NationStates Jolt Archive

:eek: Basically...this is whats going on::eek:

States are helping public schools escape potential penalties by skirting the No Child Left Behind law's requirement that students of all races must show annual academic progress. With the federal government's permission, schools aren't counting the test scores of nearly 2 million students when they report progress by racial groups, an Associated Press computer analysis found. Minorities -- who historically haven't fared as well as whites in testing -- make up the vast majority of students whose scores are being excluded, AP found. And the numbers have been rising.


Couple questions.

Why the hell are they just not counting nearly 2 million students...?

And why the hell are minorities doing so bad on their tests?

:confused:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060417/ap_on_go_ot/no_child_loophole_2;_ylt=Aqdk62OqAJjhJCrRJkyIAUw0Bk4B;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Answers to your questions; Inner city schools are largely minority, poor, underfunded, and have the worst test scores. I suspect your 2 million missing test scores are mostly from there. The reason the scores are allowed to be ignored is to keep the failure of "No Child left Behind" from becoming official and the neccesity of better school funding being a subject that is required to be addressed.

I have no idea if this is widespread, but when I was teaching in a middle school a few years ago in an economically challenged area, those children that did well (on a set of standardized tests, and in the general curriculum) received significant hostility from the other students.

It seemed somehow painfully unfashionable in that school to be academically inclined. Again, this is only one observation; this condition may not be prevalent.

The reason the scores are allowed to be ignored is to keep the failure of "No Child left Behind" from becoming official and the neccesity of better school funding being a subject that is required to be addressed.

Well that just sucks.

I cant beleive the government would stoop to that level. :mad:

I have no idea if this is widespread, but when I was teaching in a middle school a few years ago in an economically challenged area, those children that did well (on a set of standardized tests, and in the general curriculum) received significant hostility from the other students.

It seemed somehow painfully unfashionable in that school to be academically inclined. Again, this is only one observation; this condition may not be prevalent.

This could be it....but I wonder how we would fix that problem.

It seems like you would...in theory... have to change the culture in regards to education in economically challanged areas.

This could be it....but I wonder how we would fix that problem.

It seems like you would...in theory... have to change the culture in regards to education in economically challanged areas.

I'll buy that, I suppose. I noticed some of the parents shared the view of the children, but not all.

Well that just sucks.

I cant beleive the government would stoop to that level. :mad:Stoop?

That's a chest-high trick for this administration...

Stoop?

That's a chest-high trick for this administration...

Oh please, dont blame it on the Bush administration.. education has been an American problem...republican and democrat...long before Bush was even thinking of becoming President.

Not to mention this article discusses education on a state level.

I'll buy that, I suppose. I noticed some of the parents shared the view of the children, but not all.

Yeah but, the parents already had their chance at school....so we basically have to alter the culture and make becoming educated "cool" for the students in school now..so they do well and pass on this culture to their children.

I think we are talking about re doing black culture...because if I recall from statistics I've seen, blacks do the worst in school out of Hispanics and Whites.

This could be it....but I wonder how we would fix that problem.

It seems like you would...in theory... have to change the culture in regards to education in economically challanged areas.


you would have to do that. not trying to be racist here, but inner city schools dont tend to have the highest rate of students graduating and moving on to college. there for the subjects studied in these schools shouldnt be college prep type classes. they should offer some college prep classes but it shouldnt be graduation requirement. what should be taught in these areas are things that will be usefull once the student is out of high school, something that interest them. maybe start trade apprentice ships through high school, etc...

It seems like you would...in theory... have to change the culture in regards to education in economically challanged areas.However, to do that, you would have to actually reform the system in order to make education a worthwhile pursuit for students living in economically challenged areas.

However, to do that, you would have to actually reform the system in order to make education a worthwhile pursuit for students living in economically challenged areas.

And how, my fellow American, do you propose we go along with that?

What could we do to inspire motivation?

you would have to do that. not trying to be racist here, but inner city schools dont tend to have the highest rate of students graduating and moving on to college. there for the subjects studied in these schools shouldnt be college prep type classes. they should offer some college prep classes but it shouldnt be graduation requirement. what should be taught in these areas are things that will be usefull once the student is out of high school, something that interest them. maybe start trade apprentice ships through high school, etc...

But then they would be learning less than people of other...socio-economic groups.

You would essentially be creating classes....and these would be classes based on intellegence.

We have to have an equal level of education everywhere.

We just have to work on bringing blacks and other minorities that our bringing our education down, up.

We dont want to leave them behind, but we dont want to suffer because of them...its a tiny bit difficult.

However, to do that, you would have to actually reform the system in order to make education a worthwhile pursuit for students living in economically challenged areas.

that is what i was trying to say in my earlier post. make school studies less college prep in areas with low rates of students moving on to college. make it more to help them once they are no longer in school. i mentioned trade apprenticeship programs through high school. i believe this could be a very worth while venture for many people. they will be starting to set a life for themself doing something that is worthwhile, earnign them income, and off the streets.

Interestingly, I know a lot of gifted grad students in engineering and the sciences that are African, but not as many that are African-American (there are definitely some, but they seem at least somewhat underrepresented, as do women)

And how, my fellow American, do you propose we go along with that?

What could we do to inspire motivation?Well, banning capitalism would be fun, but I don't think it's necessary. Only a certain amount of income redistribution would be necessary, enough to make it so that anyone who wants to go to college can afford to. Also, it would be necessary to change the attitudes of people so that they would actually hire a lawyer from an economically challenged area.

But then they would be learning less than people of other...socio-economic groups.

You would essentially be creating classes....and these would be classes based on intellegence.

We have to have an equal level of education everywhere.

We just have to work on bringing blacks and other minorities that our bringing our education down, up.

We dont want to leave them behind, but we dont want to suffer because of them...its a tiny bit difficult.

that would be in a world where the clouds are always white and fluffy and roads are made of gold. i guess im more competitive econimics where you have to earn your way up, you dont just become.

that is what i was trying to say in my earlier post. make school studies less college prep in areas with low rates of students moving on to college. make it more to help them once they are no longer in school. i mentioned trade apprenticeship programs through high school. i believe this could be a very worth while venture for many people. they will be starting to set a life for themself doing something that is worthwhile, earnign them income, and off the streets.

But there may be an enormous untapped reservoir of talent for the higher academics in these areas, they just aren't being found and developed.

I agree that a skilled trade/craft can make an excellent living, maybe even better than some degrees, but I'd hate to see some formalized educational paths lose access to these population subsets.

that is what i was trying to say in my earlier post. make school studies less college prep in areas with low rates of students moving on to college. make it more to help them once they are no longer in school. i mentioned trade apprenticeship programs through high school. i believe this could be a very worth while venture for many people. they will be starting to set a life for themself doing something that is worthwhile, earnign them income, and off the streets.That would work also, but what I meant is the fact that someone in an economically challenged area knows that they're highly unlikely to actually get the job that they want that requires an education, so they stick to goals that are reachable for them.

Your way would encourage education of a different sort, which would also be good.

But there may be an enormous untapped reservoir of talent for the higher academics in these areas, they just aren't being found and developed.

I agree that a skilled trade/craft can make an excellent living, maybe even better than some degrees, but I'd hate to see some formalized educational paths lose access to these population subsets.

i agree that there is quite a bit of un tapped resources coming from the inner cities, but even in suburbs college just isnt for everyone. not everyone is set out to go to college and this can make high school very annyoing for them. they wont try, they may even just drop out. while i think college is great and everyone should get an education, i dont think high school should be centered around getting everyone ready for college. granted there should be some classes offered at every school that could help these pottential students to get ready and everyone should be allowed to join in on these classes by choice.

Interestingly, I know a lot of gifted grad students in engineering and the sciences that are African, but not as many that are African-American (there are definitely some, but they seem at least somewhat underrepresented, as do women)

That is because, in my opinion, to say that Blacks are stupid IS stupid...but to say that American black culture keeps blacks stupid...is correct.

Its not the peoples lack of abilities keeping them back....because they dont lack the abilities...its their "gangsta" culture..that puts a bigger emphasis on selling drugs and wearing cool "bling" over education and progress.

Just my opinion.

Just compare American black culture to American Asian culture....you will see that the culture makes the people...and it has nothing to do with there races.

That is because, in my opinion, to say that Blacks are stupid IS stupid...but to say that American black culture keeps blacks stupid...is correct.

Its not the peoples lack of abilities keeping them back....because they dont lack the abilities...its their "gangsta" culture..that puts a bigger emphasis on selling drugs and wearing cool "bling" over education and progress.

Just my opinion.

Just compare American black culture to American Asian culture....you will see that the culture makes the people...and it has nothing to do with there races.

From the inside of the black culture. Close. Black kids are making themselves stupid with 'gangsta' culture. Asian and Indian kids? My friends (of those races) get grounded if they get a B. No exaggeration, some kids get rewards for straight A's, their reward is not being grounded.

From the inside of the black culture. Close. Black kids are making themselves stupid with 'gangsta' culture. Asian and Indian kids? My friends (of those races) get grounded if they get a B. No exaggeration, some kids get rewards for straight A's, their reward is not being grounded.

i will never forget the day an asian girl in my math class cried when she got a 92% on a test. while me on the other hand, i was just glad i passed the test

Answers to your questions; Inner city schools are largely minority, poor, underfunded, and have the worst test scores. I suspect your 2 million missing test scores are mostly from there. The reason the scores are allowed to be ignored is to keep the failure of "No Child left Behind" from becoming official and the neccesity of better school funding being a subject that is required to be addressed.

I disagree that it is the funding per se. I think that the problem with inner city schools is that you don't have the right type of teaching approach. Or, for that matter, the right teachers.

What works wonders in Scarsdale, is not going to work in Harlem, and we shouldn't mechanically try and apply one system on another. Which is pretty much the conventional wisdom right now.

But there may be an enormous untapped reservoir of talent for the higher academics in these areas, they just aren't being found and developed.

I agree that a skilled trade/craft can make an excellent living, maybe even better than some degrees, but I'd hate to see some formalized educational paths lose access to these population subsets.

I agree with you on this. I think there are probably a lot of very smart kids in disadvantaged areas, that just don't get cultivated because they don't receive the same attention or quality of education that others might take for granted.

On kind of a side note, have you guys ever heard of the Cristo Rey network of schools? I was only told about them recently, and it seems an interesting concept. I'm not very well versed on the subject, but I gather they are parochial-type schools that get their money through the labor of their students. Kids there work four or five eight-hours days per month at a local business, but rather than getting a paycheque, the businesses sponsor their education. It's an interesting concept.

i agree that there is quite a bit of un tapped resources coming from the inner cities, but even in suburbs college just isnt for everyone. not everyone is set out to go to college and this can make high school very annyoing for them. they wont try, they may even just drop out. while i think college is great and everyone should get an education, i dont think high school should be centered around getting everyone ready for college. granted there should be some classes offered at every school that could help these pottential students to get ready and everyone should be allowed to join in on these classes by choice.
The problem is, how do you steer them into the classes, and how do you make sure that they are aware of the choice that they are making?

If it's up to students, well, they may decide that shop classes are much easier and drop all academics to find later on in life that a regular high school degree is what they need for college, especially when the body starts to go.

If it's up to the schools, then we start tracking students by ability, which as a teacher I dislike (As someone who had school staff tell me that a trade school was the best I could hope for when I wanted to go to college, I hate with a passion that is unholy).

One of the best parts of the American education system is that it allows for second (or third, or forth) chances.

It's a sef-perpetuating problem and it's one of the few reasons I support bussing. See, we can't relace ignorant parents with nurturing parents. More's the pity. We can't replace dumbass neighborhood punks these kids end up idolizing with normal kids. But we CAN replace school peers with a variety of students from all cultures and walks of life. Here's the problem: While poor inner city black and hispanic children can be bussed to better schools in predominantly white neighborhoods, what happens when it's proposed that preominantly white students are bussed to poor inner city schools? Care to take a guess? Those inner city schools and the students still stuck in them still end up surrounded by ignorance and hopelessness. Worse, as an equal exchange of students isn't taking place, less poor inner city students can go to suburban schools without complaints of overcrowding.

Of course, we could focus our efforts on funding these poorest of poor schools and providing incentives for better teachers and educational materials that may attract a more diverse student body, but It's much easier to change nothing and throw tests at the schools instead. :p

It's a sef-perpetuating problem and it's one of the few reasons I support bussing. See, we can't relace ignorant parents with nurturing parents. More's the pity. We can't replace dumbass neighborhood punks these kids end up idolizing with normal kids. But we CAN replace school peers with a variety of students from all cultures and walks of life. Here's the problem: While poor inner city black and hispanic children can be bussed to better schools in predominantly white neighborhoods, what happens when it's proposed that preominantly white students are bussed to poor inner city schools? Care to take a guess? Those inner city schools and the students still stuck in them still end up surrounded by ignorance and hopelessness. Worse, as an equal exchange of students isn't taking place, less poor inner city students can go to suburban schools without complaints of overcrowding.

Of course, we could focus our efforts on funding these poorest of poor schools and providing incentives for better teachers and educational materials that may attract a more diverse student body, but It's much easier to change nothing and throw tests at the schools instead. :p

A nice hindu man from India explained the problem to me once.

"In america, you are all college graduates."

Now, that's far from the truth, but everyone thinks they could be, and some -if not most - people with college degrees shouldn't have them. Moreoever the prevailling wisdom in this country is that a college degree is a right.

So we don't respect teachers, because they don't have anything that we shouldn't be able to get. And yet paradoxically, we've made it pathetically easy to get one, which leads us to think that they should automatically be distrusted.

The upshot is, that in good neighborhoods people get sued for doing their job, and in bad ones they get no parental support.

Saying that, teaching tends to attract riff-raff anyway these days, so it is all fairly self inflicted. I mean, for fucks sake, most of us won't buy american cars, so it's obvious where our priorities are.

Saying that, teaching tends to attract riff-raff anyway these days, so it is all fairly self inflicted.
*sighs* Teaching gets the very dedicated or the very desperate. Usually after five years of teaching you're left with the very dedicated and the very nuts.

But anyone who thinks that teaching is easy hasn't stepped into a classroom, or they had a master teacher who made it look easy.

But anyone who thinks that teaching is easy hasn't stepped into a classroom, or they had a master teacher who made it look easy.

There are competent master teachers in the world? Really? :eek: I know many people, across two generations, that are teachers or becoming teachers, and they all say that their master teachers were totally worthless.

There are competent master teachers in the world? Really? :eek: I know many people, across two generations, that are teachers or becoming teachers, and they all say that their master teachers were totally worthless.
:confused: Uh, which version of master teacher are you talking about? A really good teacher, a master teacher who has compleated the licence, or the master teaching supervising a student teacher?

:confused: Uh, which version of master teacher are you talking about? A really good teacher, a master teacher who has compleated the licence, or the master teaching supervising a student teacher?
The master teacher supervising the student teacher.

The problem is, how do you steer them into the classes, and how do you make sure that they are aware of the choice that they are making?

If it's up to students, well, they may decide that shop classes are much easier and drop all academics to find later on in life that a regular high school degree is what they need for college, especially when the body starts to go.

If it's up to the schools, then we start tracking students by ability, which as a teacher I dislike (As someone who had school staff tell me that a trade school was the best I could hope for when I wanted to go to college, I hate with a passion that is unholy).

One of the best parts of the American education system is that it allows for second (or third, or forth) chances.


that is an issue, i do agree with you there. i was also told by school staff that college was not the best idea for me. i still somewhat remember the wording "(my name that im not going to give out) i hope you are not planning on going to college, i dont think it is a very good idea for you"

and another teacher told me
"(my name again) you are full of useless information"

now that i think back, they were both english teachers.

meh, i made something of myself after high school.

i am currently in college and doing very well

*sighs* Teaching gets the very dedicated or the very desperate. Usually after five years of teaching you're left with the very dedicated and the very nuts.

But anyone who thinks that teaching is easy hasn't stepped into a classroom, or they had a master teacher who made it look easy.

I'm speaking in generalities here. And, my experience, having been through both private and public education in two countries, is that teachers do not live up to the standard that the profession portrays. (Not to mention the fact that I off and on tutor inner-city children in science and get huge amounts of crap from NYC teachers).

Are there great teachers? Yes, absolutely. I've had some. The problem is that, mostly, they don't speak up and police the profession. As such you have become like lawyers and doctors, wherein you are generally distrusted owing to the lack of expulsions from the profession &c. It's inevitable that it gets judged by the worst at that point.

I'm speaking in generalities here. And, my experience, having been through both private and public education in two countries, is that teachers do not live up to the standard that the profession portrays. (Not to mention the fact that I off and on tutor inner-city children in science and get huge amounts of crap from NYC teachers).

Are there great teachers? Yes, absolutely. I've had some. The problem is that, mostly, they don't speak up and police the profession. As such you have become like lawyers and doctors, wherein you are generally distrusted owing to the lack of expulsions from the profession &c. It's inevitable that it gets judged by the worst at that point.

Except then you can compensate for the judging with your paycheck. :D

Except then you can compensate for the judging with your paycheck. :D

Teacher do okay; if you consider the workload. It's not horrible.

Stress, forget it, I could tell you stories about being an engineer.

I think teaching is hard for a lot of people because they are 'middle class' in the british sense of the term, and they are not prepared for the fact that most people are 'middle class'.

The master teacher supervising the student teacher.
Depends upon the master teacher I guess. I've had both good and bad.

I'm speaking in generalities here. And, my experience, having been through both private and public education in two countries, is that teachers do not live up to the standard that the profession portrays. (Not to mention the fact that I off and on tutor inner-city children in science and get huge amounts of crap from NYC teachers).

Are there great teachers? Yes, absolutely. I've had some. The problem is that, mostly, they don't speak up and police the profession. As such you have become like lawyers and doctors, wherein you are generally distrusted owing to the lack of expulsions from the profession &c. It's inevitable that it gets judged by the worst at that point.
I've yet to run into any profession that polices itself well, but when you consider that half of teachers quit within the first 5 years, that says something.

Teacher do okay; if you consider the workload. It's not horrible.
Average starting salary for a teacher is around $28k a year (depending of course on location). Teachers are contracted usually from a half an hour before the school starts to a half an hour after the final bell. In reality we're there a lot longer than that. We also have in service classes, credits, and preperation. The workload is a lot more than you think.

Stress, forget it, I could tell you stories about being an engineer.
If you ever have one of your engineering projects take a swing at you, go into hysterics because it had it's first period in class, refuse to study because of abuse at home, or colaspe in the middle of working on it due to lack of nutrition, THEN I can relate to your stress as an engineer.

Like I told my friend the ChemE, "You at least know what will go boom, I have no idea."

If you ever have one of your engineering projects take a swing at you, go into hysterics because it had it's first period in class, refuse to study because of abuse at home, or colaspe in the middle of working on it due to lack of nutrition, THEN I can relate to your stress as an engineer.


Well, there are several large structures that I have designed: and if you don't think that I don't go to bed every night worrying about the people on them, then go ahead, assume it is a stress free job.

Personally, I would rather someone just took a swing at me.

that would be in a world where the clouds are always white and fluffy and roads are made of gold. i guess im more competitive econimics where you have to earn your way up, you dont just become.

I agree...where did you get it from that I would be stating otherwise?

Don't we already have a thread on this?

Don't we already have a thread on this?

Yes...it was this one...DCD made a second one.:p