NationStates Jolt Archive

A little disclaimer: Non-biblically based Christians or those who are not Christians may be thoroughly lost.

I am a Christian and I'm living. Obviously. So one might say that I'm a contmporary Christian. But I have a few problems with the mainstream Christians (I'm not talking about "Christians") of today.

First, the use of grape juice instead of wine. Jesus said "Do this in rememberence of me," not "Do 90% of this and sustitute your own element to fit with the times."

Which leads to my second complaint, drinking. Clearly the Bible teaches it's a sin to intentionally become drunk. But omniscient Jesus drank: why ought I not to?

Third, the refusal to accept the doctrine of predestination. Everywhere I look I see God's choosing, calling, electing, etc. And yet persons refuse to believe He controls everything. I've been called conceited because I believe in predestination (the Reformed/Calvinist definition), yet I think the conceit lies in those who insist that the actions and designs of an omnipotent and sovereign God rely on them.

Fourth, the idea that (especially in Presbyterian churches) the elders and deacons are to represent the people of the church.

Fifth, the idea that Christian education is second to Christian service.

Finally, the idea that the church is to be all accepting and have no discipline.

Can anyone show me how these things have crept into the Church?

Which Church exactly are you bitching about? Presbyterianism does not represent Christianity (as no protestant sect does...).

Which Church exactly are you b******* about? Presbyterianism does not represent Christianity.

The Church. I'm Presbyterian so I see more of the problems in the Presbyterian churches than outside, but the complaints (I'm not sure if that's the word I want) apply to nearly all the churches.

First, the use of grape juice instead of wine. Jesus said "Do this in rememberence of me," not "Do 90% of this and sustitute your own element to fit with the times."

You focus on the ceremony instead of the spiritual meaning. In some places in the world, they use coconut and coconut juice. In some places, pineapple and pineapple juice. Leavened bread is used sometimes, sometimes unleavened bread. Those allergic to gluten will use rice cakes or some other substitute. None of this is a problem because it is the spiritual representation that Communion represents, not the exact physical components.

Did you know the Catholic Church recently revoked a girl's First Communion because she used a rice cake instead of a wafer? The reason was that the little girl is allergic to gluten, and thus cannot eat wheat products. But the Church is apparently convinced that it *has* to be a wheat product, so she either has to endanger her health or not take Communion. Do you really think that was Christ's message?

Which leads to my second complaint, drinking. Clearly the Bible teaches it's a sin to intentionally become drunk. But omniscient Jesus drank: why ought I not to?

Where exactly does it say that? I can think of quite a few passages that suggest that it is sinful to drink to excess, but not to become a little drunk. And there is a clear difference between drinking and drinking to get smashed.

Third, the refusal to accept the doctrine of predestination.

This is a doctrine, based upon an interpretation of the text. One can be a Biblical Christian and still reject the notion that God just kind of picks a few random people for salvation, whether they want it or not, and leaves the rest to damnation, no matter how much they wish to follow God.

The Calvinist doctrine of predestination can basically be summed up with an analogy: "All human beings are standing in line on their way to Hell. God comes up and just starts randomly pointing, 'You, you, you, you, not you, not you, you, you, not you, you..... Ok, all the rest of you can continue along your way now...."

This cannot be reconciled with John 3:16, as it was written that Christ came so that whosoever believes in him will receive salvation. Unless John 3:16 is full of crap, which I don't think it does, the doctrine of predestination makes no sense. God came for *all* people, not just a select few God chooses to tap along the way.

And the Calvinist doctrine of predestination cannot be reconciled with the idea of free will. According to said doctrine, human beings can do nothing at all to even ask God for salvation. God directly controls whether they want it, whether they get it, and how they act afterwards.

Fifth, the idea that Christian education is second to Christian service.

Not sure what you're getting at here.

Finally, the idea that the church is to be all accepting and have no discipline.

Never seen this idea before. It seems to be something you came up with yourself.

Now, the church should accept everyone, just as Christ did. No one should be turned away from Christ's church or Christ's table. But that hardly equates to "no discipliine."

and I am going to have to change my name to "I agree with Demipublicents1" (well, at least today on matters of theology)

You focus on the ceremony instead of the spiritual meaning. In some places in the world, they use coconut and coconut juice. In some places, pineapple and pineapple juice. Leavened bread is used sometimes, sometimes unleavened bread. Those allergic to gluten will use rice cakes or some other substitute. None of this is a problem because it is the spiritual representation that Communion represents, not the exact physical components.

Did you know the Catholic Church recently revoked a girl's First Communion because she used a rice cake instead of a wafer? The reason was that the little girl is allergic to gluten, and thus cannot eat wheat products. But the Church is apparently convinced that it *has* to be a wheat product, so she either has to endanger her health or not take Communion. Do you really think that was Christ's message?

Where exactly does it say that? I can think of quite a few passages that suggest that it is sinful to drink to excess, but not to become a little drunk. And there is a clear difference between drinking and drinking to get smashed.

This is a doctrine, based upon an interpretation of the text. One can be a Biblical Christian and still reject the notion that God just kind of picks a few random people for salvation, whether they want it or not, and leaves the rest to damnation, no matter how much they wish to follow God.

The Calvinist doctrine of predestination can basically be summed up with an analogy: "All human beings are standing in line on their way to Hell. God comes up and just starts randomly pointing, 'You, you, you, you, not you, not you, you, you, not you, you..... Ok, all the rest of you can continue along your way now...."

This cannot be reconciled with John 3:16, as it was written that Christ came so that whosoever believes in him will receive salvation. Unless John 3:16 is full of crap, which I don't think it does, the doctrine of predestination makes no sense. God came for *all* people, not just a select few God chooses to tap along the way.

And the Calvinist doctrine of predestination cannot be reconciled with the idea of free will. According to said doctrine, human beings can do nothing at all to even ask God for salvation. God directly controls whether they want it, whether they get it, and how they act afterwards.

Not sure what you're getting at here.

Never seen this idea before. It seems to be something you came up with yourself.

Now, the church should accept everyone, just as Christ did. No one should be turned away from Christ's church or Christ's table. But that hardly equates to "no discipliine."

First, Communion is to remind you of what Christ did. It is not necessary for salvation. If you cannot take it properly, then don't take it.

Wait a bit for the verses on drunkeness.

Look at next post for predestination.

As for service being more important that education. I have constantly heard my entire life (though this may be particular to SW PA) that the particulars of a religion don't matter as long as you're helping persons. So it really doesn't matter how much you learn about God. Bull. Faith without works may be dead, but works without faith is no faith at all.

And the last is chronic in the churches today! Jesus loved everyone, so how dare you correct someone!?!? Bull again. We have a fit that the President of the US goes to war on faulty intelligence, but we think it's okay that ministers, elders, deacons, Sunday school teachers, etc. are teaching wrong things? Even when they're wrong on basic things, like Christ being born to the virgin Mary?

And the last is chronic in the churches today! Jesus loved everyone, so how dare you correct someone!?!? Bull again. We have a fit that the President of the US goes to war on faulty intelligence, but we think it's okay that ministers, elders, deacons, Sunday school teachers, etc. are teaching wrong things? Basic things, like Christ being born to the virgin Mary?


you don't believe that Christ was born to the virgin Mary?

First, Communion is to remind you of what Christ did. It is not necessary for salvation. If you cannot take it properly, then don't take it.

So, if you have an allergy or you're an alcoholic, you should be barred from Christ's table? I think not.

And once again, what is the point of Communion? If it is to remind you what Christ did, then it doesn't really matter if you do it with coffee and doughnuts - the spiritual side is still there. Do you really think one can only remember what Christ did if one is eating unleavened bread and drinking wine?

Edit: What you are saying about communion is something that you argued against with prayer. You are basically saying that the substance used - the ceremony - is more important than the spiritual benefits. Your statement that certain food/drink *must* be used is no different from someone saying that we must pray with the exact Lord's Prayer, and never stray a single word from it.

As for service being more important that education. I have constantly heard my entire life (though this may be particular to SW PA) that the particulars of a religion don't matter as long as you're helping persons. So it really doesn't matter how much you learn about God.

I've never heard this. I have heard people say that we cannot "prove" our religious views, as it were, so we cannot force them upon others, but I have not heard a single religious person suggest that none of the particulars matter.

And the last is chronic in the churches today! Jesus loved everyone, so how dare you correct someone!?!?

I've been to quite a few churches, and never heard this. I have heard people state that we should not *condemn* others, and since Christ himself said that, I'm not going to argue. Telling someone that you think they are sinning and why you think so (ie. "correcting them") is not a problem.

Bull again. We have a fit that the President of the US goes to war on faulty intelligence, but we think it's okay that ministers, elders, deacons, Sunday school teachers, etc. are teaching wrong things? Basic things, like Christ being born to the virgin Mary?

Are you saying that Christ was not born to the virgin Mary?

Ephesians 2:1-10 English Standard Version
My input in brackets.

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins [dead, not dying] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived out the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath [It is our nature to sin and to be under God's wrath.], like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses [again, dead, not dying], made us alive together with Christ [He made us alive. It is not our own doing.] - by grace you have been saved [by a gift, not by our actions - obedience is a work and to repent is to obey] - and raised us up with himand seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasuarble riches of his grace and kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift from God [You are not saved by your own action.], not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

We were not picked randomly. We were chosen with a purpose in mind. What did God say to Pharaoh? That He raised him up for the purpose so that God's glory might be displayed.

Read Romans 9 carefully.

I'm all for predestination. If my fate is already set, anyway, why not have as much fun as I can. If I was chosen by God, all the better, but if not, it's no big deal as it's not my fault.:p

you don't believe that Christ was born to the virgin Mary?

I do believe in the virgin birth. Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Read my correction.

I just dislike this Christian Rock Crap.-That wasn't Gods message.

So, if you have an allergy or you're an alcoholic, you should be barred from Christ's table? I think not.

And once again, what is the point of Communion? If it is to remind you what Christ did, then it doesn't really matter if you do it with coffee and doughnuts - the spiritual side is still there. Do you really think one can only remember what Christ did if one is eating unleavened bread and drinking wine?

Edit: What you are saying about communion is something that you argued against with prayer. You are basically saying that the substance used - the ceremony - is more important than the spiritual benefits. Your statement that certain food/drink *must* be used is no different from someone saying that we must pray with the exact Lord's Prayer, and never stray a single word from it.

I've never heard this. I have heard people say that we cannot "prove" our religious views, as it were, so we cannot force them upon others, but I have not heard a single religious person suggest that none of the particulars matter.

[quote]And the last is chronic in the churches today! Jesus loved everyone, so how dare you correct someone!?!?[/qutoe]

I've been to quite a few churches, and never heard this. I have heard people state that we should not *condemn* others, and since Christ himself said that, I'm not going to argue. Telling someone that you think they are sinning and why you think so (ie. "correcting them") is not a problem.



Are you saying that Christ was not born to the virgin Mary?

I see your points with this and with the Lord's Prayer, but you haven't convinced me.

If you haven't heard the problems persons have with education and correction then you must have gone to very strong churches! Let me know where you go.

And I'm sorry I confused about the virgin birth. See my correction.

I'm all for predestination. If my fate is already set, anyway, why not have as much fun as I can. If I was chosen by God, all the better, but if not, it's no big deal as it's not my fault.:p

But you are at fault. Is God responsible for your actions? No. Your actions are your own. If He heals your nature, that is His business and yours, not mine, though He may use me to heal your nature. If you are healed, then you want to follow God's commands, so you wouldn't do whatever you want. You would try to do what God wants, though you will always fall short.

Ephesians 5:18 (English Standard Version)

"And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit."

*snip*

Of course grace is a gift, and not one we can ever deserve. That doesn't preclude a place for free will, however. One can ask for help, for salvation. None of us can ever deserve it, but we can take a step to ask for it, and then receive it, by believing in and following Christ.

The idea isn't that works can gain you salvation, or that anything we do makes us worthy of it. It is simply that we must ask for it, and it will be granted.

We were not picked randomly. We were chosen with a purpose in mind.

Then God doesn't love *all* the world. Just those who He has chosen to give a purpose to. The rest can (literally) go to Hell, apparently.

If you haven't heard the problems persons have with education and correction then you must have gone to very strong churches! Let me know where you go.

I haven't heard the exact problems you describe. I have certainly seen problems in churches - as all churches have them. All gatherings have their hypocrites, and their problems. We are humans, there is no way around it.

But you are at fault. Is God responsible for your actions? No.

By the doctrine of predestination? Yes. God is in complete control. Free will does not truly exist (although Augustine tried to twist it and state that free will does exist, but only to choose between evil actions).

If salvation is dependent on God simply granting it, without any will or effort whatsoever from the person involved, and only those with grace can do good works, then God is completely responsible both for those who are doing good and for those who are doing evil, as they have been chosen to do so.

What those who support predestination forget is that if God chooses some for salvation, God chooses all the rest for damnation.

"And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit."

...which seems like a prohibition against drinking to excess, not drinking at all. Remember that Christ turned water to wine at a wedding celebration so that they could continue to drink in their celebrations...

Of course grace is a gift, and not one we can ever deserve. That doesn't preclude a place for free will, however. One can ask for help, for salvation. None of us can ever deserve it, but we can take a step to ask for it, and then receive it, by believing in and following Christ.

The idea isn't that works can gain you salvation, or that anything we do makes us worthy of it. It is simply that we must ask for it, and it will be granted.

Then God doesn't love *all* the world. Just those who He has chosen to give a purpose to. The rest can (literally) go to Hell, apparently.

I haven't heard the exact problems you describe. I have certainly seen problems in churches - as all churches have them. All gatherings have their hypocrites, and their problems. We are humans, there is no way around it.

Can you show me in the Bible where it says that one must accept the gift of grace?

Is repentance a work? Than it is not what saves you! Is acceptance a work? Than it is not what saves you! God's grace only saves you! The wind (can also be translated a Spirit) goes where it wishes.

God loves all the world, but He is also just. The objection which most persons have against predestination is "Why doesn't God save everybody?" The real question is: "Why does God save anybody?"

By the way, all Christians must have some doctrine of predestination. The word is in the Bible!

And the problems I've seen are because churches are leaving the word of God, not because of the Church being comprised of sinners.

By the doctrine of predestination? Yes. God is in complete control. Free will does not truly exist (although Augustine tried to twist it and state that free will does exist, but only to choose between evil actions).

If salvation is dependent on God simply granting it, without any will or effort whatsoever from the person involved, and only those with grace can do good works, then God is completely responsible both for those who are doing good and for those who are doing evil, as they have been chosen to do so.

What those who support predestination forget is that if God chooses some for salvation, God chooses all the rest for damnation.

...which seems like a prohibition against drinking to excess, not drinking at all. Remember that Christ turned water to wine at a wedding celebration so that they could continue to drink in their celebrations...

If our nature is bound to sin (we are by nature children of wrath), then we want only to sin: it is our will to sin.

Why is God responsible for what I have chose to do, evil or good?

Yes, those not of the elect will be damned. I'm sorry. I weep at times for them, but that doesn't change the facts that the Bible teaches predestination.

I thought that I said drinking was okay, as long as one does not get drunk intentionally (drinking to excess). Did I not say what I thought I said? :confused:

If our nature is bound to sin (we are by nature children of wrath), then we want only to sin: it is our will to sin.

Why is God responsible for what I have chose to do, evil or good?

Yes, those not of the elect will be damned. I'm sorry. I weep at times for them, but that doesn't change the facts that the Bible teaches predestination.

I don't believe the Bible does teach predestination, can you provide scripture to back up your view?

also, I don't see how you can have free will when you are not able to accept or reject salvation freely.

Can you show me in the Bible where it says that one must accept the gift of grace?

Can you show me where in the Bible where it says one cannot?

Is repentance a work? Than it is not what saves you! Is acceptance a work? Than it is not what saves you! God's grace only saves you!

This isn't an argument with anything I said. In fact, it is essentially exactly what I said.

God loves all the world, but He is also just. The objection which most persons have against predestination is "Why doesn't God save everybody?" The real question is: "Why does God save anybody?"

Or maybe, "Why would God claim to have come to save all who would accept, and then not save them?"

By the way, all Christians must have some doctrine of predestination. The word is in the Bible!

Preknowledge != Predestination

If our nature is bound to sin (we are by nature children of wrath), then we want only to sin: it is our will to sin.

That makes no sense. It is like saying, "If it is in our nature to urinate, all we will ever do is urinate."

It is in our nature to sin, that does not mean that all we will ever do is sin, or that all we can do is sin. It means that we will, at times, sin.

Why is God responsible for what I have chose to do, evil or good?

God isn't, if you actually believe in free will.

But if you believe in predestination, there is no choice, it is all controlled completely by God. Thus, it is all God's will and all God's responsibility.

Yes, those not of the elect will be damned. I'm sorry. I weep at times for them,

"Them"? How do you know that you are not among them? You do not. You can believe that you are not, but based on the doctrine, you can never know. You might be a believer who was not chosen. Too bad for you.

but that doesn't change the facts that the Bible teaches predestination.

No, the Calvinist interpretation of the Bible does so, while ignoring the many references to free will and John 3:16.

I thought that I said drinking was okay, as long as one does not get drunk intentionally (drinking to excess). Did I not say what I thought I said?

Ok, I was just confused as to why you seemed to be arguing with me.

I don't believe the Bible does teach predestination, can you provide scripture to back up your view?

also, I don't see how you can have free will when you are not able to accept or reject salvation freely.

Read Romans 9 carefully and slowly. Also, you need to believe in some form of predestination, because the word is in the Bible. Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5,11

And you really don't have free will if you are not saved. That term is only used to appease those who rely on it. Your nature is bound to sin. You have the choice to not sin, but you want only to sin (child of wrath, conceived in sin). Unless God regenerates you, you will not choose Him. Once He gives you a new nature (regenerates you) you are able to choose between sin and obedience (old man, new man). So you do reject salvation freely when you were not saved. You want no part of it - you want only to sin.

Read Romans 9 carefully and slowly. Also, you need to believe in some form of predestination, because the word is in the Bible. Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5,11
*digs out her Bible and commentary* will have to get back to you on those. (maybe not tonight though, going out on a date)

And you really don't have free will if you are not saved. That term is only used to appease those who rely on it. Your nature is bound to sin. You have the choice to not sin, but you want only to sin (child of wrath, conceived in sin). Unless God regenerates you, you will not choose Him. Once He gives you a new nature (regenerates you) you are able to choose between sin and obedience (old man, new man). So you do reject salvation freely when you were not saved. You want no part of it - you want only to sin.
you do have free will saved or not, you can choose to sin or not to sin, salvation doesn't award you anything but forgiveness of your sins. I know many people who are not "saved" who do not sin at every chance they get, they choose their actions, the problem is that we all sin (although not continually) and that without forgiveness you will go to hell for it.

Can you show me where in the Bible where it says one cannot?

This isn't an argument with anything I said. In fact, it is essentially exactly what I said.

Or maybe, "Why would God claim to have come to save all who would accept, and then not save them?"

Preknowledge != Predestination

That makes no sense. It is like saying, "If it is in our nature to urinate, all we will ever do is urinate."

It is in our nature to sin, that does not mean that all we will ever do is sin, or that all we can do is sin. It means that we will, at times, sin.

God isn't, if you actually believe in free will.

But if you believe in predestination, there is no choice, it is all controlled completely by God. Thus, it is all God's will and all God's responsibility.

"Them"? How do you know that you are not among them? You do not. You can believe that you are not, but based on the doctrine, you can never know. You might be a believer who was not chosen. Too bad for you.

No, the Calvinist interpretation of the Bible does so, while ignoring the many references to free will and John 3:16.

Ok, I was just confused as to why you seemed to be arguing with me.

Don't get me wrong: one can be Christian and not agree with Reformed/Calvinist predestination.

Yes I do have a choice, and I choose to sin. I am not a sinner because I sin - I sin because I am a sinner.

And I can know that I am among the elect. I know by faith, just as I know everything I know.

How am I ignoring John 3:16? If only the elect will believe, then what's the problem?

If preknowledge = predestination, why does Paul distinguish between the two? Romans 8:29,30. And any action requires knowledge of what one is going to do before one does it. Except for reflexes, but I doubt God has those.

you do have free will saved or not, you can choose to sin or not to sin, salvation doesn't award you anything but forgiveness of your sins. I know many people who are not "saved" who do not sin at every chance they get, they choose their actions, the problem is that we all sin (although not continually) and that without forgiveness you will go to hell for it.

If your only motive is not to obey God, then your choice is tainted by sin and you are guilty.

It's beginning to storm very bad(ly?) here, so I need to go, and I won't be back until Monday. Maybe we can continue then.

I think you're having trouble seeing the forest through all the trees. All of Christian religion is based on two things. Love God. Love everyone else. If all of your mind and actions are based on these two you won't have a problem with the others.

Notice Jesus most critisized those who followed the law to the letter. They wouldn't help a sick person on the Sabath. Was this LOVE.

Is it love for yourself or others if you're drunk? Is it love for those who cann't drink? At the same time we are told by medicine that a little wine is good for health. It's a simple matter of asking yourself, "If someone observed my actions would they wonder at my love for others?"

Actually, if you study the feast of unleaven bread, you will find the prayers Jesus said. Few Christians know those prayers, yet every Jewish child does. They are actually blessings. A blessing of the "fruit of the vine" (Believers) and a blessing of the "bread of Life". These are symbols. Just like a word or flag is a symbol, not the object they symbolize. "Remember" is the key word. Anything to help you remember the fruit of the vine and the bread of life.

A reading of the Bible indicates God predestines nations and history, but NOT individuals.

The Church is to be accepting in a mood of love. We are to teach through our actions not our words. A true Christian need never tell anyone s/he is a Christian. Their actions should be so loving of everyone that there simply would be no reason to state the obvious. I find those that wear "Christian" as a badge are the least trustworthy people. They try to lure you into trust then they nail you. Jesus also found these people (Pharisees and Sadduces) that claimed to be the most religious to be the least religious. That is why I warn people to watch out for the "Super Christians" of the Religious?? Right.

Actions are of limited value without the mental love, but you can not have love if you don't have actions. Sort of like saying thunder is no good without lightning, but if you have lightning you will have thunder. It's the lightning that is important, the thunder is just a sign of it. Of course you can have loud sounds that seem like thunder without lightning. Education come second to love and the actions that follow.

If your only motive is not to obey God, then your choice is tainted by sin and you are guilty.
of course one must have the right thoughts behind their actions, my point was that the difference between a sinner and a person who is saved is the gift of salvation, which is the forgiveness of sins.

of course one must have the right thoughts behind their actions, my point was that the difference between a sinner and a person who is saved is the gift of salvation, which is the forgiveness of sins.
I think her point was that if someone is not "saved" (accepted Christ) then whatever they choose to do, whether for good or bad, is "tainted" with sin (sin having nothing to do with good or bad acts).

I think her point was that if someone is not "saved" (accepted Christ) then whatever they choose to do, whether for good or bad, is "tainted" with sin (sin having nothing to do with good or bad acts).
which is basically what I said, we all sin, the difference is that some are forgiven, and some aren't (by their own choice, which is where she has the hang-up)

Don't get me wrong: one can be Christian and not agree with Reformed/Calvinist predestination.

But, according to the doctrine, those "Christians" have not received salvation. So, what's the point?

Yes I do have a choice, and I choose to sin. I am not a sinner because I sin - I sin because I am a sinner.

The problem was that you stated that *all* anyone wants to do before they receive salvation is sin. That is no choice at all. It is like saying, "I'm either going to chop your head off or slit your throat. Choose!" By our natures, we will often be tempted to sin, but sin is not all someone, saved or not, can do.

And I can know that I am among the elect. I know by faith, just as I know everything I know.

But what if God has not chosen you, and you are simply fooling yourself?

How am I ignoring John 3:16? If only the elect will believe, then what's the problem?

If "only the elect will believe," then, once again, you have discounted free will - which we are told we have. You are basically saying, "God makes some people believe, and then those people are saved."

This also means that God chooses people to not believe, and forces them to not believe. Thus, God is responsible for their damnation, rather than them being responsible themselves.

If preknowledge = predestination,

Actually, I said preknowledge != predestination. In other words, they are not equivalent. Some have used the words interchangeably, but the Calvinist doctrine of predestination is much more than preknowledge. Preknowledge is backed up by the message of Christ. Predestination is not.

why does Paul distinguish between the two?

LOL. Paul didn't speak English, my friend. Any translation of Paul's words will be colored by the beliefs of the translator.


you do have free will saved or not, you can choose to sin or not to sin, salvation doesn't award you anything but forgiveness of your sins.

I would say that salvation also grants you God's help in avoiding them. We can certainly pray for God to help us avoid sins, and to recognize them as such.

which is basically what I said, we all sin, the difference is that some are forgiven, and some aren't (by their own choice, which is where she has the hang-up)
Well... If I read it correctly, she applied free will only to choices of sin/not sin, God/not God.

If you have "not God" then whatever you choose is not free will.

I'll stop now; I'm probably getting it wrong.

I think her point was that if someone is not "saved" (accepted Christ) then whatever they choose to do, whether for good or bad, is "tainted" with sin (sin having nothing to do with good or bad acts).

The problem is, by the doctrine of predestination, one cannot accept Christ. It is impossible, as one cannot do anything, anything at all that is good until one is already saved. It is more that Christ accepts the person than that the person accepts Christ.

The Church. I'm Presbyterian so I see more of the problems in the Presbyterian churches than outside, but the complaints (I'm not sure if that's the word I want) apply to nearly all the churches.

what type of presbyterian? PUSA, PCA, RCA, Church of Scotland, what? just curious; also, i just sent you a telegram, check it out.
btw i went to a PCA highschool, so i can understand where you are coming from.

This is a doctrine, based upon an interpretation of the text. One can be a Biblical Christian and still reject the notion that God just kind of picks a few random people for salvation, whether they want it or not, and leaves the rest to damnation, no matter how much they wish to follow God.

The Calvinist doctrine of predestination can basically be summed up with an analogy: "All human beings are standing in line on their way to Hell. God comes up and just starts randomly pointing, 'You, you, you, you, not you, not you, you, you, not you, you..... Ok, all the rest of you can continue along your way now...."

This cannot be reconciled with John 3:16, as it was written that Christ came so that whosoever believes in him will receive salvation. Unless John 3:16 is full of crap, which I don't think it does, the doctrine of predestination makes no sense. God came for *all* people, not just a select few God chooses to tap along the way.

And the Calvinist doctrine of predestination cannot be reconciled with the idea of free will. According to said doctrine, human beings can do nothing at all to even ask God for salvation. God directly controls whether they want it, whether they get it, and how they act afterwards.


i would say your view of predestination is somewhat onesided; it can be reconciled to john 3:16...for only those predestined according to God's will could believe in Him. however, denying predestination CANNOT be reconciled with Ephesians 1 (v 10, 14, somewhere in there) where it says we were presdestined. or in 2 Pet 1, where it talks about election and calling. i'm no Calvinist, i don't pretend to perfectly understand where God's sovereignty and man's responsibility mesh, but they do. you speak of free will, well, is someone who is dead in sin and transgession possessed of free will? in bondage to sin, can we freely choose God? i'm not saying buy into predestination, but realize that a biblical believing Christian is as likely to be close to Calvinism as Armenianism. try to avoid the somewhat arrogant (i'm talking to myself here too) attitude of supposing that your interpretation makes it all clear.

I'm going to repeat a point because I think it got lost.

In the Bible, God predestins nations and history but NOT individuals. Individuals were never predestin in the Bible.

Then God doesn't love *all* the world. Just those who He has chosen to give a purpose to. The rest can (literally) go to Hell, apparently.


God's number one priority is not to get as many people out of hell as possible (though it is a genuine burden on His heart, hugely important) but to glorify Himself. all of Creation is here to glorify Him, the Son died so that we may have life, yes, but in order that God (the Trinity, not just the Father) could be glorified. look at Christ's words in His prayers; He wasn't as obsessed with the numbers of people saved as He was simply glorifying His Father. following your logic about God not loving the whole world...well, obviously some people are going to Hell. for their own sin, of course. can you blame God for that whether calvinism is correct, or not? does it deny God's love for a sinner, who never accepted Christ, to go to hell? nope, predestination does not deny the fact that God loves the world.

I'm going to repeat a point because I think it got lost.

In the Bible, God predestins nations and history but NOT individuals. Individuals were never predestin in the Bible.

eph 1:4-14, 1 peter 1:10, john 17:12. you are wrong, my friend; in the new testament, at least, individuals were predestined. also one could make a case for the "jacob i have loved, esau i have hated" passage in one of the minor prophets. but old testament aside, individuals are predestined. does that mean Calvin was right? not necessarily, but don't make biblical claims that aren't true.

If salvation is dependent on God simply granting it, without any will or effort whatsoever from the person involved, and only those with grace can do good works, then God is completely responsible both for those who are doing good and for those who are doing evil, as they have been chosen to do so.

What those who support predestination forget is that if God chooses some for salvation, God chooses all the rest for damnation.


hmm...well, have you heard the phrase "in Adam's fall, we sinned all"? is someone dead in sin and transgression, a slave to sin, whose acts of righteousness are like filthy rags before God, free to choose to please God? i would venture that those spiritually dead (aka those who have not recieved saving faith from Christ) are not free to do good. what else can being a slave to sin mean, if not that? i think that once saved, that is where free will entered. Adam and Eve had free will, but then the day they ate the fruit "they surely died". do you think the dead have free will? did Lazarus have free will to come out of the tomb before Jesus called Him? the notion that everyone has free will is a western construct, not biblical. God sends no one to damnation...man's fall from righteousness took care of that. read "the Great Divorce" by Lewis. however, God did choose Judas for destruction, read John 17:12

God loves all the world, but He is also just. The objection which most persons have against predestination is "Why doesn't God save everybody?" The real question is: "Why does God save anybody?"

By the way, all Christians must have some doctrine of predestination. The word is in the Bible!


Good word...i may not entirely agree with you, but this is truth.

Individuals were never predestin in the Bible.

This is not true, and Romans chapter 9 highlights two specific examples of the many that occur in scripture.

11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

And again

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Just think of how God called Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Saul [Paul], etc. etc.

Yes I do have a choice, and I choose to sin. I am not a sinner because I sin - I sin because I am a sinner.

And I can know that I am among the elect. I know by faith, just as I know everything I know.


i agree with the second part wholeheartedly; Predestination has nothing to do with whether or not we know we are saved. that said...
be careful what you say about being a sinner. if it is Christ living in you, if you were crucified with Christ, if you are no longer a slave to sin but a bondservant of Christ, then you are no longer a sinner. you may sin, out of habit, true, but you are justified--if you are justified, then you are not truly a sinner anymore. God sees Christ's righteousness when He looks at you; He sees the truth, for your sins (and very sinful nature) died with Christ. you are no longer a sinner.

i would say your view of predestination is somewhat onesided; it can be reconciled to john 3:16...for only those predestined according to God's will could believe in Him.

...which isn't really "belief". It is God entering your brain and forcing you to believe.

however, denying predestination CANNOT be reconciled with Ephesians 1 (v 10, 14, somewhere in there) where it says we were presdestined. or in 2 Pet 1, where it talks about election and calling.

These things are not necessarily predestination. God calls, but we do not necessarily answer. And, like I said earlier, people often use the word "predestination" to mean "preknowledge".

you speak of free will, well, is someone who is dead in sin and transgession possessed of free will?

If they are not, then they can never be said to be responsible for their own actions. If I could somehow force your hand to make you do something, would you be responsible for it? Or would I?

in bondage to sin, can we freely choose God?

All of us are in bondage to sin, whether we have chosen God or not.

try to avoid the somewhat arrogant (i'm talking to myself here too) attitude of supposing that your interpretation makes it all clear.

I never said my interpretation "makes it all clear". I simply pointed out that Christian need not believe in Calvinism.

following your logic about God not loving the whole world...well, obviously some people are going to Hell. for their own sin, of course. can you blame God for that whether calvinism is correct, or not? does it deny God's love for a sinner, who never accepted Christ, to go to hell? nope, predestination does not deny the fact that God loves the world.

You forget that, in predestination, a person cannot accept Christ. God just sort of takes over and says, "You accept Christ now." Thus, it is completely and totally up to God whether someone goes to Hell or not. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the person in question.

If predestination is correct, then God is responsible for sin. God chooses those who are saved, and also chooses those who are damned. Thus, God obviously loves some people more.

Edit: Can one really say that a person who has no possible way out of sin goes to Hell "for their own sin"? It is like punishing a person with no eyes for not being able to see.


eph 1:4-14, 1 peter 1:10, john 17:12. you are wrong, my friend; in the new testament, at least, individuals were predestined. also one could make a case for the "jacob i have loved, esau i have hated" passage in one of the minor prophets. but old testament aside, individuals are predestined. does that mean Calvin was right? not necessarily, but don't make biblical claims that aren't true.

You are equating preknowledge and predestination. God can know what will happen without actually causing it.

hmm...well, have you heard the phrase "in Adam's fall, we sinned all"? is someone dead in sin and transgression, a slave to sin, whose acts of righteousness are like filthy rags before God, free to choose to please God?

If not, then it cannot be said that we are at all responsible for our own sins, as it is impossible for us to do otherwise.

It would be like creating a black coat, and then blaming it for being black.

God sends no one to damnation...man's fall from righteousness took care of that.

If predestination is correct, then God does send people to damnation. It is illogical to propose otherwise. If human beings cannot choose to ask for salvation, then God is responsible for who does and does not get it. This means that God is responsible for who goes to hell and who does not, as God makes the choice, with no human input whatsoever. By predestination, God forces some people to go to Hell, and others to go to Heaven.

First, the use of grape juice instead of wine. Jesus said "Do this in rememberence of me," not "Do 90% of this and sustitute your own element to fit with the times."
Jesus obviously didn’t care about alcoholics.

Jesus obviously didn’t care about alcoholics.

Or those who are allergic to gluten, or those who can't get wine or make bread.

Forget theological nitpicking. The problem with the church is that Christians often look and act like everyone else, and the church embarasses itself by going overboard on relatively minor issues like homosexuality while ignoring things that are biblically much worse.

Third, the refusal to accept the doctrine of predestination. Everywhere I look I see God's choosing, calling, electing, etc. And yet persons refuse to believe He controls everything. I've been called conceited because I believe in predestination (the Reformed/Calvinist definition), yet I think the conceit lies in those who insist that the actions and designs of an omnipotent and sovereign God rely on them.

But the question is this:

Does God know where we're going because He decides to send us there, or does He know where we're going because we choose to go there and He has made the pre-supposition (knowing the hearts and wills of Men)?