NationStates Jolt Archive

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?
I drink underage. Am I an illegal?

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?

I guess some would call you an "illegal marijuana user" and shorten that to "illegal".

Anyway, I think things like this will eventually wind up like masturbation. Not frowned upon, but generally not done in front of children.

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?

Nope, just a criminal.

Illegal immigrants are still illegal, even if they aren't criminals.

...you gonna pass that joint, or just hold it? ;)

I drink underage. Am I an illegal?

Are you a female? If so, we can continue this discussion in my car.


:p

Nope, just a criminal.

Illegal immigrants are still illegal, even if they aren't criminals.

...you gonna pass that joint, or just hold it? ;)


So whats the difference between a "criminal" and an "illegal?"

If an illegal is "being criminal just by being here," would you agree that someone in violation of parole is also an illegal?

Are you a female? If so, we can continue this discussion in my car.


:p
Nope.

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?


Its a crypto-racist term, more or less.

Undocumented is more ethical. The best wording, in my opinion, is "without papers."

I don't get the connection. You are talking about illegal crimes, as smoking pot is, but the term "illegal" is just an abbreviation for illegal alien.

Nope.

In that case, yes you ARE an illegal. Go back to Mexico, where the drinking age is 3 years old, you drunk!
:)

Its a crypto-racist term, more or less.

Undocumented is more ethical. The best wording, in my opinion, is "without papers."

I'm in favor of "illegal immigrant."

Though "without papers" sounds appropriately Soviet Stalinist enough for me to appreciate it in terms of pure irony.

In that case, yes you ARE an illegal. Go back to Mexico, where the drinking age is 3 years old, you drunk!
:)
If I'm going back to anywhere, it's Krautland. They've got better beer, better water and Cherry Schnapps!

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?
Only if you're brown.

Meh. I suppose techinically they are 'illegal aliens', inasmuch as their status is not 'legal'.

I prefer not to be sidetracked with arguments about semantics however.

Only if you're brown.

Actually, I find this one is usually only if you are Mexican. Sort of a super-selective racism, if you will.

I'm in favor of "illegal immigrant."

Though "without papers" sounds appropriately Soviet Stalinist enough for me to appreciate it in terms of pure irony.


Its the phrase used in many european democracies.

It is the most accurate, since people who've come to live here without going through the proper channels really do live here without papers.

Papers (green card, &c.) are what determines whether or not they're deported or allowed to stay.

Actually, I find this one is usually only if you are Mexican. Sort of a super-selective racism, if you will.
No, pretty much all brown people, think about it.

Anybody with brown skin and a Spanish accent is considered to be Mexican unless they live in Florida, in which case they're Cubans who nobody really likes.

If you happen to be brown and have an Asian accent of any kind, then you are immediately branded as a “potential terrorist,” even if you’re a Hindu.

No, pretty much all brown people, think about it.

Anybody with brown skin and a Spanish accent is considered to be Mexican unless they live in Florida, in which case they're Cubans who nobody really likes.

If you happen to be brown and have an Asian accent of any kind, then you are immediately branded as a “potential terrorist,” even if you’re a Hindu.

I sometimes feel racist that I can't tell the difference between the accents of many of my foreign coworkers...a guy I thought was Egyptian turned out to be Armenian...I thought another guy was Pakistani, turns out he's Iranian...

I wish I had the money to travel more...

I sometimes feel racist that I can't tell the difference between the accents of many of my foreign coworkers...a guy I thought was Egyptian turned out to be Armenian...I thought another guy was Pakistani, turns out he's Iranian...
Hey, relax. I’m sure they understand and aren’t really going to be incredibly offended as long as you throw in a quick apology or something.
When I’m not sure of somebody’s ethnicity, I just don’t bring it up and wait for them to mention it if they ever do. In the end, it really isn’t all that important.
I wish I had the money to travel more...
You really think a bit of traveling would help you with accents?

Hey, relax. I’m sure they understand and aren’t really going to be incredibly offended as long as you throw in a quick apology or something.
When I’m not sure of somebody’s ethnicity, I just don’t bring it up and wait for them to mention it if they ever do. In the end, it really isn’t all that important.

Fortunately, I never raise the issue, I just modify my personal mental dossier on each guy, so if I hear something important happened where they live (once I know for sure), I can ask about it.


You really think a bit of traveling would help you with accents?
[/QUOTE]

I think it could. When I lived in Japan a few years ago, I worked enough with various Asian languages that I can slightly better differentiate accents now.

Well, maybe I just want an excuse to travel...

No, pretty much all brown people, think about it.

Anybody with brown skin and a Spanish accent is considered to be Mexican unless they live in Florida, in which case they're Cubans who nobody really likes.

If you happen to be brown and have an Asian accent of any kind, then you are immediately branded as a “potential terrorist,” even if you’re a Hindu.

Ah well, I suppose it is where you live that decides that.

My neighborhood has plenty of non-hispanic 'illegals'. (Lazy bastards the lot of them, why they can't get some hard working hispanics is beyond me ;) ). But most of the "OMFG I hate teh iillegalzs" is centered on the mexicans.

Prolly different if you live elsewhere.

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?

It depends. What color are you?

It depends. What color are you?
Beat you to it.:) But then I think about it.:(
Racism is one of those few things I assign what could be considered to be morality to, probably because it’s one of the most irrational, self-defeating concepts known to man.

You joke about it, but these illegal immigrants are invading our country and blatantly stealing jobs from honest, hardworking Americans. Besides, they come from another country, so they might be terrorists. This is a serious issue that needs to be addressed seriously very soon. I believe that we should wall off our borders. Not just the Mexican border, because we receive immigrants from Asia as well. We must enclose the entire United States. Four walls and a ceiling. Leave several airholes guarded by military garrisons with shoot-to-kill orders. Only then will our country be safe from illegals and terrorists, like Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kaczynski.

Ah well, I suppose it is where you live that decides that.

My neighborhood has plenty of non-hispanic 'illegals'. (Lazy bastards the lot of them, why they can't get some hard working hispanics is beyond me ;) ). But most of the "OMFG I hate teh iillegalzs" is centered on the mexicans.

Prolly different if you live elsewhere.
The only ones bringing race or national origin seems to be you, and the other open border types.

I am all for legal immigration, from Mexico, Brazil, Armenia, anywhere.

I am against illegal immigration, from Mexico, Brazil, Armenia, anywhere.

When you play the race card, all you are doing is showing you have no valid argument and have to resort to demonizing your opponent.

The only ones bringing race or national origin seems to be you, and the other open border types.

I am all for legal immigration, from Mexico, Brazil, Armenia, anywhere.

I am against illegal immigration, from Mexico, Brazil, Armenia, anywhere.

When you play the race card, all you are doing is showing you have no valid argument and have to resort to demonizing your opponent.

Yup, guilty as charged, I am a total racist I suppose.

I look around this country and I see a huge number of fat, useless, lazy whinging slobs who think their god given right is a 5000 sq. ft. house and three SUVs: despite the fact that the only unique thing they've ever produced is a new and interesting smell from their armpits.

Most of the mexicans I know are happy hardworking people. (Who, by the way are rebuilding new orleans).

Americans are lazy.

Its a crypto-racist term, more or less.

Undocumented is more ethical. The best wording, in my opinion, is "without papers."
how is it racist?

The only ones bringing race or national origin seems to be you, and the other open border types.

so we're making up the calls for a great big wall to be built to keep out the mexicans? the panic and grumbling about an 'invasion' and the 'reconquista' is all in our heads?

I am all for legal immigration, from Mexico, Brazil, Armenia, anywhere.

I am against illegal immigration, from Mexico, Brazil, Armenia, anywhere.

ah, excellent. then i'm sure you must be in favor of granting immediate amnesty to everyone currently here, and drastically lowering the barriers to freedom of movement so that all peaceful people can come and go as they please, yes? welcome to the club.

Most of the mexicans I know are happy hardworking people.

and by that virtue alone they should become American citizens?

Schrandtopia']and by that virtue alone they should become American citizens?

Can you think of a better qualification?

Can you think of a better qualification?

the consent of the American government for starters

Schrandtopia']the consent of the American government for starters

Not like that was a dispositive factor last time this was an issue......

you can't break the law - we let people slide on this one and its the start of a slippery slope

immigration laws need reform and reform will mean turning a good number of them away

Schrandtopia']you can't break the law - we let people slide on this one and its the start of a slippery slope

immigration laws need reform and reform will mean turning a good number of them away

Well Jawhol mein furher,

I expect you to report for sanwich duty tommorow. And I don't want to hear any shit about how I like it made.

hey how about this - I'll make a point and you try to refute it - when you can't do that anymore I win

now explain to me why America won't suffer when we don't enforce our laws

Schrandtopia']
now explain to me why America won't suffer when we don't enforce our laws

Because that ship sailed?

Really, the only reason why you are scared that mexicans are coming to this country is because they are less crap than you are. Be less crap, and they won't "took yur jab". Otherwise, why sweat it?

It's not like they are joining the massive ranks of the fake disabled, or 'senior citizens'; people who really don't contribute. So why the hate?

Because that ship sailed?

and it can never come back?

Really, the only reason why you are scared that mexicans are coming to this country is because they are less crap than you are.

or, perhaps not.

Be less crap, and they won't "took yur jab".

no

Otherwise, why sweat it?

becuase I like the rule of law

It's not like they are joining the massive ranks of the fake disabled, or 'senior citizens'; people who really don't contribute.

never said they were

So why the hate?

because they broke the law

Schrandtopia']
no

Sums it up really,

Schrandtopia']becuase I like the rule of law


No you don't. No-one does. I've never met anyone who turned themselves in for speeding or illegally parking.

Sums it up really,

it really does - I have no hate for the Mexican race, immigrants are more than welcome to apply for my job I just don't want them breaking the law - is that so much to ask?

No you don't. No-one does. I've never met anyone who turned themselves in for speeding or illegally parking.

what about people who don't park illegally?

Schrandtopia']
what about people who don't park illegally?

Or speed.

Or speed.

Because compared to things like murder and rape, or even DUI, most traffic violations are pretty small fries. Especially speeding (within reason) and parking violations without a doubt. Running a red light (esp. on a busy street) or DUI are both much more major. While I doubt that someone would turn themselves in on the former, many will do their best to avoid the latter.

Because compared to things like murder and rape, or even DUI, most traffic violations are pretty small fries. Especially speeding (within reason) and parking violations without a doubt. Running a red light (esp. on a busy street) or DUI are both much more major. While I doubt that someone would turn themselves in on the former, many will do their best to avoid the latter.

What, like the crime of being here, and just being here?

That's obviously a major offence against the person!

What, like the crime of being here, and just being here?

That's obviously a major offence against the person!

When there are people who are trying to move here from Pakistan and China to escape oppression and have to wait in line, while Mexicans get to come in without waiting? It's not a major offence to me. It's a major offence to people who are legitimately being oppressed by their own governments.

When there are people who are trying to move here from Pakistan and China to escape oppression and have to wait in line, while Mexicans get to come in without waiting? It's not a major offence to me. It's a major offence to people who are legitimately being oppressed by their own governments.

Rubbish. Utter Rubbish.

I understand that from your lazy self indulgent perspective that people who are 'persected' are more deserving of a place in our society. But that's just crap. And the last thing the US needs is more whingers.

I want people who are happy to come here and do a job because they want to be here, not because they are escaping their own wretched little intramural squables, which they will inevitably transport with them and make them an issue.

Frankly, as far as I am concerened, there should be no political immigrants anymore. They are just trouble. Look at cuba.

Rubbish. Utter Rubbish.

I understand that from your lazy self indulgent perspective that people who are 'persected' are more deserving of a place in our society. But that's just crap. And the last thing the US needs is more whingers.

I want people who are happy to come here and do a job because they want to be here, not because they are escaping their own wretched little intramural squables, which they will inevitably transport with them and make them an issue.

Frankly, as far as I am concerened, there should be no political immigrants anymore. They are just trouble. Look at cuba.

I'd respond, but I'm not entirely certain whether you're serious or not.

I'd respond, but I'm not entirely certain whether you're serious or not.

No, I'm serious.

I say complete freedom for economic immigrants. Political refugees should stay at home.

It's not our job to be a halfway house for the rest of the world.

No, I'm serious.

I say complete freedom for economic immigrants. Political refugees should stay at home.

It's not our job to be a halfway house for the rest of the world.

Well, we've got plenty of illegal Chinese and Mexicans as it is. So why not close the border behind them, then?

I got it! Bush's IQ is 42! Why? Because it is totally lame to reply with that overdone reference so it must be true!

I got it! Bush's IQ is 42! Why? Because it is totally lame to reply with that overdone reference so it must be true!

*Pins the Parliamentary Medal of Randomness on Posi's prestine NS uniform.*

Well, we've got plenty of illegal Chinese and Mexicans as it is. So why not close the border behind them, then?

Because we don't have enough.

Why do you think our economy grows so fast?

I'll clue you in, it's not the fat shits that can't mow their own lawn.

Because we don't have enough.

Why do you think our economy grows so fast?

I'll clue you in, it's not the fat shits that can't mow their own lawn.

In my day, you paid your neighbor's son to do that. Have they unionized or something?

And what do you propose that we do with all of these illegals once the jobs they perform are done by machines?

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?
You certainly are a criminal, and should receive every penalty in the law. Just as illegal immigrants should receive every penalty in the law.

I drink underage. Am I an illegal?

youre under 5?!?!

You certainly are a criminal, and should receive every penalty in the law. Just as illegal immigrants should receive every penalty in the law.

But that's dodging the question. I wasn't asking if I'm a criminal. Am I an "illegal?"

Its a crypto-racist term, more or less.

Undocumented is more ethical. The best wording, in my opinion, is "without papers."
How is calling someone who is in the United States without following its laws for entry "illegal" as short for "illegal immigrant" "crypto-racist"? If you've come to the United States in a matter that runs contrary to our laws, you're here illegally. Hence, you're an "illegal immigrant" and you should be deported.

How is calling someone who is in the United States without following its laws for entry "illegal" as short for "illegal immigrant" "crypto-racist"? If you've come to the United States in a matter that runs contrary to our laws, you're here illegally. Hence, you're an "illegal immigrant" and you should be deported.


Because there is no precedent of calling law-breakers "illegals." It implies something beyond "they have broken the law."

Its one hair shy of calling them beaners or spics or wetbacks.

You certainly are a criminal, and should receive every penalty in the law. Just as illegal immigrants should receive every penalty in the law.

Nice dodge. :rolleyes:

Because there is no precedent of calling law-breakers "illegals." It implies something beyond "they have broken the law."

Its one hair shy of calling them beaners or spics or wetbacks.

So opposing a criminal action and using a shortened term is racist?

I suppose that big fence that Guatemala built along it's border w/ Mexico is because they hate "brown people" too, right?

http://varifrank.com/archives/2006/04/it_cant_be_done_1.php

Because there is no precedent of calling law-breakers "illegals." It implies something beyond "they have broken the law."

Its one hair shy of calling them beaners or spics or wetbacks.

'Illegal' is a term derived from the terms 'illegal immigrant' or 'illegal alien'. It's as racist to refer to 'illegal immigrants/aliens' as 'illegals' as it is ignorant to refer to post-traumatic stress disorder as PTSD.

So calling opponents of a criminal action is racist?

I suppose that big fence that Guatemala built along it's border w/ Mexico is because they hate "brown people" too, right?

http://varifrank.com/archives/2006/04/it_cant_be_done_1.php

Do you want to try editing your first sentence so that it makes sense?

'Illegal' is a term derived from the terms 'illegal immigrant' or 'illegal alien'. It's as racist to refer to 'illegal immigrants/aliens' as 'illegals' as it is ignorant to refer to post-traumatic stress disorder as PTSD.

Um. PTSD is a scientific term. "Illegals" isn't.

Nice try though.

Do you want to try editing your first sentence so that it makes sense?

Done.

Um. PTSD is a scientific term. "Illegals" isn't.

Nice try though.

No. Post-traumatic stress disorder is a scientific term. PTSD is a shortening of it.

Just as illegal immigrant or illegal alien is a legal term. Illegal is a shortening of it.

Its a crypto-racist term, more or less.

Undocumented is more ethical. The best wording, in my opinion, is "without papers."
You mean the phrase that was shortened to "wops" to refer to Italians working in the US illegaly? Does that mean your racist towards Italians?

Well, if we all want to improve our racist vernacular, I suggest TCNs.

No. Post-traumatic stress disorder is a scientific term. PTSD is a shortening of it.

Just as illegal immigrant or illegal alien is a legal term. Illegal is a shortening of it.
contractions are ignorant? I hope the CIA and FBI don't take exception to my ignorance...

No. Post-traumatic stress disorder is a scientific term. PTSD is a shortening of it.

Just as illegal immigrant or illegal alien is a legal term. Illegal is a shortening of it.

Wrong on both counts.

"Undocumented alien" is the legal term.

You mean the phrase that was shortened to "wops" to refer to Italians working in the US illegaly? Does that mean your racist towards Italians?
:eek: that's where that comes from! i love general, so much to learn.

Wrong on both counts.

"Undocumented alien" is the legal term.

Trust the law to constantly come up with new and more inane words for the same things....

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?
It's short for "illegal alien".

Trust the law to constantly come up with new and more inane words for the same things....

First you claim to cite the law, then you ridicule it when it appears to turn against you. Speaking of coming up with new and more inane things ....

It's short for "illegal alien".

Well, maybe I could be an illegal pot smoker? Shortened to illegal.

First you claim to cite the law, then you ridicule it when it appears to turn against you. Speaking of coming up with new and more inane things ....

I'm just like the law!

:eek:

I'm not surprised at all by that....

Well, maybe I could be an illegal pot smoker? Shortened to illegal.
Whatever. You want to be an illegal, you're an illegal. I break the law now and then, but I try to stay legal. Can I be refered to as a legal so the cops won't fuck with me?

Whatever. You want to be an illegal, you're an illegal. I break the law now and then, but I try to stay legal. Can I be refered to as a legal so the cops won't fuck with me?

I have a feeling the cops will fuck w/ you no matter what you're reffered as. :)

Whatever. You want to be an illegal, you're an illegal. I break the law now and then, but I try to stay legal. Can I be refered to as a legal so the cops won't fuck with me?

Yes.

But I'm not sure they'll be fooled so easily.

Yes.

But I'm not sure they'll be fooled so easily.
Well then we should hang out. That way if the cops fuck with me I can point at you, yell "look, an illegal!" and escape while they're arresting you.

Well then we should hang out. That way if the cops fuck with me I can point at you, yell "look, an illegal!" and escape while they're arresting you.

Sure! But they won't arrest me. They'll give me a job, one of the stolen ones they confiscate and hand out to people like me. I'll be living the high life at $2.75 an hour, gringo!

Yes, you are an illegal... an illegal drug user.

Although just like immigration, I could care less and actually urge you to continue your practice of breaking the law.

no.

you're a citizen-criminal.

hehe

Why do we have to use terms that make people feel good? Use the correct term, Illegal (breaking the law of the land) Immigrant (moving from one place to another). Sayong we should give amnesty to these (heaven forbid) ILLEGALS would be like someone giving a theif, who just broke into your house, the spare room to live in. Also, I think a requirenment for citizenship is the ability to speak fluent english. This would prevent (uh-oh, I'm racist) ILLEGALS from becoming citizens even if we did grant amnesty!

Why do we have to use terms that make people feel good? Use the correct term, Illegal (breaking the law of the land) Immigrant (moving from one place to another). Sayong we should give amnesty to these (heaven forbid) ILLEGALS would be like someone giving a theif, who just broke into your house, the spare room to live in. Also, I think a requirenment for citizenship is the ability to speak fluent english. This would prevent (uh-oh, I'm racist) ILLEGALS from becoming citizens even if we did grant amnesty!
hm. well i don't know about the rest of the workforce, but you'd have a helluva lot fewer physicists in the US that way. of course, that would mean that the US wouldn't have blown up Hiroshima and Nagasaki, what with Einstein still being in Germany and all.

Why do we have to use terms that make people feel good? Use the correct term, Illegal (breaking the law of the land) Immigrant (moving from one place to another). Sayong we should give amnesty to these (heaven forbid) ILLEGALS would be like someone giving a theif, who just broke into your house, the spare room to live in. Also, I think a requirenment for citizenship is the ability to speak fluent english. This would prevent (uh-oh, I'm racist) ILLEGALS from becoming citizens even if we did grant amnesty!

Oh, don't worry. there is nothing racist about assuming that all undocumented aliens are unable to speak fluent english. :rolleyes:

So opposing a criminal action and using a shortened term is racist?

I suppose that big fence that Guatemala built along it's border w/ Mexico is because they hate "brown people" too, right?

http://varifrank.com/archives/2006/04/it_cant_be_done_1.php


Opposing criminal action and refusing to use decent words are not one and the same, you can certainly do one without the other.

It's a common argument: illegal immigrants are termed "illegals" because they violate the law.

So here's my question.

I smoke pot. Am I an illegal?

No, you are someone who occassionally breaks the law.

An illegal immigrant is one who, by their presence, is in a constant state of breaking the law...thus you can shorten the description to "illegal".

:D How hard is that to comprehend :D

No. Post-traumatic stress disorder is a scientific term. PTSD is a shortening of it.

Just as illegal immigrant or illegal alien is a legal term. Illegal is a shortening of it.


You're completely and entirely wrong, maybe even being dishonet.

PTSD is not a "shortening" of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, it is an initilaism formed from the initial letters of those four words.

If you want to call 'illegal aliens' "IAs," by all means do so, there is not a strong, pejorative, malicious connotation in the initials "IA" as there is in "illegal" being misused as a noun.

No, you are someone who occassionally breaks the law.

An illegal immigrant is one who, by their presence, is in a constant state of breaking the law...thus you can shorten the description to "illegal".

:D How hard is that to comprehend :D


Another knuckledragging dodge.

The fact is that the term has been coined for use to describe "dirty wetbacks" and not applied to people from other countries living without papers.

hm. well i don't know about the rest of the workforce, but you'd have a helluva lot fewer physicists in the US that way. of course, that would mean that the US wouldn't have blown up Hiroshima and Nagasaki, what with Einstein still being in Germany and all.

I think Einstein knew English. Besides, there are special programs and incentives for the highly skilled to immigrate to the U.S.

Oh, don't worry. there is nothing racist about assuming that all undocumented aliens are unable to speak fluent english. :rolleyes:

I am sorry. I should have stated a large percentage, as evident from many of the immigration rallies where American reporters have difficulty interviewing marchers who only speak spanish.

Well considering I don't call them "Illegals" I wouldn't think so.

They are "Illegal Immigrants" and I think they key term there is immigrant. You are a "Illegal Drug User" although I don't shorten my terminology so No, you shouldn't be called that.

Actually, I find this one is usually only if you are Mexican. Sort of a super-selective racism, if you will.
I think every nation south of The border counts, Peru, , Brazil, Panama, (Others I can't spell).

Another knuckledragging dodge.

The fact is that the term has been coined for use to describe "dirty wetbacks" and not applied to people from other countries living without papers.
No, that is how you want the word to apply, because it helps demonize those who use it.

"Illegal" refers to anyone in the US illegally. European, Asian, African, Central/South American, North American, Australian, or Antartican doesn't matter.

Very much like homophobic now refers to anyone who doesn't accept homosexuals rather than the original meaning of someone who had an unrational fear of them.

No, that is how you want the word to apply, because it helps demonize those who use it.

"Illegal" refers to anyone in the US illegally. European, Asian, African, Central/South American, North American, Australian, or Antartican doesn't matter.

Very much like homophobic now refers to anyone who doesn't accept homosexuals rather than the original meaning of someone who had an unrational fear of them.


You're obviously a close student of language, Dr. Unrational.

That aside, the term was coined in the US to refer to mexicans, to dehumanize them, as a slur.

It may now be used to refer to other people in the US illegally, much in the way people use "******" to refer to people with dark skin and "sand ******" to refer to people with dark skin from the middle east.

Not by people thoughtful or decent about their language, however.

You're obviously a close student of language, Dr. Unrational.

That aside, the term was coined in the US to refer to mexicans, to dehumanize them, as a slur.

It may now be used to refer to other people in the US illegally, much in the way people use "******" to refer to people with dark skin and "sand ******" to refer to people with dark skin from the middle east.

Not by people thoughtful or decent about their language, however.

Of course. Because such people are sub-human.

The only difference between your apparent hatred and their alleged hatred is that yours is politically correct.

The term used to de-humanize Mexicans is 'spic'. Not 'illegal'.

You're obviously a close student of language, Dr. Unrational.

That aside, the term was coined in the US to refer to mexicans, to dehumanize them, as a slur.

It may now be used to refer to other people in the US illegally, much in the way people use "******" to refer to people with dark skin and "sand ******" to refer to people with dark skin from the middle east.

Not by people thoughtful or decent about their language, however.
Again, that is the definition/meaning YOU want to assign to the word "illegal".
Because you have no other argument but to demonize your opponents.

"Illegal" has no race, other than what YOU put into it. Careful, your closet bigotry is showing.

You're obviously a close student of language, Dr. Unrational.

That aside, the term was coined in the US to refer to mexicans, to dehumanize them, as a slur.

It may now be used to refer to other people in the US illegally, much in the way people use "******" to refer to people with dark skin and "sand ******" to refer to people with dark skin from the middle east.

Not by people thoughtful or decent about their language, however.

And you have evidence of this? Or is it just more of your wishful thinking? What is "******" short for? How about "sand ******"?

As you seem to be the one argueing the "actual" usages of language, why don't you enlighten us.

Do you still want to use the term "without papers"?

And you have evidence of this? Or is it just more of your wishful thinking? What is "******" short for? How about "sand ******"?

As you seem to be the one argueing the "actual" usages of language, why don't you enlighten us.

Do you still want to use the term "without papers"?

"Illegal" isn't a legitimate shortening of "illegal immigrant" because it isnt a noun.

It is an adjective, used as a noun in a very pejorative sense.


Of course, 'living without papers' is the clearest and most civilized term.

"Illegal" isn't a legitimate shortening of "illegal immigrant" because it isnt a noun.

It is an adjective, used as a noun in a very pejorative sense.


Of course, 'living without papers' is the clearest and most civilized term.
and most sugar coated one as well.
You won't accept the use of "illegal" to mean someone who entered this country by illegal means, that's fine. Keep your head in the sand.

I, and a majority, will use the term.

and most sugar coated one as well.
You won't accept the use of "illegal" to mean someone who entered this country by illegal means, that's fine. Keep your head in the sand.

I, and a majority, will use the term.
How is that an example of keeping their head in the sand? the person you quoted was not ignoring anything just pointed out how it was incorrect word usage

How is that an example of keeping their head in the sand? the person you quoted was not ignoring anything just pointed out how it was incorrect word usage
Nothing improper about it. Because of usage, "illegal" means what it does. Choosing to ignore that usage doesn't change the meaning.
Trying to sugar coat something to be "politically correct" doesn't change the meaning either.

Nothing improper about it. Because of usage, "illegal" means what it does. Choosing to ignore that usage doesn't change the meaning.
Trying to sugar coat something to be "politically correct" doesn't change the meaning either.

So you are saying that an "illegal" person is, inherently, against the law?

Not just a person doing a criminal act... but illegal? to exist.

It's not sugar-coating... and if it is, perhaps that's just because people like yourself enjoy throwing salt on everything.

Ihre papiere, bitte!

I never thought I'd see the day. Frankly, I am now ashamed to be an english speaking person.

Illegal is an adjective, and I will resist vigourously any effort to treat it as a noun. The proper term is illegal immigrant. Besides you're all splitting hairs. This could be a proper discussion about the illegal immigrant problem in this country, and it has instead evolved into an Edwin Newman-like dissection and critique of the use of English slang, while ignoring the root problem itself.

But then, that is so much easier than addressing issues.

Illegal is an adjective, and I will resist vigourously any effort to treat it as a noun. The proper term is illegal immigrant. Besides you're all splitting hairs. This could be a proper discussion about the illegal immigrant problem in this country, and it has instead evolved into an Edwin Newman-like dissection and critique of the use of English slang, while ignoring the root problem itself.

But then, that is so much easier than addressing issues.

This thread IS a proper discussion about the use of the word "illegal" in a noun format, and specifically both the inconsistency of it's use and the ulterior motive behind it.

If you want to actually talk about illegal immigration, you'll just have to pick any of the other 103,156,994 threads on the subject. It was from there that I kept seeing "illegals" and it bugged me enough to dissect the topic in it's very own special thread.

Illegal is an adjective, and I will resist vigourously any effort to treat it as a noun. The proper term is illegal immigrant. Besides you're all splitting hairs. This could be a proper discussion about the illegal immigrant problem in this country, and it has instead evolved into an Edwin Newman-like dissection and critique of the use of English slang, while ignoring the root problem itself.

But then, that is so much easier than addressing issues.

Yes, I believe that I pointed out that arguing about the semantics is pointless earlier in this thread.

As to issues: it's not like you are volunteering to make my sandwiches, so probably you are better off focusing on the above mentioned semantics.

So you are saying that an "illegal" person is, inherently, against the law?

Not just a person doing a criminal act... but illegal? to exist.

It's not sugar-coating... and if it is, perhaps that's just because people like yourself enjoy throwing salt on everything.

Not really.

An illegal is someone who is breaking the law of the land, in the present tense. They can become legal, or legal immigrants if you prefer, by leaving america, re-applying for immigration, and coming in with papers.

I don't see the big issue. I use illegal to describe illegal immigrants. I don't broadly use it against mexicans alone. I don't believe I've ever said the word as a noun, when not talking about illegal immigration. Pretty much everyone understands what I mean by it, and while it has a negative connotation, there is no racist one, other than the fact that as a californian, the vast majority of illegals I deal with are mexicans.

Again, it seems quite semantic. Calling them undocumented aliens will change nothing, as compared to calling them illegals. Its just incredibly nit-picky, and seems like something someone with too much time on their hands thinks up.

Not really.

An illegal is someone who is breaking the law of the land, in the present tense. They can become legal, or legal immigrants if you prefer, by leaving america, re-applying for immigration, and coming in with papers.

I don't see the big issue. I use illegal to describe illegal immigrants. I don't broadly use it against mexicans alone. I don't believe I've ever said the word as a noun, when not talking about illegal immigration. Pretty much everyone understands what I mean by it, and while it has a negative connotation, there is no racist one, other than the fact that as a californian, the vast majority of illegals I deal with are mexicans.

Again, it seems quite semantic. Calling them undocumented aliens will change nothing, as compared to calling them illegals. Its just incredibly nit-picky, and seems like something someone with too much time on their hands thinks up.

Well look, to you and the rest complaining about 'semantics', if its stupid and pointless and petty and a waste of time to discuss "semantics," why are you bothering typing in this thread, on this forum? Shouldn't you do something more productive with your obviously more valuable time and energy?

And yes, I do prefer the term "illegal immigrant." Everyone understands what I mean by that, plus I don't look like a lazy jackoff who can't be bothered to use complete phrases.

And yes indeed, the term "illegals" is used by racists in venues like this where calling them more outright racist terms is prohibited both by moderation and by political fallout. It's the polite racists term - still slang, still implies dehumanization, but can seem like an innocent abbreviation for the typing-complete-phrases-challenged.

And it's damned easy to go from "the vast majority of illegals I deal with are Mexicans" to "the vast majority of Mexicans I deal with are illegals." People do that all the time, too - just assume someone is an illegal immigrant. My racist grandfather does that all the time. When he sees a lot of dark faces, he immediately assumes the nation is being "taken over" by "illegals." He doesn't KNOW they're illegal immigrants, doesn't talk to 'em, certainly doesn't check their papers... but oh yes, he assumes it. Them "illegals." Bugs the fuck out of me, and since he's not the only one like him, this thread IS relevant, its NOT just nit-picky.

Well look, to you and the rest complaining about 'semantics', if its stupid and pointless and petty and a waste of time to discuss "semantics," why are you bothering typing in this thread, on this forum? Shouldn't you do something more productive with your obviously more valuable time and energy?

And yes, I do prefer the term "illegal immigrant." Everyone understands what I mean by that, plus I don't look like a lazy jackoff who can't be bothered to use complete phrases.

And yes indeed, the term "illegals" is used by racists in venues like this where calling them more outright racist terms is prohibited both by moderation and by political fallout. It's the polite racists term - still slang, still implies dehumanization, but can seem like an innocent abbreviation for the typing-complete-phrases-challenged.

And it's damned easy to go from "the vast majority of illegals I deal with are Mexicans" to "the vast majority of Mexicans I deal with are illegals." People do that all the time, too - just assume someone is an illegal immigrant. My racist grandfather does that all the time. When he sees a lot of dark faces, he immediately assumes the nation is being "taken over" by "illegals." He doesn't KNOW they're illegal immigrants, doesn't talk to 'em, certainly doesn't check their papers... but oh yes, he assumes it. Them "illegals." Bugs the fuck out of me, and since he's not the only one like him, this thread IS relevant, its NOT just nit-picky.

True, but I like you too much to ignore your threads, SB.

You must hang out with very picky people. Most of the people I know use all the contractions, etc, that we can. Sure, san francisco is more accurate, but around here, everyone knows what "the city" means, even though it could be any city.

Racists might use it, but that doesn't make it a racist term. Most people who say it really just mean illegal immigrants, even if alot of them, the first thing that comes to mind is mexicans(Or possibly something else, if you say have alot of chinese, etc in your neighborhood)

"And it's damned easy to go from "the vast majority of illegals I deal with are Mexicans" to "the vast majority of Mexicans I deal with are illegals."

For someone who is racist or has racist subconscious thoughts, I suppose.

There are a crapload of mexicans here in cali. My school may actually have more mexicans than whites, but I don't have any numbers. I know very few people that are illegal, or have illegal parents, etc.

My point is, just because the majority of a small group are mexican, it doesn't mean that small group is the majority of mexicans.

I have no problems with mexicans. For a large part of my life, my brothers best friend was a mexican, and we considered him one of the family. I've met numerous cool mexicans, including the one guy who bought me and my friends beers at a local pool hall, just to be cool(even better, we are underage, so score!)

I think your real problem is with a large number of people, who are against illegal immigration, who are also racist. But don't assume everyone is like that, or that just because they use the term illegal and mean mexican, that everyone does. SB, you should know by now that extremists are the ones you hear, and they can mislead you.

I think your real problem is with a large number of people, who are against illegal immigration, who are also racist.

Yes.

And I don't think it's a coincidence that when they talk about the subject they refer to illegal immigrants as "illegals." The word leaves out the "immigrant" part but keeps the "illegal" part - so when you say someone is "an illegal" what are you saying? Just their criminality. Not even the part about them being human - you might as well be referring to contraband. It's de-humanizing. May be subtle, and it is indeed used by non-racists... but it's there.

Words and thought are very closely related, they shape each other, and when you get to thinking of people as being "illegals," its not just thinking of them as criminals, it's thinking of them as non-peoples. Then it's easy to hate and fear them.

But don't assume everyone is like that, or that just because they use the term illegal and mean mexican, that everyone does.

Of course.

The word leaves out the "immigrant" part but keeps the "illegal" part - so when you say someone is "an illegal" what are you saying? Just their criminality. Not even the part about them being human

But thats the point, in my opinion at least, for using the term. It seems to me, that the point about being an immigrant isn't important, in context of the current debate going on. The immigrant part isn't the important part of the phrase, in context again, instead the illegal part is.

I can agree with you, in general. However, in the midst of a debate in the country about illegal immigrants, the illegal part certainly seems to be more important. If you just said immigrants, great; but there would need to be much clarification. When you say an illegal, its assumed you mean immigrant.

I still think you should devote more of your resources on the actual racists, and less on convincing people not to use a word they pervert to be racist.

But thats the point, in my opinion at least, for using the term. It seems to me, that the point about being an immigrant isn't important, in context of the current debate going on. The immigrant part isn't the important part of the phrase, in context again, instead the illegal part is.

I can agree with you, in general. However, in the midst of a debate in the country about illegal immigrants, the illegal part certainly seems to be more important. If you just said immigrants, great; but there would need to be much clarification. When you say an illegal, its assumed you mean immigrant.

I still think you should devote more of your resources on the actual racists, and less on convincing people not to use a word they pervert to be racist.

If the illegality is important to emphasize, use the word "criminal," it's a noun that refers to a person who is in violation of the law.

Anyway, I do devote my 'resources' to the actual racists, but on this message board there is very little I can do to change anyone's mind. I'm not here to change the world... in fact I just asked a question.
Cuz I'm sick of being a criminal, and I want to be an illegal, since illegals are apparently even worse than criminals. :) Helps my badassery image.

If the illegality is important to emphasize, use the word "criminal," it's a noun that refers to a person who is in violation of the law.

Anyway, I do devote my 'resources' to the actual racists, but on this message board there is very little I can do to change anyone's mind. I'm not here to change the world... in fact I just asked a question.
Cuz I'm sick of being a criminal, and I want to be an illegal, since illegals are apparently even worse than criminals. :) Helps my badassery image.

:P

I have work in 8 hours, and I need to wake up in 6... Fuck me for staying up so late again :(

Anyways, Criminal can mean anyone, while illegal generally refers only to immigrants, which makes it a perfect term to use in context.

I'm pretty close to an illegal; I am doing something illegal the majority of my waking day(even if half of that is using warez, the rest being on drugs, and crap like that). I want to reach a point of being a full fledged illegal :P

:P
Anyways, Criminal can mean anyone, while illegal generally refers only to immigrants, which makes it a perfect term to use in context.

Yes, but in the context of a discussion about illegal immigrants, I think people would understand whats meant by "criminals" too.


I have work in 8 hours, and I need to wake up in 6... Fuck me for staying up so late again :(

I'm pretty close to an illegal; I am doing something illegal the majority of my waking day(even if half of that is using warez, the rest being on drugs, and crap like that). I want to reach a point of being a full fledged illegal :P

Sounds like a pretty nice job.

*steals it from you*

Ihre papiere, bitte!

I never thought I'd see the day. Frankly, I am now ashamed to be an english speaking person.


It isnt the language you ought to be ashamed of. They're trying to pass a law here so that ordinary police have to interrogate mexicans about their papers, and if they dont have the correct papers, put them in a van and take them to a detention center so that they can be deported.