NationStates Jolt Archive

Over the past few months I’ve been on and off discussing Satanism with an old buddy who has joined the religion I have to say that I find it far too reactionary and materialistic but I’d like to see what NS thinks of it.

Also it’s an odd occurrence that he got into the death metal scene than switched to Satanism the reason this worries me is that the music comes across as brainwashing with almost subliminal lyrics and pretty much all out propaganda your thoughts on this?

Over the past few months I’ve been on and off discussing Satanism with an old buddy who has joined the religion I have to say that I find it far too reactionary and materialistic but I’d like to see what NS thinks of it.

Also it’s an odd occurrence that he got into the death metal scene than switched to Satanism the reason this worries me is that the music comes across as brainwashing with almost subliminal lyrics and pretty much all out propaganda your thoughts on this?
I don't really have an opinion on Satanism, but death metal being propaganda for it? Bollocks. I've been listening to death metal for years, and I find the vast majority of it remarkably comical. If your friend was brainwashed by 'subliminal lyrics' then I'd say he's a very suggestible person. And I mean very.

LOL, brainwashed by subliminal lyrics? Didn't people say that about Jazz?

"Satanism clever interpretation or teenage claptrap?"

Neither. Just a very stoopid, third-rate "religion" that does nothing more than justify various forms of insanity.

LOL, brainwashed by subliminal lyrics? Didn't people say that about Jazz?
I thought it was Elvis...

Death metal turned your friend into a satanist? Am I the only teenager that wasn't converted to some crazy religion by music?!

"Satanism clever interpretation or teenage claptrap?"

Neither. Just a very stoopid, third-rate "religion" that does nothing more than justify various forms of insanity.

I assume your referring to the idea of individuality and materialism?

Neither. Just a very stoopid, third-rate "religion" that does nothing more than justify various forms of insanity.

Umm, "justifying various forms of insanity" is what every religion does.

Umm, "justifying various forms of insanity" is what every religion does.
Especially any that have to do with the Christian God. The number of times people pleaded insanity after their discussion with angels or God gets ridiculous.

Death metal turned your friend into a satanist? Am I the only teenager that wasn't converted to some crazy religion by music?!
I'm not a teenager, but I managed to avoid being converted by music...and everything else for that matter.

Welcome to The Crucible, part XXIV.

I dealt with the whole "gateway to satanism" hysteria when I got into roleplaying games like D&D. The game taught me math, planning, strategy, cooperation, creativity and even leadership. But anyway....

If someone hears something they like and decide to adhere to it as principle, the notion that it's brainwashing is all dependent upon one's point of view. When someone hears something they want to live by in Satanism, it's usually pejoritavely labeled brainwashing. If someone hears something they take to heart in Christianity, it's called a conversion, or "seeing the light", etc.

I don't want to start a flamewar over comparing one belief with another, but I figure as long as nobody is harming anyone else, I don't see much of a difference. Now if they're Satanists who sacrifice children and engage in ilegal behavior, there's a definite problem.

Once again, it's a matter of perspective.

Isn't satanism the self-absorbed worship of one's self though?

when you say he joined the religion what does that mean?

HOW did he join? does he go to satanic meetings of some kind?

depends on the type of Satanism you are talking about. I knew some Lavey Satanists, and I was one for a while, most of the people I knew were pretty immature and you know almost alway rebelling against their parents.

The other type, I haven't really met anyone over the age of 16 that does it, and most of them are doing it to piss off their parents or they got tired of Wicca.

engage in ilegal behavior, there's a definite problem.

Here’s the thing it does the opposite of turn the other cheek and says as he puts it "if someone hits you hit them back" which is actually in some circumstances illegal (and leaves the whole world blind)

Isn't satanism the self-absorbed worship of one's self though?
pretty much.

I could deal with the "I am my own god" but then the stuff after got to a point where I was like "geez you guys need to grow up"

but, since I was actually in it for a year, and got out of it, I probably have a biased view.

"I don't want to start a flamewar over comparing one belief with another, but I figure as long as nobody is harming anyone else, I don't see much of a difference. Now if they're Satanists who sacrifice children and engage in ilegal behavior, there's a definite problem."

True Satanists do not sacrifice children. In fact, they do not sacrifice ANY animal for the sake of worship towards any higher power. The only sacrifice would be that of any "herd conformity". Satanism (as created by Anton Szandor Lavey) has been blasted since its inception by the Christians and Catholics as a public scapegoat for their own righteousness. To be honest, I know of no TRUE Satanists that have bombed/set fire/assaulted anyone for their religious beliefs or societal actions...

Here’s the thing it does the opposite of turn the other cheek and says as he puts it "if someone hits you hit them back" which is actually in some circumstances illegal (and leaves the whole world blind)
Uh...okay.

You do realize that "turn the other cheek" was originally addressed to slaves being hit by masters, right?

"I don't want to start a flamewar over comparing one belief with another, but I figure as long as nobody is harming anyone else, I don't see much of a difference. Now if they're Satanists who sacrifice children and engage in ilegal behavior, there's a definite problem."

True Satanists do not sacrifice children. In fact, they do not sacrifice ANY animal for the sake of worship towards any higher power. The only sacrifice would be that of any "herd conformity". Satanism (as created by Anton Szandor Lavey) has been blasted since its inception by the Christians and Catholics as a public scapegoat for their own righteousness. To be honest, I know of no TRUE Satanists that have bombed/set fire/assaulted anyone for their religious beliefs or societal actions...
Which is why I used the word "if".

Uh...okay.

You do realize that "turn the other cheek" was originally addressed to slaves being hit by masters, right?

Good call. Most Christians don't realize that today. Jesus did advocate the submission of slaves to their masters. This was not a metaphorical turning of cheek as Christian interpret it, but rather a very literal thing as you've noted.

Another thing that reminds me of is the "if someone compells you to walk one mile, walk two." This, although it gave way to the phrase "go the extra mile", was originally a reference to the fact that a Roman solider could compel a citizen to carry their belongings one mile down the road, but no further. Jesus advocated walking the extra mile as a form of civil disobedience - this could actually get a Roman solider in trouble, and thus keep them wary of making you walk at all with them.

Just my little factoid I had to throw in.

Which is why I used the word "if".


I agree. I'm not contending against you, just reinforcing.

Most New York Islanders fans are Satanists.

http://www.nhl.com/players/8459534.html

pretty much.

I could deal with the "I am my own god" but then the stuff after got to a point where I was like "geez you guys need to grow up"

but, since I was actually in it for a year, and got out of it, I probably have a biased view.

Best not say that too loud. I saw a documentary on TV a few months ago about some alleged satanist parents. In England some social services people, along with the police, burst into a number of houses not long after dawn, arrested the parents and took the children into protective custody. The parents were accused of being satanists and abusing their children. The children were interviewed by inexperienced social workers and what they said was twisted to fit into the idea that their parents were 'evil satanists'. When one child talked about ghosts, it was assumed he meant his parents and their satanists friends. The fact that they had read a story in school with a ghost in it was ignored. I'll try and remember some more details so I can get a link or something.

"I don't want to start a flamewar over comparing one belief with another, but I figure as long as nobody is harming anyone else, I don't see much of a difference. Now if they're Satanists who sacrifice children and engage in ilegal behavior, there's a definite problem."

True Satanists do not sacrifice children. In fact, they do not sacrifice ANY animal for the sake of worship towards any higher power. The only sacrifice would be that of any "herd conformity". Satanism (as created by Anton Szandor Lavey) has been blasted since its inception by the Christians and Catholics as a public scapegoat for their own righteousness. To be honest, I know of no TRUE Satanists that have bombed/set fire/assaulted anyone for their religious beliefs or societal actions...
i dont understand how mr lavey got to be the boss of satanism. the concept existed long before he was born. that he decided to write a book and make up a relgion he CALLED satanism doesnt seem to me to make his satanism the "true" satanism.

Satanism is a religion now? Forgive my ignorance, but what's it like? Are there any organized cults? What's an evening worshipping the lord of darkness like?

My curiosity has been aroused.

While I do not agree with the majority of what Satanism has to offer, I see similar issues with just about ALL religions. Any one religion's beliefs and values are propagated by its followers who chose to act through their own interpretation, despite the original teachings and intent. Sad really.

Best not say that too loud. I saw a documentary on TV a few months ago about some alleged satanist parents. In England some social services people, along with the police, burst into a number of houses not long after dawn, arrested the parents and took the children into protective custody. The parents were accused of being satanists and abusing their children. The children were interviewed by inexperienced social workers and what they said was twisted to fit into the idea that their parents were 'evil satanists'. When one child talked about ghosts, it was assumed he meant his parents and their satanists friends. The fact that they had read a story in school with a ghost in it was ignored. I'll try and remember some more details so I can get a link or something.
geez, I already have to worry about the government agents coming to take my kids because I homeschool, now I have to worry about them because I dabbled in Satanism like 10 years ago?! pathetic.

i dont understand how mr lavey got to be the boss of satanism. the concept existed long before he was born. that he decided to write a book and make up a relgion he CALLED satanism doesnt seem to me to make his satanism the "true" satanism.

Which is why I tired to convey (Lavey). Agreed, the concept isn't new, he just repackaged it. The same could be said about Christianity...following a very similar model to an ancient Egyptian belief (in Ra-Osiris-Horus as the earliest in the "Father-son-holy spirit" model).

geez, I already have to worry about the government agents coming to take my kids because I homeschool, now I have to worry about them because I dabbled in Satanism like 10 years ago?! pathetic.

What's odder is that the parents in question were never satanists. At least I don't think they ever were.

Satanism is a religion now? Forgive my ignorance, but what's it like? Are there any organized cults? What's an evening worshipping the lord of darkness like?

My curiosity has been aroused.

Satanism isn't to be confused with Devil worship.

Satanism, as near as I can figure it, makes a religion out of atheism. The idea is that we are all self-made and therefore each our on god. Or some crap.

Satanism is a religion now? Forgive my ignorance, but what's it like? Are there any organized cults? What's an evening worshipping the lord of darkness like?

My curiosity has been aroused.
http://www.churchofsatan.com/

Most Satanists (of the Anton Lavey persausion, the other baby-killing kind only exist in xtian fantasy land) are just extreme libertarian-anarchists looking for a religion that allows them to practice strenous liberty.

The religion itself is pretty much exactly the same as other new-age religions. Stress on individuality, pleasure, so on and so forth. By the way for anyone tempted to get a little confuzzled. Laveyian Satanists do not worship the Samael/Lucifer/Morningstar/Beezelbub/Mr. Scratch of the bible or popular Christian imagination. What they do is convert a centuries old symbol of evil into a symbol of freedom and rebellion.

The kind of Satanists who worship the Devil of the Bible go by a different name. We call them Christians, their holy book is the Bible, they take their beliefs from it, and mostly their angry teenagers looking for attention.

I am not now nor have I ever been a Satanist (please don't take my kids!) but in general they are normal, well-adjusted, if somewhat wacky people. I recommend attending a service at your local Satanic coven or just finding one to talk to.

It's a hoot!

Well, I'm a little disappointed. I was expecting something way more scandalous than your average anarcho-libertarian group of teenagers meeting to rebel against parental authority. :p

I was expecting more of a "religious zealot" following blindly every command of the church authority without questioning, hating those who don't worship their evil, dark god and scheming for world domination...

Weird, why am I thinking about the catholic church ...?

Over the past few months I’ve been on and off discussing Satanism with an old buddy who has joined the religion I have to say that I find it far too reactionary and materialistic but I’d like to see what NS thinks of it.

Also it’s an odd occurrence that he got into the death metal scene than switched to Satanism the reason this worries me is that the music comes across as brainwashing with almost subliminal lyrics and pretty much all out propaganda your thoughts on this?

not using punctuation is satanic.

Not using punctuation is satanic.
Ow! My eyes, burn fr - from the lack of ca - capit - capitali - capitalization! Such expressive of cruelty is truely befitting of hell! :)

It's mostly Nietzscheanism, but with the good and/or interesting stuff removed. LaVey lacks Nietzsche's insights into the nature of nihilism and overcoming it. For LaVey, it's all about pure pleasure, whereas Nietzsche had something more complex in mind, the transvaluation of all values, self-mastery, the übermensch, etc. Then LaVey throws in a bunch of bullshit about magic. I certainly don't like Nietzsche, but I absolutely loathe satanism.

Isn't satanism the self-absorbed worship of one's self though?

That's libertarianism. Although the difference is often subtle.

Most New York Islanders fans are Satanists.

http://www.nhl.com/players/8459534.html

This is cool. I notice that Satan is on the right wing...

I knew it;)

Best not say that too loud. I saw a documentary on TV a few months ago about some alleged satanist parents. In England some social services people, along with the police, burst into a number of houses not long after dawn, arrested the parents and took the children into protective custody. The parents were accused of being satanists and abusing their children. The children were interviewed by inexperienced social workers and what they said was twisted to fit into the idea that their parents were 'evil satanists'. When one child talked about ghosts, it was assumed he meant his parents and their satanists friends. The fact that they had read a story in school with a ghost in it was ignored. I'll try and remember some more details so I can get a link or something.

I could've sworn the satanism mass hysteria thing was a fair few years ago, ah well, learn something new every day.

I could've sworn the satanism mass hysteria thing was a fair few years ago, ah well, learn something new every day.

It pops up again every few years. The biggest one that I remember was in the early 80's and coincided w/ the anti-D&D, daycare, and halloween mass hysterias.

Satanism isn't to be confused with Devil worship.

Satanism, as near as I can figure it, makes a religion out of atheism. The idea is that we are all self-made and therefore each our on god. Or some crap.

"Devil worship" is as much Satanism as the beast that LaVey cobbled together, though it's true that LaVey popularised the term "Satanist" as meaning something other than a baby-eating Christian bogey man. "Devil worshipper" was also used as a derogatory term used by LaVeyan Satanists to mock their theistic counterparts, though some are starting to "reclaim" it these days.

However, LaVayen Satanism is not the be all and end all of Satanism, or even of atheistic Satanism. There is much more to modern Satanism than just LaVey's ideas, ranging from theistic to pantheistic to non-LaVeyan atheistic.

Eut, do you know the basics of satanism? (I'm not one, but tell me).

Also, those parents in England got some sort of compensation for the government raping their houses like this, right? Right??

EDIT: I read about this story now. As an occultist and as a future father, I want these people fucking DEAD! What the hell was wrong with them? They took 10 years of several people's lives! Only now the children whose childhoods were stolen are pursing damages. I want these people DEAD!!! Are we in fucking Salem now? I'm sorry if I seem emotional, but I know that this kind of shit could happen to me if left unchecked!

LOL, brainwashed by subliminal lyrics? Didn't people say that about Jazz?

Rock, rap, swing, boy band...I personally think country is propoganda with subliminal lyrics...

You can argue against ANY media for the dumbest reasons if you hate it enough...I just did it!

Most New York Islanders fans are Satanists.

http://www.nhl.com/players/8459534.html

If ay state worships satan for its hockey team its NJ. :p

I could've sworn the satanism mass hysteria thing was a fair few years ago, ah well, learn something new every day.

It was in the 80s/90s that that government-sponsored crime happened. Only now are they looking for compensation.

This is cool. I notice that Satan is on the right wing...

I knew it;)

Hockey holds he answers to everything if you look hard enough.

"Satanism clever interpretation or teenage claptrap?"

Neither. Just a very stoopid, third-rate "religion" that does nothing more than justify various forms of insanity.

Learn what satanism entails before slagging it off.

IN Laveyan Satanism, as with most other forms of this religion, there is little of the sacrifice usually attributed to satanism. The religion is about attaining personal possessions and wealth, and self-interest in general.

"Satanism clever interpretation or teenage claptrap?"

Neither. Just a very stoopid, third-rate "religion" that does nothing more than justify various forms of insanity.

Kinda like Science.

(Read into that what you may. I can think of at least two ways that can be read. :p)

Isn't satanism the self-absorbed worship of one's self though?
Thus the greatest religion ever!

I’m not a Satanist and have no desire to be one, but it’s one of the few religions that I respect.

"Devil worship" is as much Satanism as the beast that LaVey cobbled together, though it's true that LaVey popularised the term "Satanist" as meaning something other than a baby-eating Christian bogey man. "Devil worshipper" was also used as a derogatory term used by LaVeyan Satanists to mock their theistic counterparts, though some are starting to "reclaim" it these days.

However, LaVayen Satanism is not the be all and end all of Satanism, or even of atheistic Satanism. There is much more to modern Satanism than just LaVey's ideas, ranging from theistic to pantheistic to non-LaVeyan atheistic.

Is there a satanic equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Is there a satanic equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Yes.

According to the Catholic Church and the KKK, they're called the Latter-Day Saints.

;)

Most of my studies of LaVeyan Satanism have lead me to believe that Milton's idea of "It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven" is pretty much spot on with the belief system. Want to defeat evil? Simply become more evil than those who oppose you.

i dont understand how mr lavey got to be the boss of satanism. the concept existed long before he was born. that he decided to write a book and make up a relgion he CALLED satanism doesnt seem to me to make his satanism the "true" satanism.

LaVey got to be the boss because he was a good salesman. He put together a religion, wrote the bible, and set up a P.O. box that you could send 100 buck to and become a bona fide Satanist. You got a membership card and everything. Brilliant, really. The man built a past, he built a religion, and he sold it well, you can't fault him for that.

I think that anyone who has spent any time really giving LaVey's writings a good read eventually figures out that he was pulling a Barnum. He wrote a handful of books, borrowed the philosophy or mystical thinking from someone else, and packaged it in exactly the way that would get the most rubes to buy. By the end it almost seemed like he was trying to see how farcical he could get(see his essays "The Whoopie Cushion Shall Rise Again, "How to Become a Werewolf," "Panty Pissers: a New Perspective on an Old Fetish," "The Sneeze," "Don't Bathe," or my personal favorite "Hatha Toilet Seat Meditation"). The man enjoyed screwing with people, the marks who bought his books were no exception.

"Devil worship" is as much Satanism as the beast that LaVey cobbled together, though it's true that LaVey popularised the term "Satanist" as meaning something other than a baby-eating Christian bogey man. "Devil worshipper" was also used as a derogatory term used by LaVeyan Satanists to mock their theistic counterparts, though some are starting to "reclaim" it these days.

However, LaVayen Satanism is not the be all and end all of Satanism, or even of atheistic Satanism. There is much more to modern Satanism than just LaVey's ideas, ranging from theistic to pantheistic to non-LaVeyan atheistic.

LaVey never had any good ideas of his own, his tallent lay in repackaging things for mass consumption and figuring out exactly which chords to strike. All of the major concepts in LaVey's work are directly stolen from Crowley, Nietzsche, Machiavelli, or Sun Tzu. Hell, LaVey didn't even bother to do any special synthesis, he just rewrote what other people had written in his own words(the "Book of Satan" that opens his Satanic Bible isn't much mor ethan a lazy attempt to craft his own Liber AL).

Whether modern-day Satanists like it or not, LaVey is their figurehead. He is the final word in "atheistic Satanism" because he was the person who first got the idea to call secular humanism Satanism. Everyone who has shown up on the scene since is either a con man trying to be the next great guru or some disaffected kid who never got the joke and lacked the ambition to read anything else.

Satanism is to the occult what Easter floats are to Christianity, and LaVey is just the big bald easter bunny.

I could've sworn the satanism mass hysteria thing was a fair few years ago, ah well, learn something new every day.
The documentary was a few months ago, it was about events years previously. Don't know how many years.

The documentary was a few months ago, it was about events years previously. Don't know how many years.

Started in anout 1987, ended in about 1996. Ten years, roughly, started 20 years ago, ended 10. This is NOT a good mark, we were supposed to be past that in 1796!