NationStates Jolt Archive

I returned home from a trip to Israel a couple of days ago, and it was really eye-opening. I just thought I'd share my reflections with you guys.

In this forum, and in public opinion in general, I've found that there are two versions of Israel in peoples' minds: there's the liberal Western democracy and the malevolent evil Empire, and to a certain extent Israel is both of these things.

I entered the country through the brand new Ben Gurion 2000 Airport outside of Tel Aviv at around 2am, and we were taken to go see the early morning sights and smells of the Israeli Mediterranean coast. The Ottoman architecture was beautiful and the land was very prosperous, we stopped to watch the sunrise over the Mediterranean, (this was later abandoned when we all remembered some very basic geography), and we went on our way.

The first thing I noticed about the North of Israel was how similar to my native Europe it was, if you ignored the tri-lingual (hebrew, arabic, english) road signs you could swear you were in Spain or Greece. This is all due to pioneering agricultural techniques of Israeli scientists. All of these techniques, it is important to realise, would probably not have arisen from a conservative Islamic nation, but are rather a product of the religious zeal Israelis put behind making their desert bloom.

But this zeal goes way beyond just agriculture, as our (slightly racialist, but nonetheless charming) Christian Israeli Arab tour-guide Charlie pointed out; that while Arabs are very short-term thinkers, the Jews, through millenia of exile have learnt to be very long-term thinkers, whose leaders desired more to create a lasting stable state than simply hold on to their own authority.

Charlie, real name: Khalil Abu-Shahid Al-Nazaret Ha-Nadony, gave us a valued insight into what it is like to be an Arab Israeli. He recognised that he had rights, but also noticed that they were far from equal to Jewish rights. For example, Arabs are not permitted to serve in the army, they may be the most patriotic Israelis you may hope to meet, but they are still not trusted by the State to protect the realm. In addition to this, there is a huge pro-Jewish bias in government spending, for example, the city where he lives, Nazareth, is chronically underfunded, enforcing a cycle of poverty that is very difficult to break. Add to that the Israeli Law of Return, and other legal frameworks, that stop just one step away from apartheid as they offer huge subsidies and incentives for Jews to move into affluent settlements, but make it almost impossible for an Arab to do the same thing. However, amongst minorities, the successful minorities at least, it is fully accepted that the natural rulers of Israel are the Jews.

This brings us to the crux of what the State of Israel is based on, and, to put it bluntly, what it is based on is racism.

Israel, unique amongst the world's democracies, owes its primary responsibility to the Jews of the world, and not to its own citizens. What this means in practice is that a Jew who first arrives in Israel from Ethiopia, Russia, or wherever, is more invested in than an Arab citizen who may have been born in Israel, worked all his life and contributed nothing but positively to the state. This leads to a feeling of cultural dillution amongst the indigenous Palestinians and many Orthodox Jews, as these immigrants in practice have very little shared culture.

However, the problems faced by the Israeli Arabs are miniscule compared to those of the Palestinian nation. Despite the advice from the Foreign Office, our group decided to venture into the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Entering the former required travelling through the 'Great Wall of Israel', which was truly a disturbing sight. Never before have I seen oppression so clearly and unashamedly. Israeli guards smile and wave to let you in to the nation that they have imprisoned, but anyone with a green licence plate is interrogated and humiliated if they wish to leave.

Once inside Palestine, the difference between the prosperous Israel is immediately noticed due to the lack of greenery. Joblessness is at 60% as Israel frequently closes the borders and cripples the tourism sector. But the worst story I heard in Palestine was from a father who said that he had done nothing to oppose the Wall as it was being built, as it was hardly noticed amongst the gradual encroach that Israel makes. But then one day he took his two young sons to see family in Jericho, barely 50 miles away. Within moments of leaving the wall his sons began to wail and sob, saying that they were terrified to be so far away from the security of their home. It was at this time when the man realised that his family were prisoners. He is currently applying for a Green Card. I implore any Americans who find this man in their presence to make him and his family feel comfortable.

I spent that evening in a Sheesha Lounge in East Jerusalem, it was real ghetto-country on the way there, but once there the reassuring tenor of Johnny Cash on the stereo made me feel secure that the long arm of Western globalisation was never too far out of reach. The next morning we visited a place that was supposedly the location of Jesus' tomb, like anywhere in Israel, even a layman's knowledge of archeology would prove that the site was disengenuous, but still the site was lauded as a holy location and marketed to pilgrims from all over the world (including many pilgrims from the Third World who were giving their hard-earned cash to these lying false prophets than actually spend it on their own failing countries, that industrial-level exploitation of the faith of the ignorant really made me angry after a week).

And so as a left Israel, I couldn't help but feel this it was built on very shaky moral foundations. Moreso than many other states, a state which is founded on European guilt, kept afloat entirely on Western gifts which denies citizen rights to its indigenous population. Yet at the same time, it provides a bastion of liberty, stability and economic investment to its region. Truly the State of Israel is a contradiction that I left being more confused than when I entered.

If any Israelis want to add something, or if anyone on either side of the Israel debate wants to ask me anything, I'll be glad to answer.

This is all due to pioneering agricultural techniques of Israeli scientists. All of these techniques, it is important to realise, would probably not have arisen from a conservative Islamic nation, but are rather a product of the religious zeal Israelis put behind making their desert bloom.

Is this attitude contributing to the demise of the Dead and/or Red Seas?

.....Entering the former required travelling through the 'Great Wall of Israel', which was truly a disturbing sight. Never before have I seen oppression so clearly and unashamedly. Israeli guards smile and wave to let you in to the nation that they have imprisoned, but anyone with a green licence plate is interrogated and humiliated if they wish to leave.
.....
Can you post pictures from the 'other' side?

So Israel is infact nice, but I don't think many of us think of it is as Evil or anything. What's wrong with the signs!? o.o

Can you post pictures from the 'other' side?
Haven't you seen enough on the news? :O

Is this attitude contributing to the demise of the Dead and/or Red Seas?

I take it you have heard of the Two Seas Project? The plan Israel has to build a canal from the Mediterranean to the Dead Sea, an altitudinal difference of over 2000m, and once this is hooked up to a few hydro-electric dams, the energy produced could light up the entire Middle East and save thousands of tonnes of fossil fuels.

This would, however, eventually destroy the unique Dead Sea, as the high salt levels would be dilluted by much clearer Mediterranean water.

But yes, this does all stem from the Israeli attitude to make their nation bloom, or, controversially, to make it more like Europe. Although it destroys a unique natural phenomenon, it also creates non-polluting energy and would allow fish to once again live in the Dead Sea, it's an intricate balance.

Well it isn't just a Democracy. Its a Theocratic Democracy. In their eyes its the promised land for the chosen people and has been for thousands of years. I guess thats ok for them but it really does punctuate the need for seperation of church and state.

Haven't you seen enough on the news? :O
I've seen plenty on the news. Still, I'd also like to see what people see, not just media staff.

I take it you have heard of the Two Seas Project? The plan Israel has to build a canal from the Mediterranean to the Dead Sea, an altitudinal difference of over 2000m, and once this is hooked up to a few hydro-electric dams, the energy produced could light up the entire Middle East and save thousands of tonnes of fossil fuels.

This would, however, eventually destroy the unique Dead Sea, as the high salt levels would be dilluted by much clearer Mediterranean water.

But yes, this does all stem from the Israeli attitude to make their nation bloom, or, controversially, to make it more like Europe. Although it destroys a unique natural phenomenon, it also creates non-polluting energy and would allow fish to once again live in the Dead Sea, it's an intricate balance.
Yes of course and do the Fish really care if they live in the Dead Sea?
Hasn't the water level resided around 1.6 metres because of wastage or excessive use?

*snip*once this is hooked up to a few hydro-electric dams*snip*
Oh, I'm sure those won't become terrorist targets. :rolleyes:

Well it isn't just a Democracy. Its a Theocratic Democracy. In their eyes its the promised land for the chosen people and has been for thousands of years. I guess thats ok for them but it really does punctuate the need for seperation of church and state.

Israel and my own country, Great Britain are unique in the world in that neither of us have a codified constitution. In Britain it is because things worked so well anyway that we never saw the actual need to sit down and write the damned thing.

In Israel, the first Prime Minister promised to have a constitution ready by the end of his term, but it never materialised, primarily because the politicians could not agree whether Israel would be a civil republic or a Judaistic theocracy. That is why today Israel is refered to simply as 'the State', because anything further than that cannot be agreed on, there is even a throne present in the Knesset in case the messianic King of Israel becomes apparent.

While I agree seperation of chruch and state is essential in ALL political systems, it is not accurate to label Israel and a theocracy, as there is a very strong secularist tendency in Israel that would disagree with such a description.

What you say agrees fairly well with what I have read in the press, and by that I mean the more detailed analytical articles rather than routine reports of violence. Although I have never been there, nor ever wish to go, it does indeed sound like a semi-democratic theocracy with a messianic streak, combining the characterisitics of apartheid-era South Africa and post-Revolution Iran. It is also remarkable how similar the Palestinian Territories sound to the Warsaw Ghetto during the years before it was razed.

Another interesting thing to note is that there is inequality even in the treatment of the settlers by the State. Families who have lived in Israel for 1-3 generations have generally long since moved to the safer more prosperous areas. New arrivals from Eastern Europe find themselves in the same sort of apartment buildings they left behind, but this time right on the violent border zones. The brutality they witness from Day 1 only serves to reinforce the racist opinions with which they arrived (anti-Arab / anti-Islam prejudice is near-universal in the Former Soviet Union), and nurtures a violent colonial mindset. Unemployment there runs pretty high too. The obligation to accommodate these new arrivals will likely lead to a rise in ever more extreme politics as time goes on.

Oh, I'm sure those won't become terrorist targets. :rolleyes:

Oh, I'm sure the IDF will keep them secure, the IDF can pretty much do anything they set their mind to.

Oh, I'm sure the IDF will keep them secure, the IDF can pretty much do anything they set their mind to.

That may be, but they will be very vulnerable during construction.

That may be, but they will be very vulnerable during construction.
Put a few tanks around it, and it'll be fine.

But more disturbing is the fact that you'd even consider the risk of the building being attacked as a significant factor in the decision to take up a project.

While I agree seperation of chruch and state is essential in ALL political systems...
You're British and saying that the separation of church and state is essential?

Put a few tanks around it, and it'll be fine.

But more disturbing is the fact that you'd even consider the risk of the building being attacked as a significant factor in the decision to take up a project.

When did I say that? I just pointed out that they would become terrorist targets, and commented no further.

... It is also remarkable how similar the Palestinian Territories sound to the Warsaw Ghetto during the years before it was razed.
....
History goes in cycles, doesn't it?

When did I say that? I just pointed out that they would become terrorist targets, and commented no further.
Well, fair enough then. A misunderstanding.

At any rate, most of Israel has never been a terror target, and probably never will be. There used to be cases of suicide bombings in a few major cities, today it's more the occasional rocket fired into a settlement.

But in Israel, just like anywhere else, the whole threat from terrorism is overblown and irrational.

I'm just not sure that such a project is legal...
Britain and Morocco, couldn't, for example, decide they were going to block the Strait of Gibraltar, could they? Even if it were physically possible.

You're British and saying that the separation of church and state is essential?

I would say that 99% of the British population believe separation of church and state is essential. The reason we don't have it is because all of our politicians recognise this, and so the church is politicised and politics is not ecclesiacised.

This is an example of how the British political systems works purely by our politicians respecting completely unwritten rules. It is a system that has failed in almost every country it has been imposed on, but yet it works here, and that is a source of pride for many Britons.

I would say that 99% of the British population believe separation of church and state is essential. The reason we don't have it is because all of our politicians recognise this, and so the church is politicised and politics is not ecclesiacised.
I would say that a lot of the British population would disagree. Religion needs to be carefully watched due to its social impact, and the Anglican construct has proven remarkably successful in this respect. By remaining nominally Christian and being forced to accept that role, Britain has remained a vital moderating influence in religious affairs that would probably have sparked a wide-scale zealotous bigotry without it.

History goes in cycles, doesn't it?
Indeed. The abused become the abusers, fulfilling a psychological need to claw back the power they blame themselves for giving up. All too common.

So Israel is infact nice, but I don't think many of us think of it is as Evil or anything.
I think Most of us agree: Israel uses terrorism. (Israel is a terrorist state)
want me to take a Poll Asbena?

I would say that a lot of the British population would disagree. Religion needs to be carefully watched due to its social impact, and the Anglican construct has proven remarkably successful in this respect. By remaining nominally Christian and being forced to accept that role, Britain has remained a vital moderating influence in religious affairs that would probably have sparked a wide-scale zealotous bigotry without it.

1) I never said that religion could be ignored, even though culturally it is much less dominant in the UK than other places. Religion is 'carefully watched' in Britain, as the British people have a history of being vigilent against their rights being infringed.

2) I'm not sure what Anglican church you were thinking of, but last time I checked it was a national joke with terminally dwindling congregations.

I think Most of us agree: Israel uses terrorism. (Israel is a terrorist state)
want me to take a Poll Asbena?

the marxist sprouting college boys on this site might agree, pity most of the UN wouldn't

the marxist sprouting college boys on this site might agree, pity most of the UN wouldn't:( Poor Airenia/Asbena, do you really think Israel would stop using terrorism if the UN asked nicely(does Israel conform to UN resolutions)?

... But then one day he took his two young sons to see family in Jericho, barely 50 miles away. Within moments of leaving the wall his sons began to wail and sob, saying that they were terrified to be so far away from the security of their home. It was at this time when the man realised that his family were prisoners. He is currently applying for a Green Card. I implore any Americans who find this man in their presence to make him and his family feel comfortable. ...
I'm not up on Israel's immigration or whatever its called, but are we supposed to assume that the man is applying for a Green Card to come to America? I'm just wondering why Americans are to comfort this man.

:( Poor Airenia/Asbena, do you really think Israel would stop using terrorism if the UN asked nicely(does Israel conform to UN resolutions)?

well you're half right, but its actually called counter terrorism :rolleyes:

it might be more worthwhile to try asking hamas/islamic jihad to end their calls for the destruction of a state which exists under international UN agreement and to kindly stop blowing themselves up

snip.

Fair and balanced. A rare moment of sanity on the subject.

well you're half right, but its actually called counter terrorism :rolleyes:

it might be more worthwhile to try asking hamas/islamic jihad to end their calls for the destruction of a state which exists under international UN agreement and to kindly stop blowing themselves up

It's a shame that the state continues to do things which are in contravention of international law :rolleyes:

well you're half right, but its actually called counter terrorism :rolleyes:

it might be more worthwhile to try asking hamas/islamic jihad to end their calls for the destruction of a state which exists under international UN agreement and to kindly stop blowing themselves up
It would be more helpful if the blind partisans could admit to the fact that they're both dirty and both use terrorist-tactics.

Interesting. I've always heard bad things about Israel, but I always dismissed them as the ranting of anti-semites (of which there are no shortage of).

Interesting. I've always heard bad things about Israel, but I always dismissed them as the ranting of anti-semites (of which there are no shortage of).
Maybe it's because of your 'Oh poor Jews' syndrome and can't see anything they do wrong. And I'm reaaaallly getting sick of the anti-semite getting thrown around whenever someone cricizes Israel.

Interesting. I've always heard bad things about Israel, but I always dismissed them as the ranting of anti-semites (of which there are no shortage of).

Perhaps you were too dismissive. :)

It's a shame that the state continues to do things which are in contravention of international law :rolleyes:

like defending itself :eek:

Moreso than many other states, a state which is founded on European guilt, kept afloat entirely on Western gifts which denies citizen rights to its indigenous population. Yet at the same time, it provides a bastion of liberty, stability and economic investment to its region. Truly the State of Israel is a contradiction that I left being more confused than when I entered.WHich country has been built on anything BUT "shaky foundations"? We in North America plundered this land and pushed its inhabitants to the margins. You in Europe have a thousand years of war behind you.

But anyway, I would avoid stating that Israel was founded on European guilt. I was not a swath of land bestowed by imperial powers: Jews actually fought for it and worked towards it for many years. The large-scale Jewish settlement of Israel and the Zionist movement had taken flight long before guilt about the holocaust. This guilt was doubtless a factor in attitudes toward Israel after its foundation, but the foundation was inevitable.

You can't exactly expect Israelis/Jews to be the most inviting people in the world....a millenia of persecution and slaughter would make me pretty paranoyed towards my former oppressors too (a.k.a. arabs). Plus, why should we expect Israelis to be non racist against the people who DENY that Israel even exists? When Saddam was in power he had is own maps put in Iraqui schools that showed the land of Isreal belonged to the P.L.O. and other middle eastern nations. Also, you say that Israel is racist against arabs...well so is the rest of the western world.....just some thoughts.

like defending itself :eek:
Like building homes on other people's land :rolleyes:. I'm sorry you're so ignorant.

Also, you say that Israel is racist against arabs...well so is the rest of the western world.....just some thoughts.

Doesn't mean it is actually a good thing. And anyone who would have atleast an amount of brain capacity that goes beyond that of a spoon is not racist to anyone at all.

Like building homes on other people's land :rolleyes:. I'm sorry you're so ignorant.
Hey, you might disagree with them, but there's no need to be unnecessarily rude.

You can't exactly expect Israelis/Jews to be the most inviting people in the world....a millenia of persecution and slaughter would make me pretty paranoyed towards my former oppressors too (a.k.a. arabs).
A millenia, that's a new one on me. I love the way you generalise Arabs; it's a great start.
Plus, why should we expect Israelis to be non racist against the people who DENY that Israel even exists?
Because if they aren't, they are racists. :eek:
When Saddam was in power he had is own maps put in Iraqui schools that showed the land of Isreal belonged to the P.L.O. and other middle eastern nations.
What does that have to do with oppressed Palestinians?
Also, you say that Israel is racist against arabs...well so is the rest of the western world.....just some thoughts.
There you go again the the generalisation...just some thoughts.

Hey, you might disagree with them, but there's no need to be unnecessarily rude.

Well, I think that "no need" and "unnecessarily" are strikingly closely related. This could be to do with them having the same meaning.

WHich country has been built on anything BUT "shaky foundations"? We in North America plundered this land and pushed its inhabitants to the margins. You in Europe have a thousand years of war behind you.

But we've ben like this long enough that there is little dispute. There are fringe nationalists but in most of Europe we've pretty much agreed on how it'll work. It isn't always stable, Yugoslavia and Chechnya are the two big ones and the Basques in Spain and IRA in Britain/Ireland - but the majority of people agree with where the lines are drawn (or pencilled with the coming of the EU...).

Israel is a chunk of land which was taken by a combination of buyouts and terrorism, there's been 5 full-scale wars over it since 1945 and a constant low-grade violence as each side decides to heft a missile into the other's border or shoot someone from the opposite side of the wall (plus the suicide bombings of course). Neither side has entirely won yet - at least not from their POV and many palestinians feel they have nothing to lose.

The key point is that the thousand years ARE behind us. World War 2 eneded what few appetites there were for land-grabs.

Well, I think that "no need" and "unnecessarily" are strikingly closely related. This could be to do with them having the same meaning.
Very well, continue to be as rude as you please. You will find yourself quickly reported to the mods, who won't give you such a friendly warning.

Very well, continue to be as rude as you please. You will find yourself quickly reported to the mods, who won't give you such a friendly warning.

My point being that you stated the obvious...and that I hadn't been unnecessarily rude.

The key point is that the thousand years ARE behind us. World War 2 eneded what few appetites there were for land-grabs.Well then, maybe it's a bit premature to condemn Irael because of its 'foundations'. Give it another few hundred years, and you'll have alot more blood under the bridge, and most likely some stability too.

My point being that you stated the obvious...and that I hadn't been unnecessarily rude.
Actually, you were rude. And I'm not getting into a debate on semantics with you; there was nothing wrong with my statement, so don't try to hide behind that rather than simply take a good piece of advice.

Actually, you were rude. And I'm not getting into a debate on semantics with you; there was nothing wrong with my statement, so don't try to hide behind that rather than simply take a good piece of advice.

I never said that there was anything wrong with your statement; I said that you had stated the obvious. If your advice hadn't been so obvious, and had I not already been acting with due politeness, then I would have changed my behaviour.

I never said that there was anything wrong with your statement; I said that you had stated the obvious. If your advice hadn't been so obvious, and had I not already been acting with due politeness, then I would have changed my behaviour.
If you believe that calling someone ignorant of the facts because they disagree with you 'polite', I would hate to see you when you're rude.

Well then, maybe it's a bit premature to condemn Irael because of its 'foundations'. Give it another few hundred years, and you'll have alot more blood under the bridge, and most likely some stability too.

Or we can use our experience to try and reduce the bloodshed.

I hope we all remember how good Versailles was at preventing future war right? because the Palestinians are in a suspiciously similar looking boat. And sooner or later they'll lash out en masse and we'll get them electing a bunch of fanatics who want israel wiped off the... Oh, yeah. they just did that.

Oh and Philosophy/Comradeship, shut it will ya?

If you believe that calling someone ignorant of the facts because they disagree with you 'polite', I would hate to see you when you're rude.

He didn't disagree with me, he thought that I was claiming Israel's error was in defending herself. As such, I feel he misrepresented my statement.

Oh and Philosophy/Comradeship, shut it will ya?
When we are done. You don't have to 'listen'.

When we are done. You don't have to 'listen'.

No, but I'm more interested in the debate than you two arguing points of order. Which is currently taking up most of the thread.

"Thoughts on Israel..."

Excellent post. Thank you!

Isreal is definitely a land of contradictions and conundrums.

No, but I'm more interested in the debate than you two arguing points of order. Which is currently taking up most of the thread.
Then deal with the debate. As I say, you don't have to 'listen' to us; you are choosing to, and then complaining about it.

Isreal is definitely a land of contradictions and conundrums.And Wonder!

It's cool that Israel is a country founded for j00s and yet not a theocracy.

It's cool that Israel is a country founded for j00s and yet not a theocracy.

That could make it a 'genocracy', you know.

in regards to the 1st posts observation of Israels turning a desert into a garden, wonder how they did that, stealing water which isn't permitted by international law. here is a link to the water question if you would like to read morehttp://desip.igc.org/TheftOfWater.html

I recall seeing an news report on Israel drilling wells in the west bank to pump out the water to Israel, a neighbouring farmer to a drill site was digging a well on his property which was quickly destroyed by Israeli troops.

Anyone who holds up Israel as an example of Jewish ability is deluded, Israel succeeds because it steals the basics of life(water) from it's neighbours and 12 Billion dolars in US aid every year without which their economy would collapse.

Anyone who holds up Israel as an example of Jewish ability is deluded, Israel succeeds because it steals the basics of life(water) from it's neighbours and 12 Billion dolars in US aid every year without which their economy would collapse.
The two are not mutually exclusive at all. It is quite an enterprise, and they have succeeded, have they not?

And Wonder!

Never been there. Doesn't look like a place to visit unless you want to soak up the wonders of the Israeli military.

I think Most of us agree: Israel uses terrorism. (Israel is a terrorist state)
want me to take a Poll Asbena?
I absolutly agree with that

Maybe it's because of your 'Oh poor Jews' syndrome and can't see anything they do wrong. And I'm reaaaallly getting sick of the anti-semite getting thrown around whenever someone cricizes Israel.
very true, or the holocaust excuse, very annoying.

Like building homes on other people's land :rolleyes:. I'm sorry you're so ignorant.

I'd certainly feel more sympathy for Israel is they would stop expanding in the West Bank and killing Palestinian citizens in their hunt for terrorists. I suppose being rational and stopping their harsh methods won't give them the moral high ground against terrorists? That actually doing something to help end the poverty of the Palestinians won't help to give them options other then listening to radicals about how their pathetic situation is all the fault of the evil Zionists. But hey, firing a missle at a building to kill a few terrorists (and some bystanders) is easier I guess.

Like building homes on other people's land :rolleyes: . I'm sorry you're so ignorant.
I suppose that that could be construed as overly rude. I apologise if the person in question was insulted. :fluffle:

Never been there. Doesn't look like a place to visit unless you want to soak up the wonders of the Israeli military.
The Israeli military is populated by wonderously hot young men (and women). So they count too.