, they withdraw their support to him. Further investigation later on showed that the speach of the generals was recorded several hours BEFORE the guns were fired.

Chavez ordered then a "cadena" (a law in Venezuela allowing the President to speak on all TV channels at once, when he has something important to say - this law existed far before Chavez, and was used by all other presidents too), to try to correct the truth. The private channels illegally refused the "cadena".

April 11, the coup

Following this, the putschists general took control of Fort Tiuna, the military HQ, and of the public TV channel to make Chavez mute, and then ordred Chavez to resign, or else they would bomb Miraflores. Chavez refused to resign, but accepted to surrender himself to the insurgeant. Before surrendering, he gave clear orders to the forces that remained loyal to him to not attack the putschist forces, to avoid a bloodbath at all cost.

Chavez was then made prisonner, and taken to Fort Tiuna, and later to a remote island. All the media then claimed he resigned, while he never did so.

April 12, the dictatorship

Pedro Carmona, the head of Fedecameras, the main buisness-owner organisation of Venezuela, then proclaimed himself President. In one day, he dissolved the Assembly, the Supreme Court, declared void the Constitution validated by 70% of the voices in 1999.

People started to protest against the coup. The metropolitan police opened fired, for the first time since 1989. Previous ministers or member of the parliaments were assaulted, beaten, some were arrested.

USA and Aznar's Spain were the only two countries to recognize Pedro Carmona as President of Venezuela during those two days.

April 13, the revolt

But Hugo Chavez managed to warn his daughter that he didn't resign. She then contacted Fidel Castro, who managed to spread the news from Cuba. Chavistas, knowing their president didn't resign, started to march from all the country towards Caracas.

During April 13, more than two millions of Chavez supporters took the streets of Caracas. The metropolitan police tried to control them, opening fire, killing several chavistas, but they were outnumbered by far. The army, in which most soldiers were still loyal to Chavez, refused to open fire.

Finally, the Chavistas stormed the national TV, and massively surrounded both Miraflores and Fort Tiuna. Then the Palace Guard, which was very close to Chavez, took back the control of Miraflores, and managed to reach Diosdado Cabello, the vice-President who was hiding from the putschists. As Chavez was still captive, Diosdado Cabello became the temporary President. He organised a rescue mission to get Chavez back.

Chavez finally came back, acllamed as a hero by the people.

After the coup

Chavez first words were: "To the who oppose me, I wish I could convince you, but if I don't, fine, oppose me. But please, respect the Consitution."

Pedro Carmona fled to the embassady of Columbia. While Chavez wanted him to be judged who usurping presidency, when Columbia granted its asylum to Padro Carmona, he accepted to let him pass from the embassady to the border.

The TV channels and their owners were left with any trouble.

The generals who rebelled against Chavez were at most fired from the army.

The chavistas who fired back on April 11 were sent to trial.

During the re-call referandum elections on Chavez, President Jimmy Carter, and Colombian Cezar Gaviria who monitored the election and declared it fair, stated they were not allowed into the main building all the ballots were taken to officially counted and official returns announced from.

The next Venezuealan elections where the pro Chavez supporters gained complete control of the seats in thier Parliment. Parliment to use a term.

Had an election turnout of about 30 percent of Venezuelans, abbout 70 percent did not vote.

As for the coup that ousted Chavez for a few days, I am not saying the following is true, but many believe there is enough evidence that it was a self coup, planned by Fidel and Chavez to bring out the oppositon and arrest them, including military officers opposed to Chavez.

Due to Chavez's economic policies driving out all foreign investment capital, his squandering of the oil wealth in propaganda projects that sold cheap oil to poor people in the US, and his extreme redistribution of wealth which drove out all of the country's rich and middle class, Venezuela is broke.

The schools he built, the hospitals, all of his programs are bankrupt. The people of Venezuela are as poor as they were before, but now, since the oil is running out and most developed countries have started to implement alternative energy and efficient technologies, there isn't any hope of reversing the situation.

It doesn't bother me too much that you people will continue to talk shit about Venezuela, and Cuba...and anyone else who doesn't kiss your ass. As long as you don't believe that you have any right to interfere in their affairs...keep your hands in your pockets...as long as you refrain from your historical penchant of invading, or overthrowing governments through various means...then you can just keep on talking.

It doesn't bother me too much that you people will continue to talk shit about Venezuela, and Cuba...and anyone else who doesn't kiss your ass. As long as you don't believe that you have any right to interfere in their affairs...keep your hands in your pockets...as long as you refrain from your historical penchant of invading, or overthrowing governments through various means...then you can just keep on talking.
Thanks. I think I'll take you up on that. Personally I think Chavez is really trying to do what's right for his people, but hes rushing things. You can't turn poverty like that around in a few short years without causing long-term economic problems for your country. If he would take it a little slower and not scare away foreign investors or drive out his own rich people (who will take sizable portions of their wealth with them), Venezuela would be better off in the long run.

Due to Chavez's economic policies driving out all foreign investment capital, his squandering of the oil wealth in propaganda projects that sold cheap oil to poor people in the US, and his extreme redistribution of wealth which drove out all of the country's rich and middle class, Venezuela is broke.

Venezuela reduced its foreign debt by several billions since Chavez is in power. It also reduces its unemployment, controlled the inflation.

The schools he built, the hospitals, all of his programs are bankrupt.

Sure.

The people of Venezuela are as poor as they were before,

Poverty was lowered by between 33% and 50%, since Chavez is in power.

but now, since the oil is running out and most developed countries have started to implement alternative energy and efficient technologies, there isn't any hope of reversing the situation.

Did you ever took the pain of reading what I wrote 5 times in other threads ?

Chavez is, for the first time of Venezuela's history, using oil money to prepate for the post-oil era !

But as usual, you rent against Chavez without even knowing what he does.

Venezuela reduced its foreign debt by several billions since Chavez is in power. It also reduces its unemployment, controlled the inflation.



Sure.



Poverty was lowered by between 33% and 50%, since Chavez is in power.



Did you ever took the pain of reading what I wrote 5 times in other threads ?

Chavez is, for the first time of Venezuela's history, using oil money to prepate for the post-oil era !

But as usual, you rent against Chavez without even knowing what he does.
Considering the record high oil prices it's no surprise that Venezuela is making money right now. What happens when the oil runs out, and nobody wants to invest in Venezuela because the government might nationalize their investment and tell them "tough shit pal, it's our money now"?

During the re-call referandum elections on Chavez, President Jimmy Carter, and Colombian Cezar Gaviria who monitored the election and declared it fair, stated they were not allowed into the main building all the ballots were taken to officially counted and official returns announced from.

Just that claim shows you don't know how the voting process is runned in Venezuela. It's electronic vote with paper trail. People vote on computers, official results are given voting booth by voting booth, and the sum is done. From the booth by booth result, everyone with a little of scripting ability can check the sum.

Then, opposition and international observers chose as much ballots/voting booth as they want, the one they want, and can check the paper trails. They did so on many randomly chosent ballots, and they always found the same result than the official count.

So either Chavez was really, really lucky, because he cheated on many ballots, but none of the ones in which he cheated were checked, by none of the observers !

The next Venezuealan elections where the pro Chavez supporters gained complete control of the seats in thier Parliment. Parliment to use a term.

Had an election turnout of about 30 percent of Venezuelans, abbout 70 percent did not vote.

Sure, the opposition was so sure of being defeated, that they prefered to withdraw from the vote than to take another 60% (or even more) defeat. How brave of them.

As for the coup that ousted Chavez for a few days, I am not saying the following is true, but many believe there is enough evidence that it was a self coup, planned by Fidel and Chavez to bring out the oppositon and arrest them, including military officers opposed to Chavez.

LOL, that's among the most ridiculous rent I ever heard.

Considering the record high oil prices it's no surprise that Venezuela is making money right now. What happens when the oil runs out, and nobody wants to invest in Venezuela because the government might nationalize their investment and tell them "tough shit pal, it's our money now"?

The goal of Venezuela, like any sane country, is to be self-sustaining. Foreign investement is BAD.

It makes your country highly unstable, since they'll withdraw their money as soon as something goes wrong (natural disaster, political crisis, whatever). It's what happened in Argentina, and no sane country would ever want that.

It COSTS you money, because foreign investers expect to take more than what they bring, so in the end you are poorer.

It destroys your national sovereignity, because it gives to investors a veto right on any decision the governement could take: if they don't like it, they withdraw their money.

It forces you to lower taxes, social help, wages, working rights, customer protection laws, envrioenment laws, because of the same veto power.

Definitely, foreign investment is something BAD for a country.

That said, it may be less worse than the alternative in some situations, when you dearly need money and you don't have any other way. But that doesn't apply at all for Venezuela, since they have oil, and they have enough of it to allow themselves to become self-sustended.

It doesn't bother me too much that you people will continue to talk shit about Venezuela, and Cuba...and anyone else who doesn't kiss your ass. As long as you don't believe that you have any right to interfere in their affairs...keep your hands in your pockets...as long as you refrain from your historical penchant of invading, or overthrowing governments through various means...then you can just keep on talking.

The problem is, talk isn't all they're ganna do. Why, I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA, US military, or some powerful US citizens somehow had a part in this. There is, of course, no eveidence of this, and I highly doubt that there ever will be, but intertering in South America is what America has done best for over 200 years. It's where we got our imperial training wheels for the rest of the world.

Considering the record high oil prices it's no surprise that Venezuela is making money right now. What happens when the oil runs out, and nobody wants to invest in Venezuela because the government might nationalize their investment and tell them "tough shit pal, it's our money now"?

I like how instead of adressing each of his points after he showed yours to be false, you abandon your previous positions and make a blanket statement that makes no sence anyway.

Current oil prices don't account for the fact that inflation and poverty have been on the decline almost since Chavez took power.

Those schools and hospitals you dismissed so quickly are saving lives every day, and giving education to those who didn't have it before. That is one of the most important things of all, education, the means with which to better yourself.

Chavez is trying to make Venesuela not dependent on the West, or anybody. He is making sure Venesuela can stand on it's own two feet, and that the people are cared for. He is working for a South America for South Americans, which would be a change from it's current status of colony to the West.

Those with money, the rich, those who were powerful and owned the country before Chavez took power are using violence and lies to try to put the country back in their own hands. Of course the US is recognizing them. They'll play nice with our big business. And fuck the average Velesuelan in the process.

The goal of Venezuela, like any sane country, is to be self-sustaining. Foreign investement is BAD.

It makes your country highly unstable, since they'll withdraw their money as soon as something goes wrong (natural disaster, political crisis, whatever). It's what happened in Argentina, and no sane country would ever want that.

It COSTS you money, because foreign investers expect to take more than what they bring, so in the end you are poorer.

It destroys your national sovereignity, because it gives to investors a veto right on any decision the governement could take: if they don't like it, they withdraw their money.

It forces you to lower taxes, social help, wages, working rights, customer protection laws, envrioenment laws, because of the same veto power.

Definitely, foreign investment is something BAD for a country.

That said, it may be less worse than the alternative in some situations, when you dearly need money and you don't have any other way. But that doesn't apply at all for Venezuela, since they have oil, and they have enough of it to allow themselves to become self-sustended.

Exactly!

During the re-call referandum elections on Chavez, President Jimmy Carter, and Colombian Cezar Gaviria who monitored the election and declared it fair, stated they were not allowed into the main building all the ballots were taken to officially counted and official returns announced from.

The next Venezuealan elections where the pro Chavez supporters gained complete control of the seats in thier Parliment. Parliment to use a term.

Had an election turnout of about 30 percent of Venezuelans, abbout 70 percent did not vote.

As for the coup that ousted Chavez for a few days, I am not saying the following is true, but many believe there is enough evidence that it was a self coup, planned by Fidel and Chavez to bring out the oppositon and arrest them, including military officers opposed to Chavez.

Why did the coup plotters have talks with the US beforehand? Why did they hide out in Miami after?

bump

Venezuela actually has a lot of heavy oil, which it can produce at a slow but steady rate for several decades, even on the global production downslope when it costs $200 or more per barrel and is either rationed or exported under exclusive contract. Thus it will have a reliable source of foreign exchange for a very long time. It will never make them wealthy, but will act rather like a regular welfare cheque courtesy of the rest of the world.

The goal of Venezuela, like any sane country, is to be self-sustaining. Foreign investement is BAD.

It makes your country highly unstable, since they'll withdraw their money as soon as something goes wrong (natural disaster, political crisis, whatever). It's what happened in Argentina, and no sane country would ever want that.

It COSTS you money, because foreign investers expect to take more than what they bring, so in the end you are poorer.

It destroys your national sovereignity, because it gives to investors a veto right on any decision the governement could take: if they don't like it, they withdraw their money.

It forces you to lower taxes, social help, wages, working rights, customer protection laws, envrioenment laws, because of the same veto power.

Definitely, foreign investment is something BAD for a country.

That said, it may be less worse than the alternative in some situations, when you dearly need money and you don't have any other way. But that doesn't apply at all for Venezuela, since they have oil, and they have enough of it to allow themselves to become self-sustended.
Oh, like we should trust your view of foreign investment, you commie~!

...nah, just kidding. I disagree with that, but I'd say you've proven everything else to me. I've not known where I stood on Chavez due to lack of information, but he sounds like a pretty decent President.