NationStates Jolt Archive

Having read the thread about the film 'United 93' directed Paul Greengrass I noticed another film he directed - Bloody Sunday. Which reminded me of something I'd heard recently about Martin McGuinness and his involvement in Bloody Sunday. From what I know McGuinnes, the then second-in-command of the Provos, is alleged to have personally fired a gun on the day. This then sparked already uneasy soliders, who had been told by their superiors to expect the IRA to come armed, into firing at the crowd where they thought the shot had been fired from.

I know these allegations are date back to 2000, but the media being the media is excellent about telling you every allegation that is made, but then forgetting to tell you if they were ever proven or falsified. So I was wondering if anyone else knew about this.

I know these allegations are date back to 2000, but the media being the media is excellent about telling you every allegation that is made, but then forgetting to tell you if they were ever proven or falsified. So I was wondering if anyone else knew about this.

Martin McGuinness says he didn't. I kinda belive him. I mean, how Hollywood is it that a major figure fired the shot? It was probably just some grunt. Or the echo of a previously fired British shots. Or the soldiers just went mad and started killing. Or one of a hundred other possibilities.

Martin McGuinness says he didn't. I kinda belive him. I mean, how Hollywood is it that a major figure fired the shot? It was probably just some grunt. Or the echo of a previously fired British shots. Or the soldiers just went mad and started killing. Or one of a hundred other possibilities.
I agree I mean what in the hell would the second in command of any organisation such as the IRA be doing shooting from an unarmed crowd of his own supporters at regular army.

Ratod: It undeniably villified the British Army and British Government in the eyes of the Catholic population of NI. If you knew a country fired peaceful demonstrators, would you want to be part of that country? If McGuinness did fire the shots then it was an excellent piece of propaganda.

Martin McGuinness says he didn't. I kinda belive him. I mean, how Hollywood is it that a major figure fired the shot? It was probably just some grunt. Or the echo of a previously fired British shots. Or the soldiers just went mad and started killing. Or one of a hundred other possibilities.McGuinness was only 22 at the time and probably could have been arrogant enough to do it himself. And if you're going to do something like this then you don't want chain of command to be too long or you risk a leak or espionage.

*continues browsing the web for infomation*

I heard he wasn't in the crowd but in an upper-floor window in a nearby building. On some Channel 4 investigative piece probably.

Ratod: It undeniably villified the British Army and British Government in the eyes of the Catholic population of NI. If you knew a country fired peaceful demonstrators, would you want to be part of that country? If McGuinness did fire the shots then it was an excellent piece of propaganda.

To be fair, the British army and govt. did not need to be vilified any more at that stage. Already, people were (at best) un easy (at worst, hated them) with the British Army patrolling the streets.

If McGuinness (or the IRA in general) started shooting first, then they would somehow have said so immediately after ("struggle against blah blah, valiant soldiers of Eire blah, imperialist blah)

Normally, when the IRA says it didn't do something- they mean it.



McGuinness was only 22 at the time and probably could have been arrogant enough to do it himself. And if you're going to do something like this then you don't want chain of command to be too long or you risk a leak or espionage.

Assumptions.

*continues browsing the web for infomation*

You do that. ;)

Normally, when the IRA says it didn't do something- they mean it.Gerry Adams has always insisted he was never a member of the IRA. Yet (I'm pretty sure of this), the British and Irish governments say he, and Martin McGuinness, were on the IRA Army Council. Both meny deny this. Then you have Michael McDowell saying on July 27th that both men had left the IRA Army council in the past few days. What happens the next day? The IRA Amry council announces that it had ended its armed campaign (despite having not been active for a couple of years).

Gerry Adams has always insisted he was never a member of the IRA. Yet (I'm pretty sure of this), the British and Irish governments say he, and Martin McGuinness, were on the IRA Army Council. Both meny deny this.
Because being a member of any group of that ilk will result in you doing a hefty jail sentence.

Secondly, I said the IRA (I didn't realise I had to spell it out, but I was referring to the 'head' of the body, the Army Council). I didn't say that individuals lie or 'bend' the truth- I say that when the IRA (meaning Army Council) says it did or did not bomb somewhere, or execute/murder/assassinate someone, for the most part they are being honest. (Although it sounds odd saying that!)


Then you have Michael McDowell saying on July 27th that both men had left the IRA Army council in the past few days. What happens the next day? The IRA Amry council announces that it had ended its armed campaign (despite having not been active for a couple of years).

Link?

Link?

It's common knowledge that they were on the Army council and left (possibly in order to remove questions about Sinn Fien). The order disband came much later, and wasn't as a result of them quitting, as Infinite Dunes seems to be trying to suggest.

Bloody Sunday,
that is barely a fitting title.

It's common knowledge that they were on the Army council and left (possibly in order to remove questions about Sinn Fien).
I'm not questioning that part- I would genuinely like to read it that's all! :p


The order disband came much later, and wasn't as a result of them quitting, as Infinite Dunes seems to be trying to suggest.

Considering they were both apparant major influences in keeping the IRA at the peace talks.... yeah.

Bloody Sunday,
that is barely a fitting title.

What makes you say that?

Having read the thread about the film 'United 93' directed Paul Greengrass I noticed another film he directed - Bloody Sunday. Which reminded me of something I'd heard recently about Martin McGuinness and his involvement in Bloody Sunday. From what I know McGuinnes, the then second-in-command of the Provos, is alleged to have personally fired a gun on the day. This then sparked already uneasy soliders, who had been told by their superiors to expect the IRA to come armed, into firing at the crowd where they thought the shot had been fired from.

I know these allegations are date back to 2000, but the media being the media is excellent about telling you every allegation that is made, but then forgetting to tell you if they were ever proven or falsified. So I was wondering if anyone else knew about this.

Mc Guinness was only in Command in Derry at that stage as far as I remember. Secondly it was apparently a member of the "officials" or "stickies" who allegedly fired, though whether or not it was returning fire is unknown. However there has been a remarkable paucity of evidence to show any IRA firing on the day, but plenty to show "fired up" soldiers targeting civillian targets in broad daylight (the priest waving the white hankerchief while carrying a body etc).


Bloody Sunday,
that is barely a fitting title..

Why?

Because being a member of any group of that ilk will result in you doing a hefty jail sentence.

Secondly, I said the IRA (I didn't realise I had to spell it out, but I was referring to the 'head' of the body, the Army Council). I didn't say that individuals lie or 'bend' the truth- I say that when the IRA (meaning Army Council) says it did or did not bomb somewhere, or execute/murder/assassinate someone, for the most part they are being honest. (Although it sounds odd saying that!)Don't they have immunity under one of the armistices or something.

Besides... they, along with Martin Ferris, would have made up nearly half of the Army Council... it's not like the Army Council is a separate individual with its own will... infact Michael McDowell basically said the whole republican movement, from Sinn Féin to the IRA, is run by a hand full of individuals.

here's the link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1418906,00.html

Don't they have immunity under one of the armistices or something.

Besides... they, along with Martin Ferris, would have made up nearly half of the Army Council... it's not like the Army Council is a separate individual with its own will... infact Michael McDowell basically said the whole republican movement, from Sinn Féin to the IRA, is run by a hand full of individuals.

here's the link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1418906,00.html


No offence but Mc Dowell is about as unbiased a commentator on the matter as Conor Cruise O Brien or the "Sunday Independent" ('Hurricane Katrina- provo thugs suspected').

Don't they have immunity under one of the armistices or something.

Nominally under the Good Friday Agreement I think, but they would still go to prison for some time. And I'm not too sure if someone with a criminal record can stand for MLA.

Maybe Nadkor, Bodies, or Kazcaper (or anyone who knows the law that well) could fill that in.


Besides... they, along with Martin Ferris, would have made up nearly half of the Army Council... it's not like the Army Council is a separate individual with its own will... infact Michael McDowell basically said the whole republican movement, from Sinn Féin to the IRA, is run by a hand full of individuals.
No, the Army Council is the be all and end all of the Provos. If it says stop fighting- you stop. If it says, "We bombed X", then they bombed X. If they say "That had nothing to do with us".... that means it didn't for the most part.

Don't base everything you say on the whims of Mr. McDowell. He has his own agenda.


here's the link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1418906,00.html

Thank you :)

It's common knowledge that they were on the Army council and left (possibly in order to remove questions about Sinn Fien). The order disband came much later, and wasn't as a result of them quitting, as Infinite Dunes seems to be trying to suggest.I wasn't trying to suggest that, but they were the powerful figures of the Army Council and that them leaving is the equivalent to the Council shutting up shop anyway. I wasn't trying to suggest that they left and then more peaceful IRA members filled their shoes and decided to stop their activities.

I wasn't trying to suggest that, but they were the powerful figures of the Army Council and that them leaving is the equivalent to the Council shutting up shop anyway. I wasn't trying to suggest that they left and then more peaceful IRA members filled their shoes and decided to stop their activities.

Mea Cupla.

I wasn't trying to suggest that, but they were the powerful figures of the Army Council and that them leaving is the equivalent to the Council shutting up shop anyway. I wasn't trying to suggest that they left and then more peaceful IRA members filled their shoes and decided to stop their activities.

No no. Under normal circumstances, if they left (or were expelled) there would be promotion from within. The gaps would be filled, maybe by hardliners, maybe by progressives.

They had alot of pull in deciding to get the IRA to the table in the first place. They still do have a lot of influence I imagine.

"They haven't gone away you know"

Nominally under the Good Friday Agreement I think, but they would still go to prison for some time. And I'm not too sure if someone with a criminal record can stand for MLA.McGuinness has a criminal record. He was convicted for havin explosives in his car and has admitted he was a member of the IRA (just after he was convicted I think), but decades later said he was never on the Council.


No, the Army Council is the be all and end all of the Provos. If it says stop fighting- you stop. If it says, "We bombed X", then they bombed X. If they say "That had nothing to do with us".... that means it didn't for the most part.

Don't base everything you say on the whims of Mr. McDowell. He has his own agenda.[/quote]I'm not too aware of Irish politics... fine... I'm not aware at all. :p What about the Foreign Minister, Dermot Ahern? The article mentioned him as well.

Thank you :)Someone's already wrong date. And their right, it's just about them being members and not them stepping down. I'll try and find one that mentions them stepping down.

Mea Cupla.Is that an apology. I don't know latin, but it looks like 'me' and 'culpable'. If it is don't worry about it. Mistakes are easily made. :)

McGuinness has a criminal record. He was convicted for havin explosives in his car and has admitted he was a member of the IRA (just after he was convicted I think), but decades later said he was never on the Council.

Might be a record of a different 'calibre'... I'm not too fresh with the law as it stands but some 'crimes' are more serious than others (i.e some are more easily expunged over time). Being a continued member of an illegal organisation would be a blot on his current record too- also leaving him open to arrest in Britain, Northern Ireland and The Republic. Again, I'm not too sure. Don't take it as verbatim from me on that.


I'm not too aware of Irish politics... fine... I'm not aware at all. :p What about the Foreign Minister, Dermot Ahern? The article mentioned him as well.

Nah, its fine. It would be like me taking something your Mr. Clarke or part Mr. Blunkett said as gospel. ;)

Dermot Ahern merely saidWe're absolutely satisfied that the leadership of Sinn Féin and the IRA are interlinked. They're two sides of the one coin." That's stating the bloody obvious, everyone knows that on all sides. However, in true diplomatic style, he only alludes to the personnel being the same.

We all now the leadership is the same- but who exactly makes up the leadership. Its the details that he leaves out- that's foreign affairs for you :p


Someone's already wrong date. And their right, it's just about them being members and not them stepping down. I'll try and find one that mentions them stepping down.

No problem- I just like to read the articles as you would find them. It feels better.

Is that an apology. I don't know latin, but it looks like 'me' and 'culpable'. If it is don't worry about it. Mistakes are easily made. :)

It is indeed. (http://www.bartleby.com/59/4/meaculpa.html)

Here's an article with McDowell saying they resigned. But it's only got a tiny paragraph halfway through.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1791434,00.html

According to Mr McDowell, Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness resigned from the Army Council two months ago and substituted placemen to do their bidding as part of the backroom deal surrounding the IRA’s July cessation statement. But nothing has really changed. “They (Adams and McGuinness) are in overall control of the movement, and there is no challenge to their authority,” McDowell, who is the equivalent of the British Home Secretary, says.

Here's an article with McDowell saying they resigned. But it's only got a tiny paragraph halfway through.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1791434,00.html

According to Mr McDowell, Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness resigned from the Army Council two months ago and substituted placemen to do their bidding as part of the backroom deal surrounding the IRA’s July cessation statement. But nothing has really changed. “They (Adams and McGuinness) are in overall control of the movement, and there is no challenge to their authority,” McDowell, who is the equivalent of the British Home Secretary, says.

Thanks for the link.

F**kface ain't got any proof. He's a master at that. Think .... a thiner Dick Cheney.

I am always sceptical of what he says- he recently alluded to recent riots in Dublin city and said to an opposition Party leader that "they were his kind of people"...

Imagine your Home Sec saying that in the Commons.

Look, I don't doubt that they are in charge, no one does. Its an open secret..... but like all open secrets, it's a bitch to prove, so why bother *shrug*

Imagine your Home Sec saying that in the Commons.

I can imagine it pretty easy. They aren't half as civilized in the House of Commons as they are in the Dáil.

Well thanks for your input, I found that Lord Saville has yet to deliver his final report which is why there hasn't been any media follow up. Hurry up Saville! The beeb says you should have delievered your final report sometime in summer 2005. I shall return after I have eaten.

I can imagine it pretty easy. They aren't half as civilized in the House of Commons as they are in the Dáil.

What what? No my old man, they merely ruffle paper at each other a cheer 'Hear Hear'. Then off and retire to the cigar room for a game of backgammon and brandy. Mwhaha.

Where's my monocle....

I think there should be a film about the Bloody Sunday in Russia

I can imagine it pretty easy. They aren't half as civilized in the House of Commons as they are in the Dáil.Playgroups for toddlers are more civilised than the debating chambers of governments. At least you have to say please and thank you in a playgroup.

Well thanks for your input, I found that Lord Saville has yet to deliver his final report which is why there hasn't been any media follow up. Hurry up Saville! The beeb says you should have delievered your final report sometime in summer 2005.

Must be costing you fellows a fortune ;)

Must be costing you fellows a fortune ;)Just think of the expenses account - bottles of brandy, daily copies of the FT, replacement monocles and bowler hats and the rest :p