NationStates Jolt Archive

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4793160&nav=HMO6


Minuteman border watch leader Chris Simcox has a message for President Bush: Build new security fencing along the border with Mexico or private citizens will.

Simcox said Wednesday that he's sending an ultimatum to the president, through the media, "You can't get through to the president any other way," to deploy military reserves and the National Guard to the Arizona border by May 25.

Or, Simcox said, by the Memorial Day weekend Minuteman Civil Defense Corps volunteers and supporters will break ground to start erecting fencing privately.

"We have had landowners approach," Simcox said in an interview. "We've been working on this idea for a while. We're going to show the federal government how easy it is to build these security fences, how inexpensively they can be built when built by private people and free enterprise."

Ah yes, free enterprise. That thing you can't handle when you whine about how immigrants "steal our jobs." Funny how competition and freedom are good when it benefits border-control freaks, and bad when it benefits Mexicans.

A wall huh? I wonder if they're aware the criminals are using tunnels. Oh well.

Walls... :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

A wall huh? I wonder if they're aware the criminals are using tunnels. Oh well.

Walls... :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Actually, I was mistaken. They only want to build "security fencing."

Which is even less effective than a wall.

What would be really effective is turning the US into a garrison state and stationing active military forces all along the border and shooting anyone that comes within a certain radius, using aerial assault forces to constantly patrol and gun down immigrants. Sadly, that's exactly what border control freaks wouldn't mind.

The second they build that wall,

*BAM*

Mongolians.

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4793160&nav=HMO6



Ah yes, free enterprise. That thing you can't handle when you whine about how immigrants "steal our jobs." Funny how competition and freedom are good when it benefits border-control freaks, and bad when it benefits Mexicans.I would absolutely love to see the kind of wall these mouth-breathers would erect.

Well, if they are building it on their own property, I don't see why not. Even IF we had an open border, I wouldn't want immigrants coming through my property all the time.

I've said it before, and I'll ay it again: A wall is exactly the kind of boost the Mexican ladder building industry needs right now.

Anyway, If they want to build it on their own property, then more power to them.

And to build the wall nice and cheap, they would hire...

Oh. Damn. :D

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4793160&nav=HMO6

Ah yes, free enterprise. That thing you can't handle when you whine about how immigrants "steal our jobs." Funny how competition and freedom are good when it benefits border-control freaks, and bad when it benefits Mexicans.

Why yes, god forbid someone would be against cheap labour screwing up the economy... :rolleyes:

I would absolutely love to see the kind of wall these mouth-breathers would erect.

From the article:

Start with a 6-foot deep trench so a vehicle can't crash through; behind it, roll of concertina (coiled, razor-edged barbed wire), in front of a 15-foot high heavy-gauge steel mesh fence angled outward at the top.

Behind the fence will be a 60- to 70-foot wide unpaved but graded dirt road, along with inexpensive, mounted video cameras that can be monitored from home computers. On the other side of the road will be a second, 15-foot fence, with more concertina wire on its outside.

Well, if they are building it on their own property, I don't see why not. Even IF we had an open border, I wouldn't want immigrants coming through my property all the time.

Yeah. So it's not really about protecting the US at all. It's about keeping them nasty brown-skinned off their private property.

Oh, and it's also about forcing a political situation, probably through violence. (When immigrants die on these fellows' barbed wire.)


He said the Minuteman plan is "to keep turning up the heat" until President Bush has to respond somehow.

Violence used to coerce a government toward a political means. TERRORISM!

Violence used to coerce a government toward a political means. TERRORISM!
Oh, but you know they'd never call it that. After all, they're fighting for freedom! Because clearly when we're doing it its not terrorism. :rolleyes:

Why yes, god forbid someone would be against cheap labour screwing up the economy... :rolleyes:

What exactly do you mean by "screwing up the economy?"

California has the 9th largest economy in the world, it pays more in taxes than it receives in services, and we most likely have as many if not more illegal (and legal) immigrants here than elsewhere...

Wow... talk about twisting reality. Someone goes to secure the border of a sovereign nation and people call it terrorism. What's next?

I mean, if you want to keep the border wide open so that anybody who feels like it can just stroll across, why bother having Immigration laws at all? While you're at it, call off the Coast Guard and the Navy and tell them not to bother running drug interdiction ops in the Gulf and the Caribbean. Have the guards at the border to Canada go find other work to do, and close down the Bureau of Immigration/Natrualization.

As long as you're at it, may as well lift the legal definition of an Alien Resident vs. a U.S. Citizen. After all, once you're not bothering to keep tabs on who comes into the country, it doesn't really matter what their status is once they're here.

In fact, why not just let anybody who comes into the country vote, too? I mean, why make anybody register to vote when Citizenship no longer means anything?

Hmmm... or maybe that's twisting reality too. Maybe, just maybe, we DO have laws in place to handle this sort of thing for a REASON. Maybe having an undefended and wide open border is counterproductive in maintaining and enforcing these laws, and maybe keeping the border secure isn't such a horrible thing after all.

Or am I a terrorist for thinking so?:rolleyes:

snip
Yeah, there's the wall they like to talk about building, and then there's the wall they would actually be able to afford.

http://www.digiteyesed.com/portfolio/img/20041113-rottingposts01-sm.jpg

What exactly do you mean by "screwing up the economy?"

California has the 9th largest economy in the world, it pays more in taxes than it receives in services, and we most likely have as many if not more illegal (and legal) immigrants here than elsewhere...
And yet 15 years ago CA had the world's 3rd largest economy.

Wow... talk about twisting reality. Someone goes to secure the border of a sovereign nation and people call it terrorism. What's next?

You could call it whatever you like, but so long as violence is used to coerce a government into doing something, it's defined as terrorism. *shrug*

Start with a 6-foot deep trench so a vehicle can't crash through; behind it, roll of concertina (coiled, razor-edged barbed wire), in front of a 15-foot high heavy-gauge steel mesh fence angled outward at the top.

Behind the fence will be a 60- to 70-foot wide unpaved but graded dirt road, along with inexpensive, mounted video cameras that can be monitored from home computers. On the other side of the road will be a second, 15-foot fence, with more concertina wire on its outside.

wow thats alot of money!

it also eats up alot of land. its nice to get a free fence but that might be too much for a landowner to "pay" to get one.

Wow... talk about twisting reality. Someone goes to secure the border of a sovereign nation and people call it terrorism. What's next?

One might say that Hamas just wants to secure the border of Palestine, too.

I didn't say it was terrorism... yet.


I mean, if you want to keep the border wide open so that anybody who feels like it can just stroll across, why bother having Immigration laws at all?

Ahh, slippery slope. Either you're for turning the US into an armed camp, or you want to dissolve the borders.

Incidentally, the Canadian border IS wide open and anybody can basically stroll across...

Hmmm... or maybe that's twisting reality too. Maybe, just maybe, we DO have laws in place to handle this sort of thing for a REASON. Maybe having an undefended and wide open border is counterproductive in maintaining and enforcing these laws, and maybe keeping the border secure isn't such a horrible thing after all.

Gosh, not only do we have laws in place to handle this sort of thing, we have entire agencies and law enforcement officials to do so, too!


Or am I a terrorist for thinking so?:rolleyes:

You would be if you wanted to "turn the heat up" until the US government is FORCED to act. Depending on what you meant by "turning the heat up." Personally, I think these guys want to use sensationalist deaths to do so, and that IS terrorism.

And yet 15 years ago CA had the world's 3rd largest economy.

Is that so? I find that incredibly hard to believe. What were #1 and #2 back then?

Or am I a terrorist for thinking so?:rolleyes:

No, they're terrorists for trying to use violence and fear to coerce. You're not trying to use violence and fear, they are. Therefore, they are terrorists. They are trying to terrorize the US government into doing something.

I can say it in many more ways.

Is that so? I find that incredibly hard to believe. What were #1 and #2 back then?

I agree, it seems rather absurd that a state, not even a seperate country, could have a better economy than the majority of the world. I'm certainly not an economists but something about that seems very odd.

http://www.georgetown.edu/sfs/programs/isim/pages/Human%20Rights%20Forum%20Pages/HRFpics/btselem_wall.jpg

There's some precedence for creating fences to keep brown people out.

Gosh, not only do we have laws in place to handle this sort of thing, we have entire agencies and law enforcement officials to do so, too!

Which are so underfunded that civilians living in the affected areas feel compelled to resort to terrorism.

As someone else mentioned, I wouldn't have a problem with them entering the country, so long as they don't cross my property to do so. Of course, I think we should still send illegals packing.... But our citizenship requirments should be loosened a bit. And/or we should create an 'American Foreign Legion' or something along those lines: fast-tracked citizenship for service.

Is that so? I find that incredibly hard to believe. What were #1 and #2 back then?
the whole United States and Japan.

Is that so? I find that incredibly hard to believe. What were #1 and #2 back then?

Disneyland and Brentford, respectively.

I actually found myself laughing at protesters today wanting full rights. First they enter the country illegaly, and now they want the same rights as US Citizens ? I don't think so. As for Wall protesters, including the immigrants comparing it to the Berlin Wall need to go read their history (If they went to school that is.) The Berlin Wall separated a City and Country in two as a defensive measure. The Proposed wall is to stop Forigners from climbing over into our country, and is seperating two soverign nations. I really don't see what the problem is, except pissing off Mexicans wanting to find jobs in America illegaly.

the Canadian border IS wide open and anybody can basically stroll across...


yeah, but who wants to go to canada, besides those running from the law and draft dodgers:D

does bring a good point, instead of building a fence lets provide a service, a shuttle bus from the mexican us border to the canadian border. they are bound to be less dicriminated against up in canada, right?

You could call it whatever you like, but so long as violence is used to coerce a government into doing something, it's defined as terrorism. *shrug*

What violence? When the Minutemen say they'll turn up the heat until the President does something, are you taking it as a violent threat against the White House?

In case anyone needs to be informed, the "heat" is political. They're getting the message out, and I hope it embarasses Bush. I hope it makes our Government look stupid because essentially we have a situation where the citizenry is doing a job that the Government is supposed to handle in an official capacity.

Ahh, slippery slope. Either you're for turning the US into an armed camp, or you want to dissolve the borders.

Incidentally, the Canadian border IS wide open and anybody can basically stroll across...

No, I'm not for turning the US into an armed camp, and yes, I know we have an open border with Canada, but you don't see Canadians swarming across the border, do you? Have you ever actually crossed that border? I have, and I was stopped, ID checked, and then allowed to pass. I didn't need a passport, but I did have to show my Driver's License.

The problem here is one of exaggeration. You're equating a secrue border with an armed camp and the link isn't justified.


Gosh, not only do we have laws in place to handle this sort of thing, we have entire agencies and law enforcement officials to do so, too!

And they're not doing it, either from a lack of leadership or a lack of personnel. Hence, the Minutemen.


You would be if you wanted to "turn the heat up" until the US government is FORCED to act. Depending on what you meant by "turning the heat up." Personally, I think these guys want to use sensationalist deaths to do so, and that IS terrorism.

Based upon what, excatly? A death right now would be the worst possible thing. Suppose a Minuteman kills someone trying to sneak across the border. Can you imagine the media frenzy? Can yuo imagine how many people would cry out for retribution against the mean, nasty Minutemen who killed someone?

And they would have to be stupid not to know that. No, the Minutemen have been there for years. If their desire was to kill someone, it woul dhave happened a long time ago.

the whole United States and Japan.

I see. So China's economy has been growing and it's GDP surpassed California's.

But I suppose you would attribute it to them illegals?

And I'd like to know the source for this statistic anyway, since I find it hard to believe that California ever surpassed Germany's economy.

I actually found myself laughing at protesters today wanting full rights. First they enter the country illegaly, and now they want the same rights as US Citizens ? I don't think so. As for Wall protesters, including the immigrants comparing it to the Berlin Wall need to go read their history (If they went to school that is.) The Berlin Wall separated a City and Country in two as a defensive measure. The Proposed wall is to stop Forigners from climbing over into our country, and is seperating two soverign nations. I really don't see what the problem is, except pissing off Mexicans wanting to find jobs in America illegaly.

But Germany was two nations back then.

And the wall was built to keep people in.

And no one on either side was under any delusions about using the wall for anything militarily in the event of a shooting war. Except as a landmark.

I really don't see what the problem is, except pissing off Mexicans wanting to find jobs in America illegaly.

The monumental collapse of an economy entirely dependent on an underclass of laborers?

the whole United States and Japan.

Either you count states seperately or you count the United States. Counting both makes for a very confused me.

I say while they are busy building that wall we do the same thing right behind them so both problems are solved... <_<

this might be completly wrong...
but isnt a 'minuteman' a type of nuclear missile?

Incidentally, the Canadian border IS wide open and anybody can basically stroll across...


Yeah, funny how that works when you only have one border and that border just happens to be with the richest country in the world. :)

Xenophobia seems to be engendered in countries that cannot control their borders. Countries like Canada and the UK are going to be comparatively open-minded about immigration, because they can control it.

However, the US is historically open to immigration (in many ways, it made us great). More enforcement is in order, but so are ways to let people in legally.

I find the whole anti-immigrant thing rather hypocritical for a nation comprised solely of immigrants and decendants of immigrants. The Mexicans are coming yes, in droves. I'd prefer they do it legally, but I can't very well begrudge them for doing what, were I in their position, I myself would do.


Don't let the anti-immigration bunch fool you, the number of people killed by terrorists in the last two centuries in our country pales in the comparison to the number of people killed by anything else.

this might be completly wrong...
but isnt a 'minuteman' a type of nuclear missile?

Both the ICBM and the organization were named for the nickname of Colonial patriot militiamen. The were called 'minutemen' because they were supposed to be ready within a minute of being called to arms.

They should have the national guard assist in patrolling the boarder; maybe deploy a few gunships to "discourage" the illegals.

As long as they come over legally, it's all good.

What violence? When the Minutemen say they'll turn up the heat until the President does something, are you taking it as a violent threat against the White House?

Again, it depends on the interpretation of both what they want, how bad they want it, how much they value the lives of "illegals" in comparison thereof.

In case anyone needs to be informed, the "heat" is political. They're getting the message out, and I hope it embarasses Bush. I hope it makes our Government look stupid because essentially we have a situation where the citizenry is doing a job that the Government is supposed to handle in an official capacity.

Yeah. I've heard it before. Bush is a "traitor." Blah blah blah.


No, I'm not for turning the US into an armed camp, and yes, I know we have an open border with Canada, but you don't see Canadians swarming across the border, do you? Have you ever actually crossed that border? I have, and I was stopped, ID checked, and then allowed to pass. I didn't need a passport, but I did have to show my Driver's License.


Have you ever crossed the border into or out of Mexico?

And how would you know if Canadians were "swarming"? (nice reference to insects by the way. Cuz Mexicans are like bugs!)?


The problem here is one of exaggeration. You're equating a secrue border with an armed camp and the link isn't justified.

It's justified when there are plenty of people who DO want an armed camp in response to this issue. The people who see illegal immigration as "invasion." Just watch this thread, I'll point them out to you when they post.

And they're not doing it, either from a lack of leadership or a lack of personnel. Hence, the Minutemen.

They're doing it.

You know, it's sort of like if I point out how many crimes happen that the police don't prevent, and claim that obviously I need to call myself a Minuteman and go around fighting crime. Or maybe I could be Batman. I saw a crime happen just the other day - no police involved! Clearly, vigilantism is the answer, right?


Based upon what, excatly? A death right now would be the worst possible thing. Suppose a Minuteman kills someone trying to sneak across the border. Can you imagine the media frenzy? Can yuo imagine how many people would cry out for retribution against the mean, nasty Minutemen who killed someone?

Yeah, that would certainly qualify as "turning the heat up." Bush would be forced to do SOMETHING. Isn't that the goal? Getting more media attention on this "issue?"

And what if it wasn't an active shooting? What if instead an immigrant tried to climb these guys fences and got cut up by the coils of barbed wire? Then it's another death that these people CAN and DO use to point out how illegal immigration causes death.

the whole United States and Japan.
Source?

this might be completly wrong...
but isnt a 'minuteman' a type of nuclear missile?

'Minutemen' are a lot of things, but these yokels are modelling themselves after these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minutemen_%28militia%29).

Yeah, funny how that works when you only have one border and that border just happens to be with the richest country in the world. :)


Luxembourg?

I bet they hire illegal Mexicans to build the wall because they rock at brick work.

How a country founded by and almost totally made up of immigrants (and their offspring) can get so worked up about immigration I don't understand.

How a country founded by and almost totally made up of immigrants (and their offspring) can get so worked up about immigration I don't understand.
Any time a nonwhite (english) group shows up in large numbers the nativists get their panties in a bundle and bitch.

How a country founded by and almost totally made up of immigrants (and their offspring) can get so worked up about immigration I don't understand.

It might help if they entered legally. My ancestors had to stand in line, why can't they?

Any time a nonwhite (english) group shows up in large numbers the nativists get their panties in a bundle and bitch.

Doesn't even really have to be non-white. The nation got its collective panties in a bunch over the Irish and the Italians.

Well I don't see the nativists volunteering to leave so the natives can have it all back, so I fail to see how they have moral authority.

It might help if they entered legally. My ancestors had to stand in line, why can't they? Ok, let's see the papers that prove your ancesters did that. If you can't come up with them we'll have to presume they were illegals.

Doesn't even really have to be non-white. The nation got its collective panties in a bunch over the Irish and the Italians.
(non-english. They were even worse with the Germans.)

Yeah. I've heard it before. Bush is a "traitor." Blah blah blah.
I didn't say that. I said I hope this embarasses him into action.



Have you ever crossed the border into or out of Mexico?

And how would you know if Canadians were "swarming"? (nice reference to insects by the way. Cuz Mexicans are like bugs!)?


Please do not twist my meaning. I never compared Mexicans or anyone else to bugs just by using the word "swarming." If you find it necessary to distort my statements in order to try and gain points in the discussion, I invite you to log onto Wikipedia.com and look up th eterm "red herring."


It's justified when there are plenty of people who DO want an armed camp in response to this issue. The people who see illegal immigration as "invasion." Just watch this thread, I'll point them out to you when they post.

No need. I agree with you. There are those who are at that extreme. I'm just not one of them.



They're doing it.

You know, it's sort of like if I point out how many crimes happen that the police don't prevent, and claim that obviously I need to call myself a Minuteman and go around fighting crime. Or maybe I could be Batman. I saw a crime happen just the other day - no police involved! Clearly, vigilantism is the answer, right?

I would say there's a big difference. Vigilantes are people who take the law into their own hands and work outside of any legal authority. The Minutement are working together with the Border Patrol and are not in violation of any laws.


And what if it wasn't an active shooting? What if instead an immigrant tried to climb these guys fences and got cut up by the coils of barbed wire? Then it's another death that these people CAN and DO use to point out how illegal immigration causes death.

In yuor example, are you suggesting that the Minutemen consciously allowed the person to die, or that it happened without anyone being able to prevent it? In the first case, I would call it murder, but there's no reason to suggest that these people would do such a thing. In the latter case, it does happen from time to time that people die in the attempt. That wouldn't be anything new, just a different mode.

Do these minutement really have the permission of everyone who owns property along the Mexican border to build there? That's got to be a big distance, and doesn't the state own any of the land?

Ok, let's see the papers that prove your ancesters did that. If you can't come up with them we'll have to presume they were illegals.

Go to the Library of Congress. I'm sure that you'll find the names of all my immigrant ancestors written on some piece of scrip from the 1880s or so.

Do these minutement really have the permission of everyone who owns property along the Mexican border to build there? That's got to be a big distance, and doesn't the state own any of the land?

Probably not. And even if they did, a person can't just erect a giant security fence on their property. This idea that a person can do whatever they want with their property is hilarious. I can't even build a toolshed in my back yard where I want to because it comes too close to the property line.

I see. So China's economy has been growing and it's GDP surpassed California's.

But I suppose you would attribute it to them illegals?

And I'd like to know the source for this statistic anyway, since I find it hard to believe that California ever surpassed Germany's economy.
It was 15 years ago. I have no source. I remember specifically discussing it in my State Government class in college. Most of the world wasn't doing well back then, in particular the Asian economies.

No i don't blame it all on "them illegals" but I do think we need to have real border security. I will not discuss it here, though, because you guys immediately start screaming "racist" at anyone who disagrees with you because you rcore arguments are bankrupt.

And to build the wall nice and cheap, they would hire...

Oh. Damn. :D


As long as they build the fences from their side, its fine with me.

Probably not. And even if they did, a person can't just erect a giant security fence on their wall. This idea that a person can do whatever they want with their property is hilarious. I can't even build a toolshed in my back yard where I want to because it comes too close to the property line.

I didn't think so, but I know about as much about American property laws as I know about the eating habits of the mongol hordes.

It was 15 years ago. I have no source. I remember specifically discussing it in my State Government class in college. Most of the world wasn't doing well back then, in particular the Asian economies.

Well, I rather think that at the height of the Cold War the USSR had a bigger GDP than California. So I think your class was using questionable statistics or your memory is mistaken.

No i don't blame it all on "them illegals" but I do think we need to have real border security. I will not discuss it here, though, because you guys immediately start screaming "racist" at anyone who disagrees with you because you rcore arguments are bankrupt.

Do you think we need real border security near Canada too? If not, why not?

Do you think we need real border security near Canada too? If not, why not?

I think we do. But that's me.

I didn't think so, but I know about as much about American property laws as I know about the eating habits of the mongol hordes.

One treat enjoyed by the Mongols was a sort of mixture of goat's milk with a small amount of blood.

Now yuo can say you know MORE about the Mongol Horde's eating habits! :p

One treat enjoyed by the Mongols was a sort of mixture of goat's milk with a small amount of blood.

Now yuo can say you know MORE about the Mongol Horde's eating habits! :p
Hooray, learnage!
*takes notes in case of a test*

Well, I rather think that at the height of the Cold War the USSR had a bigger GDP than California. So I think your class was using questionable statistics or your memory is mistaken.

California is currently the 6th or 7th largest economy in the world (depending on the source), not the 9th as was mentioned, and it has only risen since the beginnings of Silicon Valley in the 1970s. So I'm not sure where we're getting stats that say that it was formerly number three, but I would consider them very much suspect.

One treat enjoyed by the Mongols was a sort of mixture of goat's milk with a small amount of blood.

Now yuo can say you know MORE about the Mongol Horde's eating habits! :p

Don't forget about aiken! An alcoholic beverage made from fermented horse milk.

It's justified when there are plenty of people who DO want an armed camp in response to this issue. The people who see illegal immigration as "invasion." Just watch this thread, I'll point them out to you when they post.



They're doing it.

You know, it's sort of like if I point out how many crimes happen that the police don't prevent, and claim that obviously I need to call myself a Minuteman and go around fighting crime. Or maybe I could be Batman. I saw a crime happen just the other day - no police involved! Clearly, vigilantism is the answer, right?

And what if it wasn't an active shooting? What if instead an immigrant tried to climb these guys fences and got cut up by the coils of barbed wire? Then it's another death that these people CAN and DO use to point out how illegal immigration causes death.

I've yet to hear a case about any "Minuteman" harming, abusing or shooting an illegal border crosser.
So far, they are bringing attention to and trying to keep that attention on a serious problem that needs to be rectified.

They arent "fighting" anything and comparing them to vigilanties-who act illegally by definition is unfair, and not accurate.
And its clearly deliberate.

Go to the Library of Congress. I'm sure that you'll find the names of all my immigrant ancestors written on some piece of scrip from the 1880s or so.
I doubt it. Italians aren't called WOPs (that's WithOut Papers) for no reason.


Illegal immigration is about as american as apple pie. Nativists always yell whenever a new immigrant group comes in, saying that they will destroy the United States. Hasn't happened yet.

I didn't say that. I said I hope this embarasses him into action.


Alright.


Please do not twist my meaning. I never compared Mexicans or anyone else to bugs just by using the word "swarming." If you find it necessary to distort my statements in order to try and gain points in the discussion, I invite you to log onto Wikipedia.com and look up th eterm "red herring."

Oh, fine.

I wasn't deliberately misinterpreting it though. It's not always easy to tell when people online are being xenophobes or racists and when they're just using description.


No need. I agree with you. There are those who are at that extreme. I'm just not one of them.

OK.

I would say there's a big difference. Vigilantes are people who take the law into their own hands and work outside of any legal authority. The Minutement are working together with the Border Patrol and are not in violation of any laws.

Batman may not have broken a law now and then either! And it's a small step in my opinion from taking the law into your own hands, and taking the security of your nation into your own hands.

Whether these people are universally working with the Border Patrol is something I'm not too sure about either. I remember reading a few quotes from the latter about how the former are getting in the way. Can't remember where, though.

In yuor example, are you suggesting that the Minutemen consciously allowed the person to die, or that it happened without anyone being able to prevent it? In the first case, I would call it murder, but there's no reason to suggest that these people would do such a thing. In the latter case, it does happen from time to time that people die in the attempt. That wouldn't be anything new, just a different mode.

Well, I'm suggesting that if it happened, they wouldn't need to consciously allow the person to die - yet they would have caused it, knowing that the attempt would be made, and would have harmful effects on whoever did it. It wouldn't be murder, would it - yet it would have the effect of "turning the heat up," and it would be usable politically to point at the problem again, furthering their cause.

It could be prevented - make legal immigration more streamlined and easy.

I doubt it. Italians aren't called WOPs (that's WithOut Papers) for no reason.


Illegal immigration is about as american as apple pie. Nativists always yell whenever a new immigrant group comes in, saying that they will destroy the United States. Hasn't happened yet.Yep. In fact, the one constant with immigrants is that in the vast majority of cases, by the third generation, they're fully assimilated. First gen almost never assimilates, second gen hyphnates itself, and third gen is fully American.

I doubt it. Italians aren't called WOPs (that's WithOut Papers) for no reason.

That's the great thing about America. You can believe whatever you want. Whether it's true or not....

Illegal immigration is about as american as apple pie. Nativists always yell whenever a new immigrant group comes in, saying that they will destroy the United States. Hasn't happened yet.

I don't have a problem with legal immigrants. I don't have a problem with the Chinese or Mexicans. I have a problem with them entering illegally. I have a problem with the fact that they're here means that our borders are uncontrolled and that, in turn, means that terrorists could just waltz across the border. Hell, the main reason LAX didn't go up in flames in 2000 is because the terrorists transporting the explosives were caught at a checkpoint (with Canada). And if they can just walk across the border somewhere, what's to stop them from just walking across the border somewhere with explosives? What's to stop a gun-runner from just crossing the border with a truck full of AKs? Nothing, that's what.

Batman may not have broken a law now and then either! And it's a small step in my opinion from taking the law into your own hands, and taking the security of your nation into your own hands.

Whether these people are universally working with the Border Patrol is something I'm not too sure about either. I remember reading a few quotes from the latter about how the former are getting in the way. Can't remember where, though.


It could be prevented - make legal immigration more streamlined and easy.

Minutemen are not and have not taken the law into their own hands- They have simply observed and recorded numbers, videotaped. Their presence in some places has prevent illegals from crossing there. They are not acting against illegals-they are not harming or detaining anyone.

You are well aware of this and deliberately twisting their actions to pander to simpletons.


Yes- make immigration more streamlined-I agree. Let these people become citizens and enjoy the freedoms and protection US citizens enjoy.
And make them responsible and identifiable too.

Honestly, the defense is making too big of a deal about this.

All we're really asking for is to be able to know who's crossing our borders and what they have on them. I agree that legal citizenship should be made easier, while at the same time I think some people just don't deserve to live in America. You can't pass the application test? You can't live here. We have rules about who gets through and who doesn't - I think those rules should loosen up a bit, like I said, but the rules still stand.

As it is right now, our harbors and borders are horribly unprotected and are open to a horrid amount of drug and weapons trafficking. If it were just people coming through, I wouldn't care so much - but it's not. The issue is very simple: Shit's coming through that shouldn't be here, and I'm not talking about the Mexicans.

That's the great thing about America. You can believe whatever you want. Whether it's true or not....



I don't have a problem with legal immigrants. I don't have a problem with the Chinese or Mexicans. I have a problem with them entering illegally. I have a problem with the fact that they're here means that our borders are uncontrolled and that, in turn, means that terrorists could just waltz across the border. Hell, the main reason LAX didn't go up in flames in 2000 is because the terrorists transporting the explosives were caught at a checkpoint (with Canada). And if they can just walk across the border somewhere, what's to stop them from just walking across the border somewhere with explosives? What's to stop a gun-runner from just crossing the border with a truck full of AKs? Nothing, that's what.
Unless you have hard documentation that every single one of your ancestors came in legally, I'd tend to believe that at least one came in illegally. It was very common, especially after the really unfair and unworkable restrictions on immigration were put in place around the 1880s.

Minutemen are not and have not taken the law into their own hands- They have simply observed and recorded numbers, videotaped. Their presence in some places has prevent illegals from crossing there. They are not acting against illegals-they are not harming or detaining anyone.

You are well aware of this and deliberately twisting their actions to pander to simpletons.


I never said they were taking the law into their own hands. But if they're not acting against illegals, then what pray tell are the big fences and trenches for? Wolves maybe? Come on.

Unless you have hard documentation that every single one of your ancestors came in legally, I'd tend to believe that at least one came in illegally. It was very common, especially after the really unfair and unworkable restrictions on immigration were put in place around the 1880s.

Given that that (and before) is when my ancestors came in.... I might be able to produce documentation proving my ancestors to be legal immigrants, but I still think your best bet is the Library of Congress.

I never said they were taking the law into their own hands. But if they're not acting against illegals, then what pray tell are the big fences and trenches for? Wolves maybe? Come on.

To remind the Mexican army where the border is? ;)

Given that that (and before) is when my ancestors came in.... I might be able to produce documentation proving my ancestors to be legal immigrants, but I still think your best bet is the Library of Congress.
The onus would be on you to prove your legal lineage.

I doubt it. Italians aren't called WOPs (that's WithOut Papers) for no reason.


Illegal immigration is about as american as apple pie. Nativists always yell whenever a new immigrant group comes in, saying that they will destroy the United States. Hasn't happened yet.

I tihnk you'll find apple pie is not american.

I tihnk you'll find apple pie is not american.
But has been adopted as our own. Much like everything else. America is a nation of immigrants and patchwork cultures, for sure.

The onus would be on you to prove your legal lineage.

If my lineage is ever questioned in a court of law, I'll provide it. I don't need to prove it to you.

The onus would be on you to prove your legal lineage.

Does it matter? He didn't illegally immigrate into the country. If his ancestors did, I'm pretty sure he doesn't agree with what they did. There is nothing on him for hgim to prove his legal lineage, because its a non-issue.

Not usually one to jump into battles, but come on CSW, whats the point?

I think the minutemen are doing something fine. They are legally helping law enforcement in the country. I should think you some of you will be getting on neighborhood watch next, because they take the law into their own hands?

If they want to build walls on their property, why not? People build fences and gates on their property all the time. Buisnesses put up barbed wire on their fences at times.

I never said they were taking the law into their own hands. But if they're not acting against illegals, then what pray tell are the big fences and trenches for? Wolves maybe? Come on.


You did say it, as well as taking the nation's security in their own hands.

I'm making it clear that Minutemen arent doing anything to deliberately harm undocumented, illegal border crossers. They are observing and reporting. You are portaying them to be acting aggressively and somehow violating the illegals somehow, which they are not.

Big fences are whats needed to keep people and their stuff,whatever it may be, from crossing unchecked.

But has been adopted as our own. Much like everything else. America is a nation of immigrants and patchwork cultures, for sure.

Of course, but whats wrong with liking things as they are? Yes, I'm the son of a father who had an ancestor, maybe more than one, immigrate to america. Legally or not, I have no clue(All I know is my french heritage was a generation in canada, before coming to america).

French culture is very much unseen, especially in the west. My people didn't really play a part in changing the culture, and I'm happy. I like our culture, as vapid as many might find it.

I don't want others changing it. I'm for legal immigration, and I know it will change, but thats a different issue. I would prefer it to stay the same.

This post made absolutely no sense, so really, don't attempt to make any sense out of it. For your health.

But has been adopted as our own. Much like everything else. America is a nation of immigrants and patchwork cultures, for sure.
It is rather fitting, apple pie not being American. As it happens the English invented apple pie. I wonder if they'll ever ask for it back.

If my lineage is ever questioned in a court of law, I'll provide it. I don't need to prove it to you.
You're the one who claimed that your lineage was entirely legal.


The point is simply a thought experiment. Those who rally against illegal immigration most likely have some illegal immigrants in their past. Most americans do.

You're the one who claimed that your lineage was entirely legal.


The point is simply a thought experiment. Those who rally against illegal immigration most likely have some illegal immigrants in their past. Most americans do.

All Americans do, unless they're pure 100% native american.

EDIT: And even then, you have Asian descent.

Here's my personal feeling on immigration:
Get rid of it. End it completely. Legal and illegal, stop both. All immigration will be illegal. And obviously I am also an advocate of tightening border security. Both sides, Canadian and Mexican. Erect a large fence running across both borders. Bring the Army and the Marines back to the states and have them guard the border. Guard towers with snipers ordered to shoot anyone attempting to cross the border should greatly decrease the desire of foreigner to try to cross illegally. Minefields all across the border with anti-personal and even the occassional anti-armor mines should stop illegals dead in their tracks too. Bring the Navy back to the states too and work with the Air Force and Coast Guard to protect our shores from illegal immigration by water. Back that up with radar and other survilence onland and quick response teams ready to stop anyone who got by the inial martime defenses.

Now the question of tourism is a bit more difficult. We aren't going to ban that, it would be stupid. But very close tabs should be kept on tourists to assure that no one tries to illegally immigrate via tourism.

I'm sure many of you will call me a racist or a xenophoba and frankly, I don't care. I think this way for reasons far removed from either of those ways of thinking. Here's my thought behind this:
1) National Security. No more terrorists can come into the country and attack us.
2) Jobs. Immigrants take American jobs when there are still millions of unemployed Americans. That just isn't right. A government should be protecting its citizens first and it is my firm belief that every person should have the right to be able to make a living for him/herself.
3) Population. The United States population is already too high. We are an overpopulated country and this overpopulation causes many bad effects. I won't waste your time and mine explaining all of the downfalls of overpopulation. Population growth in the United States is almost wholly due to immigration, without it our population growth would be much, much slower.

2) Jobs. Immigrants take American jobs when there are still millions of unemployed Americans. That just isn't right. A government should be protecting its citizens first and it is my firm belief that every person should have the right to be able to make a living for him/herself.

Except for the immigrants obv. :rolleyes:

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4793160&nav=HMO6



Ah yes, free enterprise. That thing you can't handle when you whine about how immigrants "steal our jobs." Funny how competition and freedom are good when it benefits border-control freaks, and bad when it benefits Mexicans.

I'm pretty sure the only immigrants that would be stopped by the wall are illegal immigrants. Legal immigration would still be allowed. We have a right to enforce our laws. I would imagine that in most cases law-breakers wouldn't make good citizens anyway.

You do realise that Mexicans are being forced to migrate away from their homes due to U.S. sponsored reforms... The U.S. government knew the flood of undocumented workers would start after nafta (largely due to the inability of small Mexcian maise farmers to compete with big US agriculture). The U.S government just saw future migrant workers as a boon to the economy...

I just love it how some of you (Americans) portray the Mexicans as the evil here, when the entire reason the "illegals" are coming is because of American policies...

I've seen some reactionary U.S. media talking about the subject (on CNN), I don't know how they sleep at night.. On one hand they are all gung-ho about U.S. globalisation ("benevolant hegemony" in the world), and on the other hand, they blast Mexicans for following the path of a globalised labour market... WOW

Of course, but whats wrong with liking things as they are? Yes, I'm the son of a father who had an ancestor, maybe more than one, immigrate to america. Legally or not, I have no clue(All I know is my french heritage was a generation in canada, before coming to america).

Acadian?

I just love it how some of you (Americans) portray the Mexicans as the evil here, when the entire reason the "illegals" are coming is because of American policies...
Well, Mexican policies have also had a lot to do to encourage illegal migration: cutting subsidies, importing foodstuffs instead of developing domestic agriculture, lopsided privatizations, not spending in education, lack of energy reforms, etc. etc. etc.

And Fox's insistence that sending illegal immigrants is a proper economic policy.

Except for the immigrants obv. :rolleyes:
Nice job not even reading the rest of it :rolleyes: If you read the entire point I made instead of a little clip you will see that the message there was more that the government should be protecting its people's rights before that of the immigrant. If we could do both, wonderful. But guess what, we can't. So the citizens should be getting the priority.

1) National Security. No more terrorists can come into the country and attack us.
2) Jobs. Immigrants take American jobs when there are still millions of unemployed Americans. That just isn't right. A government should be protecting its citizens first and it is my firm belief that every person should have the right to be able to make a living for him/herself.
3) Population. The United States population is already too high. We are an overpopulated country and this overpopulation causes many bad effects. I won't waste your time and mine explaining all of the downfalls of overpopulation. Population growth in the United States is almost wholly due to immigration, without it our population growth would be much, much slower.

1) You're afraid. Don't let it hurt you.

2) There are 350 million americans, there are always going to be millions of unemployed americans. Even with 1% unemployment, that makes for 3,5 million unemployed americans.

3) Population is better counted in terms of density. You're a huge country, you have massive resources. You don't have a very high density. In fact, you are not overpopulated.

Now the question of tourism is a bit more difficult. We aren't going to ban that, it would be stupid. But very close tabs should be kept on tourists to assure that no one tries to illegally immigrate via tourism.

Then you get no tourists. There are better, easier places to visit than what you're suggesting. I'll bet it is easier to enter Cuba nowadays.

(oops, threadjack)

Well, Mexican policies have also had a lot to do to encourage illegal migration: cutting subsidies, importing foodstuffs instead of developing domestic agriculture, lopsided privatizations, not spending in education, lack of energy reforms, etc. etc. etc.

And Fox's insistence that sending illegal immigrants is a proper economic policy.

Fox is simply following the free-market policies advocated by all politicians in the U.S. Sure the policies are terrible for the poor, and I don't know why the Mexicans have not voted in their own Chavez...maybe they will. But Fox keeps some people very rich, and they are able to keep him in power.

1) You're afraid. Don't let it hurt you.

2) There are 350 million americans, there are always going to be millions of unemployed americans. Even with 1% unemployment, that makes for 3,5 million unemployed americans.

3) Population is better counted in terms of density. You're a huge country, you have massive resources. You don't have a very high density. In fact, you are not overpopulated.
1) Actually I'm more concerned with getting elections in this country based on something other than people being scared to death. I think a nice lockdown would assure that. Also, the role of the government is to protect and serve its people. I think we'd be able to not only better protect, but also better serve our people by following a policy similar to the one I proposed. It would better protect us because we'd be a) guarding the homeland instead of rampaging through the world looking for tiny little terror cells and b) making a hell of a lot less enemies in the process. It would better serve the people because a) less money is needed for a military stationed right here in the US of A; b) less American families ripped apart by distance and, in many cases, death of a family member in the service; c) we'd also have a military serving a dual role as both a protector from foreign attacks and also as a crack border patrol cutting down on illegal trade going in and out of the country.
2) Well it sure doesn't help that millions of immigrants come in and drain even more jobs now does it? Can you say counter-productive? And if we are able to cut down on unemployment that also cuts down on the welfare budget, freeing up even more money which can be given back to the people in the form of greater funding for other services and/or tax cuts.
3) Look at every major city in the United States. The population density there is plainly unacceptable to me. And it is getting worse with more people flowing into the country. And although it is a large country with lots of resources, our resources aren't infinite. And I'd like those resources to be used by Americans, not immigrants. Other countries have resources too. Go there, I don't care. The government should be protecting the interests of Americans, not of immigrants. I don't want the United States to become the next China with an obscenely high population. And as I said before, the majority of population growth in America is from immigration, not reproduction.

FF, Don't you think that approach is a little heartless, not to mention impracticle. A free labour market is just the natural side-effect of the American economic policy... Maybe you should be questioning that, rather then singling out the poor people who have no control over the situation...

My previous Comment... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10810028&postcount=87)

Perhaps a bit heartless, but that's the way it works sometimes when you stand up for your principals. A government of the people, for the people, by the people.
I'm not particularly fond of American economic policy either, but that wasn't the topic of this thread.

1) Actually I'm more concerned with getting elections in this country based on something other than people being scared to death. I think a nice lockdown would assure that. Also, the role of the government is to protect and serve its people. I think we'd be able to not only better protect, but also better serve our people by following a policy similar to the one I proposed. It would better protect us because we'd be a) guarding the homeland instead of rampaging through the world looking for tiny little terror cells and b) making a hell of a lot less enemies in the process. It would better serve the people because a) less money is needed for a military stationed right here in the US of A; b) less American families ripped apart by distance and, in many cases, death of a family member in the service; c) we'd also have a military serving a dual role as both a protector from foreign attacks and also as a crack border patrol cutting down on illegal trade going in and out of the country.
2) Well it sure doesn't help that millions of immigrants come in and drain even more jobs now does it? Can you say counter-productive? And if we are able to cut down on unemployment that also cuts down on the welfare budget, freeing up even more money which can be given back to the people in the form of greater funding for other services and/or tax cuts.
3) Look at every major city in the United States. The population density there is plainly unacceptable to me. And it is getting worse with more people flowing into the country. And although it is a large country with lots of resources, our resources aren't infinite. And I'd like those resources to be used by Americans, not immigrants. Other countries have resources too. Go there, I don't care. The government should be protecting the interests of Americans, not of immigrants. I don't want the United States to become the next China with an obscenely high population. And as I said before, the majority of population growth in America is from immigration, not reproduction.

"Paranoia strikes deep in the heartland"

Perhaps a bit heartless, but that's the way it works sometimes when you stand up for your principals. A government of the people, for the people, by the people.
I'm not particularly fond of American economic policy either, but that wasn't the topic of this thread.

"Perhaps a bit heartless, but that's the way it works when you stand up for the principles of racial purity. A government of the German people, for the German people, by the German people.
"I'm not particularly fond of German economic policy either, but that wasn't the topic of this thread."

Funny, that...

Racist fucks.

"Perhaps a bit heartless, but that's the way it works when you stand up for the principles of racial purity. A government of the German people, for the German people, by the German people.
"I'm not particularly fond of German economic policy either, but that wasn't the topic of this thread."

Funny, that...
You're hilarious. I'm glad your agruements are just sooo relevant and completely make sense. Misquoting someone to make it seem like they are a Nazi is just such a productive strategy that I am inclined to concede to your far superior position. :rolleyes:

I'll pretend like you made a real point anyway and give my response:
I am not against racial diversity, far from it. I welcome diversity. I think diversity is a great trait of the American nation. Wanting to close down the borders has nothing to do with race. If I wanted racial purity wouldn't I be agruing for the deportation of all [insert whatever race you think I hate] too? I'm not. I haven't even brought race into this agruement, because it has no bearing on my position. I've stated my reasons already no need to restate them as you have yet to even attempt a real response. Until that time, I refer you to my earlier posts.

"Paranoia strikes deep in the heartland"
Oh yes, I'm terrified. Shaking in my boots. Being as I live in a suburban area with about 5 thousand people around me and no where near anything of value. Scared to death that the terrorists will strike here next while foregoing the hundreds of places where they could cause more damage. :rolleyes:

First off, fuck the "Minutemen." A bunch of morons. And cowards. A group of them was in my area, taking pictures of people picking up day laborers and threatening to send them to the IRS. Basically making threats they couldn't deliver on and trying to scare and harrass people just trying to make an honest day's buck for an honest day's work so they they feed their families. Assholes. I grabbed and smashed their camera. They got pissed and started threatening me. I pulled out my extendible baton and told them to shit or get off the pot. They got off the pot. And I'm not that big of a guy, and there were 3 of them and one of me. They just want to feel tough and push people around. See what happens when someone pushes back? I'm of half a mind to head on down to the Mexican boarder and harrass these guys myself.

Second off, no government has the right to tell me where I can and can't go, period. That's just my personal take on things.

Thirdly, immigrants don't "take American jobs" They do not wait in a bush for you to come across the parking lot, then jump out, club you over the head, riffle through your pockets untill they find you job, then run away with it. "They" don't take "our" jobs, because there is no "us" and "they." There is only a group of people, and an employer. No man has any more natural claim to that job then another. The employer picks the one who he thinks will do the job best while asking the lowest price in return. Immigrants get hired so much because they are willing to do hard work for less money. So get off your high horse and either be willing to dig a ditch and get your hands dirty, or get yourself some marketable skills. Hell, I'm 19 and I spand 2 years digging ditches, breaking rocks, and carrying concrete up hills. You can't be lazy then blame someone else.

Also, immigration, both legal and illegal, has a negliable effect on unemploymet. That has been shown in every study on the subject. So put the blame where it goes, the government and the rich.

You're hilarious. I'm glad your agruements are just sooo relevant and completely make sense. Misquoting someone to make it seem like they are a Nazi is just such a productive strategy that I am inclined to concede to your far superior position. :rolleyes:

Good. Because the way that you seek is that of the isolationist. The racist. The xenophobe. The theophobe. It goes against everything that this nation was founded upon.

I'll pretend like you made a real point anyway and give my response:
I am not against racial diversity, far from it. I welcome diversity.

Except you're againt immigration. All immigration. That's not exactly a pro-diversity stance, you know. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Of course, I assume that you're a 100% pure-blooded Amerindian. Otherwise, you should go back to where you came from. You know. To avoid any appearances of, say, hypocracy.

I think diversity is a great trait of the American nation. Wanting to close down the borders has nothing to do with race.

Yes it does. It has to do with wanting to protect the 'American' race and keeping it safe from mud-blood foreigners.

If I wanted racial purity wouldn't I be agruing for the deportation of all [insert whatever race you think I hate] too? I'm not. I haven't even brought race into this agruement, because it has no bearing on my position.

That's what the last guy said. Upon further investigation, it was found that the only reason he was against all immigration was because he was racist.

I've stated my reasons already no need to restate them as you have yet to even attempt a real response. Until that time, I refer you to my earlier posts.

If your position were worth taking seriously, we would have done it by now. (And I did, by the way, read your earlier posts.) The simple fact is, your positions are nothing but a load of flaming horse shit and do not merit a rational response, because using rationality with the irrational work approximately -1.16 times out of 11.968 That reminds me. In a certain dystopian fictional graphic novel and (now) movie described a nation ruled by a party that has the same stance as you do. But, whatever. I'll let the others do my fighting for me. Maybe they'll have the patience to argue with another irrational human.

America Prevails!

:rolleyes:

Minuteman border watch leader Chris Simcox has a message for President Bush: Build new security fencing along the border with Mexico or private citizens will.
I bet half of them are so corpulent they'll need defibrulators and oxygen masks on-hand while they erect their wall.

I say let 'em build it - if it means fewer fat American bastard yobbos in the world, it's not a total loss.

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4793160&nav=HMO6



Ah yes, free enterprise. That thing you can't handle when you whine about how immigrants "steal our jobs." Funny how competition and freedom are good when it benefits border-control freaks, and bad when it benefits Mexicans.

I love vigilante justice.

Racist fucks.

awww, look at that, s/he needs to resort to cuss words for lack of an intelligent response.:rolleyes:

Good. Because the way that you seek is that of the isolationist. The racist. The xenophobe. The theophobe. It goes against everything that this nation was founded upon.

Right there is one of the problems with America today. Just because a person happens to agree, for their own reasons, with a group they are a part of that group. Just because I think the border should be closed and so do the groups you mentioned does not in any way make me a part of those aforementioned groups. But to be perfectly honest, I am a part of one of those groups. I am an isolationist. And guess what, you need to read some more history if you think America wasn't founded on isolationism. America was completely aloof from worldly problems until the Wilson adminstration, at which point we got ourselves into the world scene. And we saw the bad effects and ended them with the wise foreign policy of the interwar period. Then when we were dragged back onto the world scene by an aggressive Japan we made the mistake of staying on the world scene, a byproduct of another horrible foreign policy President, Mr. Truman. And we stayed on the internationist course, ABANDONING our isolationist roots. You should read Washington's Farewell Address, it might open your eyes a bit to the real beginnings of America's foreign policy.

Except you're againt immigration. All immigration. That's not exactly a pro-diversity stance, you know. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Of course, I assume that you're a 100% pure-blooded Amerindian. Otherwise, you should go back to where you came from. You know. To avoid any appearances of, say, hypocracy.

It's not exactly an anti-diversity stance either. I'm not one to promote, nor surpress diversity. Frankly, I like diversity, I think it is good. But I don't think our immigration policies should be based on attempts to increase diversity.
Also, I might remind you that it was not American Indians which created the United States. It was European settlers. And also, again, I am not saying I am against diversity. I've got nothing against immigrants as individuals. Nothing at all. I am against our current, in my opinion foolish, immigration policies. I think they should be changed to a system as I described earlier. If I thought we could allow immigration and provide the same assurances that no immigration provides to our citizens then I would be in favor of immigration, but I can't see that happening anytime soon, so the hard decision needs to be made in order to protect those ideal, in my opinion.

Yes it does. It has to do with wanting to protect the 'American' race and keeping it safe from mud-blood foreigners.

I'm really starting to get tired of this. I do not care about race. I don't. There is no "American race." America is diverse. It has many races. More than most countries. I have no problem with that. In fact, I like that about America. I refer you to earlier statements for reasons that I want to end immigration, all of these reasons regardless of race.

That's what the last guy said. Upon further investigation, it was found that the only reason he was against all immigration was because he was racist.

Who's "the last guy"? If you are talking about Hitler, you are mistaken. He had always said that he hated Jews, Communists, Slavs, etc. He made no secret of it, he told the world what his intentions were.
I am not a racist. I embrace our diversity. I just have a different theory on immigration policy and you have just used ad hominem to support your agruements against me and being, as ad hominem agruements always are, completely unproductive.

If your position were worth taking seriously, we would have done it by now. (And I did, by the way, read your earlier posts.) The simple fact is, your positions are nothing but a load of flaming horse shit and do not merit a rational response, because using rationality with the irrational work approximately -1.16 times out of 11.968 That reminds me. In a certain dystopian fictional graphic novel and (now) movie described a nation ruled by a party that has the same stance as you do. But, whatever. I'll let the others do my fighting for me. Maybe they'll have the patience to argue with another irrational human.

Ok fine. If you are going to take that position that's fine. Don't even comment on it then. If you really think it is so off the wall that it doesn't deserve a rational response then don't waste my time and your time by giving an irrational response that is designed to require a response from me.

The only ones bringing up the issue of race are the anti-sovereign crowd. That's because they have no other argument.

If someone says they are opposed to illegal immigrant being allowed to live and work in this country, the crowd cries

Racist fucks.

or

Yeah. So it's not really about protecting the US at all. It's about keeping them nasty brown-skinned off their private property.


Because they have nothing else, they have to resort to demonize anyone who has a position opposite their own.

They absolutely refuse to accept that someone could be opposed to illegal immigration while being completely open to legal immigration.

*lots of paranoid ramblings*
So you support the collaspe of the US economy?

Interesting.

They absolutely refuse to accept that someone could be opposed to illegal immigration while being completely open to legal immigration.
Have you looked at legal immigration as of late? Do you know what it takes in terms of time and money to legally come into the US, even if you have a US citizen sponsoring you as a family member? Do you have any idea at all what this is like?

It ain't the 1800's when you just lined up at Elis Island and signed your name in the book and said you didn't have TB.

The legal process is broken and really needs to be fixed.

Have you looked at legal immigration as of late? Do you know what it takes in terms of time and money to legally come into the US, even if you have a US citizen sponsoring you as a family member? Do you have any idea at all what this is like?

It ain't the 1800's when you just lined up at Elis Island and signed your name in the book and said you didn't have TB.

The legal process is broken and really needs to be fixed.
Fine, fix it. About time that was done.

But don't just ignore laws because you feel they are "unjust" or "broken".

Are illegal immigrants somehow better than those who try to immigrate the legal way? Do they deserve more?
Or perhaps, those who are attempting to do it the legal way deserve their chance at citizenship or even jobs before those who are willing to break whatever laws they feel they can to get what they want.

So you support the collaspe of the US economy?

Interesting.

And how, exactly, does making immigration illegal and enforcing it destroy the US economy? Perhaps your theory is the more immigration the better our economy does? So we should actively increase immigration by just not having border restrictions at all? I assume this is what you are saying?

A wall huh? I wonder if they're aware the criminals are using tunnels. Oh well.

Walls... :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Mines would solve that. Does anyone know where I can donate to help build this wall?

And yet 15 years ago CA had the world's 3rd largest economy.

Well, looking at the figures from here...

http://www.bea.gov/bea/ARTICLES/regional/GSP/1995/0595rea.pdf

Appendix A, in particular, and the figures from here

http://www.theodora.com/wfb/1991/rankings/gdp_million_1.html

(Based on figures from the CIA World Factbook),


California would rank 7th in the world.

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4793160&nav=HMO6



Ah yes, free enterprise. That thing you can't handle when you whine about how immigrants "steal our jobs." Funny how competition and freedom are good when it benefits border-control freaks, and bad when it benefits Mexicans.

Fences didn't stop Bo and Luke and they were just some moonshiners....

The only ones bringing up the issue of race are the anti-sovereign crowd. That's because they have no other argument.

If someone says they are opposed to illegal immigrant being allowed to live and work in this country, the crowd cries

or


Because they have nothing else, they have to resort to demonize anyone who has a position opposite their own.

They absolutely refuse to accept that someone could be opposed to illegal immigration while being completely open to legal immigration.

I am anti-sovereign. I am not doing what you're suggesting that I am doing.

Generalizing doesn't work and its bad.

1) Actually I'm more concerned with getting elections in this country based on something other than people being scared to death. I think a nice lockdown would assure that. Also, the role of the government is to protect and serve its people. I think we'd be able to not only better protect, but also better serve our people by following a policy similar to the one I proposed. It would better protect us because we'd be a) guarding the homeland instead of rampaging through the world looking for tiny little terror cells and b) making a hell of a lot less enemies in the process. It would better serve the people because a) less money is needed for a military stationed right here in the US of A; b) less American families ripped apart by distance and, in many cases, death of a family member in the service; c) we'd also have a military serving a dual role as both a protector from foreign attacks and also as a crack border patrol cutting down on illegal trade going in and out of the country.
2) Well it sure doesn't help that millions of immigrants come in and drain even more jobs now does it? Can you say counter-productive? And if we are able to cut down on unemployment that also cuts down on the welfare budget, freeing up even more money which can be given back to the people in the form of greater funding for other services and/or tax cuts.
3) Look at every major city in the United States. The population density there is plainly unacceptable to me. And it is getting worse with more people flowing into the country. And although it is a large country with lots of resources, our resources aren't infinite. And I'd like those resources to be used by Americans, not immigrants. Other countries have resources too. Go there, I don't care. The government should be protecting the interests of Americans, not of immigrants. I don't want the United States to become the next China with an obscenely high population. And as I said before, the majority of population growth in America is from immigration, not reproduction.

Excuse me if I am short.

1) Your opinions, however, are guided by the fear of the existence of terrorism, which causes neglible harm and deaths compared to the many other ways to lose an arm or die. Therefore, when you go out to vote and thus elect someone, you're letting your fear guide you towards those who would serve your opinions.

I don't think you'll be protecting much.

However, I do agree with you on points a1, b1, a2 and b2. I'll ignore c.

2) They don't drain jobs though. They might do jobs more cheaply (which is good for the economy and actually benefits most people, as they don't have to pay as much for the same service). They might do some jobs that no one else wants to do (good for everyone, as a job that needs to be done actually gets done). They might also be skilled immigrants and thus perform a needed skilled job (doctors are a prime example, almost always in need).

Since illegal immigrants do not pay taxes, but legal immigrants do (more than illegals anyway), maybe it would be better to encourage a lot of legal immigration, which would reduce illegal immigration and also help to pay for all that welfare and everything else that your taxes go to. Essentially, they would also help improve your local society, if you only let them.

3) Your population density ranks 143rd in the world, according to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

I'd say you have plenty of room and a lot of resources (agricultural and otherwise), compared to most places. There are many open spaces still available for people to live on and use. The american cities are hardly the most dense, excepting New York and similar cities (but they tend to be cool).

In case you haven't noticed, most americans Are immigrants.

Your population doesn't exceed the EU's, yet the EU is smaller. Since there is no overpopulation in the EU, there cannot be an overpopulation in the US.

Fine, fix it. About time that was done.

But don't just ignore laws because you feel they are "unjust" or "broken".

Are illegal immigrants somehow better than those who try to immigrate the legal way? Do they deserve more?
Or perhaps, those who are attempting to do it the legal way deserve their chance at citizenship or even jobs before those who are willing to break whatever laws they feel they can to get what they want.
Didn't say that, I said that the current system is set up in a way that makes it extreamly difficult to legally immigrate to the US, and does so in a way to make it almost impossible for many of the illegals coming across.

It does need to be fixed, but I don't see the folks screaming for border control also saying, "Well, hell, we need to fix this as well to make it fair."

Didn't say that, I said that the current system is set up in a way that makes it extreamly difficult to legally immigrate to the US, and does so in a way to make it almost impossible for many of the illegals coming across.

It does need to be fixed, but I don't see the folks screaming for border control also saying, "Well, hell, we need to fix this as well to make it fair."
They are saying that... it's just that when "tighten up the border" is heard, fingers go in ears, chanting "racist fucks" and nothing said after that is heard.

And how, exactly, does making immigration illegal and enforcing it destroy the US economy? Perhaps your theory is the more immigration the better our economy does? So we should actively increase immigration by just not having border restrictions at all? I assume this is what you are saying?
1. If we go totally isolationist, the world may respond in kind. As much as the world needs the US, the US also needs the world. Sorry, but we can no longer survive by ourselves with our present lifestyles (and good luck convincing Americans to go without Wal*Mart or cheap products). You shut down the US, make it that hard to get anything in or out, people WILL go elsewhere.

2. This country was built by immigrants, or as one Irishman put it, "The streets are not paved with gold, they're not paved at all, and I am the one expected to pave them." Even now, many of the inventions, doctorates, and research being conducted in this country are being done by immigrants and international students. Shut that down and well... There goes US leadership on technology.

This is actually already occuring with tighter controls and an unwelcoming 'tude thanks to 9/11. US colleges are reporting a signifigant drop in international students and it is having an effect on US research, which is mainly done at our universities.

3. Finally, those immigrants also act as our ambassadors to the world. How else does America get its message out? No one believes the words of the president. People know when they're listening to paid adverts, they're not stupid. Now letters from a cousin who came to America... they carry weight. More weight than anything the State Department has done.

No, you remove and shut down the US, our economy colapses. We are dependant on the steady flow of immigrants into the US.

But, then again, we have ALWAYS been so. Remember that.

They are saying that... it's just that when "tighten up the border" is heard, fingers go in ears, chanting "racist fucks" and nothing said after that is heard.
Got proof? Free Farmers is saying we should shut down compleatly. In Washington, the House GOP was about ready to string up President Bush when he proposed a guest worker program (What? And let them come back in?! NEVER!).

The Minutemen haven't been champions of calling for immigration reform to make it easier for folks to actually immigrate into the US. I have heard the oposet, make it harder, make it so that next to no one comes in.

So please, SHOW me how those who are calling for fences on the border are also calling for immigration reform to make it easier and actually possible to immigrate into the US. Tell me how these groups are actually aware of the loto system that designates a handful of people per year and how they want this fixed. Introduce me to a group that, while asking for US military assistace and mass deportations is also saying how unjust the system is that can deny an application for immigration, even for the wife of a US citizen, for no reason and with no appeal.

Please show me these things, because I have not seen it.

1. If we go totally isolationist, the world may respond in kind. As much as the world needs the US, the US also needs the world. Sorry, but we can no longer survive by ourselves with our present lifestyles (and good luck convincing Americans to go without Wal*Mart or cheap products). You shut down the US, make it that hard to get anything in or out, people WILL go elsewhere.

2. This country was built by immigrants, or as one Irishman put it, "The streets are not paved with gold, they're not paved at all, and I am the one expected to pave them." Even now, many of the inventions, doctorates, and research being conducted in this country are being done by immigrants and international students. Shut that down and well... There goes US leadership on technology.

This is actually already occuring with tighter controls and an unwelcoming 'tude thanks to 9/11. US colleges are reporting a signifigant drop in international students and it is having an effect on US research, which is mainly done at our universities.

3. Finally, those immigrants also act as our ambassadors to the world. How else does America get its message out? No one believes the words of the president. People know when they're listening to paid adverts, they're not stupid. Now letters from a cousin who came to America... they carry weight. More weight than anything the State Department has done.

No, you remove and shut down the US, our economy colapses. We are dependant on the steady flow of immigrants into the US.

But, then again, we have ALWAYS been so. Remember that.
Everything you said is true.
But other than Free Farmers, no one is advocating an isolationist policy. Fix the laws, come up with a more reasonable, rational immigration policy.

But stop the flow if illegal immigrants, from whatever border they are coming across.

But don't just ignore laws because you feel they are "unjust" or "broken".

Actually, many people feel it's a persons duty to ignore unjust and broken laws.

Everything you said is true.
But other than Free Farmers, no one is advocating an isolationist policy. Fix the laws, come up with a more reasonable, rational immigration policy.

But stop the flow if illegal immigrants, from whatever border they are coming across.
If you got a leaky pipe, do you fix the pipe, or do you attempt to build a dam?

I'd rather fix the damn pipe, but I haven't seen to many people also working on that.

The only ones bringing up the issue of race are the anti-sovereign crowd. That's because they have no other argument.


Wouldn't that be nice if it was true?

Too bad it isn't. Racism is not my only argument. I simply question the motives behind people who are apparently SO supportive of Law And Order when it comes to this ONE issue.

Where's the Minutemen when I jaywalk?

Nowhere! Because they're not trying to enforce broken laws. They are, in their mind, defending their nation. But what do you gather from Katzistanza's post? Must be lies, right, because those brave defenders couldn't really be just a bunch of assholes who harass people based on the ASSUMPTION that they're "illegals" right?

It's not so much racism as xenophobia and bigotry.


They absolutely refuse to accept that someone could be opposed to illegal immigration while being completely open to legal immigration.

Untrue. Thanks for playing. Kthxbye.

First off, fuck the "Minutemen." A bunch of morons. And cowards. A group of them was in my area, taking pictures of people picking up day laborers and threatening to send them to the IRS. Basically making threats they couldn't deliver on and trying to scare and harrass people just trying to make an honest day's buck for an honest day's work so they they feed their families. Assholes. I grabbed and smashed their camera. They got pissed and started threatening me. I pulled out my extendible baton and told them to shit or get off the pot. They got off the pot. And I'm not that big of a guy, and there were 3 of them and one of me. They just want to feel tough and push people around. See what happens when someone pushes back? I'm of half a mind to head on down to the Mexican boarder and harrass these guys myself.

Second off, no government has the right to tell me where I can and can't go, period. That's just my personal take on things.

Thirdly, immigrants don't "take American jobs" They do not wait in a bush for you to come across the parking lot, then jump out, club you over the head, riffle through your pockets untill they find you job, then run away with it. "They" don't take "our" jobs, because there is no "us" and "they." There is only a group of people, and an employer. No man has any more natural claim to that job then another. The employer picks the one who he thinks will do the job best while asking the lowest price in return. Immigrants get hired so much because they are willing to do hard work for less money. So get off your high horse and either be willing to dig a ditch and get your hands dirty, or get yourself some marketable skills. Hell, I'm 19 and I spand 2 years digging ditches, breaking rocks, and carrying concrete up hills. You can't be lazy then blame someone else.

Also, immigration, both legal and illegal, has a negliable effect on unemploymet. That has been shown in every study on the subject. So put the blame where it goes, the government and the rich.


So you destroyed someone's personal property for taking pictures? And pulled out a weapon? Good Job. :rolleyes: Heaven forbid someone reports a crime in this country.

On the issue where people claim that illegal immigrants "steal" jobs from Americans, IF there were no illegal immigrants, maybe the employers that normally hire them would be forced to follow the labor laws and pay at least minimum wage, give medical benefits, and take out social security taxes.

On a related note, I do think the immigration laws need to be redone so it's easier to immigrate legally to the US, however I have little tolerance for those that do so illegally.

ETA, I doubt the Minutemen were threatening to inform the IRS, although they might have been threatening to inform the INS (little bit of a difference there).

Actually, many people feel it's a persons duty to FIX unjust and broken laws.

Fixed it for you. :D

Ahh, slippery slope. Either you're for turning the US into an armed camp, or you want to dissolve the borders.
Ah, I see.
The old "Them or us."

What violence? When the Minutemen say they'll turn up the heat until the President does something, are you taking it as a violent threat against the White House?

If this fence does go up, chances are, it would be patrolled with armed guards and loose rules about where and when to shoot. It would be violence then I should think. Although if they hit people before they crossed the border, it would actually be inciting the first steps of a low level war since technically, they would still be on Mexican territory.

"low level war"?

"low level war"?

The type of thing that occurs whenever the Mexican army crosses the border with the US while on manuevers. Or to escort drug runners.

If this fence does go up, chances are, it would be patrolled with armed guards and loose rules about where and when to shoot. It would be violence then I should think. Although if they hit people before they crossed the border, it would actually be inciting the first steps of a low level war since technically, they would still be on Mexican territory.

I would suspect that the illegal immigrants would act as most any other human would when faced with an obstacle such as a fence that doesn't completely block their way, and go around them. Therefore, wouldn't it make sense for the fence's function to be to funnel these illegals into a narrow area, so that the border patrol would be able to pick them up quicker?

Voila, no violence. :D

1. If we go totally isolationist, the world may respond in kind. As much as the world needs the US, the US also needs the world. Sorry, but we can no longer survive by ourselves with our present lifestyles (and good luck convincing Americans to go without Wal*Mart or cheap products). You shut down the US, make it that hard to get anything in or out, people WILL go elsewhere.
Wow, good job not even bothering to try comprehending what I wrote. I never said we should be going medieval Japan style isolationist. I was thinking more along the lines of American isolationism that we practiced for one hundred years, but a little bit higher level. Political isolation was the name I do believe. In which you isolate yourself politically (ie no foreign wars, no long treaties, no "foreign aid", etc. In this case add in no immigration) and stay open economically. We can still trade with the world without being involved in every nook and cranny of it. Works well enough for plenty of nations.

2. This country was built by immigrants, or as one Irishman put it, "The streets are not paved with gold, they're not paved at all, and I am the one expected to pave them." Even now, many of the inventions, doctorates, and research being conducted in this country are being done by immigrants and international students. Shut that down and well... There goes US leadership on technology.
And now that's it's built (we do have the largest economy in the world) the need to allow immigration has faded.

3. Finally, those immigrants also act as our ambassadors to the world. How else does America get its message out? No one believes the words of the president. People know when they're listening to paid adverts, they're not stupid. Now letters from a cousin who came to America... they carry weight. More weight than anything the State Department has done.
We don't need a "message." Let the world and it's various nations do whatever they please; as long as they don't harm us we don't need to be involved.

Wouldn't that be nice if it was true?
Yea, it's true. Some just to more a degree than others.

Too bad it isn't. Racism is not my only argument. I simply question the motives behind people who are apparently SO supportive of Law And Order when it comes to this ONE issue.

Why do you question the motives of anyone who are supportive of Law and Order? This is a bad thing?

Where's the Minutemen when I jaywalk?
Nowhere! Because they're not trying to enforce broken laws.
strawman.

They are, in their mind, defending their nation.
Again, this is a bad thing? Why are you so opposed to peoplel who wish to defend their country?
But what do you gather from Katzistanza's post? Must be lies, right, because those brave defenders couldn't really be just a bunch of assholes who harass people based on the ASSUMPTION that they're "illegals" right?
Yes, lies. Where are the reports in the media about this? Where is the ACLU bringing lawsuits against the Minutemen? Seeing as how the Minuteman opponents would absolutely jump on the chance to "bring them down" everyting he posted was a falsehood, created to attempt to sway someones opinion by demonizing his opponents.

It's not so much racism as xenophobia and bigotry.
There you go again with the demonizing. Can't you have a debate with calling your opponents names?

Untrue. Thanks for playing. Kthxbye.
True. If you can't play nice with others, don't play at all.

Actually, many people feel it's a persons duty to ignore unjust and broken laws.
Then their "feeling" is wrong.
Pedophiles should just ignore laws against having sex with 4 year olds because they truely believe the laws are unjust and broken?
Fix the laws first, but at all times follow the law.

Why do you question the motives of anyone who are supportive of Law and Order? This is a bad thing?


When they do it inconsistently, it makes me think either they're half-asses, or they have some other motive rather than making everything nice and tidy.


strawman.

Nope. This goes into the inconsistency thing.


Again, this is a bad thing? Why are you so opposed to peoplel who wish to defend their country?

Because harassing day laborers by assuming they're illegal immigrants isn't defending your nation. Building a defensive bulwork on your property isn't defending your nation. Did I mention that illegal immigration isn't an invasion? You may think that's a strawman, but anti-immigrants think illegal immigration is an actual invasion.

Yes, lies. Where are the reports in the media about this? Where is the ACLU bringing lawsuits against the Minutemen? Seeing as how the Minuteman opponents would absolutely jump on the chance to "bring them down" everyting he posted was a falsehood, created to attempt to sway someones opinion by demonizing his opponents.

Oh. So if it's not in the media (that you've seen), it's a lie?

There you go again with the demonizing. Can't you have a debate with calling your opponents names?

Saying that a xenophobic viewpoint is xenophobic, is "calling my opponent a name?"

I haven't called you anything.

It's not demonizing to accurately describe a bunker mentality that some people have. It would be calling you a name if I said you were a paranoid, easily-manipulated pseudo-patriotic cocksmoker. Of course, I haven't called you any such thing.

When they do it inconsistently, it makes me think either they're half-asses, or they have some other motive rather than making everything nice and tidy.

Nope. This goes into the inconsistency thing.

Because harassing day laborers by assuming they're illegal immigrants isn't defending your nation. Building a defensive bulwork on your property isn't defending your nation. Did I mention that illegal immigration isn't an invasion? You may think that's a strawman, but anti-immigrants think illegal immigration is an actual invasion.

Oh. So if it's not in the media (that you've seen), it's a lie?

Saying that a xenophobic viewpoint is xenophobic, is "calling my opponent a name?"

I haven't called you anything.

It's not demonizing to accurately describe a bunker mentality that some people have. It would be calling you a name if I said you were a paranoid, easily-manipulated pseudo-patriotic cocksmoker. Of course, I haven't called you any such thing.
No inconsistancy about it. They see a problem and are trying to fix it. But to you, because the Minutemen aren't captain americas trying to stop all lawbreakers then they are the bad guys. That argument doen't fly.
And nice "name calling without calling names". Am I in the wrong place? Is this the third grade playground forum or something?

No inconsistancy about it. They see a problem and are trying to fix it. But to you, because the Minutemen aren't captain americas trying to stop all lawbreakers then they are the bad guys. That argument doen't fly.
And nice "name calling without calling names". Am I in the wrong place? Is this the third grade playground forum or something?

Now that was name-calling.

No inconsistancy about it. They see a problem and are trying to fix it.

Yeah. And it seems to be the only problem they see. Narrow vision, or narrow mind?

It IS inconsistency and you know it. These people are one-issue donkeys, always braying about the huge threat they imagine comes from their pet issue.

But to you, because the Minutemen aren't captain americas trying to stop all lawbreakers then they are the bad guys. That argument doen't fly.

My argument isn't that they are "the bad guys." But the "they're breaking the law and that's wrong and that's why I'm a minuteman" argument fails the logic test.

And nice "name calling without calling names". Am I in the wrong place? Is this the third grade playground forum or something?

I knew you'd like that one. ;)

Wow, good job not even bothering to try comprehending what I wrote. I never said we should be going medieval Japan style isolationist. I was thinking more along the lines of American isolationism that we practiced for one hundred years, but a little bit higher level. Political isolation was the name I do believe. In which you isolate yourself politically (ie no foreign wars, no long treaties, no "foreign aid", etc. In this case add in no immigration) and stay open economically. We can still trade with the world without being involved in every nook and cranny of it. Works well enough for plenty of nations.
Ah yes, I can see this.

*Ahem* The United States hereby annouces that we will no longer let anyone in our country for whatever reason. We will allow tourists, but only if they agree to be tailed by police. We're withdrawing from everywhere.

Oh, but we still want your stuff.

And you actually think the world will NOT retaliate in some fashion? Bull. That isolationist period saw waves of immigration. You want to try and cut off the world, the world will cut off the US as well.

And now that's it's built (we do have the largest economy in the world) the need to allow immigration has faded.
And how do you plan to maintain that? Hmm? You think that we've invented all that we can? There's nothing left to discover? We will build no more?

Japan is currently faced with a simular problem. See, it DOESN'T really allow immigration. It's actually very hard to get into Japan (Unless you're female and willing to work at a bar). However, sadly, the birthrate is falling rapidly (as is America's, except the immigrant families) and Japan is now faced with the problem of how to keep the world's second largest economy growing and working. It's going to have to open up to more immigration.

We don't need a "message." Let the world and it's various nations do whatever they please; as long as they don't harm us we don't need to be involved.
Harder to demonize people you actually know. Very easy to protray a country as satanic if you've never met a person from there. And once you have done so, it's very, very easy to convince people to... say... fly airplanes into buildings.

I would suspect that the illegal immigrants would act as most any other human would when faced with an obstacle such as a fence that doesn't completely block their way, and go around them. Therefore, wouldn't it make sense for the fence's function to be to funnel these illegals into a narrow area, so that the border patrol would be able to pick them up quicker?

Voila, no violence. :D

Funnelling people into a tight, cramped zone where people with guns (Minutemen) are waiting for them... No violence you say? Your faith in humanity is touching.

Although if the real border patrol and not vigilantes were doing that, then maybe yes. But not for long anyway. There'd be an underground railroad six months later.

They could build this fence even cheaper if they used illegal immigrants.

You know, it just comes down to one simple thing: They are breaking they law of a nation. Its that simple. If I broke the law in any other country (such as trying to live there illegally), I would most likely be found, put into jail/fined/kicked out of the country/shot.

Now, I do believe that getting here legally REALLY needs to be streamlined and made so its not so cumbersom as it is now. Until that's done, wait and come here legally, just like many thousands of other people do each year. And while that's being fixed, get rid of the damn birthright citizenship. That would cut down on the number of pregnant immigrants going to hospitals with the kid already starting to pop out.

Not that I advocate their death or premenant(sp) dismemberment, but if someone is that stupid to try to climb over a barbwired/razor fence on someone's private property while trying to get into the country illegally, then they deserve to be cut up some. Not that the owner couldn't help bandage the wounds while helping the person back out of the country, but if they are going to do that, then they deserve what happens to them when they get cut.

And while that's being fixed, get rid of the damn birthright citizenship. That would cut down on the number of pregnant immigrants going to hospitals with the kid already starting to pop out.
You DO remember why that was put into place, do you not?

Just a question-how is this going to be in any way effective. There building it on there own property-I doubt they own the entire boarder. The Immigrents can just right round the fence. ANd, of course, they wouldn't be able to afford anything more than a little chain-wire fence.

Ah yes, I can see this.

*Ahem* The United States hereby annouces that we will no longer let anyone in our country for whatever reason. We will allow tourists, but only if they agree to be tailed by police. We're withdrawing from everywhere.

Oh, but we still want your stuff.

And you actually think the world will NOT retaliate in some fashion? Bull. That isolationist period saw waves of immigration. You want to try and cut off the world, the world will cut off the US as well.

Being as the US is the largest market in the world, something tells me countries are gonna have a tough time retaliating without losing the support of all their people who benefit greatly by being involved in the US economy. What do you think the nations of the world are going to do? What's the doom's day scenerio you had in mind? The world isn't able to do much. What, impose trade restrictions on us? We go to someone else. There is not a nation on the planet that wouldn't benefit from the United States trading with them. Some nations won't trade with us because of political reasons, that's fine. But we'd be able to find plenty that will trade will us regardless of our domestic policies.


And how do you plan to maintain that? Hmm? You think that we've invented all that we can? There's nothing left to discover? We will build no more?
Whoa, whoa now. Didn't you say earlier that immigrants build the nation? But now they are needed to maintain too? The value of immigrants seems to go up with every post you make. I don't think we've invented all we can. I don't think there's nothing left to discover. I don't think we will stop building. But I do think that the need for more people entering the nation has vanished or at least decreased to a point where it does not overtake other concerns.

Japan is currently faced with a simular problem. See, it DOESN'T really allow immigration. It's actually very hard to get into Japan (Unless you're female and willing to work at a bar). However, sadly, the birthrate is falling rapidly (as is America's, except the immigrant families) and Japan is now faced with the problem of how to keep the world's second largest economy growing and working. It's going to have to open up to more immigration.
Here's one question I have for all of you who think immigrants are so important. Why don't they improve their own nations? Do they suddenly mutate into hard working members of their community when they are no longer natives of that community? That seems, well unlikely at best. What nation that has a large rate of emigration is improving? Almost none. Why can't conditions be improved there? It's chock full of hard working, good people isn't it? Enough to keep the world's largest economy running right? Why can't they make their own country at least respectable? Because they aren't what makes our economy run.

Harder to demonize people you actually know. Very easy to protray a country as satanic if you've never met a person from there. And once you have done so, it's very, very easy to convince people to... say... fly airplanes into buildings.
Harder to fly those airplanes into building when you can't enter the country. A lot harder. We've been open to immigration and we still got planes flown into buildings. If we close immigration that becomes almost impossible because the terrorists would have to already be here. And there can only be so many of them. There's domestic terrorism, but they have that in any society where you are allowed to think for yourself and immigration bans won't change that figure significantly. The people they'd have to convince are people who live with these "satanic demons" and according to your theory, we wouldn't have a problem with people who know the people in our communities.

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4793160&nav=HMO6



Ah yes, free enterprise. That thing you can't handle when you whine about how immigrants "steal our jobs." Funny how competition and freedom are good when it benefits border-control freaks, and bad when it benefits Mexicans.
Really? Show me the minutemen, not just people showing up randomly at their rallies, complaining about the job situation. If all you can do is show me people from your rallies than that means any and all rallies that the black bloc attends are only as good as the black bloc themselves.

The monumental collapse of an economy entirely dependent on an underclass of laborers?
Except that would only happen if they mysteriously vanished. Otherwise, the economy would adjust. and people would get on with their lives.

Funnelling people into a tight, cramped zone where people with guns (Minutemen) are waiting for them... No violence you say? Your faith in humanity is touching.

Although if the real border patrol and not vigilantes were doing that, then maybe yes. But not for long anyway. There'd be an underground railroad six months later.

If you read what I wrote, you'd see that I said the border patrol, not the Minutemen. Also, if there was an "underground railroad" within 6 months, at least it'd be 6 months of effectiveness. Maybe during that time, the laws can be worked on so illegal immigration becomes unnecessary.

Racist fucks.

Being anti-immigrant is not racist, unless you're from Norway or something.

Fine, fix it. About time that was done.

But don't just ignore laws because you feel they are "unjust" or "broken".

That's what Rosa Parks did, and she's concidered a hero. That's what the whole civil rights movement was.

I'm not saying that crossing the boarder illegally makes you a hero or a freedom fighter, I'm just pointing out that "breaking the law is bad" is not a given truth.

They are saying that... it's just that when "tighten up the border" is heard, fingers go in ears, chanting "racist fucks" and nothing said after that is heard.

When did they say fix immigration laws so that it's easyer to get in? Because I have never heard the minutemen say such things.


Yes, lies. Where are the reports in the media about this? Where is the ACLU bringing lawsuits against the Minutemen? Seeing as how the Minuteman opponents would absolutely jump on the chance to "bring them down" everyting he posted was a falsehood, created to attempt to sway someones opinion by demonizing his opponents.

No, it happened. Just because it didn't make the national news doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And the ACLU didn't jump on it because a) no one called them b) it's not an ACLU issue, as it is not a court case in which a citizen's civil rights are being threatened by the government c) the minutemen weren't breaking any laws. Untill they threatened me.

I don't see where the ACLU came from all of a sudden.

And to the other guy, yes, I destroyed someone's property that they were using to harrass and intimidate people who were just trying to do an honest day's work for an honest day's dollar and feed their families. I drew a weapon only when threatened by 3 large men.

That's what Rosa Parks did, and she's concidered a hero. That's what the whole civil rights movement was.

I'm not saying that crossing the boarder illegally makes you a hero or a freedom fighter, I'm just pointing out that "breaking the law is bad" is not a given truth.



When did they say fix immigration laws so that it's easyer to get in? Because I have never heard the minutemen say such things.




No, it happened. Just because it didn't make the national news doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And the ACLU didn't jump on it because a) no one called them b) it's not an ACLU issue, as it is not a court case in which a citizen's civil rights are being threatened by the government c) the minutemen weren't breaking any laws. Untill they threatened me.

I don't see where the ACLU came from all of a sudden.

And to the other guy, yes, I destroyed someone's property that they were using to harrass and intimidate people who were just trying to do an honest day's work for an honest day's dollar and feed their families. I drew a weapon only when threatened by 3 large men.

So since these men were "harassing and intimidating" people that were breaking labor laws, you decided to harass and intimidate them. If you hadn't instigated the matter, you wouldn't have needed to draw your weapon. Was this on your property?

Granted, these men should have just called the police, but you should not have been involved.

Being as the US is the largest market in the world, something tells me countries are gonna have a tough time retaliating without losing the support of all their people who benefit greatly by being involved in the US economy. What do you think the nations of the world are going to do? What's the doom's day scenerio you had in mind? The world isn't able to do much. What, impose trade restrictions on us? We go to someone else. There is not a nation on the planet that wouldn't benefit from the United States trading with them. Some nations won't trade with us because of political reasons, that's fine. But we'd be able to find plenty that will trade will us regardless of our domestic policies.
You have more faith than I do, possibly because I can and do see China doing that (largest trade partner) and the EU. When you take those two out... That will hurt and hurt a lot.

Go study economics, it's amazing how inter-connected things are now. Then you realise just how vunerable the US is to, say, China getting a bug up its nose about this and deciding to, say, crash our currency. They can do that you know, right now, at any time. We kinda have to play nice.

Whoa, whoa now. Didn't you say earlier that immigrants build the nation? But now they are needed to maintain too? The value of immigrants seems to go up with every post you make. I don't think we've invented all we can. I don't think there's nothing left to discover. I don't think we will stop building. But I do think that the need for more people entering the nation has vanished or at least decreased to a point where it does not overtake other concerns.
Go back and read how most research at our universities, most of the technical PhDs, and most patents are now being awarded to immigrants or international students. So, yes, they ARE needed to maintain our edge. Such edge is very, very slim.

Here's one question I have for all of you who think immigrants are so important. Why don't they improve their own nations? Do they suddenly mutate into hard working members of their community when they are no longer natives of that community? That seems, well unlikely at best. What nation that has a large rate of emigration is improving? Almost none. Why can't conditions be improved there? It's chock full of hard working, good people isn't it? Enough to keep the world's largest economy running right? Why can't they make their own country at least respectable? Because they aren't what makes our economy run.
Strawman and a poorly constucted one at that.

Harder to fly those airplanes into building when you can't enter the country. A lot harder. We've been open to immigration and we still got planes flown into buildings. If we close immigration that becomes almost impossible because the terrorists would have to already be here. And there can only be so many of them. There's domestic terrorism, but they have that in any society where you are allowed to think for yourself and immigration bans won't change that figure significantly. The people they'd have to convince are people who live with these "satanic demons" and according to your theory, we wouldn't have a problem with people who know the people in our communities.
Considering US actions, I would say that it has been working because we have had only a handful of terrorist attacks in the US. As much as 9/11 was a shock, we have been very lucky in that regards and yes, I would say that part of it is that we were known internationally and viewed well internationally, part of that was from letters to the folks back home.

Hell, even Japan understands this idea.

Actually, I was mistaken. They only want to build "security fencing."

Which is even less effective than a wall.

What would be really effective is turning the US into a garrison state and stationing active military forces all along the border and shooting anyone that comes within a certain radius, using aerial assault forces to constantly patrol and gun down immigrants. Sadly, that's exactly what border control freaks wouldn't mind.


yea today its mexicans, tommorow Canadians

You do realise that Mexicans are being forced to migrate away from their homes due to U.S. sponsored reforms... The U.S. government knew the flood of undocumented workers would start after nafta (largely due to the inability of small Mexcian maise farmers to compete with big US agriculture). The U.S government just saw future migrant workers as a boon to the economy...
You do realize that if the US govt. were to stop subsidizing it's farms that it could undersell pretty much the entire world right? At least, until every country started up major tariffs.

"Perhaps a bit heartless, but that's the way it works when you stand up for the principles of racial purity. A government of the German people, for the German people, by the German people.
"I'm not particularly fond of German economic policy either, but that wasn't the topic of this thread."

Funny, that...
Except most people are for laxer immigration laws, once the illegal immigration is shut down. If it goes through legal channels we could control all of the other input, like drugs and full auto weapons, most of which enter this country from outside the borders. It has nothing to do with stopping people from immigrating and everything to do with restricting the flow of undesirable materials and violent people. As in, people with major violent criminal records. Not stuff like petty theft.

So since these men were "harassing and intimidating" people that were breaking labor laws, you decided to harass and intimidate them. If you hadn't instigated the matter, you wouldn't have needed to draw your weapon. Was this on your property?

Granted, these men should have just called the police, but you should not have been involved.

Calling the cops would have done nothing, the city set up the location as a day laborer pick up point. They even put up a sign.

They were trying to scare off contracters so they wouldn't pick up these people that need work and are willing to do so. They were trying to scare off the workers. They were all around being pricks. I'm not looking for your aproval here. I got myself involved because, as I said, these are just guys trying to feed their families by working instead of stealing of selling drugs or living off welfare. I have worked with a few of them back when I was doing construction. They are good men and don't deserve to have their livlyhood scared away by people who seem to have nothing better to do with their time but go after others.


The situation didn't involve the "minutemen" in the first place.

You have more faith than I do, possibly because I can and do see China doing that (largest trade partner) and the EU. When you take those two out... That will hurt and hurt a lot.
To whom does China sell the majority of its goods? I don't know about the EU, but I know China depends on us as much if not more than we depend on them. Furthermore, we could easily get around trade sactions should they be imposed. Countries do it all the time. If nation A won't trade with us but nation B will, then we have nation B buy goods from nation A and then we buy the goods from nation B, for a bit higher price but I think we can handle it. There are ways to get around restrictions, even a worldwide saction on us wouldn't be impossible to get around. Greed conquers all in our capitalistic world, and someone out there will get us what we need.

Go study economics, it's amazing how inter-connected things are now. Then you realise just how vunerable the US is to, say, China getting a bug up its nose about this and deciding to, say, crash our currency. They can do that you know, right now, at any time. We kinda have to play nice.
China wouldn't crash our currency because that would make all their investments (of which they have many) go kaput. They stand to lose too much to just one day "crash our currency." Plus, after paying back our debt in our now-worthless currency, we could always start a new currency fresh. Don't pretend like that isn't an option either.

Go back and read how most research at our universities, most of the technical PhDs, and most patents are now being awarded to immigrants or international students. So, yes, they ARE needed to maintain our edge. Such edge is very, very slim.
Again, I pose the question: Why do we have an edge then? Why aren't all these bright people improving their homeland? Why are they coming here instead? There must be something or it wouldn't make any sense for the world's best and brightest to just spontaneously appear here from other lands. I'm inclined to think there must be something about how the American system functions that causes this success, rather than just blind luck.

Strawman and a poorly constucted one at that.
M'kay, if that's how you see it. I'll rephrase it:
Why don't nations full of people who emigrate to the US (and make our economy become the world's largest) have good economies? Do their people refuse to work anywhere besides the United States?

Considering US actions, I would say that it has been working because we have had only a handful of terrorist attacks in the US. As much as 9/11 was a shock, we have been very lucky in that regards and yes, I would say that part of it is that we were known internationally and viewed well internationally, part of that was from letters to the folks back home.
Internationally we aren't all that well viewed. I'd say that's directly linked to our internationism. Noobody even cared about the USA when we were isolationist, they just traded with us and went on their way. Now we've got countries swearing to bring down the US, anti-US riots all across the globe, terror groups plotting their next attack, etc, etc. The link seems pretty undeniable IMHO. We go back to political isolation and I think our world standing will improve and we will have a return to at worst indifferent relationships will nations around the world.

Calling the cops would have done nothing, the city set up the location as a day laborer pick up point. They even put up a sign.

They were trying to scare off contracters so they wouldn't pick up these people that need work and are willing to do so. They were trying to scare off the workers. They were all around being pricks. I'm not looking for your aproval here. I got myself involved because, as I said, these are just guys trying to feed their families by working instead of stealing of selling drugs or living off welfare. I have worked with a few of them back when I was doing construction. They are good men and don't deserve to have their livlyhood scared away by people who seem to have nothing better to do with their time but go after others.


The situation didn't involve the "minutemen" in the first place.


And why wouldn't these people be able to go to Home Depot, Lowes, Wal-Mart, etc to get a better paying job than a day laborer? The places I listed will hire just about anyone. Oh wait, maybe because if they're illegal immigrants, they're not legally in the country. So you attacked a group of people that had nothing to do with you, and were photographing a potential crime. Good one. :rolleyes: If you had done that to me, I'd have gotten on my cell phone, called the cops, and had you arrested for assault and battery.

First off, fuck the "Minutemen." A bunch of morons. And cowards. A group of them was in my area, taking pictures of people picking up day laborers and threatening to send them to the IRS


Oh, and in this quote (the first one of yours I responded to), you said they WERE Minutemen. Which is it?

Minutemen: Give us a wall now, or we will be forced to build one ourselves without your money! This is an ultimatum!

Governmet: Um....../ignore

Being anti-immigrant is not racist, unless you're from Norway or something.
He did not say anti-immigrant is racist ... he said the minuitmen are

To whom does China sell the majority of its goods? I don't know about the EU, but I know China depends on us as much if not more than we depend on them. Furthermore, we could easily get around trade sactions should they be imposed. Countries do it all the time. If nation A won't trade with us but nation B will, then we have nation B buy goods from nation A and then we buy the goods from nation B, for a bit higher price but I think we can handle it. There are ways to get around restrictions, even a worldwide saction on us wouldn't be impossible to get around. Greed conquers all in our capitalistic world, and someone out there will get us what we need.
Oh I'm sure there is, North Korea is proof positive of that. Of course you're also talking rapid price increases, which the public won't put up with, but we can get around it.

China wouldn't crash our currency because that would make all their investments (of which they have many) go kaput. They stand to lose too much to just one day "crash our currency." Plus, after paying back our debt in our now-worthless currency, we could always start a new currency fresh. Don't pretend like that isn't an option either.
Politics doesn't operate on logic, this IS a worry in Washington right now, the fact that most of our debt is owned by other countries and the dollar continues to be strong because Asian central banks keep buying it. Sooner or later though...

As for your other senario... well, 1. The debt is how many thousands per every man woman and child in the US? We're gonna pay this how? Especially if no one wants out money. 2. We could start a fresh, but the markets tend to remember what you have done. It's not a matter of the fed saying, "Today we're switching from dollars to wingnuts," and the world markets strongly trading in wingnuts. Don't happen that way. Hell, it took the Euro how long to get going? And it was backed by the banks and goverments of the EU.

Again, I pose the question: Why do we have an edge then? Why aren't all these bright people improving their homeland? Why are they coming here instead? There must be something or it wouldn't make any sense for the world's best and brightest to just spontaneously appear here from other lands. I'm inclined to think there must be something about how the American system functions that causes this success, rather than just blind luck.
Not only did you not address the point, but you also assigned a factor that I never stated.

M'kay, if that's how you see it. I'll rephrase it:
Why don't nations full of people who emigrate to the US (and make our economy become the world's largest) have good economies? Do their people refuse to work anywhere besides the United States?
*sighs* Again with this? Ok.

Nevada is a desert, it is the driest state in the union, getting less than 7 inches of rain a year. The hot, high climate makes it very hard to grow anything. What does grow needs to be hardy, able to withstand roasting summers and very cold winters (Sometimes within the space of a week). People do grow things there of course, alfapha, hay, mellons, and potatoes are products from Nevada. You can have a backyard veggie garden if you so wish, but you're gonna have to work harder to get smaller yields.

Just over the Sierra Nevada lies California's central valley. Most of the fruits and veggies grown in the US orginate from there. It is MUCH easier to grow tomatoes, for example, in the central valley. Chances are, they'll come out bigger and juicer than their Nevadan couisns as well.

However, central California would be just as barren if it didn't have seeds. Nothing would grow if nothing was planted.

Now I could take seeds from the same place and plant them in California and in Nevada at the same time. Of the two plants, one would have a much eaiser time and give me a better yeild than the other.

But if I don't the seeds, I could have the best plot of land on the planet, but it would never give me my tomatoes.

Internationally we aren't all that well viewed. I'd say that's directly linked to our internationism. Noobody even cared about the USA when we were isolationist, they just traded with us and went on their way. Now we've got countries swearing to bring down the US, anti-US riots all across the globe, terror groups plotting their next attack, etc, etc. The link seems pretty undeniable IMHO. We go back to political isolation and I think our world standing will improve and we will have a return to at worst indifferent relationships will nations around the world.
You have a unique view of history, if you happen to think that was indeed the case. We were hardly indiffrent to the rest of the world and the rest of the world wasn't indifferent to the US.

You know, there is one element that has been conspicuously absent here(assuming I didn't overlook it in skimming the posts).

Everybody who supports leaving illegal immigrants alone portrays them as being simply good men who are trying to earn a living to support their familes. I agree that some of them, most of them, perhaps, are. What we're forgetting is that these men are, more often than not, being exploited.

Think about it. Daylaborers are more desireable to people who need the manual labor because they're extremely cheap, aren't covered by worker's comp, and can be picked up and discarded as necessary.

I'm talking from personal experience. I used to work on a crew made up partly of daylaborers, and I got paid a LOT more for my time than they did. If they had been in the country legally, they would have been entitled to certain minimum wages and rights. As it was, they weren't.

Think we can solve that problem by making minimum wage and comp laws applicable to illegal aliens? Guess again. As soon as you make daylaborers less cost-effective, you eliminate any incentive to hire them in the first place. Think about it from the point of view of an employer. If you have to give the same pay and benefits to a daylaborer as you would to any other employee, then suddenly you're going to start making sure you get reliable people whom you can get in touch with and have roots in the area. Suddenly these guys would have to compete on the same footing as everybody else, and in that scenario, they lose.

I didn't think so, but I know about as much about American property laws as I know about the eating habits of the mongol hordes.

Two things that, when you think about it, are really close. :p

Mines would solve that. Does anyone know where I can donate to help build this wall?

How cute, he supports murder. :rolleyes:
And yes, it IS murder, because the right to life only ends when another LIFE is threatened.

And why wouldn't these people be able to go to Home Depot, Lowes, Wal-Mart, etc to get a better paying job than a day laborer? The places I listed will hire just about anyone. Oh wait, maybe because if they're illegal immigrants, they're not legally in the country. So you attacked a group of people that had nothing to do with you, and were photographing a potential crime. Good one. :rolleyes: If you had done that to me, I'd have gotten on my cell phone, called the cops, and had you arrested for assault and battery.
Most of them don't speak english, and many are illegal. Both conditions prevent work at Wal-Mart or Home Depot.

And yes, I broken the private property of people taking pictures of a possible crime. And nothing you can say will convince me that I did wrong. As a note, I didn't attack anyone. Unless you count destroying the camera. But I did no physical harm to any person. When I was threatened, I threatened to defend myself. They left.


Oh, and in this quote (the first one of yours I responded to), you said they WERE Minutemen. Which is it?

They were minutemen, I never claimed they were not. What I ment was that people picking up day laborers didn't concern them at all.

And what if it wasn't an active shooting? What if instead an immigrant tried to climb these guys fences and got cut up by the coils of barbed wire? Then it's another death that these people CAN and DO use to point out how illegal immigration causes death.

Well duh Illegal Immigration causes death, you know how many bodies are lying out there in the deserts of New Mexico and Arizonia?

I'm tired of the Excuse
"Except for the Indians we're all Immigrants so we should let them in"

Guess what people, Every single person in part of the world is an Immigrant, every single one. You can't use that excuse anymore.

He did not say anti-immigrant is racist ... he said the minuitmen are
WRONG! Does anyone have the link to the tests that the Minutemen have to pass to join?

Most of them don't speak english, and many are illegal. Both conditions prevent work at Wal-Mart or Home Depot.

And yes, I broken the private property of people taking pictures of a possible crime. And nothing you can say will convince me that I did wrong. As a note, I didn't attack anyone. Unless you count destroying the camera. But I did no physical harm to any person. When I was threatened, I threatened to defend myself. They left.




They were minutemen, I never claimed they were not. What I ment was that people picking up day laborers didn't concern them at all.


So you are admitting that these people were commiting a crime by being here in the US illegally? Maybe if they followed US immigration laws and were here legally, they'd be able to get a better paying job working for someone who doesn't exploit them (illegal immigrants usually don't get worker's comp benefits, retirement benefits, minimum wage, job security, possibility for advancement, etc....).


You did destroy someone elses property, regardless of what they were doing (It's no different than someone smashing your computer because they don't agree with your posts on this board). What you did was illegal, and you did assault them as well (assault is a threatened or attempted physical or emotional attack), and you should have been arrested for your attacking them (you could have pressed charges on them as well, for their assault on you). Maybe nothing I can say will convince you that you committed a crime, but I bet the police and a jury of your peers would be able to.

I do have to admit though, that I misread your statement about the Minutemen's involvement.

And why wouldn't these people be able to go to Home Depot, Lowes, Wal-Mart, etc to get a better paying job than a day laborer?
If memeory serves, didn't Wal*Mart and HomeDepot both have trouble with using illegal immigrants for cleaning services?

Violence used to coerce a government toward a political means. TERRORISM!

Violence? You mean construction, right? Construction used to coerce a government toward a political means. ...constructionism???

Seriously, if some idiot throws himself onto a razorwire fence on my property (not that I have property, or a fence...) then it's sure not my fault.

So you are admitting that these people were commiting a crime by being here in the US illegally? Maybe if they followed US immigration laws and were here legally, they'd be able to get a better paying job working for someone who doesn't exploit them (illegal immigrants usually don't get worker's comp benefits, retirement benefits, minimum wage, job security, possibility for advancement, etc....).


You did destroy someone elses property, regardless of what they were doing (It's no different than someone smashing your computer because they don't agree with your posts on this board). What you did was illegal, and you did assault them as well (assault is a threatened or attempted physical or emotional attack), and you should have been arrested for your attacking them (you could have pressed charges on them as well, for their assault on you). Maybe nothing I can say will convince you that you committed a crime, but I bet the police and a jury of your peers would be able to.

I do have to admit though, that I misread your statement about the Minutemen's involvement.

Most of them have no way to immigrate here legally. They don't have the means or the knowledge. The process is far too long and complicated.

I realise I committed at least one crime. I broke the law. I know I could be arrested for what I did. What I said was you can't convince me that I did *wrong*

And your computer comparison is not apt. I'm not using my computer to scare away anyone's livelyhood.

One treat enjoyed by the Mongols was a sort of mixture of goat's milk with a small amount of blood.

Now yuo can say you know MORE about the Mongol Horde's eating habits! :p

Horses blood, to be precise.

Most of them have no way to immigrate here legally. They don't have the means or the knowledge. The process is far too long and complicated.

I realise I committed at least one crime. I broke the law. I know I could be arrested for what I did. What I said was you can't convince me that I did *wrong*

And your computer comparison is not apt. I'm not using my computer to scare away anyone's livelyhood.

Well, hopefully the lawmakers will take a look at the immigration laws, to see if there's a chance for it to be made easier. Until that time, these illegal immigrants should not be here.

I give up on trying to prove to you that you did wrong, so I won't mention any more about that. I do want to say though, that the computer comparison is apt, as intent means nothing in circumstances described.