NationStates Jolt Archive

I gotta be honest with you ... things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty. A little piece of my faith in humanity has just died.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/15/ok.missinggirl/index.html

*sigh*

Hoppy Easter, yo.

I gotta be honest with you ... things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty. A little piece of my faith in humanity has just died.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/15/ok.missinggirl/index.html

*sigh*

Hoppy Easter, yo.
Animals like that are so far beyond being "human" that it boggles the mind. I heard this on this morning's news and had to change the channel. :(

I really hope there is a place in hell where this animal will have to suffer what he did to her -- eternally.

Ugh. :(

I really hope there is a place in hell where this animal will have to suffer what he did to her -- eternally.

If not, his prison experience will be close to it.

I don't know what to say. Anyone capable of doing this cannot be sane.

if your anti-death penatly stance is based on murderers being misunderstood maybe you do need to rethink it.

If not, his prison experience will be close to it.

There is that, yes. This man will be a hero to none.

if your anti-death penatly stance is based on murderers being misunderstood maybe you do need to rethink it.

No, not at all. My stance is based on killing being wrong - whether legal or not.

I gotta be honest with you ... things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty. A little piece of my faith in humanity has just died.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/15/ok.missinggirl/index.html

*sigh*

Hoppy Easter, yo.

Some people just can't live with the rest of us. And despite what psychologists say, there is no cure for them,

Offing them is the best option, really. It's not a justice thing: just pragmatism. I'm surprised that you are anti-death penalty.

Actually, it got me thinking if we shouldn't just lighten up on the whole "cruel and inhuman punishment" idea.

No, not at all. My stance is based on killing being wrong - whether legal or not.

Yeah, I agree. It doesn't change my stance on the death penalty either.

It's not a justice thing: just pragmatism. I'm surprised that you are anti-death penalty.

I'm not a very pragmatic person.

I gotta be honest with you ... things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty. Yes, you should.
A little piece of my faith in humanity has just died.
Yes, it always does with stories like this. Unfathomable. :(

There is that, yes. This man will be a hero to none.
Convicts are not noted for being kind to pedophiles, since many of them were sexually abused as children. He'll probably wind up being in a separate section of prison all by his lonesome.

You do NOT want to know what I would do with such an animal. :mad:

Yes, you should.

Yes, it always does with stories like this. Unfathomable. :(
Just one small point ... this thing is not human.

Just one small point ... this thing is not human.
Well, you know, he is, which is what makes this so horrible in the first place.

You do NOT want to know what I would do with such an animal. :mad:

The pictures of the kid touch me deeply. She looks like one of my favorite students and I imagine she was a pretty cool kid.

You know I'm not a violent man, but I would seriously consider tearing off that man's balls and feeding them to him.

Well, you know, he is, which is what makes this so horrible in the first place.
Only by biological definition. Not by any other measure.

The pictures of the kid touch me deeply. She looks like one of my favorite students and I imagine she was a pretty cool kid.

You know I'm not a violent man, but I would seriously consider tearing off that man's balls and feeding them to him.
I have no problem with that whatsoever. When you're done, give "it" to me. I have plans for this animal. :D

Only by biological definition. Not by any other measure.
Which is exactly why things like this make you lose faith in humanity, bit by bit by bit. If all that makes us human is biology, we will have failed miserably.

Convicts are not noted for being kind to pedophiles, since many of them were sexually abused as children. He'll probably wind up being in a separate section of prison all by his lonesome.

You do NOT want to know what I would do with such an animal. :mad:
We can only hope that this fact is 'forgotten' temporarily by the prison service. I'm sure a few days in general population would be good for his rehabilitation.

Shit like this is why I support the death penalty.

To think how many people die cold and starving on the streets in this world who DON'T commit a crime. And then people would prefer he live out a warm, well-fed life in prison where if he's mistreated by the guards he can sue them and make more money to write his bestselling memoirs while watching fucking cable TV.

Being monstrous to monsters is still monstrous.

Also, did anyone else notice the DA's quotes made it seem like he knew exactly what happened? Maybe the guy confessed, but you would think he would have been charged already if he had confessed.

Shit like this is why I support the death penalty.

To think how many people die cold and starving on the streets in this world who DON'T commit a crime. And then people would prefer he live out a warm, well-fed life in prison where if he's mistreated by the guards he can sue them and make more money to write his bestselling memoirs while watching fucking cable TV.

Maybe you should read up on what happens to child rapists and murderers in prison. A lot of criminals have kids too, y'know. The rest of his life won't be comfortable.

No, not at all. My stance is based on killing being wrong - whether legal or not.
Same here, except I will diverge in cases of self-defence. In any case, this does make you want to re-examine your position on the death penalty. This man does not even deserve to leech on tax-payer money and be put in prison...

I really hope there is a place in hell where this animal will have to suffer what he did to her -- eternally.

You know what, this is one of the time I wish Hell existed. He'd probably have his own 12th level.

I gotta be honest with you ... things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty. A little piece of my faith in humanity has just died.

I'm not for the death penalty, but I can totally see where you're coming from. That is just sick. How can someone dispose of human life so easily? It was 'carefully planned', just thinking that this was part of this guy's schedule creeps me out...

things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty.

I don't know you to be so weak of conviction. Faltering to a base revenge instinct is easy. Holding on to the principle that what this person did is wrong even for other people to do, including the government, now that is the kind of strength I've come to expect from you.

Please, snap back to your senses.

Being monstrous to monsters is still monstrous.

Also, did anyone else notice the DA's quotes made it seem like he knew exactly what happened? Maybe the guy confessed, but you would think he would have been charged already if he had confessed.
Gah, I don't even want to *read* the story again, but seeing how he actually let them search his apartment, I'd guess he confessed everything right then and there.

We can only hope that this fact is 'forgotten' temporarily by the prison service. I'm sure a few days in general population would be good for his rehabilitation.

Aye ... but we have a system in place. Cruel and unusual punishment is still wrong, even if it is a human monster. Our Constitution doesn't pick and choose.

To throw the man in general population, while justified, denies him the right to protection under the law.

Please, snap back to your senses.

No worries, there. Continue in the thread. You'll find me arguing for his protection. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to think so, but even he has rights.

I'm not for the death penalty, but I can totally see where you're coming from. That is just sick. How can someone dispose of human life so easily? It was 'carefully planned', just thinking that this was part of this guy's schedule creeps me out...

Compared to what his life in prison is going to be like, he may end up wishing he had gotten the death penalty.

Maybe you should read up on what happens to child rapists and murderers in prison. A lot of criminals have kids too, y'know. The rest of his life won't be comfortable.

Yeah, so maybe you think letting prisoners punish prisoners is better, makes your hands feel squeaky clean.

And not all child murderers get put into general population. You have no control over it, and you really shouldn't count on criminals doing crimes as a means of pursuing justice.

Same here, except I will diverge in cases of self-defence. In any case, this does make you want to re-examine your position on the death penalty. This man does not even deserve to leech on tax-payer money and be put in prison...

Actually, it's more expensive to keep a man on death row than it is to give him life imprisonment. If we're talking purely about tax-payer expense ...

Aye ... but we have a system in place. Cruel and unusual punishment is still wrong, even if it is a human monster. Our Constitution doesn't pick and choose.

To throw the man in general population, while justified, denies him the right to protection under the law.
Ya, that damned equality thing. Well I guess it has its good sides too.

Actually, it's more expensive to keep a man on death row than it is to give him life imprisonment. If we're talking purely about tax-payer expense ...
How come?

To throw the man in general population, while justified,

This is where you're starting to get me a little worried for you. "Justified?" I don't know you to be the kind of person that sees a wrong justify another wrong. You OK?

Which is exactly why things like this make you lose faith in humanity, bit by bit by bit. If all that makes us human is biology, we will have failed miserably.
Totally agreed with. :fluffle:

Ya, that damned equality thing. Well I guess it has its good sides too.
Either way, he will be incarcerated and contained. So it is unlikely he will threaten anyone ever again. Outside prison walls anyway.

How come?

Dunno. Studies have been done, though.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=481
http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html

"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

I'm not a very pragmatic person.

Then you should forgive him.

I doubt very much that someone like this can help themselves.

Though personally I'd off the fucker and shed one bloody tear.

Yeah, so maybe you think letting prisoners punish prisoners is better, makes your hands feel squeaky clean.

I don't think it's right, just how it is.

And not all child murderers get put into general population. You have no control over it, and you really shouldn't count on criminals doing crimes as a means of pursuing justice.

I don't consider it justice.

And i've already stated this doesn't change my opposition to the death penalty anyway.

I don't think it's right, just how it is.


Unless it's how it's not.


I don't consider it justice.

And i've already stated this doesn't change my opposition to the death penalty anyway.

So what would you consider as justice for this man? Life imprisonment with zero abuse from other prisoners then?

Yeah, so maybe you think letting prisoners punish prisoners is better, makes your hands feel squeaky clean.

And not all child murderers get put into general population. You have no control over it, and you really shouldn't count on criminals doing crimes as a means of pursuing justice.
Ever heard of "hyperbole?" Go look it up. :rolleyes:

This is where you're starting to get me a little worried for you. "Justified?" I don't know you to be the kind of person that sees a wrong justify another wrong. You OK?

Yeah I'm ok. This particular story just upsets me. Touches me on many levels. I'll be fine. I am merely having an emotional response.

Dunno. Studies have been done, though.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=481
http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html

"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )
Thanks for the links. You would expect it to be cheaper than imprisoning a person for life. Although from that citation, it would appear to be the workings of the justice system that are responsible.

Ever heard of "hyperbole?" Go look it up. :rolleyes:

Okay.

A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.

And this relates to the conversation...how?

Yeah I'm ok. This particular story just upsets me. Touches me on many levels. I'll be fine. I am merely having an emotional response.

*pats*

There, there.

Then you should forgive him.

That, I have already done. I only hope, for his sake, that if there is a God, he does too.

I gotta be honest with you ... things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty. A little piece of my faith in humanity has just died.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/15/ok.missinggirl/index.html

*sigh*

Hoppy Easter, yo.
Ha. You think this is bad? You obviously haven't been to Africa. What's with people thinking crap like this is the worst possible things humans can do? Seriously people, this is MINIMAL.

You know, I never really liked that kind of arguing. I know what you mean, and I can see how you would say that to people who are in favour of CP, but it's really just bigotry in itself, in a way. While I would certainly abhor and despise this guy more than I would, say, somebody who killed people while robbing a bank, I can't really see how you can advocate his not being executed but can advocate his punishment being meted out by other prisoners (which really could mean anything all the way to him being killed).

Hear, hear!

*pats*

There, there.

Heh ... well I do have three daughters. The particular brutality of this story and the nature of how it occurred (did I spell that right?) makes me want to leash my daughters to me and never let them out of my sight for a second.

Of course, that would be counterproductive to their upbringing, so I won't. But still ...

You know, I never really liked that kind of arguing. I know what you mean, and I can see how you would say that to people who are in favour of CP, but it's really just bigotry in itself, in a way. While I would certainly abhor and despise this guy more than I would, say, somebody who killed people while robbing a bank, I can't really see how you can advocate his not being executed but can advocate his punishment being meted out by other prisoners (which really could mean anything all the way to him being killed).
It happens either way though, whether you advocate it or not.

Heh ... well I do have three daughters. The particular brutality of this story and the nature of how it occurred (did I spell that right?) makes me want to leash my daughters to me and never let them out of my sight for a second.

Of course, that would be counterproductive to their upbringing, so I won't. But still ...
Just make sure they are aware of what goes on out there.

Ha. You think this is bad? You obviously haven't been to Africa. What's with people thinking crap like this is the worst possible things humans can do? Seriously people, this is MINIMAL.

Yes, I know. That, however, doesn't diminish the severity of this particular story.

It happens either way though, whether you advocate it or not.

Then it must be brought to a halt.

.. what would you consider as justice for this man? Life imprisonment with zero abuse from other prisoners then?
"Justice" is a difficult concept at the functional level. The question in my mind is: what sort of "justice" is it that this animal could wind up being supported in comfortable style for the rest of his life, while the little girl he raped, suffocated, beat with a blunt object, partially cut off her head, and was going to eat is dead forever. If that's "justice" I want no part of it. :mad:

Ha. You think this is bad? You obviously haven't been to Africa. What's with people thinking crap like this is the worst possible things humans can do? Seriously people, this is MINIMAL.

Somehow I don't think I want to know. I plan on stuffing myself full of chocolate today.

Just make sure they are aware of what goes on out there.

I find it extremely sad that I have to. *grumbles*

It is tough deciding what justice is for a situation like this. I personally don't like the death penalty, but I also don't like the arguments against the death penalty.

I think I would like to see this guy die.

Unless it's how it's not.

o.O

Uh, yeah.

So what would you consider as justice for this man? Life imprisonment with zero abuse from other prisoners then?

Nothing. Justice isn't possible. There's no way that the girl can be brought back. There is no way his crime can be matched without resorting to an equal level of brutality, and sinking to his level.

You know, I never really liked that kind of arguing. I know what you mean, and I can see how you would say that to people who are in favour of CP, but it's really just bigotry in itself, in a way. While I would certainly abhor and despise this guy more than I would, say, somebody who killed people while robbing a bank, I can't really see how you can advocate his not being executed but can advocate his punishment being meted out by other prisoners (which really could mean anything all the way to him being killed).

You get me wrong, i'm not advocating it at all (surely you know me better than that?!?), but the ridiculous notion that he would be living a comfortable lifetime stay in a holiday hostel had to be dealt with.

Hear, hear!
Whatever.
It happens either way though, whether you advocate it or not.
Yeah, I deleted the post, I hadn't seen that Kanabia had already basically addressed the point in that vein in an earlier post (this thread is moving too fast for me).

It happens either way though, whether you advocate it or not.

Yup.

Okay.

A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.

And this relates to the conversation...how?
It relates because if you knew Kervalia, you would know he is a staunch supporter of abolishing the death penalty and was speaking in hyperbole in his earlier post.

"Justice" is a difficult concept at the functional level. The question in my mind is: what sort of "justice" is it that this animal could wind up being supported in comfortable style for the rest of his life, while the little girl he raped, suffocated, beat with a blunt object, partially cut off her head, and was going to eat is dead forever. If that's "justice" I want no part of it. :mad:

Oh, well I totally agree.

And people say there's no deterrance value in the death penalty. That may be, but only because we're not doing it right. Executions should be broadcast on live TV. Slow motion, instant replay!

Heh ... well I do have three daughters. The particular brutality of this story and the nature of how it occurred (did I spell that right?) makes me want to leash my daughters to me and never let them out of my sight for a second.

Of course, that would be counterproductive to their upbringing, so I won't. But still ...

We cannot let ourselves be controlled by criminals and disturbed people such as these. If we did, and let our superior principles be eroded by them, well, I never would have left the house after I was gaybashed and would have demanded Åke Green's head on a spike, freedom of speech be damned! I did neither. Nor will you.

Hope that's a comfort.

Nothing. Justice isn't possible. There's no way that the girl can be brought back.

True.

Things like this need to be caught in the act ... by the father of the little girl.

Then justice would prevail.

(this thread is moving too fast for me).
LOL! And you can say that of this thead after posting in both the "Whatcha look like?" and "Choose wisely" threads? Riiiight! :D

Then it must be brought to a halt.
I concur. I have little taste for the notion of lynch mobs and such.

Oh, well I totally agree.

And people say there's no deterrance value in the death penalty. That may be, but only because we're not doing it right. Executions should be broadcast on live TV. Slow motion, instant replay!

Congratulations! Whether you're joking or not, you just proved yourself equally as morbid as those who you would love to see killed in all sorts of exciting ways from your comfortable sofa in your living room.

(yeah, yeah, I know, I took the bait.)

Nothing. Justice isn't possible. There's no way that the girl can be brought back. There is no way his crime can be matched without resorting to an equal level of brutality, and sinking to his level.


Wow. Might as well just scrap the justice system, eh?


You get me wrong, i'm not advocating it at all (surely you know me better than that?!?), but the ridiculous notion that he would be living a comfortable lifetime stay in a holiday hostel had to be dealt with.

I don't see that it's ridiculous. I think what scares you is that it's not ridiculous at all, but a very real possibility.

Whatever.

Well, that was a rude way of acknowledging supportive acknowledgement. Where is that quivering smiley when I need it...

We cannot let ourselves be controlled by criminals and disturbed people such as these. If we did, and let our superior principles be eroded by them, well, I never would have left the house after I was gaybashed and would have demanded Åke Green's head on a spike, freedom of speech be damned! I did neither. Nor will you.

Hope that's a comfort.
"Superior principles" my ass! "Superior principles" only apply to those minimally human. :mad:

I find it extremely sad that I have to. *grumbles*
Better that than you be sad for not having done so.

Congratulations! Whether you're joking or not, you just proved yourself equally as morbid as those who you would love to see killed in all sorts of exciting ways from your comfortable sofa in your living room.

(yeah, yeah, I know, I took the bait.)

Morbid, sure. But not criminal. I don't advocate this for the innocent. I don't get my jollies raping and killing little girls. Trying to draw a line of similarity between us is like trying to compare prison guards to kidnappers or tax collectors to muggers.

I gotta be honest with you ... things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty. A little piece of my faith in humanity has just died.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/15/ok.missinggirl/index.html

*sigh*

Hoppy Easter, yo.

Can words fail everyone so this thread can go away?? it is taking up valuable space and time that could be spent on important things, like the discussion of peeps....

"Superior principles" my ass! "Superior principles" only apply to those minimally human. :mad:
Eut, he isn't arguing that the prisoners be put in 5 star luxury hotels. Merely that we do not turn ourselves into animals in our handling of them.

Wow. Might as well just scrap the justice system, eh?

:rolleyes:

Sure, why not?

I don't see that it's ridiculous. I think what scares you is that it's not ridiculous at all, but a very real possibility.

Hey, if it's really so great, why aren't people queueing up to get in?

"Superior principles" my ass!

Your ass is mine, then.

"Superior principles" only apply to those minimally human. :mad:

Well, then we'd have them stripped from you, now, wouldn't we? Fortunately, we better people won't.

You get me wrong, i'm not advocating it at all (surely you know me better than that?!?), but the ridiculous notion that he would be living a comfortable lifetime stay in a holiday hostel had to be dealt with.
Man, I even delete stuff too slowly. Sorry about that.

Of course I know you weren't advocating it, that's not what I meant.

I meant that the argument of "I'm against the death penalty, but don't be worried about him having too good of a time in prison, because you know what they do to guys like him in there, right?" is a hypocritical one to make.

It is only used in cases like this to placate the proponents of capital punishment by throwing them a bone, when in fact the argument should read "I'm against the death penalty, but don't be worried about him having too good of a time in prison, because you know how terrible it is to have to spend the rest of your fucking life in prison, right?"

Better that than you be sad for not having done so.

Agreed. 100%.

I'm anti-death penalty, but not because I think there should be mercy. It's just a shame to waste a body like that when there's so much more you can do with someone who has forfeited their rights. This guy should live in shit for the rest of his days.

OK, I just read the article again, thouroughly.

And I must say, I hope the 'person" that did this is raped with a chainsaw, shot, burned, and dumped in the nearest river.

Then it must be brought to a halt.

How?

You can't change people, and it is not your job to try.

Eut, he isn't arguing that the prisoners be put in 5 star luxury hotels. Merely that we do not turn ourselves into animals in our handling of them.
I don't consider myself an "animal." I consider him an animal.

Hell! Give me a frackking knife! I'll do it! :mad:

Man, I even delete stuff too slowly. Sorry about that.

Of course I know you weren't advocating it, that's not what I meant.

I meant that the argument of "I'm against the death penalty, but don't be worried about him having too good of a time in prison, because you know what they do to guys like him in there, right?" is a hypocritical onw to make.

It is only used in cases like this to placate the proponents of capital punishment by throwing them a bone, when in fact the argument should read "I'm against the death penalty, but don't be worried about him having too good of a time in prison, because you know how terrible it is to have to spend the rest of your fucking life in prison, right?"

Sigh. OK, i'm sorry. Perhaps I should make the assertion that he should be let out into the community? I'll keep my mouth shut since I can't please either side of this stupid debate.

Hey, if it's really so great, why aren't people queueing up to get in?

The prison population has been skyrocketing and will continue to do so.

So if you ask me, they are. They think, why not? I can do the time. It's not like they put you in a chain gang or send you off to Siberia. And then I don't have to worry about getting a job, food or shelter.

Your ass is mine, then.
You wish! LOL! :D

I don't consider myself an "animal." I consider him an animal.

Hell! Give me a frackking knife! I'll do it! :mad:
Are you not giving into the same base impulses though? You will see, upon closer examination, that you are. Self-defence is about the only case in which killing can be justified. Killing out of vengeance is murder.

Well, that was a rude way of acknowledging supportive acknowledgement. Where is that quivering smiley when I need it...
Here: http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sad021.gif
And yeah, sorry, I'm just a bit weary of you lately, and didn't feel like trying to figure out if you were indeed being supportive or were making fun of my not-so-well-phrased post.

How?

A zero-tolerance policy towards prison abuse, and also better prisons where prisoner violence can be spatially counteracted. We are not all nations who have a problem with prison violence - protecting prisoners from prisoners is doable, and so is minimising prison abuse, whether it be by custodians, or the inmates themselves.

You can't change people, and it is not your job to try.

Not my job, but certainly the job of the people who run prisons.

The prison population has been skyrocketing and will continue to do so.

Well, to be fair, some of that has to do with the laws and our criminal justice system. The United States likes to put people in prison. Just check our numbers versus other industrialized nations.

We have laws against plants. Plants!

Here: http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sad021.gif
And yeah, sorry, I'm just a bit weary of you lately, and didn't feel like trying to figure out if you were indeed being supportive or were making fun of my not-so-well-phrased post.

Sowibi would kill me.

Sigh. OK, i'm sorry. Perhaps I should make the assertion that he should be let out into the community? I'll keep my mouth shut since I can't please either side of this stupid debate.
Don't be silly. I'm not even saying that I haven't used (and will most likely use in the future) that very same argument when being confronted with people who disagree with me on capital punishment, because I do know exactly what you mean by "trying to make people see that a life sentence isn't fun and games".

I only picked on you because yours was the last post in a row to make that argument, and it just really smacks of hypocrisy. As I'm sure you well know it does.

And I'm always a big proponent of pointing out my own side's hypocrisies before the other side does.

A zero-tolerance policy towards prison abuse, and also better prisons where prisoner violence can be spatially counteracted. We are not all nations who have a problem with prison violence - protecting prisoners from prisoners is doable, and so is minimising prison abuse, whether it be by custodians, or the inmates themselves.


There is prison violence in Sweden also. These are not good people Fass, and when you lock them up with each other, they do bad things.

It's inevitable.

Well, to be fair, some of that has to do with the laws and our criminal justice system. The United States likes to put people in prison. Just check our numbers versus other industrialized nations.

We have laws against plants. Plants!

Indeed. And because we have so many, erm, plant growers in prison, the prisons change to be more accomodating to people whose crimes are purely agricultural. Hence cable TV, etc etc.

At least thats my theory.

I wouldn't be opposed to the life imprisonment vs death penalty so much, if I didn't know that a prison, to a violent criminal, is just like society - full of people to prey on, people who are not violent criminals, people who cannot run away. It's like instead of starving these bastards, we give them a four-course meal.

Sowibi would kill me.
Not to lower this even further into saccharine depths, but: Aww.

There is prison violence in Sweden also. These are not good people Fass, and when you lock them up with each other, they do bad things.

It's inevitable.
Indeed, although prison authorities could do their best to minimise this.

Don't be silly. I'm not even saying that I haven't used (and will most likely use in the future) that very same argument when being confronted with people who disagree with me on capital punishment, because I do know exactly what you mean by "trying to make people see that a life sentence isn't fun and games".

I only picked on you because yours was the last post in a row to make that argument, and it just really smacks of hypocrisy. As I'm sure you well know it does.

And I'm always a big proponent of pointing out my own side's hypocrisies before the other side does.

OK, whatever.

Eh...

Give this guy his peaceful, drug induced death?

Not before we give him his lifetime of punishment, I say.

There is prison violence in Sweden also.

Of course there is. We are not resigned, to it, however, and I'm under the impression that it is at a lower end of the scale. Nevertheless, it is not tolerated - there are no "pound me in the ass federal" prisons where prisoner abuse and domination is, seemingly, more encouraged than combated.

These are not good people Fass, and when you lock them up with each other, they do bad things.

It's inevitable.

The only thing it is, is unacceptable. It will become inevitable once you give up.

Not to lower this even further into saccharine depths, but: Aww.

Or, perish the thought, she could stop sending me Duo Creme (http://veganbasics.com/g/veganbasics/a/LMSTSO0072XPN.jpg) from Germany. A fate worse than death, by all accounts.

Or, perish the thought, she could stop sending me Duo Creme (http://veganbasics.com/g/veganbasics/a/LMSTSO0072XPN.jpg) from Germany. A fate worse than death, by all accounts.
I'm not even sure if I want to know what vegan fake-Nutella tastes like, so I'll just take your word for it.

Of course there is. We are not resigned, to it, however, and I'm under the impression that it is at a lower end of the scale. Nevertheless, it is not tolerated - there are no "pound me in the ass federal" prisons where prisoner abuse and domination is, seemingly, more encouraged than combated.


Federal time is easy time.

It's the state prison system that is the problem, most especially in the south and california.

Though New York is no picnic either.

And you can be as unresigned as you like. The fact is, the second that these people are left unsupervised, they start abusing each other. Short of permanent solitary confinement, there is nothing that can be done about it.

In any case, prisons are highly immoral.

Federal time is easy time.

It's the state prison system that is the problem, most especially in the south and california.

Though New York is no picnic either.

And you can be as unresigned as you like. The fact is, the second that these people are left unsupervised, they start abusing each other. Short of permanent solitary confinement, there is nothing that can be done about it.

In any case, prisons are highly immoral.

But morals are subjective.

I'm not even sure if I want to know what vegan fake-Nutella tastes like, so I'll just take your word for it.

She doesn't send me the vegan kind. That's just the picture I found. The one she sent contains milk.

And you can be as unresigned as you like. The fact is, the second that these people are left unsupervised, they start abusing each other.

I contest that.

Short of permanent solitary confinement, there is nothing that can be done about it.

And yet, somehow prison officials manage.

Just one small point ... this thing is not human.

He's not an animal either. Animals (except chimpanzees, who are genetically less than .5% away from humans) don't tend behave that way.

Regardless, he is one of the few types of criminals that I would peg for the death penalty - preceded by slow torture.

And yet, somehow prison officials manage.

And yet, somehow they don't. Because there is no prison system anywhere, without violence and rape.

It can be minimized, perhaps, but never eliminated.

But morals are subjective.

Fine, they contradict normative ethics then.

Fine, they contradict normative ethics then.

That's better. :p

Well, you know, he is, which is what makes this so horrible in the first place.What's scary about this is that he was an apparently normal person with nothing in his background to even remotely suggest this type of behaviour.Like it or not,it's enough to make you paranoid about people ,you never really know someone until something like this happens.Evil blends in very well with normality.

And yet, somehow they don't. Because there is no prison system anywhere, without violence and rape.

It can be minimized, perhaps, but never eliminated.

The goal should never be anything else than elimination of it. Every instance of it is a failure.

I gotta be honest with you ... things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty. A little piece of my faith in humanity has just died.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/15/ok.missinggirl/index.html

*sigh*

Hoppy Easter, yo.


This guy isnt part of humanity, so dont feel bad.

What will happen when they find the black bear that killed the 6yr old girl and mauled her family in Tn? They'll put it down.

Try and convict this guy beyond reasonable doubt, then put him down.

This guy isnt part of humanity, so dont feel bad.
On the contrary, this guy is a part of humanity. If you fail to acknowledge this, you fail to see the bigger problem - namely, how does a human being come to doing something like this?

Demonizing and dehumanizing never helps, except that you might sleep better at night.

I believe giving in to the natural desire for vengeace against this psychopath would dehumanize us all.

I'm still staunchly anti-death penalty.

I gotta be honest with you ... things like this make me question if I really should be anti-death penalty. A little piece of my faith in humanity has just died.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/15/ok.missinggirl/index.html

*sigh*

Hoppy Easter, yo.
It doesn't make me question my anti-death penalty stance, but it does make me question my support for anti-prison rape campaigns.

I believe giving in to the natural desire for vengeace against this psychopath would dehumanize us all.

I'm still staunchly anti-death penalty.
The death penalty is not vengeance, it's peace of mind. Prison rape is vengeance.

On the contrary, this guy is a part of humanity. If you fail to acknowledge this, you fail to see the bigger problem - namely, how does a human being come to doing something like this?

Demonizing and dehumanizing never helps, except that you might sleep better at night.


When they cease to be human. We've had thousands of years to consider this- why does someone else have to become a victim to a repeat offender?
Maybe mommy didnt look at him with loving eyes as a child. Maybe he had a drunk dad that beat him.
Maybe he was bored. I dont agree with sacraficing more victims.

Some people have little understanding of what some "humans" are capable of, so its easy for them to render a decision that makes them feel good and helps them sleep at night, as if they are open minded and intellectual. People that have never had a taste of true senseless violence personally.

Nope- A guy that premeditates and plans to lure, molest, rape, torture and ultimately kill a human-much less a little girl doesnt need "demonizing" or "dehumanizing"- he's already done that himself.

He just needs to be irradicated so people in touch with reality can go about their lives with one less needless threat.

I believe giving in to the natural desire for vengeace against this psychopath would dehumanize us all.

I'm still staunchly anti-death penalty.


No-vengeance would be if someone got their hands on this bastard before the law did and took out their hostility and anquish on him physically.

Trying him and convicting him beyond a reasonable doubt then executing him immediately isnt vengeance or revenge. Its eliminating the possibilty of him snaring an innocent again someday in the future.

<snip>

What he said.

When they cease to be human.
He hasn't ceased to be human. Again, that's the scary part.


We've had thousands of years to consider this- why does someone else have to become a victim to a repeat offender?
Maybe mommy didnt look at him with loving eyes as a child. Maybe he had a drunk dad that beat him.
Maybe he was bored. I dont agree with sacraficing more victims.

Some people have little understanding of what some "humans" are capable of, so its easy for them to render a decision that makes them feel good and helps them sleep at night, as if they are open minded and intellectual. People that have never had a taste of true senseless violence personally.

Nope- A guy that premeditates and plans to lure, molest, rape, torture and ultimately kill a human-much less a little girl doesnt need "demonizing" or "dehumanizing"- he's already done that himself.

He just needs to be irradicated so people in touch with reality can go about their lives with one less needless threat.
So do you believe it is a waste of time trying to figure out why he did this, so as to stop other people from doing it (or something like it) later?

The death penalty is not vengeance, it's peace of mind. Prison rape is vengeance.
But prison rape is arbitrary, and isn't (nor should it be) a government sanctioned form of punishment.

And when this guy is raping young criminals in jail, nobody will feel better for it...

He hasn't ceased to be human. Again, that's the scary part.


So do you believe it is a waste of time trying to figure out why he did this, so as to stop other people from doing it (or something like it) later?


But prison rape is arbitrary, and isn't (nor should it be) a government sanctioned form of punishment.

And when this guy is raping young criminals in jail, nobody will feel better for it...

In my opinion, he has ceased to be human. And its not like I have some lone, fringe idea.Enough people feel this way too.

It is a waste of time for the girl victim and her family. And his next potential victim.
They've been looking at this type of behavior for a while. It could be caused by eating Twinkies-or maybe some people are really,really sick.


Personally-I dont agree with the abuses that occur in prison. depending on the crime, I think imprisonment is punishment enough for those incarcerated. The fact that people are raped and beaten,abused while being locked up is something I dont like. I have no answers on how to stop that.

In my opinion, he has ceased to be human. And its not like I have some lone, fringe idea.Enough people feel this way too.
I understand what you mean, I just disagree because I feel that such dehumanization diminishes debates and gives a too simple (and in my opinion incorrect) answer to complex issues.

Oh well, another instance of agreeing to disagree is in order, I belive ;)


Personally-I dont agree with the abuses that occur in prison. depending on the crime, I think imprisonment is punishment enough for those incarcerated. The fact that people are raped and beaten,abused while being locked up is something I dont like.
Good to know :)

I understand what you mean, I just disagree because I feel that such dehumanization diminishes debates and gives a too simple (and in my opinion incorrect) answer to complex issues.

Oh well, another instance of agreeing to disagree is in order, I belive ;)


Good to know :)


I dont see it as "too simple"- I think the taking of another's life is a very serious thing-dont mistake my position in this matter as dismissing life. I think
the only alternative to execution is a life sentence,in maximum security is cruel and unsual. And asking people to guard a violent deranged person with nothing to lose isnt a good idea either.
I just think that limiting the potential victims is paramount, til someone is able to determine a solution.


Of course I agree with you that we disagree. There are times I share your postion on this matter. This particular instance just isnt isnt one though.

It doesnt mean I wont listen to and respect your opinion though.

I dont see it as "too simple"- I think the taking of another's life is a very serious thing-dont mistake my position in this matter as dismissing life. I think
the only alternative to execution is a life sentence,in maximum security is cruel and unsual. And asking people to guard a violent deranged person with nothing to lose isnt a good idea either.
I just think that limiting the potential victims is paramount, til someone is able to determine a solution.


Of course I agree with you that we disagree. There are times I share your postion on this matter. This particular instance just isnt isnt one though.

It doesnt mean I wont listen to and respect your opinion though.
Hmmm... I think we are misunderstanding each other?

Just to be clear, what I felt as being "too simple" is only the arguement that the perpetrator is no longer human. In my opinion it isn't productive to answer the question "How can he have done such a thing?" with "He isn't human."

The punishment for the crime he has comitted, if he deserves to be executed etc. are different matters entirely. :)

Some people just can't live with the rest of us. And despite what psychologists say, there is no cure for them,

Offing them is the best option, really.

Joining the military, surely?