NationStates Jolt Archive

For the love of (a non-existent) god this thread's reached 70 pages and you still can't agree on a definition of atheism!

This thread deserves to be archived for its sheer pointlessness.


I tried that with him. I found it didn't work, no matter how calm or how many times I explained things to him. So I got out the rock. Figured it couldn't make things any worse.
Oh but it has. You are now the proud owner of a one-month forum ban.

This thread is now locked because it is too long for anyone to follow and has degenerated into pages of flamebaiting. Those who wish to discuss atheism without further interference, are welcome to do so in a new thread.


You heard it. Let's continue. First of all I'd like to ask all of you to create some sort of sensible definition of 'Atheism' without burning/flaming/stoning eachother to the ground.

Any stance that doesn't say I believe in god.

Atheism: the belief that there is no God

Well, it would seem to make sense that Atheism lacks a deity figure, and therefore Atheism is a lifestyle. Yet, Atheism does address the idea of a greater being, saying this isn't one, and the idea of how to live one's life, as one wishes regardless of higher influence. As such, I would define Atheism as follows:
- A religion that professes the belief in no higher being beyond human senses.
Sounds OK?
- Veritas

Atheist is derived from Anceint Greek.

A being none or no.

Theos being God.

Hence, a theos means no God. Interestingly, people who hear this word, immediately also think that it means that the person who has declared such is without any beliefs.

A lack of a belief in supernatural forces.

The conclusion that there is no God.

I think the term 'atheism' covers quite a range of opinions, ranging from belief, to absence of belief, to a philosophical stance or logical deduction, and so on. There are several directions from which one could approach a rejection of organised religion, even lumping them all into one 'God' concept and viewing that construct as an enemy, as my grandfather did.

Thus if a definition of atheism could be agreed upon, it would most likely constitute a long list of different philosophies.

- A religion that professes the belief in no higher being beyond human senses.
Sounds OK?
- Veritas

That actually sounds quite sensible. More sensible than some of the things I've read before.

Although a sharper definition might be in order:
The principle that dictates that there is no higher being/object/consciousness other than that of the human mind/senses.

Agreed?

Well, it would seem to make sense that Atheism lacks a deity figure, and therefore Atheism is a lifestyle. Yet, Atheism does address the idea of a greater being, saying this isn't one, and the idea of how to live one's life, as one wishes regardless of higher influence. As such, I would define Atheism as follows:
- A religion that professes the belief in no higher being beyond human senses.
Sounds OK?
- Veritas

You say atheism is the truth?
That's a little contestable :p

Well, it would seem to make sense that Atheism lacks a deity figure, and therefore Atheism is a lifestyle.

How on Earth do you make that leap? Atheism lacks a diety, therefore it is a "lifestyle"?

So because people who don't collect stamps lack stamp collections, it follows that non-stamp-collecting is a lifestyle?


Yet, Atheism does address the idea of a greater being, saying this isn't one, and the idea of how to live one's life, as one wishes regardless of higher influence. As such, I would define Atheism as follows:
- A religion that professes the belief in no higher being beyond human senses.
Sounds OK?

Thus, individuals who profess that there is no Santa Claus are all members of the non-Santa religion?

I think the term 'atheism' covers quite a range of opinions, ranging from belief, to absence of belief, to a philosophical stance or logical deduction, and so on. There are several directions from which one could approach a rejection of organised religion, even lumping them all into one 'God' concept and viewing that construct as an enemy, as my grandfather did.

Thus if a definition of atheism could be agreed upon, it would most likely constitute a long list of different philosophies.
Not if you take the most concrete meaning of the word itself. The word has a singular meaning. There is nothing about believing with atheist, because "a" is without or no belief in (theos) god.

I consider Atheism to be ; godless (insert heathen, blaspheming, heretic scum at will:p ).

Thus, individuals who profess that there is no Santa Claus are all members of the non-Santa religion?

Obviously. As least it would be a cult :p
I mean, ordinairy people don't profess such things.

Not if you take the most concrete meaning of the word itself. The word has a singular meaning. There is nothing about believing with atheist, because "a" is without or no belief in (theos) god.
The roots of the word give a very narrow definition. Essentially only the destination, rather than the sequence of thought which brought a person there.

I think the term 'atheism' covers quite a range of opinions, ranging from belief, to absence of belief, to a philosophical stance or logical deduction, and so on. There are several directions from which one could approach a rejection of organised religion, even lumping them all into one 'God' concept and viewing that construct as an enemy, as my grandfather did.

Thus if a definition of atheism could be agreed upon, it would most likely constitute a long list of different philosophies.
"Atheism" is a very simple term, with a very simple definition. An atheist is a person who disbelieves in God/god/gods. Disbelief may be a lack of belief in God, or a conscious belief that there IS NO GOD.

Atheism isn't not, in and of itself, a philosophy or belief system. It represents the lack of a particular belief (the belief in God/god/gods). Claiming that atheism is a religion or a "belief system" is as silly as claiming that lack of belief in leprechauns is a "belief system." It is a single belief (or rather, a lack of belief), not a "belief system."

Atheists may hold a range of beliefs, and may support a variety of philosophies. Some of these philosophies only hold up if one lacks god-belief, while others work no matter what you think about God.

It is no different from how "theism" is not a belief system. Theism is a term describing one particular belief. People who are theists may belong to a range of belief systems and/or religions, but their theism itself is not a "belief system." It's a belief.

Well, it would seem to make sense that Atheism lacks a deity figure, and therefore Atheism is a lifestyle. Yet, Atheism does address the idea of a greater being, saying this isn't one, and the idea of how to live one's life, as one wishes regardless of higher influence. As such, I would define Atheism as follows:
- A religion that professes the belief in no higher being beyond human senses.
Sounds OK?
- Veritas
Buddism has no deities either, yet it is accepted as a religion.

I'm agnostic basically because anything is possible when it comes to the infinate span of space and time, and it may very well be entirely beyond our understanding of everything.


Oh and Atheism isn't a religion because you could be athiest and still part of a religion, the same way that you can believe in god (theism) and not be part of a religion.

First of all I'd like to ask all of you to create some sort of sensible definition of 'Atheism'Obviously it's the worship of the Goddess Athe (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Atheism)

Atheism means the *absence* of any beliefs or religious feelings.

"Atheism" is a very simple term, with a very simple definition. An atheist is a person who disbelieves in God/god/gods. Disbelief may be a lack of belief in God, or a conscious belief that there IS NO GOD.
Quoted for agreement.

I'm agnostic basically because anything is possible when it comes to the infinate span of space and time, and it may very well be entirely beyond our understanding of everything.

At this moment.

Oh and Atheism isn't a religion because you could be athiest and still part of a religion, the same way that you can believe in go (theism) and not be part of a religion.

Very true, though I must say that hadn't occured to me. Nice one.

Atheism means the *absence* of any beliefs or religious feelings.

So if you are an atheist you cannot put your faith into other people either? By saying 'I believe in you'?

That's what you're saying.

What about a poll? :p

Obviously it's the worship of the Goddess Athe (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Atheism)

Lol, I like this.
Particularly the bit about slapping people with tuna :D

It's potentially interesting to note that the Oxford American English Dictionary defines atheism as "the theory or belief that God does not exist." The interesting bit is that God is used with a capital G. At the very least, I think that suggests that atheism is more in direct opposition to monotheism (single god) than any other religious system (such as animism or pantheism).

Atheism means the *absence* of any beliefs or religious feelings.

I wouldn't agree. As Monkeypimp said, you can be a member of a religion and be a Atheist, and vice versa. Buddhists as it happens are atheists, as there are no gods in buddhism.

Atheism means the *absence* of any beliefs or religious feelings.
My mother is an atheist, and she's got a whole hell of a lot of beliefs. She will not hesitate to share them with you. :)

Atheism means the *absence* of any beliefs or religious feelings.
I disagree. Atheism is a belief, and Atheism can have religous feelings in the sense that religion is hogwash. You are correct in how it is not a religion, in my opinion at least. However, to merely have an absence of religous feelings are called paganism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pagan) and heathenism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=heathens).

I'd say atheism was the opposite of theism and hence means 'not having a belief in a god or gods'. Some people would go further and say it means 'having a belief that there is no god or gods'. You could argue that the former implies the latter, but this excludes the possibility of having no belief in either direction (which some people call agnosticism, although that often refers to the belief that the existence of god or gods cannot be proven).

I think the term 'atheism' covers quite a range of opinions, ranging from belief, to absence of belief, to a philosophical stance or logical deduction, and so on. There are several directions from which one could approach a rejection of organised religion, even lumping them all into one 'God' concept and viewing that construct as an enemy, as my grandfather did.

Thus if a definition of atheism could be agreed upon, it would most likely constitute a long list of different philosophies.
Agreed

Athiest is just as general as thiest ... to get a real handle on what a person believes you have to get a bit more specific

I disagree. Atheism is a belief, and Atheism can have religous feelings in the sense that religion is hogwash. You are correct in how it is not a religion, in my opinion at least. However, to merely have an absence of religous feelings are called paganism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pagan) and heathenism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=heathens).
Now that's ridiculous.
1) Atheism is the antonym of theism. Thus it is not a belief, only the absence of belief in god(s)
2) The belief that there are no gods or supernatural stuff is called strong atheism. Obviously all strong atheists are atheists, but the converse of that is not true.
3) Paganism is a religion with a number of gods and spirits and rituals. Heathens are people who belong to a religion, but are not christians or jews (and usually not muslims, but some christians call muslims heathens). There is nothing called "heathenism".

There are two different kinds of atheism in my opinion:

Strong, or explicit, atheism is a belief that there is no god. It requires faith and can reasonably be classed as a religion as the statement "there is no god" presumes that whoever made the statement knows everything about the Universe.

Weak, or implicit, atheism is merely a lack of belief in a god/gods. It requires no faith as it is, by definition, an absense on faith.

An example of the difference between 'belief in no god' and 'no belief in god' would be a black widow spider in the banana bowl. Black widows have been known to reach England by hiding in banana crates so it isn't impossible that there is a black widow in the banana bowl and so it is unreasonable to state "there is no black widow in the banana bowl' unless you've actually checked. However, it is very unlikely that there is a black widow in the banana bowl so it's reasonable to not believe that there is a black widow in the banana bowl, this doesn't require you to believe that there isn't a black widow in the banana bowl.

Now that's ridiculous...
Look at the links in the quote, you're looking ridiculous.
n. ... pagan
...
2. One who has no religion...
n. ... heathen
...
2. a. One who is regarded as irreligious...

I give you: Heathenism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=heathenism).

Irreligeous. Could that be used to describe people that don't believe in god(s)? And then we call the people that think/reason/believe/know there is/are no god(s) atheists.

So then you'll have irreligeous atheists and atheists.


Poop. I think we'll never get it defined. Someone should read the other thread to (completely) and then try to come up with a definition. No matter how long it will be.

I still think we need to know just what God is before we can make any statement to the effect of disbelief in it. My God could be another man's "Nature", which could be yet another's "Gaia effect". Without a consistent definition of God, how can we say we do or don't believe it exists, or even that we believe it doesn't exist?

The conclusion that there is no God.


A conclusion arrived at, not by certainty; or evidence....But by a belief Hence, it is a faith

Atheism: the disbelief in the existance of a god or gods. (OED)
End of discussion. Spending pages arguing over semantics won't do anyone any good. Maybe if you tried to discuss the merits of atheism or why you became one in a sensible manner, you might find it more worthwhile.

A conclusion arrived at, not by certainty; or evidence....But by a belief Hence, it is a faith

Or a suspicion. Or a thought. An idea. Theory. Principle. Hypothesis.

Should I go on?

Look at the links in the quote, you're looking ridiculous.There's a few more definitions there than just those you posted though. Under most, pagans can be just as religious as anyone else.

All in all, 'pagan' is not a good term for the non-religious because of this; since it can just as well just mean differently-religious. And similarly with 'heathen'.

Irreligeous. Could that be used to describe people that don't believe in god(s)?
Yeah, but I'm kind of using to describe the folks that don't get any representation. The rare ones, that have never been exposed to any sorts of theism or atheism, and have no belief whatsoever on the wholse subject. I met one in Lansing, Michigan one time. Nice girl.

Atheism: the disbelief in the existance of a god or gods. (OED)
End of discussion. Spending pages arguing over semantics won't do anyone any good. Maybe if you tried to discuss the merits of atheism or why you became one in a sensible manner, you might find it more worthwhile.

Like I suggested.

Yeah, but I'm kind of using to describe the folks that don't get any representation. The rare ones, that have never been exposed to any sorts of theism or atheism, and have no belief whatsoever on the wholse subject. I met one in Lansing, Michigan one time. Nice girl.

Wouldn't that be non-conformist?

There's a few more definitions there than just those you posted though. Under most, pagans can be just as religious as anyone else.

All in all, 'pagan' is not a good term for the non-religious because of this; since it can just as well just mean differently-religious. And similarly with 'heathen'.
I realise that, which is why I censored it, as I as focousing on that one definition. OK, so 'pagan' and 'heathen' are out, but it would be so nice to use them in the flow of general conversation again...

Wouldn't that be non-conformist?
No, more like "in the dark". The parents could have very well been though.

No, more like "in the dark". The parents could have very well been though.

It's nice to be like that though. You don't worry about a lot of things that way.

It's nice to be like that though. You don't worry about a lot of things that way.
Is there a single word for that, though? Specifically without the baggage 'pagan' and 'heathen' carry?

Atheism: the disbelief in the existance of a god or gods. (OED)
End of discussion. Spending pages arguing over semantics won't do anyone any good.
At the minute, the discussion seems to be on the semantics, so why not just play along? It's completely frivolous, but fun nonetheless.

Anyway, if I do not know what God is, surely I might believe in something that would be considered God without believing it to be God? Would I then be an Atheist, even when I believe in something that would be called God?

Is there a single word for that, though? Specifically without the baggage 'pagan' and 'heathen' carry?

Peasant. :p

Peasant.
But this person didn't belong to the European Class System! Nor did were they uneducated! They belonged to the modern Middle Class! That word also has emotion bagagge that includes oppression, farming, and - dare I say it - lack of hygine!

You just satisfy yourself, I'll keep looking! ;)

Atheism: the belief that there is no God
atheism

unbelief in God or deities: disbelief in the existence of God or deities

A lack of a belief in supernatural forces.

Are atheists allowed to believe in ghosts? I dont believe in anything but I would still consider myself an atheist if I believed in ghosts but nothing else religious. and what about pshchics, or superstitions. how much crap can a person believe before they are nolonger classed an atheist?

There are really two major definitions of atheism.

In one, someone has no belief in God, but does not rule out the possibility that one (or more) might exist.

In another, the statement is that there absolutely is no God - much more of a belief statement.

It is probably important, when discussing them, to distinguish between the two.


Theism: The belief in a God or gods.
Religion: Beliefs about said deit(ies)
Organized religion: I hierarchy set up based in beliefs about deities

Agnosticism: The viewpoint that one can never know for certain if deit(ies) exist. (Note that this means one can be an agnostic and an atheist, or an agnostic and a theist)

There are really two major definitions of atheism.

In one, someone believes in no God, but does not rule out the possibility that one (or more) might exist.

In another, the statement is that there absolutely is no God - much more of a belief statement.

It is probably important, when discussing them, to distinguish between the two.


Theism: The belief in a God or gods.
Religion: Beliefs about said deit(ies)
Organized religion: I hierarchy set up based in beliefs about deities

Agnosticism: The viewpoint that one can never know for certain if deit(ies) exist. (Note that this means one can be an agnostic and an atheist, or an agnostic and a theist)

Oh. Agnosticism. I was wondering when someone would bring it up.

Certainly not all Atheists have identical beliefs, nor do all Theists. However, there is a core of beliefs common to most athiests. While not all atheists believe all the following, all of the following are believed by atheists:

-True Atheists believe that only the cosmos exists. God did not create man; man created God.

-The universe is eternal. If it is not eternal, then it came from nothing and by nothing. It is self-sustaining and self perpetuating.

-Atheists affirm the reality of evil, and deny the reality of God. They believe theists are inconsistant in trying to hold both realitys.

-A human being is matter in motion with no immortal soul. There is no mind apart from the brain.

-No moral absolutes exist, (or certainly no "divinely authorized" absolutes.)

-Atheists see no eternal destiny for individual persons, (Though they do speak of a kind of 'collective' immortality of the race) Many Atheists are utopians.

Most atheist hold to at least one of these ideas.

There you have it, a definative set of beliefs Athiests hold to. There is no certainty, or evidence to confirm that any of these statements are true. Therefore they are a belief, and as such a statement of faith.

Certainly not all Atheists have identical beliefs, nor do all Theists. However, there is a core of beliefs common to most athiests. While not all atheists believe all the following, all of the following are believed by atheists:

-True Atheists believe that only the cosmos exists. God did not create man; man created God.

-The universe is eternal. If it is not eternal, then it came from nothing and by nothing. It is self-sustaining and self perpetuating.

-Atheists affirm the reality of evil, and deny the reality of God. They believe theists are inconsistant in trying to hold both realitys.

-A human being is matter in motion with no immortal soul. There is no mind apart from the brain.

-No moral absolutes exist, (or certainly no "divinely authorized" absolutes.)

-Atheists see no eternal destiny for individual persons, (Though they do speak of a kind of 'collective' immortality of the race) Many Atheists are utopians.

Most atheist hold to at least one of these ideas.

There you have it, a definative set of beliefs Athiests hold to. There is no certainty, or evidence to confirm that any of these statements are true. Therefore they are a belief, and as such a statement of faith.

Or a strong intuition. Suspicion. Hypothesis. Theory.

Or a strong intuition. Suspicion. Hypothesis. Theory.

We theists also have such "strong intuitions, Suspicion, Hypothesis, and Theories..... Only difference is; We have a word for it -Faith

There are really two major definitions of atheism.

In one, someone believes in no God, but does not rule out the possibility that one (or more) might exist.

In another, the statement is that there absolutely is no God - much more of a belief statement.

Ummmm you do realize you used 'Belief', or 'believe' for both of these statements.

You just contradicted yourself by implying that the prior statement was not a belief statement. (Though you used the word 'Believe', to define it.)

We theists also have such "strong intuitions, Suspicion, Hypothesis, and Theories..... Only difference is; We have a word for it -Faith

You know that there is a reason we have different words, right?

It's to indicate the difference in meaning between 2 words. They are different.

However, there is a core belief common to athiests.
"Atheism" is a very simple term, with a very simple definition. An atheist is a person who disbelieves in God/god/gods. Disbelief may be a lack of belief in God, or a conscious belief that there IS NO GOD.
There you have it, a definative belief Athiests hold to.
I tinkered with the quotes, because I believe that you've thought way too much on the topic.

Oooh...Part two? Let me get the chart, just in case.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/Dragonkirby/Non-Kirby/SimpleChart.png
Beyond that, anything not Theist is Atheist.

Ummmm you do realize you used 'Belief', or 'believe' for both of these statements.

You just contradicted yourself by implying that the prior statement was not a belief statement. (Though you used the word 'Believe', to define it.)

It was poor wording. By "Believes in no God", I did not mean, "Believes there is no God". I meant, "has no belief in God."

Make more sense now?

It was poor wording. By "Believes in no God", I did not mean, "Believes there is no God". I meant, "has no belief in God."

Make more sense now?

...So what you are saying is that you are suspending judgement? That is quite different than being an Atheist, that's just being a Skeptic.

You know that there is a reason we have different words, right?

It's to indicate the difference in meaning between 2 words. They are different.

Then why are there Synonyms? 2 different words do not have to have different meanings. The english language is full of words with the same meanings.


Ever look through a Thesaurus?

...So what you are saying is that you are suspending judgement? That is quite different than being an Atheist, that's just being a Skeptic.

The only thing quite different from being an Atheist is being a Theist.

Oooh...Part two? Let me get the chart, just in case.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/Dragonkirby/Non-Kirby/SimpleChart.png
I don't understand your reasoning behind the chart.
For any one point on the top chart, does it correspond to the same point on the bottom chart?
Thus making Agnostic Theists, Gnostic Atheists, et cetera?

Then why are there Synonyms? 2 different words do not have to have different meanings. The english language is full of words with the same meanings.


Ever look through a Thesaurus?
yes, but thesauri (thesauruses? thesaurii? what the deuce!) are misleading because synonums usually have different connotation.

I don't understand your reasoning behind the chart.
For any one point on the top chart, does it correspond to the same point on the bottom chart?
Thus making Agnostic Theists, Gnostic Atheists, et cetera?
yes. somewhere in the middle of the Episode I someone gave those definitions.

LOL i think we should call the first thread Episode I: the Phantom Definition or something along those lines.

yes. somewhere in the middle of the Episode I someone gave those definitions.

LOL i think we should call the first thread Episode I: the Phantom Definition or something along those lines.
I can look up the definitions, but I'm asking Dinaverg to enlighten me / expalin his reasoning 'cause I didn't get it. :)

yes. somewhere in the middle of the Episode I someone gave those definitions.

LOL i think we should call the first thread Episode I: the Phantom Definition or something along those lines.
Then we have Episode III: The Revenge of the BAAWA to look forward to. :p

Then we have Episode III: The Revenge of the BAAWA to look forward to. :p
yes but then maybe someone will come along later to lead a new revolt against BAAWA and we'll have Episode IV: A New Hope. don't even need to change that one.

...So what you are saying is that you are suspending judgement? That is quite different than being an Atheist, that's just being a Skeptic.

"Atheism" is often used to refer to a lack of belief in God. It isn't really the same as "suspending judgement". It's more like the following:

I do not believe that there is a mammal that eats nylon. I have no reason to believe there is a mammal that obtains nutrients from nylon, therefore, I do not think it exists. However, I know there is a possibility that it might exist, so I will not make a definitive statement that such a creature does not exist. I will only go so far as to say that I do not believe one exists.

The other type, of course, would be for me to say, "No mammal that obtains nutrients from nylon exists, period."


LOL i think we should call the first thread Episode I: the Phantom Definition or something along those lines.
Then we have Episode III: The Revenge of the BAAWA to look forward to.

Oh, fun! It's always good to make sure everyone realizes that bigotry and militant attitudes are not confined to the religious..... =(

Oh, fun! It's always good to make sure everyone realizes that bigotry and militant attitudes are not confined to the religious..... =(
I think that people start with certain attitudes and then find an excuse to follow that attitude, rather than the other way round. It's irritating when people say things such as 'religion causes violence', because it is always the opposite; people are violent, and then use religion as their excuse.

I don't understand your reasoning behind the chart.
For any one point on the top chart, does it correspond to the same point on the bottom chart?
Thus making Agnostic Theists, Gnostic Atheists, et cetera?

Yeah, pretty much. *nod* Yay charts!

Oh, fun! It's always good to make sure everyone realizes that bigotry and militant attitudes are not confined to the religious..... =(
you forgot Episode IV. and i fail to see how this is bigotry, unless you consider people who cannot agree on one definition to be another race of human entirely.

perhaps we should call them Homo insapiens.

you forgot Episode IV. and i fail to see how this is bigotry, unless you consider people who cannot agree on one definition to be another race of human entirely.

I was referring specifically to BAWAA, who labels anyone who doesn't agree with atheism as "unthinking".

Yeah, pretty much. *nod* Yay charts!
Eh, if they were superimposed upon one another it would have been clearer to me. I look at them and think, "Hm, two graphs, they must be unrelated...".
All in all, good work. It could improve, but I can't think of anything major right now. If you ( You made that, right? ) ever feel like revising it, I'd try an (x,y) coordinate plane, since most people nowadays think that's cool.

Eh, if they were superimposed upon one another it would have been clearer to me. I look at them and think, "Hm, two graphs, they must be unrelated...".
All in all, good work. It could improve, but I can't think of anything major right now. If you ( You made that, right? ) ever feel like revising it, I'd try an (x,y) coordinate plane, since most people nowadays think that's cool.

Yeah, probably, but the Atheism thread was moving about 15 posts a minute and I didn't have much time. ^_^;;

I was referring specifically to BAWAA, who labels anyone who doesn't agree with atheism as "unthinking".
Well, his "thinking" earned him a one month holiday, and there is really no sense calling him out since he is not here to defend his way of "thinking"?

yes but then maybe someone will come along later to lead a new revolt against BAAWA and we'll have Episode IV: A New Hope. don't even need to change that one.

I was actually thinking about doing that.