NationStates Jolt Archive

I find the whole exercise to be politically dubious. Its jingoistic. And military parades? Why does Ireland have to celebrate its identity through weapons of death and suffering? 1916 is finished. Time to move on and get over the cultural insecurities bred by colonialism. I hate the kind of ye olde teary eyed mother ireland republicanism that still resides to some extent in this country. Its basically pandering to that vote isnt it. To take away votes from sinn fein. Meh, i have no time for it, hopefully no one will turn up. Its pointless.

It's your nation's history. It's part of your national culture, no? In New Jersey every Christmas people reenact George Washington's crossing of the Delaware river to fight the Hessians in Trenton. I like that event. If I were Irish, I think I'd like to commemorate the Easter uprising.

no, its not part of my culture, Im Irish but I dont identify with it. I cant understand military parades. It reinforces a kind of violent jingoism. Im all for celebrating cultural identity but not in this way. Not through themes of violence. It just serves to reinforce an us/them mentality and therefore petty national boundaries that mitigate against shared understanding and solidarity.

Quite right DCD. And now would seem to be the time for it, according to a tour guide that was on the news recently a lot more Irish people are taking an interest in the rising, as opposed to a previous majority of Americans and Brits taking the tours.

meh do you understand there is no validity in it. Its purely a vote grabbing exercise. i guess im going to be a minority on this one.

no, its not part of my culture, Im Irish but I dont identify with it. I cant understand military parades. It reinforces a kind of violent jingoism. Im all for celebrating cultural identity but not in this way. Not through themes of violence. It just serves to reinforce an us/them mentality and therefore petty national boundaries that mitigate against shared understanding and solidarity.

Jingoism? Hardly. This parade might invoke mild partiotism but that's it.

meh do you understand there is no validity in it. Its purely a vote grabbing exercise. i guess im going to be a minority on this one.
Who is it trying to grab votes?

Jingoism? Hardly. This parade might invoke mild partiotism but that's it.

hmmm, i wonder...military parades would infer jingoism or conversely patriotism, but I cant see any difference between the two. I disdain of both. These unifying concepts tend to work against cultural pluralism or listening to others.

meh do you understand there is no validity in it. Its purely a vote grabbing exercise. i guess im going to be a minority on this one.

So You think that Gerry Adams gets votes from it?

Who is it trying to grab votes?

the government

Here in the South we still have Civil War renactments. Does that mean that the people playing confederates want to make slavery legal again? How about the people who cheer for them? Of course not. It's just history; it's southern heritage. Just like your Deleware crossings in the north, or your Irish parades. I think a little tradition is fun.

the government
:rolleyes:
I don't see how Fianna Fail or the PDs would benefit from the jingoism you seem to think this parade will evoke. If anyone would it would be Sinn Fein, but they probably had little or no part in deciding whether or not this parade would take place.

hmmm, i wonder...military parades would infer jingoism or conversely patriotism, but I cant see any difference between the two. I disdain of both. These unifying concepts tend to work against cultural pluralism or listening to others.

The difference is the level of extremity involved. Jingoism would be an extreme form of patriotism. The mild patriotism I reffered to would be something along the lines of 'Sure is pretty sweet to be Irish' as opposed to 'We are the Irish Master Race. Your stores of alcohol will be added to our own. Resistance is futile'

Its the first time in my memory I can go to a military parade that doesnt have "para" in it. I was at the one for the 80th, and it was a fucking disgrace. I was standing a few yards down from ulick o connor, who rightly noticed "the puss on yer wan" (Mary "big bird" Robinson). Beside him was one of the last of that era, tall oul fellah with a load of medals, who made the comment "they're waitin for the last of us to die so they can bury it all and forget about it".

Its fairly ironic that for most of the states history if you wanted to see the Irish revolutionary heritage properly celebrated and remembered you'd have to go to South America. We should have been doing this every year since 1916. Maybe that way there wouldnt be PDs in the Government and Americans flying their war toys through Shannon.

I find the whole exercise to be politically dubious. Its jingoistic. And military parades? Why does Ireland have to celebrate its identity through weapons of death and suffering? 1916 is finished. Time to move on and get over the cultural insecurities bred by colonialism. I hate the kind of ye olde teary eyed mother ireland republicanism that still resides to some extent in this country. Its basically pandering to that vote isnt it. To take away votes from sinn fein. Meh, i have no time for it, hopefully no one will turn up. Its pointless.
The French celebrate Bastille Day, the Americans celebrate Independence Day, and so on. Why shouldn't we celebrate the 1916 rising?

I'll be there.

Your rhetoric about jingoism and suffering is also bullshit. The Irish Army has never invaded another country and probably never will.

I find the whole exercise to be politically dubious.

Then get a blog and stick your opinions on it instead of using this as one :)

Ner ner ner ner ner :P

Every nation should have the right to celebrate their victories and successes, I just wish our government would allow it without fearing an ethnic minority backlash:mad:

:rolleyes:
I don't see how Fianna Fail or the PDs would benefit from the jingoism you seem to think this parade will evoke. If anyone would it would be Sinn Fein, but they probably had little or no part in deciding whether or not this parade would take place.

They are trying to steal some of SF's thunder by wrapping themselves in the flag. They are, after all, the "Soldier of Destiny."

They are trying to steal some of SF's thunder by wrapping themselves in the flag. They are, after all, the "Soldier of Destiny."
Is that what Fianna Fail is in English? Sweet.

Every nation should have the right to celebrate their victories and successes, I just wish our government would allow it without fearing an ethnic minority backlash:mad:
Do you live in the UK? What would you celebrate? Getting invaded in 1066? Yes, celebrating nine hundred and forty years of Norman occupation. :cool:

The French celebrate Bastille Day, the Americans celebrate Independence Day, and so on. Why shouldn't we celebrate the 1916 rising?

I'll be there.

Your rhetoric about jingoism and suffering is also bullshit. The Irish Army has never invaded another country and probably never will.


are you in the army by any chance?

you dont have to invade another country to be jingoist. The question remains, why celebrate national identity through signifiers for violence?

The difference is the level of extremity involved. Jingoism would be an extreme form of patriotism. The mild patriotism I reffered to would be something along the lines of 'Sure is pretty sweet to be Irish' as opposed to 'We are the Irish Master Race. Your stores of alcohol will be added to our own. Resistance is futile'

I guess its a case of degrees, but say in america, the government evokes the term patriotism to marginalize people who happen to dissent from its policies. That would be a jingoistic use of patriotism. The concept of patriotism has often been hijacked by people with dubious political motivations. Its particularly vunerable to being transformed into jingoism. Im not against the parade taking place, but I cant understand the military aspect of it. National celebration through images of violence. Why show off instruments of death. Its not positive.

Im not against the parade taking place, but I cant understand the military aspect of it. National celebration through images of violence. Why show off instruments of death. Its not positive.
Violence is sometimes needed to protect the people, and it's not necessarily the violent acts themselves that are appreciated at ceremonies like this but rather what the acts accomplished in a greater sense, namely independence. So the guardians gets some honor and respect shown it by the masses that they defend, big deal, at least it's not a celebration of conquest.

I guess its a case of degrees, but say in america, the government evokes the term patriotism to marginalize people who happen to dissent from its policies. That would be a jingoistic use of patriotism. The concept of patriotism has often been hijacked by people with dubious political motivations. Its particularly vunerable to being transformed into jingoism. Im not against the parade taking place, but I cant understand the military aspect of it. National celebration through images of violence. Why show off instruments of death. Its not positive.

I think your missing a point about human beings. We are hard wired for conflict as are all the majority of animals. It is a natural outcrop of this tendency of humans to celebrate military victories. Fast forward 10k years and they still will be celebrating liberations, revolutions and possibly galactic victories over some unknown beings. It will go on for as long as humans exist. I say deal with it because it is not going to change.

I think your missing a point about human beings. We are hard wired for conflict as are all the majority of animals. It is a natural outcrop of this tendency of humans to celebrate military victories. Fast forward 10k years and they still will be celebrating liberations, revolutions and possibly galactic victories over some unknown beings. It will go on for as long as humans exist. I say deal with it because it is not going to change.

there is also a social element to our nature which I think overrides our violent tendencies. So maybe given another 10k we wont be fighting anymore. Ive been thinking about this lately and I think violence is pure idiocy. Why does there have to be military conflict. If people just engaged in debate and learned to live with each other, to tolerate rather than to accept each others views, everything would be so much better, (although I recognize this is far from attainable as in the governance of society. The only thing i can posit is developing an anarcho syndicalist societal framework wherein central organizations are fragmented). That is the way the world should be. But its not, because you have a few dumbasses who have to have things their way. I know this is vague and idealistic but fuck it, why not aspire to make things better.

Tabriza- yes I have thought about that element, but I still think violence, even emancipatory violence should not be publically celebrated. (ooh wait qualifying time- when I say im not against the parade, that is in the sense of not disrupting it and allowing for freedom of expression, but ideally i mean that such celebrations would never take place in the first place). It must sometimes be used as a necessity to defend the greater good against idiots who you cant reason with , e.g. the nazis, but celebrating it ideologically serves to legitimize it. It should be considered only as an instrument. Instruments are not celebrated as in you dont see a parade for a piece of technology or method of some sort.

I guess its a case of degrees, but say in america, the government evokes the term patriotism to marginalize people who happen to dissent from its policies. That would be a jingoistic use of patriotism. The concept of patriotism has often been hijacked by people with dubious political motivations. Its particularly vunerable to being transformed into jingoism. Im not against the parade taking place, but I cant understand the military aspect of it. National celebration through images of violence. Why show off instruments of death. Its not positive.

Fighting against oppression is Good. Fighting for Freedom is good. Have you any idea of your history at all? We arent celebrating conquering some bunch of poor bastards armed with mud and sticks and enslaving them. "not positive" my bollocks. Not having a parade to celebrate it since the sixties, thats not positive.

Fighting against oppression is Good. Fighting for Freedom is good. Have you any idea of your history at all? We arent celebrating conquering some bunch of poor bastards armed with mud and sticks and enslaving them. "not positive" my bollocks. Not having a parade to celebrate it since the sixties, thats not positive.

yes, can this debate be keep civil rather than lapsing into aggression and becoming an argument or internet equivalent of a shouting match?

I happen to have a detailed knowledge of history. I did a history module on the Irish media just recently in uni. Answer the question, why celebrate national identity with weapons? Is this the way to celebrate an uprising for liberation? No.

How can people condemn the Orange Marches to commemorate protestant victories as "triumphalism" and then support a similarly triumphalist march in Dublin?

Is that what Fianna Fail is in English? Sweet.

They figured it was better than Soldiers of Fortune.

How can people condemn the Orange Marches to commemorate protestant victories as "triumphalism" and then support a similarly triumphalist march in Dublin?

yes, this parade, in part reminds me of the twits who decided to riot in dublin last month. Freedom of expression fine, but I will remain critical of such celebrations.

yes, can this debate be keep civil rather than lapsing into aggression and becoming an argument or internet equivalent of a shouting match?

I happen to have a detailed knowledge of history. I did a history module on the Irish media just recently in uni. Answer the question, why celebrate national identity with weapons? Is this the way to celebrate an uprising for liberation? No.

It was a violent uprising, it does make sense to have the army involved. And so what if the army is going to march about with unloaded weapons? This is one parade on one day, it won't turn us into uber-nationalistic bloodthirsty barbarians.

yes, can this debate be keep civil rather than lapsing into aggression and becoming an argument or internet equivalent of a shouting match?

I happen to have a detailed knowledge of history. I did a history module on the Irish media just recently in uni. Answer the question, why celebrate national identity with weapons? Is this the way to celebrate an uprising for liberation? No.


How did they "rise"? With (a)Flowers (b)Asking the brits to go (c) mausers and lee-enfields?

How did the country eventually get the treaty? With (a)Flowers (b)Asking the brits to go (c) mausers and lee-enfields?

How can people condemn the Orange Marches to commemorate protestant victories as "triumphalism" and then support a similarly triumphalist march in Dublin?

That wasnt an "orange march" as the season is not yet upon us. It was by a bunch of not particularily pleasant people of an anti-good friday persuasion who were unfortunately given far more publicity by even less pleasant people.

How did they "rise"? With (a)Flowers (b)Asking the brits to go (c) mausers and lee-enfields?

How did the country eventually get the treaty? With (a)Flowers (b)Asking the brits to go (c) mausers and lee-enfields?

read my other posts, violence as instrument rather than ideology. or the aestheticization of violence, hence ideology. There again, it may well serve to arouse, "those damned brits" sentiments in crowds tomorrow. (which I could never get). Im Irish, I have nothing against british people. I like British culture. What they carried out was not unique to Ireland. It happened everywhere, across many time periods. Im not condoning this, I detest colonialism, the way Irish people were re-classified as non europeans, with jaw measurements etc being taken. But still, I bear no real animosity for British people as its not part of my cultural experience.

Your rhetoric about jingoism and suffering is also bullshit. The Irish Army has never invaded another country and probably never will.


Just their terrorists.

Tabriza- yes I have thought about that element, but I still think violence, even emancipatory violence should not be publically celebrated. (ooh wait qualifying time- when I say im not against the parade, that is in the sense of not disrupting it and allowing for freedom of expression, but ideally i mean that such celebrations would never take place in the first place). It must sometimes be used as a necessity to defend the greater good against idiots who you cant reason with , e.g. the nazis, but celebrating it ideologically serves to legitimize it. It should be considered only as an instrument. Instruments are not celebrated as in you dont see a parade for a piece of technology or method of some sort.
I agree that force is only an instrument, but I would not agree that those who use force are themselves instruments, they are people and when they do good work in support of their society it seems acceptable to have society give them some measure of acknowledgement, and by extension to those who did those deeds in the past. It's not as if the guardians can be simply stored in boxes away from the sight of the people to be taken out only at need.

read my other posts, violence as instrument rather than ideology. or the aestheticization of violence, hence ideology. There again, it may well serve to arouse, "those damned brits" sentiments in crowds tomorrow. (which I could never get). Im Irish, I have nothing against british people. I like British culture. What they carried out was not unique to Ireland. It happened everywhere, across many time periods. Im not condoning this, I detest colonialism, the way Irish people were re-classified as non europeans, with jaw measurements etc being taken. But still, I bear no real animosity for British people as its not part of my cultural experience.

Its nothing to do with being anti-brit, its about fighting for a cause regardless. Its what had men walk across the pyrenees to fight Franco or go on the blanket. You've obviously no empathy with past generations of your own people and can't have similar feelings towards others in other nations, both past and present, who endure under oppression and fight on regardless of the odds. Great. You should move to America. you'd fit right in with their right wing element.

Just their terrorists.
So, what countries have the IRA invaded?

I agree that force is only an instrument, but I would not agree that those who use force are themselves instruments, they are people and when they do good work in support of their society it seems acceptable to have society give them some measure of acknowledgement, and by extension to those who did those deeds in the past. It's not as if the guardians can be simply stored in boxes away from the sight of the people to be taken out only at need.

ok, but then why not celebrate them as people. How does a military display have anything to do with their personal qualities? They used force yes, but to celebrate that force is not celebrating the actual traits which enabled them to win in the first place. So instead of showing off weapons, why not build a few statues (ok a bit unrealistic), put on educational displays about their lives in an historical context, why not have artwork etc.

ok, but then why not celebrate them as people. How does a military display have anything to do with their personal qualities? They used force yes, but to celebrate that force is not celebrating the actual traits which enabled them to win in the first place. So instead of showing off weapons, why not build a few statues (ok a bit unrealistic), put on educational displays about their lives in an historical context, why not have artwork etc.
There's a little more to a military parade than showing off weapons. A military parade adds solemnity to the affair, by virtue of simple things like the fact they can march in near perfect unison. There'll most likely be an army band there too. None of whom will be showing off their weapons. And there's the captain who'll be reading the declaration, I imagine he won't be carrying a gun.

Its nothing to do with being anti-brit, its about fighting for a cause regardless. Its what had men walk across the pyrenees to fight Franco or go on the blanket. You've obviously no empathy with past generations of your own people and can't have similar feelings towards others in other nations, both past and present, who endure under oppression and fight on regardless of the odds. Great. You should move to America. you'd fit right in with their right wing element.

oh joy, Id actually describe myself as left wing, not that it means much. Im studying post colonialism right now, I chose it because I do feel an empathy with people who are treated like shit. Im just wary of such a demonstration. I know from personal experience that there are two kinds of Ireland, 1. cosmopolitan- this is the one I like, 2. ye olde manne notions of ireland etc, conservative, traditionalist forcefully imposed on everyone else, potatos, regressivism, living in the past. This is kind of whats happening in america, uber nationalistic, your not a patriot if you dont support the government etc. It can come back here too, I would suspect. Not that such a parade will do it, but nevertheless. It could end in farce. Berties involved and it is ireland, which is kind of renowned for farce. And I mean that in jest, although my philosophy of jokes is that they all involve an element of truth.

So, what countries have the IRA invaded?

The United Kingdom

There's a little more to a military parade than showing off weapons. A military parade adds solemnity to the affair, by virtue of simple things like the fact they can march in near perfect unison. There'll most likely be an army band there too. None of whom will be showing off their weapons. And there's the captain who'll be reading the declaration, I imagine he won't be carrying a gun.


hmmm, thats a fair point. However, seeing military gear being paraded down the street reminds me of those soviet demonstrations

The United Kingdom
:rolleyes:
I don't think the troubles in the North qualify as an invasion.

oh joy, Id actually describe myself as left wing, not that it means much. Im studying post colonialism right now, I chose it because I do feel an empathy with people who are treated like shit. Im just wary of such a demonstration. I know from personal experience that there are two kinds of Ireland, 1. cosmopolitan- this is the one I like, 2. ye olde manne notions of ireland etc, conservative, traditionalist forcefully imposed on everyone else, potatos, regressivism, living in the past. This is kind of whats happening in america, uber nationalistic, your not a patriot if you dont support the government etc. It can come back here too, I would suspect. Not that such a parade will do it, but nevertheless. It could end in farce. Berties involved and it is ireland, which is kind of renowned for farce. And I mean that in jest, although my philosophy of jokes is that they all involve an element of truth.


And then theres the cosmopolitan left wing brothers in struggle money-to-the-Sandanistas,PLO, PFLP supporting socially proggressive strand of Irish republicanism. Which is ours. Dear jesus if I thought turning up tommorrow supported that "dancing at the crossroads" bollocks, I wouldn't go meself.

ok, but then why not celebrate them as people. How does a military display have anything to do with their personal qualities? They used force yes, but to celebrate that force is not celebrating the actual traits which enabled them to win in the first place. So instead of showing off weapons, why not build a few statues (ok a bit unrealistic), put on educational displays about their lives in an historical context, why not have artwork etc.
Um, because it's in their capacity as soldiers that they do those deeds? It would be rather odd for them to all show up and march in a parade in plain clothes, you wouldn't know why they're distinguished in any way from others.

All that other stuff you propose is good to do as well, but humans are social and parades play well to that, especially to those who desire praise from others.

That wasnt an "orange march" as the season is not yet upon us. It was by a bunch of not particularily pleasant people of an anti-good friday persuasion who were unfortunately given far more publicity by even less pleasant people.

I wasn't referring to the "Love Ulster" march. I was referring to the Orange marches. I don't see how they are different enough than the proposed Easter Parade that the same people that condemn the Orange marches can support the Easter Parade.

are you in the army by any chance?
No.

you dont have to invade another country to be jingoist. The question remains, why celebrate national identity through signifiers for violence?
Jingoism is usually connected with imperialism, so I think it does involve invading other countries. The Republic would never even invade Ulster let alone any other country. Everyone knows that our military can't really beat anyone. It's essentially a peacekeeping force and I like it that way. Hardly jingoist. It's not about violence and killing lots of people.

That said, I would like our celebration to be more about fireworks and fun than about a military parade. I still think that the occasion of the Rising should be marked annually.

a military display is bit of a misleading term for all those modified tractors :D

Just their terrorists.
What are you talking about? If you're referring to the IRA, they are not a branch of the government, and most Irish people don't support them.

hmmm, thats a fair point. However, seeing military gear being paraded down the street reminds me of those soviet demonstrations
Yeah I overheard some people around me making such comments. I think that people don't really know how to respond to that sort of thing.

:rolleyes:
I don't think the troubles in the North qualify as an invasion.

they were bombing the crap out of london and other UK cities at one point too

but yes its not an invasion

I wasn't referring to the "Love Ulster" march. I was referring to the Orange marches. I don't see how they are different enough than the proposed Easter Parade that the same people that condemn the Orange marches can support the Easter Parade.

Because the Rising wasn't about trying to make a catholic or protestant king of england, nor was it about religon. Nor is the parade to be conducted through residential areas where the residents don't want it. Few condemn Orange marches in themselves, I might add. They apparently have them in other countries and nobody cares too much about them.

Why don't people hold a march, say, in favour of the Good Friday agreement? As flawed as it is, at least it tries to point the way toward a more peaceful future rather than dwelling on the violent past.

An Ireland subject to Valera's revisionism celebrating the Easter Rising is like the Soviet Union celebrating the February Revolution.

An Ireland subject to Valera's revisionism celebrating the Easter Rising is like the Soviet Union celebrating the February Revolution.

Yes, the 120,000 people out today stood in the streets of a city with the gay bars, lap dancing clubs, porno mags condoms and faint whiff of hashish that is the culmination of his vision.....

Yes, the 120,000 people out today stood in the streets of a city with the gay bars, lap dancing clubs, porno mags condoms and faint whiff of hashish that is the culmination of his vision.....
What I meant was that 1922 clearly separated the survivors of 1916. This is very much like Republicanism celebrating something which may have been the patrimony of the Free State; just like Lenin celebrating the victories of the Provisoral Government.

What I meant was that 1922 clearly separated the survivors of 1916. This is very much like Republicanism celebrating something which may have been the patrimony of the Free State; just like Lenin celebrating the victories of the Provisoral Government.

Fairynuffski.

Well, I enjoyed it. :p

It was fun watching the new Mowags finally being used; the Cadets and the Rangers gave the whole thing a little bit of professionalism. Those Rangers be scary. :D

As for the purpose of it, it was also a chance to recognise the addition the IDF has given to International efforts and peacekeeping over the past half century. It stirred no 'patriotic' or 'jingoistic' sentiments in me- only in so far as "Aw, ain't that ickle 105mm artillery piece cute".

Pompous world?

Shut the fuck up, k :)

Yep. My sole complaint was that the bastardin tannoys were fucked where I was, so you couldnt here yer man reading the declaration (I was too late to get a spot in O'Connell st).

:rolleyes:
I don't think the troubles in the North qualify as an invasion.
They invaded and occupied part of Fermanagh in 19...21? Might have been '22. After independence anyway.

Occupied a roughly triangular area that was cut off from the rest of NI by Lough Erne.

You're an Irishman that does not take pride in his country? Don't make me sail back across the 'Lantic and smack you..:eek: